Mad, Sad and Bad with Paloma Faith - Mel B: Finding Love Again After Escaping Abuse

Episode Date: February 4, 2025

Mel B is an icon - she was always my favourite Spice Girl because I felt similar to her in some ways, so I was over the moon to invite her over to my house to chat...Mel's energy and zest for life exudes off her but there was a time in her life, in an abusive relationship, where she was a shadow of her former strong and powerful self. However, beyond that sadness, we talk about the madness of Spice Girls euphoria and how she is an absolute bad-ass - the reason I loved her so much in the first place.Spending time with Mel was everything I hoped it would be - chaotic, hilarious and moving.And if you or anyone you know has been affected by anything mentioned in our conversation, please visit www.womensaid.org.uk/womens-aid-directoryIf you'd like to watch Mel in Bear Hunt, head to Netflix now!—Find us on: Instagram / TikTok / YouTube—Credits:Producer: Jemima RathboneAssistant Producer: Magda CassidyEdit Producer: Pippa BrownEditor: Shane O'ByrneVideo: Jake Ji & Grisha NikolskyVideo Editor: Josh BennettOriginal music: BUTCH PIXYSocial Media: Laura CoughlanMarketing: Eleanore BamberExec Producer: Jemima RathboneExec Producers for Idle Industries: Dave Granger & Will MacdonaldSenior Exec Producer: Holly Newson Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Paloma Faith and this is my show. Each week I welcome someone fantastic into my home to talk about what makes them mad, sad and bad. Roll recording! How glamorous are you, gorgeous. I'm just at home and I wore my ode to the Spice Girls' Boat. Oh, I love it. Come in.

Thank you for inviting me to your home. It's chaos. It's a proper mum's house. Well, I've got three kids. I'm going to say, shall I take your coat, but you'd have nothing left on. Nothing underneath it. No, I wasn't going to put a top on, but I thought, nah. This is cute. What's your name? She's Cookie.

Hi, Cookie. She comes everywhere with me, because we came down from a leaf today. Emotional Support Animal. That's what I say. Even though she's sick, more than I do. I think you're my emotional support animal. What? Come in.

She was a member of the biggest girl band in history, the Spice Girls. She's been an actress, a presenter, a TV judge, a solo artist, and is patron of women's AIDS, becoming an MBA for her services to survivors of domestic violence. She's resilient and strong, both mentally and physically, and right now is reminding us of that fact

as she graces our screens in Netflix's Bear Hunt. But to me, she was always my favourite Spice Girl from the start, which is why I've always been too awestruck to try and make friends with her. Stop it. Because she once invited me to the gym to go and work out together, and I hate the gym, and didn't want to embarrass me.

I harass myself, so I didn't go because I thought she'd put me to shame. But today, I'm lucky enough to have her with me, not on a treadmill. It's Mel B. And I'm happy to be here in your lovely home. I love it. I know. And actually, I think you're one of the very few people who keeps me entertained because we're both ADHD. I was just saying that in the car.

I was saying that in the car. I'm like, I don't know how this is going to go because Ploma's going to start talking and then I'm going to start talking and it's all good at it anyway. That's what this podcast is about. There you go. Good. But yeah, we were just talking about the fact that you've just come from Leeds.

Yeah? And I used to go to dance school there. You went to the same one as me. Northern School, Contemporary Dance. And we're both in trouble. I was always in trouble because the head lady... Did you get checked out? Yeah, she used to always be yelling at me.

Saying that I was too loud. And then one day she was quite mean to me. She said, you know, girls can keep their legs far higher than yours. As if that's the most important thing in the world. Also, I got sent to her office because I sent some pictures of the same. Simpsons having a threesome to the caretaker.

And then she said that it, because it was through the portal of the college, she said she was going to get rid of me. That is funny. That's funny. I don't think. Yeah, it's my dog. She's just making herself at home. Yeah, you do what you want.

She's trying to find a little spot. Do you want to get in? Honestly, what? But you know what? It wouldn't be, you wouldn't notice with all this going on, would you? I love this. I just decorated my front room with leper print and a black leopard print.

So you do like leper print? Yeah. Because I was going to ask you before about the Spice Girls thing like, did you guys style yourself? Did you choose that that was your thing? No, I've been obsessed with leper print for years. I don't know if you think this is offensive that everything in my life's animal print.

I love this. And that I'm rubbing it in and I've got the bits on and everything. But I was like, no, this is actually me. And that is me. That is me. This is really good because I only got away with leopard print, the wallpaper in my front room. I thought, if I did a leopard print sofa, that would be good.

But I had to choose between one or the other because my partner was like, we don't really know what it's going to look like, and this is our front room. It might give me a headache. That's what this is like my mind. So, you know, when you originally came out in the Spice Girls and you were called Scary Spice, right? Do you, that insinuate.

that you were mad and unpredictable. Do you resent that name? I don't think it did. I mean, if you... What did they mean by scary? If you knew me, so for a start, all those names was given to us by a lady journalist. He couldn't remember our names.

So it was like, oh, well, she's in a tracksuit, that one looks sporty, she's in a nice little dress, that's posh. I always felt a bit protective of you when I heard scary, so I was like, she's not scary, she's like me. Let me tell you. So the reason why he said scary to me is because, So, for example, we'd be doing an interview, I'd go, now interview me.

Yeah. So I would make that person feel like a bit scared. So that's why I got called scary. So if I was in an interview with the girls and I didn't like what the interview was saying to the girls, I'd go, stop it. Yeah, but to me that's not scary. That's like the whole embodiment of like what you guys represented

was like girl power and strength. And it wasn't scary. It was more like strong spies. I think if you'd have met me back then, I was a bit scary. I remember we went into William Morris, and we were singing our songs, and I got on the table and stamped on all their pieces of paper because they were looking at their pieces of paper instead of looking at us.

I've done that. I've been... So you're scary, too. I'm scary. That's why I was like, stop calling her scary. I'm not scary. No, but the thing, I think to the normal, I mean, what is normal? To the normal person, that can be quite intimidating or a bit scary. So that's why I got it.

I mean, a lot of people, some people even say, oh, she's cold scary because she's mixed race. Or she's, you know, or she wears animal print. I've been wearing animal print since I was 12. You're born in it. Yeah, from when I used to watch Coronation Street, I saw Bet Lynch behind the bar with a leopard print bustier. I said to my mum, when I get older, that's all I'm going to wear.

And that is all I wear. Do you think that is all I wear? Sexy. Tell me about a time that you've been mad. Because we say mad, like there was a lot of madness around the spice girls. It was a proper hysteria. Like people would run after your cars. People would be going like, oh my God, oh my God.

Like, I've never had that in my position. No, haven't. Yeah. When I got told about this, I went, I'll have people. Well, I'll have you. But you've had like hordes and hordes. You've had like the proper idea of what it is to be a pop star,

which I guess is mad. Like if we're talking about madness, like hysteria of it. I think if you're a solo artist, you would feel the madness. Because there's five of us, you don't take that personally. And, you know, the eye of our storm is really calm. You've got five girls from all different walks of life that are writing their own music. You know, I was doing all the choreography, dressing how they wanted to dress. So for us, we were just having a right laugh.

It didn't feel like mad. And then, you know, when fans would scream and stuff, you don't take it like, oh, my God, we're famous. It's like, oh, God, look at what we're doing. It's all girl power. It's not like we're talking about tits and ass. We're talking about something that is fundamentally supporting and giving, like, power to women.

And it did, and we're all just so grateful for it. Oh, awesome, good. We are. Like, you contributed so much to culture. Like, when you said that, you know, you would come on this. I was just like, there's nobody better. Like, just honestly.

And then I turn up late, but I did drive five and a half hours from these. And I'm sitting on one of my favorite prints right here. You're better than Beyonce. With you? You're better than Beyonce for me. Stop it. And these are great. Where do you get these from?

These are my Spice Girls homage boots. They're great. They love the trashy websites, that's why. Yeah, do you know what? So we used to perform in these. They were buffaloes. So they were like the ankle boots, and I did try a pair of them on the other day because I've moved. Well, I've moved into this farm.

I never thought I'd be able to buy my own house considering what I went through, but some of the story. We're coming back to that. So I was going through all my spy stuff, because you know some stuff comes back into fashion, and I dressed myself and I really liked it. So I found out some vintagey leopard print stuff, and I was like, let me just see if these leper-printed buffalo shoes had fit. And I walked down my hallway, and I was like, how did I do that? I was on stage running.

Stilts. Four months pregnant, running in them. That's mad. That is mad, see? But also, it's like, do you think motherhood's a kind of madness in a way? Oh, I think everybody goes mad when they become a mom, 100%. And you have that knowing thing, don't you, when you become a parent, where other, that mothers have with each other,

where you know that you've been to that level of insanity. And that pain and that worry and that guilt and all that stuff. But you know what? Talking about motherhood, I've never been invited to those motherhood groups. I think because my first introduction to motherhood,

I was single parent. So nobody wanted me to be invited. When you did it, the heyday of that, like, it wasn't, you were one of the first people that would be like, that would just be like, yeah, I've got kids. Yeah, well, neither cherry did. Remember, I needed a cherry?

Yeah, yeah. It was very rare. Yeah. Now, I think pretty much everyone. just does it or they go on pregnant. But then when you get pregnant, you get invited for like coffee and you drop your kids off. I didn't have that either.

And, you know, you go to Starbucks. I never got invited. No, me neither. Yeah. And I felt quite lonely about it. Yeah, I didn't like that. I thought, what's wrong with music? Because I'm single parent or I'm not going to steal your husbands.

No, thank you. Yeah, you can keep them. They're all useless. Exactly. I felt like I was not mad angry. I felt like I was mad insane. for quite a long time because I was in a very abusive

10-year marriage and there was lots of coercive control and manipulations and so, you know, when I would think, right, I know where I've put my diamond earrings I know that they're there at the side of the bed and then he would move them but then blame me

and then it would be your irresponsible oh look I've found them in the fridge and I'd be going... And making you think, am I mad? Yeah, then I'd question myself. Yeah. Maybe I did put them in the fridge. So a lot of that went on

and I literally felt like I was going mad. Yeah. And I had to, almost where I would double-check myself and I was doing, America's Got Talent, so I'd go to work and be filming for hours and hours, get home, and then things would start and things would be shifted, almost like you were living in a fantasy world.

I know that that wasn't there before and I know where my coffee mug is because I'm quite routine and I like things, even though my place is always came, There's certain things where you know you've put them there. So it was really... It chips away at you. It was really mind-boggling.

So I had to, especially when I left that 10-year relationship, I had to really, like, learn how to trust my own instincts because there's so much self-doubt, because for God knows how long, you've, well, 10 years, you'd be made to feel whatever you thought was completely the opposite. Moving on to said, you know, you were just speaking about your relationship. And I think it is a really sad thing. And you've obviously done so much work around that

and been awarded. Yeah, and NME about it. And actually, I think it's really important. Like my, I grew up in a household with, well, I didn't grow up actually. My mum took me out of one. But I spoke to her about how we were going to speak about this. What I think the thing that's quite important when speaking about, that is that people often say who've not been in that situation. Why didn't you just leave?

Why didn't you just see? That's always the first thing. Yeah. And I laugh about it, but it is a question that does make sense. They've not experienced it, have they? Yeah. No. So when you talk about the dripping tap of abuse, just as a metaphor for the bigger picture, it's like, it's going, it's in your psyche, isn't it? You don't wake up one morning and go, right, I'm going to have a relationship for an abuser, let me go and find one. Yeah. But abusers, they find it. It's, they find a, it's, you know, but abusers, they find you. They find you when you're either at your most vulnerable or when you're either at your most happiest and

it's a challenge to them to see how they can get you and how they can then start to manipulate it and it does happen it doesn't happen just all at once. They love bomb you. You know they show up like your night of shining armour and then slowly over time

it starts to you know they show their true colours. And it is quite often from people I've spoke to stronger characters that end up in those circumstances. People always think it's the meek. Yeah, no, it's not. But it isn't. Because to them, they want to be able to have your lifestyle,

your money, to be able to control you, what you wear and what you say. And I think when I started speaking out about it back in 2015, coercive control was only just then prominent. And then I brought my book out in 2017. And nobody was talking about it. And I was like, but the statistics and the, what's going on are so high.

Three women a week get killed by their current partner or like ex-partner. And those numbers are not going down, they're going up. So it's an epidemic. So I'm like, why is no one talking about it? And then I started doing like lots of promotion for my book. A lot of places didn't want to even publish the book. They didn't want me to talk about it when I was being interviewed.

And then I would do pretty big interviews, whether it be, I won't name names. But then that person would go, I'm so glad you're talking about it because I was in an abusive relationship. And then everyone comes out the woodwork. No, but then I'm like, well, why are you leaving me to talk about it? Why can't you help too? Because nobody would think that you had gone through it. Let's stick together.

Yeah, yeah. But no. And I think slowly now, especially with things like, you know, Dirty John, the TV shows that are out, and I've done a lot of consulting for, like, Cenders and Coronation Streets, because I wanted to get the abuse, how it actually, how to show it where it actually is very, very real.

And now because of those shows, it's more of a conversation, you know, because I think it should be, because you want to be able to teach your kids what a healthy relationship looks like. And if you don't start with your kids... Do you think you could recognise an abuser now? Yeah.

Do you think there are signs? Yeah. What would you say you look out for? It's not just recognising it. It's that feeling of not feeling safe. There's something about that person, even though they can be really charming, but there's something really and savour.

I've had a relationship not that long ago where they seemed so lovely and nobody knew why I got out of it. But I listened to my gut. My gut was saying this isn't safe. This is too much. And when you're in love, those red flags, you just can't see them.

But then when you look back, it's like, oh my God. That was weird that he showed up when I was going to the airport there. That's weird. He bumped him to me at my regular coffee shop. Yeah, or I was at a restaurant with a friend and then he was there. Weird.

And said, and then didn't come in. And we just took a picture of the outside of the restaurant. Weird. But you know what? Time out. These abusers, they all do the same thing. So they have all got this certain hand guidebook that they all do. Because I talk with a lot of survivors.

And they all do the same things. Hide in the car keys or making you feel like a bad mum or you're not responsible. So if they're all working from the same book because an abuser does the same thing day in, day out. And then if you leave them, then they'll go on to abuse somebody else. So my point is, if we know what they do and how they do it, we should be the smarter ones, because at the end of the day, it's predominantly happening to women.

And it's our problem as women. It's happening to us. So we have to be able to stop it, because if we don't stop it, they're not going to stop. And so the sadness, because we're talking about the sadness, was it for the person you lost? Yeah. and that I had to gain back.

But in a way that was years, God, because I've been out of that relationship now for eight years, I would say it took me. And I did go mad when I left also because you just think, how did this happen to me? Ten years, what did that go? The sadness was I had to build myself back up and I was like, that's so sad that me as a person

that happened to me. Because you were stripped of all your money, You didn't have a place to live. Confidence. Because sometimes people say, oh, it's easier to get out of an abusive relationship if you have a career. Because, you know, like harder if you're dependent on the man.

But all abusers will strip you of that whether you've got one or not. And they'll blackmail you and they'll have pictures. And you'll feel like you can't come back. Yeah. I mean, I went back six or seven times because where was I going to go? Who was I going to tell?

You know, it's drilled into my head. No one's going to believe me. You know, I'm just a used-up whatever with kids just because she was a spice girl. But he made you think you were that. Oh, you would tell me that. Yeah. Constantly. So then you think, well, yeah, I haven't spoken to my mum in years because he's isolated me from that relationship. So when you actually walk away, you are absolutely exhausted, but you're so sad. And then comes a bit of anger, but then that gets overshadowed by the guilt. And then especially with kids, you've got to, you know, how could I have

allowed this to happen? Then you have to remind yourself, I didn't want this in my life. No. I loved him, you know, and this is what he did to me and my family and my animals. Yeah, I think it's really bad that society, as women, we still blame ourselves.

Like, everyone blames the victim. And there's this idea of shame. Well, I think that's us, that's what we do and that's one thing. I think it's also social. We have to break that mould. And I'm constantly... With this case that's just come out of Giselle Petticoat,

She just, her husband, drugged a rape. Oh, no, yeah, and he got his friends coming over. Yeah, and hundreds of people. And with that whole case coming out, I love what she's done where she said, I'm not going to be the ashamed one. The perpetrators should be ashamed. And when you're in the thick of it, you can't do that.

But even now, I still get bouts of, like, doubt and shame and guilt. That doesn't ever go away. You just have to know how to quiet. in that voice and work on the tools to remind yourself that actually you should be the one to be ashamed of yourself and you're still doing it. But that takes time and that is a journey that I'm going to have to go on for the rest of my life because I can't unsee what I've seen. I can't undo what's been done to me.

I've got the scars and everything to prove it. I'm just sad for you. I just think it's awful that happened to you. It is. It is. And it shouldn't happen to anybody, but that's the reality of life. Life is shit sometimes, but at least I'm using the crap, sad shittness that's happened to me to raise awareness, to enforce my kids that you don't want to go through what we went through.

You know, be assured of yourself, be confident yourself and trust your gut. When you get that feeling, oh, something's not right, walk away, because if you don't walk away, you'll end up dying. Congratulations on your engagement. Oh, thank you. That shows, though, that you can not give up hope. That's one thing. When you're in the midst of trying to piece your life back together,

you think, I've just lived a horror nightmare. Are there any good people in the world? Because I fell in love with this person. I thought he genuinely was a kind, caring man. And then you think, well, maybe everybody's a bit like that. You don't have any sense of anything, yeah. But, yeah, my partner, I've known since. since I was young, and he knew my dad really, really well.

So it's nice to be with somebody that's from my neck of the woods, knew my dad before he died, and it just feels like home. And I never thought, I never wanted that feeling, because I didn't think it would ever exist again because I thought I was in love and look what happened to me for 10 years. So I wasn't planning on any of that. If anything, I was very anti-a-relationship. I've got my vibrators.

I know how to take care of myself. Thank you very much. So I was like, that's the last thing. I'm trying to repair myself and repair all these broken relationships with my mum and my sister and make sure my kids are okay. That's my priority. And it still is my priority. It's just he was always there.

He wasn't giving up. I was speaking about it with a friend the other day, how interesting it is that when you're younger, what you think you want is very different to when you arrive at like, after a bit of life experience, single mom, because I'm a single mom now as well. And it's like, what I gravitate towards and what I like is definitely not what I would have gone for in my 20.

And actually it's more simple and it's calmer and it's kinder. Exactly. Kinder and... Yeah. You know, that's like me because, you know, people think, oh, spice girl, sky spicy, but you're out partying all the time and doing this. I'm like, you should see me on my day off.

I'm in a wonsie, a leopard print onesie. With a chicken on your lap. Yeah, no, but then I go up to the field and I spend all day with my chickens and my goats that I've got this little shade. that I've got Union Jack and Leferprint in from Tor. And I just sit there and I just stare at my animals and just be by myself and I love it.

Yeah, it seems therapeutic. There's always been a bit of that in me because I like the silence and the stillness because when I'm out and about, I'm like this. So you can't be like this all the time. You get overwhelmed and you burn out. You need to chill out. You need some space sometime.

Completely. But wait, what did we start talking about and then we go on to that? That's your fault. Sorry. Two ADHD people walk into a bar. Don't leave till the following Sunday. Where are we going?

We're going shopping. When you're older, and you've had a bit of experience, what you look for in a relationship is very different to what. Yeah, but I was actually, I had a point there, what I was on wanting to pick up with you, because my kids, they find it really strange that I always say to them, I want you to fall in love and get your hands. heartbroken as soon as possible.

And my kids are like, well, why? I said, because that's when you actually start matured and becoming the woman or the person that you're meant to be because nobody can get over that first love, that first heartbreak, no matter what your friends say and what your mum and dad says, you have to just get over it. And I remember when my first love, I got, I experienced that heartbreak, it took me, felt like eternity. I thought my life can't go on. I love him.

And then one day I was fine. and then I started to understand myself what makes me sad and mad and happy because you start to learn about yourself. So a heartbreak is on the menu for everyone to learn about themselves. But a good heartbreak, not an abusive one. No, we don't want abusers. And if anybody has been effective,

we're going to put a link in the bio to Women's Aid, who you're a... Patron of, yeah. Yeah, patron of. So that would be great. So I've got, yeah, they're moving me on because I've actually got a rehearsal for a gig that I'm doing.

tonight and I don't know what the hell I'm doing. Oh my God, we should be talking. I know, but I wanted to talk to you so much. I'm at the Albert Hall tonight. Oh, just at the Albert Hall tonight. Jesus. Oh, if I wasn't going back to these, I wanted to come. You can if you want.

How many of that you're doing one night? Just one night. It's a Christmas gig. Oh, I don't know that. So tell me quickly about your new show before we get onto the stuff. Bear Hunt. Yeah, do you love it?

I mean, I love anything, Bear Grills. You know, I've done his show many, many times before. And you're really physical, aren't you? Well, I'm just a bit hyperactive, and I don't like to, I don't like to not win. I don't like to lose, but I like to just give it my all, you know, put everything into it. So when you told me about the show, I was like, oh, that sounds really interesting. I didn't actually realize that you have to really focus and actually taking the rules and understand everything. Rules are awful.

Because my brain goes scatterers. By the time they're going to be. get to rule six, I forgot on what the rules are. So, but that actually worked in my advantage because the first challenge, so you go in this bear pit, right, you've got an hour to try and get tools and equipment and get out. Well, I forgot the rules, went completely the wrong way, and then he's hunting you. So you have to get out, so you hear this big, and then you have to go, right, I've already been going for about 10 minutes, and now he can get us at any point, and this is massive, like,

acres and acres of land, I got out by accident in 21 minutes. Which is amazing. With the right tools. Not following the rules. Not following the rules. But that's the story of our lives, I think. If you don't follow the rules, you get there quicker. Yeah, and then when I found out what the rules were, I didn't get out.

Yeah. They caught me. They're rubbish. It caught me. So tell me a time that you have been bad, and it can be badass. I am badass. I am badass. I am badass.

Yes. I am. I actually am. No, I am. Because I have to remind myself of that because I'm a person that is very caring and very giving, but now more than ever. And I was particularly like that when I was younger. You know, I don't stand for shit anymore. When I was younger, I was a little bit more aggressive with it, hence the name, scary spry. But I've now know how to just calm it down, but I say it in a nicer kind of way. But I still does stand for shit. That's boundaries, isn't it? You've got your boundaries. But I've always been like that from going through all that abuse and stuff. You have to remind yourself of what you were. You know what I mean? And what I want to mature into? Because I think things are certain choices that you have to make. And I was like, well, I really like that part of myself. I just need to smooth it around the edges a bit.

But I'm northern too. So northern's a very direct to just say it as it is. Because I think I'm an honorary northern. Because you've lived in Chapel Town. I know. Well, from Hackney to Chapel Town. sort of the same. It is similar. And, you know, when I moved back here in 2019, I live with my mum, my mum's one of seven, so I've got so many aunties and uncles and nephews and nieces,

really northern tribe of women. So I, and I... It's your mum barenance. Well, I think she's a bit rude sometimes. Because I put my leather fruit wallbed rub, and she went, oh, that looks horrible. You've closed the room right off. And then I put the black leather, oh, it looks better now, but I mean, God, I'm like, all right, mum, thank you very much. I wouldn't do that. Don't do that. When they say like, you're, they brand you're a bad girl

and they're like, oh, she always breaks the rules or whatever. Do you think, because I get that as well, do you think it's just ADHD and it's not really a rule break? No, I think rules, well, for the start, rules are there to be broken. But if a rule doesn't make sense, then I'm not going to go with that rule. As long as the rule makes me feel okay, I'm not hurting anybody, then I'll do it. How do you feel about authority? If someone tells you, don't do this, does it make you want to do it?

It depends why. it is. More often than not, I would want to do it, but it depends. Because they said no, but now, I'm a bit more mature. Really? What's that like? I don't know. Well, I keep on getting reminded.

I'm going to be 50 next year, so I better start at some point, I don't I? I think just the eternal child thing's the best. That's what I'm like, and I've always been like that. For example, so I've got this farm, so I've got a few things I need to get done. And I've got this thing, and I've always had it with my family. When somebody comes out of the toilet, you go, boo, and you scare them. It's childish. I know, and it's silly, but I always do it.

So, the lady that's been helping with the house, she's a bit jumping. I think she's a bit scared of my protection jumps, but they're outside in the kennel. I thought it was Julie coming out of the toilet, so I've gone, and I filmed it, and I went, boo. It was one of the builders, and he grabbed his heart, and he had to sit down. So we had to get him some water, and I thought, I need to grow up. I've got to stop doing this. I don't think you should ever grow up. And I did it again to a different builder.

Can't stop doing it. I think that internal child, it's so, I mean, kids remind me of that too. It's that no boundaries and it's all carefree. Do you think you ever, when you were raising your kids, did you ever put them into that black and white thing of like, be good or be, or that was bad? No, no, no. And even now my 17-year-old, he's like, oh, I want to get, was it extinction?

Is it extinction? A game. No, I want to get... Not a merit, but a... Oh, distinction. Extinction means you never exist again. No, not that. I've got part of the word, right.

That's why you're all the time. So you wanted to get that, but you got a merit. And he was really angry at himself, and I said, that's good enough. It's not life or death. Yeah. You know what I mean? Carry on.

Yeah, because now will really ask you in the end with results, do they? Well, I didn't finish school. And you did fine. And I did fine. It's like... Better than fine. Sorry.

But then I did go back to school and I got an honorary doctor. Yeah, amazing. Do you ever done anything that you think was quite bad that you regret doing? No. You don't regret anything.

I'm sure to other people it would be bad, but I think regrets are stupid. Tell me why? Because at the end of the day, you've done it. You can't take it back. But then, I guess, going forward, you just try not to do it again? Well, maybe you do it again, but in a different way, or with a smile,

or say, I'm sorry at the end of it. If you're, as long as you're not hurting, deliberately causing somebody physical and emotional pain, maybe just warm them next time. Just be like, I might hurt you. I might offend you. I don't think I'm a bad person. I don't think you're a bad person. I don't either.

So if you have done something in somebody else's eyes, that's bad. I just think as women we often feel bad about sir. Oh, fuck that. No. I'm so glad because this is inspiring for me. Because I've spent so long in that world feeling bad. And you've gone from that. Yeah.

And you have to remind yourself when you're a kid, do you know, you... Do you sleep well now? Oh, yeah. I think it's the feeling bad that stops you sleeping well. Well, you have to turn your brain off. You have to do NSDR. Stop lame there thinking of... What do you do?

Non-sleep, deep rest, NSDR. Because I like facts. I like things. Because when I came out of my abuse, I know how my brain would have been rewired and it would have been triggering trauma. That's why I did a trauma-enforced course at Leeds University and I passed.

The things that you can do were to rewire yourself and set new things for it to be kinder and nicer and to get rid of that worry and triggering and trauma and depression. I love that, though, about you. And so that leads us nicely onto what makes you glad,

which rhymes, but I think, what are you most glad about? today because you've spoken like about this full circle thing where when I hear it I'm just like you I'm so in awe of you. Oh. I really am because you know it's really difficult as well I think a lot of people don't realize that everyone's lives are just completely nightmareish at times behind the scenes and it takes so much effort to go and put a brave face on and be the person. But I love that part. I look that part but then I really like you know. I'll just pretend I've lost my phone

and I'll just go and sit with the animals for hours. So you're glad about the animals? Oh my God. It's my new relationship. It's my sanctuary being with those animals. And doing Bear Hun, I was in Costa Rica for, God, like four or five weeks. As soon as I got home, I went straight up to see the animals and not my partner, all the dogs, all the kids.

Also, I've just got to go and check on Chalin' the chickens. Hold on a minute. I didn't even go in the house. I went straight up there. That's so nice. You have to come and visit. I'd love to. Because now I've got a dining room table. Well, you've been in my house, but I'll have to have you around properly for dinner when it's not chaos. No, I like chaos. Because I like cooking. You do?

I love it. That's good. I always happen to meet really good people and they can all really cook. Because I can't. So I'm like, check. Well, I'll cook for you. I'm going to make you my friend now. So thank you so much for coming on. And I'm really sorry it's a bit rushed, but I've got to go to the Albert Hall where you've been. Come on, come on. This is more important. The Albert Hall, get off.

For your show. Get off. Go on. Do a shout. Go on. But thank you for coming. Thank you. You're gorgeous.

Really lovely. You're really nice. You are. No, you are. You're really special. And I don't really like people that much. No, it's hard. I think people are a bit weird.

Most people are a bit shifting. Yeah. No, I agree. You're not. We're fine. We are who we say we are here. That's the best bit. Exactly.

Bring the doorbell. Well, wasn't that great? All of the links of everything we mentioned in the show can be found in the episode description. Oh, and while you're there, why not subscribe and follow the show too? See you all next time. Later's potatoes.