Mad, Sad and Bad with Paloma Faith - Munroe Bergdorf: Trans Women Are Not A Threat

Episode Date: June 23, 2025

I have always admired Munroe Bergdorf and love putting the world to rights with her when everything feels like it’s going up in flames around us. I wish there were more people like her in the world!Munroe opens up about the dangers of apathy, how she’s staying hopeful, the impact that current world politics are having on the trans community and the importance of both speaking up AND speaking out. We also chat about perfectionism, her new book and her relationship with her Mum – plus, my Mum joins us too!I adored speaking to Munroe – she gives me so much hope during tricky times – but I’m slightly worried she’s going to be better friends with my Mum than me now...Hope you all enjoy this episode x#MUNROEBERGDORF #PALOMAFAITH #MADSADBAD—Find us on: Instagram / TikTok / YouTube—Credits:Producer: Jemima RathboneAssistant Producer: Magda CassidyVideo: Grisha Nikolsky & Josh BennettSound: Shane O'BryneMix: Shane O'BryneOriginal music: BUTCH PIXYSocial Media: Laura CoughlanExec Producer for JamPot: Jemima RathboneExec Producers for Idle Industries: Dave Granger & Will Macdonald Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Paloma Faith and this is my show. One, two, three, four. Each week, I welcome someone fantastic into my home to talk about what makes them mad, sad and bad. Roll recording. Are your shoes on or shoes off household? Well, you can keep them on because you're... Matchy, matchy, matchy, matchy, matchy.

Beautiful. This one? Gorgeous. The big room. She's an activist at the forefront of the trans movement speaking against injustices, being strong and a brave voice in what can at times be a very scary place. She's a model walking catwalks in London and New York Fashion Weeks. She's a writer working as contributing editor at Vogue and written two books, Transitional and Out This Year, Talk to Me.

She won Cosmopolitan's Changemaker of the Year in 2018, becoming the first transgender person to feature on the cover of the magazine. But to me, she's someone I can always be found in the corner of a celebrity event with, trying to put the world to rights in a sea of superficiality. It's rare to meet someone at those events who even follows the news at these things. And she's someone I can rely on for a laugh too. It's the amazing Monroe Bergdorf. Oh, that's such a nice introduction. I was thinking, how did we meet?

And I think it was either sat on the front row of a runway show or in like a dark corner on the hallway of like a Vogue party or like a magazine party. Yeah, I think I'll always grab you and be like, I love what you said about. I totally agree. It's going straight into it straight away. Exactly. I've got the worst face, by the way. I'm both the most obvious person and like a vault as well.

So sometimes depending on how I feel, you can either really see how I feel on the outside or I'm like just kind of like a poker face. I'm not really sure what I'm giving. right now. You're giving wonderful, like truly wonderful, yeah, isn't she? Like, I'm just like, I just want everyone to be like this. So firstly, I think we can both agree that the world has gone entirely mad and it's a scary thing. Yeah, mad, sad and bad. But yeah, it feels like a constant process of not allowing yourself to feel furious all the time, to stay somewhat soft and present, and not be consumed with all of the madness going on and not to allow it to drive you mad. I think that that's the thing that I constantly feel like I'm pushing myself to bear in mind

that all of these conversations, whether or not it's what's happening in the Middle East, or what's happening to trans people or disability rights, there's such a constant stream of things to be furious about. And it's, it's really difficult. It's difficult to retain your hope for the world. And especially, I can't even imagine being a parent to, you know, worry about the future. Like, what does the future hold for all of us? It's scary. It's terrifying. And I was thinking about that when I was getting ready to sit down and talk with you because I think we've both kind of got this idea that somehow we have a responsibility to use our plans. And platforms to speak. For sure. Yeah, it's really difficult to both be an advocate for what's

affecting you and also what's affecting other people because there's so many different experiences in this world and they all deserve a platform. They all deserve the spotlight. They all deserve equal attention. But as a human being, you can't give equal attention to every single different way to be a human being. And that's what I write about in Talk to Me. that I see activism as a responsibility to myself and also to the world, but you need to understand your limits. You need to understand that you can only do so much, but it's important that you do do something.

Yeah, and what do you think makes you feel like you have the responsibility to speak for others? I think if you don't feel like you've got a responsibility to speak for others in support of others, you should really ask yourself why. I think that a lot of people have become numb as a coping mechanism. A lot of people don't think that a certain issue affects them because they see other people as different to them.

Or maybe they don't understand the way that the world actually functions that all of our human rights are entwined with others. So I try to get people to think about, say, disability rights and what we're seeing in terms of the benefits being cut. Any one of us could become disabled tomorrow. Via a traumatic experience. whatever, yeah. Or someone that we love could become disabled.

There needs to be an infrastructure if that happens and it is happening every single day. And it's just understanding that you may view somebody as different to you, but you may become that person, you may become in proximity to someone like that or you, you know, it's not just disability. It's, you know, it could be navigating poverty. It could be anything.

and the more that we support each other and the more that we support the systems and the infrastructure that supports us, the better ultimately the world's going to be. So I tried to think about the power of the people rather than supporting the power as we know it and just making sure that people understand that human rights are a universal thing

and they should be upheld for everybody. I wish everyone was like you. No. I do. No, oh my God. I think it's such a special out. intense world. I just think it's such a, like, I don't really understand how anyone can't have that

outlook. I think that a lot of, you know, we live in a capitalist world where hyperindividuality has become such a mainstay, where people don't think necessarily outside of their bubble, that you just think, as long as my house is okay. But if your house is untouched, but the whole street's on fire, then what use is that? You still live in this street that's, like, on fire. in your home, but you've just hoarded all of the resources for yourself, but then sooner or late, those resources are going to run out, and then you're in trouble. So I try to get people to think a little bit outside of their immediate circumstance. Yeah, and I actually think this house is on fire globally.

It is on fire. But because the fire's over there, people don't think that it affects them. And so how do you cope with the madness that is the world? Because there are so many. It's like there are countless issues. You know, when you talk about disability benefits, like there are many people around me that are on disability benefits and are scared. So it is, you know, like when we talk about madness,

it is almost at times a duty for us to fight for groups that aren't necessarily our own groups. So I always wonder why people say to me, oh, you're not trans person. Why would you do that? or you're not black, why would you fight for anti-racism? You know, it's like, no, I'm a human being and have empathy. And if I don't understand something just by nature as a person, I'm quite comfortable about asking about it.

Absolutely. So I think quite often there are conversations that aren't had or, you know, like there might be people watching today who don't relate to your experience and feel maybe sheepishy, or not even aggressive about it, but just don't, like, oh, it doesn't concern me because I don't understand that, you know, like as a trans woman,

and then asking themselves, well, why would I get involved in that? Because it doesn't. But I think what's the kind of underlying, like the poignant message in what we're saying is like, if not you now, then maybe you tomorrow. Absolutely. Well, apathy is the,

most dangerous thing that we're facing right now. Yes, we have this fascist force that's coming in, whether or not it's Donald Trump or the threat of reform. The apathy that we're seeing to the suffering of people that are perceived to be different to us is not, you know, I'm being apathetic to the suffering of trans people. I'm being apathetic to the suffering of disabled people. People are being apathetic to the suffering of other human beings that they perceive to be different to them. So they've kind of reckoned with themselves that it doesn't matter or that it isn't as close. Yeah. So in doing that, it allows the fascism to creep closer and closer and closer,

picking off the communities that are perceived to be not as cared about by society or seen to be different, wholly different human beings from the majority of society until it gets to the majority. And then by that point, it's created a culture where so much suffering has been enabled. And you've become numb. Yeah. Desensitization. And there's been a precedent set.

So it's almost like, so you have allowed it for all of these people, but suddenly it's not okay when it's you. But it's a creeping dial and it's only a matter of time before it reaches your door. So it's really important to speak up for every single kind of injustice when you see it, if you can, at very least, understand it and why it's happening and stay abreast of why it's happening and do what you can with what you have. Yeah, thank you. I hope more people will listen to this and start and read your book about the conversation. Well, I wrote it for a young adult audience.

When I was in my young adult years, I really felt like I didn't have a grasp on why I was being treated, how I was being treated. I didn't understand the world or how it worked or why other people didn't care about certain things, didn't understand why it was difficult to speak to certain people about certain things. So it's really framed around difficult conversations. I've spent the majority of my career having them.

So I feel like I'm somewhat well placed to give on some advice to a younger audience, young adult audience, about how they can have conversations with people that disagree with them, how they can have conversations that maybe they feel daunted by, and also just close the gap between us because we really often want the same thing, but we're coming at it from completely different angles or completely different lived experiences.

So, yeah, I think it's also recognizing parts of ourselves and each other and just not seeing ourselves as adversaries, but rather... What unites her? Mm. Mm, comrades. Yeah. Tell me about something that made you sad.

Hmm. I think the last time that I was really sad was... I was on the phone to my mom and... You know, when you just want to call your mom and vent? And sometimes there's no one else in the world

who is going to understand the private you. You know, the... The... that only your mom will have seen as you grow up and the patterns that you've taken through into adulthood. And she was really obviously very concerned with what's happening in our country in terms of trans rights and the attack on our community, but also my brother lives in Canada.

So the relationship with the US and Canada is pretty bad right now. So obviously that's going to affect my brother. And I could just hear in her voice just a... real sadness that I hadn't heard before a concern for the world as well as, you know, us navigating it. And it got me thinking, obviously, I was really sad for my mom and we bonded over that moment. We, you know, I felt really close to her in that moment because it's a worry that I share as well. But in that moment, I really got thinking about the fact that trans people are just framed as if we don't have parents, if we don't have families or communities that care about us. And in that moment,

you really just understand the length and breadth of the hurt that's being caused. It's not just trans people that are being attacked, it's our entire families. Yeah. It's the people that love us. It's our communities and it's tearing communities apart. It's just putting space between us as human beings that doesn't need to be there. It's so unnecessary. Trans people are not going around attacking people. And if that was the case, then we would

be on the side of the people being attacked. It's just, it's so insane. I think it's important as well to highlight the day-to-day thing. Like a lot of people will be watching and not know. So, for example, I have somebody in my team for a bit who's trans. and she was very late for something and we were all just really worried

because you think, and I don't think people realize that day to day you're like, she may have been attacked on her way here or she may have been killed even or she may have, you just don't know and that's the first thought you have if you're close to a trans person that's late even. Like normally with most people,

you'd be like, oh, it's 10 minutes It's a really hostile environment and hostile environments have consequences. But it's just to go through the world and have this constant soundtrack of suffering, of sadness, of another dead black trans woman or another trans kid taking their own life. Or a friend that's been sexually assaulted or a friend that's no longer in contact. with their parents because their parents disowned them after they came out as trans. It's just, it's constant bad news, both in media and in our personal lives. And it doesn't just affect us. It's this virus that's really seeped its way into society that's just causing so much pain.

I said the other day to my friend, the cruelty of it all should be a clue. It's not like these people are posing a real. rational argument. Most of them are saying it's not about trans people, it's about the fact that some guy could dress up as a trans person and commit an atrocity. So why are we paying the price for cisgender men, pretending to be us? Yeah. If that was going to happen, that would happen anyway.

Furthermore, can you imagine a cis guy, a cis straight guy, dressing up as a woman just to do what he's going to do anyway? Like in a culture of misogyny where feminism and femininity are so demonised that a lot of men don't want anything to do with it. They're not going to pretend to be a trans person to commit an atrocity. And if they hate femininity that much,

they're not going to really be believable in that role anyway. And the majority of men that commit sexual violence or domestic violence towards women are men that are known by these women. Yeah. So it's... It's very, very, very, very unlikely. It's very unlikely.

What do you think it is about people, though, that in culture, society, that scapegoats, the transgender community for their own misery, dissatisfaction? I think there's a lot of reasons. I think it's really important to understand that we never really know what someone's reason is. I think that there's a lot of people that are trauma. by traditional gender roles across the board, especially cisgender people. Traditional gender roles do not work. Yeah.

For women, it's a really raw deal of subservience. And for men, it's a watering down of you as an individual with the promise of having power at the end of it, which then puts you into this cage where you can't talk about your feelings, where you can't really express who you are. And you feel a failure if you don't access power. So, like, really, men and women both are having. a really raw deal having to conform to this traditional idea of masculinity or femininity, a man or a woman. So when trans people come along and just like, no, fuck that, I'm not doing

that, I'm going to go and be happy. I think a lot of people genuinely feel confronted with the fact that they have... They are not. Yeah, that they're not happy and that they've done what they were told with the promise of being happy at the end of it, sacrifice yourself and be self-servient to your man and you'll be happy and you've got... you know, family at the end of it, you've got all of this, all of this promise at the end of it, or fulfillment. Gender offers fulfillment that never happens for a lot of people if you don't really understand what you're doing.

And I think that the happiest people that I know are the people that confront in their own way and almost like resist the idea of traditional gender roles or traditional anything. Or have been allowed to be who they actually are. When I was a kid growing up, I was always called. called a geese bird. Oh, really?

Yeah. That's interesting. And when I had actual hormonal tests, it shows that we had a little bit more testosterone than like an average. But it's such a spectrum, isn't it? Like, no one has a set amount. Exactly. So maybe like slightly more than average.

But then there's loads of things that come with that that aren't gendered. Like my ability to go, I'm going to speak out on this, you know, what we're speaking about. But the society gender is it? Yes, the society goes, oh, she's a quite loud mouth-gut woman, but it's like all put onto you about who you actually are as a human being. Yeah. And those core values that we were speaking about before, about that unite us. Young girls give me so much hope in just a real rejection of what's expected of them.

I was speaking to a Gen Z, a Gen Z girl, a much younger girl than myself at a party the other day. and she was like, yeah, when I was younger, I got called a tomboy, but I think that that was just like my parents' way of just letting other parents know that I'm not a lesbian. Yeah. And it's really weird how we do this. So it's almost like, you know, she's dressing as a boy, but it doesn't mean anything about her sexuality.

Just like, she's just a tomboy. Yeah, why would it mean about anything to do with your sexuality? I always found that, like, when I was younger, tombboys or girls that were a, referred to as tombboys, never really referred to themselves as tombboys. It was always the parents that referred to them as tombboys to just let them know they had nothing to do with their sexuality. Talking of parents and your mum,

feeling sad, I'd love you to just say what she said as well about her concern. I loved the bit where I read in the pre-call. You said something about how people call it progress. We're going backwards. Yeah, she said to me, feels like we're going back. And I said to her, we're not going back. We're going forward and down.

We're going down towards fascism. And I think it's dangerous for people to think we're going back because then it's almost like we could go forward again. A lot of the damage that's being done to our society is going to be very difficult to undo. Should we bring my mum in? I would like to bring my mum in because it really strong. struck me what you were saying about your mum struggling with her fear as a parent

of having children. Hi, mummy. Come and sit down. Come in. You too. You are your mother's daughter. That's a glamour. So this is my mum, Pam.

Hi. And she understands greatly what it's like to be worried about a daughter. He's putting themselves out there. Troublesome daughters. Amazing. Yeah, I thought it was very moving what you said about your mum, that she's so worried. Yeah. Because you never stop worrying about your adult children.

Yeah, and as you get older, you worry about your parents as well. You think so? Yeah. Of course, yeah. So when she was telling me that I was worried, I was like, then I was like, oh God, now I'm angry because the government's making my mom worry about me and now I'm worried about her. Yeah. It's just, it's really sad and it puts so much tension on people.

And, you know, your family is where you should go. go to feel safe. Yeah, but it's also different for her because you are an activist and you're out in the public eye. So she probably does she follow you on the platform? She doesn't. Yeah.

She's probably wise. Yeah, no, I think I've been very vocal about that. I want to be her child. And I don't, as time's gone on, I don't see myself as an activist. Do you? Like, I just see myself as someone

that's being responsible, a human being that wants a better world for everybody. I don't want anyone to be targeted for their gender identity. And if we allow it to happen to trans people, then women will be next. And also, I want men to think,

are you having a good time? Are you loving this? Yes. Because you were one first generation of feminists, weren't you? Well, because for me, it's a really hard time because I don't know, I don't know how old your mother is. I won't reveal her. I was young in the 60s.

And it was a really wonderful time to be young. So for me, I mean, I like the way you've put it. For me, it is actually going backwards, but because I've been very interesting the way you've put, the way you analyse that, but forwards and down. Yeah, there's so many parallels with the 60s, isn't there? Like anti-war. Yes.

What do you worry about? I just, I worry about, I just think, no, I just think they've got children, some of these people who, there's a lot of people writing on social media because I actually do am on social media. There's a lot of people writing on... There's a lot of people on social media are so angry.

And it's unbelievable. And they have children and they're putting these kinds of things down in a way that is completely unheard of in the way I was brought up. It's just incredible, really, the anger that's out there. Yeah. Someone posted... Douglas at ID.

Hi, Douglas. Posted this the other day. It's never fun to... to be angry, but it's always fun to post about how angry you are. And it's a really good way to frame it that these people aren't necessarily angry. It's entertainment to them. That they don't really care about this issue enough to be angry about it, because if you do feel that angry, then you're more likely to do something more than just post about it on social media. Yeah. I think that a lot of it is actually people, it's almost like sadomasochism. It's

like reveling in the misfortune or the targeting of other people is cruelty a lot of the time. I think that people are angry about something that isn't what they are projecting onto. So they may be angry about the way that society is victimizing them, but they're not really angry at trans people, but it's convenient to target trans people because it becomes some form of sick entertainment. Yes, yeah. But they feel that they can just like... They have to blame somebody.

Do you feel scared? Very. I feel scared for when I'm gone and how you'll all cope. Because what, if you were alive, you'd be out there. Well, I'm too scared to go on March as now. But I just wonder whether your mother encouraged you to speak out all the time. No. Or you didn't facilitate that or anything, but you've just decided that yourself.

Because I think it's very, today I actually think it is brave to speak up. I think they encourage me to speak up for myself. Yes, yeah. But not necessarily to speak. out. There's a difference. Yeah, there's a big difference. I think that's largely down to the environment that I was raised in where I didn't have an, I didn't have an alternative but to speak out. Yes. I was raised in a town where there was only five black people. And two were me and my brother. One was my dad and two were a pair of sisters that were adopted by a white couple who lived up the road.

I was the only black kid in my entire school. So I didn't have anyone that was going to speak up for me when it came to racism or homophobia necessarily. I was the only out kid in my school, so I came out when I was 14. So my whole life has really been a process of speaking up and speaking out for myself and others. I just don't feel happy or feel comfortable

allowing things to happen. I've never felt like that. It really irks me. And I feel like a coward if I don't speak out. And I would much rather not feel like a coward and deal with the repercussions of that than just, you know, I think it's just... Thanks for coming you.

Lovely to meet you anyway. Okay. After speaking to you for the other previous two sections, I'm feeling like, I don't think you've probably done much that's bad in your life because you're so badass. that just eclipses everything.

I mean, we're all human beings. There's a lot of mistakes. There's a lot of lessons that I've learned. Do you have regret? Yeah, of course. But I try not to get too, you know, bogged down on them. I think it's really important to own it, learn from it and move forward, rather than just, you know, fretting about the fact that we're not human,

not perfect human beings. Because it's not possible to get through this. life without making mistakes. And of course, I would have loved for it to have turned out differently, but your reality is your reality. What kind of mistakes do you think you've made? I don't know. I guess like... Or things you feel bad about. Relationship choices, maybe being hard on myself, especially in the early days of my transition, I was really cruel to myself. How did that manifest? I guess in how I spoke to myself. I was very, very, very, you know, I was very, very, you know, much of the mindset that I could hate myself into changing,

that I could be so hard on myself and so brutal with largely my appearance in how I talked to myself and my reflection, I would just really zone in on the things I hated about myself, and then you get stuck on that as, you know, putting on makeup or, you know, incessantly trying to, like, hide something about myself. And I think it's a constant relationship that you're working at to make sure that you're not lapsing back into that. Yeah, constantly because it's a battle.

Do you think that you're a perfectionist and you struggle with not doing what you expect of yourself? Definitely a perfectionist. And it's been rooted in different places. I used to see perfectionism as that you're perfect. and the constant striving to be perfect. But it can even be as simple as trying to always make sure that things are the best that they could be,

but because they come from me and I never perceive myself to be perfect, this kind of a futile endeavor that something, I'll always find something wrong with it rather than focusing on what's right with it. So I guess it's the same as focusing on yourself, instead of focusing on what I feel insecure about or what I wish was different about myself, I can change the things that I can change,

but not to put too much weight on the changing element, but also focus on what I like about myself and what I've achieved for myself, outside of accolades and external things. What things do you like about yourself? I think I like that I'm a really resilient person. I like that I care about other people, that I want,

better for myself and others. I think that if I see somebody that's uncomfortable in any situation, I want to make that person comfortable and with people pleaser, but not too much. I think I've got pretty good... For the underdog. Yeah. You don't want to please the horrible warlords. I'm inquisitive. I guess...

What do you think that there is that makes your brain like different to the norm? Because you've got a special mind. I think we've all got special minds and I think that when you release the idea that your mind is meant to function in a prescriptive way, you get to really get to know yourself

and you stop being so hard on yourself. I've always felt a little bit like a personal failure by professional success. And it's difficult because it's like, why can't I do adulting properly? Why can't I, you know, why do I fret about the small things that everybody else seems to just do easily? I don't know.

I think that as I've gotten older, I just work with my mind instead of against it. And as someone that's experienced mental health issues, I've really just started to not resist the way in where my mind will go and to speak to myself with kindness. And it's very easy, especially when you navigate anything like PTSD

or depression or anxiety, to be as bad to yourself as you have experienced other people be bad to you. And it's just a very difficult cycle to break. So in understanding and pre-anticipating what I need, I can work with my mind and I can understand myself as an individual and not be hard on myself that my mind doesn't work in a way that I would prefer it to because I think we all would.

You know, I think we can... You're so good at making the most out of what you've got, which I think is quite amazing. Doing the best with what I got in the words of Mariah Carey. It's true. It's true. My mum always used to say to me, you like me, Ploma, you can look terrible in the mornings, but you're really good at just making yourself look better, a bit of makeup. I'm like, thanks, Mom.

But I think, like, symbolically, that's the way that, like, being, like, badness is perceived as, like, negative. If you can take some things that maybe you're not so good at and mix them with some things that you're really good at, then you sort of create a life. You create a career. Absolutely. Like, in high school, in high school, I was like, why does my mouth always get me into trouble?

I was always... But now it's not... Well. But now it's doing good things. Well, yeah. I was like, you know, I'm bad at keeping my mouth shut or I'm good at not keeping my mouth shut. It depends on how you look at it.

And just to finish, because you've been an incredible guest, I'm blown away and I just hope that more people watching will become more like Monroe. But just at the beginning of our chat, you spoke about how difficult it was to find hope and find joy and in this madness when we're sort of perpetually exposed to so much negativity and sadness. And so the last segment of the podcast is what makes you glad.

And I'd like to know how in amongst all the work you do and all the tribulations and trials you've faced as not just a trans person, but as a mixed race person and as a woman, like so many experiences you've had all encompassed in one person, what makes you glad after all of this? Personally, that I've gotten to a place where I understand that community and a calm nervous system are the most important things to me, that it's not having external validation,

whether or not that's my womanhood or my professional success, or anything, the only things that can be good for me and that can be sustainably generative when it comes to feeling glad or content, they exist within me or they are me. And that is humanity, that's community, and that's love of self and the people that I love. nothing that isn't within me can bring me sustainable happiness.

And that's not avoidant. That's not saying that we can't love people that are outside of our body. It's understanding that I am responsible for my happiness. And there's going to be things that send me off track. There's going to be things that I need to confront, that I need to get past, and learn from, but I need to be good with myself throughout all of that. And I can't go through life, beating myself up and not being perfect. Can't go through life wishing that I was someone else.

Can't go through life wishing that things were different. You need to exercise acceptance, but also strive for something better. Well, you've made me really glad today because I'm glad you exist. Thank you, babe. So good to see you. Thank you for having me. I'm avoiding the mic. Oh, thank you so much for coming.

You're so moving, inspirational, divine, everything. Thank you. No, you too. No, I wish the world was full of views. I really do. It would be a better place. I don't wish that. You know, not at all.

Not for the individuals. Yeah. But thank you. You're incredible. And I really appreciate this platform and what you're doing. And keep speaking up. It's really inspiring.

You too. Thank you. Get home safe. I will, I will. Look after those baby dogs you've got. Bye. Well, wasn't that great? All of the links of everything we mentioned in the show can be found in the episode description.

Oh, and while you're there, why not subscribe and follow the show too? See you all next time. As potatoes.