Mad, Sad and Bad with Paloma Faith - Paapa Essiedu: Why Grief Shouldn’t Be Feared

Episode Date: March 4, 2025

Paapa Essiedu is not only an incredible actor, lighting up our screens and London’s stages, he’s also a great friend and probably the most emotionally intelligent man I know.In this conversation, Paapa opens up about losing both his parents by the age of 20, and what it taught him about love, grief, and how sadness creates the imperfections of our character which allow us to be authentic and unique individuals. We also discuss spirituality, Christian guilt, and how growing up going to church shaped Paapa’s ideas of what it means to be a good person. Paapa also shares his experiences of racial profiling as an actor, and how he’s learned to channel this anger into action.I deeply admire Paapa and his ability to express himself calmly and eloquently in the face of injustice – I really loved this thought-provoking and inspiring chat and hope you do too!#PAAPAESSIEDU #PALOMAFAITH #MADSADBAD—Find us on: Instagram / TikTok / YouTube—Credits:Producer: Jemima RathboneAssistant Producer: Magda CassidyEdit Producer: Pippa BrownEditor: Shane O'ByrneVideo: Jake Ji & Grisha NikolskyVideo Editor: Josh BennettOriginal music: BUTCH PIXYSocial Media: Laura CoughlanMarketing: Eleanore BamberExec Producer: Jemima RathboneExec Producers for Idle Industries: Dave Granger & Will MacdonaldSenior Exec Producer: Holly Newson Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Paloma Faith and this is my show. Each week I welcome someone fantastic into my home to talk about what makes them mad, sad and bad. Roll recording. You look cool. Thank you, so do you. How you doing? I'm understated.

I always dressed up at home. Oh, you're just down for me. Yeah, this is how I walk about in heels at home. You got enough recycling out there? I'm doing my bit of the environment. remember. Where are we going in here? This way.

It smells absolutely amazing in there. Thank you. Is it this? It's actually my vagina. Oh, is it your vagina? Your vagina smells like roses. To you, he's the beloved best friend, Kwame from I May Destroy You,

the lead in the Lazarus Project and the demon garp in Black Mirror. Or maybe to you, he's on the big screen playing alongside Sir Sharonan in the Outrun, or he's treading the borders, Hamlet, in Death of England. He's a multi-award nominated actor and has star quality that makes you sit up

and pay attention. But to me, he's a man I saw on telly who I developed a burning desire for and was asked to present a theatre award to an event where I was told he was going to be there. I said, I'm not really interested in presenting a theatre award, but if you put me on the same table as this man, I will attend. So I was put on the same table as him only to realise he was taken. Damn. But since, I got the runner-up prize of becoming his friend

and he's a great friend too. Papa Asseidu. What an introduction, I mean? Can you imagine like a more organic friendship philosophy? I forced my way in. My first question, does it bother you that you've become

a massive sex symbol? Does it bother me? Yeah. How do you feel about it? It's definitely not how I've logged myself in my own mind. Is it news to you when I say that? A massive sex symbol. Yes.

Have you actually got the receipts for that? Well, every time I say my friend Papa and they go, Papa, they do. Oh my God, I'm obsessed with him. He's so hot. Who's that? Every single person. Every single person you're straight to. Every gay man and every straight woman I speak to, yes. Okay.

Well, that's a pretty good... That's a pretty good spectrum. They're not really saying it to me, but I'm happy for people to be saying it behind my bat. Yeah, you don't feel kind of objectified. Huh. My mum's always telling me off for, like, making men, saying stuff like I just said about you

to men because she says that if they did it about a woman, it would be a terrible thing. It would be awful if I came on your podcast and said every time. I would like it. Every time I talk about my friend, Blyam, I really like it. How do you feel about doing this podcast? How do I feel about doing this podcast? Well, you know I'd do anything for you, Blomber, but...

Anything? Absolutely anything, but you just have to ask nicely. But I probably should have interrogated you a little bit further when you said, when you texted me, I think quite late at night, saying, hey, I'm doing a podcast. Will you come on it? And I was just like, yeah, whatever. And then I had a chat with the producer, I think, last week. And they revealed to me what the actual, what the requirements of the podcast is are. And I was like, oh my God, now I'm going to have to share all my deepest, darkest, my secret thoughts and stories.

It's vulnerable. It's very, it's very, it's vulnerable. And I think it's a real challenge and actually privilege to, make space to be vulnerable, especially with your friends, but to do it in front of... Sorry. These guys.

Don't be sorry, no. I'm very happy to be here. I just feel like, don't you, that we don't always get to know people? And I feel like you're... When I Google you, which I did for the purpose of this, you're really interesting.

And it's like amazing. But I know a version of you that I think's even more special. That's why I'd like you on the podcast. Thank you for inviting me Oh My mate's actually popping in To join us

Well maybe I don't know I'm going to just go get us She's called Baby Baby Baby I'm making a podcast I'm so sorry I'm late You're always late This is baby

This is Papa Two of my besties I'm good You're gorgeous You are absolutely stunning You look gorgeous don't now Oh my God She's gay.

What's the point? It's telling you. Yeah, but we're just... Hold on, hold on, hold on. This is just like a mutual appreciation, isn't it? Do I mean? You're like adding the whole other thing to it.

No, I know my friends. Well, she just melted. I have to say that you are very good. It's the beard and the smile and these eyes. Looking at you. Oh my day, I can't. Yeah. Are you going to come sit with us?

I don't know. going to happen, but I need a minute. You can't get my things down. That's baby, I've known her since I was 16, and she sings with me sometimes, but also she's a solo singer-artist and one of my best friends. She's coming.

She's wealthy. How do you perceive the word mad? It's funny. You know, when I first read it, I didn't even think about the shadow meanings of it or the many meanings of it. My initial thought of it was as angry. Mad as in

that's interesting to me That's interesting to you Yeah because I never thought that until I started making this podcast Yeah weirdly like I didn't think of it as being something else until I heard you say Yeah But like if if okay let's say we're to use the word mad

To describe someone who's like Not mentally healthy Is that pejorative? Yes but also I think that coming from the perspective as somebody who's people's always gone, she's mad, she's mad as a box of frogs about me. Yeah, that's why I was wanting to make this podcast because I was like, what is actually mad?

If I'm mad and I consider myself to be pretty rational, sane, have my politics in the right place morally quite sound, then I'm kind of confused about what people think mad is. And it's quite, people are quite flippant, aren't they, about like mental health? related words anyway. But I just thought it was an interesting word. When people use it, because

it sounds like when they use it against you in that context, it's kind of weaponised, what do you think they're trying to do? Do you think they're trying to belittle you? Maybe they're trying to demean you. Have you ever been called mad? Like, as in you're mad?

Um, I don't think so, but I think I think I think it's gendered. I think like it's not something that's it's not a word that's often used against, or not used against men in the same way it's used against women, generally, I think. And I kind of feel like, especially when men call women mad,

that's because of a kind of something lacking on, insecurity in a man in terms of them being able to absorb the person that's in front of them. use that as a kind of thing to demean or to straight jacket. Yeah. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I do. I think you're a very bright man.

Do you want to tell me a time that you've been angry? I don't often find myself having an explosive kind of outbursts of anger. Have you ever had a fight? I had a fight. I had one fight with a guy who remained unnamed when I was at school in a playground. Let's just say his head was just. shaped like a loaf of bread and he also kind of resembled one and we kind of had this fight and I punched him but I punched him in the back of the head but I think he must have just

turned his head like really suddenly and like I connects the back of his head and I like it really hurt my I think it hurt my my fist more than it hurt his head well actually no I think for me like all the fights that I've been in as an adult have been like trying to break up fights so You take a kind of passive role or a diffusing role. A diffusing role maybe. Where do you think that comes from? Did you have like strict parents, religious background? Yeah, it probably is Christian guilt.

But like I grew up, you know, single mom going to church until I was probably about 17, something like that. And whilst now I probably, you know, would describe myself as spiritual rather than religious, I don't know if I'm an atheist or not, but I mean there's always like residual kind of leftover kind of feelings from that time. But I don't know if the anger is suppressed. I don't know if it's repressed. I don't know if it all comes out when it needs to come out

or if it comes out in different ways. But yeah, I don't think the out. And I know people, I know really angry people. I relate to on this because I, grew up in a household where I don't know what your exact background was, but mine was that all anger was associated with my dad because it wasn't a great home life, like with him involved. And so anger was massively negative.

So therefore, now as an adult, I feel quite difficult. I find it quite difficult to be angry because I associated with becoming like the bad thing that I grew up as a kid feeling like. But I just wonder whether it's in there anyway and how it might manifest if you're suppressing anger, like how does it manifest? Or are you just like so amazingly therapist

that you're able to talk your feelings out? I don't think the point of therapy is to like disappear anger. I think like you say like it's always going to be, I mean we're people. Yeah, it's natural. I mean, we're people and the world. kind of sucks, you know, and even if it doesn't, like, people are triggering and things are triggering and life isn't fair, right? So, like, anger will exist. I found myself, in me, I would

say I relate to the fact that I give my self-permission to be confrontational or angry, usually in defence of someone else. And I think that's why I can find myself on a march, because I'm defending someone else, or I can, I've been in fights before, but usually, and taken punches, But it's been when I've defended someone else. Not when I'm defending myself. When I'm defending myself, I usually shut down, go quiet. But if some, I get usually very protective and I'm quite, yeah, I get like kind of the lioness in me when somebody I love or not even

or somebody I see is being, you know, victimised. Then I find the anger quite easily, I think. But not when it comes to myself. Does that make sense? sort of sense and I think I also really relate to that. Yeah. Maybe we can be angry together. I'd like to.

Have you ever done that thing of like just like going out to like a cliffside and just like screaming? No, have you? No, but me and my friend were going to do it every day. I'd be up for that. She'd do that. I'd love that. So if madness as in anger in this context is a gateway for sadness, talk to me about sadness. Tell me about it.

Tell you about sadness. Tell me about a time that you've been really sad. Sorry. I think, yeah, sadness is something that I definitely have... Well, you know what? It's funny. Like, I've been sad many times in my life. Not in a, like, always me way, but...

I think it's in... interesting to talk about how, like, sadness manifests as well, you know, because, for example, like, look, so, like, one thing that happened to me is, like, I lost my dad when I was 14, I was my mom when I was 20 years old. I was really close to my mom, grew up with my mom, happened, like, it happened, I was in my first year at drama school, really kind of pivotal, and it was after a long, like, illness, blah, blah, lots. But, like, I think after that happened, I cried a bit on that day, cried a bit of, the funeral and then didn't cry again for maybe like five or six years.

And I remember like, and even now I look back at that time and I think, does that mean that I wasn't sad? That's obviously not the case. And I've, like, now I kind of like cry all the time. I cried this morning when someone was telling me a story, you know? And it fit in, in a lot of ways, in a lot of ways that feels healthy because it, allows you to be in authentic and honest conversation with your sadness. And it kind of allows your sadness not to be something that, I suppose, drives the car of your

life. It allows it to be a companion. And I kind of think that it's important for sadness to be a companion to you in the same way as it, as it's important for happiness to be a companion to you. I think our sadness is something that often kind of like creates the, the edges, the corners, the imperfections, the roughnesses of our character, of our personalities that allow us to be real, authentic, unique individuals, you know. Do you think that your grief that you carry has affected the way that you view life, like the way that you view opportunities or moments when you are joyful? Like, how does that grief that you, like, endured from such a year?

young age and quite close together in sort of a lifespan, inform like your attitude, do you think? I kind of think there's a thing about grief, which I think is a misnomer, which is that it's like you lose someone and then that's it. You know, like that's like an ending for something. Whereas I think like one thing that I feel that I've learned is that grief is, it's constant transition you know so it's constantly evolving

and like the sadness that I felt in 2010 isn't any it isn't actually any less felt today but it's felt in a different way you know and I kind of find it yeah to to be more of a companion now than it is you know like something that's dogging me or something to be scared of

or something to run away from. I kind of feel like it's something that it's important for me to encompass and be close to and to cherish actually because I kind of think like that is the thing that allows people to stay alive in your heart, in your mind's eye, in your body. You know, the idea that like someone might not be there in physical form, but you know, the love that you have for them or they have for you endures or the lessons that you couldn't learn then,

but you somehow end up finding yourself learning like 10 years later or 15 years later, that it endures. And I think like having that kind of open-heartedness towards grief, which again allows you to have access to sadness. So it means that you can cry. It means that you can lament. It means that you can laugh as well, you know.

But allowing that to be like a continuous and open, and a live connection to something, I think allows it to have a slightly less kind of like choking hold on yourself. I have to say that that's something that struck me from the time we've known each other is that your attitude and your vocal, like the way that you explicitly talk about women is notably respectful in a way that not many men.

in a way that not many men I've ever met speak. Like the fact that already in this podcast you've said earlier, like, oh, I think it's gendered. I think, you know, like your attitude, I think the influence that you have of like your love for your mother, like, is in that? Like, as a man who's, it's just like, it's obvious that she raised you in an amazing way.

Also that you're an empathetic. person enough to kind of take all that on board, observe what it was like to be raised by a single parent mum, you just have this innate feeling that she's living through you because of your attitude towards women. Like I always think to myself, this is a man who's been very close and tuned into women when he was growing up. Yeah, it's interesting. Obviously, like, you only know what you know, right? And you only have the experience that you have, you know. As a it strikes me a lot because I deal with men all the time, of course. But it's very rare and you know what you know because it seems obvious

and also maybe in circles of actors and stuff, it's more spoken about commonplace, but actually in reality it isn't. You know, we're both from East London, growing up in East London, actors or not, it's not like a common, it's all like, yeah, my bird, you know, and you're just like, no, let's discuss this, you know. It's a journey. though. I'd love to say that I just like popped out and I've been like this. No, but I feel like it's the influence that your mother had. So when you say to me, oh,

the grief isn't, it changes shape and it takes, but she's still with you. I feel like in those forms it feels really prominent to me, her influence. Do you want to drink? I'm absolutely parched, actually. Do you want your juice? Could someone please bring me my juice? I'm thirsty. Baby! Yes, no. Can you bring Papa's juice? Yes, I can.

I'm in. I've got you a mic, because actually, I think this is quite a good moment for you to come in. Hi. Thank you, baby. Come and sit around here. Sit down. I shall. Where will I sit?

Here. Sit next to us. I'll sit next to you. Sit in the middle. So baby is... Look at the shoes. Do you like them? Can we get their shoes on camera?

They're a good. They're good, don't they? They're good, isn't they? They're cool. They were present. From what? From her. So you guys don't know that you've got something in common.

So you were nodding and do you want to tell Papa? My mother passed away in 2008. And everything that you said really resonated with me when it comes to like the process of grief, the evolution of grief. Yeah. Yeah. It really sort of sat in my being.

What about divine intervention? Do you believe in it? I believe that in terms of, yes, I would say, I believe that the universe sort of hands you opportunities to find a new path and a new way of thinking and resonating with your own being. So therefore, for me, I see that as divine intervention because I sort of believe in the path of the ancestors as well, like, you know, the people that came before you, fashion the people that you are.

Do you know what I mean? Or the people that we become, especially through DNA and stuff like that. So for me, like just that whole idea really resonates with me because I think that it's also potentially scientifically quite explainable as well. And doesn't that like provide such a galvanising take on grief there? You know, when you're... Do you know what I mean? Like, if you think about like,

um, yourself as being like literally a product, literally and also like genetically a product of all your ancestors who have come before you, wow. Do you know what I mean? Like that means no one can never die, you know? That's how I feel. I mean, energy, you know, from potential to kinetic, it never dies.

It just mousse, doesn't it? Correct. As you said, it evolves. Right. And I like it very much. And that's what I mean by like, You can't destroy love like that. And why would you want to?

Yeah. And I think that also means that, wow, I mean, you have a responsibility to really do it, you know, to really live. But not everybody does that and I think it's really, really, really adorable. And I don't, like, and the moment, jump in, the moments that you can do it. She was like, I think I started to live recently. You were like, I'm doing something and it feels like living. And didn't you say, I'm so. stressed about not being stressed.

Yeah. I literally did. I was like, I'm really content and happy at the moment. I'm stressed about it. Do you know what? It's been so lovely speaking to you. What a pleasure. What a privilege.

Honestly. And I hope I get to speak to you more. I'm so glad that you've made this nice friend because hopefully that means that we'll see him more. Yeah, we will. Like in our lives. Do you think that you are concerned with being a good person? Oh my God.

Why are you smiling like that? Because I think you are. You think I'm concerned about it? Yeah, I think you're very preoccupied about being good and doing the right thing all the time. Yeah, totally. Like, um, this is really like headlining. You do it really well, though, just saying.

Like, you are good and decent and... Sure, but like, I'm... I... The reason I'm laughing is because this is like, like, very front cortex at the moment for me. And I'm thinking about, like, like the times, like people pleasing, right? Mm-hmm.

And that being, that being an attribute that on the surface feels like it's something, it's really like an attempt to exert control, right? It's trying to control like what other people think of you, trying to control, like, how you are perceived in the world, trying to create safeness for yourself, safety for yourself. You know, like trying to. But like, ultimately, like, are you able to do that in a way that allows you to remain authentic, that allows you to

remain truthful with yourself and with others? Probably not. And eventually, like, I kind of think it leads to you having to make a decision as to whether that's the most important thing or allowing your true self to come out as the most important thing. I agree. I've actually got song lyric in one of my songs that says, sometimes to heal you have to hurt. And at the time I wrote I meant sometimes to heal yourself, you've got to hurt other people. And that's just the worst feeling is like thinking that at times there's no way out of the fact that in order to like make yourself feel happier, you may have to hurt another person. And I think that's a really difficult thing to bargain with in just, just in life. But like it happens in a small scale as well

if you're a people pleaser, which I am as well. And I'm really concerned about what people think of me. Like, you know when someone says to me, oh, I know someone who met you and I just always jumped straight down their throat. Was I nice? Yeah. Or even worse, being like, oh, I think we've met before.

Suddenly that's like being like doused in cold water. I actually have it as well where sometimes certain fans of mine have acted like they know me and they'll be like Paloma and just because I don't trust that I might have forgotten them I go hi and then I end up in this embrace that's like a little uncomfortably too long and I'm like oh I don't know this person and now I'm stuck and I don't know how long before and I'm just waiting for it to release I am interested to know when we think about badness So we've talked about, I've asked you to say something, you did that was bad, but it would be remiss of me knowing what I'm like,

not to ask you about, as your experience as an East London, British black male in an acting world that's predominantly run by white people, like when they are bad, because there's no denying it, these are situations where, you know, you spoke to me or others, about a situation where you felt like racially profiled in roles and all of that. My question with that is, how do you maintain your sense of like kindness and equilibrium and cool when it comes to other people doing what we know are bad things, like as in directly to you? Because I envy it and I think it's very admirable and I don't know if I could do that.

I mean, you do do it daily because, like, you're not top of the food chain either. No. In case you didn't know. Thanks. But, like, I think eventually, look, I think it's twofold. Like, I think that, because, yeah, that is something that really does make me angry. You know, the way, like, especially historically the way I have, the experiences that I have had, which shouldn't have happened to like someone who was that age

at that stage in their career who had the, you know, the optimism or even the naivity that I had to be treating the way I did. But you should have been able to have, I think, in a safe way to be optimistic and be naive. For sure. But like we say, like people get angry because life is fucked, right? It's not fair. But, like, for me, like, it did get to a point where I was like,

it is actually just like a doubling down on like the negative impact on myself if like I'm being oppressed and then I'm also like putting my energy into being angry about that. So like. Because you're going to feel worse if you feel rage. It just entrenches the depression. I entrenched the position that you find yourself in. Not that I'm saying so like not that I'm saying that people shouldn't feel rageful.

And for me it's about like what that rage allows you to do. you know, like if it allows you to galvanise yourself in order to be able to think smarter, in order to like speak clearer and with more confidence and with more intentionality in terms of like confronting the things that you don't think are. And obviously I'm able to do that in a way that I wasn't able to do five years ago or ten years ago,

both because of experience, also because of knowledge. How your procedure in the industry. Also, yeah, the power that and the privilege that I'm imbued with just because of things that, you know, have happened either by designer or by luck, you know. So I do feel angry, but I do consciously try and like convert that anger into action

and into, and also into myself, you know, like my own development independently of what, other people are then trying on the kind of shackles other people will try and put upon me. I feel like I wish I was more like you. I'm just, no, I do. This is genuine.

What do you mean, though? No, but I mean, it's so admirable, so moving, just across this whole podcast, the way you speak about life and your perception. I completely relate to it, and I know that's why we get on, but I feel like your streets ahead of me. I mean,

But that's just the bull, I mean, yes. Like, who's telling you that? Do you know what I mean? A bully in there. No, thanks. Like, I hate to put you on blast now, but like, you've got a podcast right now, which is probably going to be listened to by half the country. You've just had a best-selling book.

Don't start this. You're a best-selling album. You're a single mother of two beautiful children. You've got an amazing house. You literally designed this pillow case, you know. I think you're doing all right, you know, so, like, you can allow the bully to, like, quiet it down there. Thank you.

So this is a good segue. to the last bit, which is the glad, the rhyme. What makes you glad? And it can be right now or in general or anything. You know what? I think, and like, this is actually lame, but like, I feel really glad for health, you know, my own health. I kind of, as someone who's been in proximity to, like, ill health in many different

guises and in different forms, I feel very glad to be healthy in the way. that I am and it's not always like I was thinking I was thinking earlier on like that I I tried to run a half marathon a couple of years ago um and because because I'm a psychopath I like tried to run it way too fast right and like I think I got to like 16k half marathon is like 21k whatever I was like 16k and I was like cooked right and then um and I remember I remember thinking wow this is just kind of hard. And then the next thing I remember was waking up in a hospital tent.

You know, and basically I'd like continue I'm mad. I continued running for like another three. You're mad. I'm mad. Guys, I'm mad. I knew that was the reason I liked you. Oh, maybe that's what I should have said.

I'm mad. Yeah. I'm mad when I'm actually in competition myself. But I continued running for another three kilometers even though my body was basically shut down. And then apparently I was found, not even on the floor as found like in like a bush on the side of the road,

like a dog that had taken itself off to die. And then I'd been like taken to the hospital tent. I mean, it's funny in retrospect, but at the time it wasn't. And I woke, I remember I woke up and I couldn't, I couldn't remember any words. I couldn't move.

And I, I didn't know why I was there. I couldn't really figure out why my legs hurt so much. No, I was just completely like, I had no faculty, basically. basically. And I remember at the moment, at that moment, thinking, wow, like, this, this is it. Like, there was my life before now and there's my life now. And I was like, it's, I thought a lot of things. Anyway, eventually, like, after, and I'd been, apparently I'd been out for like 45 minutes.

I was on a, I was on a trip or whatever. But eventually, like, movement started coming back, and I started remembering words and I was like, and I just find it really funny. You know, and I, and, and retrospectively, I was like, wow. human body is crazy, but I'm so glad to be, to have had the experience of being able to come back from something like that and a million other things. So I feel very glad for my health. I feel very glad for my life. I feel very glad for all the privileges that have come both through like adversities and triumphs,

you know, but most importantly, I feel glad to be your friend. Oh, stop. That's just him being manipulative at the end. I know. But yeah, thank you. This has been insightful and cemented the fact that I know that you're just a bad man. You're a don. Thank you.

Love you, mate. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming. You're amazing. You're the best. When I grow up, I want to be you. You'll grow up one day. I promise you.

See later. Bye. Get home safe. Don't let the mean streets of East London get you. What a gem. Well, wasn't that great? All of the links of everything we mentioned in the show can be found in the episode description.

Oh, and while you're there, why not subscribe and follow the show too? See you all next time. Later's potatoes.