Mad, Sad and Bad with Paloma Faith - Samuel L. Jackson: My First And Last Podcast

Episode Date: June 2, 2025

Samuel L Jackson is one of the most well-regarded and iconic actors of his generation. From catching the attention of Hollywood in Spike Lee’s Jungle Fever to playing Nick Fury in the the Marvel franchise and of course his continued career collaboration with Quentin Tarantino, Sam has become one of the most loved actors in Hollywood, and a friend no one ever believes I have!Sam very kindly agreed to pop over to mine when he was last in London for his first ever podcast appearance (and his last!). He spoke to me about growing up in segregation and being on the right side of history - appearing in Kendrick Lamar's iconic Super Bowl Half Time Show. We chatted about his career, from being a high functioning addict and raising his daughter Zoe, to how he makes such evil characters so real and likeable. We talked about therapy and near-death experiences, road-rage and the key to a successful marriage...We didn't leave a stone unturned - it was a JOY! And it will also be the only time you'll ever hear Sam on a podcast - lucky me!#SAMUELLJACKSON #PALOMAFAITH #MADSADBAD—Find us on: Instagram / TikTok / YouTube—Credits:Producer: Jemima RathboneAssistant Producer: Magda CassidyVideo: Josh Bennett & Grisha NikolskySound: Joe RichardsonMix: Jay BealeOriginal music: BUTCH PIXYSocial Media: Laura CoughlanExec Producer for JamPot: Jemima RathboneExec Producers for Idle Industries: Dave Granger & Will Macdonald Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You are so privileged. I've never done one of these. You're about to find out why. Hello, I'm Paloma Faith. Each week, I welcome someone amazing into my home to talk about when they've been mad, sad and bad. Roll recording. Sorry, no thanks.

Nice to see you. Amazing. Thank you for coming to East London. What are you talking about? This is dope-ass. How much? Can I get it? You can't buy everything. Come on.

Come through. This is the living room. Can't buy everything he sees. Ooh. Like piano. Do you want to get on it? No. The person I'm about to introduce has already told me if you don't know who he is, then you shouldn't be watching this.

But here's an introduction anyway. To you, he's an internationally acclaimed actor and cultural icon. His breakout roles were gay to purify in Spike Lee's Jungle Fever, where he was so good, the Cannes Film Festival created the best surprise. Supporting Performance Award for him and Jules Winfield in Tarantino's Pulp Fiction, age 46, which earned him an Oscar nomination. He's gone on to play some of the most iconic characters in movie history from Nick Fury and the Avengers franchise to Stephen in Django Unchain and Neville Flynn in Snakes on a plane, earning

him cult status and actually is the highest grossing actor of all time. He's an activist and campaigned for the civil rights movement as a student, even locking Martin Luther King, Senior in a room as part of a protest at college and 56 years later he appeared as Uncle Sam in Kendrick Lamar's Super Bowl performance in a word, he's a cool motherfucker

and that really doesn't sound as cool when I say it. But to me he's a man I met a decade ago at an event and struck up a friendship that no one ever believes I have. He's someone I once did a favour for helping with a charity fundraiser he'd organised for prostate cancer and after the event he said he owed me one and he really meant it. Since then he's done me too many favours

and all I've managed to do is buying some tonic water and a coffee. It's Samuel L Jackson. Was it great? It was awesome. It was amazing. I left the French horn there because I know you play it and I don't expect you to play it but I just thought... It's pretty.

It looks beautiful. It's very beautiful instruments. It is. And I just thought, you know, if you felt compelled to respond or you were like, I can't even think of an answer. I'm just going to play some music. You can.

It's there. Do you feel like a grown up yet? Yeah, I feel like a grown up all the time. Do you? Yeah, it's one of those things where you wish you could, you know, have a childlike attitude about something and now you can't because you know too much. And the world's, the pressure of the world is a little greater than it should necessarily be. So you know.

Do you think because my marriage, it wasn't a marriage, but my relationship with my kids' dad ended. It didn't go well. I failed at that. And I was just wondering about what it is that makes you think your marriage has endured the way that it has. Like, what's the key to that? I don't know. Because that's unusual in Hollywood for a marriage to last as long as yours. It's unusual for the world, you know.

Or it used to be, it used to be the norm, I guess. You know, I mean, we've been together for 50 some years, you know. So when you do have those volatile moments, you don't have them to the point that you go, you know, fuck you. I'm leaving, you know, or I've been in that place. Well, you know, sometimes you don't have to stay and working out. You just have to be quiet and sit. You know, even when I was, back when I was, you know, I was an addict. That was crazy.

It was crazy times in the house. She always calls it her villa in hell. Oh. But, you know, it was a time and it happens. Do you think you're a good husband? Yes, so. I don't even know what that means. I don't know.

It's funny because people talk a lot, don't they, about good husbands and good fathers is a big one. Like, I didn't have a great father. You've obviously got a child. And I feel like I'm quite blessed because my kids, I broke up with my kids' dad. But I think they've got a brilliant father because I don't. didn't have that. Mm-hmm. Like.

Well, I didn't either, so. Yeah. Well, I had my grandfather. But then you've become a good father and a good husband. I know, well. We all have flaws. I'm not saying anyone's perfect. Well, I'm just, I'm just, you know, I go through it and I don't really think about it.

I know that, you know, when she and I were in college together and we were both, you know, we were acting and doing all the stuff that we're doing, it's like doing theater and going through it. And at one point, she was the breadwinner because she made way more money than I did. I was running around New York trying to figure it out and going to auditions and doing off, off, off, off, off, off, off, Broadway or, you know, busing truck, you know, whatever it was to do. There are times when she was the responsible person. And, you know, I was there with Zoe. So our relationship was tight because I fed her. I did my best to do her hair or whatever I could do to it. And we were always together. We'd do some stupid shit with her, but whatever.

But, you know, we had fun together. And I also made her sit down and read. But that is a gift. I keep saying to my kids, you must read. I'm going to sit here with you. I'm going to read my book. You read your book. You know, I did stuff with her that was, you know, it's fun for me, but it's very

addicted behavior, I guess. You know, I was high. So I would do things. Like, I made all these flashcards for it. So when she was even in the fascinating at her crib and she was like, she couldn't talk and she couldn't do anything, I would like hold up, you know, A, B, B, C. And she was like, watch. You think that was a manifestation of your addiction?

Part of it, you know. But I was like, you know, interacting with her, but it was fun. Yeah. It was a good part of it. Yeah, this is a cool thing to do. So I would do that and I would go, you know, eyes. And I would hold up and think of eyes. And then I'd go, dad, mommy.

Zoe. So when she finally started talking, she was like there. But she also learned to curse early because she was with me all the time. So that was happening too. You know, I could hear her talking to our little friends and they would be messing with her. You know, fuck you. And I said, oh, my kids do that. And unfortunately, it is one of the cutest things ever watching a child curse.

And we can't, like, you do that thing where you're like, I can't laugh, but it's amazing. I just told us. You can do that with them, but you can't do that with grown people. You know, you can't do that when you're not in the house. When you're here, you can do that.

But you can't. You know, it's like my wife always tells the story when we were at a wedding somewhere and this woman had Zoe in the arms and she's like, you want something to eat, baby? And she's like, what is that shit?

And her lady was like, and then she looked at you and said, no, that shit looks fucked up. So good. So she didn't eat. How old was she? She was up there. The woman was holding her.

She was like barely talking. I was like, give it to me. Who the baby is this? And you're like, oh, you're the guy that swears in movies. Yeah, here you go. Right here. But, no. So we had a great, we had a great relationship in terms of I had to be with and I,

and I was the singular person taking care of her when my wife was doing whatever she was doing. And then she came back and, you know, then she was with her and we had, you know, all these things. But, you know, during my addiction, I tried to do everything, you know, to make sure she was cool. I mean, I would be, I would be downstairs in the kitchen. We had a brownstone. So it's like a four, four-story brownstone. She slept on like the third level. So if I was in the kitchen cooking cocaine and sitting there smoking it, I was smoking it, I would take a hit.

And my brain would say, it's always choking in the covers. And I would like, run the steps, look in the room. Okay, she's okay. go back down to the kitchen she's choking in the covers now it's like oh shit so do you regret it now like when you look back

do you feel regret for that no hell no I was working out I was on stairmaster I was in great shape you know I was like I was just the best shape addict you could ever you know I was running up and down the stairs the highest functioning addict ever

I was going to work I had a job I was working on Broadway I was doing shit I was a functioning at it. So this podcast is though about being mad, but I know that you're American. So in the UK, mad means crazy and in America it means angry, I guess. Yeah. So I'm wondering, like, when we think of you, everyone thinks you're unflappable, are there things that would make you mad that could happen? Like I've got a list. Like if you miss your flight, got a parking ticket, lost your glasses.

Someone cut you up in the street. Like someone being rude to you. I'm bad in traffic. I'm really bad when I'm driving. I'd love to be shouted at you on the road by you on the road. A lot of people have been and they're always shocked when they see it's me. Get the fuck out of the way! Oh my God. He swore at me.

And they always say my whole name. They never go, oh my God, it's Sam. They go, oh my God, Samuel Jackson. Everyone says your whole name. Samuel Jackson. Always. Samuel Jackson. Yeah.

So, yeah, I'm bad in traffic. I'm, you know, I hate drivers. I'm in a whole Tesla move these days just because, you know, Tesla drivers think they're entitled or something. I don't know what the fuck happens when they buy a Tesla and they think they don't have to obey the rules of the road. They just found out that that was all kinds of morally wrong anyway. Oh, my God. It's like, what the hell?

They're just ridiculous. So, you know, I'm bad on the road. Do you think you use your anger productively? ever. I don't hold on to it. I mean, I like getting rid of it. I don't need to smold it. Y'all at people.

Just a good yelling. Yeah, just a good scream. You know, just let that shit out. And then, if you hold it, you hold it in. I'm going. I'm going. I've done it. You know, once I got it out, I'm good.

That sounds really healthy and not very English. I mean, I'm not English. No English people are like, keep it in and then explode. and then they wait for six months to finally talk to you again. Is that what happens? Yeah. See, I play golf, so. Everyone in his nodding going, yeah, that's what I happen.

I play golf, so we yelling curse a lot. On the golf course? Of course. Yeah, you let it out. Do you think that's a good way to diffuse? Hell yeah. Totally. I'm glad you found that thing.

Yeah, that's my outlet. You know, I mean, the time I spent playing golf used to be the time I spend getting high. So that's your new addiction? Yeah, totally. Yeah, but it's a good one. Yeah, it's brilliant. It's not hurting anyone.

Look, I play golf with a group of guys that we have so much fun. It's ridiculous. You know, and it's, we laugh, we shout, we scream, we, you know, we just have a good time out there, you know. That's so nice. Do you think being crazy stigmatized? See, that's my kid thing now. Yeah, you've got your inner child. You know, we're grown men, but we're kids.

We're out there and we see each other in the morning. We're like, ah, six in the morning. We're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're ready, you're ready. Yeah, let's go, let's go. We're like, ah, we get at it. When we go out there and we laugh, we talk. Shooting the shit.

Shooting the shit, gambling, having a great time. It sounds good, and it sounds like you've got something innocent that's good to hold on to. Yeah. Have you ever been crazy? I'm sure I was crazy Yeah my wife told me I was crazy When I was an addict So I'm pretty sure

But you weren't fully aware of it Not really Blackout Yeah Yeah I've done Yeah I used to wake up in crazy places

And be like Hmm What fuck am I How did this happen? Yeah I remember I've not done Like hard drugs ever But I've only done

Anesthetic Which unfortunately I really love And apparently Every time I wake up from my anesthetic, I say something really weird and I can't remember it. Like, I think once I was like, were they wanking to see if you wonder or something? Yeah. The guy. I love watching those things online.

You know, kids are waking up from having the teeth pulled or whatever. Yeah. You know, I have no idea what I've ever said. Yeah. But, you know, the doctor dope is good. It's nice. It's so good. It's so nice to have a rest.

Yeah. I mean, I have to think of a surgery. I need. Yeah. What do I need? What do I need? What do I need? Knock me out.

Yes, knock me out, please. I had one surgery where I had clogged arteries from smoking so much. And one surgery took like two hours. It was fine. And the next time I went, this one took like seven. And I woke up twice on the table. Wow.

Did you get freaked out? Or were you just like, I'm away, give me more? Oh, God. I don't know. I have to see the people with the goggles and the green and all this. and I hear somebody go, oh my God, he's awake. Oh, back to sleep. Do you feel like you've looked deaf in the face quite a lot of times?

Not on an operating table, but in other places. Yeah. Scary. Yeah. Some of it, yeah. Do you feel scary? The whole thing about your light passing before, you know, it's like, eh, not really. You know, everything does slow down, though.

I got dragged by, I got dragged by soap. train in New York, right? In 1990, I think. It got dragged by the A train. Wow. Fortunately, I was in the last door. I mean, I was in the middle door of the last car, and it was a long-ass train station. Yeah.

And when the door closed on my foot, train took off. So I'm sitting there thinking, I'm like, oh, fuck, I'm going to die. Because I could see the tunnel coming, and I couldn't figure out anything that I could grab or hold on to and get close to the train so I wouldn't get killed in the tunnel. So it just slowed down really, really slow

until all of a sudden the train stopped. And I didn't find out for two years what had happened because when I moved to California and come back to New York because I sued the transit system, you know, whatever. And when I got to court, I found out that the reason it took, I was a car and a half

in the tunnel. when it stopped. And the guy who pulled the emergency cord was on crutches. Everybody else in that was trying to open the door, get my foot out of the door, push and pulling, and turned to take my shoe off. And he was going to the emergency cord, and he finally pulled it and stopped it.

But, you know, think slow down when you're looking at death. Yeah. Or I've seen, you know, I've been in car accidents. And, you know, if I see them, it's almost like everything is slowing down and you know there's nothing you can do to, get out of the way. Do you feel fear? Do you feel scared or are you just embracing that moment? Well, I know when I was getting, when I was being dragged, I like to think of, well, it was going to be a really sad Christmas because it was like a few days before Christmas.

So I was going to miss my birthday and all that. You know, I was like, damn, it's going to be fucked up. It's going to be a fucked up Christmas this year. I was thinking all of that, you know, I was being dragged. Crazy. Does it make you existential? Hell is that? Like when you sort of think about existence, like what is it to be, what does it mean to be here and like what was I

taught by this experience? I'm black. I don't care, no. I'm black. I got my own problems, you know. Just being. I grew up in segregation, so I've been, you know, dealing with, you know, existential bullshit my whole life, you know. Yeah, like, what the fuck it was that about? When am I going to get out of here?

So I can go and see what the world is. I knew the world was different from the way I lived. Yeah, did you feel that you knew that it was different somewhere else? Hell yeah. We had a TV. I knew, you know, things were different and, you know, people lived a different way. Because even when I traveled, I would go from Tennessee to Washington, D.C., because my mom was working in D.C., and I lived with my grandparents in Tennessee.

So when I crossed whatever they called the Mason-Dixon land to get to D.C., I'd be in a city where black people and white people did the same shit. And what was that like? like then? I was like, oh, well, why is it different where I live, live? You know, but so when I went back home, you know, we didn't, you know, we knew there were places that couldn't go, the things I couldn't do, or science that said, don't do this. Don't bring your black ass in here or whatever, you know.

So the world was, it was, it was to me. And then I read, like I said, I read all the time. So I knew what was out here. So I figured, shit, maybe I could like get on. a boat somewhere. I could sign up and join, you know, get a job on a boat, a ship. And I can get out and I can see the world to be like a pirate or some shit, you know, but, you know, just working on the ship. So I knew that that was a different place out here and I wanted to be part of it. So I was anxious to get out here. And I feel like you contributed to making it better also,

right? Well, I don't know. You make your way through it, you know, so I made my way from, you know, that to, you know, I lived through that era. I lived through the war protests of Vietnam, you know. I was like in the draft because I had to enlist in a way for the draft. And then I went through the civil rights movement and all of that stuff. You go through that. And then, you know, I get out of that and I had that experience where, you know, the people at the FBI told my mom they need to get me out of Atlanta before they kill me. So then she did.

And I went to, you know, L.A. Totally different L.A. And, you know, 69 L.A. was like, who, you know, flower children and the whole, you know, bell bottoms and right clothes and free love. Yeah. Yeah. Did you love it? My God. Do you think 60s was the best decade?

I was 19 years old. Yeah. Well, you know, when you're 19, it's always the best decade. Yeah, that's true. You know, no matter what it is. Yeah. But the 60s, I do. I have major, like, FOMO for, I'm like, I wish I was there progress.

Because it just feels like now it's the opposite. It feels like we're on the decline. And I'm like, why am I in this bit, not the progressive bit? Yeah, but you were here, though. I mean, you would have been here. I mean, person like you, I mean, you would have hung out with Hendrix. I know. You know, you totally would have been a Hendricks person.

You know, that would have been, you know, a stone's person, hanging out with those people kicking it, you know, doing that. stuff. What did that feel like, though, feeling like you contributed to positive change? I don't know that, you know, I don't know that I did. I know that I did what I thought was right and I took part in it and that I used my voice and I used myself in a way, you know. You're still doing that though, right? Because you did the thing with Kendrick. Oh, well, I said, I didn't know. I didn't know that's what they were doing. Didn't you?

Well, it was kind of... And another thing. It was kind of trippy because when we were rehearsing, you know, we just had our clothes on. Yeah. And I was looking at the dancers and they were doing the do-do-do-do-dun-da-d-ass, doing the things and doing the stuff. And it wasn't until dress rehearsal that when I looked up and I looked on that stage and I go, oh, shit, that's a flag. Yeah. And he was doing that.

Oh, fuck. I'm in the civil rights movement again. We're being revolutionary. Because I wasn't listening to paying attention, you know, yeah, you picked the right person but the wrong time. And all that's like, yeah, the revolution. I was like, oh, shit. Okay, here I am again. But, you know.

But it was a great thing. Something about me or my persona has put me in the right place at the right time in a change of the zeitgeist in a way in a lot of different moments in my life. and I have to accept that that's what I'm meant to be sometimes, an agent of change, you know, whether I know it or not. It's so powerful. And to be proud of it and to know that, you know, God has placed me in a place that I can be influential and a real and positive and kind of awesome, you know, thing for the masses, you know, because people need things.

When you speak, people listen as well. Yeah, but I always want to be on the right side of history, you know, in terms of what's going on. And sometimes it's not my choice, you know, the powers that be have decided, okay, this is who you are because, you know, me standing there going, hey, salutations, it's me, your uncle, Sam. You know, it's like, I was just, you know, this is cute. I want to, you know, Kendrick them hired me to do this.

And my name is Sam. So I said, yeah, I'm Uncle Sam. But then I realized. Layers. You're being put in this place for a reason and you're dressed this way for a reason. And, you know, you are part of change. This is, this is an awesome moment of change for people sitting there watching a game. Or people who don't turn on until halftime because all they want to see is halftime.

they go, wow, boom. And it was like, phew. It was so important. I know. It was so important and so short, you know. It's amazing how much influence you can have in such a short space of time if the platform's there. Yeah. That's why sometimes I struggle when people have a platform, they don't use it.

Then you think, oh, why? Like, do you think we are responsible for each other? Of course. I do too. Yeah. I think many people think would answer no to that question. That's why we're in this mess. No, no, we're responsible for each other.

We're here. I mean, we're a herd, and they just don't deal with it that way. You know, I mean, as human beings, I guess the power of thought and being able to make a choice about certain things, you know, has kind of fucked us up in another kind of way. You know, if, you know, all the rhinos do what rhinos do, you know, all the elephants get together and they're smart. You know, they take care of each other and they do and they relate to the other animals. They don't attack them, you know. Everybody's cool with everybody out in a while, basically, until you get hungry, you know, and everybody understands that. You know, everybody can't live.

Somebody got to go. So they can eat. We can eat here. We can eat here. The vegetarians are cool. But, you know, they get eating too. But when you guys go over here. in the caves, you know, that were like people, people got together and decided they didn't like those people over there and the other place because they had more shit.

So we're going to go over there and get some of that rather than saying, hey, y'all think we could like hook up together and like, you know, gross and shit. And do something to go. Yeah, right. You know, but that's not how it works, you know, you know. Have you done therapy? No, I talked to this guy that lives in here. You're your own therapist. Yeah, I'm my own therapist, yeah.

I don't need to go back and like have shit dredged up. You remember, we're going to go deep into your memory bank now. No, fuck you're not. I'm good. I'm good out here with. Leave it alone. I'm good with the problems I have right now. I don't want to go back and revisit the problems I think I had then because I'm sure, yes, I was traumatized.

Yes, you know, I got hit with things. I got whipped, you know, I got whippings. And, you know, I was, you know, I was put in my place and a whole other kind of way than people do it now. It amazes me when grown people have arguments with kids. What? Because they have a back and full. Yeah. You're like, you're allowed to answer?

What? What? I said, mm-mm. I used to get looks, you know, it would be a look. And I remember, like, when I was smaller, smaller, being in church, you know, we had birds were to come in the window. And my mom was just like, pab! She would just hit me.

For looking up? She would hit me right here because I was whistling. Oh, yeah. In church. And she would hit me in the front. front and the pew would hit me in the back. So it would be like, pat,

and it's like, bam. And she's like, yeah, and she's like, that's a concussion. Just so many times. So,

yeah, it's just stuff, you know, but it's, it's part of parenting, it's part of growing up, it's part of understanding that, you know,

the world has edges. Do you believe in generational trauma? Yeah, of course. Like lessons. Yeah. Because I read something recently that said it takes five generations to erase trauma. So sometimes you think you're experiencing something and you don't know why.

You're like, why am I so upset about this? But it might not be something you've had. It's from generations before. Oh, really? Yeah. I'm experiencing, you know, because my grandmother's mother was a slave. So she just missed it, you know. So I could have trauma from all those years of people or even the goodness.

So what about the goodness? You know, you don't know. But I don't know. I actually, I did this documentary a few years ago called Inslave and I had traced my ancestry back to Gabon. So I actually went to Gabon and got reintegrated into my tribe. Wow. How did that feel? It was cool.

But going through that ceremony and hearing who they are. And at times when you get to, I was standing on this beach that, you know, they told me, you know, where the people, the enslaved people saw the ships for the first time, not knowing what they were. You know, the ships were out there in the water that they were going to be taken away on. And they had no clue. They had no clue that was getting ready to happen. But just standing in that spot and looking out on the ocean and imagining what that was, like, wow. It blows your mind. Yeah.

It's like, you know, and that was the first time I understood the whole thing about being, being, being in a place and survivor's remorse. That's the first time I'd experienced it and thinking of what that was that. But when you say generational trauma. Generational trauma is, it's pretty much the same thing as survivor's remorse, you know, that I'm here, because somebody else, you know, didn't make it or somebody died or they got taken to a place, you know. And I'm fortunate enough to come back and say,

this is where I came from. But you've done amazing things to counter that. You've excelled in ways that are unimaginable and you've contributed to society and you've made great change. You have. You've really... Okay.

Yeah. Well, that's my service. You know, I mean, you know, service is the price we pay for being on, for being on earth. Alive. Yeah. We all owe each other and the world things. We're supposed to be in service to, you know, each other out here. We're supposed to do things that, you know, enhance the life or the world that creates change.

That's a positive version of change. And I was raised in that, you know, knowing, you know, that that was a group. of people who, you know, wanted me to be a certain way and wanted me to stay in a certain place in my life and don't, don't engage with me in any way other than me telling you what to do or what not to do. And I can see that happening again, in a way, in my country, which is like, now, today. Yeah, of course. Yeah.

But it's... Do you think it makes you sad? In a way, but it's... It's just... bad for, you know, the world. It's bad for humanity in that way. It doesn't serve humanity. Yeah, there's enough of that stuff going on in the world, you know, in other places. And we're not making it a better place by doing what it is we're doing. You know, we're regressing and not progressing, you know, and that's saddening. It is a sad thing that. It is a sad thing that,

the world's turning the way it is. I remember calling you and I was like, hi, we haven't speak to each other like once every three, four years or something. And I was like, hi, how's it going? I said, I'm really disappointed by America and the world. And what's happening? You went, we can't even begin to deal with that right now. Exactly.

Because it's just so overwhelming and saddening. Yeah. But, you know, but that's the way it happens. Like, I remember when Obama was first elected, I was over here doing something. And everybody was so happy, they had to like, you know, oh my God, America.

He's going to save us. You guys are so amazing. You elected this black guy president. Now I was kind of looking at him like. What happened afterwards? What do you think going to happen? I mean, because he's there. I mean, that doesn't make us a better country, you know.

Well, it's shame. It's the same way everything else is. You know, when people vote, they vote. They vote the way they vote. But, I mean, yeah, there were a lot of people voted for. but that was still like 50 million people that didn't. And where were they? They voted for the other guy.

You know, so there's 50 million people that aren't happy. The same way it is right now. Are you shocked? Shot by what? That that's happening. No. I told you, I grew up in segregation. I grew up in American apartheid.

You're like this again. Yeah. I'm not shot. No, I'm not shot by it. It's the world. It's the way people are. There are always people who are trying to do something to keep the huddle masses in their place.

Because they need us. They need us to work. They need us to do stuff. It's like in America, what you're saying in California? It's like, well, shit, it's almost strawberry season. Who's fucking be bent over out in the strawberry pet, picking up the strawberries,

you know? Definitely not these white people that are kicking them out of the country. Who are going to pick the strawberries? No, they're blaming the wrong people as well. Who's going to pick the lettuce? You know, who's going to be out there doing this? These are the people that come to the country every year. and y'all pay them less money

and they work their asses off for you. You know? And now you're like, well, no, you can't come in here. Well, who the fuck? Don't pick the peaches. We should be angry at the 1% not the, this is deflection.

Well, yeah, you don't ask the right question. You ask the wrong questions all the time when they start that and they do that shit. You know, so I can't get started in politics. This podcast called Mad, Sad and Bad. And I feel like with addiction, that's something that a lot of people would call a bad thing. Like, do you think it is?

The thing for me is when people say to me, you really should go and talk to people because, you know, you overcame your addiction and you succeeded and that I said, but I'm like, I can't go and tell them how bad addiction is because I had a great fucking time. At the time. I was bawling out when I was, you know, until I wasn't.

You know, that's how it goes, you know. Well, a lot of people say you either choose to die on it or you choose to live. So did it get to that point? I wasn't struggling with my addiction like that. You know what I mean? Yes, I was addicted, but I wasn't struggling because I had enough money to afford.

Well, I was buying shit. I wasn't stealing shit out of the house. Yeah. I wouldn't taking shit from anybody. I wouldn't borrow money. You weren't being horrible to people together. I wasn't being horrible to people. I was sad because when I was understudying this play,

at the throes of my addiction, when I was understudying this play that I had done at Yale, I had done the lead in this play in the original form. And then when they got the Broadway, the guy the play was written for was doing it. And I was, his understudy, and I was sitting on the back steps of the theater, listen to them, do it, listen to the play. I'm like, that's not how you do it? I'm like, and then they want Tony's and they got all kind of shit, you know.

And then I just broke. And that's when, you know, my wife found me, passed out on the floor and, you know. Was that the breaking point that was like, now I'm not doing this? Well, no, she called my best friend from high school was a, a drug counselor. She called him to say, you know, I don't know what, he said, I'll find a room in a rehab place for him. So the next day, I was in rehab the next day.

Was that shit? Well, it was 28 days of hell. Yeah. You know, and then I got jungle fever. So when I was getting out, I knew I was going to work. You know, and they were like, well, you don't need to do that because you're going to have pipes in your hand. You're going to have lighters and all your triggers and you're going to be right back in here.

And I said, if for no other reason and I never want to see. see you motherfuckers ever again, I will not be bad. And you had to play the role of an addict. Yeah. And you knew exactly what you were doing to play that role. I had done all the research. I was ready to go, you know. So, and at that particular time, you know, everybody in America had a gator in their

house or in their family somewhere. What's a gator? That's who my character was. He was just crack at it. Oh, yeah. If you had a crack at it, you had somebody who came in their house, stole your shit, or I told you a lie about something and got some money from you.

They, you know, addicts, crack addicts, in my opinion, burned up all their relationships. Yeah. With other people, like he was doing with his mother and father, the Reverend Doctor and his mom. So I was talking to Spike about that's what I want to do. I don't want to just be, you know, smoking and be fucked up and saying crazy shit.

Let me find a way to get in here so the people can look at them and see, oh, man, that's my brother. That's my cousin. That's my husband. And that's my, you know. Relatable. Relatable. So everybody had a gator, you know.

So that's what got me in Hollywood. And, you know, at that point, that was the first time I had ever done, I had ever performed without a substance in my body. Wow. When I did that movie. Do you think you've ever done anything bad? Like, do you look back and think, I've done a couple of bad things? And does that word bother you?

Or do you think is bad authenticity or something? thing because everyone else is pretending to be something else. Hmm. Hmm. Yes, but nothing I would confess to. Yeah. You know, I mean, just the way. Yeah, I mean, yeah, sure.

Yeah, I've done something bad. I've done things that were bad. Because a lot of people associate you with being a badass before they would think you were a bad person. You play a lot of quite bad characters. Well. But they're lovable. But that's another thing.

I always tell people, if, if you make the character a human, somebody sitting there is going to go, oh, man, I understand that. I get why he feels that way. I get why he's doing that. You know, it's like even when I was doing, when Quentin called me about doing Stephen in Django, I was like, so you want me to be the most despicable Negro in cinematic history? And he was like, well, yeah. I was like, okay, I can do that. But understand something.

People are going to like that guy. I'm going to do all the despicable things and people are going to like him because I've pretty much never done a bad guy that people don't like because I do human shit. Yeah. I always go,

I always approach it as, you know, he's a person that's just looking at it from this angle, you know, but if you go home with him and you watch you make a peanut butter sandwich, you go, I make my peanut butter sandwich like that.

Oh, shit, look up like that. Oh, he spreads it that way or not that way. They live their lives. So, you know, you give them, a humanity that an audience can look at and go, oh, I know what, oh, I know I sympathize, I empathize or sympathize with this guy, whatever it is. But you always want to do something to give the human that people are sitting there looking at an opportunity to be their friend or not be their friend.

So interesting. And we're all capable of all things, really, because we haven't been in the circumstance where we might, people who say, I never kill anyone. And you're like, there might be a situation where you would. You never know. But, you know, we're performers. And what happens is I was, you know, I was taught that be so good when you show up that when you leave, people want to go with you.

And when you lead the stage and go, oh, shit. I want to go with him. Or I miss that character. I don't even want to watch the rest of this. I want to go, where, where's, where's he going? Yeah. So you always want that feeling of being. that interesting person or you come out there and you give them something to make them go,

oh man, wow, that was, oh, where's he going now? And then you come back and they're happy to see you, you know, so yeah, doing bad things, a bad thing, let me say this, that there are, there are times when you're in a circumstance in your life and you have to make a choice. if I do this, will things be okay? Or if I don't do anything, we're going to stay in this fucked up place. So depending on the circumstance, yeah, you know, yeah, I've done bad things. I've taken things and I shouldn't have taken and done things. Or, you know, I've never hurt anyone for, you know, gain or anything else, even in, even in vengeance.

You know, none of it. I never just hurt somebody for no reason. But yeah, I've done things that I needed to do. And like I said, I'm an only child. So I have a whole bunch of to my graves that I'm just going to take it. Nobody needs to know that. I'm just going to neck out. How can you do that like that?

I'm an only child, you know. Secrets are only good between three people and two of them got to be dead. That's such a good quote. That's it. So like to end after telling me all the. mad, sad and bad anecdotes. What really makes you glad? What do you think there is in this world to be happy about?

The arts is one of those things. I actually read this thing this morning and made me so happy. It was like, when children are born, they learn to paint before they learn to write words or babies sing before they learn to speak words. And when they start walking, they start dancing. before they do anything or even understand music, you know. And the arts are flourishing in another kind of way, you know,

that as much as people try to, those powers, try to suppress what's going on or make us sad. We have music, you know, we have dance, and we have, you know, theater, and we have painting and art. We have all these things that are expressions of who we are that make us feel good. The light in the cracks.

Yeah, that, you know, take us away from the bullshit and gives us an opportunity to just, you know, look at something and go, oh, damn, that makes you feel so good. Look at this painting. Art makes me happy, you know, and artistic expression makes me happy, you know. I'm really happy about my wife's play, you know.

Yeah. It's so good and she's so good in it. And it's that. It's that for me. I mean, it's what I do. Yeah, I'm an artist. And I'm glad to be an artist and grateful and thankful that I'm able to work and express myself or make choices that apparently people like. I mean, I've been fortunate to me in a lot of big old franchise, you know, things like Marvel and Star Wars and stuff like that.

But, you know, I picked a little wacky movies to do like snakes on the plane or hitman's bodyguard. Things that make me happy that I would have gone to the movie to see. You know, people go, how do you choose your scripts? You're so good at it, though. If you're attached, you know it's good. Something I wanted to see me in. See, because back when I was doing theater, I always wanted to see the play I was in with me in it.

Yeah. Are there any roles you wish you haven't had yet that you'd like to do? No. You've done everything. I have not done everything. I mean, things that come. They just crop up. Yeah.

Things that come are things that come. And, uh, when you have the opportunity to make choices, you have an opportunity to either be a success or be a failure. So you can make choices that are bad. And, you know, you do bad movies. So you can make choices. Like I said, I do movies that I want to go see. I do popcorn movies.

I don't do movies that, you know, I'm going to get an Oscar for, a statue for. You know, I got an Oscar, but I got an Oscar because I've done so many movies, which is fine. You know, an honorary Oscar. Yes, an Oscar, fine. But I don't, you know, pick a movie and go, I'm going to an Oscar if I do this. Oh, God, no. Do people do that? Fuck, yeah.

Do they? Wow. Yeah. People like that statue chasing all the time. Do you think you're a workaholic? You know what? I could be. But as an actor, there's only a limited number of roles you're going to do in your lifetime.

And, you know, like I said, you know, writers get up every day and write, painters get up every day and paint. Painers get up every day in paint. Dancers get up every day and dance. I only get up every day and act. So if I have the opportunity to do it, I do it. That's why, you know, somebody, I miss going to auditions. My agent's going to say, you're not auditioning anymore. It's a chance to act for somebody.

That's what I keep saying, just get me an audition so I can have a go acting because I miss it. Yeah. Yeah. So, no, I'm not a workaholic. I'm just a hardworking actor, you know. fortunate actor. Fortunate actors work all the time. Yeah, but you waited and you played your juice and now look at you.

I didn't wait. I was working my love what was happening. I was doing theater. Yeah, but you waited for your flowers. Oh, my God. I hate this statement so much. Sorry, I've ruined it at the last minute. I was doing so well.

Let's get her as flowers while he's still here. I hate that shit because I didn't start coming to house sometimes and my wife's got, you know, it's like Mother's Day or like opening night from her play. it was like, oh my God. It was like so many flowers. And three days later, it was like, you know, a funeral home. Oh, no. Every flower in there was like, we're not dead yet.

Every flower in there was like, I had enough. I had enough of joy. I was like, get me out of here. You know, so, yeah, I don't need my flowers. I just, you know, this. This is what it is. You know, when people go, what is the best thing about what you do? And I remember telling them,

Now, when I was a kid, my mom wasn't there. I was in the house of my grandmother, my aunt, and my grandfather. My aunt was a performing arts person. So when they had to do pageants and plays and shit, they always put her in charge. And she never had enough boys, and I lived in the house with her. So she put me in shit. So I was learning things and dancing because she taught dance. I was tap dancing and doing this, that, and crying the whole time.

But at the end, you know, I was like, oh, my God. You're so cute. That never gets old. The validation. Come on. Yeah. It's addictive. And like I said, I was a little black kid living on a place where I was being told I was inadequate and will never be enough and all of that.

And I was doing a thing that told me I was special. You know. And that. Let's give him one. All the time. It never gets told. I coerced you into making me feel good. No, I love it.

Look at it. It was all worth it for that. That's why I was here for the applause. Same. That was amazing. Thank you. Oh, my pleasure. You're the best.

I do feel very privileged. Stop it. I do. All right, all right. Thank you so much for coming. It's been the dopest time. I didn't expect it to be this dope, but it was. Come on.

You're going to get in. podcast now? I'm not. If you're still going to be the only one, it'll be rare. How about that? I'm so glad. Aren't I privileged. See you love.

Bye, darling. Don't get lost in East London. No, I won't. Bye. Bye. He's never going to do another podcast again. Did you hear that? Well, wasn't that great?

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