Magic: The Gathering Drive to Work Podcast - #1274: The History of Tokens

Episode Date: September 5, 2025

This podcast is a companion to my three-part Making Magic series on the history of tokens. You can read the third and final column on Monday, September 8.

I'm pulling on my driveway. We all know what that means. It's time for another drive to work. Okay, so in my article, Making Magic, I'm doing a three-part series about the history of tokens. So what I'm going to be doing in this podcast is I'm not, so what I do in my article is I go set by set and talk about every innovation I can see where I think,

how tokens have evolved as a design tool. And I get pretty granular. I'm sure I miss a few tiny things, but I'm pretty good about talking about when we do something we haven't done before. And early on in the article, it talks a lot about individual card design. And by the end, I'm talking like mechanic design.

So my goal of today is this is a supplemental podcast that goes along with the three-part series. So there'll be a little bit of overlap, meaning that there's some material I will cover in both, but the idea is the article is a little more are run through of what happened and today's podcast is a little more

of analysis. So really what I want to talk about is tokens as a design tool. They have become a very, very big design. I mean, as three weeks, the fact that I can write three weeks of articles about it should demonstrate that there's a lot going on.

So I want to talk a little bit about why tokens, why do they exist, why do they start, and how they've evolved over time. That's today's topic. Okay, so tokens begin back at the very beginning of magic in Alpha. So one of the things I think Richard was really interested in when he made Alpha was he really wanted to sort of test some boundaries of what the game could do. So there are a lot of cards in Alpha, like single cards that do something that end up becoming a whole, swath of area of design that Richard just did one card

and a lot of what I can tell is when you sort of make a card game like magic there's a lot of possibilities and part of what Alpha was showing was the just the range that the game could be and Richard really enjoyed

poking in a lot of areas in fact some of the areas he poked into ended up being stuff like we put off to Silverboarder like Chaos Orb or you flip a card in the air like physical, you know, dexterity. And that's something the game has sort of moved away from outside, you know, on cards. But anyway, one of the cards he made was called the hive. And so the idea of the hive was it represented a hive,

but not one creature. It was a hive worth of wasps. And the idea was that this one hive could make mini wasps. Okay, but how exactly do you do that? And so Richard, obviously, a fan of gaming and games, and there's a lot of games where you use extra components. You have little pieces. And the idea was, well, what if the card did something

and then you used something else to represent it? Like, this card made more things than a single card could represent. And I think in Richard's mind, it's like, oh, okay, go get whatever, you know, coins in your pocket, whatever you need, just something that can represent this. And the really interesting about it, which I think is why tokens have had the longevity they've had, is this idea that a card can produce more content than a card. It's very interesting. And a lot of what token design is, is the reason I think R&Ds embrace it so much is twofold.

One is, from a design standpoint, it just opens up so much possibility. There's so much design space in it. And the other part of it is the popularity, and I'll get into the popular of the hive in a second. But players really, really like tokens that are very popular. So the idea was that, okay, I had this card. It can produce multiple things that are made by the card. And the very first thing Richard made with tokens was creatures. The hive were one-one flying creatures, not even just vanilla.

They were flying creatures because they weren't wasps. And, you know, I think that Richard sort of early on, I don't think he was thinking necessarily of this is the groundswell of all this stuff as much as like, oh, I need to make this card. How do I make this card? Okay, well, here's the tools available to make this card. You know, Richard also made a couple cards that used counters on them. And it's like, well, I need to track something. Okay, I guess you'll put something on the card to track it. I think Richard was like, okay, you know, the magic was pretty condensed and all you need. with a card. So like, okay, I'm willing to let you, you know, I think the way he thought about it, I use change in your pocket as an example, which is, okay, you probably have something you're carrying on you, change in your pocket, that, okay, I have a few, if I need to mark something on a card or mark something as a token, I got a few things in my pocket I could use. That, that's not hard, and that there weren't a lot of, in fact, Alpha had one cards that made tokens. I had a couple cards made counters, but there, there wasn't a lot there. I mean, as I'll get

into. Eventually, we recognized the value of them and started making tokens, but we'll get there. Token cards. Okay, so Richard made the hive. Now, one of the things we remember about Alpha, and I've talked about the hive and other podcasts, it was insanely popular. It was, you know, the, there was something about the coolness of making tokens that was instantly, instantly sort of recognized as something really cool. Like, I remember the day that I opened the hive in a booster pack

and I was so excited because I knew that that was the only way I was going to get a... No one would trade me the hive. It was very, very popular. So anyway, Richard makes that. Then in Arabian Nights, so the story is, Richard makes Alpha, it sells much better than expect,

and so they have to fast track making some expansions. They go to Richard. Richard quickly makes Arabian Nights based on, inspired by a Sandman comic, Sandman 50, I believe. But anyway, it's inspired by Athousan Arabianites, you know, just sort of Persian stories,

Middle Eastern stories. And in it, he makes two more cards. First is he makes Rook Egg. And Rook Egg is, I think it's 0.3. It's a creature that when it dies, or maybe it's a 0-1. It's a creature that when it dies, it's probably a 0-1.

When it dies, it hatches, and it makes a rook, which is a four-four flying creature. And then there was a bottle of Sulamein, which you had, I think it cost four, and then one to activate. Then you flipped a coin. And either it did five damage to you, or you got a five-five flying gin. A little higher variance than we do these days. But in each case, Richard was like, I have a cool idea. I like the idea of an egg that is harmless. But when it dies, it hatches into this powerful flying, I mean, sort of a dragon, a rook.

And the idea I had this, you know, a bottle that a genie can come out of. But maybe the genie helps me, maybe the genie hurts me. Like, you don't know. And each of those cases, just the token was the thing to let him make it. And that's another sort of through line today about tokens is that the tokens just allow card design that you can't do without them. that there's just a lot of really neat space. And both Rook Egg and Bottle Sulameen were interesting designs. So the next set, Antiquities, makes Tetravis.

So Tetravis was a 1-1 creature with flying that comes with three plus-1-1-counters. And then, during upkeep, I think, you can move the counters on or off. And if you move them off, they become 1-1-flying creatures that can't be enchanted. Tetravite tokens. Or you can move them back on, so they come off and on.

Tetovus is really, really popular. Tetravus and Triskeleon, probably the two, the ones I remember being the most popular out of the gate. There's some powerful cards that's all out of play, but those are the two sort of fan favorites. And interestingly, one uses counters. They both use counters, I guess, and one uses tokens. Also interesting, by the way,

Antiquities has the fourth token card, token-making card, and up to that point, all of them fly. All of the tokens fly. It's interesting to know. But anyway, as you can start to see just an early thing, the designers are figuring out, okay, these tokens just allow cool things. So we get to Legends, and Legends actually starts just, we said, this is important enough. We're going to name them.

We're going to stop defining what tokens are, because the early cards had to tell you, okay, make a token. In fact, it's funny. The hive refers to them as tokens. I believe the two cards in Arabia Knights refer to them as counters and then there are tokens again by the time you get to antiquities

and by time to get legends token becomes a game turn that if you make a token or create would come later but if you make a token the idea that so one of the things that the early token cards establish

is a couple things one is that you are making this thing this permanent creature in this case but tokens could not be not be creatures you're making this permanent a creature that is going to coexist

outside the existence of the hive if you destroy the hive this thing still goes around the rook egg dies in this token so the rook egg's long gone before the token gets there same with you have to sacrifice the bottle the idea that the token is separate from

the thing that makes it was key and the other big thing was when it goes to the graveyard poof it disappears why does it disappear well there's no thing to represent it, that I can't track a thing, like, Richard understood that it's one thing in play on the battlefield to have like a coin or a glass bead or a dye or something, but there's no way really to represent that inside the graveyard. So the idea was, when it leaves the battlefields for whatever reason, it just goes away. And that was established very early with the hive.

So those qualities of the idea that it can stand on its own, it's its own thing, you can tap it, like, it's a permanent. Like, it's not a card, but it is a permanent. Just the idea that is true. And then what happens when it goes away? So, in legends, when they define what a token is, those qualities are baked into it. That it's represented by something that's not a card,

that thing exists on its own, and that if it goes away, if it goes to any other zone, it just goes away. I believe, by the way, in the early, early days, I don't think we had the rule that it went to other zones and then disappeared. eventually what we did is the rules now

this isn't in my article for a while tokens didn't trigger death triggers because they didn't go to the graveyard and then eventually we realized it was so non-intuitive because we talked about things dying like well don't they die they die they go away

that we change the rules so the tokens go to the graveyard but then sort of dissipate the second they hit the graveyard meaning they trigger death triggers which they do And a lot of things, one of the things that's interesting in the article is a lot of what happens in the early days of token making is we try to do something, usually inspired by, here's a cool card design. Like Legends did a couple cool things. One was Stang.

Well, Stang wanted to make a twin. So the idea is when you cast Stang, you're really getting two stang, not one stang. But where does the second Stang come from? Okay, we'll make a token. But because they're intertwined, the idea that Stang is. and his twin, if one dies the other die, they're interconnected together. Same with Hazan Tamar,

which has these sand creatures. And the idea is, it makes them a number of creatures, and it's a variable. It's the first time we did a variable. We're like, oh, you get a number of sand counters equal to the number of lands you have. And those, it's Hazan Tamar that is bringing

the sand to life, that, you know, he's making sand warriors. But if he goes away, the sand, they just go back to sand. So the idea is the tokens go away when he goes away. So the idea that you can have tokens that are innerly tied. Yeah, tokens coexist by themselves,

but you can have one like staying or like Hazan that have a connectivity to the thing that creates them. Or maybe to something else. These ones are that create them. Also, there's Master the Hunt that made sort of different wolf tokens. And then they had bands with other wolves,

meaning so far, the only tokens we had made, had flying. But you know what? You can have other qualities. So the wolves have bans without a wolves and what's the called? What's it called?

Is it snake pit? So there's a I'm blinking the name of it. There's a card in legends that makes poison snakes. So legends introduce the idea of poison. There's two cards. There's pit scorpion and I'm blinking the name of it. and the artifact that makes the snakes.

But the idea is that when they hit you, they deal. Essentially, it was kind of poisonous without defining the word poisonous yet. But the idea is when they hit you, you get a poison. And 10 poison, you lose the game. That was, you know, a brand new thing. Kind of one of the earlier alt-win conditions. I guess the first alt-win condition probably was in antiquities,

which was, that's where Millstone first showed us. But milling was a core part of the game, meaning milling was baked into the game from the very beginning. Poison, I think it was the first time that other than doing something that's built into the base game, which is going to zero or not being able to draw a card, could you lose? And so, anyway, so the real part of this is designers realize that tokens have a lot of design potential on them. So the first set that really goes all in on tokens, I would say it would be Fallen Empire. and tokens and counters. So much so that when Fallen Emper's came out

in the Dueless, the magazine that the Magic magazine at the time, there was actually a punch-out sheet that came in the Dueless that had all the tokens and counters you needed. There were five main factions. Each color had its own faction. And then there were two different creature types that mattered for each of the factions.

And then for each color, for each faction, there was one card that made tokens of that faction. And so, you know, saparlings, the first time a sapling got made, thralls got made, there were goblins. So there were, you know, really you're starting to see the designers go. Counters are not just an individual card thing. Like you can shape larger designs around them. So I think the first, mostly what happens, and if you read my article, you can see, is just we start leaning more and more into it.

Oh, another important thing before I get to starting to make creature mechanics out of tokens. Okay, so in 1998, I'm given a fun assignment. So Bill Rose and Joel Mick come up with the idea of a set that is not tournament legal. It has a silver border.

And they came to me and they said, okay, we're not sure what you do with this, but what can you do if you don't have to worry about being played in tournaments? And so I came up the idea unglued. And one idea that I was very fascinated by. I used to do, when I say magic, I don't mean the game magic. I mean magic tricks.

I used to be a magician when I was a kid. I would do tricks for kids' parties, do shows. The Whiz Kid, that was my magic name. So anyway, there was one of the things you can get when you're, there's a lot of tricks you can buy. And there's a lot of card tricks you get. So one, there's a company that sold lots of card tricks. And one of the things they sold was a deck.

And the deck wasn't specifically a card trick. It just had a lot of interesting cards in it. For example, it had like a black three of diamonds or a seven and a half of clubs. You know, it just had cards that like weren't quite normal. There's something quirky about them. And the idea was that you, the magician, could sort of pick and choose, and you could kind of make your own tricks. Like, is it fun to, like, you know, maybe do a car trick where I have your card, it's the seven of clubs, where you're just messing around with it in some way. And I really liked the idea that there just was a lot of different functionality there.

So combine that with, I went to the very first Japanese Grand Prix. We, how much of Wizards people went. And I noticed that there were players that were using trading cards from other trading cards, not from magic, to represent tokens that they had. And maybe I'm trying to remember if any of them... I remember people were playing with cards that represented things. And so I was making...

I'm glued, I'm like, well, I know tokens are a thing, and right now there's no way to represent tokens with cards. I go, what if I just made some cards that represented tokens? And so I picked a bunch of ones that were pretty popular. And then what I also did at the time was I didn't label them. I just put pictures on them. I didn't put power toughness on them. Like one of the ones I made was, like, it's a soldier.

But it could be a warrior or it could be a Kildoran, wherever Kildoran was. Like, it could be whatever you wanted it to be. It's white, you know, is a white token. And I made one sheep token and one squirrel token. Sorry, I made a squirrel token. The squirrel token was for there's a card in the set that made squirrel token. So I made a squirrel token. But anyway, I made actual tokens.

I made actual card tokens. So what happened years later is the magic brand team decides that they want to start advertising inside the magic booster, make ad cards. Now, the idea was it was only advertising elements of the game. It wasn't advertising other products. But like, oh, are you aware that gathering? exists. Are you aware that there's certain other products you might enjoy? It just was sort of making

Magic Players more aware of other magic things. Because one of the things we learn is the only place you could advertise that we 100% new Magic Players would see was in Magic Boosters. So when they added the ad card, they came to us and said well look, we're planning to advertise on the card, but

the back of the card could be like if you guys want to use it. Like if R&D has some function for it, you can use the back of the card. And one of the things we chose to do with that was make token cards. We did other, there's other rule things we did, play aids, but we chose to make token cards. And the reason for that was, A, we were recognizing how we were using tokens more and more. And B, the unglued tokens have been very popular.

And so it sort of said, okay, we should start doing that. So we're starting to put tokens into boosters. So sometime around that time, I'm not exactly sure when tokens started going to boosters. also something I did not specifically put in my article. So in Miriden besieged, we were trying to figure out the first time we had been to Myrdon, equipment got created for the first time. And so we were trying to do something with equipment. We were back in Mirrodin, but Miriden was fighting with the Frexians.

And Mirrenrenne Beseecher is all about how the phrexians, there's a war for the fate of mirroden. In fact, we didn't even tell the audience what the outcome of the war was going to be. And the third said was either going to be Miriden Pure, meaning Miriden 1, or New Ferrexie, meaning New Ferrexie 1. Spoiler, New Ferrexie 1. So, in it, we were trying to show how the phrexians were warping the items of Mirren, because the phrexians come in and they sort of make you into them, right? They start absorbing your people and your things and your technology. So the idea we came up with was called Living Weapon. So living weapon was you made these zero zero black germs, but then you automatically equipped the equipment to it. And all

the equipment had granted you usually power and toughness, at least toughness. So the idea is that it was an equipment that you could count as a creature essentially because when you played it, it right away was a creature. You didn't have to equip it to anything. Now, if the creature died, if the germ died, the equipment stayed and you could equip it to something. something else. But living weapon, I believe, was the very first time that we make a mechanic that has a counter built into it. Meaning, in order to play this whole mechanic, not a card, like one of the things, I mean,

for many years in magic, look, certain cards make tokens. You don't want to play tokens. Don't play those cards. Obviously, something like phone empires and like sapperlings, the thralls, the thralls and sappelin. There were different things that were very ingrained. there were themes that used tokens like you can't play like a sapling deck without having tokens

and stuff like goblins I mean there definitely were decks that were more and more leaning toward having access to tokens but if you really didn't want to play it you didn't have to you know if you didn't play that card but we started realizing that how much players were really embracing tokens and we were starting to make tokens and so oh before we put tokens in pack

we started making tokens as stuff we would give away in stores So yeah, before tokens became something that happened like they were popular in Unglued and then we started doing them as a giveaways like store promos and things and then eventually we started putting them into boosters. Living Weapon is just like one of the evolutions of counters

is, okay, they're so useful, we're going to start building a whole mechanics with them. So Living Weapon, I believe, was the first one. And it really sort of grew from there. Now, one of the next big innovations, which became pretty important, was in Shadows over Inestrade. So at the time, so we decided on a return to Inestrade. This is back when we first start doing returns.

We're like, oh, let's really shake up our returns so they're not too similar. We later learned actually people like them to be more similar. But anyway, instead of doing Gothic core, we decided to do Cosmic Corps. and part of cosmic horror is it always starts with you know weird disturbances so we decided the first set shadows of interstrade would be the investigation

set we're like oh what strange things are happening and then you learn about all the weird things in Eldridgeamon so the second set it was a two block set you learn about all the weird things and emircles there and these warping things and mutating things you know but anyway we wanted to have a mechanic called

investigate because it was all about the first set was all about investigation shadows of interstrapes. All about investigation. Jay showed up. He's wearing his detective outfit. And so we said, okay, well, what exactly does investigate do? And our thought process was, well, draw a card kind of hits me like, I investigate. Well, what do I gain? Knowledge. How do I represent knowledge? Cards. The problem was, there's just only so much card drawing we can do in the set. And blue is really good at drawing cards. Other colors, not quite as efficient at drawing cards.

So we said to ourselves, how do we draw half a card? That's what we wanted. Is there a way to draw half a card? And so we ended up with this idea of what if we made an artifact token? And the artifact token was something that you then had to spend mana in sacrifice to get a card.

So you know, two in sacrifice to get a card. And that was a cool way to get mana. Now I should stress, the very first non-creature token actually shows up in FutureSight. In fact, on ivory mask, I think it's called. It basically is an enchantment you put on yourself

and then you put on all your... You make a copy of it and put it on all the other players. So it makes an enchantment, actually. The first non-creature tokens and the enchantment token. But then during Theros block, we start making gold tokens. I think two cards make gold tokens. One of which is like King Might. It's our version of King Might.

It's that turns things into gold. So we like the idea of, hey, we're using tokens to represent creatures. There's no reason we can't represent other things. And so we start making artifact tokens. But the important thing of Shadows of Interstrod was this wasn't just, oh, we're using artifact tokens. It became a backbone. Like, there's a whole mechanic built around it. And then just clue tokens, because investigating me the clue tokens,

Clue tokens became the structural element of the set. Because what we learned is, well, you can sack them for cards, but you could also count them. They're artifacts in play. You could sack them for other things. If you had other reasons to sack their artifacts, they are artifacts. You could count them because they're artifacts in play. Like they had a lot of utility over and above getting you a card.

So yeah, they were half a card, but they had this other utility. So then when we get to Xelon years later, we're doing a pirate theme because it's a typel set, and we're not introducing, we had pirates, but we're blowing out pirates making a big pirate theme. And we realized that, oh, it'd be really cool. Can we use gold? So the idea is, okay, pirates having gold, that seems awesome. But it turns out the second set in Kaladesh, Aether Revolt, had a mechanic improvised, I think it's called, which was like Convoke but for artifacts, meaning it lets you tap artifacts make spells cheaper.

And it turns out that if you use gold with improvised, you essentially get two men out of every gold, because you can first tap it for the improvised and then sack it. it because gold didn't have a tap in the sack. So we're like, oh, okay, let's redo it. We'll add a tap to it. It won't cause the problem to improvise. And then because we were redoing, it's like, well, we'll give it a little more global name, a more universal name.

So rather than gold, we called it treasure. And treasure could represent gold. And when you think of pirates, you're kind of thinking of chest full of gold. But when we use treasure in other places, it can mean other things. And so we use treasure. And once again, it became very much a backbone. It became a structural component of the set. It's not just something that shows up on a card or two.

And like I said, we had started doing that with creatures. Creature tokens had long become, ever since Fallen Empires, had become a structural thing you can build a set around. But now we're saying, oh, well, artifact tokens can do that function as well. And then when we get to Throne of Eldrain, we do food. We realize that there's a lot of themes in fairy tales with food. And the marriage between a token that gets you life and the idea of food gets you health.

made a lot of sense. So the flavor was really spot on there. So we start figuring out that artifacts, artifact tokens are just a really cool, functional thing. And we would do power stones and blood and landers. And, you know, we would find a lot of other means to use them. You know, in March of the Machine, we did, he won't call them cocoon, but we changed the name.

They are, what are they called it? What are they called? So in March of the Machine, there's a mechanic that makes an artifact token that it starts as a non-creature artifact token with plus one-plus-one counters on it, depending on what the number is associated with the mechanic. And then you can spend matter to flip it into a phrexian, so like you can spend it to turn it into a creature. And how big a creature depends on how many counters you put on it, but it does not become a creature to turn into a creature. So that's us, for example, finding out a way to make sort of, I don't know if half a creature is the right term here. but much like the other things, I get a token that I could then turn into a card, life, manna, and now a creature.

We also would find enchantments, while artifacts tend to get the jump, artifacts are a little bit easier conceptually to use. But in Wilds of Eldrain, we had individual things that used enchantment tokens like the shard tokens that Nico makes and there have been some isolated ones. Wiles of Eldrain makes rolls. And what roles are is, oh, well, in fairy tales, there's certain things that you see all the time. You know, this is the young hero.

This is, you know, the wicked one. And so the monster. And so we, rolls are our first time we did oras, especially as a structural component. Where it wasn't the first time, I think. I don't think rolls are the first aura tokens. But they are the first sort of structural component. But anyway, a big part of wilds of Eldrain is the idea that I can make these tokens that then give me extra value.

And because I'm making enchantments, we can make enchantments matter in a way that's hard to do. Really what tokens do, once again, is it allows you to have to make more than one permanent with one card. And there's a lot of value and use of that. And so we've found that tokens more and more have become structural. So much so that one of the things we did when we went to play design is or slightly after we went to play boosters, sorry, after we went to play boosters

was starting to up the number of tokens that just exist percentage-wise. That, you know, it's become a very important play and so we're trying to make sure that people have that. And in my article, there are endless mechanics that make use of counters. and we keep finding new ways to use them. I mean, the interesting thing to me,

like one of the things, the reason I was interested in writing this whole article series is there are not a lot of things in magic. It is useful as a token. I mean, counters in tokens specifically. There's just so much use to them. And one of the things to be aware of is

we understand that, hey, every time you add a component that's not in the deck, You know, it is, you were adding something. And the reason we sort of went along with that is saying that, you know, there is so much design value. And tokens and counters have been so popular. We really sort of leaned into them. Now, we need to be careful. Like, one of the things, you know, there is pushing anything too far.

And there's definitely one of the things like we note, now that we have tokens in products, we're very conscious of how many unique different ones we have we want to make sure that we make counters for them we want to make sure we're not doing anything that is sort of making it too hard to play and we also understand that there's people who sort of opt into playing with tokens and counters but anyway it is

it's a very rich and diverse tool and something that we I don't even think when Richard made the high he really even understood how much potential it had I mean, he knew it had potential, obviously. But it has been, like, really, once again, the article, which I'm not sure of all the articles even out when I, when this goes up. I recorded it the week that the first one went up. But this might go up.

Actually, this is probably going to go up before they're all up, I guess. But one of the things that's about the article is just how, like, early in the first part of the series, I'm just talking about like an individual card. for the first time we did this thing. And by the end, I'm talking like whole swaths of mechanics. Like, there's two sets off the top of my head where there's two whole different mechanics that use counters that came out within the last year, or year and a half. And so that is, you know, that's,

it's fascinating from a design standpoint of just how useful they are. We keep finding more uses for them. We keep finding other ways to innovate on them. It definitely is this component that, It has a lot, like sometimes, one of the things that's interesting when you start using a new component is you don't necessarily know how much use it has. And you'll try it and you'll see. And sometimes, oh, it's really useful. And sometimes it's not as useful as you think.

But every once in a while, you find a vein that is so deep and tokens really fall into that vein. Like, there's just endless things you can do with tokens. You know, I believe tokens will be part of magic for as long as magic exists, which you might be. mind will be a long, long, long time. So I predict that I will probably, or I or somebody at some point will write an article years from now talking about, oh, here's the further evolution of tokens. There's all the new things since the last time we talked about it that tokens have done. So anyway, I hope today was a good sort of oversight. If you haven't started reading the column in Making Magic, it's called the History of Tokens. And like I said, it's three parts. I don't

know that all three parts are out as of you listening to this. But also, a lot of people listen to this long after this was put up. So if you've not read the article, it's on the Magic Daily MTG. And I go into great detail. I really go, I mean, far more than, usually it's funny. Usually the article is lighter and it's the podcast that goes in more detail. But because this was a three-part article, I'm kind of hitting the overviews in the podcast, and I hit the detail in the article. So a little backwards from how it normally happens. So anyway, I hardly recommend reading the article. If you, if you enjoyed today hearing all about the history of tokens, that article is, you'll find very interesting. But anyway, guys, I'm now at work. So we all know

that means, it means the end of my, what does it mean? It means to the end of my drive to work. So instead of talking magic, it's time for me to be making magic. I hope you guys enjoyed today's show, and I'll see you next time. Bye-bye.