Main Engine Cut Off - T+159: SpaceX Demo-2 Carries Crew to ISS

Episode Date: June 5, 2020

It happened! American astronauts on American rockets from American soil. Bob and Doug successfully launched, docked to the ISS, and joined Expedition 63. I talk about what this means for SpaceX, NASA, space policy, and where things go from here.This episode of Main Engine Cut Off is brought to you by 37 executive producers—Brandon, Matthew, Kris, Pat, Matt, Jorge, Brad, Ryan, Nadim, Peter, Donald, Lee, Chris, Warren, Bob, Russell, John, Moritz, Joel, Jan, Grant, David, Mints, Joonas, Robb, Tim Dodd (the Everyday Astronaut!), Frank, Julian and Lars from Agile Space, Tommy, Adam, and six anonymous—and 371 other supporters.TopicsNASA Astronauts Launch from America in Test of SpaceX Crew Dragon | NASAStation Welcomes First SpaceX Crew Dragon with Astronauts | NASASpaceX DM-2 Launch! Hang out and watch the prep, launch, and early orbital operations. - YouTubeCrew Demo 2 (Launch) - YouTubeCrew Demo 2 (Approach and Docking) - YouTubeMain Engine Cut Off on Twitter: “Fantastic clip, and a wonderful event from Dragon this morning”After troubled first flight, Boeing will refly Starliner without crew | Ars TechnicaMichael Baylor on Twitter: “SpaceX has been given NASA approval to fly flight-proven Falcon 9 and Crew Dragon vehicles during Commercial Crew flights starting with Post-Certification Mission 2, per a modification to SpaceX's contract with NASA.”Michael Sheetz on Twitter: “Axiom Space CEO Mike Suffredini said his company's private trip to the ISS with SpaceX is scheduled for October 2021, so Demo-2 helped ‘our customers know that it's going to be real.’ Axiom plans to announce the 3 passengers in a month or so.”Space Adventures Announces Agreement with SpaceX to Launch Private Citizens on the Crew Dragon Spacecraft - Space AdventuresCurrent and former NASA leadership share credit for commercial crew - SpaceNews.comThe ShowLike the show? Support the show!Email your thoughts, comments, and questions to [e-mail] @WeHaveMECOListen to MECO HeadlinesJoin the Off-Nominal DiscordSubscribe on Apple Podcasts, Overcast, Pocket Casts, Spotify, Google Play, Stitcher, TuneIn or elsewhereSubscribe to the Main Engine Cut Off NewsletterBuy shirts and Rocket Socks from the Main Engine Cut Off ShopMusic by Max Justus

Hello and welcome to Main Engine Cutoff, I am Anthony Colangelo and we're here to break down what possibly is the biggest story in space in years, in all reality. After a long drought, human spaceflight to low-Earth orbit has returned to the U.S., this time on top of a Falcon 9 inside of a Dragon 2 as part of the Commercial Crew Program. We've talked about it for years because this program started way back almost a decade ago, eventually led to the selection of SpaceX and Boeing in 2014 as the providers for these flights to the ISS. And we are officially underway. So we had Demo 1 was in March of 2019.

That was the uncrewed flight test of Dragon 2. They went on to have an issue with that capsule back on the ground when they were doing a test firing of the Super Draco abort engines. And just over a year later, they're back out on the pad, two astronauts aboard, and everything went so flawlessly with this launch. It's honestly shocking. You know, there was this phenomenon leading up to the launch that people were talking about that the press, the space press, and even the press more widely, kind of ran out of things to talk about because we've been talking about commercial crew so long. And in some ways, I kind of also ran out of things to talk about because this went so flawlessly. It's a huge credit to NASA and SpaceX that everything went without a hitch on both days. So originally, it was on May 27th. That was the original launch

attempt. They got all the way down to T-16 to do a weather poll. Weather wasn't looking good that day. They couldn't launch. And it moved about three days to May 30th. And again, everything went off without a hitch all the way down to T-0, launched successfully, made it to the ISS 19 hours later. And Bob Behnken and Doug Hurley are part of Expedition 63 up on the ISS. They're already getting underway for work there. They're probably going to be going out on a couple EVAs to put some new batteries in at the ISS. So they're going to have a busy couple of weeks ahead. We'll talk more about the future stuff, but I really just want to, you know, kind of talk more about how prepared NASA and SpaceX were for this day.

May 27th was circled on the calendar weeks ago, if not months ago, and that date stuck all the way down to essentially T-Zero. You know, they did that last minute weather poll, the 15 minute weather poll, because at that point they could avoid loading extra propellant on the vehicle and save a little money and time and not have to load the vehicle up with all that repellent. So they did a weather poll to just make sure if they can't launch, then might as well start detanking and get the astronauts off at that point. But essentially, they made it all the way through the flow twice on this mission, which with no holds, no issues to work. There was very little chatter on the mission control loop. It was

just weather that they were watching. And I didn't expect that. I expected there to be little things that have come up, just knowing how launches generally tend to go and knowing that human spaceflight is even another step above that. But the fact that they made it so smoothly through the flow is just an enormous, enormous achievement for SpaceX and NASA, and I feel like that can't be overlooked, though it obviously is overshadowed by the events that took place after that. They had a beautiful launch, beautiful recovery of the booster, made it to orbit successfully. They did a couple of manual control flights or periods of time when they were manually controlling the vehicle to do some tests. Checked out a whole bunch of other stuff. They did a couple of downlink events from the vehicle itself, you know, the old style.

Here's a couple of astronauts holding the camera, floating around a vehicle thing. But it really gave you a good idea of just how spacious Dragon 2 is compared to other vehicles that were flying on these days, like Soyuz. In particular, there was one I've linked in the show notes where Bob Behnken is kind of floating down under the seats to show the cargo area, and you really get a sense for what the space is like in there and how much room they really have on the way to the ISS. Obviously, you probably don't want to stay in there for too many days because it is definitely not as spacious as something like the ISS.

But for that transit period up to station, it looked pretty great for Bob and Doug. And the next flight coming up, we'll have four people aboard. So that will be a whole other dynamic in there when there's four people on board that for, you know, 19 hours or whatever it shakes out to be for the first official mission coming up later this year. But nonetheless, I really recommend watching those clips as well. They're just fantastic events and it really brought a smile to my face to see Bob and Doug floating around in there, showing everyone around the new vehicle. Now, like I said, I really don't have a lot to say about Demo 2 so far because it went so flawlessly. I tend to not say a lot on this show unless I've got something unique to add to the conversation or some really good analysis

that I want to put into your ears. I try to keep the signal to noise high. There's about three topics that I want to cover about Demo-2 and the relationship with the ISS and more generally NASA policy. So first up, we've talked about this before, but now that we can schedule these flights, this is really going to change the face of ISS operations, especially from what we've seen the last five years or so. This really revolutionizes the crew time available on ISS. It revolutionizes the way that we can plan for missions to be up on ISS and to schedule time available. The ISS takes a massive amount of time to keep flying. It is a vehicle. It's a ship.

It requires maintenance, and maintenance takes a lot of time. So for these smaller crews that we've had on board ISS the last couple of years, doing all that maintenance and still trying to be productive on scientific research and everything else that NASA and the partners that are on the US side of the ISS are trying to accomplish is a really tough task.

We typically saw in the last couple of years with Soyuz flights, a month or two of overlap, sometimes even less than that, between crews. So typically there was a launch every six months or so, and you've got a month or two on either end of that where you're overlapping with the other crew.

So there is a period of time when you're down to either one or two crew members. And this is all talking about the US orbital segment. There's two halves of the ISS, the Russian side and the US side. The US side includes the partners that NASA works with, like the Europeans, the Japanese Space Agency, the Canadian Space Agency. All those partners are on the U.S. side. So that's spent a lot of time between one and two crew members, occasionally getting up to three. And those weeks when there were three crew members aboard were the most productive weeks. They can do more intensive spacewalks and do maintenance tasks that require a lot of crew operations. Now with the ability to put up a lot more people to the station in one shot, that's going to change the way things get scheduled. And it's going to

get us a lot more productivity out of the ISS than we've had the last few years. So just as an example, the year 2019, we had seven crew members that flew to the US side of the ISS over that calendar year. They all weren't there at the same time, as I'm saying, they're kind of staggered out, but we had seven crew members. Just this year between Demo-2, which is a short duration test flight, and the first official mission, as it's called Crew 1, SpaceX will have six people up to the ISS this year, assuming that schedule holds. So in two flights that are spaced about three or four months apart, SpaceX is going to match the amount of people that were up in the ISS in all of last calendar year. Now, when you consider the Boeing Starliner work that's ongoing, once that's operational, or you consider the fact that NASA might ask SpaceX to fly two missions in

a year, maybe even three missions in a year, and really start stacking some of these on top of each other, the amount of people that we can fly to the ISS just grew a massive amount. And that's not even counting things like a potential for Axiom Space, who we've had on the show a couple of times, talk about their plans to expand the International Space Station. If they start buying flights like they have on the books to ISS,

that's going to even have more seats going up to ISS. Once they add facilities on and they're buying even more flights to their facilities at the ISS, the amount of people that are going to be going to that spot in space is going to have a huge jump, and that has massive knock-on effects down the line that are really going to revolutionize the way the ISS works today. Now, an interesting note on what I mentioned there about Boeing. Boeing Starliner flew at the end of last year in December, had a ton of issues, and they

have to refly their uncrewed test flight because of all those issues. They never even made it to the ISS with that flight. So they've got another uncrewed flight to fly, which could be about a year away. Then they'll fly their version of Demo-2, which is the first crewed flight test of Starliner. And that would be a three crew member mission. It'll be probably similarly extended in the way that Demo-2 is. I should have mentioned that up front. Bob and Doug are now on ISS as part of Expedition 63 up until one month before the next crew is ready to fly. That's how confident they are in Dragon 2 here, by the way, is that they're

hitching the schedule of this current flight to the readiness of the crew and the vehicle for that crew on the next flight. So maybe a year, year and a half from now, Boeing is catching up to where SpaceX is with Demo 2 today. Could be a lot longer than that. Could be two years, certainly, considering the amount of issues that Boeing is working through. But that makes an interesting situation there with the relative flight schedules. SpaceX is ready to fly a full crewed expedition to the ISS by the end of August, late summer. Then they're going to be ready to fly six months after that, because they have to be per the NASA requirements that crews fly every six months. So if SpaceX gets a flight off in August, and then maybe February, and then maybe September, they could have three full crew missions in addition

to Demo-2 fly to the ISS before a single person board Starliner. And that is, you know, it not only shows the strength of having two competitors, because, you know, this is the great strength of having two suppliers is that if one has an issue or one takes a little longer or goes down for a period of time, you still have someone else to rely on. So while Boeing works out their issues, and now certainly they can work without being stressed that, you know, the entire nation's spaceflight capability is on their shoulders for this, SpaceX can carry that load while Boeing works through their issues. Now, the interesting thing comes to the fact that both providers, as part of the original commercial crew program and the contracting there, they, in addition to all the development and the test flights that have already happened and are

happening now, they both got a contract for six full rotation flights. These expeditions that are coming up, starting with Crew-1 in late August, they're each on contract for six of those flights. Now, this is very similar to the commercial cargo program that SpaceX also flies in alongside Northrop Grumman and Sierra Nevada, in that a certain amount of flights are purchased by NASA. And then that is extended on a per, you know, as needed basis. They extend it per every couple of years. They say, well, we're going to need two flights that year, three flights the next year. So we'll buy five flights from you. And they extend it as they need to, but they extend it as they need to when you get close to exhausting the amount of flights that they have already

booked with you. So if they've booked six flights with SpaceX and six with Boeing, but SpaceX makes it through three of their flights before Boeing has even approached their crewed flight test, not even their actual first crew flight, there is an extremely good likelihood that SpaceX will have another purchase from NASA before Starliner flies an operational mission. I'm willing to bet that SpaceX will get more missions from NASA before Starliner is flying operational crewed missions to the ISS. And what that means is, you know, originally, there's a lot of hoopla that's been made about the fact that Boeing's bid for the commercial crew program was north of $4 billion, and SpaceX's was something around $2.5 billion.

So there's a pretty big price gap between these two competitors. and potentially get an extension of that in the very near future, they could quickly take over as a kind of primary flight provider for the ISS, because Boeing still has to work off all those other six missions, and SpaceX could very quickly make up that monetary gap by flying so many of these missions up to the ISS. Once Boeing does come online, I would expect these schedules to kind of change a little bit, right? Because I think originally it was the intention that each of these providers would fly about one crewed mission a year to the ISS, and they would alternate every six months or so. That schedule could change. It could be adjusted so that NASA's flying three flights per year,

and you've got a year where you're flying twice and a year where you're flying once, and you kind of rotate. A lot of these schedules are going to work out as NASA and their partners learn how they want to take advantage of this new crewed spaceflight ability. But it's really going to have big impacts in the way that it interacts with Boeing trying to catch up on Starliner work here and fix the issues. And I'm just interested to see how NASA manages all that, considering there is a pretty big disconnect here. And SpaceX is going to have, you know, something on the order of 14 people flown to space in their hardware before Starliner gets anyone up. It's a pretty big jump in capability there and in timeline there. And it's going to have big effects down the line in terms of who's getting more missions, who's getting more funding. And it's something that I'm sure we'll hear a lot about when Congress once again starts discussing space issues, whenever that may be. Now, there's a couple other bits I want to touch

on regarding DM2. But before we do that, I want to say thank you so much to everyone out there who supports Main Engine Cutoff every single month. If you want to help join the crew that supports this show, head over to mainenginecutoff.com support. There are 412 of you supporting this show every single month, and I'm so thankful for it. It helps this thing keep going. It helps me make a couple of upgrades here in my system that let us do really cool things. Like we were streaming live for the Demo 2 launch, Jake and I, over on YouTube. I've got a link in the show notes to our stream for the Demo 2 launch. I'm thinking we're going to do a lot more of this kind of video stream and stuff because we've been enjoying it. We've been enjoying doing some live content, but it's there if you want to hang out with us and see

our reactions live to Demo 2 and all the things that were going on around it that day. But I can't do that kind of stuff without your support to be able to, you know, make some hardware upgrades or software upgrades or just generally be able to budget some time and money to upgrading what we're doing here. And it's completely funded by you, the listeners. And that's a pretty unique thing these days in the world of media. And in the world of media during a pandemic, it's looking like one of the more stable options. So I'm so thankful for that. And this episode was produced by 38 executive producers, Brandon, Matthew, Simon, Chris, Pat, Matt, George, Brad, Ryan, Nadeem, Peter, Donald, Lee, Chris, Warren, Bob, Russell, John, Moritz, Joel, Jan, Grant,

David, Mintz, Eunice, Rob, Tim Dodd, the Everyday Astronaut, Frank, Julian, and Lars from Agile Space, Tommy, Adam, and six anonymous executive producers. Thank you all so much for your support. And once again, if you want to help, head over to mainenginecutoff.com slash support. So I mentioned in the last rant that I was doing that SpaceX already has a couple of missions signed, or at least one mission signed, with Axiom Space. Axiom Space is going to be adding modules to the ISS, but before they send up their own modules, they're going to be buying missions up to the ISS to get used to flying astronauts to space and to start working on what the interaction model will be like for commercial flights to ISS.

Just last year, Space Adventures signed an agreement with SpaceX to be able to sell Dragon flights, some of which would be much more akin to the Gemini program of the 60s that would fly not to the ISS, but to a high orbit, all in Dragon for a couple of days long. a high orbit all in Dragon for a couple of days long. And that would be another offering, kind of this space tourism industry that has much talked about, but has yet to really come to fruition aside from a couple of different flights that people have taken over the years. Now, these other missions that SpaceX has, will, and could sell are a big part of the business model of Dragon 2 specifically and crewed space flight for SpaceX overall. They don't want to have NASA as a singular customer. And I think NASA, they don't want to be the only customer on a thing either in this kind of commercialized

environment. The strength there is that SpaceX puts in a little of its own money as an investment to have some effects down the line where they're selling a crewed spaceflight to people that aren't NASA. Whether that be tourists or, in the case of Axiom, other national astronauts. You know, there's going to be nations that don't currently have flights scheduled through the ISS partners that want to have astronauts go up to the ISS, and they could do that through Axiom. But for SpaceX, that's going to be a big indicator of how successful this program was, because it was a gigantic investment. They obviously got a lot of the money from NASA for this investment, but they did put up a significant amount of funding on their own for this. And to kind of take that back to the commercial cargo program, SpaceX never sold a Dragon mission to anyone else, But what they did get out of it was Falcon 9. And I think they looked at that program more as a way to build a launch service to get some experience with a

spacecraft. But originally, they did have plans to sell Dragon Lab missions, which would be, you know, maybe somebody needs a short term kind of mission that wouldn't involve crew, but would involve other experiments or manufacturing capability. They had all these different ideas to fly these uncrewed missions where you would need to send some cargo inside of a Dragon and recover it afterwards. They never were able to sell that. There's obviously no other space stations up there that need cargo right now. But they did, certainly out of that program, they got a foot in the door for things like Dragon 2, this crewed spaceflight to the ISS, like Dragon XL, which is cargo out to the Lunar Gateway, if and when that comes about. And they got what is now the most flown

operational launch vehicle in the US and dominates the commercial launch industry. launch vehicle in the US and dominates the commercial launch industry. So they got a lot of benefits out of there without ever selling a Dragon flight to anyone but NASA. But I think on the Dragon 2 side, there's a lot more hope there for them to sell these missions. They obviously have already sold one to Axiom Space. Axiom says that they've got it on the schedule right now for October 2021, and that they already have the three passengers for it and that they're got it on the schedule right now for October 2021, and that they already have the three passengers for it, and that they're going to be announcing that fairly soon. We heard rumors that Tom Cruise has a flight booked to shoot a movie in space, and that would likely be on a Dragon. So already there's a lot more interest in these secondary missions for Dragon 2 that make the

business model a lot more approachable. It lets them make money off of these Dragon vehicles. Now, another thing fell recently that was a big part of this as well, is a big component of their business model, and that is to be able to reuse vehicles. Up until now, we were under the assumption, and NASA and SpaceX both said that for NASA flights, they were going to have to build brand new hardware, fly brand new Dragons, and potentially brand new boosters for every single crewed mission, because that is what

NASA had approved up front. Well, just a couple of days ago, there was approval given to refly Falcon 9 boosters and Crew Dragon spacecraft on these missions to the ISS, starting with Crew-2, which would be the flight in 2021 for SpaceX. SpaceX had always said that Dragon 2 could be reused at least up to five times or something like that, potentially more, but NASA hadn't signed off on that yet. So we were always assuming, or I was anyway, that SpaceX would use each NASA flight to build a brand new Dragon, and then they would refly that for crewed missions such as Axiom Space or Space Adventures or whoever else is buying flights from them. They would use reused Dragons for the non-NASA flights. Well, now NASA signed off on reuse, so that opens the door for them to reuse as much hardware as possible, which is

always a major tenant of SpaceX. But it really makes the economics work out a lot better because the same way we talk about with reusing the first stage boosters for Falcon 9, you can spend a bunch of money making a really good vehicle and then reuse it. And that brings your cost per flight down significantly and opens up the opportunity to make a lot more money off of a launch service or a vehicle service like Dragon 2. So SpaceX can build a small fleet of Dragon vehicles and refly them for NASA missions, for Axiom missions, for space adventures, for whoever else comes along and wants to buy a Dragon 2 flight. And that makes it a lot more attractive for their business model, for their accountants,

I'm sure. But I really am interested to see what that market does for SpaceX, because Flying Dragon 2 is not going to win them any more commercial launches in the way that Flying Dragon flights, the cargo flights to the ISS, that let them work out their launch service and sell a lot more flights of the Falcon 9 flight to space for your satellite. There isn't a similar knock-on effect there for Dragon 2. It's got to be that crewed launch. So that's going to be a big part. Obviously, for the plans that SpaceX has in general, for Starship and things like that, there is a big effect here that SpaceX is the premier launch and operations company in the US. They're flying people to space now. They're going to get a ton of experience doing

that. They're going to get a lot of experience just managing crewed flight and learning a lot more about what they need to take into consideration for their vehicles, for their operations. And they're building up an operational side of the company that they haven't done before. So that obviously has knock-on effects as well, but I think a big part of this is how many flights can they sell, and is there a real true market there for human spaceflight to orbit? Now, I would be remiss to end this show without touching on a couple of political issues that came up around Demo 2. In the run-up to the launch, there was a huge media push from NASA because this is a really big deal for them.

And in the course of that, Jim Bridenstine, the NASA administrator, did give some shout-outs to previous administrations, specifically Charlie Bolden, who was the administrator previously under the Obama administration. He gave some shout shout outs to the George W. Bush administration, which actually kicked off the need for commercial crew. And then the Obama administration implemented it. Lori Garver didn't get a shout out, but she was kind of talked about in the social media world and the media world generally around that. And then right before the launch, the Joe Biden campaign, who's currently running to go against Donald Trump in the upcoming election in November, he had a campaign event with Charlie Bolden, the NASA administrator under his time as vice president. He was an S administrator then. And Bill Nelson, who was a senator in Florida, longtime senator in Florida, Democratic senator who had a major influence in the space program generally. He was a longtime House of Representatives member before being in the Senate. He flew on the space shuttle during his House of Representatives run as this kind of, you know, fly a member of Congress to space thing was disparagingly called Ballast Bill in a way that people weren't thrilled with him going up on the space shuttle. So he was always a major player in space politics generally. So the Joe Biden campaign had an event with Bolden and Nelson in which they talked to the press generally about space policy and what space policy might look like under a Biden administration. And it was interesting that Bolden and Nelson were both very kind to Jim Bridenstine in saying,

obviously, up front, he had a very tumultuous beginning. There was a lot of pushback about him being in this position. But Charlie Bolden even said he's turned into a very fine administrator. And then there was this part at the end of this article that I have linked in the show notes. It's a Space News article that you should definitely check out. It is by Jeff Fowles from May 26th. The article ends like this. Bolden suggested he would like to see a Biden administration continue with NASA's current plans. We hope that whoever follows the Trump administration, my hope is that it'll be a Biden administration, they will continue to march the way that we're headed now, heading back to the moon and then on to Mars. I am hopeful that this administration

and the next will continue to work with Congress to get the funding that's needed to keep the Artemis program going, he said later in the call. But he added, we should all be focused on what's going to happen tomorrow, meaning Demo 2. So there is this interesting kind of, you know, Jim Bridenstine gave some props to former administrations. The current campaign of the Democratic Party gave some props to Bridenstine and the plans that the administration is currently working on. Commercial crew itself started under Bolden and under Biden as the vice president. So there is a really interesting resonance here on both sides of the political spectrum in the US that is all sort of pushing in the same direction. Now, there are obviously within Congress, there are some people that fervently disagree with the

way that things are going, that fervently think things should happen differently. A lot of that is parochial and not necessarily them thinking what is the best for space, as is, you know, Congress tends to do. But it's interesting this far ahead of time, you know, this was in May that this press call happened, that space came up in this way. It was so important. This event was so important that the Biden campaign held an event. While there's all this other stuff going on, there's pandemic. Now we've got nationwide protests of systematic racism, and yet at the same time, the campaign sees Florida as such an important part of the campaign to win that swing state that they call this kind of press conference, and there is some bipartisan agreement on the direction that NASA is heading. is heading. Now, if you're Joe Biden and you're worried about winning Florida and you think that space is a big part of it and you want to kind of neutralize that, you know, maybe there are people in Florida that really are vested in seeing the space policy head in the same direction the

current administration is, well, you can neutralize that vulnerability by kind of signing on. And certainly there's resonance here with what was happening under your previous administration that you want to sign on to. It's really interesting to see it come up six months in advance of an election. And I just wanted to note that here, that around Demo 2, as big of an event as it is for NASA, there's a lot of politicking going on. But there's this interesting resonance on either person in this election and what their administration would look like. And I find that incredibly interesting and something to really consider and just keep an eye on as we get closer and closer to the election. We see another crew flight go up in August, and we'll see what happens at Starliner and whatever else is going on,

that there is a little bit of agreement in that direction. And that's an important note to just keep an eye on, because obviously things could change drastically under any given administration switch, as we've seen the last 20 years. And certainly some of the stuff that Bolden said is different than it was under his time as NASA administrator. They were pretty focused on an asteroid and Mars at the beginning, and SLS came out then. So a little bit of a difference in what he's saying now, but it is an important note nonetheless. So anyway, what I thought was going to be a short show, just giving some ideas on what I thought about Demo 2 turned into a nearly half hour rant, but it was a huge day, really great day for SpaceX and NASA. And I'm really excited to see

what comes next on this front. For now, that is all I've got for you. Thank you all so much for listening. And as always, head over to mainenginecutoff.com slash support to join the crew and help support the show every single month. And if you've got any questions or thoughts, send them to me on Twitter at wehavemiko or over email anthony at mainenginecutoff.com. And until next time, thank you so much for listening. I'll talk to you soon.