Main Engine Cut Off - T+26: OA-5, Antares, and Orbital ATK’s Road Ahead

Episode Date: October 19, 2016

I took a trip down to Wallops Island, Virginia this week for the launch of OA-5—the return to flight for Antares, sending Cygnus up to the ISS on a resupply mission. I recorded this episode on the long drive home afterwards, and talked about what Antares’ return means for Orbital ATK and what their future may hold—both good and bad. My video of the launch of OA-5, complete with incredible audio My photos of the launch of OA-5 Antares launches Cygnus on return-to-flight mission - SpaceNews.com Talking Space Gene J. Mikulka Aerojet Rocketdyne Makes Case for AR1 - Main Engine Cut Off Aerojet Rocketdyne Announces Expansion at NASA’s Stennis Space Center in Mississippi - Main Engine Cut Off T+19: SpaceX’s Manifest, Flight-Proven Hardware, Blue Origin Updates, and Antares’ Engines - Main Engine Cut Off T+6: Orbital ATK’s Next-Gen Vehicle, Falcon 9 Proving Its Reusability, and ULA’s Tough Future - Main Engine Cut Off Video from Orbital ATK Featuring Cygnus-Derived Habitats - Main Engine Cut Off NASA Releases RFI for EM-2 Payload - Main Engine Cut Off Email feedback to [e-mail] Follow @WeHaveMECO Subscribe on iTunes, Overcast, or elsewhere Subcribe to Main Engine Cut Off Weekly Support Main Engine Cut Off on Patreon

Hello and welcome to Main Engine Cut-Off. I am Anthony Colangelo and this is a special episode of the show. As you may hear in the background, I am in the car right now driving back from OA5. This is a nice long drive back from Virginia all the way up to the Philadelphia area. So this has been quite a whirlwind of a day. I left this morning, drove all the way down to Virginia, hung out at Wallops today, and stayed for the launch at the press site, then went back to the post-launch press conference, and then headed out back up north. so quite a whirlwind of a day I would not suggest doing this the way that I am right now I

would suggest planning better but this is the way that it worked out I'm glad I got to be there for the launch I'm very happy with with my experience down there it was a great time talked to a lot of people met a lot of people talked with a lot of orbital ATK people and I got to a lot of people, met a lot of people, talked with a lot of Orville ATK people, and got to see the launch go off without a hitch tonight. Obviously, there's been tons of delays of this launch over time. It was supposed to launch back in summer, but they had an issue with the hot fire and delayed it all the way to the fall, and then it's been delaying on and off throughout the week because of weather, because of some technical issues.

But finally did get off tonight. I'm very glad about that. So figured I would just do a little bit of a kind of stream of consciousness type episode, you know, in response to the launch. So sorry if there's a little all over the place, just kind of doing it in the heat of the moment here right after leaving the launch site. so I'll try to go in a somewhat organized manner but I've been thinking about a lot of what Orbital ATK has in store for the future so you know this if it's a little bit rambly sorry about that but special episode and that's what comes with the territory. So the launch went smoothly tonight they delayed it five minutes from where it was supposed to be.

And when asked about that in the press conference, Frank Culbertson, the president of Orbital ATK, said that that was because of an engine issue that they were a little bit worried about. Not concerned enough to scrub or anything like that, but they wanted to just give themselves a little more time to make sure that they got everything right. And, you know, they do have that time in their launch window prep. They have a five-minute launch window for ISS launches, and that's, you know, that's obviously a little bit better. Shuttle had an instantaneous window because of how long a count reset would take and all that kind of stuff that goes into that. But Antares does not have an instantaneous launch window.

They have a five minute launch window. So not quite as good as the Atlas five was, but certainly an improvement over some other launch vehicles. So they used all that five minutes. They pushed it back and worked the issue. Everything came out fine and they were able to get it off and on time. The interesting thing that was talked about a lot after the launch was that the Antares and Castor XL upper stage delivered Cygnus into a higher orbit than they had intended.

And this was something that came up a couple of times in the press conference, and Frank Culbertson said that that was due to them being a little bit conservative with what the engines and what the upper stage could do. This is the first time this entire rocket has flown from top to bottom. This is the re-engined Antares. This is a new Castor XL upper stage. So they did not have a lot of expectations going in.

They also, additionally, they had a lighter load than they typically have. They did add some supplies at the end of the launch flow because of the SpaceX incident that was going to be delayed. So they removed some ballast and added some cargo. So there was some shifting there. But overall, it was a lighter launch than they will typically do. But overall, it was a lighter launch than they will typically do. So all those things contributed to them getting into a bit of a higher orbit than was intended.

I'm sure that's something we'll hear more about as they go forward and as they assess the engine performance, the upper stage performance, all that kind of stuff. Overall, it was a good thing. It was not an issue at all. He kept saying that over and over again that really it was a good thing because Cygnus has less work to do now. So it's not something that's going to screw up the mission or anything like that. It was a very good thing in the way that it happened. So it'll be interesting coming out of this to see if they need to rework anything for the next couple launches of Antares. They've got these new engines and new upper stage. Maybe now with this experience, they can take that into account and adjust their plans for the next launches and, you know, react if they need to and change what they're doing if they think they need to, or if they can get a

little bit more performance out of the rocket as a whole. that's something they can consider going forward. On that topic, I was not able to make the tours the day before on Sunday. I was not able to get down here early enough for that, unfortunately. But I was standing with Gene Mikulka of the Talking Space Show out at the press site and was talking with him about what he saw on the tours and things that he saw and picked up from the tours that were interesting. One of the things that was extremely interesting was the way that Orbital ATK is switching around first stage cores of Antares. So the one that was hot fired back in May, that was the core that was supposed to be on OA7, which is the next flight of Antares. Let's get into the way that Orbital ATK numbers things because this was the OA5 launch, OA6 was an Atlas launch, and OA7 is the next launch. Don't worry too much about the

numbering. Things are a little messed up because of the incident they had two years ago with Antares, so, you know, things are a little all over the place, but what you need to know is OA7 is the next launch of Antares. The first stage that was supposed to be used for that was the one that they hot-fired in preparation for this launch. After the hot-fire, if you remember, things didn't go so well with the hot-fire. They had a lot of extra vibrations and stuff that they needed to work out, so they were kind of changing the way that they were going to do the engines for launches, changing the trajectory to fit all that. So what came out of all that at the end was that they did have some reworking to do to get

ready for a launch of Antares and Cygnus. So they did that work on a different booster than the one that was hot-fired and that's the booster that flew tonight. So what's interesting is that they brought in a new core for OA7. So OA7 will not be using the hot-fired core anymore. That will fly on OA8, and OA7 will have a brand new first stage that has never had engines integrated or anything like that.

So what it seems to me, they didn't really say much about why they were doing this switch out. They alluded to this fact, but what it seems is that there was some extra reworking they had to do to get these stages ready to fly, and it's going to be quicker and cheaper to do that on a new first stage than completely redo the OA-7 hot-fired booster. So they're obviously going to fly that eventually, but it's going to take a little longer and be a little more expensive or time-consuming

or whatever it is. You know, it's quicker now to integrate a new first stage than it's going to take a little longer and be a little more expensive or time consuming or whatever it is. You know, it's quicker now to integrate a new first stage than it would be to go back and fix the one that was hot fired. They're obviously going to do that eventually, but right now, not worth it in their opinion. So that kind of switching game is interesting that they're playing there where they're kind of shifting around that hot-fired booster. I wonder if something else happened to it that they didn't really talk about or that they're concerned about. I don't know what's going to happen there. I don't know if we'll hear much about it, but pretty interesting that they're doing this kind of switch and talking about it publicly right now. Now, for the launch itself, it was a pretty impressive launch. We were out at the press site, which was I think about a mile and a half away from the launch pad.

It was pretty close and just those RD-181 engines really pack a punch. You know, it takes a second for the sound to get there, but that ignition shockwave almost that hit us was very very powerful and then to hear those engines almost that hit us was very, very powerful. And then to hear those engines is just really something special. And if you are anywhere close to Wallops, I would highly recommend getting there

for an Antares launch because it's a pretty incredible experience. And if you're within driving distance, it's really worth it to go see. I saw a comment on Reddit, or a title on Reddit or something that I liked, and it was, looks like a Zenit, sounds like an Atlas V, must be an Antares 230. And I thought that's pretty clever.

But the RD-181 is very reminiscent of the Atlas V RD-180 for obvious reasons that we'll talk about in a few minutes. But, you know, they did have a similar roar to them and a similar rumble that was just really fun to experience. So I did take a 4K video of that and I'm going to be posting that online and if the audio turned out good enough, I had a pretty good mic attached to it, so if the audio turned out good enough, I'm going to put some of that at the end of this show just to give you a little treat from the launch itself.

I also took a bunch of photos and I did a cool time lapse photo from two hours before the launch through the launch itself. I also took a bunch of photos and I did a cool time-lapse photo from two hours before the launch through the launch. I haven't checked it out yet. I hope it turned out well and if it did, I'll post that as well, obviously. So a lot of stuff to post coming out of this. I'll put all those links in the show notes at mainenginecutoff.com. There's not too much else to say about the launch itself. You know, being a night launch, you could see it just about forever. We saw it all the way to main engine cutoff and then about a minute of coast time there as they separate the fairings, as they jettison the interstage. They do a lot of interesting things there in that minute.

It's quite a long coast period, but that's sort of what you get when you're doing a solid motor as your upper stage. You know you can't throttle it, you can't do anything like that, so you kind of got to change the way you fly. But you know we saw it launch all the way to main engine cutoff, the coast period, and then the Castor XL reignite. And I know I saw people posting on Twitter that they saw that cut off and reignition, you know, as far as hundreds of miles away. So perfectly clear night, extremely humid and dewy out there at the press site though. But, you know, conditions wise, just beautiful for a launch. So again, make an effort to go see an Antares launch. It's really worth it. And if you haven't seen a launch, it's doubly worth it

because launches really never get old. They're exciting. But this one in particular was very, very big for Orbital ATK, for NASA, for Wallops really. It was a return to flight for Wallops and Antares. really. It was a return to flight for Wallops and Antares, and really very important because any failure here would have been catastrophic. It wouldn't have killed Orbital ATA certainly because they are involved in so much, which I plan on talking about for the last 10 minutes of this show, but it would have been a big, big blow after all this work to get back here.

So the fact that things went off without a hitch is really good for Orbital ATK and for their future. As far as that, Frank Culbertson was asked in the press conference what Antares' future holds, what Cygnus' future holds. He didn't get too specific on this front. He just said, you know, we're going to fly again. his future holds. He didn't get too specific on this front. He just said, you know, we're going to fly again. So that's something that I would keep in mind because he was a little tight-lipped about what Antares may fly in the future. Certainly, you know, the size of Antares, the payload capacity, and the launch site make it not a great fit for a lot of launches. You

could see them doing NASA science launches like they've done a few of out of wallops before, not with Antares but with other launch vehicles. But obviously they're not a great fit for geosynchronous orbits or anything like that with more complex upper stage burns. So the range and the capacity and the flight envelope of Antares doesn't lend itself extremely well to a lot of launch types, or at least extremely easily to a lot of launch types. So it'll be interesting to see what they're flying out of Wallops. I think it would be mostly NASA science missions and things like that. I want to get back to Orbital ATK's future and what they're working

on in a few minutes, because that's very interesting to think about. But what I want to get back to Orbital ATK's future and what they're working on in a few minutes because that's very interesting to think about. But what I want to mention first is something that I've been talking about on here, on the blog. I've posted about it a couple times. I've talked about it a few times. It's the thought that the future of Antares may not lie in the RD-181. And this sounds funny that I'm saying this as I'm driving back from the return to flight with the first RD-181. And this sounds funny that I'm saying this, you know, as I'm driving back from the return to flight with the first RD-181 flight under its belt. But overall, just kind of want to go over it again, because Gene McColca, again, for Talking Space, brought this up as well when we were waiting for the launch, that there may be a future in which Antares flies with the AR-1 or some other American-built

version of an engine that would be good and would be a good replacement for an RD-180 class engine. So the long and the short of it is that Orbital ATK wanted an RD-181 for Antares way long ago. Actually, at the time it was Orbital Sciences, now it's Orbital ATK. Antares way long ago. Actually, at the time it was Orbital Sciences, now it's Orbital ATK. They wanted to use the RD-180 a very long time ago, but they couldn't because ULA has an exclusivity deal that limits the use there to anyone outside of the Atlas V. They're not allowed to use that engine launching from within the U.S. So they weren't able to get the RD-180, so they went with what they could find that was close, and what the close match was was the AJ-26, which was the rebuilt engines from the N1.

So they took those, they paired them together to mimic the RD-180, which is a single engine, but dual chamber. This was, you know, two engines, two chambers. They matched it as close as they could. They flew with that, and obviously we know what the result of that was. So they were looking to re-engine Antares, and they wanted to get as close as they could to the RD-180 because, again, they couldn't get their hands on that engine. So they went with what is the RD-191 that's labeled for export as the RD-181. Again, two chambers, two engines paired together match the RD-180 one. Again, two chambers, two engines paired together match the RD-180. They do have to pull the throttle back a little bit on the engines because

they are individually less powerful than the RD-180. Combined, they are much more powerful than the RD-180. So they do have to pull the throttling back a little bit on the engines to get the right performance and the right thrust of weight and all that kind of stuff that they that they need out of the engines but anyway they are looking at an engine in the class of an rd180 and right now there's a big effort to replace the rd180 with something built here in the us and this was really you know the the source of all that kind of political unrest about the RD-180 was that they wanted to ban the

use of Russian engines for national security payloads. So the idea was to build an American engine that could be used instead of the RD-180. And the two that are in that program right now are the BE-4, which is the methane engine from Blue Origin that they're building for their own needs, and the BE-4, which is the methane engine from Blue Origin that they're building for their own needs, and the AR-1, which is from Aerojet Rocketdyne and is marketed as a drop-in replacement for the RD-180. It uses the same types of fuels, RP-1 and LOX, just like Antares does, just like the Atlas V does.

You know, the BE-4 is methane. This one would be regular kerosene. BE-4 is methane. This one would be regular kerosene. So that is out there right now. Right now, Vulcan, the new rocket from ULA that once they replace Atlas V, that's choosing between the BE-4 and the AR-1, as we've talked about. BE-4 is way far ahead. Maybe not way far ahead, but they are far ahead. They're supposed to test fire at the end of this year. It looks like that's moving to next year so they are leading right now um and the question is when do when do they lock in the be4 as the pick for vulcan after the test fire did they wait longer than that

it seems like they'll lock it in after the test fire so uh you know pretty soon we could hear that the ar1 has no future use in mind yet, and that brings up the question, well, will it continue to be funded if the BE-4 is chosen as the way forward for Vulcan? Especially considering that there would be different propellant tanks in there, it would be hard to understand why the AR-1 would be built if it's not going to be used at all. And that brings in Antares. If Antares ever wanted to fly national security payloads and, you know, maybe the Russian thing spurs up again and it's a ban for all launches, you know, the tensions with Russia are not getting any less at this point. So, you know, it could be something that if Antares wants to avoid future pain, fly national security payloads, which seems unlikely, again, given the kinds of launches it does and the payload class it's in. But it might be a good idea for them in the long run, if they're going to be flying Antares for a long, long time, they might want to switch to an American-built engine to avoid any of that, to avoid what they can from the political situations

like we saw ourselves in over the past few years. So all that's to say, you know, right now they've locked in at least 10 flights of these RD-181s and they have options for more flights. They have two options of 10 flights each. So they haven't officially bought that many flights yet, but they do have options out for those flights at some point. So it's a long shot.

It's something that we would be talking about way into the future, but it's something long shot, it's something that we would be talking about way into the future, but it's something to keep in mind and look at how Antares will be used going forward from here. But the big variable there with what Antares would be used for in the future is what's up with Orbital ATK's next generation launch vehicle. So they have this next generation launch vehicle in mind that is a solid booster and then an upper stage that uses the BE-3U, which is the upper stage that Blue Origin is building and is going to be used on New Glenn and is a derivative of the engine they're flying now on New Shepard. So this would be an entirely American built launch vehicle in the EELV class,

so in the class that you would need to be in to fly national security payloads, and it will be launching from Cape Canaveral. This is the one that they've, or at least in negotiations for high bay space in the VAB to support, and probably would be launching from 39B, strangely enough, which is where SLS is going to launch from. So this is the big variable for Orbital ATK moving forward and how they would use Antares is this launch vehicle that they're working on would fulfill a lot of the markets that might be useful for Orbital ATK when you're thinking about how to market a launch vehicle. It could hit national security payloads, it could do

national science missions, and it might even support some Cygnus launches at some point, and it might even launch some commercial flights. I don't know that they could make it cheap enough to really market to the commercial market, but who knows where they see that targeting. But you know that's that's the big variable is if that rocket is meant to fill those markets, I don't know what Antares is left to do. Obviously, Antares would probably be cheaper to fly than the next generation launch vehicle. I would assume so, though Pegasus is quite expensive already. So Orbital ATK does have some cost issues, I think, in general, or at least cost fit issues for what they offer so

you know maybe they continue to fly Cygnus ISS flights if there are any when the next generation launch vehicle comes online I would hope that they would be nearing their end of those flights by the time the next generation launch vehicle comes online but don't count it out because it looks like we might have the ISS forever so overall I wonder when we'll start to hear more about the next generation launch vehicle from Orbital ATK. We've heard very little so far, but, you know, with so many people talking about their next generation launch vehicle, I expect them to start to enter that conversation if they do want to compete in that market in the future. You know, we're going to have Vulcan, we're going to have Ariane 6,

we're going to have some new launch vehicles all around the world, and it seems like the time to announce your next-generation launch vehicles. So Orbital ATK, if they really want to market this thing, they need to start talking about it a bit, or maybe they're still on the drawing board and they're still trying to figure out what they want to do exactly. But all in all, a lot to be figured out there and i think that might be the biggest variable for what antares will fly when it'll fly how often it'll fly you know it's it's funny to say but orbital atk's own plans are going to be the

biggest impactor on what antari's plans are a lot in the same way that Falcon 9 has been affecting the schedule of Falcon Heavy. You know, when they were both originally designed, Falcon Heavy was going to be lifting the heavier geostationary communication satellites, and that was really going to be the thing that launched those kinds of satellites. But what happened was Falcon 9 kept growing and growing and growing and pushing payload capacity higher and higher to the point where they're able to launch nearly the heaviest commercial geostationary satellites that are built to geostationary transfer orbit and then actually recover the booster. So Falcon 9 kind of ate the market that Falcon Heavy was going to enter, and that's kind of what caused the delay. There certainly have been technical issues, and there have been things that SpaceX is just behind schedule on entirely.

But when you look at payload capacities, you can see that Falcon 9 kind of ate the market of Falcon Heavy, at least in the original versions that they were going to do. So in that same way, the next generation launch vehicle could be the one that they want to target to those markets that Antares might not be a good fit for. So that's something that they'll have to figure out with how they play the cards. They have a lot of launch vehicles, you know, they don't just have these two. And recently we heard them sign up with Stratolaunch to launch some Pegasus rockets off of Stratolaunch's giant plane, which I think we're calling the Composite Goose, which I get a little chuckle out of. I like that name.

So, you know, they've got a lot of launch vehicles. They've got a lot of things going on right now across all of their work. So it's pretty impressive to see them in action right now. On that front, I find their future very interesting. And sorry if you're hearing bumping right now on the road. We're at what could possibly be the worst road in Maryland, but I'm not sure. Orbital ATK's future is very interesting.

They have so many different things, so many different ways to go, so many different programs that they're a part of. They've got commercial resupply contracts right now. They've got contracts as part of the SLS program. They do so many things across so many different realms that it's pretty amazing when you consider this is all the same company. To that end, Frank Culbertson was asked in the press conference if, you know, if he could talk at all about the cis-lunar habitat that they've been talking up so much recently. This is what Cygnus would be used for as part of SLS and its roadmap. Orbital ATK released a video in which

they were showing that flying on EM-2. NASA just put out that RFI for EM-2 for the payload that would be flown with Orion, and Orbital ATK showed off how Cygnus could be flown and then used as a habitat for the duration of EM-2 and even beyond that in other missions. And it's something that has picked up a lot of steam, I think, and I think it's a very well-timed proposal. It's something that is extremely well-timed in the political season, in the place

that SLS is, in its roadmap, where CRS is right now. Across the entire realm, I think it's a really great play from Orbital AFTK. They're able to show that the work that they're doing on commercial cargo could have big impacts on the SLS roadmap. And, you know, they're doing this right as a new administration is about to come in and try to fill out the schedule of SLS and fill out the roadmap of NASA and figure out what we're doing with this program. And they're positioning themselves really, really well to be included in that program. Now, where that gets interesting is when you realize that this could be the extending of an olive branch between the two, I don't want to say the two halves of NASA, but there's definitely

something kind of going on between the exploration side of NASA and the commercial ISS side of NASA. You know, they're taking big advantage of the commercial industry on that side of NASA where they're partnering with them for cargo services, they're partnering with them for cargo services. They're partnering with them for crew services. It's something that there was a big part of the administration that was a proponent of early on in the Obama administration. Lori Garver, namely, leading the charge on this. And the other side of NASA has been kind of operating the way they've always operated.

It's the same contractors building shuttle-derived hardware, kind of doing things the same old way that we've been seeing for decades at this point. And these are the two kind of, they're not factions, but there's definitely these competing mentalities within NASA. And this could be the first thing that really extends an olive branch from one side to the other. You know, it's showing that what we're doing in the commercial cargo program can have benefits for the exploration program. You know, if this is used on the exploration program, it's a direct extension of commercial cargo over to exploration. So that also means big things for other people like SpaceX or like Sierra Nevada

or Boeing. You know, maybe it's not their hardware being picked for EM-2, and maybe they're not even proposing hardware for EM-2. But the fact that NASA is starting to pull in a commercial partner into their exploration program, that says big things and yes orbital atk is a is someone who's very much tied up into the sls program you know they're building the boosters they're they're tied in deeply to that old space kind of mentality that the old contractors that that do things the old way and they're very much tied into that but this is cygnus we're talking about this is the commercial side of orbital atk that's getting pulled in in this way. It would be interesting to see something that came out of the commercial program have an impact on the exploration program. And all in all, I think

that would be a great thing for SpaceX or Boeing or whoever's out there that's building something commercial and wants to be included in the exploration program. So when SpaceX is looking at Red Dragon or ITS or whatever else they have planned, right now it doesn't seem that hopeful that NASA would even bat an eye at them. But if they start bringing in these commercial players into the exploration program, that's good news for SpaceX. Now aside from that, Orbital ATK has a lot going on. And this is another factor that I find pretty interesting. They've got Antares, they've got the next generation launch vehicle, they've got Cygnus to the ISS, Cygnus to Cislunar Habitats, Pegasus flying on Strata Launch.

They've even got things like the new green storable propellant that they are working with and uh you know there's so much going on there you think about uh you know the the advanced boosters that might be coming uh in the next decade or something that might drive the next generation launch vehicle and part of sls they have so many projects going on uh and they're obviously involved in a lot of other places as well they've got satellite servicing they've got so many and they're obviously involved in a lot of other places as well they've got satellite servicing they've got so many things they're doing that at a certain point you wonder are they are they doing too much you know it's a it's a question that gets asked of SpaceX all the time very specifically that SpaceX is doing too much but man you look at orbital ATK now granted

orbital and ATK have history, you know, orbital not so much. ATK has a lot of history, but are they doing too much? There's so many different things that they're focusing on. The question becomes, are they doing too much? But the question also becomes, is this stuff that they're going to be doing on their own if they're not given the contract or the money or whatever? Is this stuff that they're self-motivated to do in the same way that spacex is or blue origin is that's a big factor in this is are these all areas of focus right now or are they areas that they see that they could be working in or that they could take the current hardware and the current work that they're doing and apply it in these new ways

or is there a team day in day out focusing on these things hard to say and i don work that they're doing and apply it in these new ways? Or is there a team day in, day out focusing on these things? Hard to say, and I don't think we're going to get any answers out of that for the next little while. They're pretty tight-lipped about future plans and things like that. So it's hard to say, but you do have to wonder, with so many different things going on, is this a lot of stuff that we will see, or is this a lot of stuff that we will see or is this a lot of stuff that we could see because going forward if they're doing all these things regardless if they're doing these through self-motivation if they're doing them through contracts even you know they don't seem to be taking a lot into account from the current changes in the

industry you know ULA is even reacting to the way SpaceX is cutting costs. They're working on Vulcan. They're working on different reusability aspects of that rocket. They're even working on an upper stage that can be used multiple times in space or used for different missions or distributed lift. They're doing things in reaction to the effects that SpaceX has had on the industry. And like them or not, SpaceX has had a big effect on the industry. You know, you don't have to believe in their way to realize that they're affecting the industry. I mean, ULA is responding to that. And I don't know that there's an example of a more old, steady company than ULA. So if

they're doing that kind of stuff, if they're reacting to that stuff, then, you know, others are going to start doing that as well, or maybe face some hard times. Right now, we see Arianespace really just turning a blind eye to what SpaceX is doing and what Blue Origin is doing with reusability. They seem to be shrugging it off right now and saying that it's a fad, it's not going to pan out, it's not going to save that much money, and kind of plowing ahead with Ariane 6. Now, they do have some ideas on how they could make that thing partially reusable, at least, but, you know, overall, they seem to be shrugging off the entire movement. Now, Orbital ATK, we don't know yet that they're shrugging off the whole movement, but

they haven't said a peep about any of this. You know, the next generation launch vehicle, granted we haven't heard much, it sounds like a rocket that would fit the market, you know, 10, 20 years ago, not one that would fit the market that was kind of thrown into upheaval after SpaceX and others came in and sort of changed the way things are working. So not to say that they need to throw everything out and build a rocket with landing legs, but you know, are they going to be able to take all these programs that they're doing, all this different work that they're doing, and adapt it to the way that the market changes over the next couple years as it comes online? Are they going to be able to be nimble enough to react to what's happening in the market

to react to price changes or are they putting themselves too far down one way to really have a shot? You can't get too far down one of these types of methods without thinking about the other side and hope to last long. SpaceX and Blue Origin, you see it with SpaceX now, we haven last long. SpaceX and Blue Origin, you know, you see it with SpaceX now, we haven't seen it yet with Blue Origin, but you do have to take into account some things that are traditionally old spacey things. You know, you can't be a young, mean, lean startup forever. You do have to transition to an operational phase. And with that might come some things that the old

launch providers do, but make things very reliable. And in in the same way you can't be ULA and say that we're gonna sit back and be the old reliable expensive partner and not really worry about price and not worry really worry about reusability they are taking that into account and they're reacting accordingly they're not going all in on it they're not building a fully reusable rocket, but they are taking it into account, applying it to their strategy and reacting to the change of the industry. So I think there's examples right there of a couple of companies that don't fully commit to one direction or the other. And I hope Orbital ATK would kind of take that advice and or take the example that ULA is setting and kind of do the same thing.

That's a big variable to me going forward for Orbital ATK is they're doing a lot, they're doing a ton of different types of things, how are they going to react to changes in the industry over the next couple of years? So before I close up for the night, I just wanted to say thank you very much to all of the patrons that are supporting the show over on Patreon. Patreon.com slash Miko is where you can go

to help support the show. And all of your support is much appreciated and it really, really helps me to do things like this, to take a trip down to a launch, to meet people, to talk to people, to get some insights for the podcast, for the blog. It really, really helps me pull these kind of trips off and I hope to do more of them in the future,

to launches, to conferences, things like that. But I can't do it without your help. This is 100% listener supported. So if you're enjoying the show, I would really, really appreciate a little bit of support over on Patreon. Again, patreon.com slash Miko. And thank you so much to all of you that are supporting the show over there.

Another quick note about the show. I mentioned this last week, but I want to mention it now because this is the week that it's happening. I'm starting a weekly newsletter. This will be coming out this Friday. And it's going to be a weekly thing that's will be coming out this Friday, and it's gonna be a weekly thing that's sent straight to your inbox. It's gonna have the week's news that I've been following, the stories I find interesting,

what I'm following, what I'm reading, interesting projects, interesting links, things that are going on that you would be interested in. Maybe you don't have time to read up on the blog during the week, maybe you don't have time to listen to every show, so sign up for a free weekly newsletter and get a collection of what I've been following throughout the week

to your inbox every Friday. You can go ahead and sign up over at mainenginecutoff.com slash weekly. I will have a link in the show notes, but again, mainenginecutoff.com slash weekly, sign up for the newsletter. I think you're really, really going to enjoy it. So with that, that'll be it for me today. I hope that the audio wasn't too bad for this episode. I thank you for listening to this kind of special episode. I don't intend to do this often, but, you know, this is a special event and something that I thought would be captured better now when I'm driving back from the launch than it would be later after all this, you know, fades into the memories or whatever happens there. So thank you very much for listening. I hope you enjoyed this show, and if you have any feedback, I would love to hear it.

Anthony at mainenginecutoff.com is the email. Send me any of your thoughts. If you saw OA5, if you heard OA5, I want to hear from you about what you thought about the launch of Antares, the return to flight, and what's in store for Orbital ATK ahead. Anthony at managingcutoff.com is the email, and I would love to hear from you. So thank you very much for listening, and I will talk to you next week. Nå er vi på Norske Norske. Thanks for watching!