Main Engine Cut Off - T+272: Moon Rovers, Space Stations, and Starships

Episode Date: April 12, 2024

NASA selected 3 teams to work on unpressurized rovers for Artemis, while Japan signed on officially to provide a pressurized rover in exchange for seats on Artemis landers. Elsewhere, Mitsubishi took a stake in Starlab, and I still needed to catch up on Starship’s 3rd flight and the ensuing update from SpaceX.This episode of Main Engine Cut Off is brought to you by 33 executive producers—Kris, Better Every Day Studios, Tyler, Joel, Fred, Harrison, Benjamin, Donald, Lee, Russell, Warren, Pat from KC, Matt, Bob, Ryan, Josh from Impulse Space, Tim Dodd (the Everyday Astronaut!), Pat, The Astrogators at SEE, SmallSpark Space Systems, Stealth Julian, Jan, Steve, Will and Lars from Agile Space, Theo and Violet, David, Joonas, Frank, and four anonymous—and 817 other supporters.TopicsNASA selects three companies to advance Artemis lunar rover designs - SpaceNewsJapanese astronauts to land on moon as part of new NASA partnership - SpaceNewsMitsubishi takes stake in Starlab Space - SpaceNewsStarship Flight 3 Excels through most Major Milestones - NASASpaceFlight.comSpaceX planning rapid turnaround for next Starship flight - SpaceNewsElon Musk just gave another Mars speech—this time the vision seems tangible | Ars TechnicaThe ShowLike the show? Support the show!Email your thoughts, comments, and questions to [e-mail] @WeHaveMECOFollow @[e-mail] on MastodonListen to MECO HeadlinesListen to Off-NominalJoin the Off-Nominal DiscordSubscribe on Apple Podcasts, Overcast, Pocket Casts, Spotify, Google Play, Stitcher, TuneIn or elsewhereSubscribe to the Main Engine Cut Off NewsletterArtwork photo by SpaceXWork with me and my design and development agency: Pine Works

Hello and welcome to Main Engine Cutoff, I am Anthony Colangelo, and I want to catch up on a bunch of news, somewhat spread across the things that I usually cover, but there's been a lot of talk of moon rovers of late, there's been some space station movements that I found interesting. And I really need to catch up on Starship after a great launch and an update from Elon Musk down at Starbase. A handful of things to talk about, somewhat related across the board. I think Starship is part of every single one of these stories, interestingly enough. So first up, NASA selected three companies to begin work on unpressurized rovers for the lunar surface that Artemis astronauts would use when they're there, that would be robotically operated when they're not there.

Japan officially signed on as committing to a pressurized rover for the Artemis missions, and the U.S. has responded in officially announcing that a Japanese astronaut would be the first non-U.S. astronaut inside an Artemis landing vehicle down to the lunar surface. We've had Mitsubishi take a stake in Starlab, which is a story that I've been following along with and been intrigued by over the past couple of months. And then, like I mentioned, Starship had a great test flight, a little bit of an update after that. So there's a lot to catch up on. Let's start with that Starlab story, just because it's maybe the most self-contained of any of these things. So Starlab is a joint venture right now between Voyager Space and Airbus Defense and Space. It was a project that was started as NanoRacks. NanoRacks was acquired by Voyager.

And then that has sort of developed from there. Starlab is part of NASA's commercial LEO program at large. It's one of the designs being worked on for the free-flying space station alternative or commercial alternative in the future to the ISS. Axiom Space is working on their space station that would be attached to the ISS at first, and then there's these others that are working on free-flying space stations, and Starlab was part of that initially, and has since kind of found this interesting tactic and political strategy really to expand the partnership base beyond just a NASA program. So they started engaging with Airbus, and that eventually led to an agreement with

the European Space Agency. And I found that a very good tactic to expand the partnership over to Europe because it gets a little European buy-in on their particular program. Europe in particular is never that interested in sending a bunch of money to US space companies to then develop a capability that they're beholden to. There's always a little resistance to that, whether that's, you know, you can put your own spin on it, salt to taste, whether that's them being bitter about the commercial launch industry moving all in the SpaceX direction, or, you know, they just think that they would be responsible to have their own capabilities internally, which I find a defensible strategy for sure. But in that same vein, you know, when we're looking at beyond ISS,

there's not been a lot of feedback from the international partners about what they would like to see. So we've got a lot of talk from NASA about wanting to go in this commercial space station direction. But ESA, JAXA, Canadian Space Agency, have not all really stated where they're at on what they want out of this. You know, we joke that the Canadians just want to be able to sell a robotic arm to another space station. And maybe that's true to some extent, but we don't know the desire from those partners of how many astronauts do they want in low earth orbit at all times? Do they want to maintain such a presence in LEO? Do they want a certain amount per year? Do they want just a

certain cadence over time? It has not really been expressly stated, but we can imagine that it's not zero. They don't want to have nothing going on in LEO. If China's got their own space station, NASA's working on these commercial space stations, you can assume that these other partners want to still be partaking in this somehow. So with Voyager being proactive in this regard and striking up this partnership over into the European industry, that I think it's a lane in for Starlab to have something unique above all the other competitors, that there's a possibility there to be embraced by the European market, to get additional funding or support from the

European market in a way that the others wouldn't have as easy of access to, and to make it a project that has a wider base of support so that when any particular country or company or partner has hard funding times, which we're having here right now, that you've got others to lean on or spread the load, at least, and get some buy-in from those partners. And so I found that an interesting strategy, especially in an era when Europe has talked about wanting their own human spaceflight program. And in a lot of cases, that meant developing a spacecraft and a launch vehicle to be able

to launch astronauts to orbit themselves. And I get that, but that's a huge, huge budgetary expense. It's a huge development effort. And the timeline there is so long where I feel like the commercial space station side of things is much more achievable in terms of budgets and timelines and iteration cycles. I just find that's much more approachable when you look at the relative budgets between NASA, ESA, JAXA. It's something that scales really well over the European market. Now, I'm not completely blind to the fact that that seems incredibly unlikely to happen, but I think it is a good strategy for Voyager to take when the others are not going that direction. So at least there's some different ways of approaching it there. And now they've gone the other direction and extended this partnership to include Japan via Mitsubishi. They are taking an equity stake. We don't know how much money

they've committed or how much equity they got. But if it's in that same vein of trying to extend this partnership to a wider base of support and include the current partners on the ISS to boost the program a little bit. I think that's a really good strategy and something that is an interesting differentiator among this market as it emerges. Now to keep on the Japanese side of things for a little bit, there was a big event this week. There's a huge state dinner here in the US, and they went all out with all the trappings. But there was also an announcement between NASA and Japan that made official what we had known, that Japan at large, I say Japan

because it is inclusive of JAXA and Toyota and other partners there, that they are working on a pressurized rover for use on the lunar surface as part of the Artemis program. So they will be responsible for designing, developing, operating this vehicle. NASA is going to be providing launch and delivery of the vehicle. They are looking at, you know, potentially using a cargo version of one of the human landing systems. So either Blue Moon or Starship to get this to the surface. But it's a pretty beefy rover. It's designed to operate for 30 days with two astronauts to be used over 10 year lifespan. So those, you know, consumables will be replenished over time. So it's a serious, serious spacecraft. And it, you know, it totally looks futuristic when you when you look at what this might be. But

when you look at that, and what its its ideal mission is, it's really cool to think about that this is in the realm of possibility for sure. So in return for providing this rover to be used on the Artemis missions this way, Japan is receiving, right now, two seats down to the lunar surface as part of this deal. And this is the currency of the Artemis program, right? Contribute something, you'll get some seats down to the surface. And not only is Japan getting these two seats to the surface, it's been stated that they will be the first non-US astronaut to have one of these seats down to the lunar surface, likely as soon as Artemis 4, because in the past, NASA's talked about having a non-US astronaut on Artemis 4 for the landing. The rover is not going to be there until Artemis 7. So presumably a Japanese astronaut would fly as part of Artemis 7 to

be there with this rover for the first time. But they also have a landing before that. The other partners don't yet have a seat on a landing mission. So Canada's got someone on Artemis 2. They've got a seat on a future Gateway mission. European Space Agency has three seats overall. We are likely seeing them on Artemis 4 four and five and then we don't know yet know what that third seat is nor do we know when their first landing would be uae has a seat

to the gateway as part of their contribution for the airlock so you know this is the first landing seat we know about not the first gateway seat japan's also got a gateway seat as well so it's interesting to just watch the currency trade this way. But this is an important announcement for Japan, for Artemis overall, because committing to this kind of program is really interesting. This is a serious piece of lunar infrastructure. They are committed to these gigantic lunar landers to get this kind of infrastructure down to the surface, not only land on the surface, but then get it down from the lander. That's a big commitment. And it's an embrace of the scale of landers that we've seen from Blue Origin and Starship, you know, even more so. Not that NASA is not committed to that now,

there are, you know, everything if not committed to that. But it's, you know, further down that direction is quite interesting. And I don't know, I think it's a notable statement that this is really happening and not just kind of like rumored about and talked about for years. Now, of course, it could end up that way, right? It could just get pushed back and back and back and then go away, but sort of doubt it. JAXA has been really good at executing on space missions in the past. They've been smaller scale planetary missions um and obviously they have a whole astronaut core that flies up pretty frequently and they've got you know infrastructure as part of the iss for sure so they do have a good track record and i'm really interested to follow along with this program because it is just you know i think it's

the first really serious piece of lunar surface infrastructure if you don't count the landers right and obviously the landers are huge so they're they're some sort of habitat on the lunar surface but in terms of permanent lunar infrastructure uh this is one of the earliest ones that's been given this much of pomp and circumstance on its rollout and committed to we don't have that elsewhere we don't have a lunar surface habitat right now from another partner. We've got talks of different power systems or power networks that we've talked about with Astrobotic before.

But in terms of a flagship thing that someone is working on, this is it right now. And it's something that I think should be tracked as closely as any of these other pieces of the Artemis program that we're looking at between Artemis 3 and 5. You know, we get a little sidetracked with Gateway for a bit in my view, but this serious lunar surface infrastructure is important and, you know, is worth our attention as it develops. So in that vein, I want to talk about rovers and Starship a bit more. There's a lot to talk about about each of those.

But first, I want to say thank you to everyone who supports Main Engine Cutoff over at mainenginecutoff.com slash support. There are 850 of you, something like that. I can't really tell with Patreon. I did try my best to sort through their new tools. It is still none of the numbers add up, to be honest. But I'm pretty confident to say that this episode of Miko was brought to you by 33 executive producers. Thanks to Chris, Better Everyday Studios, Tyler, Joel, Fred, Harrison, Benjamin, Donald, Lee, Russell, Warren, Pat from KC, Matt, Bob, Ryan, Josh from Impulse Space,

Tim Dodd, The Everyday Astronaut, Pat, The Astrogators at SCE, SmallSpark Space Systems, Stealth Julian, Jan, Steve, Will and Lars from Agile Space, Theo and Violet, David, Eunice, Frank, and four anonymous executive producers. Thank you all so much for your support for making this episode possible. This is 100% listener supported. So if you like what I'm doing here, head over and support me on wherever at madeinjakotoff.com slash support. You will get Miko headlines in your feed. I just recorded one right before this runs through all the stories of the week, everything that you need to care about, and it filters out all the stuff that you don't need to care about, which there's a lot of these days because space is very noisy. So I think it's a great service if you're interested in the space industry. So check

that out if you're interested. I really appreciate the support. It's what keeps this whole thing operating. So thank you all so much. All right, we talked a lot about the pressurized rover. Let's talk about the unpressurized rover because this is something that is nearer term. It's something that would be used quite a lot on the Artemis program. I think you could see these working in tandem quite effectively. And it's another case of NASA trying to extend the services model to something that maybe does or doesn't fit with that. And I think this one's curious because I actually think this does fit with the services module better. I keep saying module. I don't know why. Probably because I'm a developer and that's how I think, but I think it

fits better with the services model than some of the others in recent past. So I want to unpack that a little bit, but first the high level, three teams have been selected to, for a feasibility stage where they're going to push their designs forward. They're going to end up with a preliminary design review. And then from that point forward, one or many would be selected for development and operations of this rover. The overall lifespan of this contract, the LTV services contract, is $4.6 billion over 15 years. That is inclusive of this feasibility stage. Also a development stage that would be five years after this first part is done,

and then 10 years of services beyond that. The pricing of this I'll get into in a second, because there is a source selection statement now that I can have dug into a little bit. So I want to talk about a few things out of there. But the teams overall, Intuitive Machines is leading a team building Moonracer. That team includes Boeing, Northrop Grumman, Michelin, AVL, AVL that is. The lander that will deliver Moonracer is Nova D. That is the bigger version that Intuitive Machines is working on. They landed Nova C on the moon in February. Nova D is the bigger one that would deliver this rover down to the moon. The next team, Lunar Outpost, is working

on robotic rovers as under the name Lunar Dawn. That includes Lockheed Martin, MDA, General Motors, and Goodyear. Take a guess what Goodyear is doing. Venturi Astrolab is the third selection. They're building their Flex rover. We talked about this last year at space at the space symposium, which is happening this week, actually. Uh, but they, they talked a lot last year about this and they actually had a model on the show floor there that they're going to be sending one of these to the lunar surface with the starship launch, uh, in late 2026 as they're scheduled right now, they've got Axiom space on board and Odyssey space research, uh, as part of their team.

So these three teams were selected. There were some that were not. So in the source selection statement that NASA posted, there were actually nine teams that submitted. Astrobotic, Blue Origin, Dynetics, GTI, Intuitive Machines, Lunar Outpost, Orbit, Venturi Astrolab, and 360 Degrees. There were three of them that were excluded immediately, 360 Degrees, GTI, and Orbit. Those proposals did not fit the requirements of the RFP, so they were tossed out. And the other six were, um, were, uh, what did, I feel like I read a company in this list that is not in the list above. Oh, yeah, duh. Dynetics is flying the Lidos flag, uh, Lidos flag, um, and they refer to them back and forth in this

document. But anyway, the other six were evaluated, and we were left with the three winners in the competitive range. They all got pretty good scores overall. Pricing was interesting to look at. So I mentioned the whole contract has $4.6 billion value over 15 years. Each of the competitors gave a total evaluated price as part of their contract here, or part of their RFP response. That includes a demonstration mission, three standard mission A missions, and then seven standard mission B missions. That is what is inclusive in this price. Plus like some other stuff, mission unique capabilities,

special studies and task schedule, just some other stuff in there. But I think the main driver is those 11 missions as defined. So Intuit machines, they got, let's see, I think they ended up with the lowest mission suitability score by just a few points, lowest mission suitability score by just a few points, but their price was $1.69 billion. They had a 724 out of a thousand for the mission suitability factor. There were some other factors in here, but that was the one that went on. They went on most length talking about strengths and weaknesses. Then, you know, others were past performance, price, that kind of thing, management. But I think the most interesting stuff was the mission suitability. Lunar Outpost came in at $1.73-ish billion. They had a mission suitability score of 863 out of 1,000.

And then the final was Astrolab. They came in at $1.93-ish billion and a mission suitability score of 905 out of 1,000. One of the main strengths that was talked about for Astrolab was their ability to handle higher slopes than the others. And that was called out as favorable by NASA because they would be able to take... It would increase the potential for astronauts to take certain paths on the lunar surface. Especially important down the south pole where you've got pretty wild terrain something like that being able to take more intense slopes is is interesting so there were strengths noted like that they really liked

intuitive machines trailer that i guess could get hooked and unhooked from this thing um so it's a interesting read if i mean it's not that interesting of a read, but there's some interesting notes in it. Um, but overall the, the, the way that this is structured is that, uh, NASA wants these unpressurized rovers for the Artemis astronauts to take, you know, not as long journeys as the pressurized rovers that I'm talking about, but longer journeys than they would be able to on foot. But importantly, they would want these rovers to be able to operate robotically when the astronauts are not there.

So these would be used by the astronauts when they're there, but they would be able to be doing additional science or infrastructure work when the astronauts are not on the lunar surface. And that is why it's structured in a way that can handle both things, that it's not just like being delivered alongside a lander, driven for a little bit, and then tossed out. These things really need to have a long lifespan. So it's, just like being delivered alongside a lander driven for a little bit and then tossed out these things really need to have a long lifespan so it's again like the pressurized rover this is a serious piece of lunar infrastructure it's going to operate for 10 years on the lunar surface in a not very forgiving environment uh intuitive machines during the press conference was talking about the ability to go there and and upgrade this and uh you know like perform maintenance on it and stuff so they're all certainly thinking in this direction.

The services aspect, though, is interesting because NASA is talking about the next phase of this, beyond the feasibility study, when they select one for development and then they get into services, that they might only select one winner for that. And interestingly, they're going to fund development of this rover. So it's actually different than something like Eclipse, clips, right? Where they're funding task orders.

They're not funding development of the clips vehicles. They're funding task orders. In this case, they would be funding development. So, um, in, in a way, this is not the same kind of services contract, uh, in another, because again, you're, you're going to pick a single winner. So there's not going to really be any competition at that level, like on the actual, here we go, like a service for Artemis 6. It's not like you're going to be competing for a fare, like an Uber fare for Artemis 6. Like, hey, we're going to land on the moon and then we want to make it to this crater. You give us your best rate. That would be a real kind of head-to-head services contract. And maybe they will get there. Maybe they will have enough budget to fund to and fly them both to the lunar surface. And then there is some competition to,

do you want to, you know, what's your rate for the human mission that's going to this crater? And what's your rate for the robotic mission that's going to that crater? And then you're competing on a, you know, more like task order award at that point, once you're on the lunar surface, that could be interesting. That is probably long-term what they want to get to with the services contract. But the idea, I guess, is then to provide enough wiggle room that these teams could sell some of their time of their rover or sell some operations of their rover to industry, to non-NASA customers, as is NASA's desire. to non-NASA customers, as is NASA's desire.

But again, that would have to fit with the NASA schedule, right? They'd have to do that when NASA is not reserving time on the rover. So are there certain windows where NASA's like, we're only going to want you to do this, this, and this. You can figure out what to do with the rest of your schedule. I guess that's how that would work. But there's a lot of logistics of, well, maybe that customer wanted to traverse to that other crater and do some observations. And can you make it there, do the observations and drive back in time by that, you know, by when that team, when the next team of astronauts is landing on the surface.

There's interesting stuff like that. But I think with NASA stating that they're going to allocate some of this money for development that avoids some of the log jams that we've seen with other task order based awards. I don't really know how this is services. I really don't know how the spacesuit one is services. That doesn't make any sense to me. This is obviously like more reusable as a piece of hardware than a spacesuit is. Spacesuits are reusable to some extent, right? They're really reconfiguring space station suits today when they're doing spacewalks, they're switching in torso sizes and, uh, different pieces here and there.

Um, but for the intensity of what a spacesuit is doing on these missions, it's like, I don't know, man, that seems pretty boutique and pretty one-off and, uh, pretty high level. Whereas, you know, you could see a world in which landing a fleet of astrolab rovers on the lunar surface and then operating them as service-based vehicles that is much more foreseeable than uh rent a spacesuit is at the moment so i think i'm less harsh on this idea uh but we'll see how it develops anyway so this uh contract the ideal is that they're operating these vehicles from artemis 5 onwards astrolab called out in their they were called out in the source selection

statement as uh wanting to co-manifest this payload on artemis 4 but being willing to fly it separately on a starship if they need to uh for timeline so that's interesting uh both parts that are interesting co-manifesting it on a blue moon lander or flying it on a starship separately because of timeline, does that mean they think that they would need it on the surface earlier or later? I don't know exactly how that works out. But anyway, there's a demonstration mission funded as part of this program. So maybe they need that to be completed by the time the first real mission would happen and they're kind of hedging their schedule a little bit that way.

Astrolabe has intentions to put these things on a starship outside of this contract, or at least that's what they said last year. So maybe that's just them saying, like, we want to fly this on the moon as soon as possible. If Artemis 4 is ready, cool. If not, we're going to the moon. I hope that's what it is. That would be my hope with it. But we shall see. So all in all, I think this is pretty cool. I am shocked there has been very little technical

detail put out around this announcement. The press conference of it, I think I was texting Eric Berger when it was happening that this was like a chat GPT version of all of the press conferences that have happened for Artemis Awards over the last five years. Like it was pretty much like I always do this thing where I, my wife hates it, but I will see like a post game interview of a hockey player on TV and I will just dub over it what he's probably saying. And it's right. 99% of the time she hates it. I feel like I could have done that for this press conference to a certain extent. Um, but you know, I think this is a cool mission and I'm curious to see it develop now last little bit on the Starship front. Um, they had an absolutely Epic third flight of Starship talked about a little bit when we were talking about, uh, are we talking, uh, about K2

space a couple of shows ago, but I feel like now I should go on a little bit more at length about how epic that launch was. The improvement from Starship 1 to 2 to 3 is, you know, classic SpaceX. It is truly something to witness. And I think they're in such a good spot for, you know, the overall program. And they're starting to really refine what their iteration looks like. I think in the early days of these orbital flights, it was unclear. You know, there was so much unknown when they were flying the first one, even the second one. Now with free in, I think they've got a good sense for what they need to work on, what's pretty well understood. And they're able to kind of, you know, focus their

iteration a little bit more. And we saw in this flight, you know, doing things like opening the payload door, trying to do this fuel transfer. They're picking off, I mean, even honestly, testing the Starlink connection all the way around Earth was really interesting, and it made for amazing video. But they're getting that iteration cycle down to what feels more like a modern SpaceX level, whereas the first Starship was just so janky and all over the place, and clearly they needed to work on everything. And the more they go, it starts feeling like what we've seen before from SpaceX, which is issues here, there, but overall a really successful flight. And I feel like that's going to continue. They're not going to fly Starlinks on the next flight, which is coming up in just a couple weeks. It seems like

they really want to nail down this in orbit relight of a Raptor before they get more complex in terms of deploying payloads or doing rendezvous for fuel transfers or something like that. So they're not, I don't think they're worried about it. but I think they have to prove it out either for themselves or for, you know, the regulatory bodies that they need to get approvals from. They need to make that work and they need to prove that that works and be able to do it a bunch. the the sort of inflection point of the development of starship graph there where it's gonna tick up quicker than we are ready for at this point you know i think the phase between the suborbital tests and now has been very long and longer than any of you would have given me credit for if i if i knew like the day they landed whatever the last suborbital one they landed was 15 or whatever uh if if I came on here and said what the schedule would be from that point, all of you would have unsubscribed immediately.

And yet here we are, like they're still ticking along. But it does feel like they're finally at that acceleration point. You know, if they're able to get this next flight off in May and then keep even every two month schedule from that point forward is a lot of starships flying this year. And I think seeing how much they improve from flight to flight gives you really good confidence about where they'll be by the end of the year. If they're able to even go every month, then that's absolutely enormous. Like this kind of launch vehicle flying every month is huge. And, you know, hopefully they'll be fairly far along getting one of these ships back through the atmosphere by the end of the year. And, you you know then it's then it's showtime once we're able to do that so you know all in all just an incredible flight from starship and very encouraging to see

that the update that elon musk gave at starbase i thought was you know my criticism those in the past have been that they start out with such near term like here's how good everything is right now and here's what we're working on and here's how awesome it is and then it ends up with like and we'll land on europa and do a colony and this that and it just gets so long term so fast that it distracts everyone who's not a nerd listening this show of of how near-term this stuff is this felt more appropriately dialed in that sense you know there's always the tail end of those that's you know how many millions of tons can we send to mars and in 20 years we can have a self-sustaining colony or whatever um so there's always a tail end of that and that's just what you're going to get

out of those kind of updates but it did feel more appropriately dialed in on uh how near term someone's infrastructure is and talking about you, the moon being a really good spot because of faster iteration cycles is very space XE and leans into what they're actually working on in the next couple of years. Uh, so that that's encouraging as well. And, uh, I also feel like I should note how little I talk about Falcon nine on this show. After so much of my early years were focused on Falcon 9, you know, here I am eight years in and I talk about it almost never. And it is working better than like any launch vehicle ever works. They just continue to work and all the landings go successful and they're almost at 300 landings. And it's absolutely mind boggling to see the rate that they're flying Falcon 9s and how well

they're executing on that. And that was called out, you know, on that update as well. But it is worth talking about because, you know, like I said, I just focused on it so much in the early years and I feel like I don't talk about it at all right now. So I need to remind myself of that every once in a while and not just get distracted by the literal shiny thing that's that they're flying these days, but, um, they're just killing it on the Falcon nine front as well. So all very cool to see. Anyway, those are my rambly thoughts. Uh, Starship is going to launch the pressurized Rover, some of the unpressurized Rovers that NASA awarded contracts for Starlab and its own self. So yeah, this entire show has been about things that Starship is going to launch, which is cool.

But anyway, that's all I've got for now. Hope you enjoyed the rambly Anthony Swartz through the recent news show. I got to get better at doing these. But you know, I'm 273 episodes in. So give me a break if I feel like I've said everything before. I've got to find some new things to say. But hopefully I did today.

So thanks all for listening. Thanks for your support as always. I've got to find some new things to say, but hopefully I did today. So thanks all for listening. Thanks for your support as always. ManageatGutOff.com slash support if you want to join the crew. If you've got any questions or thoughts, hit me up on email, anthonyatmanageatgutoff.com or on Twitter at wehavemiko, on Mastodon at miko at spacey.space, or join the OffNominal Discord, offnom.com slash discord. We're always hanging out in there. It is a great spot to hang out.

And yeah, that's all I've got for you. Thank you all so much.