Main Engine Cut Off - T+281: Star Catcher (with Andrew Rush, President & CEO)

Episode Date: July 24, 2024

Andrew Rush returns to the show to talk about his new venture, Star Catcher. They are working to build an energy grid in space, beaming energy directly to existing solar panels on satellites in LEO.This episode of Main Engine Cut Off is brought to you by 31 executive producers—Steve, Kris, Theo and Violet, Warren, Ryan, Josh from Impulse, Better Every Day Studios, Lee, Jan, Harrison, Fred, Matt, Donald, Tim Dodd (the Everyday Astronaut!), Pat, The Astrogators at SEE, Stealth Julian, Joonas, Russell, David, Pat from KC, Will and Lars from Agile, Bob, Joel, Frank, and four anonymous—and 821 other supporters.TopicsAndrew Rush (@RushSpace) / XStar CatcherStar Catcher (@StarCatcherInd) / X@starcatcherind • Instagram photos and videosStar Catcher | LinkedInThe ShowLike the show? Support the show on Patreon or Substack!Email your thoughts, comments, and questions to [e-mail] @WeHaveMECOFollow @[e-mail] on MastodonListen to MECO HeadlinesListen to Off-NominalJoin the Off-Nominal DiscordSubscribe on Apple Podcasts, Overcast, Pocket Casts, Spotify, Google Play, Stitcher, TuneIn or elsewhereSubscribe to the Main Engine Cut Off NewsletterArtwork photo by NASAWork with me and my design and development agency: Pine Works

Hello and welcome to Made in Engine Cutoff, I am Anthony Colangelo, and today I'm joined by Andrew Rush. He has been on the show a couple of times before from Made in Space and Redwire, but today he's here to talk about his newest venture, Starcatcher. They're just making a bunch of announcements today. They're kind of coming out and showing the world what they're working on. So I'm very excited to talk with him. It's a really interesting project.

A lot of exciting aspects to it and things that are really interesting to consider for the future as well as, you know, the near term. So I think it's a great conversation. I hope you enjoy it. And here is Andrew. Andrew, welcome back to Main Engine Cutoff. This is the third time you've been on the show, I think it's a great conversation. I hope you enjoy it. And here is Andrew. Andrew, welcome back to Made in Engine Cutoff. This is the third time you've been on the show, I think. I think so, yeah. Thanks for having me back. Potentially different company names each time. I think you were on first as Made in Space, second as Redwire, and then here you are running a new venture, Starcatcher. So we're finally doing the hat trick here on the show.

That's right yeah uh number one love the name uh super intrigued by the concept and uh this is also going to be an exploratory show because i've got a little bit of an intro on what you're working on via email um but definitely need to to dive a little deeper on exactly what you're up to. So we'd love a rundown on how this idea came about, what it is, and where you're going from here. Yeah, absolutely. So I'm really excited to announce that along with my two co-founders, Mike Snyder and Brian Lionvert, that we founded Starcatcher.

And our mission at Starcatcher is to eliminate power constraints on space operations. You know, for my whole kind of professional and personal life, I've just wanted to enable people to do more in space and to do new things in space. And oftentimes, as space professionals,

we think about things in terms of swap. You know, size, weight, and power. That's how we, that's what we design our spacecraft, that's what we design our satellites, and, you know, one day moon bases, and, you know, commercial space stations, and the like. And, you know, SWAP stands for, you know, size, weight, and power. And over the last 10 years, we've seen the aperture really open up on the size and weight element, right? Because of the advent of reusable launch vehicles from SpaceX and Rocket Lab and all the folks that are coming to the fore now in that arena. And that's really great. But nobody's really addressing the power.

We're still doing power in the traditional way. We launch spacecraft with solar arrays. Those solar arrays have the one sun that they get 1360 watts per meter square from, and they generate power. And yet we want to do more and more in space, and more power-hungry things in space. We want to connect our cell phones to satellites in space and stream Netflix.

We want to do edge computing on orbit with the latest and greatest NVIDIA GPUs, just straight out of the box, into the spacecraft, into space. And we want to do things like synthetic aperture radar, which are incredibly useful to commercial and the warfighter alike, but are power hogs. Against that backdrop, the average ESPA class satellite, small low Earth orbit satellite, runs on 1,000 to 1,500 watts of power. So about the energy that your refrigerator runs on. But to do those things that I was just talking about, we really want the amount of power that like your house has

available to it or a small industrial park has available to it. And so looking at those constraints and really looking at the market and saying, hey, for the first time, there's an actual geographic concentration of customers in Leo that all have this common power constraint, this common power need. We realized that lends itself to shared infrastructure, to building a space to space power beaming power grid to give people more power, keep people higher concentrations of power, and even give people power in eclipse. So that in a nutshell is what we are, what we're doing at Starcatcher. This is one of the ideas that sounds like a thing that I would come up with at a bar,

at a conference late at night. Like what if we just zapped power to other satellites? So like, what was the process towards realizing you know is there is there something that makes this a possibility now is it is it purely the size of the market in leo that makes this feasible or is there something that's changed on the technological level that that has become something you're interested in you know i i would say that that we actually got kind of similar feedback on Made in Space. That also sounded like a company that, you know, hey, this is a cool idea. Let's 3D print in space. And, you know, and we did that. And, you know, one of my co-founders, Mike Snyder, he and I have been working together for a decade. for a decade. First at Maiden Space, he was chief engineer there. And then at Redwire, he was the chief technology officer.

And now he's co-founder and CTO here with me at Starcatcher. And Brian Leinberg, also a great well-known guy in the industry, has a great venture capital, capital formation background, and a great operator background. So really, part of it was the three of us coming together and saying, okay, what are the big things that we think that we can address? And this power constraint is felt by everybody. Every mission has a power budget. Every mission you want more or you want more margin.

And so I said, okay, how can we tackle it? But I would say that it's not just the market opportunity. There's some key insights technologically and how we are approaching this that make this really possible and feasible. The first is we're building a constellation of assets. We're building a constellation of assets. We call them power nodes that collect a large amount of power from the sun and then transmit that power to our client satellites. And everybody's in LEO. We're sitting at 1,500 to 2,000 kilometers.

Each power node can service 50 to 100 customers simultaneously. And we are transmitting to them broadband, broad-spectrum solar energy in the wavelengths that solar arrays are highly efficient at converting photons into electricity. And so just to hit that point really hard, we use the customer's existing solar array to send them additional power. So they don't need a special receiver. They're not locked into only using us and not getting power from the sun. We're using their existing hardware, so there's no retrofit required. And one of the key insights is that solar arrays are band gap semiconductors at the end of the day. So if you send them a photon that's above a certain energy level, they convert that readily into electricity.

And if you send them one sun of flux, they'll generate the amount of power they generate now on orbit. If you send them five suns of flux, they'll generate about five times that much power without any meaningful degradation to the solar array. And same thing with 10 times that amount of flux. There's demonstrations in the lab that you can get up to 20, 40, 50x.

We're not going that high. We don't really see a need to go that high. But this is also something that the BepiColombo mission is going to experience as it flies to Mercury. At Mercury, it gets 10 to 12 suns of flux. And it just uses regular PV that they bought from a commercial provider. So those are some of the insights and also how we're approaching the customer because we recognize that this is a paradigm shift, right?

We're going from a camping trip model to a shared infrastructure model. You know, we're going from, you know, lean twos in the woods to suburbia. We want that to be an easy adaptation for our customers so that we can push infrastructure forward because I fundamentally believe that enables us to commercialize an industrialized space. One of the aspects that obviously is required in this case is tracking the other satellites, knowing where they are, where to shoot this power, is that something that is reliant on getting the right numbers from, you know, Leo labs or other providers that are tracking these things in orbit? Or is there some sort of capability that your system would have to image and track target satellites? Yeah, that's a great question. So the approach that we have with our clients is, you know, they'll sign up and they'll say, hey, I want you to provide power to my constellation or to this band of the constellation or this tranche of my system.

And they will provide to us initially their orbital elements, which, you know, which they know. They know roughly they know where their spacecraft are. And then we will, you know, we'll provide, you know, we'll upload that to our system. And then the power nodes themselves have some tracking capability on orbit. And so they'll, you know, they'll, they'll in real time look for where, where the client satellite should be. And we're sending kind of, we're sending a narrow band of energy to them, you know, and look, think of it as like a really big flashlight that goes really far. Uh, and we'll essentially just kind of raster it in the area that the, you know, that, that,

you know, their orbital elements will define and then we'll, you know, and then we'll, you know, localize where they are and then, you know, feed that into the spacecraft, uh, and track them in that way. Um, it's, it's really, uh, it's honestly, it's analogous to some of the ways that we do spacecraft tracking on orbit today and some of the ways that a Star Trekker, for example, would behave. Yeah, is there anything also with inter-satellite links, the laser comms, these new terminals that are really popular these days in Starlinks or the Space Movement Agency has been working on this kind of stuff.

Is any of that play in here as well? Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. So the technological advancements and the TRL raising that we've seen happen for laser communications for OISOs on orbit is, you know, feeds, really feeds the technological stack that enables us to do this. Rather than us sending ones and zeros back and forth between assets, we're just sending flux, we're just sending energy. But you're absolutely right that the technological advancements

that have occurred for LaserCom and for Backhaul, you know, have analogies here with StarCatcher. There are instances with Starlink or others that are, you know, when they're passing over areas where there might be another satellite broadcasting that they kind of tune themselves down or turn themselves off where they don't want to interact poorly with another system. Is there anything in this case that there is to be worried about with like, you know, if another satellite happens to fly by as you're blasting this beam towards the other satellite, will they get a huge power surge?

Is that a problem? Are there thermal concerns here? Yeah, those are great questions. And so like, when do you start melting a satellite, I guess is a part of this question as well. Hey, we're all about providing energy so people can do more mission. And if your spacecraft is degraded, you can't do more mission. So we want to...

You care about not melting satellites, it turns out. Yes. Exactly. We're not Sid from Toy Story. So good. So yeah, we have a little bit more of a complex conjunction analysis than a traditional satellite, right? Because we're not just like one satellite with its space operating. We're a satellite with these with its space operating we're you know we're a satellite with

these with these energy with these energy beams coming off of it um i prefer to call them lightsabers if you want to internalize that just throwing that out as a naming convention yeah it sounds a lot like the satellite building no okay yeah you know flashlights flashlights um cool beams um that's that's the you know that, that's what we'll call them. So, you know, so we'll be doing that conjunction analysis and absolutely, right?

Like we don't, we want to be good neighbors. We will be good neighbors to everybody in the space community, right? Like our, we're motivated personally and professionally

to enable people to do more in space. And that means that we, we want to be good neighbors to other folks on orbit. And so absolutely, you know, we'll be using the kind of the state of the art approaches for conjunction analysis and augmenting that by saying, hey, you know, we're, we got this beam that's, you know, a couple hundred kilometers long or a thousand kilometers long that we need to, you know, that we, you know, as somebody might be passing through it or near it, we, you know, a couple hundred kilometers long or a thousand kilometers long that we need to, you know, that we, you know, as somebody might be passing through it or near it, we, you know,

we will turn it off for, you know, for the second that they're traveling through the box that, that, you know, might, might result in them, you know, getting a little bit more energy than, than they want to get. You know, from a, from a thermal perspective, one of the, another, another one of the key insights and technological approaches that we're taking is sending energy in wavelengths that the photovoltaics in the client spacecraft solar array are highly efficient at converting into electricity. What that means is we're sending them, you know, we're sending them energy that, you know, they're converting, you know, 80, 90, 95% of the photons that are coming in into electricity. And so that generates

very little additional waste heat for the system. You know, we're not sending deep IR, which the solar rays are not efficient at converting. You know, we don't, you know, we're not, unless we're talking about like an on the moon, kind of keep alive, keep warm situation, we're not interested in making the spacecraft warmer, only in giving it additional power. Okay, that's interesting though.

Like, is there something, is there anything about your tech that is specific to that wavelength, or is it something that you could build different models that are tuned for different wavelengths and actually have something broadcasting down into the south pole of the moon, keeping things warm? So certainly we've looked at a lot of different solar arrays and how people build those and the different frequency responses that they have.

And so having a system that works across all those different kind of vendors and use cases is what we've taken on. And as folks develop new solar array technology, we will adapt to that. I personally really, really love the idea of putting a star catcher power node in lunar orbit to give landers and rovers and eventually habitats additional energy, right? And to help solve some of the infrastructure problems we face there, right? That like the lunar night's 14 days long and power and heat are two of the big challenges, right?

Like we have these amazing like lunar train studies that people have done and power is one of the challenges that they have. And, you know, it's really awesome that we're going to have these crude studies that people have done and and power is one of the challenges that they have and and you know it's really awesome that we're going to have these these these crude and uncrewed rovers on the moon with the with artemis but one of the big challenges for those that constrains operations is hey if this guy goes down into a crater and and he's not getting sunlight uh it could you know it could go power negative and and die, and we don't want that to happen.

So putting a power node up around the moon and then beaming power to those folks to keep them alive, keep them warm during lunar night, or even operating, it's kind of a pet project. The commercial economics don't quite close today, though I'm optimistic that in a few years, that case will really come together. Yeah, I don't think we're that many landers or rovers away from that, honestly. If you just watch this year alone, how many have been like, well, this is the end of our mission for now. We'll see if it wakes back up on the other side. how many have have been like well you know this is the end of our mission for now we'll see if it wakes back up on the other side um there's certainly you can imagine a case there where you're coming over occasionally and just giving a little boost on both thermals and and power and keeping them alive during that time period it's not like they need continuous broadcasting um so but like you know there's been a bunch of moon landings this year so things continue and there's

more and more going on there um it's certainly one of those things that that you look at in the market of like nasa supporting a comms net around mars and we're all looking like well these things are on their last leg are you going to continue building out this kind of it's base infrastructure that uh you can very much foresee the need for um so it's cool i've never even considered this way to do that, which maybe shows my lack of imagination, for sure. But it's really, really cool to think about that very futuristic feeling. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, it's, it's, it is something that I do, I agree with you, I think is more near term and, and, and having the right kind of private public

partnerships that we've seen, you know, that we've seen with the Tipping Point program, we've seen with the Clips program, and we've seen ESA start to do as well. Those, I think, will really enable those kind of things. Especially when you think about just straight-up cost trade-off, right? I don't know how much an individual node costs for you guys right now, but you compare that against what does it take to build something like a rover or lander that can survive the lunar night and multiple lunar nights the cost differential

quickly flips in the other direction of like well can we get by with some occasional boost for and that's something that you're investing in that goes across many missions not just one single mission so it doesn't take a lot of math to realize how that turns the corner. That's really exciting. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and the other thing is you see the, you see the, some of the landings that we've seen that they landed, they soft landed, but maybe they didn't land perfectly.

Right. So some of their arrays are covered up. I mean, listen, none of them landed perfectly this year. So that's, that's been a real 2024 storyline. Yeah. Yeah. But those, I guess one of them did. One of them landed great and

returns labels. The other ones all had some chaotic ending to them. So those folks, though, that's another really interesting use case of this network, right? Is that if folks laid it off in a nominal way, we can send them additional flux and keep them

running, keep them running longer. And that's actually a use case when we first started doing customer discovery on that, like calling folks and I would say, hey, we could send you, you know, one to 10 tons of flux. We could send you, you know, a few hundred watts to dozens of kilowatts of power. What do you think about that? And folks were like, yeah, this is great, Andrew. We also have these other use cases. And one of them that came up was helping people recover from off-dominal events, not only on the lunar surface, but in orbit.

Yeah, yeah. Solar panel failures. Exactly. Yeah. Yes, exactly. Yeah, we've seen multiple. We've seen a few of the space tugs kind of go up and, like, have one solar ray pop out, maybe, but not both. array pop out maybe but not both and then they get in this you know this power negative situation where they have a limited time to diagnose what's going on and recover and maybe and deliver for

their customers and and we've had some of those folks say you know boy i wish the star catcher network had existed then because you could have just sent me some additional energy and we could and we could have maybe saved the mission uh we could have delivered for our customers and like that's that's exciting to me that those sorts of use cases that we don't see yet, that we know we don't know all the use cases of building this kind of infrastructure.

I think the use cases we can see are awesome and inspiring, but the ones that folks also, the yes ands really like help me, you know, keep me getting up in the morning. It rounds everything out. Operationally, I'd love to dig in a little bit on how you see this all working, both on your side and also the clients as well. So on your side of things, is the way that these nodes are designed is to produce a significant amount of power, and you're going to use some little bit of that to run your spacecraft,

but broadcast the majority of it away? And is it all, you know, straight from your solar arrays out to others? Or is there some sort of, you know, you're charging large batteries to be used when clients ask for it? Yeah, yeah, no, those are great questions. So we're not storing energy on the spacecraft.

We're just collecting and collect condition and redirect essentially. And so we have some physics limits that we fight, you know, and diffraction to name a few. So over the distances that we're talking about, You know, so over the distances that we're talking about, you know, we're, you know, you collect a lot more energy than what you ultimately like deliver to the customer. And so building the system in a cost effective way that, you know, that, you know, you know, is really kind of, you know, is one of the important things to do for us to be able to deliver the energy to the customers. And are these going to be built in-house or custom-built nodes, or is this something that you'd go and look to K2 or someone that's looking at very high wattage systems right now?

Yeah, that's a great question. And, you know, we've built a couple of space companies, so we're familiar, you know, so we've done make-buy, and we've built customer relationships, or excuse me, vendor relationships over a good period of time. And that's something that we've been really able to leverage even now is to say, okay, we have some good vendor relationships from past companies.

So we can use that technology. We don't have to vent that technology from other folks. We don't want to vent that technology from other folks. At the same time, you know, we will have a significant control authority because these are big spacecraft collecting lots of energy, you know, big surface area. And so we will have some unique operational challenges that will inform that make-buy decision. For the clients themselves um this may still be a little speculative or you're having these conversations but uh do people that are interested in this so they they tend to be like i need very consistent power over these times or

is it something where they know they have a high energy event coming up where they meet we're going to do a lot of image capturing or a lot of sensor work or very specific times that they want the power. Yeah, I would say it's a good, it's a good mix. Many of our, many of the customers that have, you know, that we've talked to that have signed letters of intent with us, um, are, are really excited about the notion of being able to, being able to increase their, their orbital average power consistently so that they can take their uptime from 10% to 100%. Many of those customers also look at this and say, hey, if you could give us an additional boost of power in this portion of the orbit where we're doing orbit raising

or orbit maintenance, we can get those tasks done quicker. We can get those tasks done more efficiently. And so it really does come in a couple of different flavors. And are there constraints on locations of either your satellites or the client's? So there may be, you know, for your purposes, you might need to be at a certain altitude to make this even feasible where orbital period is longer, and you've got more time to generate power to actually operate for longer yourselves. I'm not sure if this works down, you know, in LEO itself, where you're kind of on the same timetable as everyone else. Is there a balance there that you have to figure out?

So that's a great question. And we really looked, we really looked a lot at the, you know, at different orbits, and how that would affect, you know, uptime for the system, track ease of tracking ease of ease of staying locked on to our client satellites. And where we ultimately ended up is, is that our constellation will be in Leo along with our customers, right? So we can roughly pace them and provide them additional energy in a relatively straightforward way. That also means that the kind of baseline con ops is, you know, they're generally sun facing. If they have SATAs, if they can control where their solar rays are pointed, they're generally sun facing, and we're generally coming from where the sun is to give them

additional flux. Same thing kind of with folks that are body mounted, you know, where they're dealing with a changing angle all through their orbit, you know, we're coming from the same direction. So they don't have to change the behavior of their spacecraft, you know, when they're facing the sun, they're just kind of spacecraft, you know, when they're facing the sun. They're just kind of either, you know, we're just beaming them that energy. And, you know, it lessens the the pointing requirements and the tracking requirements being in LEO versus, you know, versus being in a MEO or a GEO orbit. Or at least those would be when you want to start serving that market. If there becomes a market in G geo where they want extra power,

it might make sense to co-locate with those as well. Exactly. Exactly. Why would somebody go this route where, you know, instead of getting themselves bigger solar arrays, more powerful solar arrays, or, you know,

increasing their capacity, you know, once, once you get into the eclipse generating the power time, like, you know, saving more power, you know, once, once you get into the eclipse generating the power time, like, you know, saving more power for when they're in eclipse, why would somebody go this route with that kind of hardware? So this does, this does two really amazing things. If you're, when you're designing, when you're designing your constellation of the future, one by, by utilizing the Starcatcher network, you can reduce dramatically your upfront

costs, right? Like, you know, if you have a given power budget, you can literally say, hey, I don't need, I can outlay less on power generation capability and get that power from StarCatcher. Our model is a kind of annual pay-as-you-go kind of model, just like with your local power utility. And so from a CFO perspective, we're shifting CapEx into OpEx, which for space folks is really important because most, most companies, you know, in the buildup that like, like the, the there's, there's a technological value of death,

but there's also a capital formation value of death. And, and when your system, you know, when your overall architecture costs hundreds of millions of dollars, if you can drop that by 20, you know, 10,

20% or more that, that helps, that makes that valley like a little less deep. And that's, you know, so that's exciting for us. And then, of course, the other one is that ability to augment. The ability to augment is to say, and we're having this conversation with folks right now who say, hey, I'm designing this remote sensing constellation. We've got this amazing imager on board that has really high resolution images and

multi-spectrum. And, you know, we've got all these GPUs on board to do analysis. But my power budget to run all of those all the time and keep the spacecraft operating in a healthy orbit, you know, is five or six times the power generation capability I have. So I'm only able to keep my, I'm only able to do my revenue generating, you know, insight providing workflow 10% of the time. But Starcatcher lets in, but if I can hook into the Starcatcher network,

I can, for the same bomb for that spacecraft, for the same cost for that spacecraft, I can get, I can 10X my capability. So, you know, rather than building 10 times as many satellites to deliver that virtual uptime, I can just use those assets. So what is the route from here?

Sounds like there's some plans for getting a demo up. What's the roadmap on the technical side? Yeah, so we're really excited to also kind of publicly announce that we closed our seed round. We raised $12.25 million. It's co-led by Initialized Capital, which is a really well-known early-stage investment firm in Silicon Valley, and then B Capital, which is a really awesome multi-stage firm. Howard Morgan is their chairman, who's the co-founder of Rentech and the founder of First Run Capital.

He's just a legend. And then Rogue VC, really high conviction, awesome deep tech firm. And so with that seat around, we have three goals. One is to build an awesome engineering team. We're excited to say we have 11 folks today. We plan to double that by the end of the year. So folks that think this is cool and inspiring, please reach out.

Let's talk. And then the next objective is to do really meaningful integrated end-to-end demonstrations of the technology on the ground. So let's show, hey, we can collect power, condition, and transfer it to faux satellites

on the ground. And then the third goal is an on-orbit demonstration. So we're planning to launch a subscale demo sat in December of 2025, so the end of next year, to get that all-important flight heritage on the technology to show that we can do the whole workflow, collect, condition, transmit energy to a client satellite in free space. Who's the lucky winner of the

free power for the first demo test? Are you going to have a little raffle or something? Yeah, maybe we should. Maybe we should. We should come up with something clever to... This is more of an off-nominal podcast kind of situation, but we should do like a March

Madness style bracket challenge to figure out which satellite gets the landed power for their demo. Yeah, that sounds like fun. Count me in if you want somebody to filter through that. I can come up with some good suggestions there. This is awesome. If people want to follow along or if they want to join the crew, is there anywhere in particular you want to point them? Yeah along or if they want to join the crew, is there anywhere in particular you want to point them?

Yeah. So if you want to join the crew, the website is star-catcher.com slash careers. If you want to learn more generally, just take the careers part off. And we're on Twitter. Sorry, I'm never going to call it X. And LinkedIn and Instagram. Awesome. This is, yeah, I love the name. It's an excellent name. I'm pumped about it.

So this is going to be a really cool project to follow along with. I'm excited. Hopefully we can keep talking as you make your way through the entire roadmap there. So I appreciate very much reaching out and getting this set up before, you know, everything. This is coming out right when the announcement's hitting. So happy to have you on here and thrilled that you came back. Yeah. Anthony, thanks so much for the time and the discussion as always.

It's been a pleasure and we look forward to keeping you and everybody, you know, apprised of the progress. And over the next year or so we we expect to have some really cool demos to show off to folks and and you know you know we'll work to to include you and other folks as much as possible thanks again to andrew for coming on the show and uh joining me a really exciting project that uh i was thrilled to be able to dig into with him so let me know what you think if you've got any comments or questions or whatever, hit me up on email, anthonyatmainenginecutoff.com on Twitter at wehavemiko. And, uh, before we get out of here for the day, I want to say thank you to everyone who supports the show over at mainenginecutoff.com slash support. There are over 850 of you across Patreon and Substack now. If

you are a more of a Substack person, mainenginecutoff.substack.com. We're up on there now. This episode was produced by 31 executive producers. Thanks to Steve, Chris, Theo, and Violet, Warren, Ryan, Josh from Impulse, Better Everyday Studios, Lee, Jan, Harrison, Fred, Matt, Donald, Tim Dodd, the Everyday Astronaut, Pat, the Astrogators at SCE, Stealth Julian, Eunice, Russell, David, Pat from KC, Will and Lars from Agile Space, Bob, Joel, Frank, and four anonymous executive producers. Thank you all so much for making this episode possible. This is a 100% listener-supported show, so if you like what I'm doing, head over there, support the show, get Miko Headlines in your feed. It's a separate podcast I do every single week, running through all the stories of space, keeping you up to date. You're supporting me doing this.

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