Main Engine Cut Off - T+76: Caleb Henry

Episode Date: March 27, 2018

Caleb Henry of SpaceNews returns to talk Satellite 2018, megaconstellations, flat-panel antennas, and the current state of the satellite industry. This episode of Main Engine Cut Off is brought to you... by 28 executive producers—Kris, Pat, Matt, Jorge, Brad, Ryan, Jamison, Nadim, Peter, Donald, Lee, Jasper, Chris, Warren, Bob, Brian, Russell, John, Moritz, Tyler, Laszlo, Joel, and six anonymous—and 149 other supporters on Patreon. Caleb Henry (@CHenry_SN) | Twitter Caleb Henry, Author at SpaceNews.com Satellite 2018 LEO and MEO broadband constellations mega source of consternation - SpaceNews.com SoftBank says GEO operators besides Intelsat can sell OneWeb capacity - SpaceNews.com What would it take for SoftBank to invest in SpaceX? - SpaceNews.com OneWeb asks FCC to authorize 1,200 more satellites - SpaceNews.com There’s something strange going on amid the satellite Internet rush | Ars Technica SSL bags Amos-8 and BSAT-4b manufacturing contracts - SpaceNews.com Email your thoughts and comments to anthony@mainenginecutoff.com Follow @WeHaveMECO Listen to MECO Headlines Join the Off-Nominal Discord Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Overcast, Pocket Casts, Google Play, Stitcher, TuneIn or elsewhere Subscribe to the Main Engine Cut Off Newsletter Buy shirts and Rocket Socks from the Main Engine Cut Off Shop Support Main Engine Cut Off on Patreon

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Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to Main Engine Cutoff. I am Anthony Colangelo, and we've got a special guest with us today. We've got Caleb Henry of Space News here to help break down some of the news from Satellite 2018. But before we get into that, I do want to say a quick thank you up front to all the supporters of Main Engine Cutoff over on Patreon. There are 177 of you supporting the show over at patreon.com slash Miko, including 28 executive producers who have produced this episode of Main Engine Cutoff. executive producers who have produced this episode of Main Engine Cutoff. Chris, Pat, Matt, George, Brad, Ryan, Jameson, Nadeem, Peter, Donald, Lee, Jasper, Chris, Warren, Bob, Brian, Russell, John, Moritz, Tyler, Laszlo, Joel, and six anonymous executive producers. They made this episode possible. I could not do it without their support and everyone else over at patreon.com slash Miko. Don't forget, there's headlines each week to get if you're at $3 or more a month over on
Starting point is 00:01:08 Patreon and you can get access to the off nominal discord for $5 or more. Thank you all so much for your support. I could not do this without you. Caleb, thank you very much for coming back on the show. It's been about a year probably since you were on, right? Almost. Maybe around there. Yeah, a little less.
Starting point is 00:01:26 I think it's just typical now after satellite conference each year, you're coming on the show. I think that's what we've decided. That's a good pattern. I can deal with that. So yeah, we're going to dive into all sorts of news from that. You spent the week just engulfed in it, and we've got a list here of all sorts of topics that came out of it. Do you want to just start with maybe some general takeaways
Starting point is 00:01:50 on what you experienced during the week and any main trends or things that you really took away from it? Sure. So I guess the biggest trends, or I'll say this, an interesting pattern that you can watch at the satellite show is who they give the keynote speakers to. This year, the keynote was given to an antenna manufacturer that's trying to design a, they won't exactly call it a completely flat, a flat panel antenna, but they're trying to design a completely new antenna that's supposed to work really well with future satellite constellations, including some of the mega constellations like OneWeb and SpaceX and Telesat. A year or two ago, that spot went to Greg Weiler of OneWeb.
Starting point is 00:02:37 They also had a keynote this year on satellite servicing. So those are usually indicators of what the big thing is or the big theme is going to be for that year. And I think you saw that really strongly this year compared to a year or two ago where there was this rise of attention to the space side of the new megaconstellations and thousands of satellites in orbit, hundreds and thousands. You're now seeing people looking at some of the more technical questions. How do you make sure that if you launch hundreds or thousands of satellites that you'll actually be able to use them all?
Starting point is 00:03:11 That requires simple user terminals on the ground that can connect with them and let you stream the internet and have people pay you for it so you can justify it. Yeah, totally. You can actually use anything that you've put up there. you for it so you can justify it. Yeah, totally. You can actually use anything that you've put up there. And that's something in that you feel like there's a lot of misconceptions about how that works and something that doesn't cross a lot of people's mind that this isn't just
Starting point is 00:03:34 something your phone is going to be able to pick up immediately, that there is this other section of the market that totally needs to be figured out before any of this can really come into full fruition. Certainly. Another interesting fact on that. So I never expected to actually be excited about antennas. I'm still kind of scared about that. But there are also, I'm blanking on exact dates, but I want to say it was about two, maybe three years ago that Northern Sky Research, dates, but I want to say it was about two, maybe three years ago that Northern Sky Research, the analyst firm, put out a report on flat panel antennas. So in a nutshell, first off, if you talk to somebody who builds antennas, they'll go on for like an hour and they just won't stop.
Starting point is 00:04:16 So prepare yourself if you ever do. But the basic premise is this. Most satellite antennas today are parabolic, the dish that you recognize everywhere, and those are not really good at tracking more than one satellite at a time. There are other limitations, but that's probably one of the biggest for these new constellations. In order to have something that can track multiple satellites at a time, you need to have what's...you typically want what's called an electronically steered antenna. And NSR used to be tracking like 12 companies that were pursuing designs that could do that. Now it's over twice that amount. And so they're, they're spread out
Starting point is 00:04:57 across Europe, across the U S and Asia. And you've got lots and lots of people trying to crack this side of it in order to make these come to reality. So people are investing a lot of money, including your big satellite companies, you know, Intelsat and SES and even smaller operators or medium-sized operators like Hispasat and SkyPerfect JSAT are all getting into this. It's definitely a new, I'd say a noteworthy trend. Now, from what you're picking up at the conference, are the manufacturers of the flat panel antennas, the people that are still working on it, developing the technology, are they keeping their cards close to their chest right now and not really sharing a lot of what they're working on because there's still major breakthroughs that need to
Starting point is 00:05:44 happen? Or is it kind of widely known what the problems are, what they're working on because there's still major breakthroughs that need to happen? Or is it kind of, you know, widely known what the problems are, what they're overcoming, and, you know, how the path from where we are now to shipping massive amounts of these antennas, is that a clear path? Or are they all still trying to figure out their own way there? I think it's a mix. You've got some, obviously, Kymeta and Phaser that are both talking about product shipments this year. Kymeta is already shipping and Phaser, I believe,'s a mix. You've got some, obviously, Chimeta and Phaser that are both talking about product shipments this year. Chimeta is already shipping and Phaser, I believe, is really soon. Others are a little bit more reluctant to come out and say entirely what they're doing. Isotropic came out during the conference itself, and they were one of the keynotes that talked about their antenna,
Starting point is 00:06:21 which their founder used to work for O3B, has a lot of knowledge about what it takes to make a non-geosynchronous satellite system work. I also want to add that it's not fully fair to peg all of their success or anybody's one success on mega constellations. People are still really skeptical as to how those are going to pan out. Antennas are a big part of it, but I think for the ground guys, like the people building antennas, their business success is not predicated
Starting point is 00:06:52 on the success of the megaconstellations. Whether or not it's so much the other way around is more debatable. Interesting. And in that regard, the two big players that people think of are SpaceX and OneWeb. Knowing the way that SpaceX typically runs, which is let's make everything ourself. Is there any, do we have any ideas of their if they're going to go with their own units or if they're going to use, you know, other people's flat panels or white label them somehow? Do we have any idea what they're planning in that regard? planning in that regard? So I think there was a Wall Street Journal article
Starting point is 00:07:24 that name dropped somebody SpaceX was working with on an antenna, but I don't recall who it was off the top of my head. That is a signature SpaceX thing, they do as much as they can in-house. This is a really complicated side of it, so I don't know how they would go about doing that. Not that it's impossible
Starting point is 00:07:45 for them but this is something that you know even even as i start to say this statement i realized that you could say the same for rockets my first thought is like oh people have been trying to build better rockets for decades and you know that was so difficult and then spacex came along so maybe the same thing will happen here where it'll be like, oh, people have been trying for decades to create this breakthrough ground unit. And then SpaceX will come along and be like, figure it out. Yeah. Somehow I think that's the phrase that peaks ears in Hawthorne is, you know, people have been trying this for years and it never worked out. It's kind of their specialty.
Starting point is 00:08:19 That's Q for challenge accepted. Exactly. The OneWeb has had some interesting movements on the mega-constellation front the last week or two. They put this application in to the FCC to massively increase the count of their satellites because FCC relaxed some rules
Starting point is 00:08:36 on how quickly you have to get all these satellites up. Do you have any thoughts on that move by them in general, what that could indicate, or is it just them trying to keep up with the existing law that's out there? One thing that was really interesting to me about that development, you're right. The original application that they had with the FCC was for 720 satellites. And they've indicated before that they want to do a larger system than that over time.
Starting point is 00:09:07 Once the FCC relaxed their rules on how many satellites you had to have in orbit in order to still have rights for the spectrum and permission to serve the US market with that spectrum and the satellites, when they changed that from you have to have everything up in six years to you can have half of it up in six years and the full thing in nine years, then SpaceX wants to, excuse me, not SpaceX, OneWeb now wants to add 1260 more satellites on top of that. To me, that speaks to the magnitude of the influence that the US market has on this system. Because if OneWeb is willing to reconsider the number of satellites in their entire constellation
Starting point is 00:09:49 just based on one market, knowing that their goal is global, it really tells you something about how much the US system influences these constellations and how much potential they see here. Because I think all of these constellations know that they have to have some markets that they can rely on. If you don't have like a guaranteed market where like people are definitely going to pay you enough money to justify building and even doing more ambivalent programs,
Starting point is 00:10:19 like connecting schools in Africa and Latin America and elsewhere, you want to have that backbone. And so now that there are less restrictive rules, I think that was a little bit of a telling side insight from how that came about. Part of me wonders if they are just trying to raise their ceiling as high as possible. And because it's half in six years, the full thing in nine. And if you don't get all of your satellites up in nine, you get your authorization reduced to whatever you have in orbit. Is that how it works? Yeah, it kind of freezes out wherever you reached. So I'm wondering partially if they're just raising the ceiling to be like, well, we'll
Starting point is 00:11:00 get as many up as possible. And this is the most we could possibly support and they're taking the opportunity to increase that headroom uh i don't know that's probably a little conspiracy theory but it's it's a massive jump from being okay with 720 to all of a sudden wanting 1900 satellites in orbit that seems like a huge diversion uh when spacex all along has been talking up you know 4 000 or whatever they're gonna put up there yeah it's certainly way more uh i wonder how much the availability of just launch capacity is going to change over that time you know when one web signed their contracts with ariane spas for i think it was 23 still use and then there's some options for ariane launches as well as 30-something version
Starting point is 00:11:45 orbit launches. Both of those were discussed or labeled as some of the biggest launch contracts in history for that program. Now, OneWeb also has Blue Origin as a launch provider. I think that perhaps it's the increasing number of launch providers that's giving them confidence that they can put up more satellites because launch is traditionally viewed as the bottleneck but now you have so
Starting point is 00:12:11 many systems that are coming online that maybe they're less scared about delays yeah but not not actually having enough capacity to put that number up at all could we take any hints out of that um to say that maybe their production plant plans have been going better than planned because that's the other half of this right they have to make that many satellites in just a few years uh and i know they've got their initial run over in france is it and then they're going to move to florida after that so could that be an indication that they're very confident in their production line capability? I think they certainly are confident in the ability to do it.
Starting point is 00:12:58 But another detail that came out from their filing or one of their filings is that they didn't drop the month of the launch anymore. Or rather, I should say, they didn't mention it in their filing. They used to say May, and the recent one, the one that they asked for more satellites, they just said our first launch is in 2018. So that makes me a little circumspect as to how tightly they are holding to that schedule. Yeah, at least for the initial run. I don't know. Yeah, exactly. Now, the other thing that's on your list,
Starting point is 00:13:23 I guess we'll just polish off one web news while we're here. Well, I other thing that's on your list, I guess we'll just polish off OneWeb news while we're here. Well, I have one weird story, which is that whole Greg Weiler situation, but maybe we can get into that later. But you brought up the interesting comments that SoftBank had at Satellite about how they were going to be managing OneWeb capacity. Could you talk about that a little bit and also give some background on the structure between SoftBank and OneWeb because it's a bit of an odd relationship there. Yeah, it is. So when... Gee, where do you begin with this? Can you please re-explain the last seven years of the satellite industry? SoftBank invested like a billion dollars in OneWeb. And at the time, SoftBank, they were kind of like the priest at the wedding between OneWeb and Intelsat when they were trying to get together and become one company.
Starting point is 00:14:17 And it didn't happen. It fell apart. But during that process, there's a lot of connective tissue that still remains between those three companies, because SoftBank was also going to invest in Intelsat at the same time. So now you have this arrangement where Intelsat still has rights to sell some of the capacity that OneWeb has, but SoftBank, through their investment, bought all of OneWeb's capacity. They're actually their whole customer, which goes into the master plan that Masayoshi Son
Starting point is 00:14:53 has for creating this incredibly interconnected world that's really, really futuristic, for lack of a better word. But yeah, there's this plan there. I thought an interesting takeaway, again, was the fact that during SoftBank's luncheon presentation during the satellite show, they mentioned that they'd be willing to partner with other operators besides Intelsat to sell capacity. And the reason that that's so interesting is because you've got regional operators that know that there's no way in the world that they could afford to spend like billions of dollars on a mega constellation but they certainly don't want to be upended by these guys either so they watch them
Starting point is 00:15:35 very closely but they're also cautious about what they can do because they know that they're just not big enough and they don't believe that they're big enough to get into this space. That could open up an opportunity for lots of players in the existing satellite ecosystem to participate in the OneWeb megaconstellation. And maybe you'll see others follow a similar route. I think perhaps a parallel would be with Inmarsat, your large British satellite operator that has their Global Express network, which covers the whole world using three satellites and a fourth as a backup, and they're building a couple more. But they've included a payload from Telenor, the Norwegian satellite operator, to cover part of Europe just because they had the same type of capacity in an area where Inmarsat wanted more. It was like they had their whole network, and then they teamed up with a regional player so that they could have a greater point of presence there.
Starting point is 00:16:35 And maybe you'll start to see the same thing with OneWeb and others. One last point on that would be that when the InSat merger was teetering, there were rumors that other satellite operators might have wanted to come in and buy OneWeb as well. So I'm curious if anybody who was also a suitor might try and come back. Now, is that a statement at all on... It seems like a big piece of the plan here that SoftBank is now floating to, hey, we're open to something different. Do you think because of the way, was it the merger that caused them to rethink their overall grand plan or was it maybe some shifting in capacity usage or even increasing capacity by adding 1,200 satellites total? What is it that's driving that change of thinking from SoftBank's direction? To be honest, I don't know if it was a change of thinking or something that they just hadn't vocalized before. But it was a surprise to me that they suddenly expressed this willingness to have other teammates. What SoftBank has said in the past is that
Starting point is 00:17:46 they see OneWeb as a long-term investment and that they're willing to shore up other parts of the industry to make it happen. You can see it in even some of SoftBank's other investments. SoftBank has invested in more than one ride-sharing outside of the satellite ride-sharing. We're not talking like space flight. Actual ride-sharing. Yes, like Uber. They've invested in more than one of those because they have a plan. And their plan involves, again, this interconnected world where they want to have vested stakes in multiple parts of
Starting point is 00:18:25 their entire ecosystem. I could see SoftBank trying to do something where they realize other areas that they could invest in in the space sector that could make their grand plan come together more fluidly. And of course, the fact that Intelsat couldn't close the merger has to play into that. But I think that their willingness to go big has never been underestimated. Yeah, it's like a megacorporation is like a different term.
Starting point is 00:18:59 But when you see how much they want to be involved in globally, it's like starts to feel like some sort of Marvel villain running the whole world. I don't know. Last one web thing I've got, and I don't know if you've got any thoughts on this. We didn't talk about this before, but this whole like Greg Weiler shell companies buying Boeing's mega constellations of what the hell's going on with this? Is there anything that you've got on this front? So I've seen that filing too.
Starting point is 00:19:29 The, that is definitely weird that Boeing wants to give one of their constellations over to this company with like a barcode style name. It's like SOS, SOMS one, one Oh one, something like that, that,
Starting point is 00:19:43 that Ben Weiler would control. My thoughts on it, well, first you have to back up and ask yourself, why is Boeing getting into this in the first place? And Boeing has been fairly tight-lipped about their reasons for having filed with the FCC to build a mega constellation. One of the theories that I think is particularly interesting is that Boeing doesn't actually want to field a constellation, but they're willing to do the groundwork, like the heavy lifting on a regulatory front, so that if somebody was like, you know, this sounds like a good idea, they could come in and they would build it,
Starting point is 00:20:23 and it would keep their manufacturing engineers busy. So maybe they saw an opportunity through giving a filing to Greg Weiler that would give them a slice of the manufacturing for another batch of satellites against their aircraft, our tribal Airbus, who is helping OneWeb. It could be a foot in the door that way. But otherwise, like you said, it's real weird. There's a lot of weird stuff. Yeah, it's really strange. The interesting thing I heard a couple years back, maybe just a year back or something, was there was a rumor going around that Apple was looking to get into some sort of constellation and that there was people from Apple spotted at Boeing and having some conversations. And there was this whole like, I don't know, it turned into like a fan fiction thread about what Apple would do with a constellation of their own. But, you know,
Starting point is 00:21:19 when you're your kind of theory here is that there was something bigger in their plans to get involved with that maybe didn't work out and didn't pan out. And now they're kind of theory here is that there was something bigger in their plans to get involved with that maybe didn't work out and didn't pan out. And now they're kind of just nobody knows what to do with it because they didn't plan on building one anyway. It's just a really weird story. I'm interested to see where that ends up, but probably not worth our time right now if there's like no information on it. I mean, the fact that you've got I remember that rumor as well, that Apple might be interested. You look at all your big tech companies, your Facebook, your Google, your Apple, Samsung, up in one of their researchers was like, you know what would be cool?
Starting point is 00:21:58 A mega constellation. And they wrote a paper on it and then everyone freaked out. They're like, does Samsung want a constellation? But Samsung never really went beyond the like, this is a cool idea. And if we were going to do it, maybe this is what it would look like. That was kind of the end of the line for them. But I think within the space industry and within this larger, you know, just internet tech industry, there's a lot more overlap than people realize, even so far as just
Starting point is 00:22:27 employees shifting back and forth between the two companies. And so it's no surprise that ideas that start germinating in one company might actually hatch in another. It makes complete sense because of the level of integration between the two that might not always be apparent on the surface. There's a lot of Google DNA still in OneWeb, I believe. That project did have roots elsewhere. And then I think there might have been a company in between there that people rolled out and started something on their own. And it's just like, I don't know, everything's getting all tangly these days with tech and space which is good for nerds like ourselves but um the other big thing that i wanted to talk to you about uh before we run out of time is there's been a lot of people apparently doing
Starting point is 00:23:16 a lot of math on satellite servicing specifically life extension and apparently the math is working out well because we've seen a couple of contracts be signed for some life extension services. What do you make of all that? Is it just merely a couple of people trying out what the services could do for them? Or do you think this is a real trend that we're going to see get a lot more expansive than it is now with just a couple of contracts signed? I think it's in part a responsive trend. It is definitely interesting that in like a year, maybe 18 months, we've gone from this being
Starting point is 00:23:52 a speculative thing, largely. I mean, besides like the shuttle servicing Hubble and some pretty rare events, it's gone from things like that to, oh, there's three companies that are all building satellite servicers and all plan to launch them in the next couple of years. And they all say they've got customers. Maxar Technologies, SSL has SES. Orbital ATK has Intelsat. And Effective Space Solutions, they haven't named their customer, but they say they have two contracts where they're like space drone small sat servicer things or servicers fit in a small sat body, I should say.
Starting point is 00:24:36 One of the thoughts that I have on that is it seems like the servicers could be in part a response to the hesitance within the overall satellite industry to buying new satellites. This is something that you'll hear manufacturers and the actual satellite servicer providers say themselves, is that there's so much change going on in the satellite industry right now that the operators are scared to just straight up buy a new satellite. Yeah, so they're just kind of committing to their old projects. Yeah, it's like, you know, we'll just keep this one a little longer and see if, I don't know, the next version is going to be better. They might not want to commit to the iPhone 8 yet if they know that the next version is right around the corner.
Starting point is 00:25:25 So that's the bar of Peter Platzerism, if you've ever talked to him from Spire. He would like to talk about smallsats as being the iPhone-ization of space, where it's like this level of tech refresh comes along, coupled with a level of impatience for the old way of doing things. You start to expect satellite designs that are newer and fresher and faster all the time. And for an industry that's not used to moving that fast, when it takes you as long to build a satellite as it does to get a college degree,
Starting point is 00:25:57 and somebody comes along and is like, oh, by the way, we're building a factory and it's gonna create a couple of new satellites every day. You know, just a couple of them. Like that causes people to freak out and reassess entirely what they're doing. Yeah. And they're almost taking a step back and be like, am I the crazy one or are they? I don't know who is right here.
Starting point is 00:26:17 Yeah. I mean, that plus like the launch, you know, launch is in such a weird spot right now because we're on the precipice of all these new launch vehicles, of all these new providers that, you know, those two things coming together. I totally understand why there's this hesitance to, you know, embrace one more of the old model when it costs you half a billion dollars all in to get something up in orbit. So, you know, the way that you're saying, you're talking about that there, that does make sense to extend the life of, you know, your assets a little bit just to see how things shake out in the next two years before you make any decisions that will last a decade or more. Yeah, the fact that you brought up the changes in launch vehicles is another good point because come 2020, 2021, you'll see Aerion 6, assuming everything keeps schedule, you'll see Vulcan, you'll see Aerion 6, you'll see, you know, Ariane 6, assuming everything keeps schedule, you'll see Vulcan, you'll see Ariane 6, you'll see Japan's H3, and you should see the Proton variant. I think Proton
Starting point is 00:27:13 Medium should be up and running by then. That's a lot of new, oh, and New Glenn as well. You've got a lot of new vehicles, and I'm going to keep interrupting myself. Who knows if India's GSLV will become a mainstay in the commercial sector too. I think India's gotten used to some success and notoriety with PSLV for small sats. When they finally mature their larger rocket, maybe they'll be a player. So you've got so many new vehicles, but new vehicles are a higher risk of failure than established ones. So maybe as a hedge against what could be a sudden unexpected bottleneck if rockets start blowing up left and right, people just want to keep them in orbit for a little bit longer.
Starting point is 00:28:03 I'm really interested to see how it goes. And it looks like Orbital ATK is, you know, they've added a couple of components to their architecture overall. So they seem pretty confident. They seem like they haven't really been upset by the whole Northrop Grumman situation. So I'm super intrigued to see how this all goes.
Starting point is 00:28:19 But like everything, it's what, I guess we'll see one launch this year or two launch this year. And then the rest are 2020, like every other space project ever. Always 2020. Yeah, 2020 is going to be nuts. You're going to mark my calendar. But yeah, we're at the precipice of a lot of really exciting things.
Starting point is 00:28:38 The same things that are giving satellite operators angst and headaches and keeping them up at night are the exact same reason why the industry is so exciting to cover right now yeah there's so many ways that it can go that it's going to be very intriguing to see how different things are you know five years from now when we're just into that new era because it really does feel like we're at this transition point and you know things could be pretty much the same in five years or it could be completely different which is always fantastic so i hope you'll uh keep coming back after satellite 2019 and all those other years before we get everything settling down again for you know the next era of whatever it is that comes certainly be happy to uh Is there anything else that you wanted to mention before we close up for the day here?
Starting point is 00:29:29 One other takeaway from the satellite show that I suppose is a little bit invalidated today, but something I was expecting during the conference was the announcement of new geostationary satellite orders. And that didn't happen. There were zero during the week of satellite. No new satellite during satellite, which I thought was funny. But just today, you had two orders that both went to Space Systems Loral, one for Space Com, the Israeli satellite operators Amos-8, and then one for BSAT-4B for a Japanese company. So you're seeing some new orders coming in, but we talked about this in the context of everything else already,
Starting point is 00:30:08 just satellite servicing and the fact that you've got all these new constellations coming up. But again, the industry is at this inflection point and you can see it just in the way different companies behave. But once, hopefully, they can't sit on their hands forever. So I think there's going to be a lot of investments and a lot of decisions. And like we were saying earlier, the next five years or so could bring about a lot of
Starting point is 00:30:38 radical change. Or who knows? Maybe it'll completely revert back and you'll have geo reign supreme and people will be saying, I told you so. He did this in the 90s and it didn't work. And then you thought you were clever and you tried it again and it still didn't work. And I don't know. We'll see who's right. It's going to be exciting. So where can everybody out there follow along over the next couple of years? Where are you writing? Anything else you want to plug? Let them know where to find you. Window for a plug. plug well you can always follow
Starting point is 00:31:06 follow me on twitter i'm trying to be better at the twitter thing i might have said that last show which means perhaps i'm not really improving i do tweet at least once a day and live tweet launches and stuff like that but yeah you can follow me at c henry underscore sn on twitter and then you can find my work on Space News alongside Jeff Faust and Sandra Irwin, my co-workers. We cover everything related to the business and politics of space. Again, it's a really exciting time. I enjoy it a lot. And I think if you want to keep up on all the things happening in Space News, that's where to go. I agree. It's the essential read. So I'm always there. I know every show has got like
Starting point is 00:31:45 five Space News links in the show notes. So I'm sure that if anyone listening has not been to spacenews.com yet, I don't actually know what they've been doing listening to the show for however long. But if not, you got to go read it there. Thank you so much, Caleb, for coming on. And I want to hold you up from all the news that is happening out there. So thanks. And I hope to talk to you again soon. Certainly appreciate it. That's all we got for you this week. Thank you so much again, Caleb, for coming on the show. And thanks to all of you out there supporting Managing Cutoff on Patreon, patreon.com slash Miko. If you've got any thoughts on the show, always love hearing them. Email me anthony at managingcutoff.com or on Twitter at wehavemiko. Thank you so much for
Starting point is 00:32:23 listening, and I will talk to you again next week.

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