Maintenance Phase - Elizabeth Taylor's "Elizabeth Takes Off"
Episode Date: February 14, 2023History should make you feel weird and so, apparently, should diet books. Support us:Hear bonus episodes on PatreonDonate on PayPalGet Maintenance Phase T-shirts, stickers and moreBuy Aubrey's ne...w bookListen to Mike's new podcastLinks!Elizabeth Takes OffElizabeth: The Life of Elizabeth TaylorElizabeth Taylor: Diet Tips on How to Become a Size 6Just Look at Her NowElizabeth Taylor: Born to the PurpleElizabeth Taylor: The Lost Interview Elizabeth Taylor’s Glorious ExcessElizabeth Taylor’s Astonishing Health HistoryElizabeth Taylor’s Cook Not To BlameSupport the show
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["Fuck You!" by The F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F F to talk in a sustained way. I know. Talking, I like it.
It's good comma actually.
Okay, I've had like a month to think about this fucking tagline
and I like to come up with this still bad.
Welcome to maintenance phase,
the podcast that has been married nine times,
but continues to hope.
Is that a thing that I know about her
and I think of someone else?
Eight times, you were so close.
Eight times to seven dudes. Oh really, one of them was a repeat offender? I think of someone else. Eight times, you were so close. Eight times to seven dudes.
Oh, really?
One of them was a repeat offender?
I didn't know that.
Yeah, Richard Burton.
It's the big one for her.
You know, it's the big one.
I'm Michael Hobbs.
I am Aubrey Gordon.
If you would like to support the show,
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You can also subscribe on Apple Podcast.
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Same stuff.
And Michael.
And Aubrey.
Today, we're talking about a diet book written by none other than Elizabeth Taylor.
We're doing it. We're doing all the Hollywood royalty.
We've done Gwyneth Paltrow. We've done Elizabeth Taylor. We're doing it. We're doing all the Hollywood royalty. We've done Gwyneth Paltrow.
We've done Elizabeth Taylor.
We've done Ed McMahon.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, Michael, tell me what you know about Elizabeth Taylor.
It sounds like you know, generally,
that she was married a lot.
What else you know about Elizabeth Taylor?
Literally an actress who was married a lot.
Great.
We've reached the limits of my knowledge.
I should also say before we sort of dig in all the way
that this episode includes some really gnarly abuse stuff
and some extra gnarly anti-fatness in it.
So like really, really take care.
It's an extra gnarly one.
It's worth noting that Elizabeth Taylor
is like an incredibly complicated person.
She received incredible scrutiny for her appearance in the press from her loved ones
across the board, and she was also repeatedly referred to as the most beautiful woman in the world.
So in other words, a famous woman. She was famous and had the audacity not to be a man.
This is what I wanted and a living nightmare. She's also a white person who played Cleopatra
in one of the most famous and foundational cases
of whitewashing African history, right?
Like off the charts, she's a Democrat,
a lifelong Democrat who married a Republican elected official
and started hosting fundraisers for Republicans
on the eve of Reaganism.
Ooh.
She was disabled.
She had scoliosis and was scapegoated
in the press constantly for these sort of costly production
shutdowns.
OK.
Some of which are the result of her being sort of a frivolous
rich lady and being like, I wanted to go to Greece this weekend
or whatever.
Yeah.
And some of which are like,
I'm in the hospital for complications from my disability,
or I'm really sick.
And that all got read through the lens of like,
she's wasting everybody's time, right?
This is the beginning of like the difficult woman
industrial complex.
There is a lot of difficult women sort of foundational
material shown up here for sure.
Right.
But it's also worth noting that she was well ahead of most other folks, an outspoken
advocate for people with HIV and AIDS in the 1980s.
Oh, interesting.
When the CDC and the Reagan administration were still sort of studiously ignoring the
AIDS epidemic, and she established her own foundation to reduce stigma around HIV and AIDS.
This is back when it was controversial to be like, wow, this lady's sticking up for people
who are dying. What a weird thing for someone to do. Courageous, radical, dangerous question mark.
Yeah. Should we dig in on some, like, a little touch of 101 Elizabeth Taylor bio stuff?
I like that you've, you've made me feel weird about this person already.
We got to know what the weird tension is because the tension, Michael, I don't want to spoil it,
except I'm on a spoil it. The tension is only going to get tensor and weirder.
Oh, good. Okay.
So Elizabeth Taylor was born in February 1932 to American parents in London. Her father owned and operated an art gallery
and her mother had acted on Broadway when she was younger and really felt like she sort of missed
an opportunity for herself to continue her career path in acting. So we've got a nepo baby on
our hands. We've nepo baby.
Part of the current discourse. Elizabeth Taylor moved with her family straight to California
at age seven. And her mother immediately started preparing her for what she saw as sort
of Elizabeth's inevitable child startup. She was just like, oh, wow. I have this kid.
She is unbelievably strikingly beautiful,
even as a child.
I'm gonna make the most of it.
So Elizabeth was expected to be
immaculately dressed all the time.
In case they ran into any power players
when they were out and about in LA.
Oh God.
But also because,
and her mom was very explicit with her about this,
that when she was a star,
this would be expected of her.
You have to look impeccable all the time.
Holy shit.
So this was like pre-ordained?
Yes.
Age 7 is when these conversations are happening.
She and her mom spent hours every day working on her look, her manners, her posing, in grade
school.
Her mom talked about Elizabeth having a job,
and her job was to become a star.
Oh my God, this is like bumming me out so much.
Oh, Michael, it's gonna get bleaker before it gets better.
I just consider fame to be like a form of abuse.
It's offering somebody for this.
Like you're gonna be scrutinized for your looks,
your whole life is just like, ooh.
You and I talk about being uncomfortable
with our level of whatever.
I have never been an Elizabeth Taylor.
I will never be an Elizabeth Taylor.
This is like all we talk about, Aubrey.
Get on with your cord.
And we're like, here's what I'm feeling
weird about this week.
Here's everything I'm saying no to
because it makes me uncomfortable.
Yeah, totally weird.
Yeah.
So her mother spoke about Elizabeth's quote unquote responsibility to the family as a
breadwinner before she turned 10.
Oh my God.
She is very young and is being sort of piled on with all of these adult responsibilities. She's taught specific responses to how to receive a compliment.
She's supposed to curtsy, look down and dimmurely think the person while she's not making eye contact with them.
Ooh, a lot to unpack there.
How much time do we have?
I'm coming.
Yay.
What are we?
How long is the episode gonna be? Not only that, but her mother expected her to practice
her facial expressions for that process
and responses to compliments in front of a mirror.
Oh my God.
So Elizabeth did that every day.
Well, she even acting at this point.
Like, what were people complimenting her on?
Or was this just prep?
I think this was mostly prep.
And also, there is,
look, in a lot of Elizabeth Taylor biographies,
there are a bunch of deeply fucking uncomfortable descriptions
where they're like,
she was a strikingly beautiful eight year old,
and you're like, nope.
Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.
Yeah.
This is maybe not the time to mention this,
but can I look up a photo of her?
When she's a child? Sure, go for it!
Elizabeth Taylor Child?
Oh, you know what? The earliest one you can definitely find is age 12, she was in National Velvet.
That's her first name.
Felt fit.
Aw, she just looks like a nice girl.
She's got a dog in one of the photos,
like a little tiny like Wizard of Oz dog.
It is a really cute dog.
She looks so much older than 12.
Yeah, so this is also sort of part of her story a little bit.
In 1944 at age 12 is when she starred in National Velvet,
which was sort of the film that kickstarted her career.
It was a huge hit,
and it earned her a seven-year contract with MGM,
which was one of the most powerful studios at the time.
Oh, this is part of the studio system where it's like,
you just have to do what they tell you to do, basically.
Yeah, you sign on, and then your career is in their hands, period, right?
and then your career is in their hands, period, right? She at age 12 starts earning a weekly salary of $750.
In today's dollars, that's $12,700-ish.
A week?
A week.
So she's earning $660,000 a year, just about.
Wow.
And this is the point at which she becomes
the family breadwinner, sort of officially.
That's a lot of bread.
That's a lot of bread, and she is a middle schooler.
Yeah, Jesus Christ.
So she never really has a childhood to speak of.
And by the time she turns 14,
her mother starts dressing her in much tighter
and much more revealing clothes.
And starts setting up photo shoots
with a brief to the photographer to shoot.
This 14 year old, seductively and in a bathing suit.
Oh, so it's like as soon as she has boobs and hips,
they're already being weaponized, basically.
As soon as puberty hits, she is being portrayed
by her mother as a teenage seductress.
It is then unsurprising that her first marriage is at 18.
As we mentioned, she was married eight times
to seven different dudes.
As I read about these relationships,
many of them were profoundly and like explicitly abusive.
God.
Some of those husbands were physically abusive,
most were verbally abusive.
Almost all of them picked at her body.
Richard Burton's nickname for her was Tubby.
Fuck off.
Another one of her husbands,
there's this sort of anecdote in the book that she talks about where another one of her
husband's thought it would be funny to introduce her
to his friends for the first time under a different name.
And one of the friends says to her face,
oh my gosh, you look like a heavier Elizabeth Taylor.
Jesus Christ.
And then her husband starts laughing and says,
I told you you were getting fat and smacks her ass.
Bad news all the way down.
And on top of all that, she's like a working actor, right?
So agents and casting directors and everybody ever
is just like openly giving her notes on her body and her face
and how she should look different and all that kind of stuff.
I wanted to talk a little bit about her marriage
to her first husband who is Conrad Hilton Jr.
The heir to the Hilton fortune.
Oh, he's like a Hilton Hilton. This was sort of seen as a mutually beneficial
relationship at the time for sort of social climbing purposes. Elizabeth Taylor was a young
promising actor who didn't really have a foot in the door with high society. The Hilton family
at this point is frustrated with being seen as sort of quote unquote new money and they think a Hollywood marriage
Will help them be seen as more established big problems were rich, but people think we're the wrong kind of rich
Yeah, totally what a shame what you must have been through at the time that they get married
Elizabeth's mom is aware that Nikki Hilton was very big into drinking and gambling and it was much more important to her
was very big into drinking and gambling. And it was much more important to her
that the Hilton's had sort of the wealth and cashier
that she was after.
I love that this is the time in Hollywood
where it was like, yeah, the fact that he's like a huge piece of shit
is like, as not really that big of a deal.
But she gained two pounds over the course of the last year.
It's like the moral standard supplied to men or women
are just completely upside down.
So over time, and not even over that much time, like in a matter of months,
Nikki Hilton's like extremely dark side sort of starts to come out in their relationship,
he becomes increasingly just furious that he is being overshadowed by his young wife.
That fury starts to manifest more and more
as extraordinarily brutal physical abuse.
I'm not gonna tell the details of this one,
but at one point she becomes pregnant
and he becomes so abusive that he causes a miscarriage for her.
Oh, fuck.
And she leaves immediately. becomes so abusive that he causes a miscarriage for her. Oh, fuck.
And she leaves immediately.
She calls her mom and is like, I'm out of there,
I can't do it.
And her mom tells her that she should have tried harder
to stay together.
Jesus Christ.
It's grotesque.
As soon as they break up,
Nikki Hilton starts going to the press
and talking like horrific shit about her.
Oh, of course, this piece of shit move,
where you're trying to preempt any of the rumors,
and you're like, she was difficult and crazy.
She's gonna say stuff like, I used to hit her.
It's not even that, Mike.
At one point, she's photographed at different points
with different men, including, she has a number
of good friends throughout her life who with different men, including like she has a number of like good friends
throughout her life who are like gay men
who are sort of famously closeted gay men, right?
Oh, Rock Hudson.
That's like the only other thing I know about her.
Rock Hudson is a good friend of hers.
Montgomery Clifft is a good friend of hers.
Like there are a number of these, right?
So she's like photographed with men from time to time.
And Nikki Hilton goes to the press and says,
quote, every man should
have the chance to sleep with Elizabeth Taylor. And at this rate, every man will.
Oh, he says that publicly. He says it. He calls a reporter to tell a reporter this. And
then that reporter is like, good point and prince it. He's like, look, I have the most horrifying zinger you've ever heard.
Let me tell you the most fucked up shit anyone has ever said about their ex-wife.
Please put this in the newspaper.
The other relationship that seems worth naming here, if we're doing like a highlights reel,
is the one man that she married twice, Richard Burton.
Right.
Whom she met while she was filming Antony and Cleopatra. It made big headlines in part because both of them were married to other people at the time,
and they were filming a movie about a scandalous affair.
So they were like the OG, Brad, and Angelina.
This is their Mr. and Mrs. Smith.
Yes.
Absolutely.
I remember when that happened.
I was like, why is everybody speculating?
Because people are clearly just friends.
Michael Hobbs on the right side of history.
I know.
I really was not clued in today.
I was like, it's so mean.
Everybody should stop talking about this.
It's extremely interactive people sending time together.
Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor
have a famously incredibly chaotic relationship.
He repeatedly told her, quote,
you're much too fat love,
but you do have a pretty little face.
That's like a neg.
He's like negging her.
He's mystery the pickup artist.
He's got a top hat.
The criticism about her appearance
is not just coming from her husbands and her relationships.
It also shows up in the press a lot and much earlier
in her career than I would have anticipated. One critic famously described Elizabeth Taylor
in Cleopatra as, quote, overweight, overpaid, and under-talented. That's the cultural script
about Elizabeth Taylor at this point is like, she's unbelievably beautiful
and also what a piece of shit.
I'm looking at photos of this on Google now
and like, she has like an hourglass figure.
She's like extremely conventionally attractive.
Right.
Her eyeshadow is deranged,
but I don't think that's her fault.
The makeup is bananas.
The hair trying to give a white lady black hair
is a venture all its own.
I have other comments.
So many.
So many.
We're going to talk about her marriage to US Senator John Warner.
They got married in 1976.
She was 45.
She is getting more and more and more scrutiny for her body because she is back in the public eye in a new way
and she's in her mid-40s
and she looks like a woman in her mid-40s.
She's like put on a little bit of weight,
she looks a little bit older.
After her marriage to the senator,
she checks herself into Betty Ford
for a dependency on pain pills,
which is where she meets her final husband, Larry Fortensky.
Later in her life is actually where the bulk of her wealth
comes from.
That's when she starts endorsing products,
including first a perfume called Passion.
Okay.
And then, white diamonds.
White diamonds.
She was just this lady on TV talking about perfumes.
That's like, when I was a kid,
that's like all I knew of her.
Same here.
Yeah.
Okay, are you ready to watch White Diamonds?
Wait, really?
I set you the link.
Dude, yes, yes, yes.
Oh, the editing, it's like MTV crib.
Okay.
It's like, point of music. It's alright.
Not so fast.
Alright.
He's always brought me luck.
Oh, man.
White diamonds.
Fade treating fragrance from Elizabeth Taylor.
These have always brought me luck.
Oh my God, I just got,
what's like the good version of a heart attack?
I just got something that is like so much nostalgia.
Isn't it wild?
I have seen this ad like 400 times
and have not thought about it since.
It sort of like activated the same part of my brain
as like the Vianetta commercial.
JAA, we're all eating Vianetta.
Yes.
Yes.
I am like watching this at I am homesick with like the chicken pox.
Yeah.
And like elementary school and I'm watching TV at like 11 a.m.
Yeah.
Where they have the weirdest shows and the weirdest ads.
And like this is just always on.
That is my entry point.
It like sort of chronologically in my life,
to Elizabeth Taylor's stuff, right?
Is seeing her as this like sort of coded as glamorous lady
in 80s terms, which means a wild look.
And also as a young person,
you never see like quote unquote glamorous people
who are older than like 23.
Certainly not in the 80s.
You're like, what is this woman in like a normal age
being on television?
Yeah.
And during this sort of cash grab era,
during this extremely profitable era for Elizabeth Taylor
is when she writes her diet book, Elizabeth Takes Off.
We've circled back to the title of the show.
This is where we would put our first ad break
if we were like an intro. And then sell some mattresses. So I just sent you the cover of the show. This is where we would put our first ad break if we were like an intro shot.
And then sell some mattresses.
So I just sent you the cover of Elizabeth Takes Off.
I would love it if you would describe it.
Ooh.
Wow.
This photo's amazing.
Tell me what you are seeing.
Okay, this is like a super glamour shot.
It looks like a marketing image for actual,
for the place glamour shots, for the service of glamour shot. It looks like a marketing image for actual, for the place glamour shots, for
the service of glamour shots. It's the like, it's the like target photo studio, like poster
that they have outside. Yes. And yeah, since Elizabeth takes off on weight gain weight loss,
self image and self esteem by Elizabeth Taylor. And the whole thing is just like super,
like old money glamour lady.
She has like pearl earrings,
the size of like golf balls.
And then her makeup, she's like airbrushed,
but like in the pre-photo shop era.
So she just looks like sort of blurry and like washed out.
She really does.
She looks gorgeous in an extremely 80s way.
Those giant pearl earrings are surrounded
by a huge gold braid.
That big clip on earring kind of look from the 80s.
She's wearing this bubble gum pink lipstick.
She's got this sweetheart, sweetheart neckline dress
that is white.
She looks like resplendent.
And then the background looks like a driver's license background.
It's just like flat blue in a way that's really funny to me.
So she looks like amazing on this.
And it's totally like, buy this book from a movie star.
So this is like end of career.
This is like her looking back on her career
and her legacy. This is not a mid-career book. This is a retrospective. Right. The author here is
listed as Elizabeth Taylor, but this is a time when her top priorities are like making money and
doing her advocacy work. Right. So it is Ghost Written. It was written by a writer named Jane
Skowl. Okay.
According to the Washington Post, this is as reported by the Washington Post.
Scovall also Ghost Written for Ginger Rogers, Tim Conway, and Kitty DuCocas, among others.
Dude, I, when I was a kid and dreaming about becoming a writer, I dreamed of two things.
One, becoming a Ghost Writer for celebrity memoirs, and two, writing novelizations of movies.
Those were like my peak pinnacle goals as a writer.
My, when I was a kid and I dreamed of being a writer,
I dreamed of being a speech writer.
Oh yeah.
And then I realized that's like mostly not a job
and when it is, you have to be like,
like on a presidential campaign
or some like absolutely holaceous scenario
that I absolutely don't ever wanna be part of.
And I was like, ugh.
I used to do like speech writing background stuff
for like various UN people.
And there would be times when like they would be having a debate
where they were like fighting each other about something
and I would be writing both of their speeches.
I'm like, what my colleague doesn't understand,
like they're both feeding me lines.
It's like your version of like a stuffed animal tea party.
Yeah.
Just like acting out like the Lincoln Douglas debates.
Yeah.
So when Elizabeth Taylor releases this book,
her press, like the quotes that she gives to the press
around this book are her press, like the quotes that she gives to the press around this book
are so fucking rough.
It is a real indication of how much shit people talked about her body throughout her career
and also how effectively that trained her at talking about other people's bodies in
those same terms too. Right.
So, in the Washington Post's piece, they say, quote, she doesn't buy the theory that as people
age, a bit more weight fills out their faces attractively.
Oh.
I think that's bunk.
I think that's a cop out is what she says about that.
And she talks throughout this book almost constantly about copouts. She imagines
these whole narratives that people who are fatter than her have about their bodies, and
she summarily dismisses all of them as excuses or copouts.
It's like a portrait of how bias gets reproduced, right?
Because it's not only adopted by the majority,
it's also adopted by minorities themselves.
So you have her internalizing all this anti-fat shit,
like the terrible treatment that she's gotten,
she's like, yes, you're correct about that.
You were right to criticize me for my looks,
and now she's criticizing other people.
It's really bleak.
I think it's also to your point in addition
to showing how bias operates.
It also shows how abuse operates,
which is that we experience abuse and take it on,
and that causes a number of really hard
and horrific outcomes in our lives.
And one of those hard and horrific outcomes
is that it trains us to be abusive toward other people.
Ultimately, it's like, well, if I hadn't been so fat, they wouldn't have said those horrible things to me.
Right, absolutely.
That's just another way of defending that treatment, which is totally indefensible.
That is essentially the thesis of this book.
Oh, God!
Jesus Christ.
The hard thing is, like, I hear what you're saying about, like,
part of how bias operates is that people on the downside of power take it in, too.
Elizabeth Taylor is not at any point in this book someone that I would consider to be a fat person.
All of the photos that I have seen of her and all of the everything.
She is not on the downside of power, but she is in an industry where her body and sort of scrutiny of her body
is going to happen at a fever pitch and that will make her feel like she is
on the downside of power.
Right.
Even though she remains this like famously beautiful,
famously wealthy, famously everything woman, right?
It is kind of fascinating, right?
Because by Hollywood standards, I guess she is fat,
but by literally any other standard.
Yeah, she isn't.
It's really fucking weird and it mirrors,
I've had at this point, a number of conversations with people who are
also, who are like actors now, who will sort of tow a really careful line in their conversations
with me and be like, I understand that I'm not a fat person.
And I also understand that I'm in an industry where I'm being treated like a fat person. It is kind of fascinating to me that like you've become a person whose celebrities come to when
they feel weird about their bodies. Not that many, but like there have been a handful and I'm like
this is a part of this work that I did not anticipate. I'm a famous person with feelings. Let me
let me call Aubrey. Yeah, total freaking to tell me. Totally.
So the book is divided into sections,
and we're just gonna take it section by section.
Section one is titled,
how it happened, a personal view.
The it happened here is how she gained weight.
This entire section that is roughly 100 pages of this book
is just a little bit of her life story,
mostly focused on her adult life,
through the lens of, here's how I allowed it to happen
that at one point I was better than at another point.
This is what we were talking about last episode
about how fat people are called upon
to explain the origin stories of their bodies.
Yeah, explain it.
Write a book.
You're calling me fat,
and I'm gonna tell you how I got this way.
Yeah, totally.
And you're right.
You're right, but you shouldn't have said it.
Is sort of the vibe, right?
The narrative that she offers of her own body
feels really to me like an encapsulation
of very 80s thinking about bodies and diets, of that she offers of her own body feels really to me like an encapsulation of like very
80s sort of thinking about bodies and diets, which is that for her, her weight gain is
both a reflection of her own low self-worth and a cause of that low self-worth.
She says at one point, quote, in my late 40s, weight gain became a primary factor in my
feelings of self-worth.
And when I finally had the courage
to do something about those added pounds,
I was forced to acknowledge that loss of pride
played a large role in the reasons
I put on weight in the first place.
So she's sort of describing this like symbiotic relationship
that again feels not dissimilar
from like what you would have heard
at Weight Watchers meetings at this time.
So it's like basically everyone was terrible to me
and I started to internalize that criticism
where it became part of myself worth
and the solution to that is I should have lost weight.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
She also talks at this point about how this wasn't
just happening in the press,
it was also happening in her personal relationships.
And she brings this up in sort of a sunny, chirpy way as part of the narrative.
And I don't find it sunny or chirpy. I'm sending you a quote about her friends.
She says,
Recently, some of my friends have told me how flabbergasted they were by the amount of food I could pack away.
The awful part is, I wasn't even aware of some of my gastronomic feats.
It makes me wonder if it might motivate fatties to die it, if someone filmed every meal and
snack they ate in a day.
The subject could then watch the movie and see first-hand just how much she was consuming.
Ah, so what we're learning here is that Brian Wonsink plagiarized this.
By trying to install cameras and cafeterias and show you how that would become.
I forgot about that particular wrinkle in the Brian Wonsink legacy.
Thank you for that reminder.
Too bad this was published before Ted Talks. She could have given one with that little microphone.
But like, again, this is like one of sort of countless quotes in this book where you're like,
oh my God, your friends are horrific.
Why are your friends telling you as soon as you become thin again?
That they're like, man, you were really packing it in.
It was gross, right?
Is essentially like what this quote is.
Does she use the term fatties throughout the book?
A lot.
She uses it a lot.
Oh, she also sort of talks about how this behavior shows up Fatty's? Throughout the book? A lot. She uses it a lot. Oh.
She also sort of talks about how this behavior shows up in the entertainment industry.
There are a couple of longer quotes in this episode.
This is one of them, but I think it's worth, I'm like, I don't actually want to paraphrase
it because the way she writes it is so, it would sound like I was exaggerating.
Okay.
So, I just sent it to you.
She says, not so long ago, I was at a benefit with Joan Rivers,
who had been foremost among the entertainers
who made my way the butt of their jokes.
When I was ready to leave, she took my hand,
saying, Elizabeth, you look wonderful.
I just want you to think about why I said those things
when you were heavy.
Okay, all certainly do that, I answered,
and tried to get away.
She held onto my hand and repeated,
no, no, I mean it.
I want you to really think about why I did it.
I didn't have to think about it. I knew what she was implying.
She was taking credit for my losing weight.
But I don't think you can justify cruelty and turn it around into a benediction.
Jokes were made about my weight because they got laughs, period.
Joan Rivers, in this particular anecdote, popping out of a fucking trash can to be like,
you're welcome for making fun of you because now you're thin.
Yeah, like making fun of you to a bunch of other people, like making fun of you publicly
to like humiliate you.
Yeah.
You're welcome, Bestie.
Yeah, it's terrible.
There is also a moment at the time that she is at her fattest.
She gets a chicken bone stuck in her throat
and has to be rushed to the hospital
to have it surgically removed.
Wow.
This story starts to make the rounds
and it makes an appearance on Saturday Night Live.
Of course.
And we're gonna watch a little clip of that.
Oh, fucking hell, you're gonna make me watch
fucking, so I'm in a live.
Can I tell you this episode, guest, the Grateful Dead?
And what?
That's how 70's it is. They're playing Casey Jones.
I didn't even know that was like a thing. I didn't know they were famous enough to be on SNL.
Oh, for sure. For sure, for sure.
Buck Henry was the fucking host?
It's wild.
This cheap politician, John Warner's wife,
is none other than perhaps the greatest actress
that's ever lived, and whose face is set the standard
for screen beauty for so many years.
Of course, I'm talking about Elizabeth Taylor.
Oh, God.
Liz, welcome to celebrity corner.
LAUGHTER
It's John Pallucci.
Thanks, Bill. It's so nice to be here.
Liz, how does it feel to be?
This is almost too soon to tell Senator Lackworn or anyway.
Very exciting, Bill, but I'm looking forward
to becoming a Washington Postist.
Liz, tell me this.
We heard that you promised if John won the election
that you would go on a diet from your present weight
of 167 pounds down to your butterfield eight weight
of 120, is that true?
That's right.
I'm gonna start on a strict diet, nothing but chicken.
Oh.
That sounds great, Liz.
But to me, I don't care how much you weigh.
Just so your cheeks don't puff up over those beautiful,
violent eyes that I've been in love with since
National Velvet.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, 12.
LAUGHTER
LAUGHTER
LAUGHTER
Thank you.
Thank you, man.
That's more than...
Can we be done now?
We're done.
Oh.
That was excursiating.
Right. It's not even really a joke.
No, there's not a joke.
That's what my notes say.
She's being played by a man.
Yep.
Any's fat.
The joke is that she jokes on a chicken bone, I guess,
but that's not even a joke.
It's just a thing that happened.
Yeah.
You're just acting out like a factual thing,
but you're laughing at it.
It's not funny.
There's not a set up.
There's not a punchline.
There's nothing that is recognizable as a joke structure.
That's really bad.
There's not even enough plot to recognize it
as any kind of sketch structure, right?
It's also fucked up because you know she must have known
when she was choking on the chicken bone
that like this would be a joke.
I'm sure she did.
Right, there's like this whole circular thing
of like anything humiliating that happens to you.
You're like, oh great, this is gonna be a story and like because there's been decades of
speculation about my weight and like I now have a sort of injury that is like in some way adjacent to food.
Yeah, like oh good, months of discourse.
Yeah, about this like really awful thing that's happening to me.
So in the book she writes quote,
about this like really awful thing that's happening to me. So in the book she writes, quote,
naturally I've been asked if I saw the Saturday Night Live
television skit that featured a coal-eyed John Balushi
dressed in drag doing a takeoff on the accident.
Yes, I saw it and I laughed.
He was very funny.
Oh.
How ironic and sad that that gifted young man satirized my excesses and then died
of his own. Oh my god. She's just like reproducing the worst parts of that fucking sketch.
She's writing this after being in treatment for her own addictions and then is like, I'm
a dunk on this guy for doing the same thing. Like it's just like, wow, you really had the upper hand there
and you just like happily threw it away.
You keep showing me media and then I feel bad for her
and then you read me quotes from the book
and I stopped feeling bad for her.
It's a real roller coaster.
The whole book is a real roller coaster.
Like these terrible things happened,
but it also made you like kind of a terrible person.
Like I don't know what to do with that.
She is all over the place.
And like I say, like a really complicated character heading in a bunch of different directions.
She in this section often describes sort of her own body
in the same breath that she describes her theory of fat people's failings.
Okay. So I'm gonna send you a little quote.
It says, for a long time, I closed my eyes and saw what I wanted to see.
I fooled myself by looking in my body with what I call obese eyes.
I truly think that some fat people perceive themselves with the same distorted image as anorexia. No matter how skeletal the latter see themselves as fat, I admit I could never totally deceive myself.
Oh, so wait, she's saying like, I thought I was thin, but I was actually fat, and that's bad,
is that what she's saying? Right, and then she's comparing that to her own definition of anorexia,
which I think she's just talking about body dysmorphia, which own definition of anorexia, which I think she's just talking about body this morpheo,
which is different than anorexia.
But like, yeah, she's essentially just like,
I thought I was thin even though I was so fat.
That's how fat people think about themselves.
And I'm like, no, that was you.
Yeah, you're literally not fat.
That's why you didn't think of yourself as fat.
But also like this whole
god, this whole thing is so dark. Totally. How dare I felt okay about my body. And
also like she is then seamlessly segueing into a proposal of like a world view.
That's just like, right. Here's what I did. And that's the real problem with fat
people. And you're like, wait a minute, wait a minute, you made like seven leaps, go back.
She's generalizing to other fat people
from her own experience, which is that of like a movie star.
Yes, totally.
It's like kind of by definition,
there's only like 20 of those in the country at this time.
So like most people are not being brutally scrutinized
by the media because most people are not movie stars.
Just like you, I am no longer haunted by my images in national tabloids.
The time I was on the cover of a magazine.
Elizabeth.
Yeah.
So that's section one is essentially like she is both sort of like defending her body
and telling all of these absolute horror stories about how she's been treated.
And then again, in the same breath, is turning it around and going.
And here's how you should think about fat people.
God, we're only a quarter of the way through this book.
Jesus Christ, this is abysmal.
It's so weird.
This is so bleak, dude.
This goes into the same category as many episodes
that you and I have tried, where I was like,
well, just do a diet book,
and it'll be Elizabeth Taylor's diet book,
and it'll be fun and frivolous and busy and fluffy
and it's not.
Remember how I was gonna do the Minnesota Starvation Experiment
and then I was like, Aubrey, I can't.
Yeah, this is worse.
This is so bad.
Okay, we're now heading into section two,
which is called Gearing Up for Taking Off,
some favorite tips.
Okay, now we're into weight loss stuff.
Okay, now this feels like it could be slightly happier.
Hmm, have you listened to our show?
Okay, fair.
This is where she talks less about herself
and more about other people
and more about the mechanics of how it's done, right?
Okay.
One of her diet tips is that you should make bribes.
What?
Incentivizing weight loss.
This is a thing that comes up for a lot of dieters.
I will say, as a kid, I heard from a number of adults that I should get myself close
that I really wanted that were like a size too small, and that would be like my motivation.
Oh, we're like, you put a photo of yourself on the fridge, being thinner, and then you
like, won't eat the yogurt or whatever.
Well, that is also one of her tips.
She actually suggests at one point, she's like,
I did that for me.
I put my photo of my fatus self up on the fridge.
And then she's like, for you, I'd suggest using
a photo of yourself and not me.
And I'm like, Elizabeth, what's gonna use a photo of you?
That'd be so weird to have a photo
of Elizabeth Taylor on your fridge.
So she talks about the importance of quote unquote,
making bribes.
And then she tells this horrifically
gremlin anecdote that she frames up as like,
I did a good deed.
Let me tell you about a young woman I met a couple years ago.
She was one of the most appealing girls I've ever known
with fair hair, blue eyed good looks.
She was bright, vibrant, intelligent.
She was also obese.
She told me she was getting married in, and intelligent. She was also obese. She told me
she was getting married in six months and was trying to lose weight.
Although I normally don't go around poking my nose into other people's business, there
are, as you know by now, occasions where I can't keep from interfering. On impulse, I handed
this girl a memographed copy of my diet and said, follow this, and if you lose 50 pounds,
I'll buy your wedding dress. You should have seen the expression on her face.
She took the diet home with her, and for a few weeks, she was afraid to begin.
She had been trying to slim down since she was a child.
Her parents had taken her to nutritionists and clinics and special summer camps until
she just couldn't bear to even hear the word diet.
She might never have started mine, had her fiance not stepped in.
He told her at least to give it a try. She did. Later,
she told me it was the first time in her life she had actually enjoyed eating while on a
weight reduction plan. By the time her wedding day rolled around, she lost 45 pounds. I still
bought the dress. I can't say that the promise of the dress alone did the trick, but rewards do help.
Oh, so it's somebody who's like, tried losing weight her whole life and like nothing has worked,
but here's my dumb celebrity plan.
And also like thank God, her husband told her to lose weight
before the wedding.
Right.
And also, a Elizabeth Taylor carrying around copies of her diet
for just such a moment.
On the off chance of fat person says anything in my presence.
I mean, can't have you try this piece of paper.
Right, and then it's like, I took care of a major wedding
expense for this person by essentially like
coercing them into dieting.
The other version of this story is like,
I either gave somebody
an eating disorder or made their existing eating disorder worse, you're welcome.
The best thing about being rich is lording money over people and making them do things
for you, like a train seal. It's wild to me that this is presented as like totally
unbidding good feedback where she was like, she really liked the diet. What did you think
she was eating? Yeah. What interests are, what did you think she was eating you? Yeah, what are your dresses are expensive?
Are you ready for another diet tip?
No, but okay.
Okay, well you're right not to be ready
because the next diet tip is use threats and shame.
Oh God, of course, of course.
She talks about how you also need to use negative incentives
like a husband who said this to his wife,
hold please for quote. I don't know.
Please for quote.
I always play the terrible husband on this show.
Darling, I know I can't keep nagging you about your eating habits, so I've decided this
will be my last word.
The day your weight goes higher than your IQ, I'm leaving.
Dude, the average IQ by definition is 100.
Yep, so unless your wife is like,
hella super genius, this is a fucked up thing.
Does, I mean, it's a fucked up thing to say regardless.
It's a fucked up thing to say regardless.
But still.
You're comparing two famously fraught garbage measures,
IQ and weight.
Right, I wanna do a eugenics twice in this conversation.
I wanna waive that's thinner than she is smart.
What?
What?
Usually that trade-off is not this explicit.
Ah!
She also talks about sort of another dieting tip of her as being that you should write down
everything you eat, but that you shouldn't be weird about it socially.
So you should be obsessive about writing it down.
But quote, when you're dieting, beat discrete.
You don't have to report to your acquaintances as though they were the commanding officers
of your great war against fat.
Even your most supportive friends can become bored.
Look, I don't disagree.
Right, like talking about diets is profoundly boring
most of the time, yes.
People who are on diets.
And also, she's fully like a being neurotic,
but don't let other people know
that you're being totally neurotic.
It's like the French women don't get fat thing
where it's like have a secret eating disorder.
Yeah.
Like don't tell people how much you are fixating
on your physical appearance and your diet.
She talks about this whole thing of being like,
don't let on.
And like, you know, your friends might get bored.
And then she immediately turns around and writes this.
Eventually I learned to take an ornary kind of pleasure
in denying myself in the midst of plenty.
If you're on a diet and doing well, rub it in.
Be outrageously virtuous and let your exaggerated behavior act as a shield.
Pass up the wrong foods as if they were stepping stones to hell
and let the no-thank-use fall like rain.
Ugh, so like ostentatiously.
Be like, no, I'm not having a brownie.
Yes, this could have been a quote
that we could have used in our last episode
where we talked about sort of like,
I don't like gaining weight,
but I don't treat fat people differently.
This feels like a great example of like,
be discreet about your diet,
but also make sure everyone else hurts
because you're doing so well.
Another hallmark of these like self-hub books
is just totally contradictory advice.
Just like back to back.
Her next diet tip is don't count calories.
Reasonable stuff.
Which sounds...
Queen, like a really good idea.
But then she explains her reasons why.
I sent you a quote.
Oh no.
I hate it when I say little dots in her chat.
I'm really glad that I've given you
some Pavlovian conditioning to be afraid of what I text,
or DM you.
Like, here comes the big fuck up.
She says,
it's too easy to become fixated on calories.
Too tempting to say to yourself,
I can have 20 potato chips for 230 calories
or six ounces of chicken for 310 calories.
And then go for the potato chips.
That's no way to lose weight.
If you must know the number of calories
you'll be getting on my diet,
it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,000 a day.
God, she's playing the hits, huh?
Don't count calories because you're not gonna go low enough.
Because you're gonna be hungry and grumpy all day.
On the maintenance plan, oh, she was so close,
the calories vary between 1,200 and 1umpy all day. On the maintenance plan, she was so close, the calories vary between
1200 and 1500 daily. So starvation diet and then the quote unquote maintenance phase in which you
regain all the weight. You're actually going to get fatter if you can't your calories.
Like, is you're going to go for the potato chips rather than the chicken?
Rose, this felt to me like a really good example
of why sort of anti-diet work is necessary,
but not sufficient, right?
If your analysis stops at diets are bad,
you can end up in weird places like this.
Diet's are bad because you actually don't diet well enough
when you're on them.
Right, right, right.
It feels to me related to sort of like how folks are currently invoking the phrase diet
culture to describe kind of everything.
Diet culture is a term that allows thin folks to recenter themselves in conversations
that are often about antifatonous or maybe about classism or maybe about racism or
maybe about like a bunch of different things, but we call it diet culture
so that it provides a softer entry point for folks.
But also, when you call it diet culture,
it doesn't require any further analysis of folks.
So again, in this case, right,
you've got Elizabeth Taylor ostensibly saying a good thing,
like don't count calories,
and then being like, the reason is this.
It's because you won't be essentially restrictive enough with yourself, right?
I'm glad that this book allowed you to say something
on the show that you've said to me
off the show numerous times.
Yeah, there we go.
The show.
I'm doing what it's supposed to do.
So there are more diet tips than that.
Those are some of those sort of high points,
but it's worth noting that this entire section
is powered by this explicit,
disdain and distrust for fat people.
She is constantly sort of batting off
these sort of imagined excuses, quote unquote,
that her readers might have for not losing weight.
She has a whole section where she sort of repeatedly brings up
like unless you're one of those rare people
with a bonafide medical condition,
please refrain from using your thyroid as an excuse.
Yeah, there's always a little section
where it's like, oh well, there's some people
that have an excuse, but then they never like lean into that.
Well, maybe it's just none of my fucking business
how big other people are.
Right, it's essentially paying lip service to exactly.
Some people might have a reason that I approve of
for being fat.
And I'm still gonna assume when I'm out and about
that every single fat person I see doesn't have an excuse.
Right, despite knowing nothing about them.
Absolutely, but like, yeah, I'm just gonna treat
everybody like shit anyway, just in case.
I wanted to close out this section
with another like absolute Gremlin anecdote.
Oh, God.
Some fat people will only pick at their food in public.
Whenever I went out with a certain friend of mine,
she would never touch the bread or rolls,
would order sensible entrees,
and would never ask for any dessert except fruit.
Meanwhile, she weighed over 200 pounds.
For a long time, I bought the
story that her metabolism was so screwed up she couldn't lose weight no matter what. Maybe
not, but one night after a dinner party at her house, I saw what she really ate. She
had cleared the dishes into the kitchen and after she'd been absent for a while, I decided
to go and see if I could help with anything. I found her standing over the sink scraping
plates. But before she threw away the scraps, she was shoving the choice pieces into her mouth.
I felt so sorry for her.
All the time she was blaming her metabolism,
she had to live with this monumental lust.
I ducked away before she saw me,
but I have never forgotten the sight
of her putting garbage into her mouth.
This is like a super fucked up thing
to put in your book, because that person must know
who they're talking about.
That's the unwritten part of this story is like she never saw me and I never said anything
about it to her.
I just wrote about it in my giant book that I did a full court press about.
Put it in my bestselling book.
The function of this anecdote is if you mistrust fat people and their narratives of their own
bodies, you're right.
There's probably something else going on.
Fat people are liars.
Is the moral of this story?
And like anyone who says like, I have a slow metabolism.
They're really just like binge eating every night.
Also like, it is very strange to me that she reconfigures like the meal they just ate
as garbage.
Right.
You were just eating that off of a plate and then when the plate gets taken into the kitchen,
you decide that this is now garbage.
What?
It's also so fucked up to act as if then
people don't have occasional binge eating behavior.
Right?
Like sometimes I will have like a box of Oreos
and the house and I'll eat the whole fucking box.
Right.
And it sort of is a reverse engineered justification
for the way that Elizabeth Taylor
describes herself treating fat people throughout this book.
And she's like, aha, I was right all along, right?
Genuinely, maybe this is a one off.
Genuinely, maybe this is something most people do
when they're clearing places go,
oh, there's still like little piece of steak
that looks pretty good on there.
Yoink, chunk, the inclusion of this passage
is only to be like, gotcha to all fat people
at the expense of her friend of years and years
by her own account.
Also not to like tell you how it feels
to read this as a fat person, but isn't this also the thing
that fat people are afraid of that like their thin friends
are fucking surveilling them all the time?
I don't think it's something that I'm afraid of.
I think it's something that I'm aware of
that it's happening all the time.
That is like literally happening.
It's really interesting to me.
There is this sort of whole line of rhetoric around
anti-fatness that usually comes from thin people
that's like no one's paying as much attention as you are.
And like you're probably just imagining their judgment.
And I'm like, you need to walk through this world
as a fat person because it's not imagined
when people just go, I've been noticing
that you're eating this garbage,
and maybe if you ate this other garbage
that I think is good, you would be a thin person like me.
People just say it outright to you.
This is why it feels like,
especially in fat activity spaces.
Fat people are oftentimes pretty slow to trust
thin people, which makes sense to me.
Right, so this is also an instruction manual
to anti-fat, and I sort of threw out this book.
She's telling these little parables
about, here's how you should treat fat people.
Here's what's really going on with them. And they are based on just like aggressively terrible behavior from her that
is also learned, right? Come from nowhere. It comes from her own trauma. And then she is unleashing
that trauma on the rest of the world, whatever fold. I'd love to read a memoir from her fat friend
being like my messy ass friendship with Elizabeth
Taylor.
Like I tried to be nice as lady, but like it was rough.
She made it hard sometimes.
Day 27 of knowing Elizabeth Taylor.
She's told me for the 4,000th time while she stares at me.
At least I'm not that fat.
I guess I like feeling I hang out with Liz.
So section 3 is called the Taylor-made diet,
which is a cute title.
Okay.
T-A-Y-L-O-R, like her last name, Taylor-made.
Fair enough Liz, we're giving this to you.
The diet itself is frankly very underwhelming.
Yeah.
It is straightforwardly a low fat, low calorie diet.
She advocates for like aerobic exercise, quote, unquote,
which she's just like try stretching.
And I'm like, is that aerobic, but okay?
Yeah. And her recipes. Oh no. Oh my god. her size quote unquote, which she's just like try stretching and I'm like, is that aerobic, but okay?
Yeah.
And her recipes.
Oh no.
Oh my god.
Now we come to our favorite thing to show.
Talk shit on recipes in diet books.
She has a dessert where she's like, you're gonna love this dessert and I'm gonna set it
to you.
It's the most 80s shit.
It's gonna have cocaine and shoulder pads.
Isn't it?
That would honestly be more interesting
than what it is.
It says chocolate fantasy for servings.
One envelope diatetic chocolate pudding mix,
half cup evaporated skim milk, evaporated skim milk.
One in one quarter cup black coffee, one egg yolk,
combine pudding mix, milk, and coffee in a saucepan and cook, stirring over
moderate heat until thickened.
Remove from heat, add egg yolks, stirring constantly.
Return to heat, pour into individual boat.
What?
So it's like a pudding.
It's Jello pudding plus black coffee in an egg yolk, and she's like, check out my amazing
diet recipes.
The only thing that's making this a quote unquote diet recipe is the quote unquote and she's like, check out my amazing diet recipes. Oh.
The only thing that's making this a,
quote unquote, diet recipe is the,
quote unquote, dietetic chocolate pudding mix,
which just means like 80s language for low fat.
Oh, yeah, this doesn't,
this is like the opposite of decadent.
Totally, it's like air and wishes
in the way that so much like 80s diet food is, right?
Or you're just like,
oh, it's like some kind of powder.
There's like a memory of the flavor of chocolate. Yeah. Oh, it's like some kind of powder. Right.
There's like a memory of the flavor of chocolate.
Right, right, right.
So then I'm gonna send you also
one of her suggested meal plans for the day.
Okay, diet day 10.
Breakfast, passion fruit,
and then one slice of dry toast.
Dry toast.
Yep.
Lunch, cold crab salad.
Affordable for the everyman. Snried toast. Yep. Lunch. Cold crab salad.
Affordable for the every man.
Snack cruditeis.
Oh, she's eating with Dr. Oz.
With dip.
Just dip.
Yep.
Dinner is grilled lamb chops with rayita sauce, pureed summer squash and brown rice.
Anytime during the day, a half a cup of skim milk.
That's your like snack. That's your treat
Oh man, I really hit the spot. Sorry breakfast is passion fruit lunch is crab and dinner is lamb chops
Yeah, she has like multiple recipes for lobster in this book nice and she keeps doing the like if I can do it anyone can do it
Yeah, they're like Elizabeth. This is like hard to enrich people food.
Yeah, and also someone else is making this for her too.
Yes.
I mean, she's not making her own grilled lamb chop side presumed.
She's not putting tweezers with gold leaf on top of her lamb chop.
Yeah.
There was a piece in the cut where someone talked about
trying the Elizabeth Taylor diet.
Okay.
At one point, this person tries out
one of the recipes in the diet and says,
quote, for dinner this evening,
I am supposed to cook a piece of steak
then sandwich it in peanut butter and bread.
Oh, what?
Oh.
Despite being so hungry, I could eat my hand.
I cannot handle this concoction.
I have three bites, then throw the rest out.
But at least I've also declared bankruptcy from buying all the lobster.
I bought a $40 rib eye and then slathered it with gif.
But then she goes on to say some really good things in the conclusion. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, have the time and resources to do something. Oh yeah, I'm a famous lady.
I'm a famous lady with a lot of money.
What if I spent some of that money on doing the thing
that seems like a problem to me?
Yeah.
But also at the same time in the back of my head,
I'm like, but you were also raising funds
for Republicans during the era
where they were shutting the shit down.
I don't know, man.
Yeah.
And then in the conclusion, she has one quote
that I found much more useful than almost
the entire rest of the book.
Ooh.
She says, in overcoming seemingly insurmountable obstacles, I learned that my oversized body
wasn't the biggest barrier to my self-esteem.
To regain a healthy sense of self-worth, I first had to break down old fears and doubts
and anxieties.
Only then was I able to reshape my image successfully.
It's funny how these diet books include some fairly prudent
and nice advice, but you just have to ignore the 97% of the book
that just totally negates them.
Right, where she's like, it turns out that in order to fix
myself a steam, I had to work on myself and fix myself a steam
not lose weight.
And I'm like, Elizabeth, why didn't you write that book?
And she also could have pushed some of this anger outward too.
And been like, you know what, it's really fucked up for the national choir
to put another photo of me in the magazine.
You'd be like, how dare this lady be fat?
Fuck you, I look great.
Right, there's no point in this book where she's like,
you know what a good answer would be here?
Is the same kind of approach that I'm taking
to my work around like HIV and AIDS,
which is like we need to reduce stigma.
We need to like lay off of people
who were like all too eager to pile onto, right?
Like there are places where she's taking that note
in her life and there are places where she is not
and her politics around like fatness and body size and weight loss are a place where she is not and her politics are on like fatness and body
size and weight loss are a place where she is not taking that note. I don't know if she would be
able to given the upbringing that she had. But I do think she could like let this opportunity to
just like write a book about how Craven fat people are. She could just like let that opportunity pass
her by. What you're saying is why couldn't Liz be Lizzo?
I think that's a fair question. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC