Raw Milk
00:00I'm so curious how you're going to make a real episode out of this.I know.We were talking yesterday and you were like, I don't know how this is an episode.And I was like, it's not just an episode.There's so much of it that I'm having a really hard time editing it down.I was at The Louvre with some people.today. And I was like, I have to leave early because I'm, I'm recording a podcast. They're like,what's it about? And I said, raw milk. And there's like this long sign so they sort of cocked their
00:37heads, like a golden retriever. They're like, you got to leave for that. You're doing, you're recordingfor like three hours on raw milk. I'm here instead of the Louvre tonight, Aubrey. You better make it.He's a cultured masculine man. All right. You're probably going to fact check this one.Oh, great. Welcome to Mainz phase, the podcast that must be heated to 145 degrees for 30.minutes. It's shorter than that now, but yeah. I'm Michael Hobbs. I'm Aubrey Gordon. If you would like tosupport the show, you can do that at patreon.com slash maintenance phase, or you can subscribe throughApple Podcast. It's the same audio content. Michael. Aubrey. I'm so amped. Just get into it. Just startwhatever you need to tell them. Go. So today we're talking about raw milk. I was going to ask you
01:25if you've tracked the raw milk debate at alland you were like,I don't think there's an episode there.So I think that might be my answerto how much you've tracked it.Because I mean, we talked about this with the honey,the like blue zones honey shit.That like because pasteurization,
01:42like I think people think it's like a science word,but all it means is like taking something up to a temperatureand then like cooling it down to kill the bacteria.It's not like a big scary like quote unquote processing thing.Like the ultra-processed foodswhatever it's like the most basic shit pasteurization is only heating a liquid to well below boilingtemperatures in order to kill germs that can make you very sickpasteurization today lasts for less than a minute you're raising the temperature of milk for a
02:12matter of seconds and it kills a ton of germs it kills e coli salmonella listeria diphtheria strepfucking tuberculosis is in raw milktuberculosis on top of killing all those germs it also extends shelf life pretty considerably it's veryfunny to classify this as this like unnatural process when it's like people like figure even if theydidn't know the science people like kind of figured this out like a long time ago right it's as unnaturalas me like applying heat to other foods to cook them i know and i also think a lot of people don't knowthat prior to pasteurization it was like a common step in recipes to be like you use in milk boil it firstmaybe. Oh, I didn't know that actually. People have been heating liquids to kill germs for like
03:00a thousand years before pastures. It really, like, really a long time. It's not like a Westernconcept. No, it's also not a Western concept. The like earliest record that I found was in the1100s in both China and Japan. Right. It's like saying like, uh, don't give in to like Westernbullshit. Eat like raw chicken breast. So on top of those existing pathogens in milk, we now havebird flu in milk oh god do we i didn't even know that yep when cows contract avian flu theirhighest concentrations of the virus are in their memories like the song from catsmemories sorry i'm cutting that i'm cutting that that's for you good thank you the good news is thatwe know that pasteurization is effective in killing h5n1 which is the avian flu virus as of last november avian flu was
03:55in 505 herds of dairy cows in 15 states.Okay.The USDA is no longer publicly reporting info on avian flu in the cows, so who thefuck knows where we're at now?I feel so good.I feel so safe.Sale of infected milk has also not been federally banned, like bird flu infected milk has notbeen federally banned because they are simply too busy firing everyone.
04:22I'm saving my we live in hells for later in the episode.but we truly do live in hell.When I started researching this,I really thought we were talking aboutsort of food poisoning level events.That's part of it,but there can also be long-termand permanent effects
04:38from these pathogens.According to the FDA,Listeria,which is one of the common pathogensin raw milk,Listeria in pregnant peoplecan lead to stillbirth and miscarriage.Yeah,
04:50Listeria is really, really rough stuff.E. coli can lead to H.E.which can cause kidney failure and tuberculosis.So there's a book that I read for this called Milk, exclamation point.That was a history of milk.That's such a good idea.Milt.Jeb.
05:10Kudos.In that book, the book was great.And I really loved reading this history of milk.And every time someone was like, what are you reading?I was like, this awesome history of milk.People would just like glaze over.So in this book, they write, quote,bovine tuberculosis, a disease found in cattle,
05:32is transmitted to humans through milk.It attacks the glands, intestines, and bones.Children are particularly susceptibleand are often kept in braces for yearsto keep their spines from becoming deformed.It's one of those destructive diseases of like humankind.And it's like such a miracle that it's not a live issue anymore.a huge advancement for humankind and yet we have all these grifters just being like was that
05:58really good let's bring it back i mean i think in this way a lot of the raw milk stuff kind of follows asimilar path to a lot of the anti-vax stuff which is just like i haven't personally seen a childright tuberculosis how bad can it be yeah yeah exactly the CDC has conducted a number of reviewson foodborne illness outbreaks linked to dairy products one of those covered a 13 year period thiswas from 1993 to 2006.They covered all 50 states.The studies authors concluded that raw milk was linked to 150 times more outbreaks thanpasteurized.
06:37No way.They also found that states where raw milk sale was legal had twice the incidence offoodborne illness outbreaks related to dairy versus states where raw milk is restricted orbanned.That's crazy.raw milk is not that big of a market.So if they're having these huge outbreaks,that means that it's a small number of people,
06:58but much more likely to get sick.That's exactly right.Milk consumption overall has been trending downward in the U.S.since like the 70s, right?People are no longer, I mean, you can sort of see it culturally, right?Like when we were kids,there would be like families where you'd be like,your drink to go with dinner is a glass of milk.
07:18Is that not true anymore?I don't think so.Is it all like monster energy now?Is that what the kids are drinking?It's all oat milk for these soy boys.So milk consumption overall has been trending downward for like 50 years, but raw milkconsumption appears to be on the rise.Right.
07:37According to analysis from the University of Delaware, consumer data showed a 21% increase inraw milk sales from 2023 to 2024.Since that's a relative statistic, I'm assuming that's from like a very low baseline.Yes, it is a low baseline.So an analysis of two pretty large scale and nationally representative FDA surveys in 2016 and 2019 gave us a pretty good window into what raw milk consumption looks like.4.4% of American adults said that they had consumed raw milk in the last year and 1% reported consuming raw milk weekly.Okay.That is like, thank God, like blessedly small.
08:21Totally. It's a small number of people, but then when you're like 150 times the likelihood of illness outbreak, like, woof.On the thing about like milk consumption falling in general, I do a thing where if I'm getting like a brownie or a cookie at like a cafe, I will order like a glass of milk with it because like a cookie and milk is hell of good.It used to be that that cafes and stuff would have like listed on the menu a glass of milk.But now they don't even know like what to charge me. Oftentimes they'll just like give me a glass of milk.Wokeness has gone too far, Michael.I love it.I'll take some free milk with my cookie.There are a lot of claims from Maha types currently about pasteurization, making milk less nutritious.
09:04But the science just doesn't bear that out.Also, how much nutrition do you fucking need from milk?Right.Surely losing out on some B12 is like worth it to not get sick.So a 2011 systematic review.looked at 40 studies, pasteurization decreased the amount of vitamins, E, C, and some B vitaminsand folate, and it increased the concentration of vitamin A. So on its face, it looks likeit's true that pasteurization can reduce the amount of some vitamins in milk. However,
09:46those vitamins exist in raw milk in very small quantities.Exactly.A couple of four examples.Pasteurization reduces the amount of vitamin C in milk, okay, but a full pint of raw milk contains0% of your vitamin C for the day.Oh, wow.Okay.Vitamin E, that same full pint of raw milk gets you to 3% of your recommended daily allowance.
10:09Pasteurized milk gets you to 2%.Also, you know this from the last episode that I meant vitamin E truther.You should be worrying less about vitamin E than you should have about fucking tuberculosis and likeListeria, like bugs in your juice.Maha types also argue that pasteurization kills off, like, enzymes and probiotics and all kindsof stuff.Overwhelmingly, those things are pathogens.The things that they're like, oh, no, it's killing this off.
10:33They're like, right, those are things that will make you sick.I'm so sorry.By probiotics, I mean tuberculosis.Diphtheria.Most things you eat don't have, like, live probiotics in them.Again, like, the probiotics thing is also kind of weird.It's like, you just don't need to think about this that much.And now, Michael, we're going to get in the way back machine, and we're going to talk through the history of the raw milk debate, particularly in the U.S.
10:58We're going to start with the birth of a man named Louis Pasteur.We sure are.Are we actually?We're going to talk about Pasteur for a minute.I'm kind of an expert because, like, I'm in France right now.So, like, I can just walk us through this part.Do you want me to, like, do this part?I'll just close my notes.
11:10You tell me about pasteurization and about Louis Pasteur.I speak three words of French.So, like, I'm actually qualified to do this.part. The thing is, that's actually why I'm here. The French government heard me pronouncePrit Amager. No. And they were like, that's so good. We're inviting you as a diplomatictrip to this country. You're such a fucking, you're such a little troll. Even for me, Istruggle to pronounce like English words. I get it. French is like a particularly bad area.So as you mentioned, Louis Pasteur was a 19th century scientist and chemistry professor from France. He was
11:47working at the dawn of germ theory kind of catching on in 1864 he took on a distiller as aclient this distiller makes beat alcohol alcohol out of beats okay the distiller wanted helpfiguring out why his alcohol kept turning sour so quickly oh pasteur helped identify theculprit which was lactic yeast and found that heating thebeet juice for just a few minutesbefore fermenting it killedthat yeast and allowed it to lastlonger. Beats by Dr. Pasteur.
12:26Boom.Oh, it'sso bad and I liked it so much.I thought you would. The sparkis still alive, by God.We've stillgot it.Pasteur figured out
12:40pasteurization and mostly appliedit to wine and beer. Alcoholone of the main use of pasteurization.early on. It was other scientists who figured out the application to milk. In 1882, a scientistnamed Robert Koch argued that while scientists had previously seen tuberculosis as resultingfrom just one germ, he identified three different tuberculosis germs. One was a rare formspread by birds. Tuberculosis. He found that there was another germ that spread TB from person toperson. That one was much more common. And there was a third kind that had not previously been
13:22identified, which was TB that was spread from cows to people through milk. It's not until aGerman chemist named Franz von Zaxlet came along. As the resident pronunciation expert,you need me to do it. Oh, thank you so much. We get a lot of feedback on how good my pronunciationsare, how like accurate and precise they are. So I can, I can do it.Perseverence.Franz von Saxlett was the first to suggest that pasteurization be used for milk.And that wasn't until 1886, which was 22 years after Pasteur applied it to alcohol, right?It took him a while to figure it out.
14:00Yeah.Totally.Also, part of the reason that we call it pasteurization is by all accounts, Louis Pasteur was like his own hype man.He's like, you know I'm the guy that did this, right?You should just like name it after me.Around the same time, pasteurization, because,a big public health issue, or not pasteurization per se, but milk sanitation, maybe, milksafety, becomes a big public health issue for a few reasons beyond just the TB of it all.
14:28One is that more people were moving to cities, and that meant that rather than maintainingsmall herds of dairy cows for small communities that were more geographically dispersed,there were more centralized dairies with larger herds producing larger amounts of milkand sometimes pooling milk from multiple sources.First of all, if you have a larger herd, there's more opportunities for those cows to allget TB.Right.And if you're pooling milk from multiple sources and one of those sources is contaminated and
15:01the others are not, you pool it all together and surprise, now it's all contaminated, right?Right.We saw this with mad cow as well.Absolutely.When you have like basically one big bucket full of juice.If, like, one cow in the juice bucket has a problem, then, like, the whole bucket has a problem.Yeah.It's not until the early 1900s that pasteurization really starts to catch on as a public policy.
15:24In 1907, a group of public health advocates started proposing a ban on selling raw milk in New York City.Oh, 1907.Oh, seven.People have, like, known this is bad for, like, more than 100 years.And we're just, like, doing it anyway.When you were like, is there an episode around this?And I was like, don't get me started on the 1907 campaign, Mike.Jesus Christ.
15:46The person leading the charge on that effort was a guy named Nathan Strauss.Is this someone who you have come across?No.So this guy was the owner of Macy's and the owner of Abraham and Strauss, which was one of the biggest department stores in New York City throughout much of the 20th century.Okay.Strauss became really involved in public life.he started doing a bunch of like philanthropic work.He worked as an elected official.
16:14One of Strauss's main concerns was the public health threat of raw milk.As early as 1858, the New York Times was reporting about the dangers of what theycalled swill milk.Okay.The city was going through wave after wave after wave of disease outbreaks at this time.Yellow fever, cholera, like,really gnarly shit.Also, they should leave raw milk legal, but make them call it swill milk.
16:44Dude, the reporting on swill milk from this era goes so fucking hard.I'm going to send you, this is from that 1858 piece.I'm sending you a quote.The health commissioners agreed with the mayor that the swill milk nuisance must be abated.I love swill milk nuisance.There's so many like metal turns of phrase in this.Early next week, they will convene the board.of Health, and unless all the signs fail, will operate with energy and firmness to purify the
17:13city of the stables where the disgusting stuff is manufactured, which, by a scandalous and lyingcourtesy, we have for years called pure Orange County Milk, and under stringent penalties,prohibit its use. If the Board of Health has any function, this certainly is one of them.That the business of making and selling swill milk is detrimental to the public health,no sane man, not even a city inspector, can any longer doubt.so fascinating they're selling it as pure orange county milk, which is like the same sort of thingthat they do now is like they rebrand this like basically like dirty milk. Like that's what weshould be calling it. Yeah. As something that is like sounds slightly virtuous and like clean and
17:53natural. This same piece goes on to accuse swill milk farmers of making quote,diseased libeles upon the fair name of cows. Well, they have tuberculosis. They also say thatthey'll have to, quote, show cause before the board why their work of death should not bediscontinued.More of this, yeah.Metal.Also, this is how I feel like genuinely, like, the FDA should talk about, like, people whosell raw milk.
18:20All of that is to say Strauss was not alone in his belief that raw milk was a culprit.This reporting happened 50 years before the New York campaign, right?So, like, it was a well-known and widely believed thing for decades that raw milk mighthave a role here, but it hadn't been regulated in any meaningful way, right? So it is almost likea cigarette allegory where it's like we knew this was bad, but we didn't do anything. We didlike weird half measures for ages. Yep. So in 1907, Strauss proposed an ordinance to require allmilk to either be pasteurized or what was called certified. Certified milk producers would justtest their herd way more frequently. They would be held.
19:06to hire food handling standards and they would submit their milk for certification from a commissionof physicians. So they're getting at it upstream. It's like make sure the milk is clean so you don'thave to pasteurize it. It's like the attempt. Right. But like even if you do that,you're like that none of that guarantees that there's not going to be E. coli in your milk. Again,it's like getting more at the TB of it all. Like what's even the downside of pasteurization at thispoint? Part of it honestly was consumer demand. People were like a pasteurized milk tastes,weird. It tastes cooked. And at that point, it was cooked, right? Like, we pasteurized milk now forway less time. Right, right. So people are like, dude, raw milk tastes dope. This stuff
19:47tastes bad. I don't want to drink the stuff that tastes bad. Yeah, I wonder if it tastedcloser to, like, how UHT milk tastes now. Because you can definitely, like, tell the difference.During the campaign, Strauss told a story, this has haunted me. Haunted. I am going to send youthis quote from milk exclamation point milk milk the island was being used as an orphanage and in orderto ensure the children had a steady supply of good clean fresh milk a dairy herd was maintained therebut between 1895 and 1897 while the 3,900 children were being fed supposedly safe rawmilk 1,509 of them died holy shit yeah dude 40% of the kids died yes in response to this frighteningstatistic, Strauss built a pasteurization plant on the island. He made no attempt to change the
20:38children's diet or improve the orphanage's hygiene just pasteurized the milk. The mortality rate declinedfrom 42% of the children to 28%. Honestly, 28% still sounds real bad. I thought they would have a waybetter happy ending to this. Right. It sounds way bad, but it is a 14% reduction. Which is like a lotof kids. Just from heating up the milk a little bit for a short period of time. Right.Despite that, like, really visceral, really heartbreaking example, the 1907 campaign failed, and so did a second attempt in 1909.The ban didn't pass until 1910.And again, it's not a full ban.It's just like, you can only sell it if it's certified, right?
21:24Yeah, yeah, yeah.In the meantime, New York got scooped by Chicago, who beat him to the punch and became the first city to ban raw milk.US. They did that in 1909, but Chicago's implementation was held up for more than five yearsfor the same reasons that the New York band didn't pass. It's also funny, like, thinking abouthow ambitious this policymaking was compared to so much policymaking now. I mean, you'rebasically requiring an entire sector to, like, add on this very expensive process. It's good.Like, I think much more of this kind of ambitious policymaking should take place. But nowit's like anything gets proposed that has any effect on businesses.
22:02It's like decades of litigation.It's like it's so hard to do this stuff now.It's really remarkable how how sort of gutsy the public policy work was.And also it did take like 50 years of knowing better.Yeah.And it took a super rich dude putting like all of his money and political capital into making this thing happen.That does feel more American now.Now it feels American.
22:29There we go.We got there.We got there.Did it, folks.The only good things that happened are because, like, rich people want them.So by 1917, which was just 10 years after Strauss's first campaign on raw milk,46 major U.S. cities required pasteurization.Nice.
22:47From there, those city ordinances became state laws.It was a dance sensation, sweeping the nation.And people get more accustomed to pasteurized milk and what it tastes like, right?by the 80s, 1980s, a commanding majority of states have either heavily restricted or outrightbanned sale of raw milk.So we're in like the modern era where like you basically can't get raw milk unless youlike go to great hassle.That's not true.
23:16It's not yet impossible because while states have taken action at the state level, the FDAhas not taken federal action.So it is still legal to sell raw milk across state lines.So even if you live in a state.where it's not legal, you could mail order raw milk.Like, I'm in Portland.I could drive across the river to Vancouver, Washington.Right.
23:39That's sort of what we're talking about at this point.So we're going to spend a little time now talking about like what got the FDA to finallytake action.And that's a story that starts in the 70s and 80s with one of the biggestdairies in California and in the country, Altadina.It's funny that the thing that got the.them to take action was not like the deaths of many children we'll get there don't worry it's weird if you'vebeen to a grocery store in california in the last like 50 years chances are they sold altadena dairy
24:11products altadina remains one of the biggest dairies in the country in the 70s and 80s they were alsoone of the largest dairy selling certified raw milk so they're doing the certification process rightand they're selling raw milk according to the la times altadina was subject todozens of recalls in the space of like 10 years.Wow.Not only for products that they sold retail,but also because they supplied raw milk to other producerswho then made things like Casafresco with it.
24:45And that would then get recalled.Right.In the case of that contaminated Casafresco,that caused the deaths of 22 Angelinos.Oh, wow.Through all of this, Altadina defended itself and deniedany responsibility in every step along the way, every case.Their owner was out in the press constantly referring to Altadena's raw milk as, quote,
25:11the cleanest milk in the world.By clean, we do not mean it doesn't kill kids.We mean something else.The owner is also alleging in the press that this is all a conspiracy against raw milk,which like, it kind of is.In that, like, there's a scientific consensus that your product is dangerous,then like, yeah, it kind of is like a flu shot is a conspiracy against the flu.Right. A bunch of parents got together just because we killed kids.
25:38I should also say this dude no longer owns Altadina. Altadina is still around. It's no longerowned by like total crackpots. So like if that's where you buy your milk, don't worry. It'snot going to like a raw milk truther anymore. And they no longer sell raw milk. They're not doing thatanymore. Right. So this all comes to a head in 1987 when two,Two Altadena court cases finally make kind of a meaningful dent in Altadina's reputationand in their ability to sort of do what they're going to do.One is the Paul Telford case.A 66-year-old man named Paul Telford was undergoing radiation for lung cancer and his doctors
26:20had him on a liquid diet.Altadina certified raw milk advertised itself as safe and clean.clean and pure, so he was drinking it regularly for the few weeks leading up to his death.Altadina argued in court that cancer killed him, but at the time of his death, he had infectionscaused by both salmonella and Listeria.Oh.Right.I don't see the idea that somebody like that needs, like, more vitamins, more than they need,
26:51like, milk free of pathogens is insane.Yes.Yeah.As a result, for the first time ever, Altadina faces.a court judgment finding them liable for Telford's death. Like, yay, they were found liable.Boo, they were ordered to pay 40 grand to Telford's family. You could just like kill five orsix people a year and just pay, pay that out and keep making your product. Right. It's such a smallamount. In today's dollars, that's around 113 grand. The other lawsuit that is sort of making
27:24its way through the courts around this time was filed as impact litigation by,a consumer watchdog group.That watchdog group is Public Citizen.Okay.Founded by Ralph Nader.Nader's like a really like influential guy on consumer safety stuff.So public citizen filed suit against Altadena.They co-filed with the Grey Panthers.
27:47Do you know about the Grey Panthers?It's like a seniors advocacy group and I fucking love the name.It makes me so happy.There was going to be like like a combination of like black Panthers and like a bunchof white people.so they were gray.It's like,you were just color mixing
28:02in your brain.The suit arguedthat Altadinawas making falseadvertising claims.They were marketingtheir raw milk productsas, quote,
28:12safe, healthy,wholesome and pureand as suitablefor vulnerablepopulations like babiesand sick people.That's insane.The court
28:21ultimately ruledin favor ofpublic citizenand the Grey Panthersand they findAltadina liable.Okay.That ruling
28:28prompted a federal court to sort of force the FDA's hand.We've talked about this in the past that the FDA can only regulate interstate commerce,things that happen within the state, fall at the state level.So back in 1973, the FDA had strongly considered a ruling that only pasteurized milkcould be shipped across state lines, which would have effectively banned interstate commerceof raw milk.They consider it again in 1985, but that's during the record.Reagan administration.
29:00And you know those fuckers aren't passing new regs, right?Yeah.The public citizen ruling addressed the FDA directly and said, basically, look, like, youcan do what you want, but, quote, there is no longer any question of the fact that raw milkis unsafe.Right.So they now have, like, judges saying publicly in high profile cases, like, come on, jokers,nothing about this is safe.
29:24This is literally like why we have a government so that you can't just like sell a dangerousproduct to people. Yes. And you can't just be like, I don't know, regulation just sort ofisn't our thing. It's literally like what you're trading off is like a slight inconvenienceto a corporation versus the deaths of children. Yes. Isn't even like hard tradeoff. Yeah. Followingthe FDA ban, following the sort of proliferation of state bans, people like pretty immediatelytry to find workarounds and they're successfully. Great. In doing so. Of course they are. How do Ikeep doing this thing that kills kids? One of those things, one of the more popular workarounds um is something called a milk club okay which is essentially like an underground railroad for
30:07listeria when you put it that way it's less appealing there are like a bunch of organizationsthat get really into milk clubs one of them a person named liz wrightzig who is one of the bigpopularizers of um milk clubs who also was a supporter of the rawMilk Freedom Riders.That's so good.I'm basically Rosa Parks.I want them to be able to kill kids.I'm essentially Gandhi.
30:39It's like staggering.Mother Jones describes the raw milk freedom writers as quote,a caravan of self-described frustrated mothers who wanted the repeal of federal raw milk laws.But it's like the same framing where it's like, oh, these are just like concerned mothers.It's Mumsnet, but for diphtheria.As opposed to, like, people who are just like anti-science freaks.In addition to milk clubs, there's a workaround called herd shares.So the idea is you're not buying raw milk.
31:09You're paying to lease a cow in a dairy herd.And then the dairy delivers raw milk as a byproduct of the cow you fake own.Oh, I love that.We're not buying it.We're like subscribed.That all brings us to our contemporary context.Nightmare.Interestingly, the current sort of landscape around raw milk laws is that, frankly, a lot of blue states allow the sale of raw milk.
31:40And a lot of red states ban it outright.Is it illegal in Oregon?You can buy raw milk, but only directly on the farm from a farmer with a herd of three cows or fewer.Oh, weird.Because, well, that's because of transmission of bovine tuberculosis.A smaller herd can't transmit it as much, right?That there's fewer opportunities for the disease spreading.Washington and California both have legal raw milk retail sale.
32:09You can go to the grocery store and buy raw milk in Washington and California.It's a gas station's next to the Kratom.I mean, honest to God.One-stop shop.It's so, whoa.Just like the sketchy things aisle.You know, Arawan sells it in California, because of course they do, and it's $13 bucks.The funny thing is, I think you could actually do a thing where you're like, look, you want raw milk, we don't want raw milk.
32:34Why don't we compromise?And we come up with some sort of process where, like, we'll bring it up to a certain temperature, but like it won't be brought up to boiling.How about that as like a compromise?And like, they just don't know what pasteurization is.And they're like, yeah, that sounds pretty reasonable.As long as you don't bring it up to boiling.It's like, yeah, actually, you know what?We can meet in the middle on this.
32:51You know, you treat it like it's a new discovery.We found a totally non-chemical way to sanitize milk.It's, like, perfectly natural.Totally.And actually, it dates back hundreds of years, so it's an ancestral way of keeping milk safe.That's good.You could use the, like, paleo bullshit language as a way to sell heating milk to kill germs.Just call it like a deliberate sunshine.
33:15Milk sunning.We're basically sunning the milk.The milk has gotten red light therapy.Just like the kind you put on your ball.The only, like, my only hopes for America now, because everything is just like on fire is just like, let's just, how can we lie to these people to get the outcomes that we want?Because they're so dumb, ultimately.In 2007, we were at a national high point of raw milk regulation.Just four states allowed for retail sale of raw milk in grocery stores.
33:46Say their names.Who was it?I don't remember.which were states. I didn't look into which one's in 2007.It does, by the way, it does seem like California has always been a state that doesn't ban it,which I'm like, fucking California, man.Gwyneth is too big to fail.In recent years, a number of states have repealed those bans and allowed for the sale of raw milk.
34:09Today, many coastal states allow retail sale of raw milk, California and Washington,a number of Western states, most of New England, all allow for retail sale of raw milk.Oh.So how, in less than 20 years, have we seen such a backlash to pasteurization and a rollback of those state bands?Right.The story of how we got here starts with the founding of the Weston A Price Foundation.I was going to ask about this if they're going to make a little cameo.Oh, it's not even a little cameo.
34:48It's like a protagonist.It's not protagonist.Anne.An antagonist.Is that a drag name?Has someone...So, Mike, what do you know about the Weston A. Price Foundation?Well, I know of them from a previous show research.
35:03Yes.It's like the dumbest, like, woo-woo aunt that you can possibly imagine, but also with like a tonof power.Woo-woo aunt is such a great description of the vibes at Weston A Price.There's like a patina, there's like a hippie aesthetic to some of the things that they produce.So here is, I'm going to send you their mission statement.Which I think I was going to send you in the seed oils episode so we're coming full circle.Because I know I have it in my notes.
35:32I'll just do it from memory.The foundation is dedicated to restoring nutrient dense foods to the human diet through education, research, and activism.It supports a number of movements that contribute to this objective, including accuratenutrition instruction, organic and biodynamic farming, pasture feeding of livestock, communitysupported farms, honest and informative labeling, prepared parenting, and nurturing therapies.Specific goals include establishment of universal access to clean, certified raw milk,and a ban on the use of soy formula for infants.It goes really nuts at the end there.
36:06They're also leaving out of this mission statement, like how much of their whole thing is aboutanimal fats and like fat is actually good for you and you should be eating meat fat and likeright keto kind of elements right so that mission statement has like a fair amount of curb appealif you're not a partisan or if you're like a little left leaning here's a little glimpse intothe issues currently listed on their website okay say no to sell towers in your neighborhoodOh, I love this.Okay.Bird flu in raw milk.
36:42Our founder reveals the lies underlying the latest attack on raw milk.Ooh, they're debunking you from an hour ago.Aubrey in Shambles.Weston A. Brace Foundation destroys Fadacton.They also have a section called Main Health Topics.Here are some of their main health topics.Cod liver oil are number one.Superfood.
37:09Okay.Why butter is better, nature's healthiest fat.Vaccinations.The most important decision parents will ever make.I wonder where they come down on that.I wonder what decision they think is best.And then the last one is just soy alert, exclamation.The funny thing is, they sound like some sort of like 1910's grandma.
37:29They're going to give you a Wothers and measles.The foundation is named for Weston A. Price.Do you know who Weston A. Price is?I did not.looked this up, but I forgot. He's a dentist from Cleveland who authored a book called Nutritionand Physical Degeneration that was published in 1939. Price traveled to more than a dozencountries to observe the health and diets of different societies. His argument was that the dentaland physical health of non-industrialized, excuse me, hiccup is your fucking beans for breakfast.
38:05I only have beans to blame. Yeah. They're.make me all that I am.His argument was thatthe health of non-industrialized communitieswas superior to the healthof industrialized communities.Laffably false, but okay.He said that the culprit for Americans' health woes
38:25was, quote,foods of modern commerce,what we now call processedand ultra-processed foods.Here is a synopsis of his conclusionsfrom a piece in the Atlantic.I apologize for making you read something from the Atlantic.I hate you.
38:44I know.I know you do.It says,In the conclusion of Price's book,he suggests a common theme in the diet he observed across the world.The healthy primitives ate plenty of meat,seafood, and fats.Americans would be wise to adapt their own diets accordingly,
39:00Price warned.Shortly before publishing the book,he'd gone to the Rutland State Fair in Vermontand had sat for an hourobserving the crowd three out of every four people he saw there he said showed signs of prenatalinjury due to poor maternal nutrition he's like eating a turkey leg at a fucking state fair justbeing like that guy's fucked up that guy's fucked up your mom fucked up just like judging people onno information that is absolutely what does it even mean why i included that part about the state
39:31fair allow me to introduce this part where he just sits at a state fair and goes that guy'sfucked up, huh?Yeah, look like it's overbite.That's because your mom didn't eat enough butter.So, like, of course, this is, like,just, like, an aggressively racist way of talking about shit.Right.He is also a dentist and not a physician,
39:49which is a different fucking thing.Also, I will say, like, when I worked in human rights,I did a lot of work on, like, developing countries,and oftentimes you read, like, nutritional reports.And, like, in poor countries, people are often eating,like, 1,900 calories of, like, white rice in a daybecause you can't affordprotein you can't afford like fat like it's just not factually true that people in like poor southeast
40:12Asia are eating tons of like meat and seafood and fats those are like rich people food the bookdidn't make much of a splash when it was first published I can't imagine why it would yeah but it wasinfluential with two people who matter most and those are the co-founders of the west and a pricefoundation okay one of them is a credentialed person the other one is not we're going to talk first aboutthe credentialed person, Mary Enig had a master's and a doctorate in nutritional science. So she iscredentialed, but her views are extremely fringe. She passed away in 2014. She was a bigcritic of vegetarianism. Oh, good. I love this. The vegetarian dunking always comes along withthis weird animal fat thing. Among other things, Mary Enig once argued that coconut oil could
41:02effectively treat HIV and AIDS.The other co-founder is the one who is still with us.Sally Fallon Morrill is her name.She is not the credentialed one.She has a bachelor's in English from Stanford and a master's in English from UCLA.And take it from a literary arts major from Brown University.Knock that shit off.You're not an intuition guy.
41:28She co-authored a book called The Continental.Tagian myth, why viruses, including quote unquote, coronavirus, are not the cause of disease.Our entire show is just leading up to this thing where all of these people just come out against the fucking germ theory of disease.Michael, you're not asking the questions that matter, which is if germs and viruses don't cause disease, what does?And the answer is 5G.Oh, wait, is it literally?It is literally a 5G.Oh, my God.
42:01I thought she was going to do some like,imbalance of humors type shit but this is this is very innovative in the 90s she read weston aprice's book and it really resonated with her as a result she started feeding her kids a highfat diet with lots of animal fats in it she starts feeding her kids raw milk she says her childrendon't have any health problems at all and she credits that diet for things as like even forlike her kids not needing braces.She's like, it's the animal fats, that's why.Or maybe she's decided not to give them braces.
42:36They're like, mom.Yeah, totally.Their teeth are fucked up.It's kind of mean.One of the biggest priorities of the foundation is raw milk.They don't usually call it raw milk.They call it real milk.West Ender Day Praise Foundation spins off something called the campaign for real milk.
42:59Which no joke to this day has a blog post called The Vendetta Against Altadina.Again, the whole real milk thing, it's like, what do you think pasteurization is?Real milk is only warm once, and that's when it comes out of a cow.It doesn't get warm again later.They're all like catastrophizing about like this extremely minor thing.This is a quote from the website of the campaign for real milk under the header Raw Milk Safety.Okay, it says real milk, milk that has pasture raised, full fat and unprocessed, is an inherently safe food.That's because raw milk contains numerous bioactive components that kill pathogens in the milk,
43:42prevent pathogen absorption across the intestinal wall, and strengthen the immune system.No other food that we consume contains a built-in safety system, like the one in raw milk.Dude, this is like the most density of bullshit I think we've ever had.Would you like to know what their source for this is?It is one case study from 1984.It's like it's a sheer balls to say like not only is raw milk, not bad for you,but it's actually super good for you.It's actually the only food that's this good for you.
44:13You're basically encouraging people to drink like a shitload of it.So in 2007, they also founded something called the Farm to Consumer Legal Defense Fund.And from what I can tell, this is the most effective arm in their rights.milk work.Okay.The fund provides legal support to farmers, presumably farmers aligned with their organizationalvalues.Of course.
44:37The defense fund also set a goal, quote, to make raw milk sales legal in every state.Right.They sort of put out the word that they're providing legal support and legal defense fundsto farmers.Right.In that process, they start elevating those dairy farmers in the press.and that is where we start to see a real uptick in more mainstream coverage of raw milk fights.When a raw milk dairy farmer is found to be in violation of a state or local ban or when raw milk tests positive for really dangerous pathogens, they then kind of court media and push the story as like an injustice.
45:25Look at how our federal government is attacking these small.farmers right who are just doing things the way we've always done things right don't pay attentionto the mortality rates yeah and they frame it as like really devastating evidence ofgovernmental overreach right so they're identifying raw milk farmers and then kind of pitchingthem to the media as like salt of the earth family farmers who are being trodden upon bygovernment overreach yeah like the legal attack doesn't necessarily makeheadlines in and of itself. It makes more headlines to have people kind of wilding out. And we havea couple of people who have kind of wilded out about raw milk. Right. So I want to spend some time
46:08talking about two of their biggest rising stars of the raw milk world. I'm like a raw milkinfluencer. I'm like so popular. Oh yeah. I'm like the coolest. It's just like me puking in thetoilet. One of those is someone named Mark McAfee who is from the San Joaquin Valley in California.In 2000, he co-founded what was then called Organic Pastures Dairy Company,which was renamed in 2020 to Raw Farm, USA, All Caps.And now the logos are two AR-15s.I mean, there's a lot of, like, distressed American flag graphics happening.Yeah, it's very much like aesthetic by Christian Odige.
46:54Right, right.McAfee founds his farm in 2000 by 2007.his products were in 300 storesin California. Just fucking roomtemperature, just on the shelf, justfestering. To their credit,they do refrigerate it. But then why do theyrefrigerate it? These people don't even believe in bacteria?
47:09Why are you refrigerating it?Have like bright green fucking mold floating onit, you fucking weirdos.McAfee also had a mail orderbusiness that he said brought in about$80,000 a month.Now you might be thinking,this is after the FDA ban.
47:25How on earth is he sellingmail order raw milk across state lines, and that is he is labeling it as pet food, not for humanconsumption. That's like those people that were selling like fish antibiotics on Amazon. Much likeAltadena before them, Raw Farm USA has faced a lot of lawsuits and regulation. First up, thatlabeled as pet food thing didn't last very long. He was doing that in 2007, talking about it in thepress in 2007. In 2008, they did face federal criminal charges for that. Oh, wow. God.In 2023, federal prosecutors charged that raw farm USA had once again been shipping raw milkacross state lines. So as a result, they're now in a consent decree. Oh, wow. Until 2028,
48:17the FDA can conduct audits and unannounced inspections. But as we know, the FDA, a shell of its former self.I see you just order raw milk in the fucking mail.It takes like a couple days in like the back of a van to like get to you.The farm has had many recalls.The most recent was in December for bird flu in their milk.Oh my God.When McAfee was asked for comment on the bird flu recall, he gave comment to Mother Jones.Here is how he responded to their request for.
48:54comment on the bird flu recall.Trace the money, he wrote in an email, in which he also denied bird flu could be a threatto his business or his customer's health.We don't think avian flu causes things to be unsafe.You may think I'm some kind of crazy person, but show me one person who's ever gotten sickfrom raw milk with avian flu.Viruses don't exist in raw milk.They die off quickly.
49:17Fearing viruses is ridiculous, he says.He holds that only people lacking strong microbiomes and good immune.systems need worry. Of COVID, for instance, he says, I got it and it was mild. I'm a raw milkdrinker. It didn't hardly phase me. I can't argue with science. He got COVID and he drinks raw milk.Show me one person who got sick from COVID and it wasn't mild. He's saying only people without good immunesystems need to worry. That's a lot of fucking people, dude. He's the guy with the turkey leg at the statetherapy. Like, your mom drank too much wine.Pointing of people being like fetal alcohol syndrome.
49:58He's also very clear on his view of where the demand for raw milk is coming from.He told CBS News, quote, people are seeking raw milk like crazy.Anything that the FDA tells our customers to do, they do the opposite.Yep, that sounds about right.That sounds like we're dealing with the dumbest fucking people in the country who are also running it, by the way.To your point, McAfee is.currently rumored to be in consideration for a role at HHS under RFKJ.That's always the fucking epilogue to these people now.
50:31The good news is that he does think bird flu is, quote, a huge scam.Oh, good.That was backed by pharma companies, quote, to create fear and produce a new vaccine afterCOVID closed up.Just say fucking birds aren't real.Get to the fucking point.Birds are fake dinosaurs.We all know this.
50:51God, why not?There's another sort of rising star named Amos Miller, who is an Amish raw milk dairy farmerin Pennsylvania.Okay.Pennsylvania allows for sale of raw milk.You just have to have a permit.And the core of the issue with Amos Miller is he's like, fuck your permit.I'm never getting a permit.
51:12So like, it is legal to do what he is doing.He just decided to do it in the illegal way.Right.So the permit requires dairy.farmers, raw dairy farmers, to regularly test their milk, their water, and their herd.It's pretty fucking reasonable.Permit holders can't, however, produce raw yogurt, keifer, or fresh cheese.I am guessing that that was the problem.
51:39He'd have to stop selling some of his products.It's also such garbage that you can just fucking sell this dangerous product with a permit.It feels like these people have all been coddled by like these weird carveouts.For what?For what reason are we doing this?It's so weird.Pennsylvania's attorney general has also charged that Amos Miller has also been illegallyshipping raw milk across state lines through what he calls a buyers club.
52:04That has led to this kind of wild protracted faceoff between Miller and regulators.He and his attorney really seemed to be like leaning into the controversy on a bunch of this.His attorney, while they had a court case in progress, wrote that Pennsylvania's Secretary of Agriculture thinks he's, quote, the food pope of the world.Right. He is kind of the food pope of America.Of Pennsylvania. Yeah. Absolutely.This guy thinks he's in charge of this issue. Yep. That's how a government works.Amos Miller is extremely public about his alignment with the Weston A. Price Foundation.he publicly talks up the foundation.
52:48He cites them as kind of a cornerstone of his analysisand as a flashpoint of his politicization around this issue.He has been a sponsor of their annual conferencewhere, fun fact, the keynote speaker has been RFK Jr.Of course.I'm amazed it took us this long to get to him, honestly.For all of those reasons and more,Amos Miller has made a great candidate for right-wing stardom.
53:14Part of what happens is that these guys start going hard on raw milk publicly.Weston A Price then boosts the media stories that they're in.Yeah.Right.And there's this sort of like symbiotic relationship of they keep grabbing headlinesand Weston A Price keeps boosting them.Yeah.Once we've got these couple of rogue dairy farmers in the headlines,
53:36those are now news stories that podcasters can pull up.Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.That YouTube reaction channels can start to react to.and it becomes a topic of conversation that otherwise wouldn't necessarily be a topic of conversation, right?It then becomes a circular thing where like, then you get the stories about like, oh, the movement for raw milk is getting bigger.And then that then feeds into the next round of people who are like, oh, maybe I should be trying this.And then you get the next round of stories saying, oh, there's a lot of raw milk people around.We have had a wave of raw milk endorsements from high profile people, many of whom are friends of the show.
54:13Paul Saladino has encouraged feeding raw milk to infants.Yeah, great stuff.I mean, he also says that they should eat raw livers and stuff.So at least he's consistent.Joe Rogan says he's a raw milk drinker.I watched a whole clip of him talking about it at length.And he switches pretty quickly from raw milk to whole milk as the language he uses.So I think he doesn't know what we're taught.
54:37Like, I genuinely think he doesn't know.He's someone who you could go on his show and be like,they need to heat up the milk, Joe.Easy.Easy.He also talks in the fucking clip.He's like, uh, you can pretty well tell when milk has gone bad.Like, I just sniff it before I drink it.
54:54That's not even safe or not.And you're like, we're not talking about sour milk, Joe.You can't smell Listeria, Joe.You can't.It's odorless.Oh my God.Again, these people don't believe in like microscopic things that can cause diseases.Turning Point USA sold.
55:11a shirt that said got raw milk on it, referencing a very timely got milk reference in2025, first of all. And second of all, it did have an illustration of a bull on it.Because now we're at the place where it's like, do you, do you know where milk comes from?God damn it's not even like, do you believe in bacteria? It's like, walk me through what you thinkmilk is. It's when you squeeze almonds, Mike. Oh, my God. Thomas Massey, that same Republicanfrom Kentucky, has introduced a bill to overturn the.FDA ban on interstate raw milk sales.Goop herself says that she puts raw cream in her coffee each morning and she says she gets it
55:52from Mark McAfee's farm.God, not that I expect any better from Quinn, but like Jesus Christ.She acknowledged to the cut that some of the claims around raw milk are quote unquotepseudoscience, but she also said, is someone going to invest in getting a data set aroundraw milk?Oh my God.It's not going to be the dairy industry, right?And I'm like, are you fucking kidding me?
56:16If the dairy industry was like you can do less work, sell more products at a higherprice point across the fucking country, do you not think Altadina would be jumpingat the opportunity?And also you're paying for the raw milk.It's also a business.It's not like big business versus like small farmers.It's all big business.And also like who's going to get the data set?
56:37We've had the data set since the fucking 1800s.I know.This is like the thing, this is also like RFK Jr.being like, we're finally going to see whether vaccines work.On top of that, there has also been considerable uptick in pro-Raw Milk discourse onGab and Rumble and Info Wars and a couple of Info Wars podcast hosts have talked about it.One of them Owen Schroyer said in his podcast, The War Room,Quote, they say bird flu and milk, bird flu and milk. Oh, it's the scariest thing. They'll just
57:16make raw milk illegal. That's what this is all about. And I'm like, them is Trump and RFK Jr.Right. And even under Democrats, no one was reaching further than the FDA interstate commerce man.No one was saying it's totally illegal to sell raw milk in the United States of America.Right. There's some things to think about in terms of like why raw milk has taken off now.after so many years of such successful regulation of it,there are a couple of things.One is that as in the turn of the 19th to 20th century,the dairy industry has been changing.
57:56In recent decades, more and more independentand family dairy farmers have disappeared.They've been bought out.They've been overtaken by large-scale corporate dairy farms.And if small farmers are trying to compete,with the margins of huge dairy farms, they can't, right?So instead, they're going to look for ways to signify that their milk is differentand better.
58:20This is part of the reason why some small dairies have started putting their milk in glassbottles because it looks like a heftier and more prestigey kind of product.Oh, that's interesting.There are a number of dairy farmers that I read interviews with who are like, look, I don'tbelieve that GMOs are any kind of issue, but we absolutely.label our milk as being GMO-free because people will pay more if there's a GMO-free label on it.And people are, I guess, willing to pay more for milk they think is like, fucking has so manyvitamins or some shit.
58:51On top of that, in recent years, there has been more new research to misinterpret.The biggest example of this is that in the late 90s, there was a Swiss epidemiologist whostarted to look into something called the farm effect.It is this sort of sometimes observed, sometimes not effect, where, um,Some kids raised on farms appeared to develop allergies and asthma much less than kids raised in other settings, right?So they published their first study on this in 1999, and they found that local kids who lived on farms did indeed appear to have lower rates of allergies.This is just in Switzerland, right?That's all we're talking about here.
59:35Studies since then have been considerably more mixed, but there's definitely like enough.evidence to keep looking. The farm effect appears to be most observed. And in some case,it might even be exclusively observed in Western European farms. So I'm like, well, there's a lot ofdifferences there. And also that doesn't have anything to do with milk specifically. That's just likethat could be many different things. They start looking into farm milk. Essentially,what they're talking about when they talk about farm milk is milk that is produced on the farm.But in that research, they didn't track whether the farm milk was raw or not.Because they might be just like pasteurizing it themselves.
01:00:15Right.Or they might be doing what lots and lots of farmers have been doing for hundreds of yearsand boiling or scalding the milk.Yeah.Even though they have not been able to certify what portion of that is raw versus pasteurizedversus boiled or scalded milk, raw milk folks have seized upon this and been like,Aha, I knew it.It's the milk.
01:00:37Even for them, this is thin.It is really thin.Farms in other countries have kidswho may or may not be drinking raw milkhave fewer allergies.There's like five leaps you have to maketo think that's evidence of anything.Your kid's going to get asthma.
01:00:56So as a result, don't let him get asthma instead.Give them a listeria.Kill him quicker.On top of the dairy.industry stuff on top of that new research, one of the big boosts that appears to have taken placewith raw milk consumption is COVID lockdowns and the amount of anti-vax and anti-sciencesentiment that that kicked up. Mark McAfee has talked about what a boom in sales they experiencedduring and after 2020. Raw milk and sort of the rhetoric around raw milk dovetails really
01:01:32nicely with a number of other right-wing projects and conspiracies.So one of the biggest boosters of raw milk has been a number of tradwives, right?Which is like part of this project around cultural nostalgia and like a throwback to a timewith much more misogyny.And also like everything else on TikTok, it's like mostly people faking it.I'm so sorry, you don't think Nara Smith woke up to a sick toddler and was like,I need to make cough drops from scratch?Right.
01:02:01Like, the whole thing is just like, it's like those morning routine videos that we were talking about it that are like completely faked.It's just, everyone is like faking the lifestyle that they're living.And this is just like one of the other fake lifestyles that you can pretend that you're doing.I will say some folks on the right go so far as to contend that dairies are injecting chemicals into pasteurized milk.Sure.They call it, quote, state approved milk.What?Fiat currency.
01:02:28That's just like everything you eat is state approved.There's like health inspection.at restaurants on some level at state-approved.I'm a rebel.I don't eat your state-approved USDA-inspected beef.Have fun getting poisoned.Have fun getting fucking listeria.Genuinely.
01:02:42And like, I mean, I do think that is sort of the question that we're grappling with hereis like, what are the risky decisions that we let people make?Right.We allow people to drink to excess.We allow people to smoke.We give them lots of warnings about it, but they're allowed to do it.We allow people to eat like steak tartar.you know what I mean like shit like that but we also like don't let people use like a lot of
01:03:06controlled substances we don't let you enroll your kid in school without vaccinating them forcertain communicable diseases in a lot of states not everyone anymore Jesus Christ but then I also thinkraw milk is different because there isn't actually any like benefit to it right there's not a usecase yeah the reported benefits are fake like people are lying and then it just feels like it's in acategory that's much closer just like driving without a seat belt. Yeah, like it is and it isn't,right? Like it's a freedom issue, but you're like, sorry, you want the freedom to, I guess,drink things that make you sick? Right. And also especially to give them to your kids, right? It's like,there's also victims of this who are not making a choice. And there's a reason why, like, if you want to
01:03:48smoke when you're over 18, you're smart enough to decide that that's the risk reward for you. But like,if kids are being given raw milk, those kids are not in charge of the decision. Right. That is thehardest stop for me is like the fact that like so many people are getting raw milk underthe misapprehension that it will prevent their kids from getting allergies right in theprocess their kids are getting fucking diphtheria right and like old timey ass diseases because thatalso is where like regulation would come in that you're basically making a trade off okay regulatingthis does involve some like loss of freedom if you think about it purely philosophically but alsowill save the lives of many children.
01:04:28I thought that I would give our final word today to a food scientist named JohnLucy, who was quoted by USA Today, quote, a lot of people just don't trust science anymore.But I don't even think this is science.I think a lot of it is just common sense.This is not making milk into an ultra-processed food.I know.This is just heating it to 160 degrees for 15 seconds.You fucking weirdos.
01:04:55It's so, it really is one of those things where I'm like, I feel like I'm living on another planet.The most amazing thing to me is that these people do not believe in bacteria, but they do believe that you can walk around a state fair and identify people with prenatal injuries.Thank you.
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