Making Sense with Sam Harris - #144 — Conquering Hate

Episode Date: December 7, 2018

Sam Harris speaks with Deeyah Khan about her groundbreaking films "Jihad" and "White Right." They discuss her history as a target of religious intolerance, her adventures with neo-Nazis and other white supremacists, the similarities between extremist groups, the dangers of political correctness, and other topics. If the Making Sense podcast logo in your player is BLACK, you can SUBSCRIBE to gain access to all full-length episodes at samharris.org/subscribe.

Today I'm speaking with Dia Khan. Dia is a two-time Emmy Award-winning and twice BAFTA-nominated documentary film director. She is the founder of FUSE, that's F-U-U-S-E, a media and arts company that puts women and minority communities at the heart of telling their own stories. In 2016, she became the first UNESCO Goodwill Ambassador for Artistic Freedom and Creativity. She's made at least three films to date, Banaz, A Love Story, Jihad, and White Right, Meeting the Enemy. And we talk about the last two, Jihad and White Right. You really have to see her films.

Dia is doing something truly extraordinary. She's doing something extraordinary as a person, even more than as a filmmaker. Now, you'll hear in the second half of this podcast, in the last hour or so, that we don't agree about everything. There's definitely some daylight between how she views the collision between Islam and the modern world and the way I view it and she clearly doesn't fully align with my friends Majid and Ayaan Hirsi Ali so there is a further conversation to be had on that front but I hope you'll view the exchange we did have there as a model for the kind of conversation that millions of people could and should be having about these issues. Unfortunately, audio quality for this podcast is a little spotty. There were a

few sound problems on her side. It's not too bad, but it goes in and out at a few points. I think it's worse in the beginning. So apologies for that. In any case, I love this conversation. I think Dia is fantastic. If you watch White Right, you will understand why I think so. Disagreements aside, I now bring you Dia Khan. Dia Khan. I am here with Dia Khan. Dia, thanks for coming on the podcast. Thank you for having me.

I know I mispronounced your last name. How do you say Khan when you're not an American who can't pronounce Middle Eastern names? You know, that's not bad, actually, Khan. I mean, the only difference I would say is Khan. It's a Kha. But I mean, Khan. I mean, most most people say that so not bad okay well it is great to meet you um by phone essentially we're we're over the internet and you you've explained to me that there's some explosions in the background you're not in a war zone what what's going on i'm not it's guy faw night. So there's a lot of fireworks happening, but it should calm down,

I think, in another hour or so. Okay. Well, as long as you're safe, that's all we care about. Absolutely. So you and I actually have met over the phone. You might be aware of this, but these were less than auspicious circumstances. I think you were in the room for my ill-fated conversation with Maryam Namazi. Do I have that right? I was, that's correct, yes. Because I did a film, when was it? Was this a couple of years ago now, I think?

Yeah. So I did a film about apostasy and basically young people that are leaving Islam, both in England but also in other countries, and just what their experiences are like, and then also the kind of support or lack of support that they find within the Muslim community. And then organizations like Merriam's, the Council of Ex-Muslims that provide that much needed support for these young people. So I was following Merriam a lot around that time. And then, you know, obviously, you guys had your conversation. I also happened to be in the room and eventually just turned off the camera.

friendly voice on the line. And then I was delivered into, uh, Miriam's hands and we had a, a, um, what many view as perhaps my least successful podcast. It certainly was in the top three, but it was kind of bewildering because we, we agree about many things, but we got bogged down on debating open borders and just couldn't get back to dry land. I do think that was a shame because I think you have a lot in common, actually. And what was a bit frustrating for me, being a listener, was it just felt as if you were both sort of talking past each other. And that's always just sort of sad and a waste when that happens. Well, I am virtually certain you and I a waste when that happens. Well, I am virtually certain you and I won't have that problem.

Having watched your two, I think your two most recent films that are available on Netflix, Jihad and White Right, I'm just so amazed at what you're doing and such a huge fan. And I just hope everyone watches these films. huge fan and I just hope everyone watches these films. Our conversation will, will be absolutely no substitute at all for, for actually seeing them. So you just have a, an enormous fan in me and I just want to talk about what you're doing as a filmmaker.

That's very kind of you. Thank you. Really appreciate that. It's, it's, you know, you, you,

when you, when you do your work and you know, you're so, I mean, film is such a sort of obsessive, really long, really hard process. And it's just hard for me to look up from the work that I do because it just is so all consuming. So when people finally see the work and then the responses to the work is always, you know, it's touching and confusing and, you know, quite amazing for me to realize that other people have a relationship to the work that I do. You know, because for me, it's a matter of just sort of satisfying my own curiosity, really, is what the films are an exercise in.

more than curiosity here, though, because what you've done here is you're kind of responding to a moral emergency in both films and putting yourself on the line in a way that really seems unusual for a filmmaker. But before we jump into each film, just tell us a little bit about your background. How do you come to be dealing with these topics? And I was surprised to learn you grew up in Norway, which you betray seemingly no evidence of. So who are you and where did you come from? Well, you are right. I was born and raised in Oslo, Norway. I come from a Muslim family. My father is Pakistani.

My mother is Afghan. Very, very liberal. mother is Afghan. Very, very liberal, very, I would say, sort of an eccentric family in the sense that, you know, we had lots of artists and activists and in the house when I was growing up some of my earliest memories of, you know, just sitting and playing on the carpet when my father and my mother would be entertaining and having conversations about politics and about human rights and about theater and about music and with feminists and with activists and human rights defenders from their part of the world. So I sort of grew up understanding that that's what life is like.

That's what, you know, Muslim women are like even. But sort of my dad is a bit of a strange guy. He had a lot of experiences of racism in Norway. And one of the things that he had in his mind was that the only way you can get past that is, and he gave me this lecture when I was actually quite young. He said, look, there are only two professions in the world where your race won't matter, your gender, your religion, your background won't matter. If you work harder than everybody else and you remain patient and just stick to it, then eventually you'll, you know, be able to do well in life. And one is sports and the other is within the arts and particularly music is what his

love was. And so at the age of seven, he basically decided that my profession was going to be music. So I started studying music and this was North Indian and Pakistani classical music that I studied from the age of seven. Very, very rigorous training. Very, I mean, my dad was wonderful, but also a very strict, very harsh person when it came to commitment to music. And I always sort of joke about this, that my dad didn't arrange my marriage or anything like that, but he chose my profession for me. Anyway, in Norway,

I very quickly started doing public performances, both on TV and at music festivals and various places and sort of became, I would say, this mascot for multicultural Norway. You know, this little strange girl who was doing this strange sort of music and kind of a symbol of how well Norway was doing with all of its sort of, quote unquote, new arrivals from all around the world. And everyone felt very good about themselves and patted themselves on the back. But as my success continued, I started getting more and more negative reactions as well from two sides. One side was saying, you know, what is this little basically Paki,

which is a derogatory term for people from Pakistan and South Asia, doing on our TV all the time, you know, send the, you know, people like this, you know, they need to piss off back home. And then the other side that I started also getting abuse from was from my parents' community. And the Muslim community in Norway is actually quite small, but harassment from that side also started getting very, very intense to the point where by the age of 17, I had to pack my bags, buy a one-way ticket to London and left. So it was sort of exiled from Norway, which is strange in a way because a lot of people leave difficult countries in search for safety in Norway. But for me, it was in the

opposite. Let me just see if I understand here. So you had a very liberal Muslim family, and it sounds like you didn't escape all of the Southeast Asian kinds of pressure one can get from one's family, but it was directed toward music rather than religion or conservative social norms. And so your being a female performer put you on the radar of religiously conservative people who then made your life miserable? Yes. And their reasoning was that they consider music to be unacceptable. They consider music to be a very low profession, a profession that is engaged with by prostitutes and dishonorable people. And people would often say, you know, you come from a good family,

you know, why are you engaging in such a, such a immoral and dishonorable profession? And I remember, I think I was, you know, 11, 12 years old. And, you know, we used to have these sort of delegations of men would come to our house and try to talk sense into my father saying, you know, we don't even allow our boys to engage in this profession. What are you doing? Dragging your girl into this. And he was, he would always show them the door. He would never care. And he would always say, look, this is my daughter, my decision. And, and, you know, you people just, you leave, you, you, you get, you have no jurisdiction over her. And my grandfather on my father's side also lived in Norway.

He was one of the first immigrants from Pakistan to come to Norway to work. He's very, very, very religious, very conservative. He helped build several of the mosques in Norway and very loved and respected in Norway. So, you know, so when people had, when they struggled with my father, then they would go to my grandfather saying, look, she's bringing shame on the entire community. She is leading our girls astray by showing them that, you know, they can do things like this. And this has to, this has to stop, you know, stop him. And he wasn't able to do that. And then eventually, you know, people started coming to me in the streets of Oslo. You know, people pulled knives on me. I was sat on.

I was attacked at my own concerts. People tried to abduct me from my own school. So it became very, very difficult. And you're a teenager at this point. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, my mother always gets really upset whenever she thinks about this, you know, because she's she's, she's like, you know, cause I remember when we made the decision, you know, she was sitting at the kitchen table and she sat me down and she said, look, do you understand that we can no longer protect you? Do you understand that we can no longer keep you safe and that you're going to have to go?

And I remember going, yes, I do understand that, you know, and my heartbreak sort of at the time was, I mean, obviously I was afraid of what was going on and also, you know, and my heartbreak sort of at the time was, I mean, obviously I was afraid of what was going on. And also, you know, I was afraid for my family because they were, you know, they stood by me and, and they paid a heavy price for that. You know, they were completely isolated and sort of pushed out by, by the rest of the community. But, but, you know, they still, they still chose me instead of the community. But I remember her just, you know, having to send her child away, you know,

and still to this day, she gets really, really sad when she thinks of that time, you know, and my brother lost his sister, you know, I mean, we didn't have means of communicating like this back then. So it was really hard. You know, I left my career, left my friends,

left my life, left my family, left everything behind. So it was really hard. You know, I left my career, left my friends, left my life, left my family, left everything behind. So it was hard. As you pointed out, it's amazing that you had to leave a Western society. Yeah. This is not leaving Pakistan or Afghanistan. Which would be understandable, you know. And I think, you know, the heartbreak for me was

my exit was a very public exit. You know, it wasn't something that sort of happened in secret. It was, you know, sort of plastered across the national newspapers in Norway saying that I'd been threatened out of Norway and all of this. And my kind of just sorrow at the time, sort of, you know, in the mind of a 17 year old was, you know, that no one said anything. Nobody said that, hold on, this is wrong. And I remember kind of my way of thinking at the, again, you know, as a 17 year old was, you know, I couldn't help but feel if I would have been blonde and blue eyed, would people have behaved differently? Would they have treated me differently? And would there have been any kind of outrage then, instead of just quietly letting me go like that? And I always sort of say this,

but I really felt like, you know, at the airport where you have, you know, there's always that one suitcase that keeps, you know, going round and round on the baggage carousel, that nobody comes to claim that suitcase. I felt like that. I felt like I didn't belong to the Pakistani community. And I felt like I didn't belong to my country, you know, and that was a very painful, very, very difficult feeling to carry as a 17 year old, because you don't feel like you've done anything wrong. I did everything right. I was obedient to my father's dream. You know, I worked really hard, you know, and this is what you end up with is just loneliness and just a sense of deep, deep loss, you know, wandering the streets of London, having no idea what to do or who you are or how you rebuild your

life. So, I mean, this is a very long answer to your question. No, no, it's good to get your backstory here. But ironically, so you go to London, which is also a center of Islamist and jihadist extremism. I often think of it as being one of the worst in the West in terms of your exposure to a radicalized community. I guess nobody knew who you were when you arrived, but just based on your own films, you're kind of out of the frying pan into the fire, aren't you? Yeah. Well, yes and no. Because, I mean, the reason I chose London is because, you know, I'd been here at the age of 12 and growing up in Norway, I always felt like, you know,

this strange sort of dark child in the sea of the blonde and the blue eyed. So I always, you know, had this feeling of never quite fitting in, never quite being sort of enough for either side, not being Norwegian enough, not being Pakistani enough, you know. And then the fact that you're a girl on top of it, you know, just adds all those, that extra baggage. But coming to the UK when I remember when I was 12, I loved it because I could suddenly see people who looked like me. And I suddenly felt like I didn't stand out in that way. And that's one of the reasons I chose that instead of, instead of the US,

for example, but where, but also US was too far. But anyway, I think, you know, to a huge extent, London is a symbol and an example of how sort of diverse cultures can coexist beautifully through some of the art and the music and the foods and the friendships and the kind of life that you see a lot of people leading. But then, of course, there is a flip side to that as well, where you also see people on the margins of the society and these various communities also, obviously, edging farther and farther towards violence and farther and farther towards separation and division and fear of each other. So, yes, it's a difficult place in some ways, but in other ways, it's also actually quite successful, which I think we don't really get

to talk about or see very often. When it comes to feminists from the Muslim context, or it comes to robustly addressing some of the challenges that we face within various minority communities, I've seen that engagement in a much more impressive, robust form in England than I've seen anywhere else. So I think a lot of the solutions also reside in England, as much as the problems. You must know my friend Majid Nawaz. Have you crossed paths with him? I have met him, yes. my friend Majid Nawaz. Have you crossed paths with him? I have met him, yes. Yeah. Do you align with his reform efforts at all? Or is there daylight between how you come at this and how he does? I don't know enough about the reform effort, but the little that I do know, I don't think that we align. I mean, I understand and respect some of the work that he's doing, but I think on the reform

side of things, I don't particularly see how that's effective, to be quite honest. I think people practice and manifest their religiosity in a multitude of ways everywhere. And I think that's where the key is. I don't think a kind of top-down, a kind of a choreographed reform is really needed. I think, well, actually, can you explain to me what you understand he is doing? And maybe I'm misunderstanding, and then I can... Yeah, yeah. Well, basically, he's not cast himself as a theologian at all. In fact, the theologian that he relies on most of the time is in your film, Jihad, Osama Hassan. I don't know if that film predates his association with Quilliam, but

I think I'm not mistaken about that. That's the same person. Yeah. It's the same person. The same one, yeah. Yeah. But Maja's argument is simply that actually following the line you just suggested, that given that there's so much diversity in how people practice Islam, the only answer is a respect for secularism. I mean, you have to keep your version of the faith out of public policy and out of law, and everyone should be free to practice as they want insofar as their practice doesn't infringe on the well-being of anybody else. But it's just there is no solution that gives you the one right version of Islam.

It's just there has to be a truly robust commitment to secularism in the Muslim world. And so what is the purpose then? So when we say that the reform initiative, what does that mean then? Well, he actually does, he attempts to do many of the things that seem to have happened to some of the subjects in your film, Jihad. I mean, you have people who used to be jihadists or used to be Islamists. And, you know, through some collision with modern values, they have relinquished their commitment to that theocratic project. And now they're far more liberal. And I mean, that's what happened to Majid, and that's what happened to some of the people in your film. And so the Quilliam Foundation just

attempts to formalize how one goes about reaching out to such people and changing their views on things. So I mean, Majid just finds himself in conversation with people like many of the subjects in your film. Maybe we should just jump into talking about Jihad, because I actually want to spend most of the time talking about your second film, White Right, or not your second film, but the second film I want to talk about, which is about white supremacy in the U.S., because it's just an amazing document you have produced there. But let's start with Jihad, because we're already talking about this. So you focus on this problem of religious extremism under the banner of Islam.

And the main figure in the film is somebody who I don't know all that much about, but Abu Muntasar. Maybe introduce him and how did you come to make this particular film? Well, I wanted to try and understand. Well, there was a couple of things I was trying to do. One thing was that I wanted to understand why we were starting to see our young people leaving the UK and other European countries and wanting to go to foreign battlefields. So young Muslim kids who, you know, we would imagine have every reason to want to live and want to just lead their lives as young people here instead of going on these foreign battlefields. So I was wanting to try and understand why is that? Why would somebody do that? And then the second reason, which was much more personal, was after having

all the experiences that I've had in my life, I sort of got to a point in life where I was sort of done being afraid and done hiding and done leaving country after country and wanted to do something that I've never done, which is to sit down with the kinds of men that were the reason that I had to leave Norway, for example, and see if it's possible for us to sit across from each other and have a conversation just about life and about each other. And so I set out on that sort of search and then came across Abu Muntasir, who basically is one of the sort of founding figures of recruiting young people from the UK, actually from America in the past as well, Denmark, Germany, across Europe, recruiting young Muslims

to go and fight on foreign battlefields. Europe, recruiting young Muslims to go and fight on foreign battlefields. In his time, it was Afghanistan, it was Bosnia, it was Chechnya, Kashmir. And then he subsequently also then inspired this kind of trend of foreign fighters that we now have seen in recent years. And what was really interesting in speaking to him is that, you know, he was saying that one of the biggest differences between his era and what we're witnessing now is that when he was going over there, because they were fighting against the Soviets, he said that they were considered, I mean, as we already know, you know, they were considered to be performing a holy war that was of benefit to the West. So the West was encouraging it and supplying weapons to these guys and providing other logistical support to the Mujahideen and the Jihadis, basically. And he said, obviously, now the enemy has changed. So now this force is viewed as a very negative one. Now this force is viewed as a very negative one.

But anyway, the point about him is that he managed to sow these seeds of this movement and of this trend that we now have seen blossom through the recent years. And he, by the time I got to speak to him, he's completely renounced his actions. He utterly regrets everything that he's done. And he is now completely dedicated every single moment of his life in trying to undo what he's done. Trying to, I mean, we spoke about forgiveness a lot in both in the film and also off camera. And I think he is trying to get to a place where he can forgive himself for what he's, the damage that he's caused. And I think that's why he's doing everything in his power now to try and work with young

people, both in prison, in the community. And he's still very much a believer, but has understood that his understanding or his way of expressing his faith at that point was, you know, very misguided and something that he really, really feels a lot of pain about now. Yeah. And that pain comes through. He breaks down, I think at least twice in interviews with you. And it's really, it's quite mesmerizing to watch because he's right out of central casting. He's exactly who you would think would be the bad jihadist in your movie of the war on terror. And yet he has had a total change of heart. And it's extraordinary.

I mean, to me, I mean, I have to be honest, I started the film very, very pessimistic. I mean, and I wasn't quite sure what I was going to find. started the film very, very pessimistic. I mean, and I wasn't quite sure what I was going to find. I had a feeling that I would just sit with these guys and that it would just be an uphill struggle and that we would never agree on anything. And, you know, I've been afraid of men like this most of my life and to sit down with them and to be able to connect with them in the way that we did and for them to share as much with me as they did was really special. And I left the project far more hopeful that change is possible. You know, it's, it's, no one is beyond redemption. No one is beyond the recognition that I did something wrong. I think it takes a lot of courage for

people to admit that they did something wrong and wanting to try and do better, wanting to try and do something different. And he gets a lot of, I mean, you know, he, after the film came out as well, you know, he got a lot of negative reactions and the film did too, you know, because a lot of people, some people, you know, who used to love him were saying, you know, cause a lot of people, some people, you know, who, who used to love him were saying, you know, you're a sellout and you know, how, you know, what, what a coward you are. And he says that in the film too, but the backlash from sort of the rest of, you know, society was also very, very intense for him because, you know, people want to see him hung. People want to see him, you know, dead for what he

did and don't see the value in where he stands today and what his sort of wisdom that he's arrived at can contribute towards the younger people that now are going through some of the same issues that he did, you know. And he was very different as a leader, as a recruiter. He was very different than his followers is what I found, which I thought was quite interesting. He was absolutely committed to the cause. He was very, very dedicated, both to his faith, but also to kind of the geopolitical realities at the time that he wanted to participate or contribute in some way. or contribute in some way. Whereas his followers were much more driven by a sense of purpose, a sense of belonging, and kind of revering him as the father figure that they didn't have in their life. And I just find that really interesting that recruiters like him and leaders like him are able to sort of take those feelings and redirect them into a political cause and ultimately towards violence. Yeah, yeah. Well, the Jihadi worldview is incredibly compelling. You know, I often think

of it as you get to be a spiritual James Bond, right? I mean, not only do you get to organize a gang, right? And you get to channel all of your sexual repression and awkwardness and dissatisfaction into this project of becoming a warrior for God. And it really just checks all of the boxes in the male imagination and search for self-aggrandizement. And then if you believe the doctrine, you're expecting an eternal reward, which is explicitly sexualized, right? I mean, you get to hang with virgins with God forever. And it really is like, in my view, the scariest possible set of memes to be spreading. But there's no mystery as to why it's so compelling with a few basic assumptions, just assuming that paradise exists and that martyrdom is the way to get there. But also I think what's really interesting is's sort of emotional and psychological vulnerabilities is,

is underlying a lot of this and, and the needs that these movements are satisfying for young men. I think what's interesting about that is a lot that we can actually do something about. And one of the things that I did find is that as much as, as, you know, these guys, you know, go on about religiosity and that that's their, you know, that's their primary driver. And that's kind of the, I always call it sort of the window dressing that they put on top of everything else. I did find that other than some of the very, very committed guys, like recruiters, like the leaders, most of the followers were actually not particularly religious, actually, and that

they were far more driven by, you know, a sense of alienation, you know, and sense of, and this is something that I found quite similar, actually, between these guys and the white supremacists that I met is just this inability to deal with shame and humiliation in their life, whatever the source of that might be, whether it's experiences of racism or abuse or trauma or whatever the specifics might be, but just an inability to deal with that. And all sort of extremist movements seem to equalize whatever loss of manhood and masculinity these men feel, whatever emasculation they feel, this sort of equalizes and like you say, sort of supercharges it for you. And then also,

look at the rewards. I mean, nevermind the rewards in the hereafter, but look at the rewards that you get while you're here. Look at, for someone who feels invisible and powerless and insignificant, suddenly everybody cares about you. Suddenly you are on the front covers of every single newspaper. You're on every single newscast. The most important men on the planet, you know, men at the time like Obama has to now think about you and talk about you and worry about you. I mean, that's extraordinarily intoxicating. And I mean, so I agree with you that the religiosity or religious aspects of it that these guys, you know, believe that they're loyal to is, of course, a part of the picture. And so is also, you know, foreign policy, because when I started making the film, people were saying, oh, you know, my friends were going, you know, find out, you know, is it foreign policy, grievances, or is it religion? And what I found is that, you know, obviously, both are absolutely a part of the cocktail. But what makes somebody get up and act on that, you know, I have a lot of, you know, I

was against the Iraq war. I have a lot of issues with, you know, American British foreign policy as well. But there's a reason I pick up a camera and these guys pick up a gun. And I wanted to, why do they, why are some Muslim men drawn to this? There are, you know, 1.6 or 7 billion Muslims walking around the world right now. And if the only qualifier to be a terrorist or to be a jihadi is to be a Muslim, then everyone would be dead by now, right? So that's not enough of a qualifier either. So what underpins it? And so that was interesting to me, is that it was the psychological and emotional vulnerabilities that were very much the reason why some of these guys are drawn to it and other

people are not. And how cynically these movements and these recruiters are targeting these vulnerabilities that young men have. I mean, they're actively looking for these guys. I remember somebody saying to me during the course of making that film is, you know, when ISIS was very, very active online, do you remember? There was a lot of online recruitment going on. And, you know, when ISIS was very, very active online, do you remember? There was a lot of online recruitment going on. And, you know, what I found is that their recruiters would spend hundreds of hours with young kids online, hundreds of hours. And you can only imagine, you know, some kid who is disengaged from the rest of his life, you know, maybe doesn't have the kind of friendship circles or is struggling at home or is, you know, having some sort of expectations in his

life from his family or from his country that he's unable to sort of live up to. And then you've got this person spending hundreds of hours on you, building loyalty, building friendship. I mean, that's extraordinary. And same with Abu Musir, the men, his followers that I spoke to, they would have died for him any day. They would have died for him in some ways before they would have died for their faith. Does that make sense? So that intensity of their relationships within these groups, it cannot be underestimated, I think. Yeah, well, it has a cult-like structure. You know, it's just you have a charismatic leader, you have various beliefs which convey meaning intrinsically. I mean, you're talking about a

person's place in the universe and what happens after death and what what answer makes sense of every apparent injustice and struggle and failure in this life. It will all be rectified at a certain point. It's interesting because to compare the two phenomenon, the phenomenon of jihadism and the phenomenon of white supremacy, they have so much in common. And as you say, the recruiting tactics are the same. The vulnerabilities of the young men, in many cases, are the same. I think there are a few differences. Religion is one part of it. Religion does show up in the white supremacist side as well because they have their own Christian beliefs that they kind of graft on to their racism and xenophobia. But it's clearly not as integral to white

supremacy as religious belief is to jihadism. I think some of them, it really is quite intensely, and that's why my head was sort of wanting to explode when I was listening to some of the white supremacists and using some of the same terminology saying you know and suddenly i'm a warrior for god yeah yeah and i'm sitting there going oh my goodness i can't believe i'm if this is like a repeat this is the you know the the slogans and the flags are different and and you know but but it's the same guy and also having been on the receiving end of death threats from from both yeah you get it from both yeah Yeah. I mean, I have to say, reading some of those threats, it might as well be the same guy. And what they say that they're

going to do to somebody like me, it's the same kind of stuff, you know, which is really interesting and telling, I think. But of course, there are differences as well. But I just find that the type of personalities that are drawn to this seem to be very, very similar across extremist groups. And also the tactics are very, very similar too. Yeah. And also there's honor culture at the back of both. I would think that the honor culture is a little more intense in the jihadist context. the jihadist context, but still, you know, white supremacy drawing a lot of energy from southern honor culture is easy to see some of the same dynamics there. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, gender is a huge part of this, you know, and I think,

you know, the term toxic masculinity, I think is absolutely appropriate for both as well. And both are sort of harping on to a past, to a golden past, you know, when everything used to be so much better, when it used to be great. And, you know, and they can be a part of ushering in that past, which includes, you know, bizarrely, you know, putting women back into the home and into very, very severe and rigid gender roles. And, you know, only to, you know, continue having either Muslim babies or white babies, you know. It's really interesting, all the similarities there. It seems like in your encounters with your subjects in Jihad, these were, I think, almost to a man, people who had thought better of the whole project and had come out the other side, at least to some significant degree. Remind me, was there anyone in the film who was just fundamentally hostile to you and a current jihadist or Islamist whose views were just antithetical to everything you were trying to talk about? There were a couple of guys who are active now,

but being a Muslim woman myself, it's even the most hardcore of men, hardcore fanatic jihadi types, many, many of them, depending on how you approach them, will find it difficult to be hostile just to be hostile. So there's this kind of strange courtesy thing. And since I wasn't there to have a kind of an antagonistic conversation or to have, I wasn't really there to have a fight. It actually went, for the most part, it went okay. But I was very clear, you know, I mean, I am Muslim, but you know, I don't cover my hair, you know, I come from the background that I come from. And my sort of

condition was that I come as me, you come as you. And, you know, we both leave our baggage at the door. And we meet each other as just who we are. And that was fine. Well, I must say, you do bring out the best in your subjects. I mean, I've been describing you with reference to the film on white supremacists as kryptonite for white supremacists. It's just amazing the effect you have on these guys. So let's just pivot to white right, which, again, people just have to go see. It's on Netflix in the U.S. Do you know whether it's globally available on Netflix? No, it's on Netflix in the US. Do you know whether it's globally available on Netflix? No, it's not.

It's, it's available in, where is it in the US and in the UK, I think. And then in Australia and Canada, other places that there are their own broadcasters are streaming it. Okay. Well, people have to get their eyeballs pointed in the right direction and watch this hour-long film. So let's just talk about how you got into position to even shoot this, because you find yourself in Charlottesville just at the right time when all of this famously goes off. How did you come to be in Charlottesville? And you must have just heard that there was going to be a big demonstration and just assumed that would be a good thing to film.

Well, so there's been several events at Charlottesville or rallies at Charlottesville last summer. Excuse me, I went to the first one, which was the KKK, was going to basically protest some of the statues being removed. So I went to that and it was maybe about 40, 50 Klan people and what felt like at least 1,000 counter-protesters. And then there, some people were saying that actually there's going to be another rally coming up in a couple of months. You know,

are you coming to that? And I kept going, I don't know. I mean, I don't, I barely even knew what Charlottesville was until that point. And then in the meantime, so I went to that and then the entire process of trying to get people to speak to me was very, as you can imagine, very, very difficult and very time consuming because most people that I contacted were not interested in speaking to me because I explained again, I was very clear who I am, what kind of background I have, what kind of politics I have, because I didn't want anyone to feel like I was springing anything on them in person. I wanted them to know clearly this is who I am and this is what I would like to do, which is to try and not necessarily speak about the ideology,

but try and find ways to discuss why people are drawn to these movements. So most of them said no, not interested. And one guy, his name is Jeff Scoop, and he was the head of the, he is the head of the National Socialist Movement, which is the largest neo-Nazi group in America, and one of the oldest ones. He wrote back and was not particularly interested. And, but I thought, okay, well, at least he's, you know, not saying a complete no. So let me just push that. I pushed him for such a long time. And he finally said, okay, you get one hour, you come to where I live. There's a specific motel. You come to that one hour and then you just leave. And I said, okay, thank you. Fine. No problem at all. And five hours later, he says, uh, we're going to a rally, which will be in

Charlottesville and you are welcome to join us. And, and I said, wow, okay, great. And then I actually flew to Detroit, which is where he is. And he drove and I sat in the car with him filming for nine hours. He drove from Detroit to Charlottesville. And you had one person in another cameraman or. It was just me and my colleague, a producer who also films and that's it so just the two of us in the car with nazis basically for nine hours talking about all kinds of very inappropriate stuff because nine hours is a very long time you can find out who someone is after nine hours in the car yeah Yeah. Oh my goodness. Absolutely. And, and, and he basically said, look, I guarantee your safety and you know, you, you come, it'll be fine. And so the whole

deal was that I'm going to march with them. I'm, I'm going, I'm going to basically do whatever they do so that I can get a chance to walk in their shoes and just see, you know, what happens. So as you can imagine, you know, we pull up to these, you know, different parking lots beforehand, all these various, you know, white nationalists and all these various white supremacist groups are gathering from all around America. And they're, and I'm the only brown person and one of the very, very few women, I mean, nevermind even brown, but just even one of the few women there and everybody just looks at me like, like I just, they want to like slip my throat or something.

It was absolutely horrendous. So even though Jeff had said, it's fine, you know, we'll look out for you. It's, it's, it's okay. It was horrible. And I kept being pulled off by different groups. You know, who the F are you? You know, what are you doing here? You blah, blah. Wow. And then they also start saying, then Jeff also starts saying, you know, the Antifa. So the anti-fascists will also be, you know, counter protesting at the rally.

And, you know, we usually get into physical fights with each other. You know, sometimes there's been hammers that have come out. And I'm just standing there going, oh, my goodness me, what have I just agreed to do? Was this the point where you felt the least safe physically in making either of the two films? Yes, yes. But there were several instances in this film where I felt very, very, very unsafe. I mean, this was just one of them. I mean, after, well, during the actual Charlottesville, so I march in with them and they're chanting, you know, Jews will not replace us. And they're

chanting about deportations that they need to become. What is their chant? Anyway, now we start the deportations and I'm marching in with these people. And then the local community of people from Charlottesville and the counter protesters are shouting and screaming at us as well. And I'm trying to film in the middle of all of this and I'm wearing a helmet.

And suddenly I get pepper sprayed because they were trying to pepper spray somebody else. And it was just a mess. And it was terrifying when all the violence broke out because the entire time, even before it turned into violence, the intensity of all of these people, everybody was on edge and you could tell both sides were just raring to go at each other. So when it, when it happened, it was just, it was really, really terrifying and managed to anyway, get back safely to the, the barely to the parking lot again. And then one

of the guys said, oh, there's going to be this gathering afterwards. And it's fine for you to bring cameras. You can talk to some of the people there. And I said, okay, that's fine. In the mountains of Virginia somewhere, off some dirt road in this compound, it was about 60, 70 guys there. And I remember talking to my colleague saying, okay, let's just get our cameras and go down. And he goes, no, look, let's just wait. Keep the camera in the car. And if everything is okay, we'll come get our cameras and go down. And he goes, no, look, let's just wait. Keep the camera in the car.

And if everything is okay, we'll come back and get the camera. And I said, look, he said, it's fine. Let's just get it. He said, no, no, just let's wait. And you start walking down this dirt road and the guys start gathering and start shouting and screaming and cursing.

I mean, I probably can't say the stuff. You can say whatever you want. Okay, but you know, the fuck are you? Are you fucking media? Are you a fucking Jew? Are you, I mean, I probably can't say the stuff. No, you can say whatever you want. Okay, but you know, the fuck are you? Are you fucking media? Are you a fucking Jew? Are you, I mean, it just starts shouting. And they can't even really see me yet. You know, put your fucking hands up.

And then they start bringing out weapons. And some of them are topless and they've got bruises on their body from earlier in the day. And they're drinking. I see lots of, you know, beer in one hand and weapons in the other hand. And this isn't like, I mean, I'm not really used to seeing that many weapons anyway, you know, coming from Europe. But this was stuff that I've seen like in battlefields. Like this wasn't handguns. These were massive machines.

And finally get down there and they start getting in my face and start shouting. And what kind of a fucking Muslim are you? Are you a Shia? Are you a Sunni? And I start chuckling a little bit going, what does that have to do with anything? You know, and why is your fucking Muslim are you? Are you a Shia? Are you a Sunni? And I start chuckling a little bit going, what does that have to do with anything? And why is your fucking head not covered? What kind of a fucking Muslim are you?

And I'm going, oh my goodness me. And I remember looking, glancing at my phone and because they've got my colleague circled as well and shouting at him. But where are your Nazi friends at this point? Because at this point you've got Nazi friends. Yeah, no yeah no so he's gone so he i suddenly i can't see him and he's frantically looking for whatever person had said it was okay for us to come because he kept going to be cool it's you know so-and-so said it's fine it's fine and so he kind of disappears and these guys are smoking you know blowing cigarette in my face and and you know just, it's, it was so frantic and more

and more of them were coming and like getting in my face, like no space between us at all. And, and I remember glancing at my phone and it says no signal. Right. Right. And at that point, I'm thinking, okay, they can put a bullet in my head and they can put me in the ground right here in the middle of nowhere. And no one's going to find out. No one's going to know because then everything starts running through my head going, I haven't told my colleagues that I'm here. I haven't told my family. I haven't told the TV channel. I haven't told anybody that I'm actually here. So if something happens to me, they'll know I'm gone, but they're not going to ever, ever find me again. they'll know I'm gone, but they're not going to ever, ever find me again. And finally, the guy,

Brian Culpepper is his name. He came and he managed to negotiate our way out. So we were allowed to finally leave. Oh, so he didn't actually negotiate your staying there and filming and- No, he wasn't able to. Breaking bread with those guys. Yeah. No, because it got so hysterical and they were cursing. I mean, it was, the people were very, very riled up. And so finally left. And my colleague is white. So it was just me who's not like them. And I remember just, you know, immediately getting back to the motel and, and, and, you know, writing my, my colleague, Joanne, and just saying to her, look, you know, this is where I am. This is what I'm doing. Here's my mother's phone number. Here's my brother's phone number. You know, if you don't hear from me every couple of days, you just need

to, you need to let them know, you know, but, but this was just one of many, many, very unpleasant experiences. At another place, I went to a training camp where I was allowed to film part of it and then not another part. And I remember a guy sitting there with, again, everybody's drinking, everybody has guns out and he's got his gun on his lap and he's holding it and he's looking at me, just staring at me, not talking, just staring at me as I'm talking to other people. And then finally he says, you know, the best thing about serving in Iraq and serving in Afghanistan, he's a former soldier, he says, is getting paid to shoot ragheads like you. I'm sitting there going, okay, that's great.

Thank you. Okay. And just, you know, my way away from there. And it was just horrifying. And some other guy following me around, you know, clearly on medication, also for a former soldier, following me around, you know, clearly on medication, also for a former soldier, kind of twitching and kind of glassy eyed. You know, I'm going to put a fucking bullet through your head. I'm going to put a fucking bullet through your camera. Don't fucking film me. I'm going, oh my goodness, I'm not filming you. Stop following me. Well, this is amazing to hear because this is virtually none of this comes through in your film. Because virtually none of this comes through in your film. I mean, your film is a far more hopeful document. And now I'm beginning to worry that it's a document for another world. Because the main import of your film is you put a white supremacist in a room with Diakon and there's no way to maintain the white supremacy for very long under the empathic insistence of you as an interviewer. whose names escape me, but there's probably three guys who you seem to spend a lot of time with, and each falls under your sway to a degree that is, frankly, pretty adorable. And they're effectively deprogrammed of their white supremacy in your presence based on questions you ask. And

I gotta say, the fact that you also happen to be a beautiful woman can't have been irrelevant. The effect on the viewer is, I basically felt like I was watching three guys fall in love with you and encounter a level of cognitive dissonance with their worldview that was just completely unsustainable. I don't know if you felt that yourself, but it was just like, I mean, when you get around to asking them, so you mean to tell me you would want to deport me and you would think I should be stripped of my rights? And each one of them is saying, no, no, well, no. I mean, and it's amazing. I mean, these are amazing encounters you've captured on film.

They are. But you did not have that effect on Richard Spencer and Jared Taylor, it seems. And was that based on them or you had less access to them? Or how do you perceive the difference between those encounters? vicious encounters. The, the, some of the men were one of the men who in the film leaves Brian Culpepper. He saw me being treated like this. And part of his reason for leaving was that he couldn't see me treated like this because he was starting to consider me to be a friend. And this was very, so I think he started seeing his movement in a different light when he's seeing it relate to his friend, somebody like me. Whereas beforehand, you know, this hadn't really occurred to him. It wasn't personal. It doesn't become personal. But when it comes to the Richard Spencers and the Jared Taylors of the world, I did not get to spend as much time with them. But also, I actually find

them to be more sort of sinister in many ways. I, you know, and also more dangerous. I mean, the, the, what surprised me most about making this film actually was,

was the very deep difference between sort of the working class guys, or you say blue collar, don't you guys. And, and these kind of this sort of suit and tie brigade of Richard Spencer and Jared Taylor and others like them. And, and I mean, I found the kind of camaraderie and the, the, the kind of love between these various groups really telling as well,

because you see Richard Spencer treating his own followers with, with a lot of contempt and a lot of disrespect, which I think is interesting. Whereas, you know, Jeff and some of the disrespect, which I think is interesting. Whereas, you know, Jeff and some of the Nazis that I spend time with, you know, they, for example, at Charlottesville, you know, they were, when the worst violence started happening, there were several cars that were brought up to one of the areas to pick up all the leaders of the different groups. And Richard Spencer was escorted off into a car and a lot of the other leaders. And Jeff was actually one of the only guys who said,

no, I'm going, because their followers weren't able to fit into the cars. So Jeff said, I'm going to walk back. So he walked back through all the counter protests with the rest of his group because he didn't want to be separate in that way. So I think that was really telling. But, but excuse me,

but your question is, why was my encounters with, with those guys different? I think because their aim is something different and their reason for being in the movement is something different. I think for, for the neo-Nazis that I spoke to, a lot of it is about emotions. And whereas for the Jared Taylors and the Richard Spencers, it's much more about ideology and it's much more about emotions. And whereas for the Jared Taylors and the Richard Spencers, it's much more about ideology and it's much more about power. And I think it's also about wanting access to more power. Whereas for the other guys, it's just trying to regain some sense of dignity and some sense of purpose and meaning and belonging in all the words that we said earlier about the previous film. So I think it's harder to get through, you know, a lot of people who are deeply committed

to an ideology, you know, they have a barrage of argumentative tactics and their worldview is something that's been built over a long period of time. And they've spent ages cherry picking arguments and reading biased materials to constantly reinforce their worldview and reaffirming and refining their arguments against the other side. And I think Richard Spencer and Jared Taylor fit into that, whereas the other guys were able to sort of connect to my humanity and therefore also their own. Yeah, the difference is really striking. Just, you know, as a viewer, it's when your Nazi friends

are warming up to you, it really, I mean, you know, adorable is not too strong a word. It was really, you know, those were, it was very cute to see you just kind of cut through their worldview. It was very cute to see you just kind of cut through their worldview. And the result is just superhumanizing, and you feel compassion for these guys. And then to see you walk into a room with Richard Spencer, and he's got this kind of reptilian glare, and he really is a sinister guy who, I mean, there's no warmth. And his own egocentricity and cruelty are so obvious. I mean, the guy is just a colossal asshole. So as a viewer, you're sort of just, I just want you to get out of the room with him. I was uncomfortable having you in his company. But when you went into these situations, your technique as an interviewer is really pretty interesting. Again, I'm aware that there's so much happening off camera that I'm not seeing, but you're just really directly seeking to build

an empathic connection with someone. You're not arguing with them. You're not trying to give a litany of reasons why they're wrong about anything. You're trying to understand them and then just juxtapose the rapport that's being built by that just basic human communication with the fact that they have a set of beliefs wherein you are branded as the other so irretrievably as to really suggest that they should want to murder you or have someone else murder you. And at a certain point, you just juxtapose those two facts. And in the cases of at least three of the guys, it proves totally untenable. How did you think about your approach to this? Because you really are just putting yourself on the line in a very interesting way. I think you have to, or at least I feel like

I had to, because, you know, I've had experiences of racism most of my life. And, you know, as a result, I've been an anti-racist, anti-fascist campaigner most of my life as well. And I've done sort of everything that you would imagine. I've gone to, you know, anti-fascist protests. I've shouted at these guys. I have, you know, flipped them off. I have thrown stuff at them. I have, you know, I've done all of that.

And none of that really did anything. You know, it's the other thing that I was always told growing up, you know, is that just give it time and these movements will just disappear. And, and it's true, you know, they, they sort of, you know, reduce in size and, and in, and in noise. And, but then they come back, you know, they never quite ever go away. And, and here we are today with, with sort of this resurgence again. And so I just got to a point where I realized I, again, that I'm done being afraid of people like this. And I need to try something that I've never done before, which is to sit down and to listen and to see if it's

possible for us, you know, seemingly enemies. I mean, they're my enemy as much as I'm theirs in many ways. And to see if it's possible for us to build a human connection, the ideology eventually falls apart for most people, because it's always about something else. It's always about other human needs that are not being met. And if you can acknowledge that, and if you can sort of sit through that together, and I think a sincerity and a real wish to listen and not condemning people, not, you know, it's very easy to condemn them, I have to say, both sides. It's very, very easy to condemn the jihadis and to condemn the white supremacists as well. And it's very, very satisfying, I have to say. It feels great to condemn them and to judge them.

But it doesn't provide any answers and it doesn't provide any results. judge them, but it doesn't provide any answers and it doesn't provide any results. And I did not make the film with the hopes of changing anyone or changing anyone's mind or anything like that. I purely made the film to try and understand why people do the things that they do, why people believe the things that they believe, and to see if it's possible for us to sit across from each other just as human beings and use that as a starting point towards something, something else, just of greater understanding, perhaps. So the fact that, you know, some of them started using words like friend for me, the fact that we were able to, you know, build a real relationship with each other of of friendship was absolutely shocking to me and and confusing and and and something i never would have expected if you would have said

to me a year ago that i'm going to become some of your best friends are nazis my goodness i i i would have i would have laughed at you at first. And then secondly, I think I would have been offended that you would think that I would do that, you know, and here we are, you know, and it's very, very strange, but it does give me a lot of hope. And going back to the Richard Spencer and that kind of dynamic also, what's the biggest difference between him and some of these guys is I spoke to these guys alone. I spent a lot of time with them alone. Richard Spenson never was around me alone. Yeah, that could be a big difference. He always had his plans. So that kind of dynamic of always wanting to sort of show

yourself as this, you know, whatever, you know, tough guy is very different. And the same thing with the Nazis as well. All the difficult experiences that I had only happened when they're all big groups and the testosterone and the anger and the name calling and all of that is really intense and whipped up. Maybe your superpower has only come out when you're one-on-one. Yeah. You're a superhero that has to get alone with her target. Exactly. That's my superpower, yeah.

But it's nonetheless super. I mean, the effect is really, it really is pretty mesmerizing to watch. I'm so touched by them. I have to say, you know, and Ken, one of the guys, you know, that's the guy who was, you know, throwing the anti-Semitic flyers out of his window. You know, he called me because in the film he doesn't leave. He uses the word friend for me, but he doesn't actually leave. But in the film, I also asked him, I said, okay, so, you know, what does this mean? You know, now, you know, going forward, what is this going to mean? And he said, well, I think, you know, this opens me up to, you know, maybe speaking to other

people who are different to me. And he actually stayed true to that. He actually, he actually did do that. And he ended up speaking to, after I'd gone, we kept in touch. And he was also, I mean, he was expelled from his university and I tried to help him some of the people at his university, some of the professors to try and say that, look, I don't believe that he has it in him to do that. And somebody like him at the crucial point where he stands in his life right now, the best place for him to be right now is in a space where he can continue his education. I think if you take that away from him, then we do run a risk of him, you know, going over the edge. But he really needs to continue learning and needs to be in an environment of knowledge and people and thinking and reading. Nevertheless, they kicked him out. And I understand that as well. But anyway, there's a black pastor, an African-American pastor in his apartment complex, who he started talking to. And then this pastor invited him to his congregation, which is an all black congregation. And then Ken goes there, talks about his past as a Ku Klux Klan member and currently as a neo-Nazi and his views and all of this. And the response to him was kindness and was compassion. And, you know, people apparently came up and hugged him after and said, you know, obviously we disagree with you and dislike, you know, what you stand for.

but it takes a lot of courage for you to come in here and say, and, and, you know, sort of speak in this way and to put yourself out there like that. And that completely just unpicked everything for him. So he called me months ago and said, look, I've completely left. I've left the ideology. I've left the groups. I've left everything. And I'm so sorry. And he said, you know, the hate was eating me from the inside. And he said, you know, I want to try and do better. And, and, you know, and it's, it tells me that we can't really afford to give up on people, you know, people who seem like him. I mean, he has a massive swastika, as you see in the film, you know, has a massive swastika tattooed on his chest and a Klan tattoo, utterly committed to his cause. And, you know, today he's left. And in the film, he says, oh, you know, but I'm never going to break bread with a Jew. And, you know, two or three weeks ago, I heard that that's exactly what he's done.

Oh, wow. Nice. He's had his tattoo removed, you know, so it's, so there is hope. I'm not saying that, you know, his tattoo removed, you know, so it's, so there is hope. I'm not saying that, you know, let's hug a Nazi and everything's going to be fine. But, but I, what, what I've learned is that I think, you know, no platforming these people and, and, and completely just rejecting them, I think feeds into their kind of story of victimhood. And as if, you know, they are speaking some sort of forbidden truth. And I think if anything, we need to expose racism, we need to challenge it and we need to, we need to confront it rather than allowing it to just marinate in its own kind of madness, you know, and going back to when you were talking about, you know, interviewing technique. I mean,

I don't think I really have an interviewing technique other than just, I think empathy is very important to me. No, it doesn't seem like a technique. It just seems like a willingness to hold all of your judgment in abeyance and make a connection with these people. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think the judgment and the kind of feelings of self-righteousness for holding all the right opinions and having all the correct, you all of that kind of stuff, I think is just counterproductive. I think it actually adds to the problem and adds to people's radicalization rather than not. the jihadis who left, and then also with former violent neo-Nazis in this movement, in this film, you know, what struck me after the fact is that what interrupted people's kind of hatred and people's ideology is for someone who represents the other in their eyes to treat them with dignity and with respect and with some level of kindness.

And that doesn't immediately change somebody, but that began the process of unraveling some of this in their minds. And that was just as true for some of the jihadis as well. You know, for example, being treated by, you know, an American nurse, for example, you know, so it's, so somebody doesn't suddenly become no longer a jihadi, but, but again, human connection. And I think empathy. And I asked Jeff at the end of our five hours, there was supposed to just have been one hour. I asked him, I said, look, why are you sort of tolerating me? Why, why are you wanting to continue this conversation? And he said, he said, I completely dislike what

you say. I completely disagree with what you stand for and the world that you want to live in. And he said, and I'll actively fight against it. And he said, but I respect that you believe in something. And he said, I respect that you are sincerely an activist. And he said, so that I can actually relate to. He said, everything that you stand for is just kind of horrible to me, but I respect your sincerity. Well, if memory serves, you made more progress with him than that.

Well, well, he's still the head of the Nazi party, though. Wait, so Jeff, who is Jeff? Jeff is the guy.