Making Sense with Sam Harris - #237 — Another Call from Ricky Gervais

Episode Date: February 16, 2021

Ricky Gervais calls to discuss Sam's monster joke from their last conversation and then other things happen... If the Making Sense podcast logo in your player is BLACK, you can SUBSCRIBE to gain access to all full-length episodes at samharris.org/subscribe.

hey ricky hi quick one i've been thinking about your your dream your joke in your dream and uh as we comedians say i think it deserves more a little bit more yeah yeah no yeah it is no it is it is sometimes it's funny for the wrong reasons and on a meta level well first of all it's funny that you told me it it's funny that you that you right i had to tell me that and. And I was underwhelmed. And it's like you've been through that once. Because the funniest thing, of course, is an eminent thinker waking their partner up and going, I've just dreamt a great joke. And it just clicked.

That's funny already, right? Listen, you had Annika laughing at the phrase eminent thinker. Yeah. Well, right. But so it's good. this is what i want to talk about right so it sounds like a joke it sounds like a child's joke even the premise you know what noise does a monster make right now that's a that's a simple you think it's going to be a pun some sort of play on words what noise but it's better than that because there's even a play on

there in your in your joke because we think it means a noise a monster consciously makes a roar or a grr but no it's the it's the involuntary sound it makes because it's big and it's heavy and it's it can't help that noise it doesn't want to make that noise. So that's funny already. We even pose this as this monster making this noise, but it's just because he's big and heavy, right? So that's funny, right? Because of course, and the other thing is you've learned that noise from cartoons and theater productions because a monster doesn't make that noise you've learned that from cartoons and theater productions okay and here's what's the funny bit for me is that i think you think that's funny in your subconscious sort of dreamy state because i think you invented that i think you think you invented that noise and monster makes, even though you've

learned it from cartoons and theater. That's why I think you think it's so funny because I think subconsciously you think, well, that's a great play. That's a great play on, you know, what sound does a monster make? Oh, it's this one. And you think you invented that. I don't know. There's some, there's something there that you were excited about the cleverness of it. I don't know. Maybe. I'm very flattered that you've done an autopsy on my psychosis, but I would describe it to just the frank psychosis of the dream state.

Literally, that was one of the funniest things I had ever heard. Of course. And you can't help it because, as we said last time you your brain just cut to the emotion of having thought of the funniest joke in the world without the the workings out you know you hadn't gone through that process you just got to and jane reminded me of one that she had 30 years ago she woke up laughing right and she said i just dreamt i told the funniest joke and she was already out of it and knew it wasn't funny but her trying to tell me the funniest joke in the world because she knew how awful it was really made me laugh as well and the joke and again it nearly works right the joke was

in her dream that was the funniest joke in the world the joke was if there's two things in a pot of ivy they're both leaves now that that really does almost work yeah it almost works that's much better than my joke because it's almost a diss on the ivy that's all it's got right if you ask me what ivy's got and it's got two things it's leaves just got more ivy yeah oh dear so yeah that's what i've been that's what i've been thinking about what can't you joke about because you go you go hard i'm surprised that you know occasionally i i recall how edgy you are in certain contexts. I mean, like your Golden Globe stuff is just murder, right? I mean, you're murdering people in the room. But have you course corrected in recent years? Is there anything you wouldn't do that you did a few years ago? I censor things. I have a set of rules,

you know, and that's depending on the forum as well. You know, I wouldn't do a kid's party and talk about the things I talk about live, you know. In fact, I feel uncomfortable live if I'm doing something, you know, I try and make it, you know, 16 and over. So I can relax that I'm not corrupting the youth. And, you know, I play by the rules of TV and, you know, the Golden Globes is a very good example. And, you know, I play by the rules of TV and, you know, the Golden Globes is a very good example. If you think about it, that was network television at peak time, 5 p.m. that went out across America. And I didn't break any broadcast rules. So it couldn't have been that bad. How could you get away with Dame Judi Dench licking her?

I forget the word. Okay. That's a really interesting one. So what happens is, I think usually I was told by the production team of the Golden Globes, they like me doing it because I'm easy. I turn up with a scrap of paper with 20 jokes on it.

And they said, usually presenters have like a team of 20 writers for like six weeks before. And they're worried about it and they keep changing it and things happen. I turn up and go, I'm doing these. Are these all right? But what you have to do is the day before, it has to be lawyered.

And what do you call it? We call it taste and decency. You call it something else. Standard and practices or something? Yes, exactly. And what that usually means is that you can't do gross things that people might find offensive. Language, libel.

I don't want to libel anyone anyway. I think I can work around the language thing. If you can't, then there's probably something missing. Although we talk about that as well. I want to address the people that say anyone can get a laugh swearing. I want to go, all right all right okay let's sell the tickets go out go out on wembley arena just swear see how funny it is mate and usually it's uh i've done it when there's one person one lawyer just looks down and goes yeah that's all right that's all

right that's all right this time i don't know why i don't know whether it was a a reflection of the time they had they had the dream team of lawyers oh there was 17 people in the room 17 people in the room but it was you know it was exact some of the writers wanted to come down just to see what i'd done well you know you had scared the shit out of them from previous years right this is your like third year running or something yeah for fifth year it was the fifth year running over a 10-year period so i think some of them were sort of excited at the prospect, you know, because it usually always gets quite a reaction. And, you know, there were the people who write the other stuff because there's, apart from me, there's people who write

all the other intros, if you know what I mean. So there was those guys there. There was the exec producers, producers, and lots of lawyers. There was about 15 people in the room. And so tough crowd. So I did my monologue exactly as it went out. So you actually perform for that room full of lawyers? Yeah.

I mean, I'm not giving it everything. But yeah, I do it. I read the jokes as well as I can so they get them. room full of lawyers yeah i mean i'm not i'm i'm not giving it everything but yeah i do it i read the jokes as well as i can so they get them that there's you know there's there's a there's a mild performance but that's the other thing about the golden globes unlike my stand-up and obviously the the narrative stuff i do it's much more about the gag they have to work i haven't got time to work it in over six weeks that i can't it's got a it's more like a piece of you know poetry it's more like a you know a formula it's got to be fast it's got to be set up punchline laugh you know right otherwise it's it's too

it's too nebulous it won't get the laughs that you do when when you've got a worked routine so you want 20 zingers really even then i still try and do a little bit of a narrative i still try and you know the you know how i edit my jokes for that oh i've done two about him that's not fair or that looks like i've got something against that person because you know you might have three jokes about someone you go what's the best one you? So you try and keep it fair. I try and make it about the people in the room and that event. I try and make it like it couldn't be in any other place at any other time in any other room. I try and do the classic court jester of punching up. I have a go against the broadcaster, the Hollywood foreign press, and the richest, most powerful

people in the room. Right. But I mean, the place where you really just eviscerated the whole room and one person in particular was when you went after Tim Cook and Apple for running sweatshops, and they obviously cut to Tim Cook just sitting there at a banquet table. And then you pivoted to telling everyone in the room that they had no, they were in no way entitled to be sanctimonious because if ISIS created a streaming service,

they would call their agents immediately. I did that on purpose because that was the sort of theme of the year. I think I thought it was quite zeitgeisty that it felt right that people had had enough of hollywood and you know and uh and being lectured to and i i even think i think we've talked about this before that i even think trump getting in was was almost a protest vote against that authoritarian liberalism for the last 10 years so i i i sort of addressed that without again without taking a side. I don't think I took a side. But for instance, you're slamming Tim Cook there. Was that actually a

lawyered line? They knew you were going to do that? Yeah, but don't forget, I don't think I mentioned his name. I don't think I knew he was going to be there. And I certainly didn't know they were going to cut to him. So they made it. Oh, I don't't know they were going to cut to him so they made it oh I don't know who they're going to cut to I don't know I don't I don't plan that but no the the joke was real yeah so the I thought the funny joke was this is a lovely program and you know what I don't even know that that's pretty true I don't know that that that it it is up itself or pretentious or anything like that. You know, I've heard great things about it. The joke being that I decided to try and put in a list to make my case, to make the joke funnier. And of course, you know, I went after the biggest corporations.

I've got nothing against those corporations. I did check that, you know, I was factually right. And the lawyer said, yeah, that's fine. You know, they quickly Google it and say, have we we got a case here but there's no malice i haven't i haven't really got anything against anyone in the room do you know what i mean it's all for the joke if the joke was better the other way around i would have done it the other way around you know this this this this myth that every joke is a window to the comedian's true soul, I'll flip it. I'll pretend to be left wing, right wing, no wing.

I'll pretend to be anything to make that joke better. I'll decide halfway through I should take the other side because it makes the joke better. I do think you are landing a deadly earnest blow against at least Apple there. a deadly earnest blow against at least Apple there. I mean, because we were aware that they're outsourcing the production of iPhones to Foxconn, and you literally have people jumping to their deaths from the rooftops of those factories because their lives are so intolerable. I mean, that story had been in the news. And I mean, you could, in a more recent vein, make the point that, you know, Apple is evading

taxes by basically running its trillion dollar business through a post office box in Ireland, right? I mean, it's just, it's incredible. Right. But I'm sort of saying to people, I'm not your man. If you think that I'm, if I, if you think I'm Che Guevara of the, of the capitalist modern world, you're wrong. They were jokes.

And my private life might happen to align with the jokes. And, of course, you want to be on the right side unless you're saying the wrong thing for a funny reason. You know, as I say, in a lot of my stand-up, I play the right-wingot for for comic effect you know irony is a lovely it's a lovely tool to deliver the right message that sounds like the wrong message so it you know you have to really look at look at the joke and look deep and but in general i'm not i'm not this social justice warrior. For either side, it's how good is that joke?

And of course, the more truth there is to it, the more awkward it is. Or, you know, it wouldn't be fair if it wasn't true. If none of that was true, it just wouldn't be fair. Do you know what I mean? I put jokes out. I've looked into it and I go, oh, it's not true. It's an urban myth. He didn't do that or that so i don't do it because i don't i don't want to i don't want to add to the to the myth and legend when it's bad or it gives someone a bad day and even if it's a joke that there's there's a certain power particularly on that stage and um people make their own minds

up sometimes and what you're trying to do but i i read the jokes out and uh everyone was laughing thought great great uh and the head lawyer went oh just one thing he said um when you say, so this is the joke they picked up on. I start off with, we got to see James Corden as a fat pussy. He was also in the movie Cats, but no one saw that. And the reviews, oh, I saw one that said, this is the worst thing to happen to cats since dogs. Dame Judi Dench defended the movie saying it was the role she was born to play because she likes nothing better than plonking herself down on the carpet,

lifting her leg and licking her own minge. First thing he says is when you say pussy there, you mean because he was in Cats? I went, yep. I went, okay. I thought this is easy. This is easy. God. Okay. Right. Let's have some more of this then. Any other questions? Right. And then I said, is minge okay? I went, yeah, it's a funny little euphemism. It's an English word. I said, they won't even know what it means. I don't think Americans even use it. And then someone looked it up and said, oh, it says vulgar term for vagina. I went, well, of course it's a vulgar term for vagina. If you're not a doctor and you're, of course it's a vulgar term. If you want to use this vagina, it's going to be a vulgar term.

Everything's a vulgar term for vagina. Yeah. And they went, oh, it worried them. Just because they looked it up and it was like, you know, the definition vulgar. I went, right. I said, well, what can I say for vagina? And the lawyer went, you could say vagina. I went, I'm not going to say vagina. That's so much worse. But I'm actually now literally discussing the julie tench's vagina no it's gotta be it's got there's got to have some sort of funny twist to it and silliness to it otherwise it's a funny

word too yeah it means it's a funny word it's a it's a it is a euphemism it's like didn't say i didn't say it you know i thought it would be safe because americans would guess what i meant but they wouldn't be offended by it because they just had learned that word. If I make up a word for vagina, it's not offensive. If I suddenly go clabberclab, right? And you know that means vagina, you're not offended by it because you don't use it, right? So I went, oh, what can I use then? People were saying box.

I was going, I'm not going to say box. They were coming up with much worse the lawyers are pitching you everyone was chipping in okay i'm not gonna say that and so i said what about flange we say that as well and i like that word minge and flange i like those nge words because they're nice and funny and soft. And, you know, I've used them in my book, Flanimals, for kids. I say blunging, you know, and mung, fuddler.

It's a funny nge. Nge is a funny syllable. So they went, yeah, that's fine. And then someone looked it up, one of the execs, and went, oh, it means it's a slang term for something in a sink here so that i confused i went right okay right and so we went through it right and we're going through all the things i'm not going to say that that's worse i'm not going to say that that's where all this sort of stuff right uh once once said quim and i went i'm not saying quim that's really horrible i'm not gonna say i don't actually even know that word i've never heard quim yeah i think it's an old i think it's an old anglo-saxon word maybe but anyway it's a no it's our worst connotations it's like a real bro word you know it's horrible

right so i wanted a playful silly word for it right the important thing was i was talking about her being a cat and what cats do it's not you know we were getting sidetracked here right and uh so i i convinced them that i said you will not get one complaint for the word minge why would you get a comment they'd have to they know what i mean right licking their own m, but they won't know exactly what it is. They won't complain, right? And they went, okay, okay, say minge. And I went, but you won't bleep it, will you? Because I thought, if you bleep it, that sort of ruins the joke. People go, what was that? So I went, no, we won't bleep it. So we went with minge. They did bleep it anyway. They did. Oh, wow. I heard it online and it was unbleeped. it anyway. They did. Oh, wow. I heard it online and it was on bleep. Right. No, they bleeped it,

right? But I knew they would. So I pointed. So I thought I still won. Wow. It is quite a game of chess. I didn't realize that you had that going on just to get to that podium. I often have to talk people down. All my career, I've talked people down through when they're worried about something, they go talked people down through when they're worried about they go all that and what they're worried about is writing a letter and once you and very often once you explain to them what the joke is because again everyone's human and you know execs in telly are no different they they sometimes mistake the subject of a joke with the actual target and they're nervous because their job's on the line they don't want to complain they don't want to get i've never had a complaint upheld in my whole career what about personally with respect to the people you and do you know yeah no i don't want to i don't want to

uh no but i i'd uh i i'm pretty sure i give her the benefit of the doubt that she'd have a sense of humor what what what what have i what have i said that's so horrible the joke is she acted like a cat if you like you know and and cats lick their own bits it's as simple as that that's what's funny that you leave those bits out of art you know it's it's quite a it's quite a funny trope i'm sure every cartoon every adult cartoon who's shown a cat or a dog has shown them doing something that cats and dogs do, unlike, you know, children's cartoons, you know. So it was no big deal for me. But yeah, I've often had to talk people down and explain to them why it's okay.

I've said I've offered to write the letter. And sometimes they just want someone to, you know, take charge and tell them why it's okay. And sometimes they just want someone to, you know, take charge and tell them why it's okay. If memory serves, I think they cut to Tom Hanks looking shocked on your punchline there. Yeah, that became a big meme that people thought that he was disgusted enough himself. I'm not sure. I just thought he thought, cool, didn't expect that. And did a nice face when the camera came to him. Or, oh, that was a bit warm for these nice...

I don't think he was being particularly damning of me. I don't know. I have no idea. You see the cut later. I can't even remember what he actually did it to. I can't remember what bit he did it to. I think it was on your delivery of Minj. That's it. Go right to Hanks.

There's somebody in the control booth saying, Hanks has got something in his mouth. It is a good word. When I got, I remember after it, I got home and James said, oh, you should have said clunge. I thought, oh, I should have said clunge. It's perfect, clunge. Because that's the same.

It's English. But again, they would have probably looked it up and it would have said a vulgar term for bits and pieces. But I think it's nonspecific clunge as well. I think it's men and women. It's just stuff you shove into your pants whether you're a man it's that's your clunge yeah these are these are esoteric terms i i don't know half of these you guys you have you you're deep in the euphemism game over there yeah yeah yeah i'm uh i'd be

pretty good at euphemisms because um they are a fine tool to get round things. But the best thing is, you know, make them up, make a word up. Yeah. It's just as good if you really don't want to get a complaint. You know, the English are great at euphemisms and innuendo. I mean, we've got a whole strand of British comedy based on innuendo and that can be anything from bad puns to you know like that we are there's a spate of films in the sort of 60s and 70s called carry-on films where it was all that it was all matron you know and uh right um someone would come in and see

a building and go what's the unsightly erection you know it's that sort of that sort of bawdy and then there would be things like a door would shut and um you'd hear which was you know euphemistic for them yeah so we we uh and we have a thing called pantomime which i don't think you have which is a you know an old cinderella or something but done with modern jokes with you know modern sort of stars and actors and it's all it's all in jokes and puns for the parents that the kids don't get so you know quite a vaudeville are sort of on two levels you know naughty naughty innuendos that on the face of it don't go so you know yeah all right so back to the question which you've neatly evaded is there anything that you won't

do now i mean so for instance you you went after caitlin jenner hard a few years ago well did i though did i have to did i didn't know you know that's the thing because obviously the the thing that was picked up out of that was the possible transphobia but you know again i address that in humanity no my point is that i don't go out there and say i'm allowed to be transphobic i deny i am transphobic because i'm not transphobic just like i'm not racist when i joke about race it's like i, I'm not pro-cancer when I joke about cancer. See, this is the thing, people get that. They see people in the audience, they see a joke, they go, he's joking about famine, he's joking about cancer, he's joking about AIDS. He's

still, oh, that's my thing. You know, again, in humanity, I did a thing on Jimmy Fallon, a joke. I was on a flight and the announcement came over, someone is fatally allergic to nuts, so we're not handing out any nuts on this flight. And I go, it's about me being selfish. And I go, I never wanted nuts more. They are infringing on my human right to eat nuts. And I go, I wish I nuts more. They are infringing on my human right to eat nuts. And I go, I wish I'd bought my own nuts on.

The joke being that I'm so selfish that if I'd bought my own nuts on, I would eat them and this person would die. And I go, so I had to spend a whole day on that plane just because someone would die if I ate nuts. I go, to avoid that having to happen again, what I do now before I fly is I rub myself down in nuts. Right? So the joke being that I'm that mental,

I can't have nuts, but I can still kill this person. Right? So clearly a joke. And it never happened. Obviously, none of that ever happened. And I did it on Jimmy Fallon. And you'll laugh at that. The next day on Twitter, Obviously, none of that ever happened. And I did it on Jimmy Fallon and laughed at it.

The next day on Twitter, I woke up to about 10 tweets from this woman. I go, how dare you joke about food allergies? And I look, what? She goes, I've got a daughter who's faintly allergic to nuts. There's no laughing matter. It's disgusting. Do you know how many people die? And I thought, ignore it.

And then she starts atting in Jimmy Fallon and NBC. I go, ignore it. And then she said, you should never joke about food allergies. So that was a really weird. So I sent back, I joke about cancer, AIDS, famine and the Holocaust. And you're telling me I shouldn't joke about food allergies. And she sent back, yes, but the Holocaust didn't kill children. So she's so consumed with how important her thing is, which is human.

We're all like it. She can see the jokes. She can see the jokes about the Holocaust famine. She gets it. She gets the jokes. She gets the irony. But she can't see the wood for the trees because it means something to her.

So her emotions overwhelm the critical aspect of this. Why, you know, if she's had her own way, all those other jokes are okay, but not that one. And everyone's a bit like that. I've had it before. I did a routine on an early thing about Anne Frank. When I joke about, I say I've been watching a lot of Discovery Channel and the History Channel.

Ask me anything about sharks and Nazis. And I say about how amazing. I'll go, sharks are amazing. Nazis, horrible. Sharks are amazing. They can sense blood one part in a million. I do all this thing about sharks. A shark would have found Anne Frank like that. are amazing though they can they can sense blood one part in a million they do i'd always think about sharks a shark would have found anne frank like that right but the nazis so stupid like every

day they go what's that noise what's that tapping and i mime the typewriter i go nothing rats move on right and uh and anyway i do this routine that the naz can't find Anne Frank. She's up there just typing away. And I got a letter from a Jewish society in America saying, we enjoyed the show. We enjoyed your stand-up. We enjoyed everything. We were very disappointed about your jokes about Anne Frank. I sent back and said, but you know I was joking about famine and cancer.

Yeah, I went, well, I'm joking about that. I've got nothing to do with it. I think it's a terrible thing. And I explained to them, I go, you know I was joking about famine and cancer. Yeah, I went, well, I'm joking about that. I've got nothing to do with it. I think it's a terrible thing. And I explained to them, I go, you know, I joke about the terrible things. It doesn't mean I condone them. I, you know, I'm the same person as you, I think. And they went, oh, thank you for your explanation.

And it's like they never worked that out. Yeah. It's amazing that that would actually have been information to them. Exactly. But I get it. get it it's hard yeah it's hard to you know divorce yourself and what people you know i've done it on twitter before i um i've said uh what should never be joked about what should never be joked about and people it's nice normal people sincerely answer and of course every answer is funny right because they've imposed this with like one person said losing two children right that's well yes setting the bar at two rather than one yeah and like my brain was asking, has he lost two?

This is very specific. Like, he could deal with it. You know, it's mind-blowing with the confidence that they say. Losing three children is funnier. Yeah, I know. But also, between them, they listed every disease. And any specific disease is funny because they didn't list all the others. Why didn't they list all the others?

So no, there is no subject I won't joke about. There's a real irony here. I guess irony captures the shape of it. Some of the same people. So like when I think about, let's say, hiring someone and having to worry about their history of tweets, right? Is there something in this person's history that is going to blow back on me or them and become a problem? Arguably, I shouldn't think much about that. I don't tend to

think much about that. But that is something that many people think about now, whereas you could hire someone who has been convicted of murder, right? Serve their time. And you are now part of their redemption story. And the same people who would try to destroy you for having hired someone who's trailing some bad tweets would celebrate you for hiring someone who killed a family and has been brought back into some sphere of redemption and forgiveness. Well, that's the thing, isn't it? I think, same as you, I'm an atheist, but there's a couple of

things I quite like in the Bible. And one is, you know, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I think people have forgotten that, particularly on social media. I've never seen such vindictive people wanting blood and wanting to destroy people because they're on the wrong side. And again, it's tit for tat. People are doing it. Well, if you're doing that, I'm doing this, you know. And I did a tweet a couple of years ago. It was a tweet about freedom of speech. a tweet a couple of years ago it was a tweet about um freedom of speech and it was a quote from churchill and uh someone said you know he's a white supremacist and i tweeted back not in that tweet he's not not that's nothing to do with it the quote has nothing to do and it's not enough now that you can't you're if someone doesn't like you liking someone for some reason they'll find a completely different reason why you shouldn't like them

because they're not on the right side. No one looks at an argument anymore. They look at who's saying it. And if they're on the wrong side, they're discredited. There's no nuance. You know, like I did a tweet, you know, I'm a typical old-fashioned, lefty, socialist, you know, anti-racist, anti--sexist anti-homophobic kind of guy but if i tweet about freedom of speech i'm suddenly alt-right and it's true because it's odd that

that's become a right-wing thing because some people think that because free speech could allow you to say awful things, that the concept of speech is the wrong thing. That's what's weird. And the only way you fight a horrible, hateful speech is nice speech proving the hateful speech wrong. the hateful speech wrong that's you know if you curb free speech it's a fun it's an absolute fundamental right that all other rights rely on yeah and it seems odd to me that people are willing to make exceptions and they come up with strange nebulous terms like yeah not hate speech i want to go what's what what what's hate speech? It turns out that hate speech is something that anyone doesn't like, that doesn't want to be, they don't want to hear it, you know. the um the deplatforming of certain people like obviously donald trump is yeah it's the big one but before him alex jones you know i was certainly in favor of kicking alex jones off twitter and everywhere else he got kicked off of because of what he was doing i mean the fact that i mean that

to be manufacturing lies about parents who have just had their kids murdered. Well, ah, hold on. Wait a minute. Now, now we're getting into it now because there are loads of caveat to free speech already. There are loads. And I agree with them all. I think I agree with every single one of them. As I said, from libel to slander to food additives, even to watershed and, you know, private places. I agree with them all. But the one I don't agree with is someone's right to not hear something they don't like. That's what we can't do. Let's say that joke is unpleasant.

Well, it might be, but, you know, it's that thing. You shouldn't pave the jungle. You should put on better boots. You know, you can walk thing. You shouldn't pave the jungle. You should put on better boots. You know, you can walk away. You can turn it off. The best form of censorship is your right not to listen. And people get confused what freedom of speech is. They think that freedom of speech is their right to be heard and understood and taken

seriously. It's none of that. You know, it's a very delicate thing. But it is written. There are rules, and all you have to do is look them up, and then you'll know them. And we have different rules, too. I mean, you are governed by... Things are far more restrictive in the UK, and whenever I hear about these specific cases of people being brought to the attention of the police for having said something that was

offensive to public morals or whatever it gets phrased over there. It sounds frankly insane to me. Well, I mean, that's the problem with the internet, isn't it? That it's global, but rules are local. But it's been going, people muddy the water. There's one side that thinks some people want free speech so they can go around saying awful things all the time. Well, that's not true. And even if it was, let's look at that. And then the other side, they do want to say awful things all the time to annoy the other side. So it's this horrible, vicious circle. But that's why we're not in charge that's why that's why we can't decide whether someone has the death penalty or not that it goes to a court of law otherwise we do things you know if if one of our friends is murdered and they ask us on the street what should we do with

him you go kill him yeah but that's but law takes that out of it takes out this this seeing through you know anger and all those things but the deplatforming taking donald trump i'm still torn about that because i'm the same as you i'm no fan of donald trump never have been and uh but twitter saying uh he's breaking our rules is one thing. But then I think the delicate thing about that is, is don't they become a publisher as opposed to a platform? So aren't they then responsible for everyone? Can I now sue people for saying something horrible to me on Twitter? Can I sue Twitter? It's very complicated. I think there are edge cases, certainly, where it's, I mean, first of all, Twitter has for this whole time been deplatforming people for ridiculous things. So by that standard, Donald Trump should have been deplatformed years ago. I mean, he's

literally threatened nuclear war on Twitter. Every single case, you could go down a rabbit hole and argue about it forever. And that's why we have to have principle. And I think people are confused by principle. I think it's a genuinely confusing thing. I get it. I always get it. I get it when someone backs down because they lose their livelihood or their friends or their career or their family. You know, integrity can cost. That's why it's a valuable sort of asset, because integrity can cost people everything. And, you know, I get it. I get it why people are scared to say the wrong thing, because they can lose a job. And it's easy to say, well, they shouldn't. But then someone will say, what about this guy? And you go, well, that's different. That's a different principle. People, as I say,

people are confused with principle because they have a million examples. And all those examples are wrong. But on the face of it, they the same someone got fired why well people don't accept there's a sliding scale of morality i think that's the the problem there's this weird sort of binary sort that if anyone has done something wrong and you don't like them they're hitler it's it's as simple as that you know uh and you know that there's who has that got in trouble? Someone got in trouble for... What's that actress who got fired from Disney for saying conservatives are like... Gina Carano?

From The Mandalorian? She said something like conservatives are now like the Jews under Hitler or something like that, the Jews during, in the run up to the Holocaust. I actually don't like, obviously I don't support that comparison, but this idea that you can never make a comparison to Nazis or Hitler or the Holocaust. No,

this was weird because, you know, people on the other side were saying Trump's like Hitler. So surely that's, that's as bad, you know? And yeah, it is a fucking stupid thing to say also a bad ridiculous exaggeration but that's what metaphor is that's what analogy is you know that's what in poetry people say you know i would die for you and though you know they don't you know if you

start taking everything literally there is no poetry anymore or metaphor or you know exaggeration exaggeration comedy is exaggeration comedy is exaggeration so it's very difficult and sometimes it comes down that people are aren't smart you know but i think as sometimes there's malice i think people sometimes get it, but they don't care. They won't defend someone they don't like on principle because they just want to see them go down. This is all too common. The primary sin I've been seeing now for years is that the people who don't like you have added a rule to the rule book that they deem ethical, and it's obviously unethical. If they can figure out the worst possible construal of the thing you said, even when it's obviously not the intended meaning, they will seek to hold you to that and defame you

on the basis of that. So for instance, you know, in this case, Gina Caranos is being reacted to like she's completely disregarding the horror of the Holocaust and thinks that what's happening to conservatives in Hollywood right now is exactly as bad as rounding people up and putting them in the gas chambers. Now, obviously, I mean, in our defense, what she said was just lazy and idiotic, but no one actually believes she believes that, right? No, I know. But if stupid was a crime, we'd all be in jail, you know?

Yeah. But yeah, I understand there's degrees of damage and sometimes all people want to, you know, it's different with an individual shouts out of a window and when people think that they're given a platform. If she was a presenter and she was saying that on the BBC News, I think there'd be much more of a case. So, you know, why is it? Of course, yeah.

This is irresponsible. I really do think it. I'm uncomfortable talking about these issues. I'm uncomfortable talking about freedom of speech now. I'm uncomfortable because it seems so unjust. But if you defend it, you're labeled right wing. And, you know, I can say, you know, just, you know, pointing out whether someone's left or right wing doesn't win the argument. But you know what it does

to them someone someone who thinks it's fundamentally wrong and let's not forget the people on all sides think they're right they actually think they're right they they've convinced themselves that you know everything on this side is right and everything on that side is wrong or they've gone not everything on this side is right but everything on that side is wrong or they've gone and not everything on this side is right but if we can take down one of their generals we'll win the war you know some of it is tactical it is tactical and i don't want to be caught up in it i don't want to you know uh be fired or hated or for something i said that i didn't mean but but as you say it doesn't matter how clear you are.

They take it out of context and they decide your motives. But the most frightening one is, easily in 10 years time, this conversation could get us both fired. Well, I hope to have a good laugh when that happens. I'll see you in 10 years. Yeah, I'm going to have a tea now. I mean, dinner.

Tea means dinner? Well, I think it's a working class thing i used to say breakfast uh lunch and tea tea was like six o'clock but i think past people say um breakfast luncheon and dinner at eight it's funny it's as i get older uh yeah i'll eat at sort of seven i'll be in bed at half ten we watch some like european dramas and they're saying things like uh we'll see you at dinner tonight yes i'll pick you up at 10 i want to go fuck off will you i'll be in bed then pissed you're not being yeah you and you and p diddy right all right then brilliant see you later