Making Sense with Sam Harris - #58 — The Putin Question

Episode Date: December 27, 2016

Sam Harris speaks with Garry Kasparov about the problem of waning American power, the rise of Putin, the coming presidency of Donald Trump, computer chess, the future of artificial intelligence, and other topics. If the Making Sense podcast logo in your player is BLACK, you can SUBSCRIBE to gain access to all full-length episodes at samharris.org/subscribe.

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I am talking with Garry Kasparov, the former world chess champion, perhaps the most famous of modern times, and now a great critic of Vladimir Putin's Russia, and a great critic of the failures of American and European foreign policy with respect to Russia. Needless to say, this is a very timely conversation, given the man who will soon occupy the Oval Office and given the people he has appointed to advise him. And so without further preamble, I give you Gary Kasparov. I give you Gary Kasparov. I am here with Gary Kasparov. Gary, thanks for coming on the podcast.

Thanks for inviting me. Listen, it's really an honor to get to talk to you. I'm sorry we can't do it in person, but we'll be forgiving any audio hiccups here. We're doing this by Skype, and you are half a world away, and it's late at night over there. So again, thank you for taking the time to do this. Oh, okay. Thanks for more technology that we can do, you know, staying a thousand miles away from each other. Yeah. There's a lot to talk about. There are really two broad areas that I want to touch with you. The first I want to get into is politics, obviously, and the recent Russian

influence on our presidential election. The second is that we have to say something about the future of intelligent machines, because I've been talking a lot about artificial intelligence on the podcast. And while you will go down in history for many things, one of those things will be that you were the first person to be beaten by a machine in an intellectual pursuit where you were the most advanced member of our species. You will have a special place in history, even if that history is written by our robot overlords. We have to talk about that, but we will get into politics first. And you've written a fascinating book entitled Winter

Is Coming. You argue several things in the book, but generally you claim that free and open societies like our own have grown weaker, especially because we no longer think in terms of spreading our values to the rest of the world. Many people consider this a return to some kind of humility and political realism, but you consider it a failure of nerve. to some kind of humility and political realism, but you consider it a failure of nerve. And I must say, I agree with you there. Your specific claim is that while we're now facing many threats, and many which we seem ill-prepared to deal with, the worst of these threats is coming from Vladimir Putin and his current Russia. So perhaps you can just start there with your political thesis. Yes. Let's start with the title of the book, Winter's Coming. Yeah, I have to confess,

I'm a fan of Game of Thrones. I even read all the books. And I thought the title was very appropriate because it could indicate two things. One is that the history, you know, is not developed, you know, on a linear basis. And it was somehow a delayed response to Francis Fukuyama, The End of History in 1992, the bestselling book. And I have to admit that in 1992, I shared the same optimism, thinking that liberal democracy won and the rest would be just a bright future. So it's all up to us to build this future and the evil has been defeated once and for all. So I think we, you know, we yet to recognize that, you know, the evil doesn't disappear. So it probably happens in the books, in fairy tales, but in real life, the evil, you know,

could be buried temporarily under the rubble of the Berlin Wall. But, you know, at one point it sprouts out, especially if we lose our vigilance and if we turn to be complacent. especially if we lose our vigilance and if we turn to be complacent. And also the idea of the title was, again, reflecting the motto of the House of Stark in Game of Thrones, is to indicate that this is not a winter, this is not a climate change, this is not this change of temperature, but this is something that happens, again, because we are growing weaker, because we don't understand the threat that is coming to hurt us and maybe to destroy our way of life. But it depends on us whether this winter is long or short, whether it's devastating or the effect is minimal. So it's like a warning.

So that's why I thought the title would be appropriate. And, you know, to my surprise, and I publish your books and some I'm sure, you know, the publishers, they always come up with 10 different suggestions trying to shoot away your original title. I mean, this time they accepted the title, you know, recognizing that, you know, it had merits. But they were very cautious and almost rejected the subtitle. They said, oh, Vladimir Putin and the enemies of the free world. Is it about a cold war? Is this just, you know, old language that may scare people off? I said, yeah, it's a cold war because winter is coming. And now when I talk to my publisher, they're very happy that they actually agreed to have Vladimir Putin and the enemies of the free world.

I can imagine. Because when they asked me, so what about the, you know, what about advertising? They actually agreed to have Vladimir Putin and MSW Free World. I can imagine. On the title of the book. Because when they asked me, so what about the, you know, what about advertising? How are you going to do it? Because it was really, you know, just, you know, a very short cycle for writing and publishing. Me and Mick Gringert, my co-author, so we approached them in January 2015. And I said at our first meeting that I would like the book to be published in October. They asked me whether I meant October 2016. I said, no, 2015, because I hoped that the book would make difference for upcoming presidential

elections and it could help to shape debates of foreign policy between candidates from the major parties. And they were not sure that you can do it because they said, you know, we have there's no time for advertising. And I said, look, as long as you have Putin as a centerpiece of the book, he will definitely create enough, you know, conflicts, you know, to make sure that the book will be always, you know, on the front page. Again, unfortunately, this prediction was right.

And I have to say that, you know, things that I predicted in the book, you know, they turn to be even worse than I thought, because probably we live in a Putin specifically in some depth. But you use this term evil, which I want to flag for a moment, because unfortunately, this term has been really undermined in intelligent conversation. Many people just don't believe in evil. Sam, that's a great point, you know. Thank you very much for raising this point, because, you know, if we are look if we are now look at the American politics, you know, the the partisanship reached such a level where, you know, people from different from from from two major parties consider the opponents evil. So you're right. You know, the word evil, you know, has been used and overused in a political debate between people who disagree on many issues but still share the same core values. They all represent different wings of liberal democracy.

And what I wanted to emphasize in the book, and again, thanks for raising this point, is that we are being attacked by people that are, again, let me use this old cliche, the enemies of the free world, because they did not share the same values. And one of the fundamental differences between us and them is we believe in the uniqueness of human life. So the one person dead, you know, it's tragedy. For people like Putin, you know, hundreds of thousands dead is just, you know, it's a tragedy. For people like Putin, you know, hundreds of thousands dead is just, you know, it's a demonstration of strengths. It's just statistics that proves that, you know, they are on the winning streak by, you know, by spreading their influence. So we have to realize that, you know, despite all the differences between, you know,

different political groups and activists in the free world, we're still united by values that makes us very different from the other side of the world where I could apply world evil because it really threatens the way of life, the very foundation of the free society. And value of human life is one of the things that brings together Putin, ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Iranian mullahs. They could look different. But at the end of the day, they believe in something that is not modern, something that pushes us back to the past. And for those who are saying, oh, unlike Soviet Union, Putin's Russia is no longer an existential threat to the free world because it doesn't have the same ideology. My response is that probably you're right.

But the Soviet project, though it was condemned by history, it was marked by repressions, by bloodshed, by devaluation of human life. It was still a project about the future. It was a futuristic project based on wrong assumptions about human nature. That's why it failed. But it was still about the future. While today we're dealing with threats that all are looking for ideal society in a distant past. So Putin looks for a 19th century imperial politics. Irredeem Mullahs for medieval religious inquisition.

And ISIS, of course, goes all the way back to the early caliphate. But it's all about something that has no connection to the modernity. That has no connection to the modernity. And so that's why we could say that today we see the fight between modernity and archaic forces. And somehow even the last U.S. elections was also about a desperate attempt to look for an ideal model of the past. to look for an ideal model of the past. So, yeah. And that's why, again, I think it's, I thought it would be very important to have the book on time for a proper debate

about US policy since, you know, foreign policy, since whether we like it or not, United States as a leader of free world, you know, defines the way the free world moves, you know, one way or another. free world, you know, defines the way the free world moves, you know, one way or another. And unfortunately, you know, this election was about, you know, throwing mud at each other rather than talking about serious issues.

And I was quite disappointed. But still, you know, it's probably now it's now while we are digesting the surprising results of these elections, we will have time to think about the potential impact of all these important foreign policy issues to the life in the United States, especially because it becomes quite apparent that Putin's influence on the elections, even if it was not decisive, it was still a considerable factor that helped to tilt the election to the Trump side. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so before we get into Putin and the election, you've just raised this generic problem we have with dictators, dictators with regimes that fundamentally don't share our values. Just generically speaking,

how do you think we should deal with this problem? There's another paradox of modern times is that unlike 50 or 100 years ago, dictators, they have almost equal access to modern technologies. So the technological advantage was always an important factor of the superiority of the free world because we know that the free society always could mobilize brains and intellectual resources to come up with new ideas, new industries, new technologies, and always to be ahead. Even Soviet Union eventually lost the space race, though it was not Putin's Russia.

It was the country that relied on resources of Russian empire, so the generations of scientists, and it was well advanced. So it was quite a unique experiment, though a failed experiment. And it managed to put, you know, Sputnik and the man in space even ahead of the Americans. But eventually, you know, it lost this race because closed societies, they cannot compete. Even the Soviet Union failed to compete with the United States in the technological race. But today, you know, things are different because the globalization, you know, as every new technology,

every new technological process has two sides, like every coin. On one side, you know, we can spread things around, you know, we can do business, we can socialize, we can connect people. Many good things can happen by using this modern device, which is in everybody's pocket or purse. But at the same time, you know, it helps bad guys to advance their cause. So you can socialize on, you know,

on the net, but you can also build a very sophisticated terrorist network. And it does, you know, it's it. And dictators, as we can see now, they feel very comfortable with these modern devices because, you know, the Internet is not yet regulated. It's something that is, you know, it's yet to be to become part of international law. And bad guys, they don't pay attention to any rules or limitations so that they have, by definition, an upper hand in something so new and so advanced. And getting access to this is as easy, you know, as buying, you know, food in the store.

So it's quite a paradox that while we relied on Twitter, Facebook, Google, and all these new brilliant technologies invented in the free world to promote the ideas of the free world. We're now seeing the opposite effect, that the dictators, the totalitarian regimes, they are successfully using these tools, very sophisticated tools for propaganda to actually promote ideas that are that are very that are opposite to our values. Actually not even ideas, but more likely fake news. It's more like poisoning minds of people because it's almost impossible to identify what's true and what's not, since you are receiving so much information. And well-organized forces, you know, supported by massive budgets as, you know, Putin's Russia.

So the propaganda machine, you know, could have a deadly effect not only in Russia, not only in the Russian-speaking people around the world, but also on the minds of people in a free world. And this is a paradox that we have to understand and just to recognize that it's a new challenge and the free world was not ready for it. Yeah, well, one point you make in your book in several places is that we have pursued a path

of engagement with Putin in particular, but with respect to many regimes that are fundamentally illiberal, on the assumption that mere engagement, mere economic and social integration will moderate these regimes and get them to align with our interests and with the interests of sane and decent people everywhere. And you then observe how foolish this has proved to be. And it's pretty clear that some people only understand strength. And this goes back to this issue of evil, because many people have lost sight of the fact that there are people, whether it's individual dictators or even whole cultures or subcultures, certainly,

who are committed to very different aims in life.cultures, certainly, who are committed to very different aims in life. I mean, there are people who are malignantly selfish or just delusional. There are whole cultures that can be organized around delusional ideals. And I think what we're witnessing on our side, especially in recent years under Obama. And I say this as someone who's a real fan of Obama. I mean, I think he's an extremely smart and ethical and thoughtful person. And the contrast to the incoming president here is just appalling to me. But his foreign policy has been so anemic. It seems that our enemies no longer fear us and our friends really can't rely on us. And yet it's easy to see how we got here,

because there's this perception of just this absolute futility of foreign interventions because of what happened in Afghanistan and Iraq. And those are very different wars, as you know, one was probably necessary and one almost certainly wasn't, but they're both viewed as total failures. And there's this, I think, an agreement, certainly on the left and now even on what's now called the alternative right, that a sophisticated and realistic vision of America's place in the world is one where we should be more isolated, more humble, more... I mean, just any notion of us really leading the world and trying to spread our values all the way across it is some kind of unethical claim upon empire. It seems to me that we have lost our sense that there really are right answers to questions of good and evil.

There really is such a thing, potentially at least, as universal human values that we have to fight for. Let's start with this, you know, with your analysis about, you know, American intervention or isolationism as an alternative. Look, it's the 21st century. We are just about entering the year 2017. The globalized world is reality. Globalized trade is reality. No matter what president-elect says about trade and his threats to sort of to turn it around and just, you know, to go back to, you know, to protectionism. I don't believe it's going to happen because America is the most globalized economy. And when you look at the United States as a country with 330 million people, the country benefits from global trade. Yes, global trade, as in every trade, as in capitalism, some people win, some lose. But clearly, when you look at the balance, more people are on the beneficiary side. So you have to think about sort of softening the blow to others, but trying to change things, you know, and to say, oh, now we can go back.

You know, we can, you know, back. This is this is exactly what I said, you know, when I talked about, you know, different societies looking for the ideals that are a distant past. So America 2017 should look in 2030, 2040, 2050, not in 1950, 1960. There were certain things, you know, I wish country could recover from those decades. And trying to hide in a shell, you know, ignore the fact that, I mean, someone has to lead. You know, if you create vacuum, and this is, you know, this is the biggest lesson of Obama's presidency. You know, he meant well. He wanted to reach out to American enemies. And he just, you know, he did absolutely utmost to remove America,

what he thought, you know, was, you know, negative American influence in world politics, trying to sort of to work through agreements, compromises. Yeah, it could be great if he had, at the other side of the bargaining table, people, institutions, states that shared even 50 percent of his conviction about about the world, the our world should function. Unfortunately, it was not the case.

So for Putin and the like, Obama's what they saw, flexibility and weakness, was an open invitation to spread their influence. America was on retreat, thus creating vacuum, and this vacuum was filled, not by forces of peace and prosperity, but by forces of war and hatred. And again, there's no simple answer for America's role in the world. You separate wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. My problem with the war in Iraq in 2003 was that as someone who was born and raised in a communist country, I could never blame, could never condemn invasion, even invasion that led to a demise of dictatorship. People like me, we viewed the invasion as a liberation.

I understand it could open a Pandora box, we can have a big debate about it, but this is also important for people in the United States to understand the views of those who were born on the other side of our curtain. Where, you know, anything that led to the collapse of dictatorship was a good idea. So that's why, you know, we had different views about American presidents, you know, viewing those who were strongest in opposing Soviet Union and communism as our best friends. Again, I understand, you know, it's a subject for debate. as our best friends. Again, I understand, you know, it's a subject for debate.

But let's, you know, move away from 2003, again, agreeing that, you know, we may disagree on that and go to 2009. And this is, you know, something that Obama's decision, you know, to follow. By the way, that was a Bush plan, you know, to eventually move troops out of Iraq. So when in 2009, Obama looked at the global map, I believe he thought that it was a good moment for America to exercise positive influence, soft power, friendship to even to the nations that wish America ill, and to extend the olive branch to everyone, including Cuba and North Korea. Now, the failure, in my view, is based on the fact that if you play the game, you know, chess,

and if you believe that you made a mistake a few moves ago, the biggest mistake, you know, would be to try to sort of go back and to change things because you're already having a certain situation at the board. And that's what happened with Iraq in 2009, when Obama tried to sort of rectify mistakes made by the previous administration, without recognizing that it's already a new game. America was already there. And by trying to get out, led to what we are seeing these days in the Middle East. We all know where the road paved with good intentions leads. In this case, it led to Aleppo genocide.

So it is very important that we learn from these lessons because it's now what follows Obama is much more cynical approach. So if Obama wanted to cut these deals, you know, out of his ideological beliefs that the world should change, now you may have an administration that would like to cut these deals, you know, out of very pragmatic assumptions that, you know, that could benefit people who are close to the administration. So ironically, they could be pursuing the same goals,

but for very different,. And I think that, you know, America, as long as, you know, it remains the most powerful economy and the most powerful military force in the world, it's due to remain the leader of the free world, thus, you, thus carrying these responsibilities for protecting the world order from different attempts to destroy it. Because if America doesn't do anything, then what's going to happen to NATO? What's going to happen to European security? And now we already saw the result in Crimea, and definitely Putin is not going to stop in Crimea. And he's now, you know, willing to have, you know, a great bargain with Trump about dividing the world and eliminating all security institutions that are standing on his way to global dominance. So I think it's very important that America, you know, recovers its, you know, its integrity as a global power and will come up with a view of the foreign policy, which is, by the way, you saw it in these elections, is somehow extension of domestic policy or other

way around. And to stop, you know, changing these policies, you know, from elections to elections. Because if from Harry Truman to Ronald Reagan, and that's what I argued in the book, American foreign policy was quite consistent. There were some modifications, but basically all presidents, Democrats and Republicans, they knew what was America's role in the world. And again, disagreements that were within the reach. Now, since 1991, the collapse of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War, so we saw American foreign policy working more like pendulum, switching from one side to another. You have Clinton, who did little, then W, who did too much, then Obama, who did almost nothing. And then now it goes to Trump, who can do whatever.

Nobody can predict. And it's quite interesting that when you look at the old presidents, you know, were elected, you know, since the collapse of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War in the last 25 years, I think it's the first time in American history that the four presidents that were elected, Clinton, Bush, Obama, and Trump, they had no foreign policy expertise and very little sort of national exposure. Okay, Trump had it, but it's not political. So it's interesting that, you know, it seems as if America is looking for something else, you know, so the country, you know, didn't want to hear about big problems and wanted just to, you know, have a comfortable life. Let's enjoy. And now we reached a point, you know, after these elections that, you know, it's time to define America's role in the world. And I don't believe that the United States has a chance

to stay away and just to isolate since, you know, the world, you know, has changed and very much under American influence. And walking away means that, you know, you will have to come back. But when it happens, it will be already under the terms of your enemies. Yeah. That final point is really worth reflecting on because to retreat and to ignore the world's problems when we alone among nations have this disproportionate potential influence to let genocides happen, you know, especially in the case of, you know, we draw a red line and our bluff gets called and then we do

nothing, that kind of weakness is really provocative. And as you say, then once we're dragged back into involvement, it's on the terms that are now on the ground. The pieces on the board, to use your analogy, have moved and we're in a worse position. And so let's talk about the position we're in with respect to Putin at this point, because it seems to me, and you make this point as well, that he's running a very clever dictatorship. It's a dictatorship that, for those who don't want to see it as one, seems to be justified by a high level of support. He holds elections. And he's managed to sanitize his reputation by being taken seriously as a statesman on the world stage. And again, you point this out many times that American, many American and European administrations are

culpable for this. So this policy of engagement with Putin has given him a free pass to do more or less whatever he's wanted. And of course, this all has been facilitated by a rise in oil prices. But Putin seems like quite a sinister figure. How bad is he? It's very bad, and he's getting worse. But, you know, we have to give him credit. And you're right, you know, pointing out at his strengths and his ability to manipulate both domestically and internationally. He started in, you know, in the beginning of this century as a president of Russia. So whether he had an idea of turning his rule into dictatorship, I don't know.

But he was an importantist, and he suddenly saw big opportunities. Oil prices were rising, so giving him an unlimited amount of cash. And also, he just recognized that there was, you know, a limited amount of cash. And also he just recognized that there was a lot of goodwill on the on the other side. So he could play games with with George W. Bush. It was an amazing, you know, psychological game when they met in June 2001. And Putin told him the story about, cross while being in a KGB school because he was baptized by his grandmother or whatever. I mean, obviously, it's a fake story, but he made – it was a perfect calculation.

For George W., that was a story that almost caused him to cry because it was about religion. So just about Putin's connection to religion. And he built a very strong psychological contact with George W., who, after his meeting, said that he looked into Putin's eyes and saw his soul. So that was a big victory. He looked in Putin's eyes and saw his soul. So that was a big victory. And Putin strengthened his ties with George W. by being the first leader calling after 9-11 immediately, recognizing that that was a moment, you know, where he could, you know, have a Bush, you know, on his side for many years to come.

So he was very good in building these relations and looking for friends because at that time he needed friendship from the Western leaders to neutralize any opposition in Russia. And I remember in 2006 when Putin was hosting the G8 meeting in St. Petersburg, and I was always reluctant to call it G8 because G7 stood for seven great industrial democracies and Russia was neither democracy nor industrial power. But Putin was there. Actually, Yeltsin was the first one to be invited, like an advance payment for immature Russian democracy. And Putin fully capitalized on his position of being one of the members of G8. And it was his turn in 2006 to host it. And it was a phenomenal PR success for Putin because Russian television, you know, was showing these meetings from every angle. And, you know, they say that, you know, picture is more powerful than a thousand words, but Putin had both the picture and a thousand words.

And how could people like myself or late Boris Demtsov, how could we convince even liberal minded Russians that Putin was not a Democrat? Putin was not recognized as a democratic elected leader, while every other leader of the free world was there to greet him as one of the equals. So Putin, by using this game, Putin totally neutralized opposition in Russia, and as you pointed out, created an image of a ruler that was not probably a true Democrat, but he was not one to fear, not one who could destroy democratic institutions. And that's why his decision to stay behind Medvedev when he followed the Constitution,

he had to step down, but he stayed as a prime minister and we all in Russia knew that he was a puppet master who was pulling the strings. It caused some kind of an illusion for Europe and for the United States, where politicians, political leaders believed that they could play Medvedev against Putin and eventually they could see some kind of peaceful transition of Russia from Putin's, as they thought, slightly authoritarian regime into something more democratic, not recognizing that Putin was buying time to strengthen his grip on power and eventually he would come back as the all-powerful dictator, as it happened in 2012.

And then as every dictator, you know, he had to change gears because if he needed friends in the beginning of his rule, eventually he needed enemies because at a certain time, he realized that all economic resources that could generate steady growth of Russian GDP and more important, steady improvement of leading standards for the Russians, steady improvement of leading standards for the Russians. These resources have been wiped out by the lower oil prices and also by the aging infrastructure and by endemic corruption. So economy was no longer serving Putin, and he needed something else to legitimize his endless stay in power. And as every dictator, he turned for foreign aggression. As we warned from the beginning, saying Putin was our problem, eventually it will be everybody's problem, because this is the way dictatorship

works. And it was amazing that Americans and Europeans didn't want to see the rise of anti-American, anti-Western propaganda on Russian television. And since 2012, it became, you know, a staple of Putin's domestic propaganda to blast America for anything that happens in the world and to present Russia as the sort of besieged fortress of good surrounded by global evil. By the way, they use this language. This is the language used by Russia. Right, right. Is it true that the level of anti-Americanism in Russia now is the worst it's ever been? Look, maybe it was worse in the 40s and the 50s. I don't know. But it's definitely the worst in my lifetime. And I can rely on my mother's comments. She's turning 80 next March. So she was born under Stalin. And of course, you know, propaganda machine was, you know, different because, you know,

there was no television. There was only radio and then, you know, primitive TV. So it's hard to compare to these days. But she said that, you know, by listening to Russian media today, she couldn't help but thinking that while Soviet propaganda was very intense and it was brainwashing, but it was still about bright future. So Soviet propaganda tried to present something that is more positive, something futuristic that could make a great deal of difference for everybody. So they talked about, of course, it was false talk, but still they talked about communist brotherhood, generations ahead of us, and about competition between socialism and capitalism, and about socialism gaining ground. So there was some kind of a competition about fighting for

the better future of humanity. Putin's propaganda is more like cult of death. So Russia has no allies. It's all about, you know, Putin defending Russia against global evil. It's, you know, we all maybe have to die, you know, but it's the language it's, the language is so poisoning. And my mother says it's, it's, it's depressing. It is so depressing. And, you know, because of modern technology, it comes, you know, as we say in Russia, from every kettle. So it's from everywhere. So, and it's 24 seven and, uh, and these propaganda, which, you know, just, it's, it's follows oral rules that, you know, it should be total lie. So it's not just, you know, you know, just it's it's follows oral rules that, you know, it should be total lie. So it's not just, you know, you know, some true, some lies. But it's basically, you know, it's as white as black, you know, war is peace, you know, freedom of slavery.

So it's totally reversing the facts. And if it's so intense as it is now, you know, it works. As it is now, you know, it works and it works way beyond Russia now because we could see polls in some European countries or people, you know, ordinary people in these countries. They are just buying the Putin versions of the events in Ukraine, in the Middle East and elsewhere. What's the significance of his being a former KGB figure? President Bush Sr. ran the CIA, and I've never heard it said of him that that made him somehow nefarious by definition. Obviously, there's a false moral equivalence here, but this is the way many people would think about it.

How do you think about his KGB past? Yeah, but you mentioned his false moral equivalence. think about his KGB past? Yeah, but you mentioned his false moral equivalence. I mean, KGB is an organization that, you know, that I believe, you know, was criminal from day one. It was built by Lenin and his associates, you know, to destroy whatever was left of freedom in Russia. And it had a history of going after political opponents of the regime. And it's one of the most nefarious acronyms in the Soviet history, KGB. So these three letters. And Putin in 1999, while being still a prime minister, when he spoke at the meeting of KGB officers at the headquarter in Lubyanka Square, he said once KGB is always KGB.

And he couldn't say it's better. It's a recognition of the fact that he never betrayed his organization. He never betrayed his organization. And he always believed that they had some kind of rights to rule the country and just to – basically, they were always above the law. So if we are talking about Bush 41, who was head of CIA, he was still a civilian. And even as a head of CIA, he knew that he was under some kind of supervision of the legislation and the president. So there were many things that, and still hopefully there in America, that guarantee checks and balances.

So you can hardly imagine one institution in the United States going just totally wild. So it's probably, we'll still have to see the resilience of US democracy in the years to come. But in the Soviet Union, it was the opposite. So the KGB was always above the law. So it's this whole idea that the organization was the law itself. And while today we're looking at Putin's actions, I always warn people that you should remember about his true nature. He's a KGB guy. So that's why while he's not alien to the idea of using force, he can decimate cities. He can order carpet bombing.

He can order genocide. But at the same time, he always prefers to deal with more clandestine methods. So just looking for kind of hybrid wars and every opportunity to buy favors, to blackmail people, to have a covert operation. And the fact is that his reputation is still quite sanitized, as you just said a few minutes ago, worldwide, is a result of these operations that have been heavily funded by Putin and, you know, well designed, adjusting to the certain specifics of different countries and regions. Do you think there's any truth to the rumor that he might be the richest person on Earth at this moment?

I think we should, you know, we should first agree on the definition of the richest person on Earth. Because, you know, if you... If you'd like to continue listening to this conversation, you'll need to subscribe at SamHarris.org. Once you do, you'll get access to all full-length episodes of the Making Sense podcast, along with other subscriber-only content,

including bonus episodes and AMAs and the conversations I've been having on the Waking Up app. The Making Sense podcast is ad-free and relies entirely on listener support. And you can subscribe now at SamHarris.org.