Marketing Happy Hour - Brand Photoshoots 101: What You Need to Know | Photographer + Creative Amie Santavicca

Episode Date: August 11, 2022

This week on the Marketing Happy Hour podcast, Erica sits down in person with a close friend and photographer, Amie Santavicca. Amie is a seasoned fashion lifestyle and advertising creative photographer with experience collaborating with Not Your Mother's Haircare, Ashley Furniture, Edible Magazines, and more. In her conversation with Erica, she shares how brands can effectively plan the creative direction for their shoots and work more efficiently with photographers. She also dives into the topic of usage rights and how photographers price their services, so you know what to expect next time you hire someone for a shoot. Grab a drink and listen in to this week's Marketing Happy Hour conversation! ----- Other episodes you'll enjoy if you enjoyed Amie's episode: Managing Social at a Startup? Listen to This! | Danielle Vito of AvantStay Top Tips for Creatives | Lisa Meyer of Beekman 1802 PR 101: Set Yourself Apart | Alice Hampton of ACP Management ____ Say hi! DM us on Instagram and share your favorite moments from this episode - we can't wait to hear from you!  Please also consider rating the show and leaving a review, as that helps us tremendously as we move forward in this Marketing Happy Hour journey and create more content for all of you. NEW: Check out our website! NEW: Join our email list! Follow Amie on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/amiesanta/ Visit Amie's Portfolio: http://www.amiesantavicca.com/ Check out Amie's recent work for WSJ: https://www.wsj.com/articles/tampa-fl-new-development-11657728015?page=1  Follow MHH on Instagram: https://instagram.com/marketinghappyhr Follow MHH on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/marketing-happy-hour/ Subscribe to our LinkedIn newsletter, Marketing Happy Hour Weekly: https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/marketing-happy-hour-weekly-6950530577867427840/ Join our Marketing Happy Hour Insiders LinkedIn Group: https://www.linkedin.com/groups/9238088/

Hey there, welcome to the Marketing Happy Hour podcast, where each week we're learning career-defining advice, powerful social media strategies, unique creative tips, groundbreaking influencer marketing tactics, and more from marketing experts that represent some of the world's leading brands. Let's dive in. Grab a drink and join your hosts, Cassie and Erica, for this week's episode. This week, Erica is speaking with our friend and very talented photographer, Amy Santavica. Amy has collaborated with Not Your Mother's Hair Care, Ashley Home Store, and most recently, The Wall Street Journal to develop beautiful photography campaigns.

In this episode, Amy breaks down both the creative and technology side of photography and how brands can effectively work with photographers. She shares how to brainstorm for a shoot, but also how to structure your contracts to get the most out of the content and your relationship with that client. As you work with photographers now or plan to in the future, make sure to keep these tips handy

so you can build a mutually beneficial relationship with those photographers. Okay, let's get into this interview. It's a fun one, so make sure to grab your favorite drink and get ready to dive in. Hey, Amy, how are you? I'm good, Erica. How are you? I'm doing well. Amy is here with me in person. We're at my apartment. I'm so excited that you're on the podcast this week because we've been trying to set this up for a while. I've known her since 2018, and in that time, I've seen her do so many incredible things like shoot for the Wall Street Journal, a hair care brand that I used to work for, and Ashley Furniture, among so many other amazing brands and individuals.

And I'm so excited to dive into the world of photography with you. But before we jump in, I do have an important question for you that we ask all of our guests. and individuals. And I'm so excited to dive into the world of photography with you. But before we jump in, I do have an important question for you that we ask all of our guests. What is in your glass tonight? This is marketing happy hour after all. So in my glass tonight is a, I guess you can consider it a cocktail. Yes. I mean, I guess it's mixed. So it is Wiggle Distillery, one of their gins that they make. I think it's the Dutch gin with a grapefruit mixer.

And what was the brand of that? Betty Buzz. Betty Buzz. It's Blake Lively's brand of cocktail mixers. Yeah. Is it good? I haven't tried it yet. The whole thing is really good.

I'm not too much of a sweet drinker. Is it sweet? No. No, no, no. And I was scared about that yeah it's not um it's very nice very uh even keeled love that that makes sense yeah yeah yeah it does tastes delicious what about you i have a so it's called play nice times metric um it's from foxtail market in chic. They have their own vodka brand and they mixed

it with some local coffee to create a espresso martini. And it's actually very good. I highly recommend I think they do offer like shipping online. So look into that if you're not in Chicago, but I picked mine up in Chicago, which was super fun. It smells good. It's very good. Are you not an espresso? Oh, well then why didn't you let me go? I don't know. This was drinking this drink. Okay. Well also just like side thing, cause I'm going to talk about it now, but Wiggle is a Pittsburgh distillery and I am from Pittsburgh. And you brought that back for me.

And I'm drinking, I think I've drank of it. It's so funny. She's like, you would love this. I don't actually think I've had it yet. I don't think you've had it. The bottle's almost gone. It's very good. Not just from today. We've hung out several times where this bottle of gin has been present at my apartment, but I don't think I've had that much. No, it's very delicious. It's a very good distillery. If you're ever in Pittsburgh, highly recommend. If you're not in Pittsburgh, I think they deliver all to Pennsylvania and New York. So there's that at least. Incredible. I like how we're kind of diversifying where we're helping people out. Absolutely. Yeah. Not just Florida, not just

Michigan or wherever. I don't know, New York? Where? Wherever I'm from. All right, Amy. Well, let's dive in. I'd love for our listeners to hear a little bit more about your background. I know a lot of it, but I know that they don't. So how did you get your start in photography? What have been some of your favorite projects? And then what are you focused on now? So I was joking about this before, but my background is just like everybody else's background in photography. I started shooting bands and things like that in high school. My friends skateboarding and yeah, so it kind of just like started with some friends and people who were pretty who wanted to be in front of the camera in high school. I just kind of went from there. I ended up going to school at the Art Institute of Pittsburgh, got a bachelor's from there, moved to Cincinnati for five years, shot there, worked for some like really cool photographers there and then moved to Tampa

and I've been freelancing full time like for myself for six years now. That's awesome. That's really cool. What are some of your favorite projects that you've worked on? Honestly, it's so, feels really silly, but like the number one that's coming to my head at the moment is the Wall Street Journal, which is a very recent project, but there was a dog on set and that is-

You're like, that makes it. Honestly though, I got to hold the dog while shooting like if I didn't want the dog for a shot I got to hold it and that's great um but otherwise I got to do the farewell photos for one of my favorite bands um Me Without You and that is like a highlight of my career for sure because I'm a massive fan. So that is really, really cool. We were just talking about, they had one of their last shows in Pittsburgh and you got to go and it was incredible. That's really, really cool to see that come full circle. I love it. I love it. Well, a lot of our marketing happy hour listeners work on a creative or social team within a brand.

So I know you've shot with a few brands in your past a few a lot what are your top tips for marketing teams looking to work with a photographer for brand shoots I think the first thing that's so important is know your budget and reach out to a photographer who's appropriate inside your budget I don't mean that in any disrespect at all, but I do think a lot of people will reach out to a photographer who is of a higher caliber with a very low budget, and they just don't have the time for something like that. So I think that's something that's really important. And then another thing is really knowing the concept or at least the art direction or something of what you're trying to do. Because having some sort of direction and idea of what's wanting to be shot is important.

And yeah, yes, of course, a photographer can help you work that out. But I just think having the most clear minded like plan and idea is the best way to like start a project so everybody is on you know they're on the same page know what they're working on and then good ideas can come from there yeah absolutely do you work a lot with um like the process is it they give you a creative brief and you kind of go from there or uh it just depends so like every company's different some companies come to me with like uh 10 concepts and we are shooting this exact concept of each one of these and that is it and i you know do the estimate based on that um but then there's other companies who come to me and

they're like hey we really like this brand we don't really know what we want we just know we need like 30 images and then i kind of get some more questions out of them and then go from there It just really depends and I understand totally if you don't have like a dead set idea of what you want. I get it but just kind of know that not all photographers are going to be Interested in helping you concept. Yeah, I am somebody who enjoys that, so great for me, but that's not everybody. It's rare, definitely. Yeah, you gotta kinda look for somebody

maybe who has art direction in their experience. Yeah, absolutely. Do you have any tips for maybe a brand that has a smaller budget for a photographer? So let's say they don't have the budget to bring on like a very experienced photographer that does have that art direction background um what are some tips there sure um you can get good photography at any budget that is a hundred percent realistic um so don't think that oh god i only have like a 500 budget i'm not going

to get good photos that's not true um you just have to be more picky and more critical and understand what you're gonna get um so like one of the things i would say is when reaching out be upfront about what you know your budget is and what the constraints are surrounding that budget, there's no reason to hide it. We all know that we are all working to make money. We're just working in the professions we enjoy to make money. So don't be shy or weird about talking about money at forefront, because that's really, really important.

So another piece of advice I would say is if you don't have a high budget, trying to find somebody who will mutually benefit from the work. So finding somebody who you might like a little bit of their portfolio, or maybe they don't really have a portfolio, but they wanna get into the industry

and you might be their way to do that. So, you know, some photographers will be able to work at a smaller budget because they just need the portfolio work. But just making sure no matter what kind of collaboration you're going to do, everybody is mutually benefited. That is what matters the most. Whether it's high budget, medium budget, low budget, that's the most important thing. And everybody's getting what they want. Yeah, absolutely absolutely so when setting up a shoot what are some of the most important elements and how does that differ from a shoot with a model to

a product shoe or beyond so when setting up a shoot um it really just depends on the shoot itself but um the most important elements would obviously be having clear art direction clear concepts and um clear delivery timelines and estimates and deliverables just basically everybody is on the exact same page about everything um and when it comes to shooting with a model versus a product and all of that you just need to know what the cost is of everything that's going to happen sure like you know with a model if you have a shoot with a model you're gonna have hair makeup wardrobe um props more than likely right um how many different backgrounds uh depending on how big budget the shoot is you you're going to have multiple different sets.

From there, how many different, you know, PAs and gaffers and people doing lighting and- Hang on, hang on. What's a gaffer? Oh God. Okay. So here's what sucks. And I want this to be kept in this podcast. I love it. So there's a bunch of different terms for a bunch of different things that could be kind of interchangeable but from my understanding a gaffer is somebody who is helping with the lighting of a set whether that is a film or a photography set okay so like you have a production assistant like a pa who's kind of like a runaround can do kind of anything. Um, you have a gaffer who's

going to be the one assisting on the lighting of the set specifically. They're not getting the coffee. They're doing lighting. They're gonna, you know, do anything electrical, um, working with the stands, you know, that kind of stuff. Um, yeah, there's, that's a whole other thing to dive down. I love it. Uh, depending on the, um, the budget of your shoot and just the size of your production, you could have a lot of different titles that you've never heard of. Yeah. My favorite is Best Boy. Best Boy. Oh my gosh.

Wow. Okay. What does that mean? I still don't know, but I'm pretty sure Best best boy has to do with lighting but it's my favorite I actually made a resume for one of my friends who's done like a lot of different things on productions and so we just put his title as best oh my gosh wow technically probably wasn't correct but it's okay I'm just gonna like change my title to best gal yeah and just like go with it that's so cute it's so cute. It's so cute. Just

yeah. Next time you watch a movie, look for the best boy. You know what? I think I've seen that. And I've, I've been like, Oh, was that like a character in the, in the movie? No, it's a, it's a film term. Yeah. Wow. Okay. I didn't know that. And I love that. And I'm probably going to be seeing it everywhere. Yeah. I love it. Amy, you talked about this a little bit, but what do you think is important for brands to budget for when working for a photographer? Obviously you have your day rates, but there's also so many other things to account for, like the people on set that you were talking about or props or, you know, individual photo costs or usage. That's a big one. So I love your insight on that. So when you are reaching out to a photographer to set up a shoot,

something that you need to think about is all of the different costs involved. So most photographers are going to estimate your project on a day rate, which is a quarter day rate, half day rate or full day rate. So day rate plus usage plus expenses. So I'll touch on expenses first because that's the easier one to understand. So expenses are what's going to be, like I was saying before, like any crew that's, you know, food on set that is props, wardrobe, all of that kind of stuff. Day rate is how much it costs for the photographer to show up with a camera um and that is it most photographers actually charge equipment fees as well um

but it just depends on what kind of level you're working out with that um and then as for usage this is something that a lot of people don't really understand. It's huge. It's really big. So if you're somebody who is just using your images for organic social media, you are probably going to be able to go with a lower usage fee. Don't get me wrong. It might still be bigger than what you're thinking but um it's it isn't gonna be massive you start to get into heftier fees when you hit like paid social emailers billboard you know print ads in store you know in store display

of course that's a very very big one and yeah so kind of understanding where you're gonna be using the photos and then another thing that's a very, very big one. Um, and yeah, so kind of understanding where you're going to be using the photos. And then another thing that's really important to understand is how long are you going to use the photos? Because people think that, um, they're going to, they want these photos to be able to be used forever. So perpetuity is exactly what they need because they're going to use these forever, but then they get the fee that the photographer charges for perpetuity is exactly what they need because they're going to use these forever. But then they get the fee that the photographer charges for perpetuity and they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's so high. And it's like, well, you're probably going to change your branding in three years down the line. Your logo might change five years down the line. You know, this product might not exist a year from now. Right. So perpetuity doesn't really make sense for everybody. Um,

what I recommend in, when you're trying to figure out what you're doing is go to the photographer, knowing where you're going to use the photos and for how long, and be upfront about that in the beginning, because the thing is, if you need an extension on the usage, you can get get that you can negotiate that later you don't need to worry about that up front so if you have a campaign that you want to shoot say you are a t-shirt brand and you need photos for your website you need some photos for paid social organic social and let's just say a billboard you're going to get a fee that covers the usage fee is going to cover all of those things and You're going to get a fee that covers the usage fee is going to cover

all of those things. And you're going to tell that photographer, well, the billboard is going to be up for a year, uh, paid social and organic social are kind of technically forever. So those would be perpetuity and just kind of knowing that before you can get into it. Um, and then on your website, you're going to have it up for three years you're gonna have a different fee for each item they might lump it they might not it just depends on the photographer but it's just kind of going into the shoot understand or into the estimate understanding that um there are a lot more fees involved than just having somebody show up with a camera on set yeah uh because that's something a lot of people are not used to.

Yeah. I think that's huge. Like I've run into that too where people don't understand that. And even in like the, this is totally unrelated to photography specifically, but even in an influencer marketing realm, that's a huge thing too is usage because people will use those images from an influencer or UGC or something in perpetuity. And that's not necessarily what they have rights to. So definitely an interesting perspective. And I love that you shared that because a lot of people don't know that. Well, and one thing too

is, you know, you know, it's going to be a good photographer that you're working with, no matter what kind of level they are, if you a contract involved so no matter you know to protect you to protect them should always have a contract always have a contract involved if there's one piece of advice i can leave you with i don't care about anything else you might do have a contract that is solid and looked over maybe slightly by somebody who you trust lawyer friend wise yeah um because it'll help everybody in the you know end game um the last thing you want to deal with is a dmca takedown photographers don't want to dish them out and you don't want to deal with a photographer coming at you asking you to take down those photos because you're not actually licensed to them. Oh no. Yeah. Okay. What is it that you just said? DMCA. DMCA.

I could not tell you what that is. Okay. I would assume it's something copyright association. Okay. Digital something. Media. Media copyright association. We're just making stuff up over here. We just like to make up abbreviations. Okay. That's fine. Following up on that point too, Amy, what about revisions or edits? I know some photographers will allow for maybe one round of edits or revisions. What do you do? So whenever I am bidding on a shoot, my line item on the actual estimate says, so like retouching at this much per photo and it says in parentheses includes one revision um so for me i just do one revision that that's included under the retouching

fee um per photo but you know it just really depends on photographer um i think the best way to avoid any of that is to be clear about what you want um before you even shoot making sure the photographer knows what you're looking for what kind of lighting you're looking for what kind of um you know some things are or i should say a lot of things are done remotely nowadays so you might send somebody some um products to shoot which this happens to me all the time you so you might send somebody some products to shoot which this happens to me all the time you know somebody will send me some products to shoot and i go over with the most fine tooth comb to make sure that i'm getting exactly the images that you want maybe not everybody does that and that's okay but making sure on your end that you are telling the

person exactly what you want. So then it, you know, just clear communication really is, I guess, the theme of today. I love it. I love it. I think if you took a word count of all the words that we've said, I think clear is probably the number one. Be clear. Yeah. Just be clear about what you want. Be clear of your intent on where the photos are going. And then, you know, keep keep in mind too with retouching for social media the photo is two inches by two inches big you don't need that to be you know airbrushed yeah it doesn't need to be anything crazy so you might be able to save some money

on retouching if they know it's just for social but if you're gonna be using it for a billboard you're gonna want to make sure every single thing is out of there. Every flaw is gone because it's blown up. So kind of just knowing where you're using the images is going to help you be able to tell the photographer what you need in that realm. Definitely. What about licensing and copyright? I know we touched on it a little bit, but would love to hear just your thoughts on that when it comes to working with a photographer and maybe some missteps you've seen people do in that area. My favorite misstep is the very common.

No one ever says my favorite misstep. So I love this. I say this so sarcastically. says my favorite misstep so i love this i can't wait to hear my my favorite misstep is whenever i'm scrolling on instagram and i get like on the explore page or i don't know just some sort of targeted thing and it's one of my photos oh no i'm like oh that's not supposed to be there who are you why are you using this um i'll even say like when I did like just recently with like WSJ, some like random realtors. Love how casual she was just like WSJ. It's like a big deal.

Wall Street Journal. Okay. Anyway, continue. Now I'm like all blushing. My face is the color of my grapefruit drink over here now. Love it. But I was, I got tagged. At least they tagged me.

These like realtors like tagged me in these images that I shot. And I was like, oh, you guys have nothing to do with these images. Yeah. You, where did you get these first off? Second, why do you think you can post these to promote your business um so i think the best way to go about this question is to say the the best the best thing to think about when you're about to post an image do you have permission to post this yeah yeah it's very important it's really important i mean there are photographers who are like you just got

a message and be like hey can I post this I'll tag you and you say yeah great yeah but then there are photographers who are like hey can I post this and the photographer is gonna say yeah it's gonna be 500 bucks right and you say okay great or oh we can't do never mind and then that's it um so yeah just kind of keeping that in mind. Yeah, that's totally fair. It's important. And I mean, you know, copyright and I mean, copyright is all of Sagaver has. Yeah, it's our bread and butter is the fact that we can license these images out. Like I mean, especially when you shoot for something like editorial, what you're going

to do is you shoot the editorial, those images get used for the magazine publication of any sort and then you're able to license those images out elsewhere um that's how you make the majority of your money on that shoot it's not from the shoot itself um with brand it's a little bit different you guys there's something called um oh my god uh exclusivity um so then there's exclusivity when it comes to brands so like if i'm shooting for let's say like a makeup company i'm not going to be licensing you know this specific product out for something else so i need to make the majority of my money from the actual shoot um so yeah it's just kind of i don't know just understanding there's a lot more involved

yeah it's really all it comes down to yeah and i think developing a relationship with the photographer that you're working with is really important and understanding like their goals and as well as your goals and working together on that is something huge and i think that's something that you and i when we've worked together in the past have been able to like align on stuff like that which is really really great um okay shifting gears just a little bit what are your ultimate career goals and where do you see yourself in five years or so which is so funny because we were just talking for like hours about all the possibilities in your future

my future everybody's future right now um but just a little insight to how you're feeling. So we were joking about this earlier. I, as most people do or don't, I do not know where I see myself in five years or I don't really have like a five-year goal or plan. That's totally okay. Yeah, totally okay. I think the biggest thing is I would like to just continue to work with clients that I enjoy and work with brands that I enjoy and continue just kind of doing the things that I enjoy. Um, I've always said like, you know, being happy is first and foremost. Um, and if you're not happy, then figure out what is going to make you happy and do that thing. Uh, cause it's the most important. So yeah, that's kind of really where I'm at. I mean, like, you mean like you know don't be wrong like maybe 10 years down the line i would love to be like an art director at

like a cool company or director of photography at like you know like a cool music label or something but no i mean otherwise i don't really have like a specific goal i just want to continue working with good clients and you know i think i might have said this before but i have worked with a lot of wonderful clients i haven't really had any bad clients and yeah I just hope it continues knock on wood love that love that also that's definitely not wood it's wood grain it's fine she doesn't really have wood in here so I'll just go home and knock on a bunch of wood it's fine love that yeah I always say like as long as you're happy and healthy and people around you are happy and healthy, like that's success to me. And I think that's important when you move

forward in your career is just taking that into consideration. A lot of us are in the stage where we're like, I don't even know if I like what I'm doing. You know what I mean? So it's just a matter of taking inventory of like your happiness almost. I mean, honestly, like me and my partner daily, we'll be like, do we still enjoy our career? Yeah. Are we doing this because this is what we know? Or are we doing this because we enjoy it nine times out of 10? It's because we enjoy it. But then there is that one out of 10 where we're like, wait, wait.

Yeah. Daily. I think about, Oh, what if I just like became a barista or opened my own coffee shop? I am so good at bartending. I can just go back to bartending. I mean, any of my ex employers who were bartending people, they were like, no, she's not. She's not that great. Don't take her word for it. I'm just kidding. Love that. Love that. Well, Amy, thank you so much for joining us. I'm so happy that we were able to finally do this. And it's so funny too, because no one knows the inside scoop on our podcast here, but we actually just ran out and we did this entire ending and it was so good. And now we have to redo it because apparently you can only record up to 30 minutes on the platform

we use, but just wanted to say you're amazing and i've always loved working with you and following along with everything that you do and we love to ask this question on marketing happy hour is there anything you know now that you wish you knew when you started your career um two things come to mind the first being know your worth uh that is the most important thing going forward in any career i don't care what you're doing it know your worth um and i'm not saying monetarily i'm saying like know what your time is worth know you know what your emotional state is worth um it's not worth risking your uh and i shouldn't say risking sacrificing your well-being for a company a brand a client yourself if you're not you know feeling good about it um so yeah know your worth

and know what your time is is worth um and then two would be that imposter syndrome is very very very real um i could get you, I could be shooting a cover of Vogue and I will still feel like I have not made it. No matter what you're doing, you're going to feel it more than likely. It's very common. You're not alone. Just kind of take things one step at a time and understand that there is a reason why you're doing what you're doing. And yeah, just as long as you're still feeling good about what you're doing what you're doing. And yeah, just as long as you're still feeling good about what you're doing, you're on the right path. That is what matters. Yeah, absolutely. It feels a little like, woo woo, like believe in yourself. Yeah,

but like, true. It's very true. And I hate it because I'm so not that person. But it's true. Like any like those like motivational like posts or like little quotes. I'm like, but no, it's true like any like those like motivational like posts or like little quotes I'm like but no it's true like really you should believe in yourself and you know what's hilarious is when I was in high school we had to take I think I mentioned this on the podcast before we had to take this like career quiz of like what you should be and one of them for me one of the results was like motivational speaker and I was like no, I think I could do it. I mean, it's kind of what you're doing now. You're podcasting.

So you're motivationally speaking for other people. Okay. I like it. You're helping other people, you know, do this. Yeah. No, I like that. I like that perspective. Your guidance counselor was correct.

I'm taking that with me. The other one was standup comedian. So, oh yeah, you're here. Yeah. Both. I've been laughing this entire time. Half of that's been cut out. Incredible. Love it. Love it. Well, Amy, where can everyone find you follow along with everything that you're doing? Just everything in general. Um, so I don't really use too much social media, which is a big flaw. You need to. Big flaw. I'm going to help her. Yes.

Yeah. People reach out, please. But you can find me, A-M-I-E Santa on Instagram. And then you can find me on my website, amysantavica.com, A-M-I-E Santa, V-I-C-C-A. And I just want to put this out there that if you have any questions about anything that I've said here or any questions about photography in general, usage in general, if you just want to talk about your favorite bands, also feel free. Just whatever you want to reach out for, just do it. I'm here.

You can find me very easily there. I love talking to people and I really, really love talking business. So, yeah, just let me know. We do that all the time. Yeah, we do. It's a sickness. It's honestly the best thing though. Like you're one of my favorite people to talk to about that kind of stuff. So I highly recommend you reach out to her. If you have any questions about anything that she talked about, um, we'll link everything in the show notes of how you can get in contact with Amy, but thank you. One more thing I want to say oh okay quick about that um i

think it's really important to be transparent in business um what no matter what side you're on whether you're the client whether you're the consumer whatever it doesn't matter um being transparent is one of the best ways to build loyalty and um trust yeah uh and yeah so one of the things that i instill in every buddy that I work with is they know that I'm not going to BS them. I don't want to swear here. I don't know. I don't want to totally could. Okay, I don't want to bullshit them everybody. And you guys get like a horrible reading now. They swore one time in one episode zero stars um but yeah uh i think it's really important and you know specifically the photography industry is really uh everything's behind closed doors everything's

instead and you know dark corners of rooms gatekeeping very heavy gatekeeping yeah um and i am very anti-gatekeeping so please uh feel free to reach out and if you have any questions about anything i would i would really mean i would love to talk about it um even if you want to like tell me that your favorite brand you know band is creed i'm here for it i'm not gonna gatekeep music either we're here i'm here for you i don't know how i'm gonna make fun of you a little bit, but you know, whatever. Oh my gosh. Love that little wisdom nugget at the end there. Transparency is so important. That's such a big lesson. So thank you for sharing that. And thank you again for being here. I know we've meant to do this for so long and I just really adore you and everything that you're

working on. So I'm glad that everybody can learn from you now yeah this has been wonderful and I'm gonna plug them forever and ever but please follow Erica and Cassie on their their individual social medias as well as if you're not already following marketing happy hour please follow them rate subscribe share it with all your friends I I am such a massive fan of I'm dying Erica teases me because i'm like oh i really like this episode about it i know well in my mind no one listens to this but i i know lots of people listen to it and you're i love all of you i do but in my mind i'm like oh i'm just putting this out to nobody and then i hear amy's like oh my gosh this episode was so good like i learned so much from x y and z person i'm'm like, oh, like people actually listen to this.

So thank you for the plug. I love that. We don't even need to do an outro now. We will anyway. But you know, just kind of push it. Keep pushing it. 10 outros. Amazing.

Thanks so much, Amy. Thank you. Thanks to Amy for this fun and insightful conversation and for that little plug event. You're amazing. I'm excited to take these tips into my client photographer relationships. If you enjoyed Erica's conversation with Amy and you're loving the podcast, please make sure to rate the show and subscribe. We would appreciate it so, so very much. We'd also love to have you follow our LinkedIn newsletter and our page on Instagram. We'll be launching a few resources for you coming up. So make sure to follow along for those updates. We'll see you next week. Cheers.