Marketing Happy Hour - Copywriting 101 | Ethical Copywriter + Email Strategist Karsen Murray

Episode Date: April 7, 2022

Cheers to Season 4 of the Marketing Happy Hour podcast! In this episode, we break down how to build brand omnipresence and loyalty through effective copy and email marketing tactics with Ethical Copywriter + Email Strategist Karsen Murray.  Karsen shares amazing insights, including:  - How to become a confident copywriter - Top tips for growing your email list from the ground up - How to build and nurture an authentic community around your brand - An alternate approach to using pain points in your brand messaging  Grab a drink and listen in to this Marketing Happy Hour conversation!  ----- Other episodes you'll enjoy if you enjoyed Karsen's episode: Empathy in the Workplace + Humanizing Your Brand | Ally Golden of Upwork Email Marketing 101: How to Increase CTR | Rondene Grinam of Microsoft Productivity 101: How to Hustle Sanely | Jess Massey of Hustle Sanely ____ Say hi! DM us on Instagram and share your favorite moments from this episode - we can't wait to hear from you!  Please also consider rating the show and leaving a review, as that helps us tremendously as we move forward in this Marketing Happy Hour journey and create more content for all of you. NEW: Check out our website! NEW: Join our email list! Follow Karsen on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/karsenmurray/ Check out Karsen's Email 101 Course: https://karsenmurray.com/email-marketing-101 Snag Karsen’s messaging freebie!: https://view.flodesk.com/pages/624eec8661c35e3b7b289bf5 Follow MHH on Instagram: https://instagram.com/marketinghappyhr Follow MHH on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/marketing-happy-hour/ Subscribe to our LinkedIn newsletter, Marketing Happy Hour Weekly: https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/marketing-happy-hour-weekly-6950530577867427840/ Join our Marketing Happy Hour Insiders LinkedIn Group: https://www.linkedin.com/groups/9238088/

Hey there, welcome to the Marketing Happy Hour podcast, where each week we're learning career-defining advice, powerful social media strategies, unique creative tips, groundbreaking influencer marketing tactics, and more from marketing experts that represent some of the world's leading brands. Let's dive in. Grab a drink and join your hosts, Cassie and Erica, for this week's episode. Welcome to season four of Marketing Happy Hour. We are so excited to have you here as we kick off this season with Carson Murray, copywriter, educator, and podcaster. Carson is a brand messaging powerhouse who will educate you on how to become a confident copywriter and use your skills to build and nurture an authentic audience around your brand. Carson shares best practices for growing your email list from

scratch, serving your audience with value-driven content, and an alternate approach to using pain points in your messaging. I'm so excited for you guys to hear this episode, and I hope you enjoy it. Hey, Carson, how are you? Hello, Erica. I'm good. It's so nice to be chatting with you today. I've been looking forward to this interview. Yes, me too. I feel like I'm your number one fan from afar. I've been following you for such a long time and keeping up with everything that you are doing. So I'm very excited to be chatting with you today. And we'll be getting into all things copy and email marketing. But before we jump in, I do have an important question for you

that we ask all of our guests and that is, Oh, for sure. What is in your glass tonight as this is marketing happy hour after all? So I did, okay, so I'm going out of town in like a couple of days. I just got back from a trip and now I'm going on a trip. Love it. And so I'm like, I'm living off of that situation where like you just eat everything that's in your fridge. Do you know what I mean? Yes. Like when you're just running out of things and I don't

have any wine, like I really wanted like a nice wine, but I do have to work late tonight. I don't typically work like after four 30, but I have to work late tonight because I'm going on a trip. So I'm actually drinking matcha. Oh my gosh. That's amazing. You are like the matcha queen. I always love matcha. Yes. It's amazing. What's your favorite matcha? Do you have a favorite brand? Yeah. So I have two favorite brands. So, um, if there's any, um, like, you know, I just feel like there's girlies out there that they want to be matcha girlies and they don't really know where to start, you know, because matcha can kind of be like a weird taste at first. If you don't like, I remember the first time I ever ordered matcha, I was like, what is this grass that I'm drinking? But I would say like, if you are trying to get into matcha, blends i don't know if you've tried cover blends but they have like a

pre-made matcha powder that already has like oat milk and coconut milk and lots of like really healthy adaptogens um in it so like try check out clever blends um you can also use carson 15 for 15 off shameless fun there and then um for like just a pure straight up matcha i like the brand gold it's g-o-l-d-e and um both of these brands are female founded so we love i love that i love that for us so if you're looking to get into matcha i would check out those two but that's my favorite and i'm sipping golds right now because i need like straight up pure matcha that's incredible i actually was just thinking about getting some matcha because I have some like leftover jam that I need.

Oh my gosh. Amazing. Yes. Amazing. That's so good. Yeah. So I'll look into that for sure. And we'll put your code in the show notes. Everybody has it. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. I am actually just sipping on some natural wine it's not my favorite so I'm not gonna say the brand oh shoot I love natty wine natty wine is so good but it is it's hit or miss it's hit or miss because has some like sediment in it sometimes and that can be odd yeah this one I feel like it's so it's weird for me to even say this because I'm such a wine person, but I like had to dilute it with water because it's just, it was like syrup almost. I was, it's really sweet. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, well. Yeah, it happens. Yeah,

for sure. Well, I'm excited to get into the nitty gritty here. I just want to hear a little bit about how you got into the world of copywriting and starting your own business. Sure. I actually love this because it was by pure accident. So basically what happened was I was working in hospitality. I worked in hospitality for like 15 years. I love the service industry. I worked for like Hard Rock Casino. I opened in, I worked in hospitality for like 15 years. I love the service industry. Um, I worked for like hard rock casino. I opened a bunch of restaurants, um, work for like hard rock cafe and I'll just do my thing. Didn't really know what I wanted to do with my life. You know, like what I wanted to be when I grew up, I went to school for like education, but then after working in the education field, I was like, yeah, I can't do this. Um, shout out to all the

teachers out there. You guys are heroes, straight up heroes. Um, but anyway, so, I can't do this. Um, shout out to all the teachers out there. You guys are heroes, straight up heroes. Um, but anyway, so it said that wasn't for me. It was working in hospitality, but really loved marketing, um, wound up like getting a job offer for a local company in Tampa as their brand and marketing manager. And didn't really know what I was getting myself into, but absolutely fell in love with it. Like I loved it. I loved managing like all parts of a brand and like, you know, the website and how the website should pivot and how the copy should change on there. And just like their social media, like I kind of oversaw all those little departments. Um, and that, that was really, really cool. And then I always wanted, like, I come from, um, I come from like parents that are entrepreneurs

and business owners. I grew up with like parents that owned a business. I didn't know anything else than that. So I was like, yeah, I really want to do that. Like, I loved that life and I love the life that like my parents created for us. And I just really knew that I wanted to be entrepreneurial in some way, shape or form. So I kind of leveraged my position as a brand and marketing manager. And I was like, Hey, I want to do this from home. Like I want to work from home more. Cause that was like my dream.

And they said, yeah. So I like, I went down to part-time and I started working from home. And then I was like, you know what? I feel like I can do this for like other businesses. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like I can like whatever I'm doing in corporate, I can do for other people, like online. I just didn't know what that looked like. And so then one of my dream brands, I don't know if you're familiar with the brand, but it's called Horatio printing. It's like, yes. Okay. Polly from Horatio. She said she put out like a little PSA to her email list and I was on her email list. Um, this is like back in like 2018, 17, 18. And I was like, um, where she was looking for a social media manager. And I was like, okay, I can totally do that. This is how I'm going to break into the online

industry is I'm going to like apply to be like, I'm going to apply to work for her. And I made it to like, I don't know, I think there was like a hundred applicants. I made it down to like the top 10 and the top five, the top three, then the top two. And I remember being on vacation with my husband and Blue Ridge, Georgia, and I'm sitting on the porch and I got the phone call from her and I didn't get the job. And I thought I, I thought I had it. I thought I had it, but she loved me. We like, we had such a vibe and you know, we were just such a good fit. And she was like, um, Hey, like I know that position is closed, but would you be open to being my virtual assistant? Listen, I had no idea what that meant. I didn't even know really what a

virtual assistant was. Like, I don't feel like it was as popular back then as it is today. You know what I mean? Yeah. And, um, so I became a virtual assistant and the tasks that I wound up doing, I'm really, I'm landing this plane. I swear. Um, the tasks that I wound up doing were very copywriting related. Like she had me writing emails to her newsletter, which had thousands of people on it. And I fell in love with email copywriting. And then, you know, I would get, I was like, Oh my gosh. Okay. Like I'm figuring out what this VA thing is. And I started taking on other clients and I like, um, very quickly booked myself out as a VA and all the projects I found myself doing were copywriting related, like blog writing, email, sales page, website stuff. And then I

found out that copywriting was a real thing and that I can marry my love and my natural gifting of writing. Cause that's just something I've, I've always been good at since I was young. And it's like the thing that everyone was like, oh, you're going to be a writer. You're going to be an author. But I was like, I don't want to be any of those. I don't want to be an author. So I found out that there was a way to marry my love for marketing and my natural gifting of writing and become a copywriter.

And my mind was blown. That is amazing. That's so cool. So it was very accidental. Yeah. Oh, I love that though. And that's so cool that you've mentioned Horatio and you, and you worked for her for a little bit. Um, I, uh, was planning a leadership conference for a ministry up in Nashville. And so I worked with

her and I, we had her planners in our goodie bag. So I might, I might have been part of that email thread depending it was in 2018. Yep. Yeah. I think I remember that. Like, did we customize planners for it? It might've been, I'm not, I'm not entirely sure. Oh, okay. Yeah. I remember, I remember, I remember being a part of some email thread in that capacity of like having a conference. So yeah, maybe. We might have somehow worked together a long time ago. That would not surprise me. I feel like we also have a lot of people in common that we just know randomly.

So especially being based in Tampa, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I'd just love to hear a little bit more about some general tips that you have for copywriting that can be applied to emails, social media, websites, all of those like landing pages to anything that you have to offer. So as far as tips go, just like general broad tips for copywriting, I would say there's there's just so many, right? There's so many, but like the one that I just really want to point out is like being super clear and, and concise in your copywriting, right? And even more so just taking concise out of it and just focusing on being clear.

I feel like a lot of times what I see, um, people get nervous to write copy. Cause maybe it's not like your, your zone of genius for lack of better words, or you're not, you don't feel like you're a gifted writer. So, um, some people try to really be like very clever and, um, in their copywriting, which can oftentimes come off as confusing. Like it feels clever to you and like you get it right. It's like quippy and you're like, okay, that was good. Um, but if you just literally, if you're just so clear about what you're saying, um, that's some of the best copy in the world.

Like if people can understand what it is you're offering them and how they can interact with it in like three to five seconds, you've done the best job in the world. So, um, when it comes to, you know, your emails, social media, websites, landing pages, just focusing like the number one tip I can give is just like focus on being really clear about what you're saying. Also, like Brene Brown says, being clear is being kind. So when we're super clear, we're actually being really kind to our readers and helping them to understand information faster. I think one of like the most my favorite quotes from Donald Miller, if anyone's familiar with Donald Miller, like, people don't buy the best product or service in the marketplace that they buy what they understand the fastest. Um, so if you can just remember that, I feel like that will help you

just go a long ways with your, with your copywriting and just remove all the overwhelm of everything else you might be thinking about. Yeah, no, that's amazing advice. Thank you for that. Well, how can brands use their words to grow their community and ultimately encourage more sales? So I think one of the best way brands can use their words is like knowing what kind of words like resonates with your brand and your community, right? So I think that, I know this sounds elusive. And I think when I say this, people are always like, what does that mean? Or how do I create this? But having a really solid brand message, right?

So knowing what it is that you do and how it helps your community and what kind of problems it might solve for your community and what kind of outcomes they might experience by engaging with your brand and how they can engage with your brand. And, you know, just things like that, just in knowing, knowing the simple transformation that your brand could provide someone, right? And not that it's all about transformation, but just knowing those things and creating a solid brand message around

answering those questions and communicating that in the marketplace is how your, how your brand is going to connect with your community. And the sooner your brand can connect, cause that's what copy is, right? It's like literally connecting your offer, what your brand does with the community that you serve and making it really simple for them to understand that and how to engage with it and how it might improve or support them if that's what they, you know, would like to do, if that's what they need. So the sooner you can create that solid messaging, stick with it, communicate it to the marketplace, people understand it and can engage with it. That's how, you know, you're going to increase sales in my opinion no absolutely do you have any tips on how people can solidify their brand message like any first steps um so i need to get you my freebie i

have a brand messaging freebie and it's a questionnaire i think it's um i haven't i need to i honestly need to like rebrand it but the the questions are still super solid and i use the i think it's like 12 questions that I ask. And these are the same questions that I ask my clients when I'm creating messaging for their copywriting projects. And this, I use these questions if I'm like creating a freebie or creating a new offer, or I'm creating a podcast episode. Let's say I'm trying to market a specific podcast episode. I ask myself these questions and it's how I communicate what I'm doing with the world. It's just like creating messaging for whatever it is. It can be for a

brand. It can be for an offer. Like I said, it can be for a freebie or whatever it is. And I have literally tried to not use it. I did this test with myself. I was like, I'm not going to use it. And I'm just going to try to communicate this thing with my, with my people. And I could not do it. And the thing is, is like, when you don't create messaging for whatever it is that you're trying to put out into the world, you start coming, like, you'll show up on different platforms and communicate it differently on, on all different platforms. Cause you don't really know what you're saying.

Like, you don't really, you haven't like create, you haven't created messaging to specifically communicate it very cohesively. And that's how like, I can always tell when someone might need a little bit of help with messaging is when they start explaining the same thing in different ways because they haven't really solidified it. And that's when your community can start to get confused, right? Because I mean, you might know this, people listening might know this, but it's an age old fact that it takes about what eight to 10 times for someone to interact with our offer or whatever it is we're trying to market before they fully understand what it is and how they can engage with it. Right? Like

you might see it a few times, you might see it in an ad, you might read about it in an email, you might hear someone talking about it on their IG story. And like by your like, maybe eighth time, you're like, Oh, okay, like, I'm, I actually understand now what this is and how it can make my life better. Right. So and that's because they're repeating the same message over and over and over again. So anyways, long story long, I need to get you my freebie that you can plug into the show notes so that people can have that. I think it's called marketing your mess, marketing your offer in minutes. Like it's the marketing your offer in minutes, like questionnaire that you fill out. Oh, that's incredible. Yes. We would love that so that we can share it all over, all over social media everywhere. A lot of people struggle with

just nailing those, you know, brand messaging points in general. So totally, totally helpful. Carson, we talked a little bit about this before we started chatting here, but I would love to hear if you do have any specific tips that you can give around copy that converts. I know you said you have a perspective on that term, so I'd love to hear that. Yeah, it's not juicy, I was gonna say. I have that. Yeah. It's not, it's not juicy. I was going to say,

I have a juicy perspective. It's not really anything groundbreaking, but, um, I actually try to steer clear of that language copy that converts. Um, because, okay. First of all, I used to use that language. Okay. I think maybe like all copywriters have used that language. And I initially stopped using that language because I was like, okay, this is very saturated. Like I'm seeing this everywhere and I don't think it's helping me stand out. And I initially stopped using that language because I was like, okay, this is very saturated. Like I'm seeing this everywhere. And I don't think it's helping me stand out. Like, I don't want to just be another copywriter that's preaching the message like, oh, I write copy that converts. Like, in my opinion, I'm like, well, yeah, that's what we're all trying to do here. But not just that, but I didn't feel like it was very ethical. Like I felt

like, you know, we're taking the stance of like, we're only right copy, we're writing copy in order to get people to, to convert, like, we're just looking at people as like numbers on a spreadsheet and using our words to like convert more and more people, which I get it, like, copies job in a, in a sense is to do that. But as far as like, the way I look at copy and the way I write copy. So like in my Instagram bio, you might see that I write thoughtful and ethical copy. Right. And what this means is it's just approaching your copy a little bit differently. Um, I don't use a lot of like pain points, shame and manipulation in my copy, which is what we're taught to do. So if there's anyone out there that's like, Oh yeah, like I was taught to use pain points in my copy. Like, yes, we all

were. We came up in the world of like bro marketing essentially. Um, so we've, we've all been taught the same thing. So there's no shame, um, around that, but, um, somewhere along the way, like my formal training and copywriting for anyone that might be interested in becoming a copywriter was through StoryBrand. Are you familiar with StoryBrand, Erica? Yes, absolutely. I have not read the book, but I listened to his podcast. Yeah.

Okay. So my formal training was with Donald Miller. I actually like flew out to Nashville, did the whole training in person before, you know, the panini and everything happened. I was actually like the last in-person like cohort, which was really cool. And so there was lots of things that I loved about that formal training, but then there were some things and just some things that were taught in the marketplace, like using shame, like exposing people's shame and exposing their pain points and, you know, manipulating them in order to convert them, you know, to gain more sales. And that never felt good to me. I just didn't know

what else, like, I was like, there has to be something else. And then, you know, the world of ethical copywriting came about and my beautiful, beautiful friend, Nat, that I've had on my podcast twice now, she introduced me to ethical copywriting and I took her course on ethical copywriting and I just learned such a beautiful practice. And that's why I'm again, landing the plane here. But when it comes to like specific tips that you can get to, in my opinion, to support your readers and help them to make a decision if it's right for them. Because if we look at it, if we take a step back and look at it differently, like that's such a beautiful way to look at copy, right? Like really all copy is doing is we're presenting our community. We're

presenting our readers with information and supporting their different decision-making styles so that they can make an informed and autonomous decision about our product, about our service without us having to expose them to shame and pain points and manipulation. So again, my answer here is like, just to be really, really clear, like being clear is so kind. Like you don't really have to, I think we were also taught to make our offers seem a lot better than they were to over promise, make them sound like really bright and shiny. People are yearning for authenticity.

They're yearning for you just to be like really honest about your offer and you know what it includes and how it can possibly help them. Like you don't have to promise them the world, right? Like being realistic in your copy and being really clear in your copy about what your offer is and what it can actually do and how it can support people should alleviate you, right? It should like take all the pressure off to have to be something and make your offer sound like it's something that it's not. And then just being super clear and inviting people into your copy, I think is another thing that is really refreshing. Like instead of talking at people, like, you know, I know you struggle with X, Y, and Z and being like, Hey, do you feel like

you, you know, are overwhelmed by this? Do you see what I mean? Like asking people questions and inviting them into your copy instead of talking at them is another beautiful practice that I would recommend people start implementing as well. Oh, I love that. And I love that you said how you said people are yearning for authenticity. I think that's so true. It's something that's come up over and over again across, you know, all different avenues of marketing. Even in this podcast, we've talked about it so many times about empathy and authenticity and even a little bit of absurdity on like TikTok and things like that. Yeah. There's been such like a shift in the industry in the past few years that, you know, it's, it's more

personal. It's more personalized. It's not, you know, it's not, it's no longer the tactics that we've always been taught. It's, this is new. This is a new landscape and we have to, we have to adjust. So I love that yeah I think that message is so important for sure thank you for sharing yeah um so I know for a lot of business owners social media managers and marketers uh writing copy can be overwhelming and time consuming how would you instill copy confidence into someone I love this question. This is actually one. Yeah. I, our listeners probably can hear me. I'm like reading it clearly. Um, but this is one that Cassie came up with. So kudos to her. I love this term copy confidence. Yeah. That's really, really good. I'm like,

can I use that somewhere? Um, thanks Cassie. Um, but anyways, so, oh gosh, yes. I'm sure. I mean, it's hard. I'm not going to be like, I know how it feels because clearly I'm a copywriter and I I'm, I'm removed from that in the sense of like, I've practiced this for years. Um, but it is, I know it's overwhelming and I know it's time consuming. That's why people hire it out. Right. That's why I have a job. That's literally why I have a job. Um, but for copy confidence, okay, this is going to sound, um, I hope it's encouraging, but you have to practice it, right? Like it's just like anything else. Like the first few times you do it. Okay. Let's just pretend this is how I imagine it happening. Um, because I just, you know, I created my email marketing one-on-one course. And this is

one of the questions that came up. It's like, oh, like I'm overwhelmed when I go to sit down and write an email, Carson, or I just feel like it's going to take me forever. So the thing is, is like one of the most refreshing things that you can do. And I know all platforms are different. Like when you're writing copy for a website versus an email, but I tell them like to write how you speak, right? Like, first of all, write like you speak. It's something that

you have to practice. Um, the more you practice it, the more like the more normal it will hopefully feel for you. I'm not going to promise that it's going to feel normal, but it's just like anything else. Like you, you really have to practice it. And the more that you do practice it, the more you do, um, you get in touch with your own brand voice and how you want to write and how you want to communicate with your community. Like I would assume like, you know voice and how you want to write and how you want to communicate with your community. Like I would assume like, you know, when you sit down to write captions for social media, like the more you practice caption writing, the more comfortable you feel expressing your voice on social media. Right. And, you know, the more emails you write to your

community and the more you feel comfortable, just like, like you feel like you're writing to a friend essentially. And that's the goal. Right right and i think also another thing that will really help with copy confidence is again shameless plug messaging messaging will i i truly believe messaging will provide you with so much confidence because you've already answered those really hard questions and you don't have to think about what you're writing about. Like you've already answered the questions and you're just using those answers to drive and steer your coffee. Yeah, absolutely. And, and what's a method that you recommend for practicing that as well, in addition to just like going for it and just starting and seeing what works, do you practice any AB testing or did you do any of that sort of stuff?

AB testing with, ah, you know what? Not, not really. So my, my method is, um, I'm very, I'm, I like steps, right? Like I like, I like supporting myself as much as possible when it comes to steps. So like literally my practice is create messaging for whatever it is that I'm doing, whatever, whatever it is that I'm writing, use the messaging to drive my copy. Sure. You can AB test, like maybe, I mean, I think you'd AB test things like brand voice more than anything, probably like, Oh, I think this is my voice. And then you might write something the next day and like, you change it up a little bit and you feel more yourself. Um, and I think that's the beauty of being, um, our own brands, right? Like, yes,

you might have a business, but I'm sure like your personal, your business is kind of tied to your personal brand. So that's kind of the beauty of that is like, you can, you can write like you actually talk, right. Cause that's what your community wants. Um, so as far as like AB testing, like, Oh, do I test like copy on a website for X amount of months and then change it up a little bit? I mean, sure you can, if you're, if you, you know, really want to, if you just don't feel like it's resonating the way you wish it would, but I don't do too, too much AB testing. Okay. Yeah, no, that makes total sense. I totally understand that. Um, well shifting gears just a little bit. I know later in this season,

we're going to have your, I think she's your personal friend, actually, Jess, we're going to have her on. Yay. Yes, my bestie. Oh, yeah. So we wanted to talk a little bit about, you know, as a creative and business owner, what tips do you have for staying productive? Because I know Jess is kind of an expert on that, but I would love to hear your perspective as well. I'm like, this is not my territory. Um, okay. So, oh gosh, for staying productive. Um, that is, that's hard. Um, I don't think I ever stay productive. Am I allowed to say that? Like, I don't ever think that I like consistently stay productive, especially as like a business owner with mental illness. Um, I have bipolar two disorder, so I definitely have like

waves and seasons of more productivity than others. Right. Um, but a lot of Jess is like, I, I subscribe to the hustle ceiling methodology. I will say that. And she has helped me so, so much with just like, um, figuring out my likes, I think just like figuring out like a schedule for like my different, um, seasons of life. Um, and just like having a game plan for like those different things. And maybe, I don't know, maybe people with mental illness can definitely resonate. They're like, oh yeah, girl, like I don't stay productive. Yeah. But I think there's different, different. Like, for instance, like with bipolar disorder, like sometimes you're depressed, or sometimes like you're manic, or sometimes you feel completely regular. So I kind of have to have

like, a productivity, like game plan for each one of those things. Right. So maybe that's my answer is just like having a game plan and just knowing that like productivity doesn't look the same for me all the time, but knowing the things that help me feel like I'm being productive in those different places. And that's definitely just like boundaries, like, you know, creating boundaries, knowing my schedule and also just like, I love to make everything around me feel beautiful. I really love like aesthetics.

I know you follow me. So you feel like you, yes, you've got half I know. But I think those three things really, really helped me to want to be productive. Awesome. That's great. And how would you say that you get yourself out of, if you are ever in a creative rut, how do you, how do you get out

of that? How do you come out of that? Um, if I'm ever in a creative rut, it's nine times out of 10, because I've been consuming way too much content and allowing myself to, um, like I'll consume way too much content because I think it's like encouraging me or inspiring me, which sometimes it does, right? Like sometimes consuming content inspires you, but I think there's a fine line. Um, so yeah, uh, I've been consuming too much and then I feel like I'm not doing enough. And then like all my creativity just dries up because then I'm like, Oh no, you know, I'm, I'm irrelevant essentially. So to get out of a creative rut, I kind of like just take a break and rest. Um, a lot of times from like digital

platforms and I just give myself space, like giving myself space, like taking a bubble bath or taking a shower when my phone is not with me, it'll give you all the ideas in the world, you know? So just giving yourself some space to tap back into who you are, and your creativity, and like your ideas and distancing yourself from like everything that I've been consuming really helps. Yeah, that's amazing. And I think that's so important to even going beyond, you know, creative ruts, I think it's just important in general to rest and reset and kind of just like make sure that you're taken care of first because your work follows that. So I totally, totally agree with that. So let's double down for a minute on email because I know you're

the expert and I would love to hear what is, in your opinion, the impact and effectiveness of email and how can brands use that email strategy to build loyalty and community? Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. This question is just my love language. So email. Okay. How do I make this simple? First of all, the impact is incredible there's like four I think by 2023 there's like four billion email users right so a lot of people are like oh email is dead that could that could not if I just could grab someone by the shoulders and look them in the eye and be like if I could tell them one thing I'd be like listen here I don't know who you are but email is not dead but but anyways okay the impact and the effectiveness So I don't think email marketing is for everyone. I'm not going to sit here and be like, you need an email strategy. I

don't, I don't ever like to should anyone into anything. I feel like you really, you really have to be in a place where like you want to implement email marketing to like nurture your community and support your sales efforts. And that's exactly the, that's, that's the beauty of email is that it can do both. It can nurture and it can support your sales efforts. Right. And so the, the effectiveness is like brand omnipresence, right? So let's say you're using like, you know, for a while there, I would say like 90% of business owners were like Instagram, Instagram is not for me. It's, it's just Instagram. And they were putting all their eggs in the Instagram basket. And then that's when a lot of people were coming out of the woodwork and being like, Oh, you know, social media isn't safe. What if your Instagram platform disappears

tomorrow? I don't, I don't subscribe to that messaging either. Like, I just don't think that's going to happen. But email is still one of the most secure ways to market what you do. And beyond that, like beyond that very surface level argument of, yeah, Instagram or TikTok or whatever could, you know, be gone tomorrow. And then how are you going to contact all your community, right? Because you didn't build your email list. Beyond that, it's helping your brand create a more omnipresent reach, right? And a more omnipresent marketing strategy. And the way I like to explain this

is beyond email being a secure platform, it's very intimate and it's very supportive. So let's say like, you know, your community is following you on Instagram and maybe they've even moved on to TikTok. So like, you know, you have them there as well. There's algorithms on both platforms. We, okay, we're not, you know, we know that. Okay, I There's algorithms on both platforms. We, okay. We're

not, you know, we know that. Okay. I'm sorry if I just triggered anyone by saying algorithm. It's like such a sore subject. I know. Um, um, but anyway, so like there's algorithms on both platforms, right? So let's say like, you know, you're cranking out content on Instagram, you're cranking out content on Tik TOK and you know, people, maybe members of your community see it here and there, right? They're not going to see everything because also, you know, they're, they're following other people, but let's say that they're also subscribed to your email list, right? And once a week, you're rounding up all of your best content from Instagram, from your podcast, if you have one from your YouTube channel, from TikTok, and you're compiling it in that email. And you're saying, Hey, like I'm giving you a really convenient way to consume all my

content because there are people out there who actually do want to consume all your content. Like they're very loyal brand fans, right? They just don't have the capacity to. So if you're packaging it up, you're sending it to them once a week, they are way more likely to see you pop up in their inbox than they're going to be able to see all of your content on different social platforms. Right. And even if they're not, you know, people might be like, well, what if they're not opening my email? They're still seeing your name pop up in their inbox or increasing your brand's awareness. Right. It's so powerful. It's so beautiful. I don't have a client. If I could just, if all my clients were on this call with me right now, they'd be like, oh, single

handedly email has changed the way that I sell because also beyond nurturing. So I would, you know, there's nurturing strategies for email where you're just showing up. You know, you're providing value for lack of better word. I really don't like that phrase because I think like inherently we are valuable. So anything we create is valuable. But, you know, providing stuff for your community. But then when you go to sell, like if you're in launch mode, a lot of times people like they're like, you know, their their social media community gets tired of like seeing themselves sell, sell on every story and every post. But when you're also using email to support your sales efforts, that's such a beautiful thing too, because you likely have a segmented group of your community that's interested in that offer. And you know that they're interested. So that way, when you're sending them those emails,

you don't feel bad about it because they asked for it, right? It's like when people sign up for waitlists because they're interested in something. When you're sending them a sales campaign regarding what they signed up for on that waitlist, it's what they asked to be there. They asked for that content. They asked for you to support them in that way. So you're alleviating like your sales strategy and also combining it with social media. And it's beautiful. Again,

there's that omnipresence there. There's that support and there's that segmentation of your audience who specifically asked for that content and who is interested in it. Yeah, absolutely. And you mentioned that people on social media can get, you know, a little turned off by always selling on that, on those on those platforms especially like I mean it can just be overwhelming when they have you know all these people on social media trying to sell them things and if they are actually interested in what you're offering email is such a direct way to address that and I think it's less distracting you know there's like it's not like there's comments on your email where yeah you know, someone's dissatisfied or something like that. So that's another way.

And people can opt out. Like in email, like even if someone's a part, even if someone signed up to be on your wait list, so they said they were interested in that offer so that you're sending them sales emails. Now, if for some reason they're like, oh, this isn't for me, they can opt out. Like you can have them tap on a link or something and it'll automatically remove them from that sequence they'll still remain on your email list they just won't be receiving that sales content and you can't do like there's there's not that segmentation and personalization factor on

social media platforms so like i i i could just go for days but um so there's just so many factors and it's such a beautiful marketing element that you can add to your business once you're ready. Yeah, absolutely. I'd love to just hear for a minute and segue a little bit. Um, how do you feel about text message marketing? Um, so I am personally very overwhelmed by it. Um, I think here's the thing.

I think it's purposeful. I know people that use it i am actually subscribed to um the brand is lindsay aaron it's the daring romantics and she has like a text message subscription where you'll get um encouragement texted to you every day and i love that however when um when it comes to like sales stuff, my take on it is like, we've become conditioned with email to expect sales content. Okay. With your phone, I could not be more annoyed and overwhelmed.

Like literally just yesterday I was at dinner with my husband and, um, I got like, so I don't, I didn't even sign up for it. Like, here's the thing. Like I'm, I'm not signing up for these things and I'm getting bombarded with, oh, here's 15% off for this. And I get so, so frustrated. I think there's less regulation, um, and like security measures around text messaging sales than there are email, like email, it's literally illegal to do that, right? It's, it's illegal to get someone's email without them consenting to giving you their email and sending sales content. Like you can mark them as spam, you can flag them. And then when you mark when you mark emails as spam, and when you flag them, like if they're fishy, or they're spammy,

they'll get like, let's say your inbox provider is Gmail, right? Gmail will, if a lot of Gmail customers are marking them as spam, Gmail will see that and they'll block that sender from reaching their clients. Phone, like phones aren't that way, right? So I honestly, to answer your question, I could not be more annoyed by it. I totally agree I think it's so invasive on the rare occasion I don't know if you follow um we're not really strangers but I also I have their text message you know I like consented and signed up for it um they'll text like just encouragement or like thought-provoking things every now and then. And I love that. I think

that's a, you know, a great way to intimately reach your customer and just start open conversations and things like that around your brand. But I totally agree with you. Listen, consent is a huge part of ethical marketing. Yeah. So if you ever look into ethical marketing, like consent is huge. Like if there's no consent in the marketing, it is no longer ethical. So I think that's the thing too. I think a lot of texting, text marketing is not ethical. Like, and it just frustrates me. Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I just wanted to hear what your thoughts were for sure. Well, moving on, I just want to hear a little bit about if someone's looking to build their email list from scratch, what are some of the examples of effective growth strategies that they can test?

And what have you seen work well for you and your clients? Absolutely. So I think if you have a community, even if you don't, but if you do have a community on like a social media platform, which you likely do, right? I think one of the simplest things you can do, I think sometimes people are like, okay, I have to create this like really robust freebie and it has to be like tons of value. And I'm going to build this like 42 page workbook. And I'm just like, no, no, no, no, no. You don't, honestly, sometimes you don't even need a freebie. Okay.

You can literally create a branded newsletter. Yeah. For instance, I have a branded newsletter. Okay. For like my overarching email opt-in, it's a branded newsletter. It's called the not your average newsletter. And if you go like, uh, if you want an example of it, you can like head to the link in my bio on my handles, like at Carson Murray on Instagram and tap the link in my bio. And then I think it'll say like, um, join, um, what does it say? I'm like clicking

on it right now. Join, um, the not your average newsletter. And when you click tap on that page, it says get exclusive copy and marketing tips. Be the first to know about new podcast episodes, call dibs on free resources and waitlist signups. So right away, people know my community knows by joining my newsletter that this is the type of content they're going to get. And then that's, that's enough value in and of itself. Like I didn't even have to create a freebie. They just know that weekly they're going to get tips and that's, that's the value. That's the reason why they're signing up. Right. So I think very simply, it's like, what kind of branded newsletter can you create and share with your community? Like, do you want to do like a weekly content roundup where you're, and I teach all this in

email marketing one-on-one. So there's like four main, um, different types of branded newsletters that I go over that you can, um, create, um, based on like how your brand is set up. So someone that's creating a ton of content every week, like if you have a YouTube podcast, like if you're making TikTok content and Instagram, you can very easily create content roundup newsletter where once a week you're packaging up all your best performing content and sharing it in a really, you know, just like easy to consume way for your community. And that's value in and of itself. Right. Or maybe like you want to give a weekly tip, then that's your newsletter. So as far as

that goes, like, I don't really think that all this, well, you don't need a freebie all the time, but I think a lot of times like freebie strategy for list growth comes in when you have a, um, an offer attached to it. Right. So like when you also want to build out a sales campaign, so the first step would be like creating a freebie for that offer and then creating a sales campaign that follows it and helps to sell that offer. So yeah, freebies are all great.

I think for the longest time, people were like, oh, if I'm going to build my list, I need to create a freebie. But literally you can create a branded newsletter and your community is going to be like, yes, I love you. I love it. I want more of you. So I'm going to sign up for your email list. Does that help answer your question? Yeah, absolutely. And it really brings up the whole, um, personal branding that you you've been so great at. And I wanted to talk a little bit about that. And, uh And for a while there, you had the brand

Hype Gal, and then you pivoted to your own brand. And now you have courses and a podcast and things like that. And I just love to hear, you know, a little bit of the background behind, you know, how you knew it was time to pivot and how to determine the next best step for you if somebody's in that as well yeah um so for the longest time so my old brand was called hype gal and for the longest time i i knew i was hiding behind my brand like i didn't want to be like the face of a brand i just kind of wanted to hide behind hide behind it i mean that in the nicest way possible like i just didn't want it to be me. Like I didn't want to be the face of my brand.

It felt like a lot of responsibility. It also felt very scary. And for me anyways, it felt scary for me. And it was just easier for me to be strictly business and less personal. But then my community would always be like, we want more of you. Like, you know, I began to see very quickly that it didn't really matter what I was doing, that they were there because they liked me. And that was, I'm not saying that to toot my own horn. It was like an eyeopening moment, you know, like, okay, this is really beautiful. Like I have people that are very supportive and,

and kind and like, they like engaging with what I'm putting out there, um, beyond just like the business stuff. Like, that's really cool. So I think I hid behind beyond just like the business stuff. Like that's really cool. So I think I hid behind my brand for a long time. I was like, I don't want to be a personal brand. I'm never going to be a personal brand. And then all of a sudden I just had this literal come to Jesus moment last July where I texted my best friend, Jessica, who will be on this podcast. And I just felt like I turned 30. And then like the weekend after my 30th birthday, I just had like this discontent in me around my brand. And I was like, this doesn't feel right. And I texted her and I was like, Hey, I think like hype gal is

over. Like, I just feel like it's going to be, I didn't really know what it meant, but that's what I felt. And, um, she texted me back and she was like, can I tell you something and you won't be mad. And like, you like, that's just immediately like immediate anxiety. And I was like, um, I guess so. And she was like, um, I was praying for your business the other day. And while I was cleaning the bathroom, so like, I know it's true because I could literally imagine her doing this. Um, she was like, I was cleaning the bathroom, so like, I know it's true because I could literally imagine her doing this. Yes. I was like, I was cleaning the bathroom, you know, my tidy for 15. And it's part of the hustle sailing framework.

Like you guys love it. And she was like, God was like, yeah, but hype gals ending soon. Oh my God. And I was like, that is so wild. And I didn't really know what that meant. I was like, okay, my business is ending. It's over. Like I have to find a full-time job. Like literally I was looking, I was like looking at jobs, like on convert kit and floor desk.

I was like, I'll do email specialist. Like I got this, like I'll copyright for someone, whatever. And it really just turned out, like, I really just felt like God being like, no, like I just need you to stop hiding. Like I need you to be you. Like I need you to show up in the world. And that was just really cool and beautiful. And so I've been practicing that more and more and just like what it looks like for me to, to be a personal brand with also a business. And, um, I'm really pumped about it. Like I feel free, like I feel

really good. Like I feel free. And I, I think I also realized that I was getting bored with just talking about business. Like even now I love copywriting. I love what I do. I'm so thankful for it. I'm so thankful that I get to use my gifts and my talents to build a business, to serve incredible business owners and to create like time and financial freedom for myself. But like, literally I came to a point like a month ago where I was like, I swear if I have to crank out one more piece of content about copy, I'm going to go bananas. And I realized that all along I've been really passionate about blending, um, like entrepreneurial stuff, copy stuff with like business lifestyle. And I think on all my, on all my platforms, I think that's like what I want to do is like I want to

attract business owners or entrepreneurs that are also like interested in like the business lifestyle side of things too um so it's like not just business not just lifestyle but like marrying those two and I guess I'm sure there are people out there doing it really well um but I don't I have I like I spent so much time looking for it. I was like, Okay, I need to find someone who's doing what I want to do and like emulate it. And I've realized that I just need to like be it. Yes, absolutely. I love that. I feel like that's a lot of people's entrepreneurial journey to is like, if you don't, if you're searching for it, you can't find it, just become it. Like that's exactly, it speaks to that for sure. That's awesome. I love that journey for you. It's awesome.

Well, speaking of the new initiatives that you have, like your email marketing 101 course, and you're just keep showing up podcasts, which I love listening to. I was listening to a couple episodes before we hopped on here. Can you just share a behind the scenes look at what that entails and how you made the decision to launch both of those projects? Yeah, okay. So podcast was pretty easy. Like I, I hope so many people launch podcasts, I feel like just like in the nature of like what I do and helping them creating messaging for their podcast, like, you know, like when podcasts were like really popping off, do you remember that era? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Jenna Kutcher was like my four way or what do you say?

Whatever it's called by. Yeah. So like they were just popping off and I'm not, I really, I'm not the gal that's like, oh yeah, I'm going to do it because it's popular. Like I really have to feel like it's the right time. Like I really have to like, feel like it's the right time for me. So I just felt like I wanted to create another way to connect with my community and provide, I love educating. Like I love educating so, so much. And I just wanted another way to like connect with my community and for them to be able to like, I guess, take me with them. Yeah. Whether they were like in the car or in the shower. And it's mostly like, sometimes I have these realizations where I'm like, okay, I really love podcasts. Like I just love learning while I'm at the gym or I'm in the shower or I'm getting ready or I'm driving. So I feel like other

people have to like, also love this too. And I also wanted that other way to connect with my community. So then I was like, okay, like I feel like it's time to start a podcast. And that's how I did it. I didn't think about it too much. I didn't think about it too much. That's kind of how I do a lot of things that I'm ready to do, to be honest with you, because I'm a very black and white thinker. And if I think about things too much, then I wind up not doing them. Yeah. And as for

the course, did you have an answer for the course? Yeah. Yeah. I'd love to hear. Okay. As for email marketing 101, I, for about a year, I had a lot of people from my community saying like, Hey, like we would really love a course about this or Hey, we would really love educational material around email. Like somehow along the way, I just got dubbed like the queen of email marketing. I really didn't intend to do that. Like that was not my intention. I just think I really love email marketing. And one of my first gigs as a copywriter was I moved from like VA things to like email retainer writing. So I just naturally kind of, and I help people with launches and all that strategy. And I just fell in love with it.

And yeah, I just was like, okay, like I literally did market research for a year. I did it for way too long. And because again, analysis paralysis. And then finally, I had some friends, friends just encouraged me to go for it. And I did a bit around creating a course was the hardest thing I've ever done for some reason. And I think it might just be because it was on email marketing. And it's a it was very challenging to create a course on email marketing, because it's like, okay, this is already like an overwhelming and elusive topic for a lot of people. And I want to help them like implement these things and make

it easy for them to understand. So I felt like I had like, it was kind of like a big undertaking, but then I just, I just did it and I did a beta round. And then I was like, oh my gosh, this is so overwhelming. Maybe this is just for beta. And then I had friends be like, no, Carson, you need to launch this. And I launched it to my email list only. I launched it to my email list only because I was like, all right, I'm going to put my email list wait list to the test. This is where I'm putting my, what's it called? The proof is in the pudding.

Put my money where my mouth is. All of those things and my goal was to sell 30 courses because i was like that would be worth my time and investment like roi wise i was like i want to sell 30 courses i had like 250 people or more on my wait list and i was like in a week um if i sell 30 from like based on my wait list that'll be magical and i think i sold like 30 in like the first like 24 hours from my wait list so that's the power of email right there yeah that is the power of email oh and now we have over 100 people in the course it's amazing oh that's incredible is is how how did you build out your course is it it Clavio or whatever? Um, no, I used Mighty Networks because

I wanted, um, I wanted a course element, but I also wanted a community component all in one because I'm not a Facebook girly. Like I, I just don't, I, it's not my jam. I, you know, I understand that it's, it is for a lot of people and you have to find your own thing. But, um, Mighty Networks was like built for people who wanted to run memberships and like wanting a course element and community. It's a really beautiful platform if anyone wants to check it out. And it allowed me to have like community and the course all in one place and I was sold. Oh, that's awesome. There's a lot of those like community platforms out there, but they don't have that course element. So that's really cool. I'll have to look into that for sure. Um, I want to just know a little bit around how you market your podcast

other than like Instagram. Is it mainly to your email list? Yeah. So every Monday, um, a podcast episode goes live and my email list is always the first to know about it. So, um, the Monday email is about my podcast and my, again, my email is good. And that's the thing. That's the thing with email. Like a lot of times people think they have to reinvent the wheel with creating content for their email list. You totally don't. Like I just let my email list know about my content before any other platform and that makes it all worth it. So yeah, I market it on like via email. I share about it on Instagram. I think, I don't know, like I need to look into podcast SEO, but a lot of people just

find my podcast. Yeah. We're experiencing that too with this. Like I think there's some, someone reached out. Like what is happening? I don't know. Someone reached out to us via email and I think that it could have been a scam. But we like to laugh about it because they were like, you're the number 27th performing podcast in Taiwan. And we were like, how did that happen? Like, what is going on? It honestly probably is just a person reaching out.

It's probably a scam. But we like to joke around. Yeah, I think I literally, yeah, I just got a DM today. Like every once in a while I'll get a DM and it's like, um, like, uh, I just started following your IG because I found your podcast and I'm just like, how, how are you finding my podcast? What are you searching? That's so crazy. Um, yeah. So like podcast platform, I do, I use Buzzsprout as my podcast platform. So I don't know if that has anything to do with it.

And then like word of mouth too, like people share it, which is really beautiful. I'm super grateful for that. Yeah, that's amazing. And then, and then is it the similar routes for your course? You do email and things like that? Yes. Yes. So I'm actually creating, like I'm building out a funnel for my course you do email and things like yes yes so I'm actually um creating like I'm building

out a funnel for my course right now like an email funnel so I'm um working to like build out a workshop so speaking of freebies um here's another fun fact about freebies when you're connecting them to something that you're selling you can a b test more than one like I think a lot of times people are just like oh I need to like find my lead magnet. Like I need to create a webinar and that'll be my thing. But people learn in different ways and people feel supported in different ways. Right. Yeah. So for email marketing one-on-one, I'm going to create like, um, an email marketing game plan workshop, because I feel like that's the most important step when it comes to email marketing is like developing your game plan. So that'll be a workshop that leads people to the course via email. And then I'm also going to do like an email

challenge where like you get emailed one step every day to starting your email list. And it's like written instructions and also like a very short video. So they're like bite-sized steps. And it'll be like, like a little email video challenge, um, and just see which one performs and which one people like. And then that way email will be supporting my email course. And I also talk about it on Instagram. I'll probably talk about it on Tik TOK here soon. I talk about it on the podcast. So yeah, multiple ways I plug it in my nurture emails. Like that's a really beautiful thing. Like even though in your nurture campaign, you're not really hard selling any offers.

Like I use flow desk and I have blocks at the bottom of my emails that like, you know, just plug email marketing one-on-one and people can click on it if they want to. Have you tried other platforms other than flow desk and you found that flow desk is best or is that just kind of what you've always used? I don't, I don't think it's like, I know I've used, I don't know, I've used so many different ones. I've, I've been inside almost every email marketing platform because of just like clients and stuff. I find that if you're newer to email marketing and it all depends on what your goals are. And again, in email marketing 101, I like,

I have like this big, not a big spreadsheet, but I have like this chart that helps people choose their ESP, which is their email service provider based on like their goals. Because I don't want to just be like, oh, Flowdesk is your be all end all. But for newer to email marketing folks and just people with very like simplistic goals for email marketing, Flowdesk, I could not recommend more. Like it just, I think one of the reasons people aren't successful for with email marketing, Flowdesk, I could not recommend more. Like it just, I think one of the reasons people aren't successful for with email marketing is because they don't actually like the platform that they're using. Yeah, absolutely. I've heard really good things

about Flowdesk. So it's amazing. Yeah. Amazing. Uh, in one of my other, um, well my day job, I use a MailChimp on just like a regular Monday email that we always send out. And it's not my favorite thing. But we also use a platform called FG. Have you used that one? No, I haven't used FG. I think it's like the it stands for funnel gorgeous. But I know that. Oh, yes, I heard a funnel. I've heard a funnel gorgeous. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I know that it's not like, I mean, I'm not in that platform every day, but I know, I know the other people on our team don't actually love it either. So we want to look into Flowdesk. It's probably, yeah, very robust. The thing with Flowdesk is it's like, it's a relatively newer than a lot of

other, I think it provides solutions like, Oh, like MailChimp and other robust platforms. They're like, Oh, so dry. They're not very aesthetic. Um, they are hard to use. Like a flow desk is very easy to use. And that's what, that's what small business owners are looking for. Like they don't need these platforms with like tons of options and funnels and tagging and segmenting. They're not there yet. And I think a lot of that is like, if you have like a lot of digital products or like e-commerce, like that's where a lot of those tools come in handy. Um, so they like, they're, they're genius. Like Martha and Rebecca are genius for like creating the solution to that problem.

Yeah. Um, yeah, I just think like there's a time and a place for all, all of that. And you just have to, you just have to know what your goals are for email and make sure that your ESP like supports those goals at the end of the day. Yeah, absolutely. That's great advice. Well, we are nearing the end of our interview here. I feel like we could talk forever about this, but we love to ask this question on Marketing Happy Hour. What do you know now that you wish you did at the beginning of your career? Oh my goodness. Oh gosh. I feel like I gave myself a piece of advice. Like, you know, don't expect yourself to be at a certain point during any point of this. You know what I mean? Like we kind of like create landmarks

or milestones, like where we think we should be at a certain time. Like, don't do that. Like don't put that kind of pressure on yourself. But to be honest with you, Erica, I'm glad I didn't know anything because I feel like if I would have known everything that I know now, I wouldn't have done it. You know, like I, if I, if I would have known that, like, it's going to be beautiful, but it's also would have known that, like, it's going to be beautiful, but it's also going to be really difficult. Like it's going to be really wonderful and rewarding, but it's also going to be like incredibly challenging. And you're going to want to like quit everything. Sometimes I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have done it. So sometimes I'm

just glad that I didn't know. I didn't know anything. Yeah. It's like the bliss of ignorance or ignorance. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree with that too. Especially like even in working in a corporate environment, it's the same thing. Like, I don't know. I feel the same way, but yeah. So that's pretty much it. Where can people follow you? Find you? I know you have all sorts of platforms. So where can people get to you? Yeah, um, so you can hang out with me on Instagram at Carson Murray. And like, don't if you're typing that in to Instagram right now, it's with a K like first and foremost, it's K-A-R-S-E-N. So if you're like already searching like C-A-R, um, that's not, it's not going to work out well. Um, and then like, if you tap the link in my bio,

that's where you can like join my email newsletter. Even if you're just looking for inspiration, like even if you're not looking for like copy tips or something, like just join for inspo. It's like, you want to see like, you know, if you're interested in email marketing and kind of like how I'm doing things, um, I tell all my clients to do that. And then on Tik TOK, I'm Carson dot Marie, because someone took my name, how that happened. I have no idea. Um, and then I have a podcast, but again, you can find that like in my, in my, you can basically find everything in my Instagram bio. Let's just, let's just say that. Okay. Amazing. And we'll put all your information in the show notes and on our Instagram and everywhere as well. So people will be able

to get to you. Well, thank you so much for joining us. I am so excited about this episode. I think it will provide a lot of value obviously, and just so much great advice for people who are trying to break out into the world of email marketing, break out into their copywriting skills and things like that. So thank you so much for joining us. Yes. Thank you so much for having me. This was so fun. What an awesome episode that Carson and Erica did together. I loved getting to listen to all the insights that Carson shared on ethical copywriting. It's actually a principle that I've never really thought about before, but something I'm definitely going to pay attention to and see how I can apply in my

own organization. As always, if you enjoyed this episode, we would love for you to subscribe to the podcast and give us a follow on instagram you can find us at marketing happy hour that's at marketing happy hr