Marketing Happy Hour - Empathy in the Workplace + Humanizing Your Brand | Ally Golden of Upwork

Episode Date: October 7, 2021

Welcome to season 2 of Marketing Happy Hour! We're so excited to be back with this premier episode with Ally Golden of UpWork, the world’s work marketplace, connecting millions of businesses with independent talent around the globe. Ally is passionate about empathy in the workplace and branding. In this episode, she shares how Upwork is working to create an empathetic workplace and how you can do the same. As a brand manager, she shares insights on how all brands can humanize their company and show empathy to their consumers through various marketing channels.  Grab a drink and listen in.  ----- Other episodes you'll enjoy if you enjoyed Ally's episode: Copywriting 101 | Ethical Copywriter + Email Strategist Karsen Murray Chatting Sustainability, Marketing Career, Hard Kombucha, and...Diplo?! | Annie Atwell of JuneShine Growing a Community on Social | Karissa Widder of Kindred ____ Say hi! DM us on Instagram and share your favorite moments from this episode - we can't wait to hear from you!  Please also consider rating the show and leaving a review, as that helps us tremendously as we move forward in this Marketing Happy Hour journey and create more content for all of you. NEW: Check out our website! NEW: Join our email list! Follow Ally on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/allyagolden/ Connect with Ally on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexandragolden/ Follow MHH on Instagram: https://instagram.com/marketinghappyhr Follow MHH on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/marketing-happy-hour/ Subscribe to our LinkedIn newsletter, Marketing Happy Hour Weekly: https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/marketing-happy-hour-weekly-6950530577867427840/ Join our Marketing Happy Hour Insiders LinkedIn Group: https://www.linkedin.com/groups/9238088/

Welcome to the Marketing Happy Hour podcast, where you'll hear career-defining advice, powerful social media strategies, unique creative tips, groundbreaking influencer marketing tactics, and more from marketing experts that represent some of the world's leading brands. So grab a drink and join us for this week's episode. Does your business post graphics on social media? Well, if they do, I have a challenge for you. So I would encourage you to post graphics very minimally. And the reason why is because a lot of times when a consumer comes across a graphic, it looks more like an ad than a general photo or video or carousel. So number one, don't post graphics every single day.

And number two, when you do post graphics, make sure the text is very minimal, clean, and branded within your graphic. A lot of the information that people are putting on the graphics themselves are actually points that can be shared in the caption instead. And so basically, the goal for you should be to create a graphic that's very eye-catching and beautiful and matches your branding, but drives people to look into the caption to learn more about that post. This week, we're chatting with Allie Golden, brand manager for Upwork, the world's work marketplace, connecting millions of businesses with independent talent around the globe. In this episode,

Ali shares all about her heart for empathy in the workplace and how the best companies value empathy as well. Before we dive in, Ali shared a few interesting tidbits with us for the intro. According to VeryWell, empathy is the ability to emotionally understand what other people feel, see things from their point of view, and imagine yourself in their place. Essentially, it is putting yourself in someone else's position and feeling what they must be feeling. In a study of 889 employees done by Catalyst, empathy resulted in the following. More innovation among teams, more employee engagement, higher company retention rates, and more inclusivity and better work-life balance.

Join us as we dive in with Allie. Hey, Allie, how are you? I'm good. I'm good. How are you? Doing well. We're so excited to have you tonight. And you are actually new to the Marketing Happy Hour world.

So we haven't asked you this question before. But basically what we do when we start out these interviews is because it is Marketing Happy Hour, we like to find out what you are drinking tonight. So I personally have water in a coffee mug. It's been one of those weeks. I may go get a hard cider or something later. We will see. But what are you drinking tonight?

I am actually drinking some local sangria from Keeling Curly Winery, which is actually in Plant City, Florida. They do a wonderful red blend sangria that I love. So I'm very, very happy to have that after a long day love that Erica what about you I'm actually sipping on an onda which is um Shea Mitchell's brand of sparkling tequila which is so weird because I don't even like tequila like I had some fun days in college and never drank tequila again and then I found these came out and I was like, oh, the branding is so cute. I should just try it.

And I tried it and it's actually so good. And I hate it because I can no longer claim that I don't like tequila. But it's okay. I didn't even know she had that. That's awesome. I love her from Pretty Little Liars. Yeah. I'll have to send you like the brand page. It's so cute. And they do such a great job.

Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. Good for her. So you recently started a new role with Upwork. And congrats on that, by the way. Thank you. Following your journey. And then can you tell us a little bit about your background and your current role? Yeah, absolutely. So I graduated from Suffolk University in Boston with a degree in PR. And then since then, I really realized that my specialty really lied in brand and marketing. And so when I left school, I really decided that marketing and that sort of avenue was what I was really going to pursue. And so I started in wealth management, oddly enough,

working for a wealth management firm that serviced high net worth clients, so doing marketing for them. And then I moved to the patient financing world with Lending Club, which is a large personal loan lender out of San Francisco. And then I was most recently with Luca and Danny, which is a retail jewelry company, primarily online, and then also in wholesale as well. And now in the tech space. So living proof that, you know, career journey is not always linear, right? It takes a long time to figure out sort of where you fit in and how your skills have grown. So these, you know, the prior companies I was with ahead of Upwork, you know, we're a much smaller organization. So joining Upwork has certainly been a learning curve. It's a bigger role. My role is a brand manager. So I'm sitting on a very fast growing

brand team, which is really exciting. And I'm not sure if you're familiar sort of with Upwork's mission, but Upwork is really changing how the world works. I think, you know, through creating economic opportunities for all types of people. So really destigmatizing the term freelancer and using the word talent, right? And I think this, that mission in and of itself has a lot of facets, you know, one being building a really strong brand that values, you know, personal and professional growth with corporate employees, talent, clients, and just the end consumer as well. I love that. I love the use of talent. I think it almost values people more, which is great. It's kind of like when I worked at Disney, we weren't allowed to call people customers, they were guests,

it kind of adds a little bit more value to the person. So exactly. Yeah, yeah. So kind of going into that, I guess that's kind of a spin into the empathy route that we're going in. But yeah, you've mentioned to me before that empathy is incredibly important to you, as it should be to everyone. But what would you say? How do you define empathy personally? Yeah, I think, you know, I define it in a lot of ways. I define it in my professional world. And I define it in my personal world. I think, from a workplace perspective, it means a lot. Specifically, I think, personally, I define it in my personal world. I think from a workplace perspective, it means a lot specifically. I think personally, I see it as a business driver, right? I think

having a strong sense of empathy from the top down should be a business driver for a lot of organizations. And I think defining it, it really is about taking that extra intentional, thoughtful step to process before you react. I think so often we join these organizations that don't have a structure for management and leadership that have an empathetic background. And I think we as millennials in particular sort of expect a lot more from our employers than we do than generations have in the past, right. And that, I think, has in some ways set us up to fail in a lot of ways, given our, you know, our generation, but there's a level of curiosity, at least for me, on how we can change that structure and make

workplaces more empathetic. And so a lot of a lot of the work that I do is actually working with employee resource groups. And specifically at Upwork, that's called the work that I do is actually working with employee resource groups and specifically at Upwork, that's called the UBC, which is the Upwork Belonging Community. So already getting involved there from the women's group front and some other of the UBCs as well. We have eight. But it really feels like it's the term empathy and just how it relates to a business is just very ripe for disruption to make sure that we are making work an inclusive place for all people.

But yeah, I love that. I think that's so important. And I know, just from personal experience, you know, I've worked for both kinds of companies, companies that really, really do a great job at expressing empathy internally and then translating that externally and then some who don't. And even my own experience, I just have way more great things to say about the companies that do express their empathy than those that don't. And I think that's a great learning lesson to take away for sure. Yeah. And I think it changes your perspective on going to work, right? If you're, if you're showing up for work and you know that it is a company that

genuinely aligns with your personal values is empathetic towards you in your life. Um, rather than, you know, a company that doesn't value work life balance, and doesn't value extracurriculars and career growth, and all those other things that are really important. I think it just makes for a very different overall career experience. And we learn from all of those, of course, right? I think, you know, pretty quickly, whether or not a company is going to be able to show up and be empathetic towards you and your personal situation from the top down. But I agree. I think you learn very, very quickly, you know, how that works and how you fit into that mix. And the experience is invaluable either way.

Yeah, absolutely. And for many companies, empathy doesn't tend to come naturally, like you mentioned. What do you think are some ways that leaders can work on pivoting towards a more empathetic workplace? I love this question. I think part of it is the realization that the workforce is changing. I think it's becoming something different than in the last, like, I'd say three to five years. And then post-pandemic specifically, I'd say three to five years. And then post pandemic specifically,

I think that realization at an organizational level is key. Leaders specifically, I think, can really pivot the conversation by practicing active listening versus passive listening. And that may seem like a small shift, but in the grand scheme of things, you know, more often than not leaders at the at the C-suite level are passive listeners. And active listening is and I want to stress this is a practice. I know personally, I'm working on it in, you know, in my own relationships in and outside of work. It is a it is a true skill to be able to lead from within. And that is true empathy. I think, you know, organization, some And that is true empathy. I think, you know, organizations, some things that can happen at the organizational level too,

are just workshops, offsite options for leaders to build these skills, and then use real life examples to put those into play on a day to day basis. I was thinking about this earlier. And I think the more the more you use the the empathy muscle, as I'm like trying to describe it, the stronger it becomes over time. And I just think that it's a it's a daily practice. And we have to stress it as a practice to to get the message across of how important it is. That's great. Yeah. And I think kind of like what you said about practicing active listening, I feel like most of the time passive listeners are the people who are reacting before they think about it first, because they're not taking the time to listen before they do that reaction. So I think that's

great. And it's something so simple to think about. But a lot of people have so many issues with that. Because yeah, people are too worried about getting their point across before worrying about anything else. So yeah, I think that small shift, whether, you know, maybe a hard thing for people to learn, but I think you're right. I think that's something huge that can make a big difference. Yeah. And I think you see it often in meetings, right? People will try to talk over you or get their point across. And it's really about taking that step back. And this is, you know, goes back to sort of the, how I define empathy, at least in the workplace specifically is taking a moment to thoughtfully

process how you're going to respond before you react. I think we always try to control situations, you know, women specifically, I think in the workplace, always try to control situations. You know, women specifically, I think in the workplace, always try to control situations to to get the best outcome. And often, those things are completely out of our control, right. So something I like to remind myself of is, you know, I, I can only control myself in this situation, I can control how to be an active listener. And I can teach those around me how I want to be treated. And that's something I've taken with me over the last seven and a half years being outside of school now and in these companies I've had the opportunity to work with. I think it's really important.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's probably so great that now you're kind of in this company where they're so focused on hiring and building people up and building talent, like you said. So, you know, some of your past experience dealing with companies that are empathetic and are not as empathetic, I'm sure you could bring a lot of insight to your current position, which is great. Absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, I think back to, you know, to Upwork in general, I think they're think they're doing a really great job in bringing the values of the company back to the end consumer.

And I think that's through very intentional messaging, intentional programs and campaigns. But to that point of de-stigmatizing the term freelancer, right? And just thinking about these folks who are not comfortable going back to the office, or were laid off during COVID, or anything else that it might be, they want a career change. I think, you know, we use the term freelancer and have used the term freelancer, and maybe looked at it a little bit differently, rather than a full time corporate employee. And I think using the word talent, again, to your point is, is, you know, it's revolutionary. It's, it's certainly changing, you know, changing the perception of, of, you know,

our audience, and then our internal, you know, it's changing our internal employee perception as well. Yeah, absolutely. So let's shift a little bit from internal company application in terms of empathy and into kind of the marketing side of it. So how do you see and how have you seen with your experience? How can brands express empathy outwardly to their consumers through different digital channels, you know, social media, marketing, pretty much everything that they create that is external facing? How can they express empathy through those channels? Yeah, absolutely. And I think the

number one thing is messaging. It's messaging that the internal organization is aligned with that when we go to it, and I like to think of it as going to market, right? When you're going to market with a certain message, the entire organization needs to be behind that message. You know, I can think of several examples, specifically right now, where we're doing an Upwork CoLab program, which is designed to showcase partnerships for the brand, but also, you know, showcase our internal values as well. And I think one thing that I've been working on specifically is the messaging. How do we want to talk to our clients? How do we want to talk to the talent? How do you want to talk to the end consumer? I think it's important for brands

specifically to really see that end audience as an ally in that respect. So what would you want, like, what would you want to read? Right. And I and I always think about this before putting something on paper is as a consumer, at any point in the funnel, right? What is something that you would want to see? And I think we, you know, we often talk about like, also seeing brand ambassadors, and the impact they can make on your target audience, right when it's done in an authentic way. But I think having the internal employees also be brand ambassadors is just another way to really engage the authenticity internally that you can then show externally by making

sure everyone is on board. And it really validates that empathetic behavior from the inside out. And I think it's also, you know, in terms of messaging, I think that that is obviously paramount and, you know, number one in terms of going to market, but also having the strong engagement team when you're going externally. I think, you know, an engagement team that is fully believing in the mission and the values of the brand. And then that's, you know, that's a consumer facing team that has a lot of responsibility, similar to leadership, right? I often see engagement teams as highly in regard to the leadership team. And I think there's a lot of training and buy in that needs to happen, you know, with both of those teams, in terms of bringing that empathetic voice to market. And so I think, you know, messaging definitely is paramount. But there's also some internal shifts that I think before you go to

market and you press send on on a campaign that the entire team has been working on cross channeling, there has to be that that buy in of that mindset before going forward. Yeah, definitely. And and when you say engagement team, are you kind of talking customer service, community management type? Exactly, exactly. So Upwork has, which is amazing, has an official quote unquote engagement team that actually is trained by the social team and also by brand so that they're able to understand the campaign end to end, excuse me, and also know how we are positioning ourselves in the market to communicate out so that we're differentiating ourselves from competitors. Awesome. Yeah. And I would love

to get your perspective. You know, the cool thing about social media is like, I've met a lot of my friends on there. That's actually how Cassie and I met. And I know that, um, Allie, you and I have been following each other for a little while. Um, and now we get the opportunity to chat and hopefully hang out when we're all in Florida. Um, and that's also a way that brands can really connect with their audience in an active and participating way. Um, so how important is it from your perspective for brands to showcase their empathetic side on social media? What's the line of it being authentic or perfective? I've just seen a lot of efforts to really highlight some corporate social responsibility on social these days. And I just love to hear from you what how important you think that is on the consumer facing channels. Yeah, I think, given the emphasis that, you know,

our marketing sphere puts on social media these days, I mean, think about in the last 10 years, just how social media has evolved and become its own animal, right? And its own needing its own team of people to run. I mean, it's, it's wild just to think about it. I remember when Instagram was launched, which is really showing my age, but I think it's, it's, it's as important as the team that's pushing out the campaign to be able to say, we need a certain level of engagement in the comments. And now that, and I'm actually going to pivot one second because I'm just going to back up. But I think from an app perspective as well, we have so many more apps and things to engage on than we used to, right? So not only is it paramount to be from a brand perspective,

to be on those applications and to have a presence on them, but to also be engaging because you never know at what point in the funnel and at what point on what app you're going to find a potential fit for the brand, whether it's buying the product or somebody that has a positive interaction with your customer engagement team. I think we and I personally have had some really great interactions with brands like Golden Coil and Bando in the past on their social media accounts where they've made an effort to go above and beyond, send me a DM and say, I love that sweater you're wearing. It means a lot that you purchased this book. I had an issue with Golden Coil where part of the gold foil on my agenda book was coming off. They sent me a $20 off coupon for next time.

The customer engagement side is huge, and that is entirely through social media. I think we're moving away from the phone calls, the emails, et cetera. And people are communicating directly via DM now because it's a direct line to the brand. And I think that that's also humanizing how we communicate with these large brands, which I know is another topic we wanted to talk about today is just how we're using social media is really determining how we connect with these big organizations. And I think opportunities arise at any point to make friends, to make connections, to network with these larger brands. And it's paramount for the engagement team to be mindful of how they're communicating with the end audience.

Yeah, I love that you brought up some of the customer service interactions that you've had, like via DM, I think, absolutely, I think of the brand, chewy, the dog, cat brand, online brand, I don't have a dog or cat personally. So I'm not exactly sure what they do. But yeah, I just I see on social media that, you know, when when one of their customers pets pass away, they'll typically send the owner, you know, a bouquet of flowers or something just like going above and beyond and not really talking about it so much on on their own social platforms, but just through word of mouth, through somebody who went through that tough time, you know, sharing that on their own story, like, that's a huge, a huge win in a huge way that you can show your empathetic side. So actually, with that, have you seen any brands recently that you felt made a standout effort to humanize and align with cultural moments that have happened lately? Absolutely. So there are a few that that come to mind, I think of Crocs, which may sound silly, but they have gone through a huge rebrand in the last, I'd say, like three to four years. And

I'm sure you both know Crocs are now in in style and fashionable. And somehow somehow I love it somehow they have made the turn to being a cool brand um and I find that incredibly inspiring from a marketing perspective to see how they were able to do that through influencers like Priyanka Chopra Jonas and uh Justin Bieber and having you know Crocs that was related. And I mean, they have truly in there selling them at Disney now. I mean, it's, it's incredible. Bando is another one that I think does a wonderful job of this. I'm not sure how familiar you both are with them, but they love, yeah, they're incredible. I mean, just the way that they have come to market from a millennial standpoint

is amazing. Like the notebooks that they sell that say like, I am very busy. Have you ever been present? Allie, have you seen their wellness workbook? Yes, it is so good. It's so so good. It's awesome. And I actually just a book to recommend for you both, if you haven't read it, the founder of Bando, Jen Gotch, her book, The Upside of Being Down is incredible. Highly, highly recommend it. She has, you know, she is someone who has struggled with mental health issues. And I think the way she's been able to bring it to her brand and also make a community out of it.

And the wellness workbook is a great example of that is it is truly inspiring. And I highly recommend that to you both. But they're a wonderful brand as well. Airbnb has taken a really big stance on discrimination and how that plays into traveling, which I think is amazing. And then Dove is another one that I think has done a really good job over the past few years. And Dove's kind of a dark horse for me. They've obviously been, you know, they've been around for a long time. But I think they figured out that with these Instagram brands that are, you know, peddling products that may not be as, you know as, you know, um, seasoned as, as Dove, they've had to shift their marketing strategy to be more holistic about women's beauty. Um, and I think that that's,

that's really admirable what they've, what they've done there. Yeah, I agree. I, I remember studying them in college actually, which I hate to say it, but I now I don't know, five years out of college, six years out of college. So, you know, that was kind of a time where it wasn't super popular to kind of be as inclusive. So it's really cool to see them kind of set the way for that. And they're still doing that, which is great. So you know, I think we can learn a lot from brands like them who kind of pioneer those kinds of ideas, even as, you know, unpopular as it was at the time, but it's great to see so many companies following suit now. And I think part of that is discovering what the emotional connection is with the end consumer from a brand perspective, no matter what

the emotional connection is for Airbnb, it's travel for Dove, it's women's beauty for Bando, it's mental health awareness, whatever it is, it's paramount to their success. So whether it's showing more authenticity, transparency, the stance against discrimination, they've been able to humanize their company past buying a product or service. And that is where brands are moving. And I think you see this with even brands like Our Place, who are the kitchen utensils and kitchen cookware. They have humanized their brand past their product. It's a lifestyle. And I think we, you know, lifestyle brand is a term that, you know, I use loosely, but I think they're able to humanize themselves past just having a consumer buy a product or service. And I think, hopefully, you know, in the next few years that we can collectively sort of get to this place where credibility for being an empathetic company is number one, a widely used term, and then also just a checkpoint for organizations to be able to say, are we acting as our best selves? Are we being thoughtful and intentional about what we're putting out there to not alienate anyone from a marketing perspective or internally? And I think you have to walk the walk and talk the talk when you're

a brand that has a lot of eyes on you, which a lot of these brands are. And I think we see it all the time when a brand makes a misstep and how detrimental that is. So it really is about being thoughtful and intentional with that. Absolutely. And I think about what you were saying about the emotional connection. So kind of like Erica said, you know, with Chewy, for example, they were sending flowers to people whose pets had recently passed away. So they're making that emotional connection through a monumental moment in their life. So I think about Bando when you mentioned

that brand, you know, that is a brand I think about when I first started college looking for a planner that was like totally first companies I went for, you know, because they really attracted my attention through their messaging and through their branding. So it's like, yes, think about how you can build an emotional connection with people and how can you tie in those emotions with monumental moments in people's lives? Because that's what really makes people remember your brand ultimately. Absolutely. And something where we're developing at Upwork, which is just so refreshing is a cultural moment strategy. So having a full strategy where you're saying, here are the cultural moments we're identifying as moments that are important to our brand

and be able to show up very authentically in those moments and think about how we want to show up, whether it's Black History Month and highlighting Black artists on our Instagram page or women's history month and highlighting Hayden, our CEO, who is a woman, whatever, whatever they may be. I think there are tons of cultural moments nowadays where it's imperative for, you know, and be authentic in that way. And just circling back to Chewy again, I think that's, that has nothing to do with their product, right? I mean, that is just incredible marketing and incredible branding and thoughtfulness that, that transcends their product. And I am sure that the person that they send those flowers to is a customer for life because of that, that connection and that kindness, which is, which is so rare.

Yeah. And one last thing I'll say about culture moments too is, you know, a lot of these things are planned out in advance or are kind of set in place in advance. So like you were saying, Black History Month or, you know, things like that is people can anticipate for that. So what we're saying at the beginning of this podcast, you know, think before you speak essentially. So think about what is coming up

and how you can authentically align your brand with these different cultural moments are coming up so that you're not reactive. And it's not, you know, October 1, and you're like, Oh, shoot, we didn't come up with anything for breast cancer awareness. Absolutely. Yeah. So it's like, how can you think about those throughout the year? How can you do intentional planning to make sure that your brand is showing up when they should show up to? Yeah. And I think it's also about getting a wide variety of people in the room to talk about that, which I often think is overlooked in the in the corporate space. I think we we have the stigma about meetings that, you know, we shouldn't have too many cooks in the kitchen. But how do you identify the right people in your organization who, number one, are showing

up for these cultural moments in their own way and having them be a part of this bigger strategy and this bigger outward facing movement for these cultural moments, which have become imperative for brands to show up in. And, and again, to your point, just really being intentional about the messaging and how you're going out and showing yourself because it is a reflection of the internal employees and also of the brand. And ultimately the brand is what is keeping people coming back. I think there are obviously, you know, nuanced cases where it's a product or service without the brand, but branding is becoming more important and empathetic branding is becoming, you know, is becoming the most important, I think.

Yeah, absolutely. And throughout this conversation, I've been thinking about, you know, I was developing some CSR strategies at my last job. And, you know, everything we looked up was Gen Z is more empathetic than any generation before. And, you know, all these stats come up about how they're more likely to buy from companies that really align with their values. And so I think that just really speaks to the future of brands and branding and how you interact with your consumer. And I think people are really starting to take note of that, especially the younger generations. And so if you can win them when you're young with that awesome, you know, empathetic voice and real care behind your brand, I think that positions you really, really well for anything moving forward. Totally. And I think to that point as well, right, like knowing your target audience, when you're going out with something is the most important, right? I think if you're targeting on Facebook, if you're targeting on Instagram, like you're going to get two different audiences,

because they're going to be two different people. And then even if you're adding in TikTok in the mix, you're going to get more Gen Z. I mean, it's just the way that the landscape is changing and the fact that Gen Z is becoming such a prominent customer when it comes to branding in terms of, you know, aligning with brands that really connect with their values. And I know, you know, we've spoken about some that connected with ours as well. I think it's just, it's, it's so important for these companies to evolve past their, their own demographic that they've been comfortable with and start to get towards that younger demographic, because to your point, like they are the future. They are the future consumers that are coming up and, and going to be looking to brands to bring them something that is impactful and done right.

Yes, excellent. Well, Ali, this has been so amazing. We have one more question that we have to ask you as we do with all of our guests. So is there anything that you know now currently in your role in your life and your career path that you're on right now that you wish you knew uh early on when you started out your career that is a wonderful question let me think I I wish that younger me had I wish that younger Allie had the confidence that I do now. I think I wish that I had taught myself more confidence and more empathy earlier on. I wish I'd shown myself empathy earlier on. when we, you know, are right out of college is very different how we treat ourselves, you know, seven and a half years later, right, in terms of how it works, or how you're working with with other organizations and other people. But I wish that I had taught myself a little more confidence, I wish I had taken the, you know, the extra courses and the extra, you know, conferences and things like that, back when when I was a little younger, because I do,

I do feel like those types of interactions and networking with other people in your industry are are so incredibly important. And I have certainly learned that as I've, you know, as I've grown in my career, but I think, right, right when I was younger, I, I could have used more of that and I could have certainly used more of a mentor in that way. Um, but I wish I had, I wish I had that. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I would say the same exact thing for me too. Um, well, Allie, it's been awesome chatting with you. Um, where can everyone find you? LinkedIn, Instagram, where are you at? Absolutely. So LinkedIn, I am Alexandra Golden.

So using my full name there. And then on Instagram, I am at Allie, A-L-L-Y, A Golden, G-O-L-D-E-N. Awesome. Thanks, Allie. Appreciate it. Thank you both so much. I appreciate it. Thanks for the chat.

Wow, I really loved that conversation. If you also enjoyed this episode, please remember to rate and leave a review. And as always, keep up with us on Instagram at Marketing Happy Hour. That's at marketing happy HR