Marketing Happy Hour - Is it Time for a Career Shift? | Ashley Menzies Babatunde of No Straight Path

Starting point is 00:00:00 Ashley, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for being here. How are you today? I'm doing well. Thank you so much for having me, Cassie. I'm so excited. Absolutely. We're stoked to have you. But before we get into the conversation, we have to ask you, what is in your cup this morning? It's about 11 o'clock Eastern when we're recording, so it's a little bit early in the day, but are you sipping on anything fun right now? Yeah. Yeah. It's for me, it's 8 AM on yeah. Pacific standard time. So I'm having my morning tea. I have a little bit of honey, a little bit of lemon in there so that my voice sounds good when I'm chatting with you. So yeah. Oh my gosh. I love that. I just have my coffee

Starting point is 00:00:46 here and I think Cassie also has tea. So we're actually doing, instead of marketing happy hour right now today, it's marketing coffee and tea hour, I guess. I love it. Well, Ashley, could you just share quickly the story of how you got into podcasting a little bit about your background and then the unexpected opportunity you had to join the HubSpot Podcast Network? Absolutely. So it goes back to my childhood, which is funny because that's something that I do on my show is going back to just the childhood and starting at the beginning. But growing up, I was this overachiever who always wanted to do really well in school,

Starting point is 00:01:25 very committed to everything I did, cried when I went outside the lines, when I was coloring. So even just a perfectionist. And I was also a little manifester. So I wrote at the age of 10 to myself that I wanted to go to Stanford, that I wanted to go to Harvard, that I wanted to be a lawyer. And I was able to do all of those things. And I thought that the path would be linear. I thought that if I worked really hard, I'd see those

Starting point is 00:01:51 positive results and it'd work out. And for most of my academic career, it did. Not that it was easy. I had to work really hard, but I usually got to see those positive results. And I remember the podcast actually came from my first pivot or first really pain point in my journey when I failed the California bar exam. And I failed the exam. I ended up losing my job. I had always achieved and I really couldn't believe it at that time. And the thing that really saved me was storytelling. It was people telling me their stories, telling me, oh, don't worry, this judge had to retake. Oh, I had to retake professors, everyone else, but no one really talked about it. Especially at that time, it was like 2017.

Starting point is 00:02:37 And there was still a lot of shame attached to failure, especially in these inherently traditional fields like law. And I wanted to shed light on it. I knew I would actually pass it at some point and become a lawyer because I was very determined and I did do that. And I wrote a blog post and that resonated with a lot of people. And it made me realize, okay, there's a gap in the market here. People want to hear these stories. They want to feel less alone. What can I do about this? So a couple of years later, because I started my attorney life, which was very busy, I had a little bit of a lull in my cases in 2020. And I just really wanted to be creative. And I thought podcasting. I'm a

Starting point is 00:03:19 podcast girly. I always listen to podcasts. I've been listening to them for so long. And so I thought, why not shed light on the humanity behind success? So let's talk about the setbacks. Let's talk about failure. Let's talk about pivots. Let's talk about finding purpose, whatever it may be, the doubts, all the things that you don't get to see on social media and on LinkedIn, all the highlights so that people can feel less alone. And so I started No Straight Path. I put out the teaser a couple of years later still. It's taken time just because life happens. And I actually put it out on February 17th, 2022, the teaser with no expectation, no goals, just wanted to put this art into the world. It was in desire, was on my heart, something that my mom would say. And it was to honor her, to honor her memory. She was a huge storyteller and it was the year of the anniversary of her

Starting point is 00:04:19 passing. And so that's really why I did it. And then three weeks later, HubSpot, they reached out to me to join their podcast network. And so I always say it was just like divine timing. My mom completely blessed this whole thing. And it has been an incredible journey. I will say that I, at the time, was practicing white collar investigations. So when they reached out to me, I didn't really know what an accelerator program was, what a creator really was. I was deep in the weeds in my legal career. And so I came in as a novice, but I think it was actually extremely helpful for the growth of my show and just me being brave and kind of going forward with it because I didn't know much about the industry initially.

Starting point is 00:05:10 Oh my gosh, I love hearing that. And I just think that resonates with so many people out there. They're all looking to do something creative that really helps people. And that's what you're doing with your show. And I think that's incredible. You mentioned that you stepped away from practicing law to pursue this podcast. Do you have any tips for people out there who, you know, want to make a career pivot like that? Yeah, yeah. So I was fortunate to be in HubSpot's accelerator program. And there were a lot of milestones that I had to hit. And as far as growth and numbers and speaking events I had to do, which was wonderful. But simultaneously, I was also juggling a really busy legal practice. And in addition to that, I was planning my wedding. So I was married, but we were a pandemic couple. So we were finally having our big wedding.

Starting point is 00:05:56 So to be quite frank with you, it came from a place of necessity in that I had to figure out, I've got to take something off my plate. And I tried, I tried for six months to do it, and it led to complete burnout. And it was something that I really didn't want to give up on. I had a certain amount of months to try to continue to grow the podcast. And so I thought, I've got to go for it. It's, I love it. Number one, I'm passionate about storytelling. It's something that makes me come alive is what I feel, especially because it was out during a time of grief. So it helped me like really live again.

Starting point is 00:06:34 And so I wanted to give it a shot. And I also wanted to keep my job because I am a risk averse human. I always say I'm a practical dreamer. And so some, what I suggest to people is, you know, talk to your employer. I pitched a sabbatical and they said, yes, I talked to lots of different people and got answers from different people and did my research so that once I went to leadership, I had an answer for everything. I had people who could cover my cases. I had, I was very diligent about how I was going to present it to them. So instead of advocating for a client, I was advocating for

Starting point is 00:07:08 myself and they were, I was fortunate that they said yes. And so I was able to embark on this journey. I wasn't getting paid, but still have my job if I wanted to return. And so I think that you don't always have to quit your job. You don't always, there's ways you can always take a sabbatical. There are ways to side hustle and there are ways to do it because I know that everybody's financial situation is different. Well, that's so good. And I know we can both definitely resonate with just that feeling of overwhelm and having to make a tough decision to step away from something. And I know there's a lot of marketers and professionals out there feeling something similar, but they're afraid of, you know, backlash for that decision or going to leadership.

Starting point is 00:07:54 And so I'm curious, do you have any just encouragement or word of advice for approaching those kind of conversations and just building the confidence to asking for kind of a new adaption of what you're currently doing professionally? Yeah. So I think the first thing is try to find examples of other people who've done something similar. So the legal industry, as I said, is very traditional. They're like a podcast. What are you talking about, girl? So, but people had left for, for political campaigns. People had left for clerkships. They left for different things. And so I showed how it was quite similar in that you're just taking time to build a different skillset. And I really did. I mean, I, I built marketing skills and we can talk about that later

Starting point is 00:08:41 about how that's helping me in my new current role. But I do think that one, find the people that have done something similar so you can cite those examples. And this is some general career advice. I will say being able to have a big ask, you do want to have some relationships at whatever workplace you have. So I think it's important to always continue to build community and relationships so you can engender trust. And so what happened for me is thankfully,

Starting point is 00:09:12 people in leadership, I had worked for some of those partners. I had impressed those partners. I had gone to witness interviews with some of those partners. So it was really great to be able to go up to them and say, hey, this is my dream. And I think the other thing is these organizations are made of people.

Starting point is 00:09:29 We're all human, right? And if something is your dream, I remember one partner, he didn't really get it, but he said to me, you sound so passionate. I'm not going to stand in the way between you and your dreams. He's like, I'd rather you stay and run this case because I had plans for you. But you know, so I think that like bringing the passion and the why, talking to other people and then figuring out the best way to present it because every person's personality is different. So someone's going to be like, I don't care about your dream or what you're doing. How are we going to cover the work? Do you have thoughts about this? Another person that might appeal to them. So it's also kind of like

Starting point is 00:10:09 really talking to the people who know the other people that you need to talk to, to get the inside information so you can present it accordingly. And it's very similar to marketing. Know your audience. So good. Yeah. And I think employers just overall appreciate transparency and vice versa we as as team members appreciate our leaders transparencies and so kind of setting that precedent for trust in that relationship I think gives you a little bit more confidence when you're presenting maybe a sabbatical or even a new campaign or idea to where you might be a little afraid of presenting that because it's something a little bit crazy. But yeah, trust is the foundation with any relationship, especially in career. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's talk. You mentioned storytelling. So I want to

Starting point is 00:10:55 talk about that a little bit. So why do you believe in storytelling and how do you feel it contributes to just connecting people, inspiring them and building empathy across different people groups and listeners and community members that you have? Yeah. So I always say this, I think storytelling, it changes lives and it has certainly changed my life. I think that when it comes to the inspiration part, just being able to see someone else do something that you aim to achieve helps give you that extra boost of confidence to go out and do it. Kind of like what we're talking about, even if it is just kind of putting out that new or pitching that new campaign to someone. If you see someone else do it, it's just, it's, we're

Starting point is 00:11:42 human. So we're taking in all these different data points and we may not even realize it, but a lot of it is connected to story. And in addition to story inspiring action, it also allows us to connect to one another because we can see ourselves in each other's stories. And even if there isn't a exact link or exact overlap, we can still get more empathy because we can understand that at least the emotion or at least the challenge that someone is going through. So you may not have experienced the same thing, but you can still connect to their story. And I think that stories allow, it allows us to see more than the social media highlights, than the curated news feeds that we might create. It allows us to see all the parts and that includes the messy human

Starting point is 00:12:32 parts. And so then you're able to have more empathy and honestly become a better person, right? I think sometimes, you know, we also judge, like, I think it is a normal thing to do is you judge people for when you see them or you make quick mental shortcuts about someone. And then as soon as you hear someone's story, they always become more beautiful to me. They always become more relatable. And I think it's such a powerful tool that we don't always get to tap into. And I even suggest it in careers. And so we can do it in podcasting because I think it's like everybody was so cool about podcasting too, is I feel like everyone's a storyteller.

Starting point is 00:13:16 So when you go to those big conferences, like you go to podcast movement, it's so amazing because you're just connecting with people and most people are pretty open and we're sharing our stories and everyone has an interesting story and we know how to tell it. And it's just, I'm with my people and I'm vibing. But sometimes when I'm navigating more traditionally corporate spaces, your interactions can be quite transactional. And the way that I break that down is I lead with storytelling. I lead with vulnerability. I recently started a new role and I shared my story and then everybody on the team shared their stories. And then other people on the team said, I didn't even know that about so-and-so. Because sometimes we're so caught up in our work, understandably, there's a lot of deadlines, external factors and pressures,

Starting point is 00:14:01 we lose the story and the humanity. And that's what's going to bring out our best selves, our best work. It's going to foster community. And so I think it's the thing that we should always hold on to. Yeah, for sure. Well, and storytelling obviously should and can be infused on a number of different channels through email, social, et cetera. There's a number of ways to kind of project that out there to community members and audiences. But how is podcasting unique in bringing these stories to life and even just building a deep connection with your audience versus maybe some other platforms out there? Yeah, I think one, access. I think that no matter what you're doing in your life, I feel like you can access a podcast and you could be doing your laundry. You can be driving on your commute. Like I think it's something that is readily and always accessible to lots of people, especially people who need to multitask. And that's a a lot most of us in our busy lives and so I've noticed with podcasting is that even on vacations even during a holiday you still want to connect

Starting point is 00:15:13 with your favorite podcasters you still want to listen to your favorite podcast over the holiday at least I do and I think with other platforms I usually take a break. I mean, I have the time to read through a newsletter that day, or, you know, sometimes I take social media breaks as well, but I don't ever take a podcasting break. And so I think that the accessibility makes it really different. And I think that when you say come to life, I like that wording. I like that, um, that language because you get to hear the people, like someone's voice and, and depending on the podcast, you get to see them. And so there's a deeper connection because you're really able to kind of understand them, I think in a deeper way. And, And then sometimes, you know, your favorite

Starting point is 00:16:07 podcasters in your head or your best friends in your head, you don't even know them. Like some of my favorite podcasters, my best friends in my head. And then I finally met them. I was like, you know, like we go way back. I don't know if you know this. And I have a really good friend of mine who said the same thing to me. People think we, she's also a lawyer. They think we met in law school, but no, she listened to my podcast and now we're close friends. So it also just like, there's this comfort and familiarity. I think that allows you to connect deeply with listeners and it's pretty beautiful. Absolutely. We talk all the time about how it's like one of the most, you know, intimate one-on-one

Starting point is 00:16:44 connections that you can have with one of your audience members out there. Cause you're right. They do feel very connected to you and they're listening to you every week and dedicating, you know, 30, 45 an hour to what you're having to share that week. It's, it's a huge way to just really foster that connection. And I think you touched on this, but I think that humans are really built for community. And a lot of times, especially after the pandemic, you know, we're struggling to find that. So we are finding that in outlets like social media or podcasting or, you know, trying to find those one-on-one connections with people. And I think podcasting is a great opportunity to kind of, you know, bring people together

Starting point is 00:17:24 in that way. So I love that. I want to really quickly just ask you, because you talk about how you're such a podcast girl yourself. What are some of your favorites? We have to know. Yes. So I really love, none of my stuff though is like business and marketing, which is crazy

Starting point is 00:17:41 because I need it. I know, which is okay. Because I'm more of like an interior life feelings type person. So I love Glennon Doyle. We can do hard things. I also actually do for my podcasting business. It's been helpful. Side Hustle Pro by Nikala Matthews Akome. And I'm so sad that Brene Brown's podcast was discontinued, but I mean, not she, she discontinued herself. She's doing something else, but whatever Brene Brown does, I like to consume. And what was I, and I'm also been listening to just a lot of, I just transitioned into DEI work. And so been listening more to those kinds of kind of like diversity, equity, and inclusion kind of podcast just to learn more.

Starting point is 00:18:32 And it's been a lot of fun. And I've always loved the daily. And I love Modern Love. Modern Love was my first podcast with the New York Times. I've been listening to them since like 2014. So, yeah. That's Times. I've been listening to them since like 2014. So yeah. I love that. And we always ask people, you know, what are some of your favorite podcasts? A lot of times it's just like the lifestyle, you know, trying to, you know, get some connection in other areas, not just your career. So I love hearing from you what you're learning and what you love.

Starting point is 00:19:02 So I want to touch on what you're doing now too, with, within the DEI role that you hold and some of the things that you've learned throughout your podcasting journey that you spoke to taught you a lot about marketing and things like that. Could you develop that a little bit more for us? Yeah. Yeah. So it's actually been such a great transition before my sabbatical. I was thinking about where I wanted to go next in my career because, and this was where the manifesting comes in again, I wrote to myself in 2019, I like my lawyer work, but I'm missing deep human connection. I don't know how I'm going to get it.

Starting point is 00:19:43 I know it might sound a little silly to write this down, but I need to figure out how I can get more of this into my life. And then fast forward later, I was able to do the podcast and I started to think about this human part. And I just became so fascinated with the intersection of work at the intersection of humanity and career. So that's where our personal and professional lives intersect. That's DEI. That's authenticity. That's well-being. That's work-life balance, work-life integration, whatever phrase you want to use.

Starting point is 00:20:17 That's parenting. You know, when these, we're not, we're full humans. And so how can we balance, how can we honor our work, but also honor our life outside of work? And so all of these questions are things I love delving into and digging into. And I was fortunate to get a job at a global law firm. So I'm still in the similar space. I'm still at a big law firm, but now I'm on the

Starting point is 00:20:45 diversity side. And when I was an associate at my firm, I did a lot of the DEI work already. And I was really passionate about that. And I noticed that I kind of lit up doing that work. And so now that I'm in this role, the podcast has actually been so helpful because we are working on a podcast and they've been asking about my input. They asked to see my newsletter when I was interviewing because they wanted to see my kind of my writing skills and marketing skills. And I've been working a lot with the marketing team. I'm head of comms for DEI. And so all things that I actually did not learn from practicing law, I actually learned from podcasting. There's a big skill set there that's really applicable to the work that I'm doing now.

Starting point is 00:21:30 And so it's been incredible. You never know what, you know, your podcasting, marketing journey, whatever journey you're on, how that can influence and help you in your next role. And so it's just fascinating. The thing that I worked so hard for, which I'm grateful for, and it does help me being a former attorney is extremely helpful for this role, but this, the podcast is actually very helpful as well. So, yeah. Yeah. That kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier, just building trust with your team and your leaders, because I think paying attention personally to the areas that you get super excited about and may not necessarily be tied to your current role,

Starting point is 00:22:12 but just speaking up and sharing, Hey, I'm really passionate about DE&I or I'm passionate about business development or whatever it is and letting your leader know that. And maybe there's a way to kind of implement some of those tasks in your day to day so that you can kind of practice your passion in that way. So that's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. That's exactly how it happened. Absolutely. Well, we have to ask about just podcast growth as well. You kind of alluded to some of those benchmarks you had to hit. And so curious if there were any specific strategies or tactics that you found particularly effective just for building your podcast community over time.

Starting point is 00:22:53 Yeah, absolutely. So the first thing I'll say is podcast guest swaps, I think has been the most effective way to market the podcast because you get to connect with someone else who is in similar kind of audience. And that audience tends to be sticky because they, if they like you and you're similar to the person that you're going on to their show. And so there's usually like a synergy there and a connectivity where those guests are actually, or those listeners are interested in coming, you know, and checking your show out. And so I think podcast guest swaps are extremely helpful. And I think that as opposed to, because I think there's

Starting point is 00:23:35 sometimes, you know, people think a big guest will get a lot of listeners and sometimes it does, but usually you want to get people who listen, but usually you want to get people who listen to podcasts and you want to get people who are, would be a likely listener for you. And so even just going on smaller shows and continuing to just connect with other podcasters, I think has been extremely helpful because not only do you get to do the guest swap and you tap into their audience, then you've built a connection with another podcaster and then you can figure out ways to collaborate in the future.

Starting point is 00:24:11 And so that's certainly happened. And then you build relationships and it's also just so much fun. And so I think that when you're enjoying it and you're connecting with like-minded people, it's easier to grow too because you wanna do more of that. And I think that's actually been the most helpful way. I have some listeners that are, we talk a lot on LinkedIn

Starting point is 00:24:31 and they heard me on Jenna Kutcher's show. And so that was extremely helpful. And so I think that also getting on the big shows, if you can,, and then the guest swaps I think are extremely helpful. And then the organic growth of showing up on different social media platforms. I feel like there's a pressure to show up on every social media platform and do all the things. And I think it's really challenging to do that. So I think it's important to figure out what social platforms you enjoy and focus on those. And so I'm a millennial, so I'm an Instagram girly. I haven't left them. I might do TikTok at some point, but I do a lot of Instagram and I do post on LinkedIn and I've noticed those two platforms for me have been quite helpful. Yeah, absolutely.

Starting point is 00:25:29 And I think the two biggest platforms for us are like that have seen the most growth for our show or even LinkedIn and threads right now. As of this recording in January of 2024, we've been growing a lot on threads, which is really, really cool. So even the, you know, new platforms that you're not really sure about, you know, just dive right in and try to, you know, figure out if your audience is there and if they are great, if they're not move on. I think that's great advice. I'm curious to hear from you too.

Starting point is 00:25:55 What do you know now that you wish you knew earlier on in your career? I'm sure you have a ton of answers to this, but if you just think of one that if you could pass on to your younger self, what would you say? Yeah. Yeah. So I think it would be that I am not defined by my career. I am not defined by what I produce. As I mentioned earlier, because I was such an overachiever, I moved through my work and my journey with more anxiety than I would have liked. And I think that if I would have been able to take a broader perspective of who I am as a human and focus more on those qualities that helped me become successful in my career.

Starting point is 00:26:39 So it's the resilience, it's being hardworking, it's being intellectual and creative, it's being a great, you know, collaborator, someone who's a good leader, all those things, work on those skills and be grateful for those qualities that you have. And define yourself more by that because careers come and go, money comes and goes, but your anchor is yourself. And now I move to the world with so much more confidence. Even starting this new role, it's just been so wonderful because I know who I am. I know what I want and I have a vision. And I think in order to have a vision for your life, you need to understand yourself and you need to define yourself by those qualities and not by these outside factors. And I think that's something that I wish I would have known, but I'm glad I know it now. Awesome. Well, congratulations on just your new role in

Starting point is 00:27:37 everything that you've been able to accomplish through your show and all the people you've been able to impact are excited to continue watching you grow and develop and everything that you're doing. But speaking of that, we'd love to stay in touch with you just as everything grows and develops, like we said. So do you mind sharing with us a little bit more about where we can find your podcast, your social channels that you were talking about earlier? Where can we stay connected with you online? Yeah, absolutely. First off, this has been an amazing conversation. You're both great. Thank you so much for having me. And yes, I'd love to connect. I'm on LinkedIn at Ashley Menzies Babatunde. I respond, I'm here and also on Instagram. So the no straight path Instagram

Starting point is 00:28:22 is no underscore straight underscore path. And then from there, you'll also be able to see my personal Instagram that you could link to as well. And I'm happy to connect there as well. Awesome. Ashley, thank you so much. This has been such a refreshing conversation and a great way to start the day. So appreciate you coming on and sharing your story with us today. Absolutely. Thank you for having me. We are so excited to share that our first ever free Marketing Happy Hour digital resource is now available. Download the Dream Career Game Plan today at marketinghappyhr.com forward slash freebie. That's marketinghappyhr.com forward slash freebie. This five-step workbook will guide you through defining your goals,

Starting point is 00:29:13 building your network, diversifying your skills, influencing where you're at, and investing in your growth. Cassie and I created this resource with marketing careers in mind, but the framework can be applied to any industry. Our hope is that this workbook will help you truly elevate your career, whether you're in the market for a new position or just looking to make your mark in your current organization. No matter where this resource finds you, we are cheering you on every step of the way. So go check it out at marketinghappyhr.com forward slash freebie to download and make your career dreams come true.

Marketing Happy Hour - Is it Time for a Career Shift? | Ashley Menzies Babatunde of No Straight Path

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