Marketing Happy Hour - It's ALL About Relationships | Jennie Toutoulis (PR, Celebrity, Partnerships & Advocacy)

Starting point is 00:00:00 you're listening to the marketing happy hour podcast where we discuss career and industry insights with our peers in marketing we're here to talk about it all like the ups and downs of working in social media how to build authentic relationships in the influencer and pr space managing a nine-to-five and a side hustle at the same time, how to be productive in your life and career without losing your sanity, and more. Ultimately, we're here to build a community with you because we're all trying to navigate the world of marketing together. Are you ready? Grab your favorite drink and join your hosts, Cassie and Erica, for this week's episode. This week, we are chatting with Jenny Tatoulis, Senior Manager of PR, Celebrity Partnerships, and Advocacy at a major beauty

Starting point is 00:00:55 brand, one that Cassie and I are such fans of. In this episode, Jenny shares a peek into her career journey, her best advice for those looking to enter the beauty and or PR space, a look at what she values in working relationships and in partnerships for the brand, and her predictions for the future of PR as we inch closer to 2025. Grab your favorite drink and let's listen in. Hi, Jenny. Welcome to Marketing Happy Hour. Hi, thanks for having me. Absolutely. We're so stoked to talk to you and just learn about everything that you've been up to recently in your career and even outside of it too. But first we have to ask what has been in your glass recently? Right now I have a Diet Coke, always my like mid-afternoon treat. So that's what I've been

Starting point is 00:01:43 having in my glass lately. But if I had a poppy, it would be a poppy. Got to be. Oh my gosh. Which is your favorite flavor of poppy? Okay. I feel like this is an unpopular opinion, but I'm a ginger lime girl. Oh my gosh. Yeah, that is. I will say that is unpopular. I don't think I've heard that answer. But I love it. Oh man. I love'll take but I love it oh man I love anything ginger I'm not sure if I've had that one or not but I feel like I might like that too I'll have to check that out yeah it's the one I'm always like the first one to suggest but then like a strawberry lemon or that's awesome one that just came out but ginger lime girl love it

Starting point is 00:02:21 love it I um I currently have a kombucha this afternoon which I feel like when we first started the show I always had kombucha haven't had it in a while but that's what I'm sipping on today kind of out of the ordinary for me but Erica what about you um well no one listening will be shocked to hear that I have an Ouroboros I feel like I have a different flavor every day so this one is grapefruit elderflower. It's really good. I don't know if it's like top five flavors for me, but it's still really, really good. Highly recommend any of their flavors. I don't know, Jenny, if you've tried this brand, but it's so good. I've never heard of this. Oh my gosh. It's at like Whole Foods,

Starting point is 00:03:00 Sprouts. I feel like I'm their spokesperson. I'm'm like we need to get someone from their team on the show like I gotta I need to grill them about I'm like I am putting in the work for this brand like I'm like don't worry about it I've got you on the ground love it love it so much well okay speaking of you know your work and things that you're actually doing I would love to hear what kind of led you to your current role as assistant manager and PR celebrity and partnerships at a major beauty brand. Yeah, I feel like it's been such a funky journey because I really started in entertainment in college. That was kind of like my jam. I was the pop culture friend. So I started at Bravo and then I went to like, stayed in the NBC family, was at like SNL and Fallon and those shows, did MTV and was like, I'm a TV girl. I'm an entertainment girl. Don't talk, don't text. Like I was pretty committed to PR, I've always liked a lot of a lot of different things.

Starting point is 00:04:06 And I didn't want to be like just a marketing person or just a finance actually was never in the question. Not a numbers girl. But I loved PR because it was a little bit of everything. And so then I knew senior year if I wanted to change industries, that was kind of like my time to do it if the opportunity presented itself. And luckily it did. I spent the year at Tarte Cosmetics. So I was in their influencer space for a year, which was so fun. A, as an intern to just be a college kid doing that and playing with all the makeup and stuff. And then also it was right around when TikTok started. And so that was a zillennial dream was explaining the renegade, who Charlie D'Amelio was to like these executives.

Starting point is 00:04:47 And I found that I really loved beauty. And I always joked to my friends, like, I can't believe I'm in the beauty space now. Like, so not me. And one of my best friends, we always joke about it now, but she lived next door to me freshman year. And then we lived together pretty much

Starting point is 00:05:01 throughout the rest of our college years. She was like, you would come over every Friday night with four nude lipsticks and ask me which one you should wear. And I would say they all looked the same. And I would reply that they all have different undertones. They're not the same. Like I was doing makeup for everybody for like dances and tutorials and whatever. So everyone was like, you actually couldn't read yourself for five seconds.

Starting point is 00:05:21 Like you're a beauty girl just as much as you were the pop culture friend so then obviously Tarte was like an amazing experience learned so much got to really like figure it all out and watch from the sidelines as interns kind of get to do and then COVID happened which actually Cassie I know we've spoken for both Disney girls and I was actually meant to do a DCP so for those that don't know, it's a Disney college program. You go down there, you get to work at the parks. And that was kind of my like, yeah, employment plan. And I didn't tell anyone I was applying. It was like a big dream of mine. Got it. Fortunately, the program didn't happen because of COVID. So I was kind of like, okay, what next? Tartt was able to bring me back and kind of like

Starting point is 00:06:06 that same internship capacity because everyone was kind of just figuring out how to work in the pandemic. Spent some time back there really like heightening that role because they were such a small but mighty team at the time. And that was kind of like a sink or swim, like we trust you, go do influencer outreach and go do all, like, we trust you, like, go do influencer outreach and go do all these things that, you know, we trust you to do as this, like, intern, kind of higher intern capacity. And then, of course, you know, the time comes or you just are ready for full time. And at that point, Tart and a lot of companies, I think, just weren't quite expanding yet into full time roles and bringing bringing all of that like full max capacity team back and so I felt ready they weren't able and it

Starting point is 00:06:51 was like I always say it's one of like the was one of the like saddest days of my like young career was like calling my boss and telling her like I have this new amazing opportunity I just have to go for like you know my gut and also like what is ready for me next. And she was fully supportive. You know, it was like obviously devastating, but I knew it was like the right next step. And now I will be in this current role with this company for three years next month. And so it was kind of like a natural elevation in terms of like the prestige category still within beauty, but also because my role does involve like celebrity and red carpet and things like that, that entertainment

Starting point is 00:07:30 background kind of like supplemented it. And so I was able to have all of my like experience like emulsified in this one role. And so it was like, it felt like very natural steps. I just never knew what was next until it was there. Oh my gosh, that's so cool. And that really speaks to something that we talk about a lot on this show, which is like, you never know where these individual experiences are going to lead

Starting point is 00:07:55 and how they're gonna end up playing out in your future career moves or just life moves in general. And so seeing how like your early experience and then your hand in the beauty world just kind of like mesh together is really, really cool to hear just like a firsthand perspective of that, like playing out in your career. One thing I wanted to touch on too, you mentioned in some previous conversations with us in our intake form that you had a pivotal mentor and internship that opened the doors for you in PR. I'm assuming that

Starting point is 00:08:27 is the TART internship. So could you just tell us the story of how you found that mentor and how you grew that like mentor mentee relationship and how it still kind of plays out in your career today? Yeah. Yeah. So actually funny enough, it's, it's the Bravo internship. And so, okay. Which is, so it goes all the way back, which is so crazy is that I'm still talking about it like more than five years later. But are you with her campus at all? I feel like maybe online women's magazine, you know, college campuses. So my school didn't have I went to Fairfield University. We didn't have sororities. So if you wanted to be like a little girly and like the media comm space like that was where you went. And so I was writing for her campus my freshman year, essentially going into my sophomore year an opportunity presented itself for me to take on the editor in chief role which very crazy for an undergrad to do that, or an underclassman to do that. But they sent me to her

Starting point is 00:09:25 conference that summer before to kind of like network. And to make that long story short, Saturday, I found out what an informational interview was. Sunday at the panels and like at the conference, there was this panel of PR professionals. Obviously every girl that was at the conference wanted to be in that room. They like someone from MTV someone from Bravo like some of the best in the biz at that panel so I got there when I thought it was a little late so I had to stand in the back and I had the business like the dress code was business casual but like I didn't really want to wear slacks in New York in the summer so I had like bell-bottom jeans on like a little off the shoulder top and like a little necktie which is this is like 2016-17 no probably like 17 so like very like that time like this is like maybe there's an elevated person of this outfit probably for 2024

Starting point is 00:10:18 but I was like I'm so cute and chic but whatever whatever. So after the conference, after they spoke on the panel, I went up to this woman who was the head at the time of PR at Bravo. She was like amazing. And I went up to ask her for an informational. And she was like, before you like say anything, she was like, you walked in the room. I loved your energy. I love your outfit. Send me an email with the subject line, Jenny with the cute scarf.

Starting point is 00:10:43 Come to my office at 30 Rock. Let's have a coffee. And I was like, well, that's exactly what I was come to my office at 30 Rock, let's have a coffee. And I was like, well, that's exactly what I was going to ask you for. So let's hang out. So then I went and met her for coffee. She had looked me up on her campus and the internet. And I had written articles about like Drake lyrics and whatever. And she was like, I love all the things you love. And like, you're so like fun. Like, do you want an internship? And I was like, yeah, girl. So I wasn't eligible that fall. They had already hired.

Starting point is 00:11:09 So that spring of my sophomore year, I was able to join the comms team at Bravo, met and the other intern who was still one of my best friends to this day. But I like always love that story because the number one thing I get asked is like, how did you get into the industry? Like, how do you start? Like, you know, it's my application is going nowhere. And like, truly from that point, like her name is Imani Ellis. She is like the best of the best. Like she's now since left Bravo started culture con, like she has made her own space at a table. Like I've never seen anybody do before, but she has just championed me throughout my whole career

Starting point is 00:11:45 she has always been someone that I'll like email to or even in the pandemic I was like I need book recs like just like give me something to like keep this all like I know this is going somewhere and she just like championed me so hard and like was constantly opening the door and like not necessarily like holding my hand but like'd let me go and do my thing. And it was my responsibility to like sink or swim on behalf of her though. And I felt such a responsibility to her, but it was all because I wore a cute outfit. So it's like, you truly never know where that's all going to come from, but we hit it off and you know, to this day, she's someone I'm like constantly thinking of and emailing.

Starting point is 00:12:23 Oh my gosh. That's so cool. I feel like there's also like some lessons in there, especially for young professionals of like, say yes and figure it out later. Like you said, you're like, I didn't know what an informational interview was, but you just, you just went for it, you know? So that, and then also just like confidence and like embracing your own personal identity and, and just, you know, standing out confidence, that kind of thing. So really awesome. Thank you for sharing that. So I want to talk about your typical day in the life and your role. What does your day to day look like? I'm sure it's pretty

Starting point is 00:12:58 different depending on what you guys are working on, but give us a little look into into your day. Yeah. I, like you said, I feel like the age old question is every day is different, but I think that's like the most fun part about PR and marketing. It's like, you kind of know where you're going to get into, but your day could like take a turn in like an hour. But yeah, right. Typically for me, it's obviously in taking a lot of press requests and whether that's about the products or we have a lot of like talent that we're really lucky to have within the brand and so I manage a few of those relationships so whether that's editors coming to me for interviews or me pitching um our talent for interviews and kind of trying to get their expertise out there because I think what's so different coming from Tarte to now the brand I'm currently at is there's so much

Starting point is 00:13:45 artistry and beauty and makeup and education is like really so important so it's my responsibility to help our brand educate the public and not just the products but like application what works for you and so it's really finding opportunities to get those messages out there and then you know whatever campaigns we're working on whether whether that's receiving, you know, the assets and the videos, giving feedback to our global teams on, you know, what's best for our region and what we think is going to succeed and do well.

Starting point is 00:14:14 Of course, it's a lot of, and it's always going to be a lot of sending out products to makeup artists and celebrity friends of the brand. And of course, the influencer team is sending out to influencers and keeping the products in the hands of our advocates and the people who are out there testing and using and trying. And that's always kind of like a task that I think discourages a lot of people, but on

Starting point is 00:14:35 a good day, it's like really exciting to know like this package is going to this person and then it could end up in a Vogue Beauty Secrets or like they could be talking about their favorite product. And so there's definitely a few moments where I'm like I definitely sent that to them like that that's there because of me um so always doing things like that red carpet seasons honestly like our Super Bowl so like January to May we're constantly kind of like in conversations about who's nominated like where are we going to be? What are we going to do? What launches are coming and things like that. And it's really just like a lot of a lot. I love to joke, like, you know, we have TV opportunities or like I said, print and press opportunities. And sometimes

Starting point is 00:15:16 we get like random celebrity, like things across our desk where I'm like, all right, like this is going to take up the rest of my day, but we're just going to do it. And it's, it's hard and it's, it's a blessing and also a busyness that so many people love our brand that you're always just on your toes. Yeah, absolutely. Well, and speaking of that too, I feel like you probably have a lot of inquiries and people who want to work with you too. So I'm curious, just how do you identify the right people to collaborate with that kind of match your brand essence, what you guys are going for, your goals, et cetera. What does that process look like? Yeah. I think what I've really loved the most about my job is I've gotten a lot of like leniency and trust to kind of do things at my level like that and identify talent

Starting point is 00:16:06 and so for me and it's definitely on behalf of the brand it's we are really lucky to have a founder that you know she's like beauty's for everyone everywhere and like I want everything to be easy to use I want you to be able to be like super glam or super chill and so like for me you know I've been able to talk to someone like Chelsea Cutler where she's like, I just love like sticking my finger in eyeshadow and like whacking it on. And then like, you know, Meg Maroney, who's like she's like uses five different lip products. And she's like, that's my everyday lip. And I'm like, Meg, like I am lucky if I put on a lip gloss sometimes. us it's someone who is embodying of like that like confidence and that positivity and that like message that again like we are just so lucky to have like such a strong through line of like

Starting point is 00:16:52 our brand founder and what she makes people feel and so therefore we kind of look for people who also make that them feel that way um you know like we have some talent that are part of our family that have like paved the way in their you know like we have some talent that are part of our family that have like paved the way in their, you know, like communities and their genres that like really resonate with people and make them feel seen. And that's sort of what I'm always looking for. And also I try to look for it in like smaller pockets on my level. And I try to find little communities and little, you know, talent that have like really strong followings or speak about, you know, certain things or if it's an insecurity and I'm like, hey, like you might like these things and it might make you feel better. And that's to me, like, obviously when

Starting point is 00:17:34 I'm looking for talent and bringing suggestions to the table and whatnot, that's something I'm always thinking of. But it's always just that feeling. And that's what I love about beauty. Like it could be a celebrity. It could be my mother. It could be like my boss. Like if that makes you feel good and you are like out and spreading that, I'm like, that is what I'm always going to look for across the whole thing. Cause that's even on a bad day, you know, you're making people feel good. And so it's like, that's the message and that's enough. So that's always like top of mind. For sure. Well, and I want to ask you to kind of more about that founder presence. We talk to brands all the time who have that iconic founder,

Starting point is 00:18:10 that's kind of the face of the brand and is able to make that human to human connection with the consumers. So how important do you feel that is for you all to have that, that kind of human touch point, I guess, with the brand. And she has such a warming, calming presence. So I'm sure that helps too with that deeper connection and relatability factor. But what has that been like for you all just to create that connection, especially online where everything is, unless you're touching and feeling the product, everything is kind of digital? Yeah. I think it's as the beauty industry gets more and more saturated and whether you think that's a good thing or a bad thing, I think everyone feels

Starting point is 00:18:51 differently about it. But at the end of the day, it's significantly grown and people just want to feel seen and feel good and feel like recognized. And so, you know, internally and externally, we're so lucky to have kind of that community naturally built within our company that it's it's so spread out and it's so like loving and endearing and like everything just feels like a warm like hug like your crazy relatives are in town and like you're just like so excited and everything's so like elevated and happy and it makes you kind of like forget everything else for a second and then it kind of trickles down into like the work that we do and the networks that we maintain and, and even like the networks that we're like outreaching to and bringing in. It's like, I want to remember like that you're, you just got a dog. And like, I want to like hear about your like disaster day at the hair salon. Like we could talk about lipsticks in a second. Like, and I think that that is like beauty is such a memory too. Like I like have such fond memories and I connect, like, I will still use a product

Starting point is 00:19:49 if I like have a good memory from it. And like, it could be the worst lipstick in the world. And I'm like, oh, but it was like, huh? Like, yeah, I still wear it. So if people can correlate the products and the brand and the memory and the story, like that's going to outstand like a viral like story, like, that's going to outstand, like, a viral, like, moment. Like, that's always going to. And we get stories like that all the time, where, like, you know, like, my dad had X-Men. I just threw him my cream. And it was, like,

Starting point is 00:20:15 he just felt so much better. And could another cream have done that? Maybe. But, like, for whatever reason, you chose us. And, like, we want to now choose you. And so it's, it's really special. And I think that that's going to be like, hopefully something that long stands us and, you know, other brands invest their time in. Cause you know, it's, it's people first always. Yeah. Well, and speaking of that too, relationships in the talent influencer, uh, celebrity space, I'm sure is very, very incredibly important. Um, so being that it is so relationship driven, the space that you're in, do you have any tips for authentically building relationships in your space, but also just in career in general? I know you already talked about building a relationship with your mentor and what that was like. But just any tips

Starting point is 00:21:05 for making that connection with other people? Yeah, I think what was a little like nerve wracking to me and doing that, like I thought it was going to be so hard. I thought everyone was going to be like New York cutthroat, like move out of my way. And like, truly some of it has been so easy. Like I will say like PR girls and like the kind of like a young age group and kind of all in the same realm, everyone just like wants to be friends and needs that support. And so in terms of like building that network of like colleagues, even though we don't necessarily work together is so easy because we all have the same bad days and we all have the same good days.

Starting point is 00:21:42 And it's like, really, I think everyone sees the value and importance of being able to talk to someone like, Hey, like this mailer is delayed. Like I'm stressed. Like, it's not going to be the same bad day as like my friend who's a nurse or a lawyer. So like building that relationship, like I always say people like Instagram is your best friend, like get on there, DM the girls, like go out for coffees and like make those relationships. They don't have to be your best friends, but colleagues, like, I mean, some of my best friends have come from the industry, but it's also just like so nice. But in terms of entertainment and like friends that are like repping, you know, record labels and things like that, I've gotten

Starting point is 00:22:21 a lot of, it's gone both ways. I've cold called them, they've cold called me a lot of it's gone both ways I've cold called them they've cold called me and typically it's kind of like this is what we have going on or like I would love to hear more about the talent that you have or you know we're looking we have these launches coming up like would love to gift anyone on your roster that you think would like it but then also for me and this is kind of where I'm like is this good advice or is this just what I did but I have just always been like I've not muted a part of myself like at all throughout my career like I'm a fan girl through and through I could turn it off and be like okay I'm like working with talent like we're out of press day or we're in this position and I'm not going to be like hey love your work

Starting point is 00:23:00 but I have always been like okay love your like talent roster like this is so fun like I know I already know about the single that's coming out because I've already seen the teaser on TikTok like chronically online so I think also like when reps and people like that see that they're like oh I don't have to do the hard sell we could just talk shop essentially and so like I would always say like don't be afraid to like do that and like reach out to people that you're fans of first and then bring them into your world second because it they almost feel like more comfortable like their shoes are already off like their bags are down like they're like okay like I they know who I am like this is not um you know a hard sell so I've honestly like

Starting point is 00:23:42 I like what's the worst they're gonna to do? Not answer, say no. Like it's, it's one of those things. And so, um, yeah, like I like almost like be a fangirl and like, just be nice. Yeah. There's such a human element to that. And I think that applies to, to even just influencer and like, uh, your day-to-day interactions with agents or just influencers themselves that they don't have representation. It's like, uh, we're all human and we know what we're doing and we know what the eventual exchange is going to be, but building that relationship upfront and being like, Hey, I saw this post that you recently did.

Starting point is 00:24:15 That was so cool. Like brainstorming, like how can you, you know, bring that approach to this brand or whatever it may be. That's something that I do on my day to day. So I love hearing that from you too, that it's just like all about being a human and just connecting in that way. And I love that you are a fangirl of some of the people you work with. That's amazing. And sometimes it just like, doesn't even take that long to like, once you have that relationship, like I have a friend at a brand. Well, and I say friend, like we've grown to be friends over the course of a professional relationship but now I consider her a friend and she some of her talent had just been announced as like openers on like a major tour I just shot her a note and like there's no end game there's no you know like there's no business to talk right

Starting point is 00:24:57 now but it's like saw this amazing move thinking of you proud of you like just want you to know like your kudos they are coming from this corner. And yeah. And it's just like, it's, it's so easy. It's just like, there's nothing to be scared of. Yeah. A hundred percent. And people are like itching for that connection too. Cause it can be lonely, especially if you are like a talent agent and you're working in this like silo and you're just trying to like get deals and stuff. You're like, I wish that somebody would just reach out to me and like, you know, have a human human connection. So I love that. And then also you touched on like, interacting with just people in your industry in general, there's so many groups to like, I'm thinking of like women in influencer marketing, that's a that has a huge presence

Starting point is 00:25:38 in New York, like one of our past guests is like one of the representatives for that. There's like a lot of different groups that you can join, whether that's in person or online. And I would even say like the Marketing Happy Hour Insiders group, like if you're out there and you want people in your corner that are connections for you, definitely join that group. We have a Facebook group, a LinkedIn group, and it's just a great place to be because it can feel really lonely

Starting point is 00:26:03 and you don't want that when you're going through your career. So I love that. Yeah. And I wanted to talk to just kind of going off of that point, like what advice would you give? Say that you were like in one of these groups and somebody reached out and they were like, Hey, I really want to know how you got to where you are and like what I should do with the steps I should do are to like be in a similar position. So what advice would you give somebody aspiring to enter the beauty and PR industry, especially in today's digital first landscape? I know we've talked to a few other like PR representatives and we've been like, you know, is the mailer thing still a good idea? Like is the PR packages still a good idea Or are people just bombarded with that? Or like, what kind of inclusions and PR mailers are a good idea? And then just like overall, like, advice for people looking to get their product into the hands of talent out there today. Yeah. I think advice for someone looking to enter the landscape for me, I realized like the audience, like the students that I'm talking to are younger and younger. They're coming up

Starting point is 00:27:16 in a way more, like I consider myself a digital native. Like they are so far immersed in the internet. And what I found worked for me and I think will continue to work for what are they gen x I think or gen a whatever whoever's gonna make gen alpha I'm like who are they um I'm like a millennial like I'm a gen z but I'm on the cusp so it depends who I like align with but regardless I think what works for me and will continue to work for them if they do it well is at the end of the day everybody's chronically online as it is but would I like to say that we'll set everybody apart and not let that time be time wasted as if you're a conscious consumer of being critically online and so for me like and that's also how I kind of knew I wanted

Starting point is 00:28:02 to work in this space it was like yeah I'll watch your get ready with me or whatever was, you know, back on TikTok in 2020, but regardless, or even YouTube, like the OG days, like I'll watch that, but I'm like, okay, like, don't tell me we've seen you use this before when I watched every single video you've ever posted. And like, you haven't, or like, I, you like start to kind of think like, oh, this person would be really good with this brand or like I wonder why they haven't tried that product and you're kind of like thinking or like this collective group makes sense and you kind of like are making it up in your head and you're like seeing past the phone screen um and so like for me when I interviewed at Tarte I came up in like

Starting point is 00:28:41 the YouTube days like the Remy and the Leashes and like the like Bora Bora trip. That was like my, that was my Superbowl. Like where were they? Not Punta Cana. What was the trip that went viral? Dubai? Yeah. But everyone that like, like Bora Bora to me was what Dubai was to everybody else. And like so many creators that now some of them I'm lucky enough to like know no, but like, I was able to speak to that in my interview at Tarte. Like, yeah, I love beauty. Yeah. I love influencers. Like I'm growing up in all this space, but like your relationship with Remy and Alicia has evolved X, Y, Z. Like I've seen them use all of your stuff and then you've rewarded that. Like I've seen those things and I recognize them. And I remember them kind of being like, yeah, like we have, and that's been

Starting point is 00:29:23 the long game plan. And like, but I'm like, but I grew up watching that. Like that was my entertainment. And so I always tell students that I speak to that are younger, like, yeah, watch TikTok, scroll away, but like, don't walk away with brain rot and like a full Sephora cart, like walk away with like something else from that, whether that's like how, like what roped you in? Is it, hey guys, or is it like this lipstick's amazing. And then it's a cut, like pay attention to those things and take note. Cause that's the advice that someone older than you in a boardroom is going to turn to you and say, what did we need to do? And so that is like, it seems so simple, but everything else you'll learn, Everything else is going to happen.

Starting point is 00:30:05 You know, like I said, you could wear a cute scarf. You can have an alumni connection. Like how you get into the industry will change for everybody. But like if you can be prepared to say, oh, we need to say, hey, guys, or this like influencer, like the shades have never been deep enough. If we're going to do that, we need to go all the way. Like that's insight that some exec who's not chronically online won't have. So that's always my first bit of advice. To answer the second question about the mailers and the like progression of all of that kind of like delivery and that space, I think in terms

Starting point is 00:30:38 of a mailer, as long as it makes sense, it'll always work. So every brand does it differently. Every, some brands like the over the top some brands are like here's the product in a bubble mailer love you enjoy buy and I think as long as it fits the launch you're on the nose and if it's the brand of course there's always going to be conversations about like is this excessive do influencers really need another slip mask. Like, you know, what, when do we all stop? But the reality is we're all not talking. And so, you know, if one brand does something and the other brand already has it in action, it's, it's kind of like a tricky game, but I will say kind of on the counters, I think the people that are receiving those have been a little more conscious about

Starting point is 00:31:23 giving that away or receiving only brands. So it's definitely like a dual responsibility, but I think it's still entertaining and it'll always be something that's like going to be a question, unfortunately, but it's the most important thing for a brand to get their product into as many hands as possible, whether that's a consumer or an advocate. And so, I mean, for me, I'm really lucky, like sometimes talent and press are just like, just send it to me in a box. And then they don't really need the whole like kind of song and dance. And then sometimes they want the elaborate to do.

Starting point is 00:31:58 And so I think having that open line of communication is really helpful. But yeah, it's like that is always going to be like the race against the clock working in beauty yeah yeah totally agree with you and I think it just boils down to the individual brand and like the relationships again like that you have with these influencers or talent that you are sending these packages to I mean it could go either way um but speaking to that, and even just going beyond in like the future of PR, influencer partnerships, what do you see happening at, you know, we're nearing the end of 2020, or 2024, I guess, and going into 2025. So both of those, like,

Starting point is 00:32:41 to the end of the year and into next what's going to be the big thing yeah I think from what I've been seeing online and again maybe it's just my for you page which has picked up on what I'm watching right now but I'm seeing a lot of like return to two things return to niches like very much creators who are like this is my specialty this is what I'm going to advise you on like these are other stuff I use but like I consider myself an expert on this topic and you can trust me on this. Like there's a creator I follow and I'm forgetting her name, but she's like obsessed with lip butters and like lip balms. She's tried every single one. She's like uses other makeup, of course, but like most of her content revolves around like just those. And I'm like always sat and watching

Starting point is 00:33:23 because I'm like, yeah, what is the difference? There's 500 in the market. And so I've, and I'm like always sat and watching because I'm like yeah what is the difference there's 500 in the market um and so I've and I've seen a few creators that are very hyper focused on like a category and so people want to be considered an expert again um but then also I think we're seeing a return to kind of like more of that old school long form like educational talking through why you like something have you finished it like what kind of skin tone instead of just like quick cuts and I think TikTok kind of took that away from us of course because everything's super short form but like I always say like beauty like education really is always going to be the hardest part and so I think slowly but surely

Starting point is 00:34:00 we're creeping back to that like long form chatty, tell me something more than just like why I should spend $45 on it. And I'm kind of excited for that. Like I love talking. I love the discourse. I love hearing people's opinions. And even if I don't want to use a product, like tell me why you think it's the best and I'm listening. And so, yeah, I think we're seeing niches and like yappy long form return in the beauty space and beyond, but all the trends of beauty are always going to like cycle through. But in terms of the content, I think that's what's next. And I'm kind of excited. Yeah, for sure. The worst thing ever is like watching a TikTok and it ends and you're just like, that's it. Like, I want to know more, like, come on. So no, totally agree. I love, I love the age of the vlog. I hope it

Starting point is 00:34:48 comes back everywhere. So we'll see what happens. Um, yeah, I feel like you've mentioned a number of different skills and areas of focus as we're building our career, not only in the beauty space, but just in general and marketing. Is there anything else you'd call out skill wise, things that we should focus, whether we're a young professional or even seasoned in our career, things that we should just be thinking about always improving in? Oh gosh. I think as long as you're like, and like endlessly curious, you're like going to prove to be like invaluable. I've always just asked questions and I want to know the reasons why. And I, and I've always, in terms of like, even like my interns, like I always appreciate the ones that are like, I know I'm not in this

Starting point is 00:35:34 meeting, but why was this decision made? Or what is next? And what are we doing? Or like, this is this task I'm doing. How does it fit into the bigger picture? And so as this industry just moves so rapidly I think keeping that like curiosity is always going to be what unlocks that next like level and brainstorming and things like that but in terms of like actual tactical kind of like strategy and and it's something I think we're really seeing this year moving into next and even like years prior evolving it's just like beauty really is for everybody and like if you keep everybody in mind and you can kind of speak to the masses while also making someone feel like

Starting point is 00:36:20 you're speaking to just them that is going to like make all the difference and so knowing that there's always that like goal in mind I think is really like helpful kind of just like keeps your eye on the prize a little bit but yeah I mean there's always going to be a competitor there's always going to be a copycat like there's always going to be so much other noise that like you can try to you can manage it as you see fit but I think like you can only do like what you need to do and what you can do and everything else is just going to happen regardless. So yeah, I think it's like thinking quick and thinking of everyone. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:36:58 Staying adaptable and staying curious. Everyone's there a lot just in terms of like things that you wish you knew earlier on in your career and all of that which we actually do have to ask you because that's one of our favorite questions to ask um I know you've mentioned a ton of really great career insights career advice throughout this entire episode but is there anything else that you know now that you wish you knew just a little bit earlier on in your career? I think I wish I knew or maybe like wish I understood how important it is to kind of like adapt while also maintaining your way of working and your kind of like methodology.

Starting point is 00:37:40 Like I found and my boss and I always joke we're very different in terms of like work methods and personalities, but we're also really similar and so I've had to kind of like lean into her leadership style while also maintaining my style and so I think I maybe in my younger years was so quick to kind of like lose sight of I was just willing to like okay this we need to do I'll do it and like I was of course like my same personality, like I've never really folded in that way, but I was so figuring out my working style that I wasn't like taking inventory of that. And so as I've kind of come into it, like you can maintain your person while also contributing and leaning into a wider team. And it's like being in a relationship, like it's like ebbs and flows

Starting point is 00:38:23 and gives and takes. And so I think I wish I like knew how important that would be and I maybe would have done it like sooner or like made more strides to do it but like it's all gonna be okay like no one's as mad at you as you think they are and like truly the roof is not on fire my first boss ever was always like it's PR not ER and that's always stuck with me so like there have been days where I'm like everything's awful but it's like it's actually not and when it is you'll know but it's not and so yeah I think it's all gonna shake out I wish I could like go back to like Jenny and the cute scarf and be like it's all gonna be okay don't stress because there was so much failure along the way too like I tell tell the stories, if it was like bing, bang, boom, like, you know, I lost internships and didn't get what I wanted

Starting point is 00:39:08 or when I wanted it. And I wish I could just be like, you're going to be fine, girl. Like just your little neck scarf and just shut up. But it's all, it's all, it's all that ends well. Oh my gosh. Absolutely. Well, we're excited to just to kind of stay in touch with you see what you continue to do in your career and just personally as well and speaking of that uh where can we stay in touch with you online tell us all the things about linkedin and any other platform you want to shout out here easy enough linkedin instagram and i'm trying to be better at tiktok trying to lean in um but all just my name jen Shishulis. So easy to find. Amazing.

Starting point is 00:39:47 Amazing. Well, we'll have those linked below. Thank you so much, Jenny, for joining us today. This has been such a wonderful conversation. We appreciate you for joining us. Thanks so much for having me, guys. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Marketing Happy Hour podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate, and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. If you want more of Marketing Happy Hour but don't know where to start, we invite you to download our free Marketing Happy Hour Starter Kit at marketinghappyhr.com forward slash starter dash kit. This interactive magazine style PDF walks through who we are,

Starting point is 00:40:33 includes helpful resources like a marketing term glossary and the printable daily planner sheet that we actually use ourselves and contains clickable links to our episode recommendations by subject area. Not to mention all the fun extras like a quiz, the link to our Marketing Happy Hour Insiders Facebook group, a word search, a playlist, a goal setting guide, content inspo by month, and more. It's our hope that you'll dive into this resource and walk away more confident in your career journey with a group of industry pals that you can lean on for advice and support. Snag your free starter kit today at marketinghappyhr.com forward slash starter dash kit for all of the info you need to become a marketing happy hour insider.

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