Marketing Happy Hour - Stop Designing for Yourself: DIBS Beauty Co-Founder on Customer Clarity and Retail Marketing | Jeff Lee

Episode Date: April 30, 2026

In this episode, we sit down with Jeff Lee, CEO and co-founder of DIBS Beauty, one of the fastest-growing color cosmetics brands in the country, now carried in over 1,300 Ulta Beauty doors with a product waitlist culture that generated 17K+ sign-ups before their mascara even launched. Jeff's path to beauty CEO is anything but conventional: Yale Law, Wall Street, Stanford MBA, Alex Rodriguez, and a co-founding partnership built entirely over Zoom. He breaks down what DIBS got right in the first six to twelve months, why your product doesn't have to be the most innovative — just the most useful, and how being the "first beauty founder to visit an Ulta in all 50 states" taught him more about selling than anything else. He also gets real about career pivots, the myth of the founder story, burnout as a natural cycle, and why the in-store conversation still produces 10x the order value of anything you can do online.Key Takeaways:// Don't design for yourself. One of the most common founder mistakes is assuming you are the customer. Jeff isn't the end user of most of DIBS's products — and leaning into his co-founder Courtney's existing audience was the honest advantage they doubled down on from day one.// Your advantage tells you your customer, not the other way around. Start with where you have a real edge, then build toward it. Sublimate the ego. The brand that's built for a broader audience will always outperform the brand built for the founder's taste.// In-store still wins at 10x. For all the magic of influencers, social commerce, and a full digital stack — DIBS's highest order values come the moment a real conversation happens in-store. The customer arrives pre-sold from online; the store is where she converts at scale.// Your brand needs to be in the conversation before she walks in. A beautiful end cap alone won't do it. Customers now come in with a predisposition — either for or against you. Your digital presence, influencer strategy, and brand awareness work determines what happens before the store visit even begins.// Burnout is a cycle, not a finish line. Jeff reframes the burnout conversation entirely — it's not something to avoid, it's something to move through. The question isn't how to never burn out; it's whether you reignite on the other side.// Going backwards to go forwards is a real strategy. Jeff took a 90% pay cut to pivot into beauty. But he's equally clear-eyed: that choice was made possible by financial stability built first. Solve for what actually matters in your life before romanticizing the leap.Learn More About DIBS: Instagram____Join the MHH Collective! The MHH Collective is a community for marketers and business owners to connect, ask real questions, and grow their careers together. Join for access to live Q&As with industry experts, a private Slack community, and ongoing resources: https://www.marketinghappyhr.com/mhh-collectiveSay hi! DM us on Instagram and let us know what content you want to hear on the show - We can't wait to hear from you! Please also consider rating the show and leaving a review, as that helps us tremendously as we move forward in this Marketing Happy Hour journey and create more content for all of you. ⁠Join the MHH Collective: ⁠Join now⁠Get the latest marketing trends, open jobs and MHH updates, straight to your inbox: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join our email list!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow MHH on Social: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Facebook⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Welcome to Marketing Happy Hour, a weekly podcast helping marketing professionals and entrepreneurs build better strategies and hit career goals. I'm Cassie and I'm Allie. We're marketers and your host through these unfiltered convos with your peers and experts in the space. Let's dive in. Grab your favorite drink and let's get to this week's episode. Today we have Jeff Lee joining us, a CEO and co-founder of Dib's Beauty, excited to dive into the story just behind the brand, all thing dibs, super stoked to dive in. But Jeff, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for having me.

Absolutely. Well, we have to kick off with one of our favorite questions in marketing happy art, and that is what's been in your glass or cup lately? So I drink a lot of coffee, and I actually have combined it now with a lot of the excess mushroom coffee I get through the gifting universe. So, you know, it definitely is probably a double hit of caffeine or energy at some point. And then my creamer is actually just like pre-bottleed protein shakes. Love that.

That's, I think Allie does that too. I was going to say, that's how I get in some extra protein is I just use a protein shake in my coffee. Yep, exactly. It's the best. So, Jeff, if you don't mind kick us off by introducing yourself, your career journey, share a little bit about dibs. We just want to know, like, how did you end up at dibs and co-founding the brand? I would love to know all the details there. I would say it started really from a lifelong interest in beauty. And a lot of folks, I think, have an interest in some way,

shape or form in, like, what I'll call the visually attractive mediums, like beauty and fashion. And I think that there is something to distinguish here, which is an interest in a real love for what that stands for. And I didn't know that I had a love for beauty until probably my, you know, I was 15 or 16 and I started coaching Miss Universe contestants. And this was just a thing I was doing in college. It was a side hobby. And I found the process to be just incredibly energizing because, you know, you're traveling

around the world. And beauty pageants in the other parts of the world are totally unlike the ones here in the U.S. People take them so seriously in Latin America. in fact, presidential candidates come out from the contest. It said that if you compete, you can basically, you're set for life, right? Like, that's their way of achieving thing. And that's what really made me very interested in beauty itself

and really start to see the value and start to develop my passion for it, which is beauty can truly have an outsized impact on the world. And I think on top of that, one of the things that then fueled my interest was, I went down a very traditional career path. I'm, you know, the kid of, you know, Asian immigrants. So I went to law school and I actually really enjoyed being a corporate lawyer on Wall Street. But I was doing this on the side. So clearly there was an itch that I felt needed to be scratched.

And so I went down an even more unconventional path, which was I left my law career, went back to school, got my MBA, met Alex Rodriguez, the legendary Yankees player. And he actually said, oh, if you're interested in beauty, you know, I can get you into the sport. but you also have to work on baseball with me. And fast forward a few years later, I meet my co-founder, Courtney Shields, and the rest is Dibs. That's an unbelievable story.

And just Kismet, right? Because I think there were things that had to put you on that path to be able to meet these people and to kind of keep growing and finding that passion eventually. And so I want to dive deeper into Dibbs because it's become one of the fastest-growing makeup brands

so quickly. What did you and the team get right in the first kind of six to 12 months that you think other brands can learn from. So I think first and foremost, the pieces are really critical. They are, they're just so foundational. Like people like to say, right, you need to have the right seats on the bus, like in the right order, but you also have to have the right people in the seats. And I really believe in the latter, right?

Especially when you're starting out, you need the right talent that can really kind of supercharge what you're doing and also, you know, be there for you when things aren't really going great. And that's the truth of every startup, no matter how Rosie officially might paint. So first and foremost, right, I think having somebody that you gel with is so key. And I met Courtney over a Zoom in the pandemic. You know, we didn't meet until nine months into the journey. So that was pretty critical. and the fact that we've arrived and immediately really, really, you know, set the stage for everything that will come after.

In terms of the other pieces that were really critical early on, I'd also say, at the end of the day, starting company is not for the faint of heart. And I think America loves entrepreneurs and we really have this whole mythology around it. There are a lot of ways to achieve what you're trying to do in your career that don't necessarily entail starting a beauty company. and or starting a company in the sexiest space imaginable. And that's something I would always remind myself when things do get tough, which is, you know, you chose this and you're built for it. But the fact is different phases, different lives. I'm very privileged that I got to be able to startless because you also have to have a certain risk tolerance

and background profile to do it. Absolutely. And all of the other things that you've learned throughout the other ventures that you've had, right, have kind of built you to be able to be prepared for something like that, which I think is really interesting. And we talk a lot about that on the podcast. I think what I'm curious about the beauty industry is obviously highly oversaturated now with a lot of these different companies. I'm so curious, how did you define Dib's point of view in such a crap, like such a crowded category? Product really matters. And I tell the team nowadays that everything has been invented,

especially in color cosmetics, right? Like, there are 15 of the same kinds of lip oils or 15 of the same kinds of powder blushes out there. And if you're trying to race to, you know, kind of win on the innovation cycle, well, guess what, Korean Beauty has made its third wave of emergence. And they have all the advantages that American brands don't have, right? And so you really have to figure out what your product is and how it actually fits into your customer's lifestyle. So it's actually the case where I like to say we're sometimes second mover, first improver.

You don't have to always have the most innovative product out there, but it must fit your customer's lifestyle and trigger her to repurchase. So our hero is a dual-ended blush and bronzer. And, you know, there are blush sticks out there. There are bronzer sticks out there. But very few of them, I still think we are the market leader in it, paired them together, gave you the value of two colors for one, made the form. of this perfectly complimentary and also basically said, look, we're going to take the shade selection stress out for you. And is that the most innovative thing in the history of blush? No, because I've seen in a Korean lab as of three weeks ago, like a blush that can transform into four different

textures over the course of the day. But which is the one that your target consumer wants to buy? And for us, you know, she's a busy, busy working mom in general or a young professional who doesn't have time and might not prioritize having three different transformations, you know, in her product. I'm actually curious about that. How did you all define kind of who that customer is, specifically who you're speaking to, which I'm sure, of course, identifies which products to innovate on and develop. So we would just love to hear a little bit more about that. So one of the critical errors I see a lot of founders making is that they think that they're the customer or they're designing something for their own preference. And I'm not a customer.

right? I'm, you know, English is my second language. I live in California and New York. Our customer is generally a, you know, a resident of the center of this country in many cases. And I'm not an end user for a lot of the makeup that we make. You know, I'm deeply involved in the development of it. I'm intellectually interested in it. I'm in the process. And we focus really on where we had an advantage in reaching a larger group, which was through my co-founder's social media base because, you know, she's an influencer who speaks to a large segment of young woman across the country. And that was how we determined it.

You know, you have to basically look at it in this order, I think. Where's your at advantage, right? Because in any new venture, you're entering a crowded space. I don't care what it is. There's already someone doing it. So what's your advantage? And then how do you double down on your advantage? And then how do you supplement your ego because you have to drive towards that advantage?

Like if I wanted to make a company just for myself, it would not be dips, right? Like, but I'm not, you know, part of this team making something for my own use and enjoyment or brand attraction. I'm making it for a much broader audience. Yeah, absolutely. No, that's great. Thank you for sharing that. And I also want to talk a little bit about cultural relevance. So what did you learn about building that cultural relevance from the media world that you've applied to dibs?

Yeah. I mean, I think you have to be moved fat. you have to move fast. So, you know, one of the things I really respect, right, I had the chance to work with a lot of major figures in my time with Alex Rodriguez, Jennifer Lopez, Kobe Bryant, all of them is like the ones that really endure, right, are able to push themselves out of their comfort zone regularly. So there was a time when going onto TikTok, right, was seen as insane, right? Like, you didn't do it. It was like, you know, de classé, 15 second dances, etc. And the pop stars that actually adopted it early, right, managed to re- root and energize their careers for another wave. The fact is, right, like, we love to you throw around the word icon these days. Like, it's just a totally meaningless word in our culture. But if you look at how Madonna kind of resurfaces, like I like to joke greatly, every generation, you know, she has, you know, she is actually leveraging the younger star, right?

To continue to, you know, to energize herself and make herself relevant. That takes an enormous amount of work. You know, Alex Rodriguez himself, right, is one of the greatest athletes of all time, right? By any measure, largest sports contract that's sell on his laurels. You know, he did 14 different businesses when I was with him in three years, right? He was on seven major networks. We did a barstow podcast, which people fiercely opposed because they thought it was crazy. Then we brought Martha Stewart on.

And I think if these people who have so much to lose are willing to do it, you have no excuse when you're a no-name founder like myself or our team where you're, you know, you're looking around and culture moves so quickly now. The other thing, though, is you also have to decide if your brand is built to move with the culture constantly or if it has to choose its moments. I can imagine that what you do is very, there's a lot of hustle and bustle, a lot of craziness with innovating and events and meetings and leading teams, et cetera. So how do you just personally kind of create sustainability, ability in maintaining that high intensity in your work and passion for what you're doing without burning out.

I think burning out, right, happens naturally, actually, and it's a cycle. So the conversation around burnout, right? I think it's always phrased around how avoiding burnout, right? I actually think everyone burns out at a certain point. And then the question is, do you restart? Do you reignite? Right. And we're very afraid to talk in that way, right?

If someone says I have burnout, it sounds like they're done, like they're finished. We're burned out. But like if you look at like, I'm going to be a total nerd here. Like if you look in nature, right, there are so many, you know, like dry brush land in California where I'm from, right? Where the entire landscape gets burned out and then two months later, it's full blooms, right? Like the burnout is actually part of the cycle, right? Like, you know, the plant burns down, the ecosystem burns down and then actually helps

like it's necessary to rejuvenate everything. I actually really do believe in getting to that. point, wherever you are and like figuring it out for yourself because what we're always solving for is the curiosity of something better. Can I find a job that pays me better that lets me job my love to use that malign phrase, right, that lets me pursue my passions, right, with like better job by balance, et cetera. And that's that's the nagging voice, right? That makes people unhappy in what they're doing.

And sometimes I think you have to let yourself reach the point and look around and then see is a grass, greener. Like, what are the things that really matter to me? I'll be honest with you. Work life balance is never going to be a factor in anything I do because I'm a, I care a lot more about doing something I really care about. And I really care about and I don't just like it, but love it and really value it. I'm not going to have work light balance because I'm going to be thinking about it when I'm living my life. And I think to your point, that's a very special thing, right? And that's something clearly that you take a lot of pride in. And it's, I can, it's radiating. So thank you so much for sharing that. Before we pivot back into your career in terms of

the steps that you took, I want to know what excites you most about where the beauty industry is heading. Gosh, well, I think, you know, it's a double-edged sword, right? And you both have marketing backgrounds, right? You've both been in agencies, like huge, huge brands as well, right, that you've seen where, you know, they've had to kind of evolve and pick up the pace very quickly. But beauty operates on an even faster cycle because beauty is now tied to social commerce in a way that it never was before, right? And so, for example, TikTok has completely compressed the discovery ecosystem. Like, you know, you make your purchase now faster than ever. And with Amazon now really making a play in beauty, you can also convert even faster.

But one of the things that excites me is actually bringing some of the old school tactics back into play. And that doesn't sound sexy because I think these days, founders want to go out there and like, you know, we're all, huge adopters of the latest technology, AI, et cetera, et cetera. But one thing that was very important to me at the stage of dibs, where we are now in Alta in 1330 doors, 1332 doors across the country with our own branded N-cap fastest color expansion there, was I had never come from retail. I had never worked a job where I had to go and sell jeans

or stand in a target or Best Buy floor and help people buy things. My team has. And in a year, you know, one of the things I said to them was I need to learn the skill. So I went to, I'm the first beauty founder to go to and alter in all 50 states, been to more than 500 stores, a third of their fleet. And obviously, I'm obsessive and like wanting to do these records at the same time, but it also completely taught me about how you sell in store. And the reason it's important for us as a business and going forward, right, is people are going back and store more.

They want to be around real people. For all the automation, all the chat GPD, all the clotting and like, you know, social mediaing of it all. There's nothing like being in store. And I can tell you that our highest orders come the second we get you in a chair and start having a conversation with you, the order value that we can do in an auto beauty is 10 times what we can do online. So all the magic of your online marketing, of your influencers, of your AI stack, of everything

can't compare in many ways to having that real-life conversation. It's so true. And I think I'm just going to kind of double-click there. So I'm in the retail space right now. I'm working at Made Well. And one of our big kind of momentum movements for this year is to get more people back into the stores. And what we're doing is we're redesigning the stores.

We're looking at how do we make our denim a hero piece of the store and actually have it in a denim bar and things like that. And it's, it's in an effort to get people back in the store and talking about the product because so much of it has been online and feels like it's a little bit closed off from the consumer. And so how do we kind of bring them back into the store? So I love that you've been to all of the different stores to actually see how the consumers are interacting with the product. I think it's absolutely invaluable. Really, really cool. Let's throw my comment about, you know, selling jeans came from. Yeah, no, for sure. your background. But, you know, one of the things that has changed, right? And that is exciting

is that this, like, these two worlds are completely codependent on one another and feed into another. One of the things that is really, really shocking to people when I tell them is I don't, we are known for having one of the most beautiful N-CAP, like designs in Alta Beauty. I'm very proud of our retail team for designing it. But it's not all the bells and whistles that you could put on. And I think a lot of traditional retailers would say, well, okay, you need to create the whole brand universe. on your branded V. Like you need to, you know, have the neon lights, the LED screens, etc. And my adity towards it is actually no, because the customer needs to already have some sense of your brand before she comes in. If she doesn't, you're trying to cover her on the floor,

great, you should do let, but you're never going to win at scale. Like she needs, like your brand already needs to be out there in the conversation before she sets foot because she no longer comes in without knowledge of anything. She's coming in with with a predisposition to you. Like even think about how you buy it, we call granola, right? Like, we all know about purely Elizabeth in the consumer space, right? And whether you like it or you don't, you're more predisposed to go and look at it and examine it in a store that you would generic granola around it.

And it's the same for beauty. It's more, even more intense in that way. I was going to say, and especially at Alta, right, with all of the beauty brands that have moved in and how things are positioned in the store, it all makes a difference. And so just to be able to make that kind of impact at the store level is huge. Absolutely. Congratulations to you and the team. That's, that's incredible.

Well, you know, I always say, well, thank you. But I always say, like, look, you know, it's a partnership. I also think that who you do business with is really key at every level of your career, right? And one of the things that we do love about Alter Beauty is they're very, very, very smart and very good at what they do, including brand building. but they're also great people. I like to say they're marching accretive and morale accretive. We look forward to having meetings with them. And in a lot of ways, right, like, they're kind of cheerleaders for the brand.

And I'm like, I'm not known for having that kind of management style because like I feel like super like open about it. Like I have both like Asian mom in me and lawyer training. Like I, you know, like praise doesn't come easily to me. Right. Like like I give it. When I give it, people know I really mean it. But like it's also nice to have to. your external partner kind of show the love. And that's something that I think our team really

appreciates all the time. And it makes us better at our jobs. For sure. And they're almost an extension of your team now, right? Because they're also representing your brand in the market. So you can kind of treat them as an extension of your team and feel like they are a part of the mission and supporting you. And that's wonderful. That's a good partnership for sure. I want to pivot back to your career because I think it's incredibly fascinating and our listeners will find it. very comforting because I think a lot of the feedback that we get is often, you know, I'm starting in this one industry and I'm not, you know, I'm so far away from what it is that I want to do or what I feel passionate about. And so your career is is genuinely a masterclass and kind of pivoting

and thinking about these different areas to jump into, you know, from law to media to beauty. And how do you really know when that leap is calling you when it's time to make that leap versus when you should stay the course and get the experience. It's like the question of like when you jump, right? I think one of the really discouraging things, right, is that, you know, we've always been a species that compares ourselves to each other. Like that's wired into our hardware or DNA. But social media now obviously makes it so much easier to do,

to make that comparison active sense. Whether you're looking at your classmate, you're looking at LinkedIn, you're on TikTok, etc and it's like I think everyone faces the question of how are they getting where they are faster and better than you know I am trying to get to where I want to go and I think it's harder now than ever because there's so much job pressure right and it really is we're in the middle of I think will be a generational shift right and especially in what we call white collar jobs which is really what most people probably listening to this are working even if you don't want that label attached, right? And I would say a few things. One is, I'm not a patient person, but how do you learn

patients, right? People ask me, how did you break into beauty? I said, I didn't go do a lot or I didn't, you know, it took me six years, right? I had so many rejections, right? And some other the rejections made me better. And others just told me I do really grind it out. The second piece of it is you can also truly do what you love without making it your job. And in a lot of ways, it's better, right? I love working out. I'm a certified personal trainer. I do that on the side with my Miss Universe candidates, etc. I worked out at every Equinox in the world as well. And Equinox once asked me, like, when you just come work for us? I said, absolutely not. Like, like, no. Like, like, that would just ruin it. Like, if I actually, like, make this my job, that would be horrible. Similarly,

I love beauty pageants. I love training women for Miss Universe. And that's come up many times. I'm like, I would never do this as a job job. That's horrendous because that takes out all the fun, right? then, you know, you're solving for in many cases, okay, well, I'm not doing something that I love. And I want to do something I really love on the side, et cetera. Well, remind yourself the grass is greener because the people do what they love and that have their business or livelihoods attached to it. That blurs a barrier between something that you might end up not enjoying if you were doing it as your job.

The second piece of it is everything you do, as long as you're constantly learning, pushing yourself out of your comfort zone, will ultimately lead you to a great place, right? Like, that is, like, that's a key point. You know, I think, like, you can only connect the dots when you're looking at it backwards, right? Let's see, Jobs once said at graduation speech, which is, yeah, if we look in hindsight, of course, your journey always made sense. No one has a master plan. I can definitely sell you the story that I completely master planned out all these pivots.

No, I got lucky. Like, you know, and I really hate the entrepreneur. and people that like pull these software like, oh, you know, I was just making my own look. I'm like, no, you can knock on all the doors you want, but sometimes the universe has to throw you a bone. And I was lucky that I got the bones I got. And there were other bones I didn't get. And my life would have been different. I've had I had it gone there. But I don't know what that would have been because you just got them on one path. Great advice. I know Ali and I are just both nodding along here.

Kind of similarly to, you know, I'm curious what you'd say to this, but what advice would you give to someone who feels overqualified on paper but under-fulfilled in their career? I know that's kind of a tricky spot to be in. And it's that question of, do I pivot? Do I make an adjustment in what I'm currently doing? Just really curious what you'd say to that. Well, I have like seven degrees in qualifications, right?

MBA, J-D-C-P-P-P. like, you know, I'm a notary public. I'm a real estate broker, technically, like all these random things. You know, I came from a culture where you took one test. And that test determined what school you went to and what major you were in, and what profession you had. And that's how a lot of advanced Asian societies work, right? Like in Korea and Taiwan, like Singapore, the more advanced economies.

One test places you within society, Japan, right? we have the great fortune of being in the American system where you can make your own luck. And what that means, though, is that you don't also have the security of, okay, you got into a great school or you got into a great agency or you got into a great company and a great brand name and that's going to carry you for the rest of your life. You have to make your own luck. And sometimes you have to go backwards to go forwards. Right. There's so many, you know, I think a 90% pay cut to go and do, you know, jobs at times. times, right? Like, you know, I, it my old law firm, right, you know, the first year associates,

23 years, I'm not supposed to say this, they make more than most beauty CEOs, straight out of law school, right? That's a lot of money. And that's a lot of resources to do what you want to do if you do have the free time. And yet I get that and I chose not to do it, right? And I do, you know, wind my way backwards, right? There are many times in, you know, doing the things I where I'm like I'm carrying people's suitcases, I'm building them setting up. Look in the store, right? And in my retail team, nosis, like, there's no CEO. Like, you know, a customer comes up and is like, they think I work there.

What am I going to do? No, I don't work here. No, it's how can I help you? Right. A few weeks ago, I was spent like an hour trying to help a customer in Riverside, California, find the bathroom key, right? And there is no, okay, I have this qualification, et cetera. in that situation.

But I think it's really important to remind yourself, like, that's, those are the moments to actually build you to get into where you want to go, right? Because when you do do that, people notice, right? And like, they then think hopefully more highly of you. And that creates more opportunities for you. People in Ulta know that when I come in, there's no errors or anything about it. I come in, I will bring you coffee. I'll bring you piece out.

I'm here to support you. And in return, I do believe. that they're more motivated to be a part of our family as a brand. And if they're doing that, that makes me stronger in my job and opens more opportunities for everyone. Yeah, absolutely. And it's similar to what you and Allie were talking about, of just the power of being in the store

and hearing what the consumer's saying, actually speaking with them and seeing what their experience is with the brand. It's kind of like that Walt Disney philosophy. He's, I think, spent 60 or 70% of his day out chatting with guests and kind of walking the ground. and there's so much power in that. But also culturally, as you mentioned,

it's just creating this culture of like, you're there for your team, for the consumer, et cetera. So that's so important. Like, do, don't tell, right? Like, if you're, to your original question, right, if you feel overqualified, right? And especially you're trying to make a pivot, the fact is, right, everyone has your qualification.

Sorry, you know, like, like, you know, I felt very accomplished after getting into, you know, basically every graduate program ever applied. There's an Asian guy out there, right? Like, he's a meme, right? He's like a Navy SEAL, Harvard MD, like went to space as an astronaut. There is always someone with, and his mom is probably still disappointed. It's like the running joke, right?

Like, there is always someone with your level qualification. So in the interview, actually, what I care about is you showing me that you can think quickly, that you can lead in your job. I don't know where my team went to college, right? Like, I get your C, like, their CVs during the interview process. I look at it. I actually really don't pay attention. It's a complete reversal from law where we cared a lot.

What law school you went to you, what rank you were, we would cut you if you weren't in the top five, right? You know, things like that. Here, I don't even think a number of my corporate team graduated from four-year institution, and I don't really care. I'd rather have them than someone with my educational background who can't do Jack. Yeah, absolutely. And I want to also just ask about something you mentioned earlier, you know, taking a 90% pay cut, for example. I think sometimes when we're making these decisions, we're like, this is the best choice for right now because of XYZ.

However, sometimes, at least in my experience, even after you make that decision, there are moments where maybe you feel a little bit of regret or sadness for not being. at the place that you wanted to be, but knowing hopefully in the long run that that choice is going to pay off, how have you kind of developed that like mental tenacity and what are some mindset shifts that you've had to make over time or even just encouragement that you'd give to someone in the middle of making a decision or kind of in a spot where they don't feel like is the place they want to be, but they know hopefully that that will lead them to where they need to be in the future. Take yourself out from like the job itself or what you're doing or what you, and even what you wanted you and focus on what really matters in your life.

What are you solving for? Right? And is this decision going to help you there? I'm very lucky in that like I have the economic ability to take a 90% pay cut. I'm sorry, most people don't, right? And that's the part of the founder's story, et cetera, that no one ever tells you. It's just like, people, like, there's such a mythology of like, you know, I lived on the couch and I ate ramen noodles and then I built this billion dollar company. And that does happen.

Don't get me wrong, I know a lot of people have done it. But at the same time, right, I don't have kids. I don't have to worry about the roof over my head. I worked a Wall Street job that financed my lifestyle and allowed me to go back to school. A lot of people don't have that. So if you're solving for that, solve for that first because then that lets you do the other things in life. You're not falling behind because you're putting food on your table. I view that as the most essential obligation.

I did all that and then I was able to pivot. Now, maybe you're one of those people who's wired to say, no, I have to take the risk. I will risk being hungry because I believe in this idea so much. And if I fall, I fall, then solve for that in your own way. But it's a personal question. It should have nothing to do with where you want to go professionally and everything you do with what matters in your own life. Great advice. I love it.

Just focus on the back to the basics almost, you know, think about that one thing. that you're trying to solve for. I think that's great because I think we sometimes try to bite off too much more than we can chew and we get overwhelmed. And yeah, so love that. Great advice. Jeff, this has been awesome. Just love chatting beauty, career, just marketing in general. It's been such a great conversation. We love to know, just as we close out here, where can we follow along with you personally, as well as all things, Dibs? Well, Dibs Beauty is our official hashtag. I am Jeff Lee 108 on LinkedIn Instagram.

I just started TikToking. Like, you know, I joke right. It was Alta Beauty World. Good for you. Sleeveless, embroidered blazer with spray tan over my face, ringing a cowbell. Team was like, it's time for you TikTok. I'm a 40-year-old man and I just posted my first TikTok. So it's growing pains, right?

But always push yourself, right? So. Yeah. Yeah. As we've discussed, you know, try all the things, test it out and go for it, you know. So I love it. We're excited to follow along with you. We'll have all the links below in the show notes.

So definitely check out Jeff's channels as well as all things dibs. But Jeff, thanks again so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. Thank you for the conversation. It's so great to meet you both. Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Marketing Happy Hour. If you enjoyed it, make sure you're subscribed to the show and sign up for a weekly newsletter with insights and marketing resources. We also invite you to check out the MHH Collective, our community for marketers looking to connect, grow, and learn together.

Check out the links in the show notes. We'll see you next time.