Marketing Secrets with Russell Brunson - A Consulting Call With My Mentor - Part 1 of 2

Episode Date: April 29, 2019

I had a really rare opportunity to give some feedback to my initial mentor who got me started on this crazy journey. Listen in for thoughts and insights that should help you as well. On this special 2 episode series Russell talks about a recent social media post by Mark Joyner, and then he goes on to give him some awesome advice. Here are some things that Russell tells Mark Joyner, that could be helpful to anyone running a business. Why having too many upsells/downsells will make your customers turn on you. How removing complexity from software will make customers enjoy it more. And why the more significance you seek, the less you will actually get. So listen to Russell offer sound advice to his own mentor, Mark Joyner, about how he can improve his business. Transcript - https://marketingsecrets.com/blog/201-a-consulting-call-with-my-mentor-part-1-of-2 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Metrolinx and Crosslinx are reminding everyone to be careful as Eglinton Crosstown LRT train testing is in progress. Please be alert as trains can pass at any time on the tracks. Remember to follow all traffic signals. Be careful along our tracks and only make left turns where it's safe to do so. Be alert, be aware, and stay safe. What's up, everybody? This is Russell Brunson. Welcome to a very special episode of the Marketing Secrets Podcast. Today, I'm going to let you in behind the scenes on a really special conversation I'm excited to have with my very first ever marketing and business mentor, the guy who

helped me go from having a dream of someday starting a business to really giving me the foundational tools and insights and knowledge I needed to be able to launch what eventually became ClickFunnels. And someone I'm super grateful for, his name is Mark Joyner. He's been called the godfather of internet marketing, but for me, he's someone that I respect as a friend and a mentor. And I'm really excited to share this episode with you guys here as soon as we get back from the theme song. So the big question is this. How are entrepreneurs like us who didn't cheat and take on venture capital, who are spending money from our own pockets,

how do we market in a way that lets us get our products and our services and the things that we believe in out to the world and yet still remain profitable? That is the question and this podcast will give you the answer. My name is Russell Brunson and welcome to Marketing Secrets. All right, everyone, so let me give you some context. So when I first got in this game almost 15 years ago, when I jumped in, it was kind of the wild, wild west. There was a whole bunch of stuff happening, but no one really, it was just kind of crazy out there. Like it was, it was Google was kind of there. There were a bunch of other search engines though. No one who's going to win. You know, before then it was before MySpace, there was a social network coming out called Friendster. Some of you guys may remember that. There was a couple of people

talking about marketing and stuff, but there wasn't a lot out there. And I got on, it was kind of like the wild, wild west. I was looking for stuff and I found a couple people talking about things. But there wasn't a lot that I could really find. Today, I feel like so much of what we do online has been very defined. There's clear lines of like, this is what you do and how you do it. And like a lot of the, the, um, the foundational, um, frameworks and things have been, have been figured out. They've been mastered over the last 15 years. And like, you know, a lot of you guys who are jumping in the game now, like it's lucky you can just jump in and here's the framework of what to do. But before that, even before I got on, like there were people out there trying to figure this stuff out. And, um, one of the early, early, early

pioneers was a guy named Mark Joyner. Uh, and Mark is, um, I mean, he's got a military background. He's written a bunch of books. He's just, um, just an amazing person for so many reasons. And I remember, uh, as I was starting my search online, trying to figure things out, um, uh, I kept hearing his name pop up and I didn't, I didn't know who was who. I didn't understand the whole, you know, any of, any of the landscape of who was important and not. But I remember I heard his name a couple times and all of a sudden I saw this campaign come out.

It seemed like everybody's who email list I had joined at that point were all sending emails out saying the mark joiner, the godfather of internet marketing is retiring and he's leaving behind everything and he wants to shift what he's doing in life and he's selling off all the source code,

all the sites, his projects. And I remember it was probably one of the best, his projects. And, and I would, I remember it was probably one of the best hooks I've ever heard. I was like, what? And we're going to the sales page and reading this thing. It was called the Mark Joyner farewell package. I remember reading the sales page and I was like,

I have to have this. Like if I had this, my life would change, you know? And, um, and I was like, I have to have it.

I have to have it. And I was going crazy because I wanted, I needed to buy it. The problem was, it was a thousand bucks. I just married my beautiful wife. We were more than broke. I was a wrestler who was making $0 an hour. She was a secretary making $9 and 50 cents an hour. And we had a little house. We were that I just read Rich Dad Poor Dad. So I bought this like

duplex. I was renting out half of it. You know, so we, I mean, it was like as poor as you could get. Right. And, but it was, you know, same time as my wife and I talked about mean it was like as poor as you could get right um and uh but it was you know same time as my wife i talked about it was like the best time of our life like it was just so much fun like i sometimes like we missed that part of it but i still remember i'm in this house i'm reading the farewell package i want to buy it but i can't afford it and i don't know what to do i don't have a credit card at the time and my wife had one but she had like you know from before we got married she had a credit card so we had like had someone help us pay it off and we were paying that person back. So we tried not to get into debt and all sorts of stuff.

And I remember reading the sales pitch and then all these people were promoting it. And this guy named Mike Chen kept promoting it like crazy. And I remember I listened to this interview with Mike Chen and Mark Joyner talking about how to have success in business. And basically they're like, you need $2,000 at least to get started.

And part of that's gonna go to buy the farewell package for a thousand bucks, but you need some startup capital to actually do something. And I listened to this thing all night and bent my bed over and over and over again. And finally I was like, I have to invest in this thing. And it's funny now looking back on how scared I was, but how grateful I am that Mark was willing to be a marketer and to sell a product he believed in and that he had created

and that he had given me urgency and scarcity and like desired for this thing because, you know, that next morning I woke up and I told Colette, I was like, I think that this is the thing. And she's like, you tried a ton of stuff. Like, you really think this is it? And I was like, I feel like this is the thing I need. And she said, okay, then I trust you. And so she like, we called the bank, we upped the credit card limit a little bit and I went and bought the farewell package. And I remember a week or two later, it showed up right when my wife and I were leaving. It was like our one-year anniversary, and my parents were flying to Hawaii, and they were taking us with us. And so I had my little CD Walkman player on the flight.

I'm listening to the CDs in the air from this farewell package. And it's Mark telling the war stories of how they built his companies back then. Again, pre-everything. He was building search engines and getting them indexed and building huge email lists with that. He was doing, I would love to actually go back. Maybe I'll do that. I should go back and re-listen that whole course

because he had so many of these brilliant ideas. They're like, when you can't run Facebook ads, how do you build a list, right? When there are no pay-per-click search engines, besides the one that you built, by the way, he was one of the first pay-per-click search engines. You like like how do you do it and so he had to be super creative and he had all these amazing ideas and ways and he had some websites that blipped him in the top like 30 or 40 websites in the world highest traffic at websites like just all these amazing

things that he he developed so i remember listening to these cds and just getting so many ideas about what to do and how to do it and it was really foundational for me and you know i think of, I think of all the lessons I learned from Mark, I learned a ton of them, but what the one that was the most impactful was, was the focus point of like building an email list. Like you have to build a list, you have to build a list. And that season of, of the internet marketing game is when AdSense sites became this thing. And you know, everyone's cranking out these AdSense sites and making insane amounts of money. And I kept wanting to like shift my focus to that. I just kept hearing his voice in my head. I didn't know him yet personally, but from listening to his course so many times,

like folks on building lists, folks on building lists, like that's what you got to do. And so I went back to those fundamentals and I was annoyed as everyone else was making millions of dollars around me doing nothing, building garbage sites. And then when that dried up and disappeared overnight, I was so grateful for him as a mentor who stuck me to the fundamentals. And you know, after Mark did his farewell package, he sold off all the source code stuff and he disappeared for like a year. I have no idea where he went. And then a year later, he came back and was just kind of like helping some people. And, you know, I jumped in and like,

dude, you have no idea how much you've helped me. You know, and we had a chance to connect a little bit there and talk a few times. I had a chance to interview him and it was just such a cool, it was cool for him to do that. It meant the world to someone like me who, you know, he was, he was, um, he was everything to me and it was so cool. He was willing to come back and to share. And, and then, uh, uh, about a year later, so he, he launched a new company and it was in more in the personal development space. It was called Simpleology. I remember when he came back, there's all the, you know, all the naysayers have to come in like, Oh, I thought you were retiring from the internet market. And he's like, I was retiring from teaching internet marketing. I wasn't, I was retiring from teaching internet marketing.

I wasn't retiring from using the internet. I'm not an idiot. I've heard this internet thing's probably going to last a little while. He created this site called Symbolology. He launched it. It grew really, really big, really fast. Then honestly, I don't know exactly what happened. I have my assumptions.

I think he had had so much success in earlier things than when it started happening. I don't know. Maybe it was relationship things. than when it started happening. I don't know. Maybe it was relationship things. Maybe it was family things. I don't know. But I don't feel like he was really engaged in the game for a long time. I think that Sympology was working. He made a bunch of money, built a big list.

But he didn't really tend after for, I mean, who knows, maybe a decade or so. And it's there. It's been doing its thing, but just hasn't, you't, um, you know, like, I don't know. It just, it just hasn't had his attention, his focus. And, um, you know, I, I was lucky enough to two or three years ago, he came out and we spent a day or two together. I helped him build a funnel, which was really fun and just super cool to go back and do that with my, my original mentor.

Um, in fact, we launched that funnel, but it's funny. We filmed the whole like funnel hacker TV episode. We haven't got that live yet. I'm gonna have to go back and yell at Brandon on my team to see if we can get that thing live. Cause it was really funny. We filmed the whole Funnel Hacker TV episode, and we haven't got that live yet. I'm going to have to go back and yell at Brandon on my team to see if we can get that thing live, because it was really cool, just the whole thing. And I had so much fun having him here in Boise. In fact, one of the things I remember,

one of his original books was a book called Mind Control Marketing, which was the book we actually did the funnel for. And I remember he opened it up, and he signed his name in it. And I looked at it that night, and it said something like, to my number one student. And I was like, oh my gosh, that is is so cool um anyway so there's enough for me for fanboying so let me let me talk about what the point of this uh of this podcast is um so it's been interesting like i feel like when mark came out to boys we spent the day or two together i

feel like you know we kind of caught him on fire got him really excited about stuff i think he saw how much excitement we were having with click funnels and like the team and like everything. And, and I think he was, you know, kind of getting, getting excited to get back into it. And I've seen him do more and more stuff over the last year or two since he

came out here. And, uh, and I can feel like, I don't know. I don't know. It's, it's like the Phoenix rising,

the ash, like this rebirth of excitement from him. And like, and I, and I feel like right now he's in this momentum where he's like, Hey, I want to do this thing. And so the other night he posted something on Facebook. Uh, it was, what was that about

almost a month ago right now. So he posted this thing. And so I'm going to read you what he posted. So he posted marketing gurus. This is your chance to humiliate me. Number one, I've been stepping up my game lately. Number two, this is just the beginning. Number three, I want your advice on how to step it up even more better PR, better offers, better social, broader reach, better copywriting, better public speaking, better whatever the F. Number four, be brutally honest. Skin is thick AF, ego in check, mind wide open, and then just don't be a jerk about it. He said, bonus, I think this post will get some wide attention.

See this as a free advertising opportunity for yourself. It also is a deposit to Mark Joyner Favor Bank. I'm not a Lannister, but I always pay my debts. So that's kind of what he posted. I remember reading that. I was like, oh man, like so, so, so interesting. And then I kind of sat back and I watched, I saw as comments started flooding in. And as of today, there's 167 comments and tons of people gave him good advice, tons of people gave him some bad advice. Um, but all, of all the advice that there was, it were in there. Um, there was one from actually my first, um, one of the first people I mentored is Justin Brooke. And, um, and I think his, his was the closest to what I would say in a short form. And then, and then if I had more time with

Mark, I would sit back and I have kind of long form of bigger, bigger strategy things that I would, I would talk about with him. And so, um, uh, and so what I'm gonna do, I'm actually going to read Justin's. I'm going to share a couple of quick thoughts I had based on that. And then I want to sit, I basically want to record this as if I was sitting down with Mark. I told him ahead of time, I was going to record this. I said, look, I would love to do this more of a long form, right? Act like this is a consultation. I'm going to go this. I said, look, I would love to do this more of a long form. I act like this is a consultation. I'm going to go through six or seven things I would really look at if I was you. And I'd love if I could record this and I'll send you the audio.

And then you can basically have it. But I want to publish this podcast too because I think this is going to help so many people who are kind of in a similar situation. And he said yes. And then he came back and said, what if we do that? And then I go and implement a bunch of stuff you said. And then we do an update podcast later kind of showing the results. I was like, dude, that'd be awesome. So I'm totally into that. So this is the first podcast of a two part series probably, uh, which would be cool. So, all right, so let me read you what Justin Brooks said. So

Justin said, uh, said with the most, with the utmost respect and love, I am your raving fan, but I do see some things that can be improved. Number one, you seem to be falling into the trap for all great marketers are doing too much high level advanced stuff and not enough of the basics. Maybe your goals are different. Maybe you don't want the attention, but your pages, your profile, sales page, even the UI of Simpleology is very dated. It's not keeping me up with what's currently popular or best practices. That's number one. Number two, it's confusing who you are today. Are you in the fitness niche? Are you marketing? Are you personal development? I know you as the godfather of internet marketing. What happened to that

messaging? Where's the story on my, where's that story on your profile pictures, bio, cover, web, cover photo, website, YouTube channel. If it's not that anymore, then what? How do you want me to brag about you to my friends? Which is the cool line. And then number three, Simpleology is a great productivity soft, is the great productivity software on the market, but it looks like the oldest productivity software on the market. It should be an app on my phone. It should look like Trello. It should be easy and intuitive, like Workflowy, and it should have comparison pages to Asana, to-do list, Trello, Workflory. I love you, dude. You can do no wrong in my mind, but since you asked.

All right. So three really, really good things. Number one was he's lost at the mark. Mark's brilliant, which is the curse of most of your geniuses is that he speaks at a very high level. And for people who are seeking improvement, we love that. We plug into it. The problem is most people don't seek for improvement. People are looking for new opportunities. I'm going to talk about it here in a minute. And the new opportunist needs things at a much basic,

more basic level. Again, number two, I think there's some huge confusion of like where he fits in the market. And number three is a simple ology. Like I said, it looks very outdated. And so let's come to three things. Now, a couple of things, I had some like fast things I wanted to kind of just throw out there. Like if I was to write a post to follow up Justin's, I'd have like a quick thing before I dive into like the longer and more fun detailed geeking out on strategy and principle stuff. So I'm going to go through some of the core things really quickly. To Justin's three, the things I would probably add, the first one I'm going to go with Simpleology, kind of what he talked about with the, he said Simpleology is the great productivity software on the market, but it looks like the

oldest productivity software on the market. And I would say something similar. Mark, after you came out, I'm going to speak to Mark just directly for the rest of this probably. I hope that's okay. So Mark, when you came to Boise and we were geeking out showing you all the ClickFunnels stuff and you kind of did the same thing with Simpleology and you logged us in and created accounts for me and my team. And we were all excited to kind of use it because we started doing it. And the word, like the root word is simple, simple ology. And it, it, it by default isn't very simple. Like it was, it was by far one of the more, more, most complex, like project management, task management thing that I'd used. Um, and because

that we didn't get traction, like, like me and Steven Larson, as you know, we were like geeking out, like, we're going to do this. And we, we try for, for a week, two weeks, I was going through all the black belt, white belt, all the training and the training and stuff and and the by the time like two or three weeks in like literally what the the phrase that we said it's like this is not simple at all this is this is very complex we're gonna go back to trello because it's simple and so that's what we did we shifted back to the system that was that was actually very simple and so that was like one big piece of feedback about why we didn't get traction why we didn't stick is because um the simplicity wasn't actually there especially for product that simplicity, like the word simple in the name. It's like we have to make it more simple. And,

you know, I say that looking at ClickFunnels, which once again is very similar to like the most complex software on the planet. And my biggest hurdle I have in ClickFunnels is getting people to consume the software to the point where they can actually use it. And so I totally understand that. And it's funny, you know, we're trying to do more of this now, but it's hard this deep in the game for us is instead of like giving people all the complexity, we were like, if I could build ClickFunnels from the ground up again, like let's say I sold it for a billion dollars, I had a five-year non-compete or whatever. And I was starting over in five years from now, I would make ClickFunnels so simple and I would force people to opt into complexity,

right? So I was like, I would basically make ClickFunnels look like lead pages. Like you can create a page. That's it. And they would go in there and they could drag and drop, move things around. Like, Oh, this is easy. And then I'm like, Oh, you have a page. Would you like to do a funnel? And they're like, yeah, that'd be awesome. They click a button. And then it's like, okay, let me coach you on what a funnel is first. So we explain the concept behind it. And then, then they click a button to unlock, unlock that complexity would add it to it. Right. So that way we have a basic – that way all I have to do like for my onboarding, get people to stick with the software is get them to come into the very simplest, easiest thing. Just convince them of that.

Then they use that and they get a quick win. Like, oh my gosh, that's easy. Then for them to add the next thing, it's not just like click the button and go into it. It's they have to watch a video, get trained on it. Then when they opt in that complexity, it's not complex because they just went through a training cycle to understand that. Right. And I totally, if I would get, if I was to click phones from scratch today, that's what I would do is I'd make it simple. And then, um, and then every time they want to add complexity, they have to opt into it. They watch the training and then

unlocks and I wouldn't sell them for each upsell. Um, I would just, I would just optimize the complexity and they keep getting those things, um, as they things as they do it. So for you, I know you said you have a new version coming out. And so I would just look at that. It's just right now it's super complex for something that's called simple. And I would look at like, okay, let's actually make it simple and then unlock the complexity as they go deeper. That's number one. What's up everybody. This is Russell Brunson. I've got something really cool for you today from my friend Taylor Wells. And Taylor spoke at our last Funnel Hacking Live because I wanted him to share a really cool concept about what he calls the revolving pricing method. And today he decided to sponsor the podcast to give you guys more access to this super cool strategy that you are

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Number two, I logged in tonight to Simpleology because I haven't used it for a while. So I logged in and it put me immediately into an upsell flow which i respect as a marketer but as a consumer drove me crazy went through three upsells and the third upsell was a sales video with comments down below and i couldn't even get into software and so i had a lot and i logged out re-logged in and then took me to software and i was like i can't even lock the software just put me through upsells and um you know someone who who loves upsells and downsells more than anyone on human earth on planet earth i also know that my lifetime value my customers um if i'm not careful upsells and downsells will destroy the lifetime value back you know in in a pretty quick funnels life when we were before i you know before

i um really understood in fact i can tell you the story behind this is every one of my funnels back they would always have three upsells and three downsells. So if you said no to everything, you went through six things every single time. And like, we were pulling out tons of money. So I thought it was right. And it was interesting is, um, one of my friends came out with this new software. Um, it was Garrett Pearson, Scott Brandley, and they came out with this new software called shopper approved. And they were like, Hey, put this on your thank you page. You know, this is when people are most happy. They just bought something that's so excited. And then they review you and you get really good reviews. I was like, cool. So I put this thing your thank you page. You know, this is when people are most happy. They just bought something that's so excited and then they review you and you get really good reviews. I was like,

cool. So I put this thing on my, on my thank you page for one of our funnels during a launch. And, um, and then all of a sudden the reviews start coming in. I was like, oh, this is awesome. So I let it run for four or five hours in the middle of the launch. And then I logged in and see what my, my stars look like. I think my overall rating was like two and a half stars. And I was like, what? Like, these are my best buyers. These guys should love me right now. And I started reading the comments and people were like, if I see one more upsell, I'm going to kill you. Like, I don't even want your product anymore. Like, boom, like all these things. And I was like, oh my gosh, my customers hate me. And it's because we took

them through so complex upsell process. And so for me, I always look at like, how do I, like I want as many upsells as possible without making the person angry. So if you look at like, like evolution of funnels for me, especially like funnels where you have upsells and downsells, like, um, uh, I'm very, very careful. Like that's why we kind of pioneered the whole order form bump thing. Cause someone would buy a product, you know, they, in a two-step order form, they put in their shipping address and right before the submit button, we'd have an order form bump and we started putting those things in because, um, it would, it would increase our cart value, but people don't look at it as an upsell. And so it didn't decrease customer happiness. Right? So like we had bumps, those bumps that we plugged in there. And then I used

to go all in from having six upsell downsells to the max. Like I have an internal rule, like the most we can have is two. Okay. If it's an upsell downsell, that's it. If it's upsell upsell, that's it. Like, but we can, I like for me, I would never go more than two. That's like an internal rule. Every company knows like we do too. That's it. Um, and from that point, um, our happiness level, our lifetime value of our customers have dramatically gone up because they're not sick of us by the time it's over. And so that's kind of thing. Just look at like for me to log in, I went through three upsells and then I couldn't even get software. And this is me logging in. I'm sure it's similar. I'm signing up the first time

I would just look at, you know, when someone's creating an account in my software, it's more important for me to, uh, get them using using the software than for me to make revenue immediately. Okay, now that's not always true. And in the sixth thing I have here for you, there are front end funnels with a goal to focus of upsell downselling. But then from there, I push them into my software and click funnels is very light on any kind of upselling to the signup process. Because I just want them to have a good experience and just stick. That's the most important thing for me. Okay, and then the third thing I would say,

again, this is my quick feedback, my Facebook post that I would have made, is the concept of significance. And I share this. This is one that I've been kind of nervous to share, but I think it's really, really important. And I don't want to name names because this podcast are public and things like that, but it's been interesting in my journey. Like, um, I've had

a lot of, I've had a lot of chance to work with people who, um, who, um, in fact, the first time I heard about this, I was, I was in a car ride with Tony Robbins and, and Tony was talking about doing, um, a partnership. Somebody asked my opinions on, I was like, I like that person. I think they're pretty good. He said, yeah, the problem is that person's significance driven. Therefore I'm not going to do the deal with them. And I was like, Oh my gosh, like am I significance driven? I was freaking out and you know, I'm having Tony Robbins looking at my soul. I was like, am I significance driven? And it made me really, really nervous. And I've always been cautious of that ever since. I'm like, I don't want to be significance driven. I want to be driven by, by other needs, right? Like,

like other things. And all of us have this significance. Like it's part of what we do. It's what drives, especially as entrepreneurs, the significance. But what I found is a lot of people, especially from the older time, right? Like the foundational time. And these are offline gurus who I respect, I love. And some of the early online guys is that they got a lot of significance where they did. And I know that,

and you've specifically kind of told me this before when I think I had an event I wanted you to speak at. And this is before ClickFunnels came out. But you said, you know, I can only do it if I'm the keynote speaker because I need to maintain my branding and my positioning. And I was like, oh, that's, I understand that.

But the problem is it, if you're, if you're not careful with that, like it ruins opportunities. And it's funny, I was talking to Dave Woodward on my team about this, um, pretty in depth. And I said, you know, it's interesting, like how much significance I have right now in my life, like more than I could ever even hope for. And the less I try to be significant, the more significance I get, right? The more I push it away, the more I get. And it's funny cause I see, I see a lot of people who hold on to significance and they want to be significant, feel significant. And because of that, they, they, they, um, they disappear from, from the, from the faith and like the public face. And, and so for me, the biggest thing I would say is, and I feel like you're doing it

now. In fact, this post is a great example of it is being willing to be vulnerable and, um, is, and like coming off of that, like, like breaking posture is what draws people towards you. And in the early days of the internet, it was different because it wasn't social media, right? It was, it was, um, it was ads and it was emails and it was clicks. And so it didn't matter as much, but in today's world where everything's social, like, um, significance actually repels people. It's like a magnet that pushes people away. Whereas vulnerability, um, is what draws people in. And so, and you can see that from this post right here alone. And so for me, it's like, when I talk about my significance and my achievements, my accomplishments, stuff

like that, um, it never draws people towards me. When I talk about my failures, my, my, my things, I struggle with, um, things like that. It draws people towards me. And so there's a part of this, there's a point in any of your stories and things to have that significance where it's like, Hey, I did this about, you know, I did blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But if you look at any of my webinars or my, my stories, my videos, like I touch upon significance. Like I, I, I say things to, so people know that I'm significant, but then I, I jump off that as fast as I possibly can. Right. I can make sense of like, Oh, here's, here's the, you know, here's, I had a chance to build a funnel for Tony Robbins and then he launched his new book. Boom. There's like a huge significance hit. But then I jumped back and like, Oh my gosh, it was the most stressful thing in the world. And so I

was scared. This is like, and I go into that and all of a sudden they're like, Oh my gosh, he's human. He was scared. It's like, I would have been scared. And that's what draws them in. Me doing something with Tony does not, it gives me the credibility, but significance actually pushes, pushes things away. And so for you, it's like the more vulnerable you get, um, the more your audience is going to connect with you and they're going to build with you. And the more you kind of put significance away. Um, and again, I feel like you're doing that now anyway, which is awesome. Um, but it's something that when you were in Boise, I wanted to say to you, I didn't know how to say it to you. I've just like, um, cause I look at you and I'm like, man, I have so much respect for you. Like, like why, why does

most people in our world not know who know who Mark Joyner is right now? It's like because partially it's obviously by design. That wasn't your goal and that wasn't your mission at the time. But part of it was just because it's like you were trying to maintain a certain positioning, which made you lose your positioning. I always tell people now, Mike, by trying to be significant, you'll lose your significance. By giving it away is when you become significant. It's um, it's kind of a hard thing to explain, but I hope that hope that kind of makes sense. Want more marketing secrets? If so, then go get your copies of my two bestselling books. Book number one is called expert secrets and you can

get a free copy at expert secrets.com and book number two is called.com secrets and you can get your free copy at.com secrets.com inside these two books, you'll find my top 35 secrets that we've used to become the fastest growing non-VC backed SaaS startup company in the world.