Marketing Secrets with Russell Brunson - Fulfillment and Achievement: A Deep Dive of "Atlas Shrugged" with Josh Forti (3 of 5)

Episode Date: October 30, 2024

We’re back with part 3 of my fascinating interview with Josh Forti and our special series exploring Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. In this installment we unpack powerful lessons from the book that continue to shape the way I think about business, value, and success. We focus on what it means to be a “prime mover” and discuss how producers can create meaningful change without losing their identity or purpose. Josh and I explore a variety of deep topics in this episode, from the importance of fulfilling work to navigating societal expectations around success. One of the standout moments was when we discussed Myron Golden’s “four levels of value” framework, which breaks down the hierarchy of contributions—from manual labor to visionary leadership—and why each level plays a crucial role. This conversation pushed us to ask hard questions about fulfillment and whether everyone needs to be an entrepreneur to feel truly alive. Key Topics and Questions Explored: Fulfillment vs. Achievement: Can someone find deep fulfillment in roles that society views as “average” or non-entrepreneurial? The Four Levels of Value: We break down how workers, managers, communicators, and visionaries contribute to building a thriving organization. Success and Societal Criticism: How do you thrive in a world where success can often be criticized or misunderstood? Balancing Ambition and Contribution: What does it take to succeed while still giving back to your family, community, and society? The Art of Writing as a Journey: I share insights about my next book project and how it’s reshaping the way I think about storytelling. If you’re someone trying to balance growth with purpose, or you’ve ever questioned the path you’re on, this episode will resonate deeply with you. It’s packed with thought-provoking ideas, actionable insights, and a few personal stories you won’t want to miss. Tune in, and let’s explore what it really means to shrug off limits and step into your full potential! Don't forget to check out this awesome deal from Mint Mobile! https://mintmobile.com/funnels And if you want to enjoy the Marketing Secrets Show ad-free, check out https://marketingsecrets.com/adfree Get 70% off on Welch Equities' retail price at wealthyconsultant.com/secrets Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's up everybody's Russell welcome back to the marketing seekers podcast We are coming back right now with part three of our Atlas Shrug series again This is from an interview with me and Josh 40 back in 2020 After the very first time I read Atlas Shrugged This is a fascinating like five or six hour long interview Hopefully had a chance listen to our number one which we posted two weeks ago than our number two last week and now we're on our number three this week, I hope you guys are enjoying this interview and it's getting you guys excited about all the things related to you as a prime mover, as a producer,

and someone who's trying to change the world. So with that said, I'm gonna jump into part three of the episode on Alistrugged. In the last decade, I went from being a startup entrepreneur to selling over a billion dollars of my own products and services online. This show's gonna to show you how to start, grow and scale a business online. My name is Russell Brunson and welcome to the Marketing Seekers podcast. Okay, I want to circle back to one quick thing and then we can move on to the question I

was trying to ask was like when you were like, hey, there's the technician or there's the plumber, there's this or there's that or then there's the person that comes in and makes it rain, right? Like, there's only a few people in an organization like make it rain, right? Like you in, in ClickFunnels, you make it rain. Like you're the one that like brings it in. And I'm sure there's other people like to a certain extent, but like you are that person and there's probably what you probably have what? 100, 200 people on the support team that don't actually make the company any money, but they do play a critical role in the sense of like the company couldn't function without them. Right. And so like to those people there,

how does somebody who like to our question one, can you live your best life in a position like that? Like, can you be most alive and fulfilled and like, like little great life doing something average like that? And number two, like, does that person need to go learn how to make it rain? Like does everybody need to be an entrepreneur? Does everybody need to be, like you are so fast and you got this whole community of funnel hackers and like we're gonna go out and change the world and like we don't get, we think differently, we do it differently with all this stuff.

Like does, would it be good if the whole world thought that way? Or like do we need people that don't think that way? Um, there's a time in life where I thought everyone should think that way. I don't think so now. I think some people like, I have family members who love what they do and they're obsessed with the art. The art is what they do. Some people like some like I've had good masseuses and bad masseuses. Some masseuses like that is their art. You can tell you're like oh my gosh like they're the best at their craft. And I think that's okay. I think if it brings

fulfillment like that's more important. But if you want to fulfill that's the second question. It's like, well, if you're not fulfilled, then why? And I think one of the most powerful things, Myron Golden taught this at the Final Awakening Live and he taught it to his comical, a couple of times. He has this thing called the four levels of value. And it's so fascinating. Cause first-

That's such a good- Yeah, so the first level of value for those who haven't heard this before is, and he talks about, and he, I'm gonna not do justice, like Myron's the man. The greatest speakers of all time. Go YouTube. I actually don't even know if it's on YouTube. I haven't, it's on my, anyway, yes.

But, so bottom level is, is people work with their hands, right? And this is the hardest work, like someone building, building, a person's like actually building the building or typing, you're doing support, or like whatever the thing is like, they're working with their hands, like that's the lowest level of value, right? Like the most you make when you're, when you work the hands is maybe 50, 60, 70,000 hours. You're like, but you're tapped out. You can't get higher than that. Now, excuse me, that's your calling

and you're good at it. You love it. Like go all in, like become the best in the world that thing. And that's totally cool. But you're not, but like you cap out on salary. You can't make more money at a certain point. Cause that's what the value of, of the, that tier value.

The next year value. Then if you move up one tier, is management, right? Someone who can manage all of the workers, right? And there's people who, like, one of the big mistakes we made inside ClickFunnels, we took the people inside of our team who were the best workers, and we upgraded them out into management.

And they were horrible managers. Amazing workers, moving to the management, and managing, but they weren't managers. Like, this is a different mindset. So it's like, they can go learn that, but that's not where they were gifted, right? And a lot of times it was irreparable. We couldn't move them back down

because in their mind, like, oh, I'm the manager now. It's like, no, I think one of the things we learned is like, someone can work, be a worker and make more money than the manager, right? Because just because sometimes their skill set, like programmers and developers, like getting an amazing programmer to code something is a lot of times worth more than the manager

who's managing that person. But in most businesses, more organizations manage next year, right? Because you make more money as a manager because you're managing a lot of, excuse me, a lot of workers as opposed to one. Then you go to the next tier value and it's like the communicators, right? People learn how to talk and to sell. Like that's the next thing. You make more selling and you're managing and you typically make more managing than you actually doing the thing. And not everyone's going to be great sales people. I think it's a teachable skill. I think you may have seen my early videos. Like, if anyone thinks this is a gift that I was born with, it is not. It is something that's been developed.

You guys, you should go look at Russell's old videos. They are so amazing. They are the worst ever. Yeah. When I was your age, I was not, I would not have been able to do this. Like it's, it's crazy. Um, and so that tier is, is is communicators and the top tier are the visionaries. Like imagining it. You're using your brain to make money. So you're using your brain, your mouth, your management skills or your hands. Like those are the four tiers of value. And so I think wherever you fit in there, it's like, that's cool. Like we need people all the tiers, but like I had to podcast about this for the day. I'm like, if you're going to be, whatever you're going to be at, like don't just be a person doing it.

Become the best in the world. Um, like we were in, uh, Oak Spokatone's event and uh, we were in a hotel and it was kind of weird because there's a spa, right? All excited to get massages, but it's also COVID right now. So like the masseuse has a mask on, they have plastic gloves. It was like, it was weird. I got my very first massage. We said they, uh, they paid for some massage, two massages.

So I was like, it'll be fun. First massage was so bad. I was like, I never want to get a massage again ever. Like it was just- it was so bad. And I'm sitting there on the table, it was only an hour long massage. By the time it was done, I was like, I wanna get out of here. Like this is just weird and horrible. I did not enjoy it.

And I'm a massage person. Yeah, I love massages. Yeah. And I was like, I never want to massage again. But they'd already booked us for the next day for the second one. And I was annoyed. I went to the second one. And same thing, she's got plastic gloves on that we have to do and the mask and it's kind of like,

oh, I don't even want to be here. And then she puts her hands on me and it's just like, it was art, like it was different. And I was like, both of them are doing the same job, right? But somebody's like, I want to be the best in the world versus like, I'm just doing the thing. You see that in every, every area of life. You look at the chiropractors,

there's chiropractors of the good and there's ones that are great. Doctors, like dentists, business, like, I'm more of like wherever You look at chiropractors, there's chiropractors that are good and there's ones that are great. Doctors, dentists, business, like I'm more of like wherever you're at, like don't just be mediocre, like become the best in the world there. That's more important to me than, you know, if you're gonna be a plumber, be the plumber who you walk in. Like we've had our house, so many plumbers come in, we had some that come in, they fix the leak and then some of those breaks and they go, another guy should come in and they check everything, making sure it's perfect. It's like, I would rather, like, I want that person,

I want the artist, I want the person like, this is their art, not just like, oh, best job I could find, like. Yeah. Anyway. All right, so now I'm about to ask you a question and I understand this is totally like, just like, your opinion on it.

There's nothing, but maybe you have something to base it on. So like, the person that is at those lower levels of value, right, the average worker that's out there that's doing their thing, Like the person that is at those lower levels of value, right? The average worker that's out there that's doing their thing, especially in today's super soft victim mentality, America that wants to vote for free stuff makes me so mad. Anyway, so like the average person like that's out there looks up at people that make a lot of money and like kind of the general consensus, I think, or the way that America slash the world is going is like rich people are bad, right? Like,

like, you're, you're so greedy, man. Like you got all this money and like, you're not giving any to me. And like you get to go sit in your massive house and your cars and you can do whatever you want. And so like, even if they are doing what they are called to do, like they'll look up to a millionaire, a billionaire, like someone that has like all this stuff, and they'll look at it as bad, like that shouldn't happen. Like how do you create a society, and this is why I know it's a big picture, like type stuff, but like how do you create a society

that allows people to be okay with being the best version of themselves, like where they're at, without looking at you and being like you're bad. Like you know what I mean? Yeah. Well it's not gonna happen in our lifetime. It's not gonna happen, my belief, till Christ comes again.

And when he does, it'll be a perfect, you know, things will be great. But until then, it's not gonna happen because humans are humans, right? You mean Donald Trump's not gonna just fix everything? If he does, that'd be amazing. But I'm not holding my breath. But I would say more so just for anyone who feels that way. Like I would look at that more. And I did a podcast about this.

Like, if you're not someone who celebrates other people's successes, everybody, I don't care if you hate the person, if you're a big fan or you're not a big fan, if you don't celebrate their success, then you are going to struggle to ever be successful because you're gonna be so scared of other people not celebrating your success. I remember I'm not I'm not a huge Gary Vee fan. You know this. Yeah. For reasons I'll talk about in my next book. But so when I when I tweet this out on Twitter, Gary, when you're following me shout out, but by the way, the Patriots won the Super Bowl in the Jets just throw that out there. All right, continue. I just guarantee you'd never come up with that.

I do like Gary. I just, we had Eddie with him. But whatever. He doesn't remember it, I'm sure. But anyway, he got the shoe deal with whatever. The shoes. Yeah, Adidas. And he's in our market.

And like for a half a second, I was like, ah, that sucks. And then I was like, he freaking, he's in our industry and he got a shoe deal. And I ran to my computer. Or Case West, yeah. The Case West. I bought the shoes. I got them to see it. And I was like, he freaking, he's in our industry and he got a shoe deal. And I ran to my computer. The case was I bought the shoes, I got them here and I was like, I did a podcast celebrating the fact that someone in our community got a shoe deal

and all these things. And a bunch of people that I know were like, I felt like, you're not a big Gary fan. I'm like, I'm not, but that's a huge success. Like we should celebrate success. Because if you don't, then what's gonna automatically happen in your head, if you're not celebrating people's successes,

you have the subconscious fear that someone's not gonna do yours, and so you're gonna stifle yourself from being successful. So I try, when anybody around me is having success, whether I like them or I don't like them, I always am like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna try to celebrate it. And then by doing that, it changes your brain to the spot where you're okay having success

because you're assuming everyone's gonna celebrate like you, and they not going to. But it's different. Subconsciously, you are not celebrating other people's successes. It'll stifle you from ever having your own. And so I think that's a big part of it. If that's where you're at right now, it's something you gotta change. And we start making that little shift and start celebrating people's successes above you. It's freeing. It's amazing. Because then it's all sudden you're like unlocking yourself. Like I can succeed because they did and people are going to celebrate me. And like it just, it shifts those like psychological things that you do and it changed everything. It's weird. Do you think you're not political like hardly at all? Like

do you even pay attention? No, no, not too much. Like I was like, I was like, Hey, so those who read the book Hank Reardon, he like, and this is part of his demise is he never he doesn't pay attention to at all. So as I read the book, I'm like, Hey, career doesn't pay attention. I don't pay attention. Like, like, and real quick, we do shout out for these shirts again. Yeah. By the way, how many guys what would like one of these shirts? Let's make them come up for this. Okay, guys, how many of you want to share? Yes or no? Comment yes or no down below. So this is the rear and still one. This is the who is John Gall one. Pretty dope. I'm not gonna lie though. Like that was pretty dope. But this one wins for one reason.

Like that the quote is cool. We could put that quote on this one too and make it silver. Ooh. Ooh, okay. This is my selfish pitch kind of. Okay. Yeah. Can Russell, hey guys, can I do a pitch real quick? You can't myself something. Can he sell something to you? Keep in mind, I make no money off this. I don't even know what he's doing. I think anyway. No, we have a little fun site we created just because they'd be fun called t-shirts, smackdown.com

where we have two shirts and then people vote with their walls and which shirt they want better. So if you guys want these shirts, you can actually buy whichever one is your favorite or both you like them both. You can go to t-shirts, smackdown.com and they're up there right now. And guess who's the models on t-shirts back down? I assume we the models and you go to smackdown.com. Yeah, you can get one or two. Oh my gosh. Look at that. Your team, your team's amazing, dude. They put it together like that fast. Okay. Let's get out of the book here for a second. The audible door, the password

that was audible. When I read that, I was like, that's like a brilliant mind at work. Right? It's like you have to say it. And the part that I thought was interesting was he, it wasn't just the words he's like, and it's, it's programmed to where it will not open unless like the person that is saying it, like is actually like saying it with conviction or like something that effect like they actually have to like mean it. Yeah, right. You can't just be like ba-da-da-da-da. Okay, cool. I'm in like it. Now you guys want to read the book so bad. You want to? Okay. All right. Let's we'll come back to t-shirt smack down. Comment down below. Let us know. And let us know guys, let us know down in the comments. And if you're listening on audio,

you can like go leave a rating and review and like leave us in the comments. But like if you're listening YouTube, Facebook, wherever, like comment down below where the best part of your favorite part of the conversation was so far. I think that'd be super cool. What's up everybody? This is Russell Brunson. I've got something really cool for you today from my friend Taylor Wells. Taylor spoke at our last Funnel Hacking Live because I wanted him to share a really cool

concept about what he calls the revolving pricing method. And today he decided to sponsor the podcast to give you guys more access to this super cool strategy that you are going to love. It's something we've been implementing into our high end coaching program as well and it is amazing. But to kind of give you some context about this offer he's making for you guys, as you may or may not know, a few years ago, JP Morgan Chase did a study and guess what they found? They found that the average small business only has about 28 days of operating expenses

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It looks like I paid hundreds of dollars, but nope, it was just 60 bucks. If you're ready to upgrade your fall wardrobe without breaking the bank, head on over to quince.com slash clicks for free shipping and 365 day return policy. That's q u i n c e dot com slash clicks. Seriously, free shipping and a whole year to return. You've got nothing to lose and a whole bunch of really cool cashmere to gain. So go treat yourself to some wardrobe upgrades today at quince.com slash clicks. Okay. Let's get out of the book for a second here. I actually have a lot of questions about the book, but I want to know like what was like your favorite scene. Oh So many good things my favorite scene the book

So it's kind of like the crescendo of the whole book his whole book that's and who's John Gall who's John Gall? Okay, hold on. Sorry, Dave. Dave is sitting here in the background. Have you read the book Dave? Okay So I'm just making sure you're making sure that you like you're not just sitting over here like I got freaking out Dave's like I have to read it too I was like I need to talk to somebody. Dave, go read this. I'll see you in six months. Fair brother book. Okay. Fair brother book. So the whole book's linked to who's John Gall, who's John Gall. We kind of introduced him a little bit when Dagny meets him and then she leaves and goes back to the real world. And all of a sudden, there's this part where the looters and the government are trying to like do this broadcast and all of a

sudden the broadcast is interrupted and they're trying to figure out how to fix it. But all the people who would fix it have been taken. Because all the great minds of society are gone. And all of a sudden, over the loudspeaker comes John Galt. And he starts to speech. And the speech, I think, is 80 pages in the book. It's like four hours on the audio book. Four hours.

This is why you don't watch the movie, by the way, because it's less than 30 seconds in the movie. How do you take four hours? Like, it such a good anyway. He gets on his microphone broadcasting the entire world. Nobody can cut him off and he gives this speech about big. Everything the whole book. I'm just like freaking out. The setup was so crazy. Also it happens. I was like, ah, and anyway, that was my, and he ends with this. Yeah. And he goes, and I'll say it like one last time I pledged my life and my love of it that I will never live for this take another man or ask another man to live for mine. Anyway, that was my favorite part. The 80 page four hour long version of it.

Okay. Oh yeah. So good. Okay. I like that. My favorite part of the book. I read this. I was like, so I like I like play my life on like act like I'm in a movie, right? Sometimes I'm like, do this. So do you remember at the wedding? Oh, Francisco speed. Oh, yeah. So that might have been better. I get done with that chapter. And I like, I promised Leah I would be done after this chapter. And like, it ends up like, I know. Yeah, I do think so the jungle had a better deal. And then like, like, I didn't know it was coming. Like, there's what everything and then all of a sudden starts happening.

It's like out of freaking nowhere. Yeah. So Frank, Frank cone, just, uh, Francisco, yeah, he gives a speech that was like, yeah, I wasn't expecting it. So I think it was less build up. It was amazing. Yeah. The jungle buildup was like, this is like, I was waiting to see that movie. So I was like, yeah, I wasn't expecting it. So I think it was less buildup. It was amazing. Yeah. The John Galt buildup was like, this is like I was waiting to see that movie. So I was like, amazing. Then it's like, come on, like, come on. Anyway. Yeah, those are the two best parts. Yeah. Yeah. At that wedding, like I'm reading this and I'm like, that was when like it was like that that moment I was like, okay, she she finally like made it all like and it was relatively early on in the book. I was like, oh, if the book follows anything like this, this is going to be such a good

book. Because he gets down with that and you just, it's something you'd want to watch out in real life. And somebody thought this up and wrote it down and you're just like, ugh, it's so good. Yeah, that was so good. That was hands down my favorite part. I want to read the book again. I wish it was in 1,200 pages because I want to go back and experience it, but it's so big. Okay. Have you read the cliff

notes version of the book? No. Okay. So yeah. So there is, there's, I think there's the cliff notes, like the one that you buy. I think it's like a four hour audio book. I haven't listened to that one, but usually like cliffnotes.com like read the book. You can basically, you can basically get a summary of the whole book in like 30 to 45 minutes. I read it. Still worth reading though. guys. Oh, oh, 100%. 100%. But and actually that's the reason I bring it up because like, I know it's 1200 pages, but like you don't like if you just read the cliff and you're like, oh, okay, like cool storyline, but like you miss the effect like the oomph of it all.

One of the things that I thought was fascinating, and this is because like I'm working on my next book, which is like, it's not a how to books. I'm learning how to write differently. So I've been reading a lot about it. I'm really proud of I'm excited for it. But one thing was interesting, like if you look at how I and ran to the dialogue in the book, she did all the dialogue was one person speaking. So it's fascinating every time you notice that like, when, when her partner was in the

cafeteria with some guy we didn't know, you only hear his words, you never hear the other side. And most of her dialogues, which is she heard the one person talking and you could get the gist of the conversation by reading one side, but they'd never had the other side. And I'd never seen someone write that way before. And there's a lot of cool things like that.

Where it's just like people, and like, again, I've written three books now, but like I wrote books with Google Docs, with editors and people. Like imagine writing a book in the 50s with a typewriter. I think how much pre-fourth thought has to go to something like this. That's wild. It is insane to think that. Yeah.

So like I have so much respect for people who wrote then and especially I'm trying to learn how to write as a story as opposed to how to and it's like the art of is is just fascinating and as a book it's just like it's worth reading just like to see how she wrote is fascinating as well. What was your biggest... Actually, I want to go down that rabbit hole a little bit further. So writing and... Is your next book fiction or not?

No, it's just the next book is... I bought bootstrap.com. The next book is Bootstrap and it's the ClickFunnel story. It's not like the how-to, it's telling the story as the story, which is gonna be cool. It's gonna be so good. It's like the first thing we're doing is all the core people who have been part of the ClickFunnels story are flying them out and interviewing them for, we have been mapping out the entire timeline of events as close as I can remember and interviewing them all

the pieces from their point of view. Trying to get that from like 50 different people and then take all that stuff, sync the timelines up and write the book as a story. Anyway, so it's a different writing style never done before that's interesting because oh yeah they want to tell you the cool part so I'm also like been regeeking out on like heroes a thousand faces and heroes two journeys and like all that stuff I want to make sure well someday I want to try to sell the Hollywood or something so who knows I don't have the end of the story

yet but like but so I'm which is by the way, super fascinating because like the concept of like going for a target and then like going towards it like you don't know the end. Now you're just like, yeah, so cool. It was cool. I was like, so much fun to watch. So like I'm writing, so I've been geeking out on the hero's journey. So I'm like, I'm trying to sync the timeline of the ClickFunnels startup story to the timeline of the hero thousand faces, like to all the core

things to see if I can get it to fit inside that framework, which I think we'll be able to do. That way, yeah, it's going to be amazing. And then what I'm trying to do in my new office is I'm going to build the room where it's like a timeline. So the entire room wraps in a huge, like, like a chalkboard with like a timeline that goes around has like the dates and here's dirty stuff right and then like you know you're like writing in each core thing on the on the wall and then you know like the even the spy movies where you have like the string that goes you have the pieces of paper yeah so like as i'm writing the book i want to have the whole thing timed out in the square room and so you see it all and they can see all the pieces how they all

fit together and then that'll when the book's done in that room, that'll be the wallpaper on the room forever. Oh my gosh. Okay. All right. So here's, here's a great idea. So you like you do that up until like a certain point, like this is modern day. And then there's like an end of the wall. And then like from that point to there, that's when you're writing, when you get to the end of the wall, you have to sell everything and go into hiding and become John Galt. Like that book's done. I'm there. We go. That's fascinating.

Anyway, so when I get right, right story, that's way different. It's not like all my other books are how to books. So it's like they're written differently. And so it's just been fun. Which by the way, is why I was like, when I like first got into entrepreneurship, I was like, I don't know why anybody would write a book that's not like that. Like I'm like, what? Why would anybody write a book like this? This is so lame. And now I'm like reading it and I'm like, Oh my gosh, it's so cool. Yeah.

I have a ton of respect. It's like the books I'm reading right now. Like I just fish shoe dog, which is like the story. Oh, that's a great book. Uh, American kingpin, which is like the story of the silk road and the dark web. My favorite source I've ever read twice already. And the writer is probably the best writers I've ever. I gave, I read it and I was so depressed.

I was like, I'll never rise. Cause as him. I tried to hire him to write my book for me, but he's too busy. I will give you a blank check. Just write this book. You're so much better than I can ever dream of. So I had to go learn how to do it. What was your most, like what was the most fascinating thing about Atlas Struck to you? Like if any, like the way it was written or the concepts or the characters, like any, what was the overall like the most fascinating part for you? Man, character development is so cool. I think the coolest thing for me was like,

each, I'd love to see some diagrams, I don't know it, but like each of the characters each played, like they're a character, they played a role that is like this magnified society as like a group almost, right? Like, yeah, that's actually super true. Like, they get paid for it and Dagny and then like, James Taggart.

Oh my God. Taggart's wife. Yeah. Like all the people, they were like, they were humans, but they were personification of like a segment of society, which is really cool. And so it was like seeing that where you're just like, they were humans, but they were personification of like a segment of society, which is really cool. And so it's like seeing that we're just like, you're getting this like micro versions macro problem. That was cool because like I'd never, again, I don't

study politics. I'm not deep into it. So I don't know all these things. And like you hear this character and you hear the story. And honestly, like, oh my gosh, I represent this group of people that I, and so for me it was cool because I was able to understand things at a different level. And I'm not the best at this, but I always try to put myself in other people's shoes. I try to understand, that's why I'm not super political because it gets so divisive.

And I'm like, I see good on both sides. I understand I can love people on both sides of it. I think it was so cool for me because I was able to, you see the pros and the cons of each thing, right? You see the positive and negatives of each belief pattern. Like, in career, as much as I related to him, it's like pros and cons of each thing, right? You see the positive and negatives of each belief pattern. Like, as much as I related to him, it's like, there's the good and evil, right? Yeah, there's good and evil.

Like all of them have that. And so like, it was just cool because it gave me this perspective I didn't know of so many different segments of society. It made this really cool tapestry and picture for me. Huh. All right. So now the polar opposite, like what do you think the book lacked in or like, like didn't communicate well or like left out?

I think something to talk about today, like, I do feel like most of the producers in the book, they didn't have the other side of it, right? Like, the social stuff is important, like helping other people is important. I get why she didn't, like I said, the Phil Donahue interview, she's like, people should be social. They shouldn't do with the gun. She never showed that she didn't show Hank Reardon going and like, Oh, this is the cause I care about. Like, let me go and at all, you know, in any part. And I think that's, that's important. Like, that's why, you know,

we talk about the political on the left side, like, like they're, what they're trying to do is good. It's right. Like it's, it's from God. Like it's just so good things, right? But there's like, there's ways that people twist and all sorts of stuff like that. And I, I wish they would show more of that because I felt like the characters were one sided where it's just like, you know, it's like the people are the looters or the people that are producers. And I feel like there's more blend. I think for all of us, we have blends of those things. Yeah. And they did a good job. It's dissected. You can You can see it. You know, I think we all have both things. Like I wanna give, I wanna serve, I wanna do things,

but I also wanna produce, I wanna do both those things. Right, like how do, like what's the world look like where we do both of those things? And I don't know how to, you know, in my little universe, I've created for myself, my family, like I'm trying to produce, then we got OUR, we got these things like I'm trying to contribute,

I'm trying to do my version of what I think is right. All we can do is what we think is right in our own little world that we create. And so this is my world I've created, I'm trying my best to do it. And I wish that they would have showed some outside. I think that was the part I felt the characters were missing, just that part of it.

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Okay, well, and I'm so glad you brought this up. What I think is interesting is my takeaway from, or like the thing that I felt like the book was lacking the most is nobody had kids. Oh, I didn't think about that. Like think about this. Like none of them, like, because one of my questions, she was going to be like, how has how's having kids and I kind of asked her earlier, like kind of change perspective.

But I'm like, interesting. Nobody had kids. So like, and, and I don't have kids. I'm not married. I don't have kids. I'm getting I'm getting married. Yeah. Shout out to my beautiful fiance.

All right. But like, for me, like like I'm so focused right now. So I grew up in a big family, right? Eight kids. I'm the oldest living. I had one older brother who passed away, but like six younger siblings. And so like for me, I'm like, man, like my whole life changes once there's kids in it. And like, I know that even though I haven't experienced it, because I've seen it.

Right. And so for me, and like Lee and I have talked about this, it's like the twenties are for us, thirties are for kids. Right. Like, and so I'm like, I gotta make as much money as I possibly can before them because I even told Collette this, I said, if there's, there's one thing that I would sacrifice my career for in order to be able to do would be like to homeschool my kids. Like I can't fathom sending my kids to public school, right. That's just me because I grew up homeschool or whatnot. But like, as I was going through the book, I'm like, I can relate to all these people, but like they're leaving out like this key component, like imagine being Hank

reared in and like living like he did with with your five kids. Or do you have five? Yeah, okay. I was gonna say four. I was like, Oh my gosh. So like, think about that. You know anything? And so I feel like one of the because there's a lot of people I know that have read Atlas. Like heck yeah, man, like, like for profit, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, yeah, but like imagine living your life that way with a family. Like imagine living your life like that, like with the kids and responsibilities, like people that you actually like love. How?

Think about this because like our timeline, it comes back to what we talked about with greed and contributions, you know, or growth and contribution, right? So most of us, we get born, well all of us we get born, right, only way to get here, we all born, right? And from like, when you're born till you're whatever. For me, I got married at 22, I was 22, right? And so it's like, the first 21 years, it's all about you, right?

Like it's selfish, it's growth, it's like whatever, it's you, you, you, right? And everyone's very inward focused. And then all of a sudden, you meet this beautiful person and then you fall in love, like this amazing. And also what happens is it shifts from you, you, you to like us. And like you're giving, taking, giving. And it's cool because like, also all your focus is on you, it's on somebody else. And but they're focused on you too. And it's like this, this amazing thing where like, I'm giving, but I'm also getting, it's like this amazing thing, right? It's like this transition that's easing you into kids because then kids come out. And it's it

flips now where it's like the opposite where you're just serving 100% especially the very beginning of the kids like there's nothing like I was joking my kids about this. One night when they're like, why are you guys so mean? I'm like, do you realize like, we get no value from this, we don't get paid a penny from this. Like there's nothing in parenting. Like we kill ourselves, we serve, we don't sleep, we work, we pay money, we get and that's not true. We there no value from this. We don't get paid a penny from this. Like there's nothing in parenting. Like we kill ourselves. We serve, we don't sleep, we work, we pay money.

And that's not true. There's value in it. But like, I was like, I was just sitting there imagining Russell telling his kids, we get no value, you do not pay us. You know, I'm like, I'm killing myself. To be fair, you do get a tax break. Yeah.

Yeah. But it's just funny because I'm like, you know, and so, but especially the first board, like they're cute and you get less, but they're in that selfish phase now where you're giving 100% and they're not giving back other than like they get going cute and like, oh, it's so cute. But for the most part, it's like, if you have this like training, this time where you're selfish and it's like, oh, I'm, I'm serving someone else, but they're serving me amazing

now since like 100% service there. And I think that that's a good point. Like, hey, career, you only done this thing. And then, you know, you never had a chance like 100% serve somebody else and and see what that's like because that the value you get as a parent is is when you serve 100% of the kids and you see like who they become and you know and that's the value but um but it doesn't come from like from like the the quick pro quo that you normally get with like i'm gonna buy this thing or pay for this thing right ever right it's like i'm gonna serve and serve and serve and then eventually hopefully someday days turn to be yeah well cuz I and that's a super interesting point and

Maybe that's maybe that's why she left the part out of it She was like none of these people would ever have she didn't have kids. That's to be you know I never seen that He's not that I'm where I'm pretty that's crazy Cuz what like I was you know going through and I'm like, this book I think would mean so much diff or like, so like when I first read it, like I said, whenever I first learned about this back in high school, right? Like I read it and I was like, I hated reading.

I publicly declared, and it's actually funny, like when I graduated high school, I bought myself a pickup truck. I was on the top of the pickup truck and I publicly declared to the world that I would never read another book ever again in life. I hated reading. Right. And so that's funny because I'm reading 12 or 13 books and I read every one of those books back there. Like it didn't really take on the same effect as like now, like being an entrepreneur, like being someone that like at one point I have five employees. I'm like 26 years old, you know, and so like now I'm reading and I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But if I read it with kids, I feel like that would even like give

me a like a completely different perspective on like it. How has, how is having kids changed your, cause you were an entrepreneur like basically from one, right? Like you never really had a job, right? I've served tables and I had a job more than three months. Okay. So yeah. So you're a failure in the normal society, right? You can't hold a job. You're you know, yeah, you get fired forever.

Like how has change or how's having kids and like having a balance man like dude, you're running a click fund. There's a billion dollar company, right? We're allowed to say that. Like that's the thing, right? Like roughly like I'm not off on that. All right. The value is based what you will pay for. So hopefully some place where to say that like that's the thing right like roughly like I'm not off on that All right, the value is based what you will pay for so hopefully some place

So we're to say a billion dollar company. So like you're running this billion our company You've made hundreds of millions of dollars. You've been paid a million dollars an hour from stage before what I like big props. Congratulations like how has Balancing work now with that like with the kids like growing up I feel like like now they're at because your oldest is what you old 14 almost 15 right so like how has that changed the way that you view your work like you struggle with that like the balance yeah especially now with like covid stuff happening kids being homeschooled when now it's like you for as

easy as separates like they're going to school i'm going to hear separation it's easy now it's harder because like they're still home and it's like, oh should I be there? Like you know, it's definitely tough. And it's interesting. I have so many entrepreneurial friends, I always tease them because it's like you don't have any kids and they're doing amazing things. I'm like, yeah but like I'm doing this stuff and I got five kids and a beautiful wife and I got colleagues in my church and there's like so many things. I think it's just, I think I hired a trainer, Dave knows a safe things. I think it's just, I think, I hired a trainer, Dave knows a safe trainer. I remember when he started working this, he said the biggest thing he noticed when he started

working with me is that you'll be shocked what your body can actually endure. I think that most people don't understand what they can actually do. Like, how do you run a company that's big and have a family and have a successful marriage and have these, like, you can do it. Like most people don't because they sedate

and like, I don't watch four hours of football at night because they have all these other things, right? Like, I don't know, it's just like, if you take away the excuse of sedation, like you can produce so much more than I think people are able to understand. I don't know. So it's interesting.

And then it's been such a weird thing too with kids because I think when you first start having kids, you assume they're all gonna be like you, right? Like, oh, they're all gonna be entrepreneurs. It's so much fun. And then, you know, I had twins. It was crazy. Twins were our first two became our twins.

Now they're, you know, 14, almost 15. It's crazy because I assume like, you know, I'll be the same. Same as me. Or these same together. And they are so polar opposites, right? Like, yeah, I didn't even know. I just thought out today that they were twins. Yeah, like I had no clue.

Collin's like, yeah, they're both turning 15. I'm like, wait, what? Yeah. Okay, they're acting each other. And like one's more, what? Yeah. They're looking at each other, acting at each other. And like one's more entrepreneurial, one's more, like if you look at like this profile, we have a DI with an SC, like introvert, extrovert. Like all the things are different. And I always thought, you know, like my kids are entrepreneurs like me.

And now it's like, no, I don't think they have to be. This kind of goes back to earlier, like, you know, with my kids, I'm like, what do you want to do? And, you know, I think one of my things, some of my kids, I'm like, what do you want to do? And I think one of my things, some of my kids are very entrepreneurial, a lot of them aren't. I think some of my kids are super smart, hard workers. We're going to be amazing at the roles they play in something. They're going to be a huge part of changing somebody's world, but it's not going to be the front person of it, right? And so it's been interesting watching that

and fulfilling and hard and it's all the things wrapped into one. You know, it's, I don't know, it's, it's an interesting experience. You're gonna love it. You start having kids right away. Yeah, that's not gonna happen. Okay, but why though? You should take time. Okay, but how long did you wait? Uh, two? Let's see. Let's see, we had our 18th anniversary. This kid's turning 15. So almost three years you have. Three years before. We tried earlier, but we had fertility drugs, stuff like that had our 18th anniversary, this kid's turning 15, almost three years.

We tried earlier, but we had fertility drugs, stuff like that, and everything. But yeah, it's about two years when we started training. Yeah, I can't, kids scare me, dude. Man, I'll tell you what. But, so like, it's interesting because like I grew up with six younger siblings. So like I was definitely old enough to remember like the whole diaper phase and like, you know, obviously I wasn't the parent with it, but like, and the church that I went to, like the eight was like average

to small amount of kids. Like a lot of them were like 13 kids, 12 kids, 14 kids, wherever. Like, I think the smallest in our whole church was four, right? Like, and they were the weird ones, right? You only have four kids. Right.

And so it's like everywhere we went, that's just like what it was. And so for me, like I had that rebellion phase, if you will, which I don't know what they call it rebellion phase, but like where I was like, I don't want any of this. Like, why would you like they're expensive and, and they like suck all the time and I can't go do this. I'm like, I want to be so filthy rich before I go like having kids. And so, and I like taught Sunday school and like was very involved in like the church growing up and things like suck all the time and I can't go do this. I'm like, I want to be so filthy rich before I go like having kids. And so, and I like taught Sunday school and like was very involved in like the church growing up and things like that. And so for me, it was like, I want to go build my business, like building

on like doing that as like more fun. The interesting thing about kids. And I told my parents this, I don't remember what it was, but like my parents are not like my parents aren't like super like wealthy or like successful when it comes to business or anything like that. But like I look at my parents as like some of the most successful people that I've ever met in my life because my mom's favorite, but there's like little things that my mom liked telling me over and over and over again.

And she's like, one of her favorite lines is the only thing I need to know in life is like, I just need to know that my children walk in truth. Right. And I'm like my mom, particularly and my dad too, like both of them, but like I related with my mom because she keeps saying it, is like my mom's definition of success and like achievement was do my children walk in truth? Do my children, like that is what was success to her.

And like, she's like, you can take, you know, like, yeah, money would have been great, like all these different things, but like that was like kind of this pinnacle of success for her is like, do my kids like walk in truth? And so as I have gone through my own journey of faith, which has been, I mean, it has been rough at times, right? Like I've watched her like struggle with it

and like freak out because she's like, I just want, I'm like, but it's not, like that's not her journey to bear, but like it is like at the same time. And so it's always been interesting, like kids are like this thing where I feel like once I have them, obviously they're, I'm there for the rest of my life. Like, I feel like there's this distress or like this new, there's this new piece of my

life that's unlocked that like I've never explored before. I don't know anything about it. Right. And I'm like, afraid isn't the right word, but I'm like pushing that off that is as long as I possibly can. And because once that's open, then I never get to close it again. And like that mystery is almost like fun to like look forward to. But at the same time, be like, I get to focus on it. I mean,

it's interesting. I remember thinking about a lot, especially first few years. I was like, this is so much harder than I thought it was going to be. I thought I was like, I thought it was going to be, you know, whatever, way harder. But I also remember feeling and saying a lot like this is so much cooler than I ever dreamt of. So it was like this double edged sword where I was like, man, I didn't realize how tired and like worn out and like all these things. But then like, so much better than I thought. And it's funny because I know a lot of friends are like, well, we're gonna make money than all the kids.

I don't think, I don't know, it's different. Like I would just have kids like, you can do both. It's not impossible. Especially the first born, they sit there and they're like you know and I would throw I'd spend a year tuning just nod. Right, right, right. But like I wouldn't wait till like oh I need a million bucks in the bank. I get people all the time like I have I know people who are broke they have eight kids like just they're not that expensive right? Like Cheerios are not that expensive like if you need to you know like it's just it's just it's just being willing

to be there and be loving and being present for as much as you can. Another thing that's been interesting, especially now that our kids are in teenagers, it's like so much harder. That's been harder. Just like, really? That's harder than when they're young. Oh, for sure. Yeah. It's over here to the lab. Oh gosh. What am I in for Dave? Oh no. The young heart is like, I am tired. Like that's the hard part when you're young. When they're older, it's just like, am I messing these kids up?

Like I just want them to be successful. Like that's the bigger fear. And it was interesting. I remember the old thing that gave me some grace like Tom Ville, I heard it on Instagram, post the ad of him talking about how being a parent and it was so funny because he's like, who here is scared that you're gonna F up your kids? That was how he would have said it. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Who's the best of your

kids? And everyone's hands like, yeah, I'm scared. He's like, guess what? Make sure you get this right. He's like, my parents messed me up. Your parents like, you're gonna mess your kids up. But guess what? We turned out okay in the end. Like, just the okay fact you're gonna mess your kids up because you are. And I remember I was like, okay. Like everyone messed up their kids. Like that's part of it. Like that's part of the whole journey. That's the journey. You know, it's like, that's part of it. And I think it gave me some grace. I'm just like, look, I'm gonna do my best. I'm probably gonna mess them up. But at the same time, like you have to have faith. Like they're gonna do their thing

and and they're gonna hopefully make good decisions. And if not, that's why we have God. That's why we have repentance. All these things, you know, and just kind of leave it to Him and, you know, do your best.