Marketing Secrets with Russell Brunson - Inside the Copywriting Brain That Powers My Funnels | #Marketing - Ep. 24

Episode Date: April 7, 2025

In this episode of The Russell Brunson Show, I sit down with my head copywriter Heath… Who’s been quietly writing behind the curtain for the past five years.  And let me tell you… it was a blast to talk copy, creativity, and what actually makes great marketing work with one of the most talented people on my team!  We go deep on advertorials (what they are, why they work, and how they’re still crushing it today), plus Heath shares how improv, fiction writing, and a background in comedy helped him become one of the best direct response copywriters I’ve ever met. We also talk about nerding out on old ad copy, why I collect hundred-year-old Napoleon Hill manuscripts, and how lived experience always beats AI when it comes to great copy that connects. This one’s part masterclass, part origin story, and part love letter to the lost art of persuasion. And… 100% fun!  Key Highlights: The surprising way I accidentally hired Heath (and why his 40-minute “No thanks” video sealed the deal) What an “advertorial” actually is - and why it works better than you think Why copywriting is really just “copy collecting” The lost power of voice, tone, and writing from lived experience How AI can help, but will never replace the hook you found at the gym yesterday Our step-by-step process for building the Zuma Juice funnel from scratch Why copywriting is the most valuable skill most entrepreneurs never master If you’re a copywriter, a funnel builder, or just someone trying to sell better… This episode is a can’t miss for you! https://sellingonline.com/podcast https://clickfunnels.com/podcast https://30days.com Special thanks to our sponsors: NordVPN: EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal https://nordvpn.com/secrets Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! Northwest Registered Agent: Go to northwestregisteredagent.com/russell to start your business with Northwest Registered Agent. LinkedIn Marketing Solutions: Get a $100 credit on your next campaign at LinkedIn.com/CLICKS Rocket Money: Cancel unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster at RocketMoney.com/RUSSELL Indeed: Get a $75 sponsored job credit to boost your job's visibility at Indeed.com/clicks Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

With the Fizz loyalty program, you get rewarded just for having a mobile plan. You know, for texting and stuff. And if you're not getting rewards like extra data and dollars off with your mobile plan, you're not with Fizz. Switch today. Conditions apply. Details at fizz.ca. Do you have a funnel but it's not converting? The problem 99.9% of the time is that your funnel is good, but you suck at selling. If you want to learn how to sell so your funnels will actually convert, then get a ticket to my next Selling Online event by going to sellingonline.com slash podcast.

That's sellingonline.com slash podcast. This is the Russell Brunson Show. What's up everybody, this is Russell. Welcome back to the show. I've got a special episode today. I drug one of my favorite people in the room to talk with me and he's a little nervous his first time on the podcast.

But I'm excited because he's here in town. Heath is our head copywriter for now five years, right? Yeah, it's been five years. So the way I found Heath originally and no one can hire him so don't Google his name. I don't even tell you his last name. No the way I found him initially is Kelly Felix. I hired him for something and he was showing me how he'd scaled his credit repair thing to like $100 million a year or something.

And I was going through all the trainings and he's like, oh, one of the things we use a lot are avatorials. And I had never, I'd heard of one, but I'd never done them before. I was like, do you know anyone you recommend? And he's like, oh, there's this writer named Heath. He's like the best in the world of avatorials. You should hire him. And so that's how we first got introduced.

And I don't know if you remember this or not, but you made me a video. It was like an hour long video explaining why I should never use an avatarial for my business. I was like, you just sold me to not use his services. This guy's great. And then we've been working together since then.

So it's crazy. I always say like, you hired me by me saying no. Like the power of no is actually pretty, it can be pretty powerful. No I was, I was overworked at the time. I was stuck in an American Inn hotel because our RV was getting worked on. We were living in an RV at the time. We were living in an RV at the time and we got in contact and I was, I was overworked. I was doing four different projects. I was partner on this gummy brand that ended up falling apart.

And then you, yeah, I got content. And then I was looking at it, and I was like, but it's already converting. Why do you need an editorial? So I did. I did this whole big, long, it was like a 40-minute-plus video. And I just talked you out of not hiring me. And then that was the key that gets you to, and then I couldn't keep you off of me.

You kept hitting me up for things. So yeah. Anyway, he's an amazing copywriter. So he's in office this week. We're writing copy. We're actually doing it on Friday. Me, him and Sean Vossler are doing an event. We're going to be going through Napoleon Hill's Truthful Advertising and geeking out for advertising

for a full day. But he's in office today writing copy with us. So I thought, record a podcast episode. I don't talk a lot about copy and copywriting and things like that. So I asked him if he'd come in and reluctantly, reluctantly he said yes. Do you want to tell people some of your background, how you got into the writing world? Yeah. I've been a writer for a long, long time.

I knew I wanted to be involved in film, and my background's always been in comedy, and I love film, comedy, comedians, and writers. And so I always, I looked up to certain people that I've always admired. One of my heroes has always been Steve Martin and like Mel Brooks. And so I always, I looked at their trajectory

and what did they do? Same with Conan O'Brien. And I saw a lot of them, you know, they'd go off to college, they'd go get a, they would go into the literary field, the writing field. And I was like, okay, well, I'm gonna go in that field, that area. So I just, just was pushing myself that way.

So when I went into college, I didn't have great grades in high school, but then I really busted my butt in college to get perfect grades. I wanted to get perfect grades because I knew I wanted to be a grades in high school, but then I really busted my butt in college to get perfect grades. I wanted to get perfect grades because I knew I wanted to be a writer in some capacity. I knew I wanted to create stories. So I went and I have a bachelor's in English,

a creative writing, and then I went back and did my master's in fiction. And I just told myself, I'm going to get a career in writing somehow. I'm going to, I don't know what that's gonna look like. I needed to get a career in writing somehow. I don't know what that's going to look like. I needed to make a living in writing. I didn't want to be a financial advisor, what my dad was. He was always trying to push me to be a financial advisor.

The one thing I do appreciate with my dad is he always told me to be my own boss. So he was, I was raised, he's been an entrepreneur my whole life and he always told me, be your own boss. I always thought being your own boss meant to be a financial advisor. I was like, no, this is the worst. I could not do it. I couldn't do numbers, I couldn't deal with finance. It was so confusing to me.

So that's, I got into, I was just at the time after, it was after my bachelor's when I was like, okay, I'm gonna get a job and write. I didn't know what that would look like. Did you know about copywriting at that time? I didn't know about copywriting at that time. No, no. It was, yeah, 2012, and I was just like,

I just be able to use words to make a living, because at the time, my whole goal was I have a family to support, my wife and daughter, and so I was looking around, and that's when I stumbled. This was when I was in Arizona, where I'm from, and I found an e-comm company. There's a lot of e-comm out in Scottsdale, Arizona. It was an e-comm company for health supplements, but it was a whole range of health supplements, all sorts of different supplements. They liked me because I have an improv background and they liked that I can jump into different voices and different characters and different perspectives and angles because I've been

doing that now for over 15 plus years. They hired me and that was my first intro into copywriting and I got thrown into the fire of... I mean, I was writing... Every day was kind of different. I'd be writing baby formula supplements to bodybuilding supplements the next day. Easily the unhealthiest one in the office. I was not taking care of my body and I was click clacking away, telling other people about how their metabolism works.

To put it in frame, how tall are you? I'm five seven. So five seven and right now you're like what? I'm 167. 160, how much did you weigh at the time that you're writing the weight loss ads? Boy, I ballooned up to 260. So I was a I was a meatball boy. I was a hefty boy. Did writing the copy for those things like was that part of that transformed you like getting shredded and losing weight all kind of stuff? No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Halfway through the research like oh my gosh. You know, it's so funny The reason why I wanted to lose a lot of weight or lose weight is because I was getting tired while reading. I was just getting so fed up. I was trying to get through. Because once I got into grad school, it was really busy. We were reading like a novel a week and I had to do a lot of reading quickly

and understand it and analyze. And I was getting really sleepy. And that was my motivating factor was to, so I can read more, how nerdy is that? So I just wanted to get shredded for books. And that's, yeah, so that's really why I did, yeah. And then now I'm, yeah, healthiest I've ever been, so. That's awesome.

Very cool, so I wanna talk, I mean, obviously we could go for days talking about copywriting and different things, but I wanna bring some unique stuff, because I don't think a lot of our audience knows about some of the things I want to ask you about. In my world, everyone knows about funnels, they know about landing pages, upsells, downsells, because that's what we spend so much time on. Maybe we'll come back to that. What I originally tried to hire you for was a different type of creative and something

that I think was really big back in the day. You'd see magazines and they'd have these advertorials, right? They would push somebody to go buy something online or to call a phone number or whatever. But then people started using them almost like pre-funnel. Like before the funnel starts, there's this page, this advertorial page.

Will you explain kind of what an advertorial is? Like how you kind of got into them? I want people to understand what that is so they can see how this might potentially fit into their business model, and then we talk about specifics on avatorials after that. Yeah, avatorials, and they've been used for, when I got into it,

and then once I did my research and got more into it, I didn't realize, they have been used for a very, very long time. And it's a sneaky way of, the reason why it's called avatorial is because it's an ad, very long time. And it's a sneaky way of, the reason why it's called an editorial is because it's an ad, but an editorial. So it's made to look like an editorial piece, like it's, like you would read in the newspaper.

It just looks, it blends in with the newspaper. It looks as though it's just another article written. And the way it reads also is like a, very much like an article. And then it pushes you into a call to action to buy a book, to put information to get a free... There are old ones where you can get free cassettes, test out these cassettes, check out these records, free recipe book.

You can still see them. I mean, there's so many of them today even if you go to like the checkout line at the grocery store, you pick up like a Women's World magazine and that is filled with abatorials in there. They'll tell an amazing story of a transformation of someone losing weight and then it would go into a call to action to get this recipe book of what they've used. So I got into it, yeah let's see, it was through, his name is James Van Ellswek, he became an early mentor for me in the native space. So James did a lot of, and continues to do a

lot of work in the native space through Taboola Outbrain. On native advertising. On native advertising, yeah. So when you go to any of the websites, any of the news sites and you see the ads at the bottom and you click on it and it, often times it will take you to an article, an ad, but it's made to look like an article as if you're still on that site or you're still involved in that world and it's read as if like an editorial piece but it's an editorial. So it's like a pre-sell, it's a pre-sell to sales page.

So it's a way for people to get information. It's used for cold audiences, really, really cold audiences, and it's a way to first understand the problem and then get them interested and then get them over to the sales page. Mike, you said it's interesting because most, the sites I see those ads on typically they are like the news sites and you scroll down and they look like they're almost like just articles on the news site, but there's usually things like Taboola right above it or something. And usually they're crazy pictures, always like a crazy picture of like some, some person like peeling their skin like eight

inches away from their face or some weird like banana that's green or purple or like weird things that catch your attention. And you're like, what is this thing? And you click on it, takes you to what looks like an article on that site. And then at the end of the article, usually, and it's not the structure in a way where it's kind of salesy, but not feels more like like an article but then it pushes you to the part where something's gonna buy, right? Yeah.

So that's kind of, the visual for you guys if you're trying to imagine what it looks like, it's something that's happening, it's between the new site, advertorial page, and then from there we go to your funnel. Yep. And there's all sorts of different types of advertorials too.

And also a level of aggressiveness, of like how aggressive the abatorial might be depending on what site you're on. So like you talk about those thumbnails, those different images, they can be really, you know, really kind of a strange fruit that they're holding and it talks about like some sort of weight loss supplement and it'll mention like, you know, unbelievable fruit burns three pounds overnight. And so you click on it.

Oftentimes, you'll go to what's called a jump page. That's also an abatorial. A jump page is just a very short one. And it's a page between the website you were just on and a VSL, a video sales letter, which is a long form video that sells you, of course, the product. So that jump page is used for compliance reasons,

but also as kind of like a tease. It gets you to want to click over to that video to watch the video and that jump page will be maybe two, three paragraphs. It's very short and then I'll just have a button that says watch now. So that's another that's another type and then you'll have other types that are more longer. They can, it all varies of how they look, depending on e-comm or an info product, finance, it all depends on the industry. Interesting. Now I saw, this is way back in the day,

so it's been a while, but it was actually pre-click phones, we were building on our Neurocell, NeuroPain offer back then, and we're looking at all the avatorials, that's where a lot of that traffic was coming from, and I saw a lot of companies like the Acai Berry and weight loss companies who in the avatorial they'd have two products where they're like,

hey, step one you need to get the Acai Berries and step number two you gotta get the whatever, whatever wrap or it was pushed into two different funnels. I remember talking with the media buyers and you're saying that like for every one cell you get on number one you get like half a cell on number two or something so it increases their cart value by having, did you see many of those

or do people kind of, I kind of seen them for a long time. So I was wondering if it stopped working or? Yeah, I'm not sure about that. I can't even recall. I'd have to like look at that, but I don't remember that. Yeah. Like you think like step one, go buy the.com secrets books.

You understand the funnel. Step one, step two, get your free ClickFunnels account. You know, like. And it would be on one page? Yeah, it was on, it was in the article. Yeah, it was in the page basically. Like here's the step-by-step process. Go get, because it was, it was like, this is a system.

So you need like the acai berries are the supplement, and this was like a wrap, and it was almost like, you know, or face cream, like this face cream's the best step one, this was step two. Anyway, so I just. Interesting, we'll still use steps. I still use steps in an avatorial, and then I, because I've taught a lot of people

how to do avatorials, and so at the end of the avatorial, a lot of times they're like, what to do now and I'll I'll I still do it I'll say step one go here and then step two I'll a lot of the times I'll just some sort of urgency step two make sure to order more Order make sure to order at least three because this is selling out. It's selling out fast and everything or we'll also do the reverse kind of like urgency where it's like Limit five per household. So it's almost kind of like urgency where it's like limit five per household. So it's almost kind of like it's already selling out so fast, we can only limit.

And so a lot of times I'll still do the step one, step two, and then step three. And then on the step three click here now, but it's just an, it's, it's kind of like in a, a nice sneaky way of each one as a CTA to the same thing. It's the same thing. It's just reinforcing the core call to action. Interesting. Do you ever get one of those ads that makes you go, why am I even seeing this? Not long ago, I kept getting served ads for these super fancy chef-grade pots and pans like premium artisan cookware. And I'm sitting here thinking, you guys,

I barely even know how to boil water properly. I'm more of a protein bar and a podcast guy. Now I'm not knocking the product, it just wasn't meant for me. And the real problem is that the company probably paid good money to show me that ad and that's why I always tell marketers that relevance is everything. And that's where LinkedIn ads comes in. This isn't your average ad platform. It's a network of over a billion professionals and targeting options are insane. You can target the exact buyers by job title, industry, company size, role,

seniority, even skills and company revenue. That means your message gets in front of the right people, not someone who thinks that instant ramen is gourmet dining. Now, if you're serious about B2B marketing and not just throwing spaghetti at the wall, hoping it'll stick, then you've got to be on LinkedIn. And here's the best part. LinkedIn will give you a hundred dollar credit on your next campaign so you can see it in action. Just go to linkedin.com slash clicks. That's linkedin.com slash CLICKS. Terms and conditions apply only on LinkedIn ads. If you've been following me for any amount of time, you know, I always talk about as you're growing and scaling your company,

the most important thing is finding the who, not the how. Who is the person that can help you drive more traffic? Who is the person that could be your CEO? Who is the person that could build your funnels? Understanding the who will dramatically speed up the growing and the scaling of your company. Now, the best place to find the who's who can help you with your vision is Indeed. When it comes to hiring the right who's, Indeed is all you need. Indeed gives you the ability to stop struggling to get your job post seen on other sites because Indeed's got a sponsored job listing where you can stand out in front of your dream hires. With these sponsored jobs, your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates.

That means your funnel builder is going to see it. That means the person driving traffic your funnels is going to see it. It means your new CEO or CMO or whatever you're looking for is going to see the exact ad for your business as soon as they open up Indeed. And that makes a huge difference. In fact, according to Indeed, data sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed have 45% more applications than non-sponsored jobs. One of the things I love about Indeed is it makes hiring so fast.

You can post the job and within minutes you're getting applications who are coming in looking to become the who inside of your business. Prior to that, I was often posting my help wanted ads on Facebook and Instagram and then getting tons and tons of responses from unqualified people who had no idea what they were doing. Whereas Indeed, again, they're only being seen by the exact person I'm looking to hire. Now with Indeed Sponsored Jobs, there's no monthly subscriptions, there's no long-term contracts. You only pay for results.

You may be wondering how fast is Indeed? Well, in the minute I've been talking to you so far, 23 hires were made on Indeed across the Indeed network. So there's no longer need to wait any longer. You can speed up your hiring right now by going to Indeed. And listeners of the show get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your job more visible by going to Indeed. And listeners of the show get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your job more visible by going to indeed.com slash clicks.

Just go to indeed.com slash C-L-I-C-K-S right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash clicks. Terms and conditions apply. Are you hiring? Indeed is all you need. So, okay, what are other elements

that typically you would have in an advertorial? It's not like a sales letter, it's like headline, story, like it's different, right? The structure? It is. There's so many different types. I always, when I was doing them pretty hardcore and pretty consistently every week, I would started doing, we would always test above the fold. So I'd always give three, the main body would always be the same. So what I would always test above the fold. So I'd always give three, the main body would always be the same. So what I would always do is I would do three headlines and three top images and then three leads. And out of those three, we can get a good winner. And then the main body of the avatoyl would be the same because it's always above the fold you want to test the most because

that's where people are landing. That's where people are bouncing. So we wanted to see, we would always, and then we would do variations. So we'd always, yeah, always, always three different headlines, three different images, and then three different leads to go in. So a lead might be, I'd always do a story lead, something that evokes that emotion, whatever that emotion may be, depending on the product.

So if it's a survival product, there's a different emotion there for a survival product compared to a weight loss supplement, different kind of emotion. And then also the point of view of who's it coming from. And then for instance, for a gadget, for a gadget avatorial, a lot of times people love the underdogs.

So it's like this small, this startup company is disrupting the billion dollar watch industry. People love that. Those kind of leads always did really, really well. So that would be a different lead that I would use in there. And then taking a look at the headlines, I obviously do a lot of funnel hacking. So I have a massive, avatorial swipe folder that I keep and I keep adding to it. So I'll save and I'll show different examples from, from all the different

industries of what they're doing for their headlines. So I always jump in there and take a look. And not only that, but I'll also go to, I look at old advertorials as well. So, uh, my little thing I've always mentioned this is if you look at old magazines, I'll go to antique shops and find old magazines, you can find old playboys. I did that. I have a whole stack of really, really old Playboys of like 70s and 80s.

For the articles. For the ads. It really is for the ads, what's so funny. And I, no one believes me, but I'm trying to say it like it really is, to be honest, because they're pretty astounding, they're amazing, the artwork and everything is so cool. They're really fun to look at. And so you can look at what they did, and you can see how what still stands the test of time of what still works today when it comes to a headline and a lead and so on so he was nerdy last night I bought 15 ads on eBay from LaSalle University

because LaSalle extension universities where Napoleon Hill used to work for anyway I started finding their ads and like their long-form ads from being like because LaSalle Extension University is where Napoleon Hill used to work for, anyway, but I started finding their ads and like, their long form ads, like them, like you could do an extension school to become a lawyer or become a business operator, all these different ones, but I'll just show them to you, but like, like 15, each one's about 10 bucks,

but it's the long form advertorial, all selling LaSalle University with different hooks they had, and they were beautiful, all made like, rock solid headlines, really cool imagery, cool cool call to action like they were just anyway So this is what he and I do in our nerd time is we just buy old magazines and ads Just look at him. I think what's funny is I when I talked to my other copywriting friends and other people in the marketing People don't also I'm like, you know, Russell's probably one of the nerdiest I'm just a copywriting people don't that's they'm like, you know, Russell's probably one of the nerdiest when it comes to copywriting.

People don't, they think he was a funnel guy, but I'm like, I've seen Russell's collection. He has some rare stuff that I'm like, holy smokes, you have, you know, just, I couldn't believe some of the things that I've poked around back here, what your collection, and so people forget, like you have your own copywriting chops too. You just don't wanna do it all the time,

that's why you have me. It's like, you're excellent have your own copywriting jobs too. You just don't want to do it all the time. That's why you have me. It's like, it's like you're, you're actually in your own, right? And it's funny. Cause like when I, when I got in this business, um, I was learning all the pieces and copywriting was the one I was like, I don't want to do that. Like that was the worst, but there's also the most expensive. I remember like the first time I tried to hire a copywriter, um, it was Michael Ford and then he wanted 15 grand.

I was like, what? I'm like, and that freaked me out. And then the first time I hired someone was Johan Mock. I paid him eight grand and we never launched a product, but it was like 8,000, it was like all money I had. And then finally I was like, I can't afford copyright, so I have to learn this. I like, I forced me to learn the skill set,

but it's funny because for me it's like copywriting. It isn't just the words on the page. I copywritten everything. Eventually when you get better and better copywriting, like the perfect webinar is just me copywriting. Eventually when you get better and better copywriting, the perfect webinar is just me copywriting. It's literally, it's a cell structure in place that I do off the top of my head,

but I know the structure so well. Emails are copywriting, Facebook Live, podcasts. Every time you're speaking, as you get better, you start weaving copywriting into it. And so yeah, I've become a good copywriter because I had to, but also now it becomes second nature where you're always persuading somebody to do something, right? Right now you guys are listening and we're entertaining you but we're also trying to

persuade you to listen to the next thing and hopefully go check out sellingonline.com because you're going to learn how to sell more and whatever the next thing is, right? But that's why this is such an important skill to master. I think it's one of the tragedies that a lot of people have is now they're leveraging AI for copywriting which I don't think necessarily bad, but by doing that, they're missing learning the skill set, which is the most, I think of all the skills that I've learned in the business world, it's the most important, the most, it is the most expensive to hire out because it's the most valuable, but like they may get a good sell, you know, VSL done on chat, GBT that

works, but then they're going gonna go on a podcast or a Facebook live or whatever trying to promote the thing and they don't have any of the chops of how to do persuasion and copyrighting because they had chat GBT write a version for me. You know what I mean? Absolutely. I like that you brought that up. There's so many things that you touched on that I want to mention. I think what we lack in the AI, don't get me wrong, I know a handful of these copywriting

guys that I respect and are friends with and they're doing masterful things with AI for sure I don't have interest in that because I also I think what people Copywriters what they're if they're just using AI Just for just for the copyright and you're missing out on their lived in the experience It's that lived experience because I think when I think of copywriting, when you talk about persuading, it's getting to know people, it's getting to know their background,

getting to know who they are. So you can actually, you're just channeling their desire onto your offer of whatever it is. And so when you're writing, you're able to tap into your unconscious just by writing, even though you have a structure of what to do for the copywriting, but you also have your own unique lived in experience

that you can't just outsource that to an AI and try to dump your own childhood and everything and who you are, your own story into AI for it then to conjure up. Because there's been a lot of times, even with you, we go back and forth, and then you have, that's why I always say I need a Russell rant,

because when I'm doing a new sales letter, whatever it is that we're doing, I always have you, wherever you're at in the world, send me over a Vox. Because I don't know where your brain is at. I know that your lived and experienced can all of a sudden, you had an experience that day that I didn't know about, but because of that experience, then there's that hook.

There's the hook, the lead, the short story, all the pieces. Yeah, and then that's why I say, okay, where's your brain at? And so we've done this for so many of our products, for so many of the offers with Dan Kennedy and our own products. And so sure enough, I'll get a Russell Rand, a good three minute Russell Rand.

And it helps me tremendously, because then I go, great. And then it also will trigger something. I'm like, you know what, that's awesome. That connection, I just now made a connection from what you said to what I just experienced at the gym or something like that, that made me realize this can be a really good hook, this really good angle. And so I, yeah, I think AI, obviously it's there, it's here, and we're trying to figure out

what's how to best utilize it that works for us. But I, I also don't want it to take away the thing that I love. The thing that I know is Heath. That's what I am. I'm a writer. This is what I do. And so for it to outsource it, you still need to be artistically satisfied and fulfilled or just fulfilled in what you're doing rather than, because then it just, how is it fun to just pull levers?

That's what it comes down to with an AI. If I just get these cool prompts, it's just me pulling a lever, just putting in the That's what it comes down to with an AI. If I just get these cool prompts, it's just me pulling a lever, just putting in the right prompts for it. And it just, yeah, it just doesn't. You're a purist like me, I understand. Yeah. But I mean, I still utilize it for sure.

There's been a time where, you know, how do they, I'll ask it questions and help me. I'll honestly, it's the fastest when it comes to citing sources, when I'm just like, take this, take this, and now put in an MLA format and give me, honestly it's the fastest when it comes to citing sources, when I'm just like, take this, take this, and now put it in an MLA format and give me a science source and things like that, or help me with research, or also it'll help me with a springboard.

I'm like, just give me 10 ideas based around this, just to kind of get my brain moving, rather than just to have, I don't have it right for me, none or no, or any of that, but it's more of a idea generator. For sure, that's like, I've been, I've never was big AI until just the last, man, like two weeks I've been playing with a lot and how do I say, like we were talking about idea generation, so like for me, I have a million swipe files on a thing like book funnels or

webinar funnels or whatever, right? So what I've been doing, actually I started running a report off to get you a copy of it, but I have links to like to every Agora front end I could find that are free plus shipping books or things like that, right? So I was like, look at all these book funnels that Agora's publishing and then tell me, analyze them, come back and tell me what's the same about them,

what's different, what are you noticing, what are the headlines, what are the, and then it'll come back and it'll give you all that data where it's like, okay, they're using one of six different headline structures. Like, oh, cool, we should split test all six of those. Oh, all these led with a story about this, or three were this, three were that.

But it gives you all the analytics, and then at least for me, it gives me an idea of what I could write or what I should be able to write about things like that. Which makes it more fun. 100%, because I also, obviously I'm a purist when it comes to the writing, I'm bringing it unconscious, but I also know what marketing takes,

and we all love data. We're always going off data. We always want to know, we don't want to reinvent the wheel. We want to know what's working. That's why we funnel hack. And that's why, you know, this, if this has worked, then let's continue to have it work and then we work upon that and make the variations and all the split tests from there. But absolutely. Yeah. So we're talking about the first project we did together, cause together because a lot of fun and then we'll probably be in the episode. So the very first project he came in on because he

was doing a bunch of Ecom stuff at the time and I just bought a green drink company called Zuma Juice and it was the first time we had a chance to work together. And so anyway, it was it's probably the most fun I've had like, because usually I either write copy of my own or I outsource parts and copyrights and it's always been anyway, there's been, you know, good times and bad times with that but it was the first time It was probably the most fun I've had. Because usually I either write a copy of my own or I outsource parts to copyrighters. Anyway, there's been good times and bad times with that. But it was the first time just working with you

on a project and our styles were very similar, which I loved. So the first thing we did, if you remember this, we stepped up a Trello board. And the first thing was like, let's go funnel hack every single thing we can find around this. So we found every green drink product we could find and then went and bought everyone, took screenshots of

here's the first page, second upsell, down every single green drink product we could find and then went and bought everyone, took screenshots of here's the first page, second, upsell, down, every single green drink. And then we found other e-comm products that were similar, other supplements, things like that. We funnel hacked those and so we built a Trello board with, I don't even know, probably 30, 40 different funnels we had funnel hacked, along with like emails and ads and things like that.

And then we had bought the brand from somebody else. You remember, we bought from Luke Jaden and we got a call with him and it was fun watching you because the questions you were asking were so interesting because I've only written a copy for myself. I've never done it for other people so I always have a lens I'm just writing to the people I know how to write for where you were coming into a whole different world and it was fascinating watching you. I don't know if you remember this, but you interviewed Luke for like an hour on the tone of the brand.

Do you remember this? Like how do you talk, all that kind of stuff. And I want to go a little deeper there, because number one, first off step, step number one, guys, everyone final hack, was step number two, like, we were doing the final hacking, it's not just then copying, it's what most people do.

Like what Heath did next that was interesting was like figuring out the voice, not the voice, the tone of the brand. How does it communicate? How does it do stuff like that? Which I never thought of. I'd love for you to talk about just your thought on that part of it. Oh yeah, I'm a big believer of getting closest

to the person who is creating the product, that understands the product, that knows it in and out, and has been working with it. So obviously Luke, and then I also did this, I worked closely also with Trey Llewellyn, who, you know, friends, and Ecom, and so I would get on the, when I would work with Trey, I would also call up his customers.

I would, you know, talk to a few customers and why they buy so many of this, and actually get to know them, understand why they're buying it for. And so I always, I'm a big, that's part of the copywriting is the sales is just talking to people. And the biggest thing is I just ask questions and then I sit back and listen. So I just was just listening to what, how Luke and he was, you know, had so much passion

behind it. He loved, he, I mean, he loved this drink that he created. And so I wanted to know, yeah, how did he approach it? Because he was, and the tone was a really important thing because that is, I mean, that's part of the whole branding is how to stand on the marketplace with that specific tone. And so when it comes to the tone and also who you're going for and how that tone is touching that person,

because when it comes to different groups of people, how you talk to them and how that tone is touching that person because when it comes to different groups of people, how you talk to them and how you're not going to talk to busy moms and say, well, you're going to talk to a bunch of masculine, hardcore guys. There's a different way to approach the brand. My biggest thing is I would just ask Luke questions and then he would talk about it and I go, tell me more about that. And I would just, and then let him, and I just listen and I take notes because a big thing is just copy.

I always say, it comes from Kim, I'm going to ruin her name. I'm so sorry, Kim, Kim Schwamm. She's an amazing A-list copywriter, been around for a long, long time and she, I love the phrase she used, copy collecting. And I really think about that. I don't think it's copywriting. I think it's copy collecting. So I'm just collecting the things that Luke is telling me. I'm like, oh, and I just make notes. And so there was a lot of fun tone. What I got from the Greens Juice at the time, the Zuma Juice, it was a lot of fun. This was a Greens Juice that was really, really

fun because at the time it was like hardcore, like the greens and you know it's for your health and everything was so just organic and everything so based for your health it felt very just not a fun way approaching it. And so Luke wanted to do this like you know the greens drinks that kicks your butt and it's really he used fun language around it about you know giving you a kick butt energy and he liked the fun part of it so like and that also went to show because in the video he first created was really really fun it had that early Harmon Brothers feel that he really liked and so there was obviously he wanted to approach a bigger market to show that greens drink doesn't have to be an expensive, just really high priced and health food that is only for a very specific audience that only goes to whole foods.

He wanted to make it be like, no, this is actually for everyone and it's good for you and it's so easy. He wanted that angle of it like you can put in your greens very easily. So that was, yeah, my biggest secret is just asking more questions. I just interview the person and I just write down notes and then they kind of write the copy for me to be honest. It's funny, I remember Kailin Pollan asked her one day, when she ran Lady Boss, she was writing all the copy and stuff and she said, I stoppedin Poland. I asked her one day, because when she ran Lady Boss, she was writing all the copy and stuff. And she said, I stopped writing copies.

When I started, I go to my community and Facebook, and I ask questions. I would just listen to the ladies respond. I'd literally use their phrases, like the things they would say to respond to my messages. Like, that was the copy. They said it the way that it sounded to them. And so I just copied that and sent it back.

And so in our company, you get a chance to write for me, sometimes for Dan Kennedy, sometimes for Barnum P.T. You're going to learn a whole bunch of different schizophrenia ever switching from voice to voice. It's a little different. When I go from you to Dan Kennedy I cut out all exclamation points. All exclamation points and then I structure it. Big blocky blocks. Big blocky blocks because he, older kind of traditional style writing, almost like journal kind of like style.

A little different compared to how direct response marketing and copywriting has changed over the years. And so, and with yours, yeah. And then with Barnum P.T. I get to play with voice, of course, and then different ones. But I got used to that. Again, that's like the improv background and what I first started with the e-comp. I one day I remember I remember I had to write this whole line of was it baby? It was like baby products, like different soft. It was like lotions and different products for like a newborn up to like two years. And then after that was done, like the next thing was no kidding.

There was this brand at the time called Enraged. It was Enraged Nutrition. And it had the most aggressive, scary names that you would... I don't think you can let fly today. They're the most aggressive names. So I had to then change the tone and go from like just hardcore, put on a different... It's like putting on a different alter ego, a different persona while you write. So awesome. Yeah. Oh man.

All right, last question for you and we'll wrap the podcast for today. And thank you for doing this, it's a lot of fun. For someone out there, because a lot of people in our world are trying to learn this business game and there's so many pieces, right? There's copyright, there's funnel building, there's traffic, there's so many different things. Initially, like the best way to make money at first, I think, is learning one skill set,

and then you go in and do that as a service for the people. And I think if someone wants to learn copywriting, it's a, obviously there's work to learn it, but it's also one of the most valuable skills. You pay good copywriters a lot of money. For somebody who's just in that spot where they're not sure what they're in it, but they're thinking, maybe I should become a copywriter.

What's the path, or how does it look to go and actually start learning and getting a client? What's that first beginning part look like? I would highly recommend, there's a couple ways to do it. I would recommend getting with a company, it's gonna start off just learning, getting an in-house position with an e-com company and then starting off small perhaps,

just starting with Facebook ads. Just getting with a company that you know you can work hard and they see that you're hungry and they want to get after it because then from there you're going to be able to learn the skills while also on their time. Be able to they're helping you, they're training you while also getting up to speed with what you want to do. I did, you know, that's kind of how I got started. They wanted me because I had a degree in writing.

They knew I could write. I could write a sentence. I could be able to write a structured argument and everything. So they were like, okay, great, now we can use that and then this is how we actually do things to make sure it sells. I would do that. And then from there, if you want to start making more money and getting your and building your name. I was on Upwork at the time. I never was on Fiverr but I was on Upwork man and I took every position I could

get and then I started posting in groups and so different groups on Facebook about services and that's how I got connected with a lot of people that was really surprised. And also, when you're doing these posts, being yourself. Don't try to be another copywriter of how they structure things. Really understand who you are and your personality. If you're funny, if you have a certain style about you, use that in your copywriting because that really makes you stand out with your personality. And business owners love that.

They want to see that. So I would say, yeah then just you're gonna be putting in some grinding but if you're enjoying it then it's it's fun. I mean back in the day this is crazy. I don't know if I ever told you this. When I was like I was just wanting to get out of a certain position and wanting to make it out of my own so when ClickFunnels was first it was new. It's fairly new and make it out of my own. So when ClickFunnels was first, it was new, it's fairly new. And I remember one of my, the media buyer I was with at the time, I was working with this company and I was doing, it was when Probiotics was the rage and I wrote this massive

VSL and it was, I got to really get nitty gritty and we printed off all the transcripts from all the Gundry VSLs and everything. And then he was showing me, he's like, look at this new thing and he showed me ClickFunnels. gritty and we printed off all the transcripts from all the Gundry VSLs and everything and then he was showing me, he's like, look at this new thing and he showed me ClickFunnels. He was like showing me a site that he built and I saw a member of the buttons all wiggling and everything. I was like, what is all this?

And then sure enough down the line I eventually was able to work with someone who had a ClickFunnels account and I would log into their account and I would be in my closet. I had a little desk set up in my closet. I'd be up until two in the morning and I would build a funnel account and I would be in my closet. I had a little desk set up in my closet. I'd be up till two in the morning and I would build a funnel just to see it, to structure it and drop things in, make a headline. I was like, oh, this is really easy. And then I would delete it

because I didn't want him to find out that I was building funnels in this thing. And I was like, I don't want him to find out. So I'd build a whole funnel and be like, oh, this is really easy. I could do this. And then I delete it. So I got really, so I would just find any opportunity.

I mean, I was doing descriptions for Yamakas on Upwork at one point. I was taking any job I can get and just to stack up and just to, you know, a lot of times in the early days, you're just wanting to feel more confident that you can do this, that you can be, get after it. And you're gonna make a lot of mistakes and you're gonna get clients that want to

take advantage of you and you're gonna have to figure things out and it's rough. But it doesn't, I think if I were to do it again, I would definitely get with an in-house, get with someone in-house where you can know how to, some sort of, you're good at writing in some sort of capacity and then they wanna, and then you're hungry,

cause a lot of times, I mean, business just wants someone that's hungry, that stay with them and really know how they work and then build from there. Yeah. Yeah, that's cool. And if you're an entrepreneur who can't afford a copywriter yet, then the process is kind of similar. You're not doing work for other people,

but you gotta write a lot for yourself. I got a spot where I was writing emails every day and I was writing sales there and I just kept writing and writing. And for me, I wasn't good at writing, so what I would do is I would just, I'm very much a modeler, so I'd look at like, whoever, like if I was launching,

I remember launching my first software product, went to Arm and More Inside, and he was launching something similar. So I was funnel hacking, what did he do? Okay, he had a headline around my head, and he had an intro story, I had an intro story. He had it, and I just like followed the structure. I started doing VSLs,

and I would get the VSLs transcribed, and then I would look at the whole thing, and I would try to break out, okay, the first three lines, like this was a hook. Okay, boom, there's a, I need a hook. And the next five lines, they were leading with a story. And then I just kind of like started, in fact, if you look at the.com secrets book,

when I wrote that, all the scripts I showed there literally came from me funnel hacking a dozen people with that same thing and then looking at the similarities amongst all of them and then making my own videos based on that that would work. And like, oh, there's the formula. Like, I reverse engineered the formula from other people doing it, I didn't make it up.

Just I kept seeing it over and over and over again, and so it's like, okay, I know the things I need to fill in to make a good VSL, or to make a good webinar, or make a good whatever the thing is you're trying to create. I did that with email. So when I've really cut my teeth in the direct response, when I started going out on my own, was with email. So I got really good at email,

and I was on Ben Settle's list, and I bought it I started buying slowly or got on his list and then I've been following him for years and years. So then I would start to get on everyone's list just to get their emails and then I'd save them in different folders so I'd see what they're doing in email wise. So then I started slowly buying what you can afford. I was like, okay. And then I started buying. So I learned a lot also from Ben Settle was a lot of the early early stuff I started buying and then really soaking it in and then I was like oh I can do this I can do this and yeah sure enough once you started seeing the pattern that's when yeah yeah the pattern basically the framework the frame add your art on top of it and your

personality in your anyway so Heath that was fun man I appreciate you coming in hanging out the office this weekend and jumping on the podcast. Any of you guys are aspiring copywriters, wanna learn copy, you got some great stuff from Heath today. Avatorials, oh, one last question, avatorials. If someone wants to run an avatorial, they need to go to Taboola or is there other platforms? What, do you even know anything?

Oh yeah, there's a lot. I mean, Taboola and Outbrain, it's been a bit since I've liked the actual inside of it when it comes to this part, but Tab and outbrain you look at you know Those are those are the top ones because they're on the best kind of publications you're gonna get the better quality traffic And then there's other ones That that would run more because also it depends on what your offer you're running So serve say for instance like CBD gummies and stuff things were they a little iffy that maybe were a little bit more difficult for different publishers but I mean

there's so many so to blue an outbrainer yeah I mean there's so many people also to follow for when it comes to native yeah I said I have a Toro's right I'm gonna step back and not do an advertorial if you've got a niche specific business right it's more for mass market because you're targeting like new sites where it's all the people not like you know the native is definitely takes it from it takes takes more of a skill. There's definitely, you're going to get a lot less clicks. The percentages are completely different compared to what you're used on meta with Instagram

and Facebook. So, you know, to start with Facebook and Instagram, much, much better because then you can, that one, they just like, you like, it's all about creative and you just turn on the switch and they just keep pumping it with creative into the algorithm, finds its way. When it comes to native, yeah, that's, you're, yeah, different type but it's absolutely worth it.

But also with the advertorials, that doesn't mean you just have to go for native. Advertorials are absolutely being used on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, wherever it is, Google. I see them all the time. Because it's a great opportunity to bring in those cold traffic, give them an information and then send them on.

And so it also, it helps you too, to whittle down your what's working. So a lot of times we'll do like split tests, multiple different advertorials, and then we see, okay, which one is actually getting the more clicks, then drop the other ones and focus on that one and then do split.

So it's also a way to find what the market is actually really, really interested in. Yeah. What they're, yeah. Very cool. Awesome, thank you Heath, appreciate it. Hope you guys enjoyed this episode. First time talking about copyrighting in a long, long time

and I hope you guys got some ideas and some cool ways to get your copy game up. So appreciate you and we'll see you guys all on the next episode of the Russell Brunson Show. Hey, this is Russell. I had a really cool offer for you right now. Shortly after we launched ClickFunnels, I remember asking some of our top

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