Master: the allegations against Neil Gaiman - The WhatsApps | Ep 2

Episode Date: July 8, 2024

The former nanny who alleges Neil Gaiman sexually assaulted her shares her WhatsApp messages with him. The messages appear friendly and affectionate. He says they’re evidence that she consented to sex with him. But is there another way of reading them?Reporter: Paul Caruana Galizia and Rachel JohnsonProducer: Katie GunningAdditional reporting: Jess SwinburneOriginal music and sound design: Tom KinsellaSeries editor: Matt RussellEditor: Jasper CorbettTo find out more about Tortoise:Download the Tortoise app - for a listening experience curated by our journalistsSubscribe to Tortoise+ on Apple Podcasts for early access and ad-free contentBecome a member and get access to all of Tortoise's premium audio offerings and more Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Before we begin, I just need to warn you, this is a hard listen at times. The series contains graphic descriptions of sex and allegations of sexual abuse. And this episode also deals with suicide. Aya, just sending you a message to remind you, it will all be okay. That may be hard to believe right now for you, where you are, but honestly, it will all be okay. Promise.

I miss you so much, as I said in my text. I hope that you're doing all right. Let me know, I worry. These are video clips from WhatsApps. We have the notes that were saved or recorded on Scarlett's phone, photographs, and pages and pages of messages. I thank you for all your help. I'm so grateful.

It means a lot because... The messages span the whole story we told you in episode one, the first alleged assault and the following three weeks of what Scarlett says is rough sex. The relationship ends, but the messages continue back and forth over the course of almost a year. The messages are friendly, often affectionate or supportive, but Scarlett has shared the unedited transcripts with us so we can see exactly what they said to each other and when. And it feels like a very different story, not so black and white, like we're viewing the events through the other end of the telescope.

It really throws me. Because when I read the WhatsApps, I think that Scarlett comes over as besotted. Messages like these appear to be evidence of consent in black and white. And they also appear to show that he could assume consent was there. The two things are separate. And both matter when it comes to the law. As the criminal defence lawyer Catherine Jackson explains,

If you have a complainant who says, I wasn't consenting, but I'm sure he believed that I was, that is a big red flag. Yeah, it's not as straightforward as, I wasn't consenting. Meaning, it's not just about what was going on in Scarlett's mind, but what was going on in Neil Gaiman's mind too. If he had reason to believe that Scarlett was consenting, then there isn't a case of sexual assault. In other words, it wouldn't be fair to give someone an

indication of consent and then claim assault. So, understanding whether someone really dared have reasonable belief in consent is important. Understanding whether there's more than one way of reading Scarlett's messages to Neil Gaiman is important. Neil Gaiman's position is that the natural and ordinary meaning of the WhatsApp messages is that Scarlett was in a consensual sexual relationship with him. I'm Paul Caruana Galizia. And I'm Rachel Johnson. And from Tortoise, this is Master, Episode 2. The WhatsApps. So we ran through your bath. The bath is outside. The WhatsApps are unsettling. Before we get to them, we need to rewind.

What we call a pahutukawa tree. Back to the Friday night when Neil Gaiman runs Scarlett an outdoor bath under the Pohutukawa tree when he joins her in the bath and she says he uses his fingers to anally penetrate her. Neil Gaiman's account is that he offered to run a bath for both of them and after he established consent, cuddled and made out with Scarlett. Remember, she sends a message to her friend the next day saying it had crossed the boundaries. She Googles Neil Gaiman and Me Too, but she also messages Neil Gaiman saying, thank you for a lovely, lovely night. Wow. But it was the following night where the really the just the worst abuse began. Neil Gaiman's position is that he never had full penetrative sex with Scarlett. We understand it's during this weekend that he

discovers this sexual ingenue is in fact into mild BDSM. It's that Saturday that Scarlett alleges he had anal sex with her without a condom and using butter as a lubricant. But we can now see what she says to him the morning after on the Sunday. Do you feel like a rain bath? With a smiley emoji. And the next day, I am consumed by thoughts of you, the things you will do to me. I'm so hungry. What a terrible creature you've turned me into. I think you need to give me a huge spanking very soon. I'm fucking desperate for my master. This is just so hard to make sense of or understand. Scarlett seems eager for more, despite what she now says happened. She is calling him master. On face value, the messages show a woman making her own choices with agency, a woman who chooses to stay. We decide we need an external opinion on what she's saying to Neil Gaiman on the one hand and what she's telling other people and us about what happened on the other.

But to tell this properly we're going to reveal some grim and explicit details. We're talking here about allegations and graphic descriptions of rough and degrading sex. One such allegation takes place two weeks after they first meet, when they are in room 1619 of the Sky City Grand Hotel in Auckland. In Neil Gaiman's account of this scene, Scarlett wasn't meant to stay for long in the hotel room, but that at a certain point they found themselves in bed, fully clothed and cuddling under the sheets. He went into the bathroom, pissed all over his hand,

came back out, put his hand round my face, you know, made me clean him up. Scarlett's recollection of what happened in that small double room with an ensuite bathroom is more graphic oh my god clean him up that became a big thing so he made me vomit multiple times and then i would get i would get punished and have to clean him up or if the anal sex was too painful when i was i was basically screaming he would get really really angry and i would get punished and um have to have to clean him up which would often mean performing you know oral sex on him after anal sex yeah yeah yeah and and i remember trying to navigate this you know and and googling if

these things were um safe you know and and i sort of knew they weren't and i knew that anal sex without condoms was not safe and you know that i was always bleeding Again, in Neil Gaiman's account, they never had full penetrative sex. But what Scarlett tells us sounds extreme, the sort of sex that happens between people who practice BDSM. We've spoken to people in those circles, and they've told us that for BDSM practices, precise words and boundaries should be used and established for each and every act. But then she messages Neil Gaiman

eight days after that night in the hotel room and a day after he leaves for England. It's the 25th of February and Scarlett's in bed with Covid. She writes, I may be ill but I am lying here with my sick little mind wandering into terrible filthy dark places and I want you to, if I'm lucky, occasionally instruct me with naughty things to do so that I can fill all this alone time imagining your cruelty. I'm sorry I'm such a desperate and perverted and kinky sad little girl. What do they say when you play with fire? Texts back from Neil Gaiman are always carefully worded, neutral, light and short.

Scarlet are longer, and there are many more of them. If she ends one to him with, extra punishment needed, goodnight, he'll go, goodnight dear. His messages are affectionate, but non-committal. Neil Gaiman's position is that his replies show that it was Scarlett who continued to initiate sexual contact with him, and that he does little, if anything, to reciprocate. At his most intimate, he will tell her, Dream dark dreams. I'm glad you are there with my unwashed clothes, in my bed that smells

like me. Be safe, and I worry about your Covid. But more often they are prosaic. There should be a lot of frozen vegetarian meals in the tall freezer. Scarlet knows that if taken at face value, these messages tell a story of a consenting relationship between two adults, one which undermines her allegations of sexual assault. And Neil Gaiman's position is that the WhatsApps should be taken at face value. We understand his position is informed by Occam's razor,

a philosophical principle in which the most straightforward explanation is usually the right one. The messages are really hard for me to go through because of, you know, my delusion and like, and just, you know, I'm so furious with myself. She says she can hardly bear to read them because it's now clear in her mind that that was not how it was. So we start to speak to some of the experts in this field for their opinions. How can we reconcile her whatsapps to Neil Gaiman with her account to us of

what happened? What do you do about sexual assaults within a relationship that was consensual? Is there nothing for it but pained regret? What's your project? You're making a film about a case? A podcast. A what? A podcast. Podcast. Ah.

Evan Stark is a sociologist who wrote a book called Coercive Control, How Men Entrap Women in Personal Life. He's acted as an expert witness in high-profile court cases, and his research has influenced laws, not least the coercive control section of England's Serious Crime Act. There is no specific law against coercive control in New Zealand, as there is in England. Neil Gaiman's view of Evan Stark's opinion, which follows,

is that it is flawed, that one can find an expert or an academic to support any viewpoint, and that we have engaged in expert shopping. With Scarlett's permission, we showed Evan Stark WhatsApp messages between her and Neil Gaiman, including ones in which she said she'd consented to sex with him, along with a chronology of her account and an NDA. We'll come to that document later. Many, many of our cases are filled with instances where victims express affection, love and commitment.

Or try to make sense of it. It never happened. It happened, it wasn't paid. I asked for it. That's because that's the nature of the crime. It's a crime of deceit and control. Evan Stark believes physical assault is only the most visible part of domestic abuse. He says that there is usually a wider pattern of exploitation and manipulation that surrounds this abuse. In that sense, it's very much like any con game. And people consent to be conned. That's how it works.

I mean, if I was conning you to buy insurance, and you didn't write down that you believed everything I told you and that you were doing this out of your own free will, I would be not a successful con man. I mean, coercive control is a con. And like any con, people afterwards feel shame and embarrassment of their behaviour and whatever record of it they put down. Neil Gaiman's position is that the idea he coerced and controlled Scarlett by having non-penetrative sex within hours of first meeting her and then over a matter of weeks is far-fetched. The fact that he does it the first day she's in the house

is very symptomatic of the kind of approach that con men take. They're not subtle. First act is often the most extreme act because from that act, everything becomes a litmus test of what is possible and what will come next. That first incident becomes a template for everything that comes later. The morning after the assault in the bath, she says, wow, last night, that was lovely. Kiss. Yeah. So the con man is reframing right from the beginning. You see,

I think you're making too much out of this. It's not that complicated. And the idea that you consent to degradation is such a stupid idea. Only men can think this idea up. Neil Gaiman's position is that tendencies to sexual degradation are not uncommon with women, as shown by the success of the 2011 novel Fifty Shades of Grey, and that such activities between consenting adults are lawful. But context matters too. Many companies now have policies that stop senior employees from even sharing taxis with their juniors, or from socialising with them. This isn't to say that an older or more experienced person can't have a sexual relationship

with a younger one. They often do. The point here is that given the power dynamics, it's hard to establish that consent was freely given, especially if one party is much more junior to the other. It's hard to say no. A month after Neil Gaiman leaves New Zealand, the two versions of Scarlett's story come together. Remember her friend Misma? Scarlett confided in her. Misma and her partner Chris, an academic who specialises in sexual abuse, were outraged.

Misma wrote that scorching WhatsApp message to Amanda Palmer. And after receiving the message, it appears Amanda Palmer gets in touch with Neil Gaiman, who's in Scotland, to tell him that Scarlett is making serious allegations against him. Two weeks pass before Scarlett happens to send a friendly, chatty message to Neil Gaiman. I just wanted to check in and hear about how you are, she says. Neil Gaiman responds quickly quickly 11 minutes later what date are we looking for 24th of march okay got it got it got it 22 hold on there's tons tons there's tons okay look at this so on that day neil messages scarlet and he says honestly when amanda told me that you were telling people i'd raped you and were planning to me to me i wanted to kill myself

but i'm getting through it a day at a time and it's been two weeks now and I'm still here. Fragile, but not great. Scarlett's response to that message from Neil reads, Oh my God, Neil, I never said that. I have been deeply upset about it all because it's triggered things from my past and also for many reasons. I feel whiplashash but I'm horrified by your message me to you rape what this is the first I've heard of this wow I need a moment to digest your message and then um at 11 28 she says okay it's been blown way out of proportion it seems my heart is pounding I'm so sorry you have been so not okay I had no idea I have never used the word rape I am just so shocked I honestly don't know what to say so then he really just a few minutes after that sent her a message saying it was very

unstabilizing i spent a week actively not killing myself if you see what i mean about her me tooing him yes that's right and then she responds a minute later. This is 11.32 the same day. The more I hear, the more I am dying inside. I can't believe this has been told to you. It's absolutely not true. I feel sick to my stomach. And then Neil Gaiman responds, heart pounding. So he's really clearly anxious about the Me Too, but it seems.

Then this from Scarlett, which is 1139, so still in the same conversation at the same time. I feel like bawling my eyes out. I would never Me Too you. I don't know where that came from and I have told Amanda that even though it began questionably, eventually it was undoubtedly consensual and I enjoyed it. Heart is pounding too. Neil, I am so deeply sorry to hear how terrifying this has been for you. I feel like I am being head fucked. I am so, so shocked. That line, even though it began questionably, eventually it was undoubtedly consensual, is really key. Could Neil Gaiman have held a reasonable belief that Scarlett was consenting to sexual activity in the bath within hours of meeting her? Neil Gaiman's position on Scarlett's use of

questionably to describe how their sexual relationship began, is that he doesn't know what it refers to, and he wishes that he had asked Scarlett about it at the time, and that he can only imagine it was in reference to the impromptu outdoor bath within hours of him first meeting Scarlett. There's something else in that message exchange which is extraordinary to read. Neil Gaiman wants a favour. If I had Wayne, our therapist, call you, would you talk to him and just tell him what you've been telling me? Scarlett says,

Okay, I am nauseous, and yes, of course I will speak to Wayne. He had the therapist call me so that I could tell the therapist that he didn't write me and all of this. This is unusual, to say the least. Wayne Muller, who is retained by the couple and bound by codes of confidentiality to his clients, not Scarlet, gets in touch with her at Neil Gaiman's request. The therapist messages Scarlet, saying he'd be happy to speak to her in complete confidence because he had heard that she found herself,

in his words, in the midst of relationships, stories and narratives, not alas necessarily of your own making. Sadly, this is not a surprise. Two creative, dynamic people can easily draw others into their orbit, unaware of how powerfully the magnetic pull of their influences can have on others. Some people land in places of confusion, unclarity or uncertainty how to respond to this. We wanted to speak to Wayne Muller.

But he never responded to our detailed questions about his role in this story. Scarlett does speak to Wayne Muller, and she tells Neil Gaiman that she has found it helpful. Again, we have contacted Amanda Palmer on multiple occasions for comment over WhatsApp and email. She never replied to or acknowledged our messages. We also tried contacting her friends. On the 25th of March, a day after that long exchange of messages, Neil Gaiman learns from Amanda Palmer that the detail of what Scarlett is alleging comes from the WhatsApp message from Misma. The next day, Neil Gaiman messages Scarlett. Misma's message to Amanda is kind of awful, I'm a monster in it. A short while later he messages again.

Knowing that you would be prepared to say, it's not true, it was consensual, he's not a monster, makes me a lot more grounded. Scarlet responds, It was consensual. How many times do I have to fucking tell everyone? My name's Catherine Jackson and I'm a criminal defence solicitor at the firm Bindmans. I practise in a broad range of areas, but I think probably sexual offences has been quite a large part of my experience. For defence solicitors like Catherine Jackson, messages like this are important, because they can raise questions about the credibility of a complainant. One would expect, and it would usually be the case, that if somebody is the victim of a serious sexual offence,

they're either going to report it to the police fairly immediately or they're going to want nothing more to do with that person. So if you then have a scenario where there's further contact in the aftermath, and particularly if it's instigated by the complainant, then that is already potentially undermining the credibility of the complainant who's saying I was the victim of a serious sexual offence, and yet, here we go, I've actually continued to stay in touch. In her experience, prosecutors tend to take such messages at face value, which makes them, she says, gold dust for defence lawyers. I'd say the bulk of my cases actually end at investigation stage.

The bulk of my cases set in sexual offences do not result in a charge. Neil Gaiman's position is that messages from Scarlett, particularly the ones where she says their relationship became consensual, should stop us from publishing her belated allegations of sexual misconduct. That the messages are evidence of consent and so there can be no misconduct. Two days after Neil Gaiman and Scarlett exchanged those messages about consent, Amanda Palmer also leaves New Zealand. It's now late March 2022. Scarlett feels totally abandoned, alone and desperate. By the evening of the 10th of April, she's admitted to Auckland Hospital with suicidal thoughts. Neil Gaiman's account suggests we should treat Scarlett's allegations

with caution, as they first surfaced when she was hospitalised, he says, for the treatment of a condition that's associated with false memories. But we know her allegations predate her admission to hospital. Scarlett's medical records also show us that Neil Gaiman's claim that Scarlett has a serious pre-existing medical condition to be false. According to her records, she presented as a genuinely high risk of suicide and was discharged after recovering overnight. There's no mention, even in her previous medical history, of any condition like the one Neil Gaiman claimed in his account.

The only medication she was on was the sleeping pill, Zopiclone. Suddenly when I was in hospital like i remember you know i remember suddenly he started sending me chocolates and and and videos of fiona shaw talking to me and you know because he knew i loved fiona shaw and had a crush on fiona shaw all this weird and kept me sort of just enough neil gaiman and Scarlett continue to message each other. Hello. This is a little film. I really do get it. Get it about just feeling like you're at the end.

The one thing that always has kept me holding on so far is just the knowledge that, you know, suicide can be a very permanent end to some temporary problems. I think you're funny and smart and a good person and I think you have to stick around so I can introduce you to Fiona Shaw at like the Anansi Boys premiere or something. Scarlett messages back. This made me smile to no end. I can't stop smiling. It is so lovely to hear your voice and see you and that hilarious hotel room. Fuck. Thank you for overjoying me and touching my heart. The Fiona Shaw idea always helps me escape from the tendrils of suicide. It makes me so elated on a cellular level. Thank you, Neil. Neil Gaiman. I'm glad I made you smile. Fiona Shaw. A Nancy Boy's fancy premiere.

Scarlett and Neil both stay alive. Scarlett's in a bad place. No job. Nowhere to live. Still feeling suicidal. Neil Gaiman is also feeling suicidal, he tells Scarlett, and Scarlett thinks she's supporting him. Neil's position on the messages is, again, that they must be taken at face value, that he was low too. Neil Gaiman has, on his social media often, talked about his own struggles with mental health. Hey, just sending you a message to remind you it will all be okay. That may be hard to believe right now for you where you are but honestly it will all be okay.

Promise. Hi, Scarlett. Fiona Shaw here. We're being introduced by Neil Gaiman, and I am up in Edinburgh. As you can see, I have just been doing some of my work on Neil Gaiman's series, Anansi Boys. Anyway, I understand that you are going through a tough time and a rough time, and I hope that you'll be much the better soon and that I will get to meet you with Neil and maybe my hair won't be quite like this when we do. So lovely to meet you. Good luck. Right.

I called, but hopefully the sleeping pills have worked and you're fast asleep. So, so what? So, when you wake up, the world is easier. Hang in there. We have to keep each other's head above water. I'll help with you. And that's all. Okay. Neil Gaiman didn't respond to our specific question on this video. He didn't tell us whether Fiona Shaw knew the background or reason for it. He didn't tell us what he had asked Fiona Shaw in order for her to agree to the video. On the same day that Neil Gaiman sends those videos, the 15th of April, Scarlett is also

reaching out to a former employee of Neil Gaiman and Amanda Palmer. Scarlett does this because she's heard that this young female also had a hard time in the Gaiman Palmer household. Scarlett tells the former employee she's had some pretty awful things happen to her while working for Neil Gaiman and Scarlett wanted to know, did similar things happen to her? The woman responds, concerned about Scarlett but doesn't answer the question. And all the while, Scarlett's messages to Neil Gaiman continue. I miss you so much, as I said in my text. I hope that you're doing all right. Let me know. I worry.

I am doing better today. I've been terrible. And not really sure what just happened, but it will sink in. I thank you for all your help. I'm so grateful. It will get better for both of us. She's still holding out for a connection, a relationship, a promise, even a lie. Her hope that this hadn't really been an exploitation but was genuine, I'm sure, went on for some time because who wants to acknowledge they've been victimised in that way? In fact, your hope is that you haven't been victimized

because the person does really care about you. What's the bit that hurts most? Just something fundamentally has shifted in me and I haven't been able to quite get that, get what it was back. And the pain is also injustice and, you know, just, you know, horror that I let myself get subjected to some of that stuff and didn't recognise that it wasn't normal. It's the 10th of May, 2022. Hello, Scarlet. Right, I'm in Denver on tour. Still alive, which is good.

Doing basically okay, I think. Life is just weird. And on the rent thing, that all looks great. And I figured my idea would be just to look after your rent

for about six months which gives you time to get on top of life and the world get a job, figure out what you're doing who you are and such like and there you go

so that was my idea on that. And other than that, I don't know. Sending love. I hope you're okay. Okay, bye. He was paying me 350 New Zealand dollars a week, not a lot, 175 pounds, to get me back on my feet. A day later, on the 11th of May, Scarlett gets an email from Neil Gaiman's bookkeeper in Los Angeles.

How are you? I hope all is well. Attached is an NDA form. We request all service providers for Neil to sign the attached. Would you kindly sign it and email it back to me? I am also sending you a wire for your rent deposit and first week. And to get that money he said I need you to sign this NDA. But Scarlett has a question. Why does he want her to sign an NDA now? She's no longer providing services. Her nanny job didn't even come with her contract and she wasn't working for Neil Gaiman and Amanda Palmer on the 11th of May 2022 when she received the NDA.

Neil Gaiman's personal assistant reassures Scarlett it's just the standard form. And so I signed an NDA. The agreement binds Scarlett to use her best endeavours to stop the disclosure of any information concerning Neil Gaiman, including but not limited to his characteristics, customs, views,iman, including, but not limited to, his characteristics,

customs, views, opinions, ideas, conduct, habits, purchases, shopping preferences slash habits, personal database slash contacts, photographs and videotapes, travel itineraries, social slash family interactions...

Scarlett signed this NDA on the 25th of May. She says she didn't even read it because she doesn't understand legal stuff. It supposedly binds her to confidentiality indefinitely. And here's another thing about the NDA found in its schedule on the last page. It's backdated to the 4th of February 2022.

That's the day Scarlett first met Neil Gaiman and he ran her that bath. Neil Gaiman didn't respond to specific questions on why he had an NDA sent to Scarlett long after she had stopped providing services, why it was backdated to the day of the birth, or why he couldn't have sent her rent money without it. His position is that NDAs are generally standard practice, especially for those who supply services to a family in a domestic setting

or to people with a degree of public prominence. By the summer of 2022, Scarlett is getting to a point where she feels ready to report Neil Gaiman to the police. We know this because on the 16th of August, she messages the former employee again. She tells her that she wants to report Neil Gaiman, but that she feels powerless and scared. She adds, There is also a lot of evidence of me writing to his therapist, saying everything was consensual, when actually, of course, it wasn't fucking consensual.

In her reply, the woman asks Scarlett whether she went to a rape crisis centre, and she advises Scarlett not to contact anyone else until she's done that, or gone to the police. Then, she adds, unsure if you signed an NDA, followed by a sad face emoji. Despite her anxieties about the NDA, on the 21st of October, eight months after Neil Gaiman left, Scarlett emails New Zealand police. She says she wants to report a sexual assault that happened to her in February. She writes, he's an extremely high

profile individual and possesses a great deal of financial and celebrity power. Scarlett and the police officer exchange emails. She also continues exchanging messages with Neil Gaiman. On the 28th of December 2022, she asks Neil Gaiman for help to cover her rent for January, because the only work she's been able to find are a few pre-Christmas shifts at a cafe, and shops were now closed for the holidays until mid-January. Neil Gaiman replies a few hours later, how much do you need? She tells him the rent amount and then, in her last ever message to him, on the same day, she asks how he's feeling about returning to New Zealand. He says he's looking forward to it. In January 2023, Scarlett is formally interviewed by the police in Auckland. The interview is videotaped and runs over three days. Scarlett hands in her personal phone with

all the whatsapps. On the 20th of January, Scarlett gets her final, unprompted WhatsApp message from Neil Gaiman. Dot, dot, dot. Are you OK? Scarlett doesn't reply. She has had no direct contact with him since. She says she cut him off because she'd now been to the police and that she felt like a fraud for taking his money only to report him. But she doesn't hear anything from New Zealand police. After the gruelling three-day interview, after handing in her phone and following up with emails, including sending the police her NDA, it has all seemingly come to nothing.

Neil Gaiman's position is that this is because her allegations lacked substance and are contradicted on face value by the WhatsApps. Almost a year passes and she still hasn't heard of any progress with her case. And she's not sure what else to do as she's still anxious about her NDA. She still felt like she couldn't, as the NDA dictated, speak to anyone about her experience with Neil Gaiman, about anything at all to do with him. It's a clear, you know, as in most cases with NDAs, massive disparity of arms. You know, the power disparity between a young woman and an older,

powerful, successful man. She was away from home. She was reliant on him financially. This is Zelda Perkins. She worked as Harvey Weinstein's assistant in the 90s and was made to sign an NDA by him after he allegedly raped one of their colleagues. Zelda Perkins broke her NDA in 2017, helping to precipitate Harvey Weinstein's downfall. She's been campaigning against the abuse of NDAs ever since. In the summer of 2023, Scarlett meets Zelda Perkins thanks to a mutual friend. It was clear that she was still very traumatised by what had happened to her. And from the severity of what Scarlett told me, I felt that her best step actually at that point was to report it to the police. To me, her NDA was the least of her concerns.

And in that context, an NDA, can an NDA stop? It's unenforceable. Essentially, 90% of NDAs are unenforceable anyway. Scarlett had already reported Neil Gaiman to the police, but most people don't know that NDAs can't be used to stop those who've signed them from reporting criminal behaviour. They're designed to frighten them into silence. There is a change beginning because it is now very apparent that having an NDA isn't reputational protection. It's clear Scarlett did initially feel silenced by her NDA and she thought she needed to sign

it to have her rent paid. But it didn't stop her from making a police report. And after speaking to Zelda, she's beginning to see that the NDA is part of the abuse, an ongoing part of it. That abuse repeats itself every single day because you do not have the right to own your own trauma, to speak your own trauma, to heal, to move on. And the worst of it all when it comes to something like this is you're constantly nagged by that feeling of complicity

in the continuation of that behaviour with other people. Over that summer, Scarlett talks to friends, makes plans for her future and begins her recovery. After speaking to Zelda, she no longer feels silenced. But telling her story to the police hasn't seemingly led anywhere. I wanted to know if anyone else had come forward, but that's clearly not the case. Well, I've taken on board what you said about other people, and I've done an open source search, and I've found nothing that supports

that he's up to mischief with other people as well. There's a lot of writing... But Scarlett isn't alone. It was all of 2003 when I met him at the book signing. And then the next year was when he invited us out and I was 19. And then the next year that he came out, I would have been 20. The police haven't found anyone. But we have heard from someone else.

I was employed full timetime at the zoo. He came to the zoo once, actually, and, like, visited. And I remember he would not take off his black leather jacket, even though it was, like, summer in Florida. And he was like, oh, I just, you know, that's my thing. And he's, like, actively sweating and also, like, worried about being recognized. She was in a relationship with Neil Gaiman for about two years. At this point, all of my work is attached to,

I am dating a famous person. The really interesting thing about me is that I am dating this guy who has this exciting life. And by proxy, I am exciting. He could do whatever he wanted, and I would do whatever it took to keep that relationship going. She has a story to tell about Neil Gaiman. And like Scarlett's, it's not a straightforward one.

And I would say, OK, OK, we can fool around, but you can't put anything in my vagina. You just can't because I will die. And it didn't matter. He did it anyway. He did it anyway, although you told him you were in pain. Barry specifically said, you cannot put anything in me. Please don't.

It will hurt very badly and it will make things worse than they already are. Because I know for sure, I remember for sure in Cornwall saying those words out loud. Neil Gaiman has a clear position on this woman's story. That it is false. And he denies any unlawful behaviour. It's certainly

complicated. But it's a story, like Scarlett, that's worth hearing. Shall I show you the ocean in the end of the line? That's what we're looking for. I know that. First though,

we want to go in search of Neil Gaiman before he became famous. The fame and status that played such a part in both women's relationships with him. So just see here, this is the ocean at the end of the line. It's a journey that takes us through the worlds of Scientology and comic books

to the ocean at the end of the lane. The sociologist Dr. Evan Stark, who we spoke to for this episode, died on the 18th of March this year, a few weeks after we interviewed him. This series is reported by me, Paul Caruana Galizia, and by Rachel Johnson. It is written by us,

and by Katie Gunning, who is also the producer. Sound design and original music is by Tom Kinsella. Additional reporting is by Jess Swinburne. Artwork is by John Hill. The series editor is Matt Russell. The editor is Jasper Corbett. TOTUS