Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - 3 Hours of Wrongful Arrest Stories

Episode Date: October 22, 2023

3 Hours of Wrongful Arrest Stories

Everyday people, they're busy watching these shows that majority of them are showing, we caught the killer, we caught the person, and they're behind bars. And then everybody, they watch the show and it's horrible, what happened, it's gruesome. And somebody died, but they caught the killer. Okay, good. That's a good story. Good night. I'm going to rest sadly knowing our criminal justice system gets it right every time they're going to catch the guy.

That is so far from the truth. You hear that a lot where somebody comes on a theme and, you know, they're panicking and they're trying to guess, like, what happened. The assumption that the person makes on that 911 call, whether it's a true assumption or not, it'll come back to bite you for sure because they're listening to see, are you trying to already stage an alternative situation as far as, you know, what happened to her. You're already down this path of, like, creating this fabrication. And he goes ahead and he says, look, I'm holding off the other detectives from hurting you. They want to hurt you for what you did. Tell them something and you can go home. Just tell them something so I can get you out.

Go home. So, like. Famous last word. So he said, so I tell them based on all the things that they had said, I kind of knew what happened. And I tell them. What ended up happening? They charged him. Hey, this is Matt Cox, and I am here with Fatima Silva.

Probably said it wrong. And she is a defense attorney and the co-host of the, I think, A&E TV show, which is called Reasonable Doubt. And I believe it was on for, I don't know, eight or nine years. So we'll find out in a second. So I appreciate you guys watching and check out the interview. You're a criminal defense attorney. Yes, few things. You actually got my name right.

So it is Fatina Silva. It's on that. But the show is on ID Channel. That was originally what it was on Discovery. Now you can find it on Mac. Oh, it's not on A&E? Yeah. No, A&E was my partner's former show.

So my partner, Chris Anderson, he was on the first 48, and that was A&E. But it's all owned by Discovery, which is now all owned by Warner Brothers. So you could basically find us on Macs now. Okay. Yeah. And it ran for five seasons. Oh, five seasons? All right.

And this was last, it was like canceled last season or something? Or they just didn't? They didn't renew it last year. Warner Brothers took over and things, a lot of things have changed. And our show, you know, nothing against ID channel or anything like that. But it, I mean, it's a. great channel they had our show for five years but if you do go to the network and you watch a lot of their shows you'll find it you know a lot of shows like um neighbors who kill or wives with knives

you know a lot more salacious stories right our show was not like that at all our show was a mission driven true justice show about wrongful convictions and looking into wrongful conviction so um we don't really have too much of that and i think that we have it we We have an incredible fan base, and a lot of people want to see the show back on a network. We have been, you know, on different networks, including Oprah's network. It is, it's just a different kind of show. It's something you wouldn't normally see. You're getting together a criminal defense journey, which is what I do for over a decade.

And my partner, Chris Anderson, the amazing Chris Anderson, who is a former homicide detective, He was on the first 48 for many years from Birmingham, Alabama, and then they got him on this show. And so together we have to look into these, it could be an old case or a new case, but families are reaching out to us. And they're saying, my loved one was wrongfully convicted of murder. Here's why. And a lot of people say that, right? And a lot of people believe it. They absolutely believe it.

You want to believe your loved one. I mean, let's say it's your father. Let's say it's your spouse and you're going to bed every night not knowing anything they're doing. I mean, gosh, that's a lot of these serial killers and typefucker. Like all these people who were married and just went home and went to bed and the woman had the white had no idea. So naturally, a lot of these people believe in their family's case. And so at first, we always go in with an open mind and we look at, okay, but what do you give us the evidence that you're looking at? Why do you feel it's a wrongful conviction?

We know. And so throughout the years, obviously, we've had hundreds of submissions. We could only take 10 cases a season. And so we would look at what are the reason. If the reasons were pretty legit, if something seemed fishy, we would always do a FOIA request or get all the information directly from the courts, not just the family. If there was something there, our producers would give it to Chris and I. And then we'd go and take a second look. We'd go to that state. We travel for every single episode. And we'd meet with a family and we'd dig into the case. And so, but ultimately, it's a homicide detective and a criminal defense attorney having to have a meeting of the minds, right? So if you can imagine it was just me and another criminal defense attorney or just me, I'd be wanting to look in every case. I'd say, you know what? We think your left ones are unfully convicted. Absolutely. We're going to provide you that private investigator.

Normally what we would do is provide them an appeals attorney private investigator. I would have been wanting to help everyone. That was my problem. I wanted to help everyone. And then Chris would probably err on the side of, nah, they're guilty. So what you have is us having to come together. We're looking at the evidence together.

Sometimes we're duking it out. Brother Lee and sister we love, though, because I really respect what he does. And we have an incredible relationship and respect for one another's profession. And I would say a lot of the times we were in agreement. There were some times I were getting some good fight. and I'd get up and walk away and slam the door and, you know, try to get the producers on my side.

But I'd say most of the time Chris was very reasonable and he could see, listen, he's able to say as a police officer for many years and still now, chief of police and still, you know, in law enforcement, he's, I love that he's able to say, no, the police did something wrong here. This investigation is screwed up. And, you know, I may not know if this person's wrongfully convicted, but there are people. case the second look. And so that's, I think, why the show worked really well. But it is for true justice warriors, really. It's not for people who just want to turn on true crime and use it for entertainment purposes.

That's not what we're about. These are a real-life job. Right. I mean, I was going to say that's, you know, that seems like a tough show for a producer because at least did cold case files. By the time the cold case

file people show up, those producers, it's already resolved. Like, you guys go through an entire investigation. And in the end, even if you lean one way or the other, it's still not really resolved. Does that make sense? Like, oh, and that's what drove people. I mean, I'll be super transparent. Our fans, they love us. They love the show. And our true fans, you know, they're following us for years. But there were a lot of people and you get comments like, what is the outcome of this? Like, what happened? Because we would just say at the end, you know, a Kristen 15, provided a private investigator. And it depends on what the issue was, right? If the issue

with something with the trial and the needing to get an appeals lawyer, we would provide that. If the issue was gathering more evidence and still doing interviews, we would provide a private investigator. But at the end, can you imagine you've gone on this wild roller coaster ride and you find out this person may be innocent? And then at the very end, you're not told if they get out of jail. Wow, that's our criminal justice system. Unfortunately, it's very slow. And I can tell right now the exciting thing is that a five season 10 a season we obviously didn't help everyone there were times chris and i had to sit across from families and as a criminal events journey i hated this part but i would say we can't provide you help we think the only how good it doesn't look good

and i would leave if if we felt like the person really did it that was chris's job he would say this person is where they belong and he would rarely say that because uh he's just filled with so much empathy and compassion for people that he understands how hard that is to hear. So the way we would frame it is, you know, I think this is going to be an uphill battle for you every year. And the more you invest, the more you mortgage your house, the more you continue to just not go out and live your life, the more you're going to find that you're going to be disappointed because there's nothing that's going to overturn this conviction. It's going to be very difficult. And that's kind of the way we would say they might be guilty. I would never feel comfortable saying somebody

really did it. There were maybe a few that I agreed with Chris. Yeah, they did it. But that's not something I was comfortable with. But yeah, it's tough because out of the people we did help, let's say anywhere from three to four a season, you're not getting the update immediately. And so people naturally, we all want resolve. We all want closure, right? We're watching a show. We want to see what's the outcome? Did the person do it? Our show is. Our show is a journey. And we are hoping and trying to pitch an update episode with ID channel with Discovery because we have so many updates. We have so many of these folks out. I'd say not even a quarter, more than a quarter of the people are out of jail now. They either got released on early parole

suddenly. Convictions have been overturned. They're getting a new trial. So suddenly, you know, they're released home. And so we do have a lot of updates for people. We try to update people on our Instagrams. But I could say that that is tough when you're watching a show and you don't know the outcome. But that is the purpose of our show to really draw back the curtains and show everyone. This is our criminal justice. And guess what? If you're innocent and if somebody else is coming forward and they're saying, hey, I didn't.

See you five years down the line still in jail because that's the way our system set up. Innocent or not, they like finality. That's what the court liked. So now at that trial phase, everybody, thinks innocent until proven guilty. Yeah, you're giving that one shot. And even then, is it really innocent until proven guilty? Come on.

But now you get to the appeals phase. Guess what? That burden completely shifts. Now it's guilty until you can prove your innocent. Not maybe innocent. Not maybe somebody else did it. Not, you know, that you may have an outlet. You have to prove your innocent.

But these people, did everyone that you took the case or you did an investigation into, did every one of those people go to trial or did some of those people plead guilty? Honestly, I think there was one or two where they pled because we really didn't, we didn't really want to work with cases where there was a plea. It just makes it difficult for Kristen and I to evaluate all the evidence, right? No evidence was really presented. And so now we just have your side of the story, which we understand there was one case where it felt like he was railroaded. And I think I do want to say he might have had a trial first. And then he ended up pleading after that trial may have been hung jury.

I can't remember. But there was one case I remember where he pledged. And we took it because we felt like he was totally railroaded. Yeah. I was going to say you were saying like the whole innocent tilt proving guilty. I had a friend in prison and he went to trial. And during, I think it was voir dire. when they're so the questioning yeah they're asking you know do you think that you can find his his lawyer said you know do you think you find him you know not guilty you know or um or you know whatever keep an open mind whatever it was keep an open mind i guess you keep an open mind and the guy goes well he was convicted of 47 counts of fraud he did something oh you mean charged yes he was charged sorry sorry sorry he was

charge was 47 or whatever it was 25 or 45 you know and and they were like yeah all right get him off the jury yeah that's what just said wordy of people believe right he just said what everybody else was thinking you know he was the only one he was honest that I have to go I don't think so I mean something's wrong right first of all he's sitting at the defendant's table that already doesn't look good um you know what I mean so it's it's that it real and I like how you said like everybody else is thinking it but nobody says it so you know the fact that he said it is is great because you can strike that person right they're already they have a bias coming in you're not supposed to you're supposed to go in with an open mind innocent and to prove it guilty but we do know everybody else is thinking that we know majority of citizens think that when they're watching these shows and when somebody is you know nowadays we have so much trial by media you're in the media and you are you know everybody saying oh they did it you don't even know all the evidence with, do you need it? You're already deciding, well, they probably did it. And that's when I encounter all the time with folks. And that's why I love shows like ours, because people just

have, you can, the story can fit so perfectly. You're like, who else would have done it? That person was the only person there, the only person with the motive. And then you just, all this other evidence comes in. And then later, you find out there was somebody else. I love those stories where it's like, no, it was a random person off the street. And people were like, it wasn't the husband like because we just that's what that's what people automatically go to and although the statistics may show that that's likely the case it's it's oftentimes when a woman's murdered it's somebody she knows somebody closer and all of that that does not mean you just take each defendant and oh well statistics show every person has the right to that benefit to of innocent until proven

guilty i forget the guy i interviewed the other day who was When to trial was found guilty. Gosh, what was his name, Russ? It was Russ something. Anyway, they made a, they did a movie about his case on, uh, was it Netflix? Anyway, it was, uh, it was, um, I think it was called, so I don't know I'm going to do. We let all due to details, Matt. It was, it was called like, uh, the thing about mayor or the thing about Pam.

Did you see that? Yeah. I interviewed the guy at, uh, I think. I think his name was Russ. Really nice guy. Yeah. Yeah. But he was so funny because, you know, he said, no, listen, they, yeah, the husband that they found guilty.

He's like, I mean, I came home and she'd been stabbed to death. He's like, and I did. He's like, I did. You know, his biggest mistake. Well, not his biggest mistake, but one of his mistakes was, you know, he said she tried to commit or she committed suicide. He's like, I didn't notice that, you know, he's like, I didn't notice that she's been stabbed a bunch of times. I just, there was just a lot of blood. And there was a, you know, there was a knife sticking out of her neck.

He said, but for some reason, I just thought, you know, she could have just stabbed herself a bunch of times. He's like, I don't, you know, I was in a panic. Oh, they were just trying to get them there. Tough. Right. So then, of course, they should, by the time they show up, it's done. They're already talking in the front yard like, oh, never thought my first homicide case would be this easy. What a slam dunk.

They've already decided. I mean, you hear that a lot where somebody comes on a theme. And, you know, they're panicking and they're trying to guess, like, what happened. And any time you hear, and this happened in one of our cases, the guy says she, she must have been, oh, she must have been cleaning the gun and it went off, right? The assumption that the person makes on that 911 call, whether it's a true assumption or not, it'll come back to bite you for sure. because they're listening to see, are you trying to already stage an alternative, you know, situation as far as, you know, what happened to her? You're already down this path of, like, creating this fabrication when really he might have just been panicking, but I don't, I don't know how you think someone's just going to. Yeah.

Most people don't kill him. But I mean, he clearly, he didn't, he didn't do it. Like, they've already, they're. He didn't do it. Right. I know the case. They indicted, by the way, they indicted Pam. Yeah.

They indicted her. Yeah. Well, she was found guilty on another charge. She went to hire somebody. That case is wild. I mean, listen, the more he talked, and I, of course, I saw the show. I saw the show afterwards. I said, listen, we got to watch the show.

And so afterwards, I was like, I should have watched this beforehand. Like, come on. Oh, it had so many more. You're telling me, you got to interview him, and I'm thinking, oh, I would have loved that. Listen, but here's the thing. He was a great storyteller. Great story. like he wanted him on art yeah he was really good um i was going to say i have another guy named

wade who actually runs a youtube channel called crime and entertainment and it's funny so he contacted me and was like hey i would really love for you to come on my channel and you know he was like hey look and i'm be honest with you man he said i just started it i got like a thousand two thousand subscribers he's like I just started, but I love your story, and I've been reaching out to people. And I was like, yeah, I'll do it. Well, I don't care. Sure. You know, no problem. I got some time. So I did it, you know, whatever, a few days later. And so six months went by. And he called, you know, sent me a text and was like, hey, can I talk to you in the phone for a minute? I was like, yeah, what's up? And he said, so I didn't want to say this before. But he said, I had something

to happen. And it's basically wrapped up now. And I'd like to come on your. show. And I said, well, what happened? And he said, well, the quick version is he and his wife split up. She started dating someone else. He and his wife started seeing each other again, right? Like they decided to make a go of it. His wife tells the other guy, look, I'm going to get back together. I got a couple kids with this guy. You know, we had a bad patch. I realize I'm still very much in love with him. I'm getting back together with him. I'm sorry. Well, the guy is basically going around telling people i'm going to kill this guy so at some point he's like at some point a buddy of his they're all kind of a circle of friends right loose-knit friends but a buddy they were

together and they were kind of drinking and he calls him up and says listen and i've been talking to him like he just wants to talk to you and so wade says i mean i'll talk to him that's fine so wade goes over to his house he's like you know it's it's you know it's common ground it's kind of neutral program and he got some beers and he had some basic question you know he said it wasn't it was like look how long's this been going on just want to know like was she seeing you behind my back you know like I thought it was over I really like he really liked his wife he's like I felt bad for him so I told him right he said I told him what he wanted to hear you know obviously it's like no we just just started talking just started yeah right right you know it hasn't been

happening so you know and keep by this is still my wife like this is my wife you know yeah we You know, it's a weird situation, but he said, the guy was, he said, we're okay. He said, but we've been drinking. And so Wade said, he went and took him to his house or something along those lines. He was supposed to drop him off at his house. They went by his house for some reason. He was, the guy was like, he didn't want to go home. Let's stop at your house.

Let's have some beer, something like that. He's like, okay, whatever. So they go to his house is we have some more beers. And he said the guy at one point, I can mind, Wade has a. a concealed weapons permit and a concealed weapon. And he said, and the guy knew it because the eye showed it to him earlier. You know, he said, we had a conversation about it. So the guy had just gotten out of the military, whatever. Um, he said, we're sitting there talking and we're joking around. He's like, we were laughing and having like just perfectly great conversation is that

all of a sudden he gets this look on his face. And he says, tells him he's like, I'm going to kill you. And he's like, what? And he goes, and I mean, literally, he just attacked me. He's, well, first the guy he said he went to the bathroom came back and just he's like so when he came back i'm still he said he just looked at him and went i'm going to kill you and he went what and he said the guy just charged me you so we're struggling he we're not really fighting we're struggling he was he did swing on me a couple times punched him in the back of the head and wade said at some point he was he was bigger than wade he was he was bigger than me he was what at some point he said they're they're kind of grappling back and forth these,

and I kind of held him for just a second, and I was like, you need to calm down. He's like, I, I, you know, like, I have a gun on me. And he's like, now he's afraid. He goes, now he may go for the gun. Like, I don't know, like, yeah, I have a gun on me. Like, if you don't back off, like, you're going to get shot. And he said, they pushed him back again.

Guy charged him again. Pushed him back again. He's like, pushed it back again. And I said, man, I'm not fucking around. He's like, do not. And he goes, a guy came at me again. He said, I pulled the gun. Boom.

I shot him. He didn't shoot him. He said, I thought I shot him twice, but I shot him three times. Well, when he called 911, he was like, he was still alive. I was like, hey, listen, I just shot this guy in my house. And they go, is he alive? He's still alive. He's making noise.

He's laying on the ground. He, you know, you got to come. But one of the things they said in his case was he wasn't upset enough. Like, I'm drunk. And I don't know. this guy. And I don't really, no, I'm not really all that upset. You know, like I don't feel like I've done anything wrong. Right. I always hear these people like he was too upset. No, no. He wasn't upset enough. Apparently, there's a proper amount of upsetness as you have to be to pass the

smell test. Like, I don't know. I'll tell that people, most of our cases that we would handle, there was always an opinion if there was a 911 call or, you know, the cops, when, you know, they encountered the person afterward, they were driving up to the station for an interview. But their behavior in the car, you know, they were, they just seemed relaxed. They didn't ask any questions about whether the person had passed away or not. I mean, there was so much critique, so much emphasis on how they reacted to a situation. Because as human beings, we tend to think, we, the only way we look at a situation is how can we relate to it? How would I behave? How would I react? And it's such a problem in criminal cases

because you're always and juries do the same thing. Well, I would not have acted that way. Have you been in that situation? Right. And even if you have, you're not the same person, right? So if I'm in an argument with my husband, how we fight is going to be different how you and your wife fight. It's just that everybody is different. Everyone reacts differently. And so this idea that everyone should be uniform in how we react to a situation of finding our spouse shot or anything like that. It's really unfair, and it does play a big role in whether somebody's charged and whether somebody's convicted. And it's the same thing with a jury watching a defendant and their divider in court and how they react to, oh, you know, well, when they put up the photos of the victim

and the, you know, it was so gruesome what had happened to the victim. That person didn't cry. They didn't shut the tear. They didn't. Guess what? As a defense attorney, I'm sitting there going, do not show any, just lay any emotion. You don't, because if you start crying, oh, that's me. That was fabricated. Or that's guilt.

He's crying. I'm a guilt. Right. Oh, no. And so it's like you're, you're dumbed if you do. Right. If he was just so emotional, people would say, why was that guy emotional? I mean, another guy tried to attack him, right?

Without defense. If you're not emotional, you're a killer. It's like, it's really. really tough. What ended up happening? They charged him. They charged him and he went to jail. He luckily, and listen, this is for sure, you know this.

Luckily, he had like $100,000 in his 401k and he was able to bond out and get a decent attorney and eventually the district attorney changed after about two years.

years and they presented and so the new district attorney his attorney went to him and said I want to show you the evidence that we have and he goes you know that was a big he goes it's a big he was it was a big risk he's like this is a listen this is a state you know this was in like south carolina like there's a castle law stand your ground all of that he's like this guy's in his house but the evidence the investigation that the state has had done was he's there's no there was no no signs of a struggle he said but we got the body camera from the video from the videos you could see the glass a glass on the ground you could see things knocked over you could like you could see all this stuff but yet the report said there

was the report said no sign of a struggle oh of course no there's none and then you know he wasn't upset and they like they had all these things that were just completely incorrect they were saying that they believed he might have even been kind of executed because of the way the trajectory of the bullet well he the guy was running forward they were saying look he was bent over so he wasn't they weren't like this you know they think he was maybe on his knees or bent over he shot him while he was on his knees or executed like no we have that in the case too right we have a whole jury they presented to an entire jury look at they were standing over them and then later and the jury convicted that person and later was the person was coming

towards them and so you're going to have different bullet trajectory the assumptions that are made are so scary well luckily he they had an independent forensic you know examiner come in luckily he had enough money to do that so when they presented the case they at least like they we showed them our case their case here's what's going on this is a problem and he said keep in mind too it's like they didn't even want to go trial like they kept putting it off putting it off putting it all it's it's years and they haven't dropped the charges but they also haven't um brought me to trial so anyway after about he said after about two weeks his attorney called him up and said hey you're you're a free man they dropped the charges great over yeah done so he got he got he got one they had to do a proper investigation

but two years yeah that's a long time well i mean i mean here's the thing like had he not had $100,000? Right. He would have been in. He wouldn't have been able to, you know, meet with as many attorneys. He wouldn't have had the finances to have an independent forensic. A lot of times if you go with the public defender, the public defender has to ask support, you know, this is what we need. And resources are very scarce. And so you're not going to get the greatest experts. And a case can absolutely come down to expert, who can have the best expert. It means and financial means, it makes

a huge difference in criminal court, sadly. Yeah, I'll listen to God. I mean, I'm sure you want to go. I mean, we've seen some wild stuff on our show. You would love. It's just, it blows people's vines, and I think there's such a trust of our criminal justice system. I think everyday people,

they're busy watching these shows that majority of them are showing we caught the killer, we caught the person and they're behind bars and then everybody, they watch the show and it's horrible, what happened, it's gruesome and somebody died, but they caught the killer. Okay, good, that's a good story.

Good night. I'm going to rest sadly knowing our criminal justice system gets it right every time they're going to catch the guy. That is so far from the same truth. And our show is about exposing that. It's about exposing when you jump to conclusion, when you have investigators who, let's not even say, I mean, that's pretty shady stuff that the investigators and that would write, oh, no, struggle, what size of a struggle like this?

Let's say you just have investigators who think they're doing the right thing. Gosh, how many people are behind bars and convicted wrongfully because investigators thought they were doing the right thing. They had this hunch. It was this person. And so what happens is you get this, you know, tunnel vision. And Chris talks about it. As investigators, he sees it happen. And, you know, even he has been there where you follow, you want to follow these leads all the way until

something else comes up. But what's happening is oftentimes you get this tunnel vision, you don't see anything else. You're no longer questioning anyone out. And you're just jumping to what your experience is as an investigator, what majority of the cases show. And you're following that leap and you're making this circle try to fit in a square. And at the very end, you can get a jury to say, yeah, we agree with you. I was sorry, I was going to say, I was called that like padding

a file, you know, where you just continually interview people that believe the same thing you believe. You interview this person, why? Because I know that this person told me, this person told them this. Well, I want to interview them.

I interview them because I start interviewing only people that are in agreement. The moment somebody else says, well, this person doesn't think they did it i do a cursory investigation i bolt so it's one page as opposed to these six and these six different interviews they're five and six pages deep they're all sure they all know something but this one guy who said yeah but what about this that's two paragraphs you know i leave and i didn't that and anybody he mentioned in there i didn't follow up on any of the things i don't follow up on so by the time you're done with your file it's super sick with this is the

guy. And here's why. And you've got maybe one or two people that disagree, but there are three paragraphs on a couple of pages. And a great example. I just saw this really good. It was a Netflix missing episode. And they basically had been searching for a suspect for really a lot of kind of facilitate out of Japan. And it was this British woman who was missing in Japan. And there was this investigation, but it was going cold. And What they end up seeing is when they finally get all this pressure, right, I minister from Britain comes, and they get all this pressure from Japanese, you know, higher ups.

So now they're taking a second look at the case. And so when these investigators who are tasked with going back to take that second look, they see this part where somebody has this really strong lead. It says so a manager at this place that this guy would come in and he had complaints about this guy from many of the women. But then there's the investigator's conclusion. And he fails to follow up and says, this manager typically tells, lies and is unreliable and has issues. I guess they just had issues with him in general. So they just

dismissed what he said. In the end, that lead was the suspect. And so they went back and they looked at that lien. But this is months later, I think years later. So in the meantime, more people, more women are missing. And who knows what he was doing in that in the meantime, the problem is when you have an investigator who has this bias and isn't looking at every read and just says, well, I know this guy of experience with him, he's unreliable, well, then nobody else is going to follow with all that. It's so dangerous. It is so dangerous. I interviewed a guy when he was 16 years old. One of his classmates was killed maybe half a mile or a mile from his house. And he was kind of an odd guy. Like he's like, you know, I was, I had friends. He said I had friends, but they

weren't in school. Like, there were kids around the neighborhood. So I was a little bit of a loner. Well, the homicide detectives went and talked to several of her friends at school. And they had a psychological profile done by the FBI. And it said it's probably one of his, her classmates, probably somebody that knows her, probably a loner. And when they told that to the kids, they all pointed, they were like, oh, what about this guy? He has a couple classes with her. They've said hi to each other. They don't really know each other very well, but he's a loner. and he's kind of a little odd. They go, they grab him.

They bring him to the police station. They question him for eight hours. The detective tells him, it's not videoed, not recorded. And this goes on for, off and on for about a month. Finally, they get him in there, and they question him one day. They polygraph him. They tell him he failed the polygraph. And the detective that's been acting like his buddy after about

eight hours. He said, I'm literally, I'm in tears, I'm crying. They're telling me this is what I did. They've got a polygraph. They're telling me. And he goes ahead and he, he says, look, I'm holding off the other detectives from hurting you. They want to hurt you for what you did. Tell them something and you can go home. Just tell them something so I can get you out. Go home. So I. Famous last word. So he said, so I tell them based on all the things that they had said, I kind of know. knew what happened. And I tell him. So he said, in the meantime, of course, I said, I, you know, I go to jail. He said, I'm, my mom's got, I've got like a single mother. She didn't have any money. So he stays in jail for the whole duration when he goes to trial. So once he's in jail, he says,

I didn't do, listen, false confession. So he goes to trial. By the time they go to trial, they get the DNA back. And it says it's another, it's not his DNA. Well, now what they, they say is, well the girl was promiscuous even though nothing said that keep in mind his public defender's trying to tell she had intercourse earlier that day but then this guy came in yeah oh yeah we've heard that and he must have used a

that was actually the Central Park Five I think they tried saying too oh well this other guy said he did it and they was his DNA oh yeah but then these guys came upon her and then killed her okay despite all of the evidence he's found guilty goes to trial he fights and fights and fight for 16 years

finally the innocence project comes along they turn his case down three times by the way they're like he's DNA or no I'm sorry there's not DNA there was they're like you know he he signed a confession he confessed so he's been turned down

he's gone all the way through the appeals process he's been turned down by like the Supreme Court wouldn't even listen to the case like no We don't have enough here. So finally, he gets a low-level assistant to say, look, all he's asking for is that you test the DNA against the current DNA because there was no database when he was found guilty. No database to check it again. They just checked against him. Wasn't him.

So they said, okay, fine. They put it in the system and comes back to a guy who was 20,000. 29 years old at the time, a kind of a vagrant drug addict. And the girl. Currently in prison for murdering a school teacher with two kids. So while you guys focused on me and put me in... He ran and killed another woman.

He killed someone else. So even though all the evidence said that it wasn't me, you had, you, here's what bothers me is it's not just him. It's not just like a detective. It's two detectives of probably a few prosecutors. Oh, absolutely. And was anybody else charged for that, you know, for convicting and going after the roundback?

You'll never see it. You'll never see a DA charge. I mean, you have to have some major conduct. But just lacking in experience, lacking in skill, lacking in wisdom in your investigation, you're not going to get fired. You're not going to see any disciplinary. You're not going to go to jail. No, they're just going to sweep it right under the rug and just say, well, that happens.

Hey, you know what? Listen, evidence was pointing towards you. We followed the lead until it landed us. And it's just nobody's held accountable. The guess who suffers this person who, you know, because they had tunnel vision, 16 years of his life, his whole life, really, because you never come back from that. Yeah, he was he got out when he was like 32 years old. You know what's so funny is, you know, some. And look, I get it.

you got out. I'm glad. It's, you know, thank God that happened. I think that's rare that they correct a situation like that. A lot of people with, you know, law enforcement would typically say, well, the system worked. No, the system didn't work. That's very rare. You fought like Tuesday and they all keep him in prison. You never relooked at the investigation. It never even considered it. But, you know, the problem with this guy is, you know, listen, he's 30, he gets out when he's what, 32, 33. When they came to tell him, it took he said it took 45 minutes to an hour for the the lawyer that came to see him in prison to convince him that this was really happening like he's like i was sitting there going no no no

he's that they haven't tested it yet she's like no they did test it he's like no it won't be tested till for like a month he goes and then even if they tested and they find out it's not mine and she's like they've already tested it it's not yours he says even if that happened he says they're still going to retry me. I'm not getting let out. And she's like, you are getting let out. You're going to be released tomorrow. You have a court date tomorrow. And he's arguing with her. But that mentality makes so much sense because you were innocent from the start and nobody's hurt you. Right. And then and then you've got nothing about fail. Maybe when I get to the trial, somebody will believe me, right? Because our system has to work. And then you get to that phase and

now you're convicted. Okay, well, maybe the appeal will work. Okay, well, then you lose your pills. Now it's 60 years later. Of course. No, the system's rigged against me. There's no way I'm never getting up. This is mentality. And the trauma that the way it is completely, it's taken as adolescence. It's taken those years that were most crucial in career, everything, family. It's all that remains is the shell of a person who now feels like there is a dark black cloud over them. And there is because all of society is labeled up already a loaner murder. It's, it's really devastating to see. Did you know a third? One third of DNA. Sorry, he's talking at CrimeCon in September, if you want to see him in Orlando. Oh, yeah, Crime Con. Yeah, we're not going

this year. We were there last year. Hey, Croft, Tom, what about that. One third. A third of DNA of exonerations that resulted from DNA. So a third of DNA exoneration involved false confession. And so that's a big amount. We're talking. These people were exonerated by DNA, but there was a false confession. So I don't think people realize you're put in a room, you're being grilled for hours, you're being told you did something, or you're being befriended and told you'll go home if you just give them what they need. You're being without food, restroom rate, it's cold, whatever it may be, whether they're using the re-technique on you, whether they're using, you know, violence to coerce you, false confessions exist. and a third of DNA exonerations prove that. So it's really scary, but no, our system's not perfect.

Investigators are not perfect. There's problems every day, which is why a show like Reasonable Doubt or any other wrongful conviction show, wrongful conviction podcast with Jason Flom, all of those are so necessary to educate our community, educate citizens who are all possible jurors, that you have to really look at the bigger picture here. You have to question everything and hopefully hold

account, you know, more, I feel like now there's a little more accountability, a little more we're getting there with genealogy testing, DNA advancements, all of those things, you know, shows like ours, shows like a podcast out there. I do feel like now prosecutors are being, at least they know, look, you've got to do the best job we possibly can because this can come back and it's not going to look good. The problem is you're also not going to be, you're not going to be criminally charged. Right. It doesn't matter. Listen. But civilly, you know, because you're protected. If you sue, if they sue, it's not you.

They're suing the police department. They're suing the government. So in my particular case, I won't go through the whole thing, but I, you know, do you do federal? No. Oh, man, because state's so much more fair. Well, I mean, I feel. I don't want to mess with federal.

I dappled in the beginning of my career. and it was too much. It was too heavy. I mean, I was young, too. I think when I became an attorney like 26 years old and I'm just like, this is a lot. And of course, I've always done state work and, you know, you get familiar. I think it's really important that an attorney that you hire is familiar with your local courts. It's familiar with the judges, the DAs they're working with.

You know, doesn't, not everything has to be completely adversarial. You want somebody who knows what they're working with. I work in all these different counties here in San Francisco. Alameda and there are counties I just won't go to because people say you know can you represent me over here in this now too conservative for me and I don't want to work I know what I'm going to get in this county that county is going to throw the book at you and it's just exhausty and I'm coming in with these expectations that it's not going to happen because I practice in more liberal county I mean I'm in the Bay area of California right it's a great jury pool to have um but yeah you there are I've thankfully

got to pick and choose. And I've never done public defender work. I've always done private defense work. So which we either also have had the privilege of choosing my cases. I work here in my office building is with people who were formerly public defenders. I bow to them. They are amazing. But, you know, they've had to take cases that they may not want to take or that they don't believe in. And it's really hard. Or they were drained. Right. I was good. So in my case, I got 26 years for bank fraud and my you know the U.S. attorney said, hey, if he'll be interviewed, if he'll be interviewed by Dateline, we'll consider that substantial assistance and will reduce his sentence. And so, okay, I'll be interviewed. Of course. I'm super guilty. Like, what choice do I have? So I was interviewed. And, you know, I was interviewed and they, I was interviewed and they air the program and my lawyer goes, and says hey he was interviewed they aired it you said you'd reduce the sentence and she

says I know the prosecutor said I know it's just not enough but you said you'd consider it substantial assistance I did consider it and it's not so yeah so then it was that thing in writing huh no oh no it's it's I got I got you there so here a second time it comes back and they say you there's a TV show that wants to interview Mr. Cox it's called it's called American greed. And they said, will you be interviewed? If he's interviewed, will you consider it? She says, well, I mean, obviously, I can't promise you anything.

But yes, I will definitely consider it. Between the dateline and this show, obviously, we'll consider it substantial assistant. So she's like, what choice do you? How do can we get it in writing? She says, what choice do you have? You know, you got to do it. Like, I'm already in prison. I got 26 years.

What choice do I have? I say, oh, go screw you. I'll just do my 26 years. No, I'm going to try. So I do it. I've got to hope for the best, right? I go, I do it. They air the show.

They come back. And the prosecutor says, it's just not enough. Wow. So then I'm approached by a company, all mortgage brokers and loan officers in the country have to do, I think it's nine hours of continuing education every year. So three hours of it is ethics and fraud.

So I was approaching. approached by a national company or, you know, a school that teaches those courses and said, we want to write a course on you. He flies up to Atlanta, meets with my U.S. attorney, meets with my attorney, my public defender, who's still representing me for some reason at this point. And she meets with her and she says, absolutely, listen, I'm just trying to pile some stuff up here to present to the judge. I mean, this is absolutely, this will do it.

I do the course. They use it. We get a bunch of letters. we go back to the U.S. attorney and she says, not enough. She said, you know, the problem is, is that these sentencing guidelines are based on someone cooperating where people have been indicted. And Mr. Cox just doesn't have any indictment. So I have no way to really file a Rule 35.

So, I mean, that's just a way to, I can't file one if there's no indictments. And she's like, well, that's not what you've been saying. You said, you would consider it. She said, I did. It's just not enough. So I finally file paperwork, right? I have a guy he files, a guy who was locked up with. He was a lawyer and I was locked up with him.

And he took all my case and he filed. I love that. Oh, it's much better than you. I can't even tell you. Like he's got 22 years. He's a rapid cycling bipolar that believes God is telling them he's preordained to be emperor of the world. Let's keep him behind bars. Yeah. No, he got himself out.

He got. But it didn't... The Laurie Valos of the world, it's like... Oh, my God. But it didn't... They'll believe she killed their kids, for God. But it doesn't seem to affect his legal work, which doesn't say much for your profession. So, he was running a medium-sized law firm out of the prison.

He'd hired a bunch of... Not hired, but he'd trained a bunch of guys to do paperwork for him, write motions. And he wrote more complicated. motions like 2255s, things like that. So he takes all my case. And by the way, I contacted several attorneys on the street. And they all said, you cannot in your district, like this is in California, you're in the, you're in the middle, or northern district of Georgia. They're like, you can't force them to reduce your sentence. There's just no way. He says, no, no, I'm going to get it done. I will not let them do this to you. I mean, he's out there. It's like, okay. So,

So I remember he said, when my legions march upon Washington, it was like, yeah, listen, man, I just want to get some time off. So. Listen, some pretty smart people are pretty out there. Listen, he got. You get you on my. He got seven, he got seven years knocked off my sentence. So in the federal system for every 3,500 2255s that are filed, one.

shows gives you relief one actually provides relief for the inmate not not to get out of jail free but any movement at all is relief so one and i got seven years off but wait there's more so as soon as i get back i end up i'm walking the compound i got i still got like eight nine years to go you know so i'm walking the compound with this guy this old con man and he's he's actually cooperating in his case and against his co-defendants and he keeps telling me that he's not they're not going to reduce his sentence and I'm like well why not you're cooperating

you might even testify in a trial you know and he says well you know they think I've hidden Ponzi scheme or Ponzi money he had a Ponzi scheme for like $100 million dollar sorry $100 million dollar Ponzi scheme he lost 57 million so

I'm like you didn't hide any so don't worry about it we're walking months go by He mentions it a couple times. So if I go, you keep saying that. But they would have to, they'd have to prove you'd hidden the money. He goes, well, here's the problem. He said, can I, I remember he goes, can I trust you? I love the jail conversation to you.

And I go, probably not. And he starts laughing. He goes, uh-ha-ha-ha. And he said, I did hide money. But I gave money to my wife and my brother. And my fear is my wife found out, I know my wife found out I was having an affair. and my fear is she's going to turn the money in to make sure I don't get any time on. And my brother, he's like a good Christian guy.

And if they just ask him, he'll tell him. I was like, oh, really? I was like, well, I'm sure that won't happen. So I had written a memoir for myself. And I wanted to include some of the things that had been said at my resentencing. Because, I mean, they literally brought me back to like Atlanta and back, you know, to be resentenced. So I called my attorney. She was supposed to send me my transcript and never did.

And I said, hey, I need my transcript. And she said, oh, Matt, I'm so sorry. So she said, I'll send it to you. And then I remember she said, so what's going on in there? And I went, nothing. What do you mean? And she says, anything happening? And I went, like, what?

And this was weeks after I'd had that conversation. She said, I don't know, just wondering how you're doing if everything's okay. Is anything happening? And I went, I said, you know what? Listen to this. and I told her and she says well let me look into it maybe that could help you and I go they didn't want to give me anything to begin with you know so oh so like I said that that got like you know the guy the crazy guy had got me seven years off anyway so what happens is a week later

I get called into like let's say you know it's called SIS but you know the lieutenant's office and he says here you got a phone call and I'm like what's going on? So Secret Service agent. He said, I understand that you know where Ron Wilson hid Ponzi scheme money. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I said, I want something in writing that says you will, I will get my sentence reduced. I go, because it's not a lot of money. And I said, I seriously doubt that you guys are going to give him any more time. And I don't see you charging his wife or charging anybody else in their crime. I said, but I do know where there's a little bit of money. And he goes, he said, well, I'll get back with you.

So he ends up sending me, I get him on my email system. He ends up emailing me a copy of a letter from the U.S. attorney saying, if Mr. Cox provides information that leads to the recovery of funds or it leads to indictments, we will consider it substantial assistance. Now, he is, that's the best you're going to get. I said, that's fine. I tell him what happened. He goes and talks to the wife and the brother.

They immediately give up half a million dollars. they indict them both of them get like they got like six months probation like 50 hours of community service like something ridiculous like nothing and then the wilson guy he got six months added onto his sentence so i'm thinking they're not going to give me anything and sure enough they don't give me anything so i get the lawyer to file another 2255 and when we file the 2255 the government's response is mr cox says that he's been cooperating with us and that he's been in communication with the U.S. Attorney's Office and that we agreed to reduce his sentence. We don't even know what Mr. Cox is talking about. We've never heard anything about this. We don't have any type of an agreement with Mr. Cox. We don't. We're not going to reduce this. So I send in one of our filings, we send the letter. See, what they didn't realize was that the Secret Service agent was going to forward me the letter. And, you know, like, it wasn't really a letter to me. It was a letter to them between them, where they said, look, you know, you tell Mr. Cox, we agree, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I send that. And I'm like, this is what he provided me. And sure enough, in the, in it, he provided me, hey, this is what your agreement is with the U.S. Attorney's Office.

Here's a copy of the. Wow. Still, they could have, they fought it. But this. Wilson knew not to trust you and he did. I mean, I don't feel bad for Wilson at all. No, I sleep by the baby. Listen, I have no problem.

I mean, listen, I always tell people the number one thing, and that's the thing, right? In exchange, you've received something in exchange. And, you know, it's so funny when people get up, they want to, there's somebody in trial, they're coming forward from prison. Yeah, this is what he told me. It's like, no, I'm not getting anything in exchange. It's like, well, shit, really? You don't expect anything. Of course I want something in exchange.

Yeah. Well, listen, in the situation that you're in, do you go ahead and say something or do you just do your 20 years? Yeah. Oh, I'm going to do my 20 years. Yeah. No. I didn't have 20 years coming.

How much did you get off more? Five more years. Wow. But we had to fight for it. The guy had to file another 2255. Would they go back? We don't know. Then we send the thing.

He's a good attorney. Right. But here. Here's the thing. That U.S. attorney has blatantly lied. You just told the court. You have no idea. Your name's on the... You sent this. You just lied to the court. Wasn't charred? Yeah. No. No. And we're not. I'm not talking about it wasn't a casual. Oh, it slipped my mind. What are you talking about? This is an entire... You've got a whole motion here. Yeah. actively fighting and lying to the court at the same time. Right.

You know, so when these people, when people think, oh, well, the government wouldn't it? You can trust the government. You can, listen, I had the Secret Service agent telling me, look, I promised you, you will get something. I said, man, cut it out, bro. This isn't my first rodeo. I said, I know for a fact, you can't promise me anything. Your word, no good at all. And he was like, you know, it is.

Look at that. I mean, imagine if you never met that attorney in that, in jail. Are you kidding? Listen, that guy got himself out. He's in Orlando right now. Do you guys say it, Seth? I wrote a book on him about him. It's amazing. He's an amazing individual who is, like most of the people I met in prison who are not, okay, very few of the people I met in prison, who are brilliant. So I met several people that are friends that are brilliant, amazing people, but are just deeply, deeply flawed individual.

You know, they have issues, you know, myself included. We all do. We don't do, but especially, yeah, I mean. But your fault didn't end you up in prison. No, but statistics show, no. I mean, it just depends on how each person deals with trauma. It's very different, right? So you have your adverse childhood, you know, trauma that occurs.

And some people take it one way. I mean, when I was younger, Our middle brother died, and my older brother was so angry by it. It was a very violent sudden that my middle brother was hit by a train and killed. And I was younger, and I took the pain and all the trauma. And I think I turned it for good because I said my situation as far as why I became a lawyer was witnessing the case happened with my parents and how they're trying to sue the railroad. and their attorney was just this gritty people's lawyer who worked so hard and he was always

disheveled and chaotic, but he was just so, such a hard worker, just a lover of people and helping them. And I remember thinking, I want to do that one day. Like, I want to be that resource for people who don't have a voice, right? I'm Latina. I come from like this, you know, lower income community where my parents didn't really have the resource. So to have this gentleman come in and be their voice like I saw how much it meant to our family and I thought I want to do that one day I knew I always wanted to be a lawyer but specifically a people's lawyer right not corporate or anything like that but my oldest brother who has also unfortunately recently passed away sadly he had he struggled in life with drugs alcohol and in the end I think that took a toll

on his heart and that's what took him at the young age of 45 years old but we're two siblings, same pair, same upbringing. But what happens, you know, each adverse childhood experience, it's going to affect everyone differently. And it doesn't mean we're all built the same. And that's what I've come to understand and learn and love about my clients is I see them as my brother, as somebody who is a, was a good person, a loving person, actually one of the best people because let me tell you, those people, they don't judge other people because they're

So they've got their own baggage. They just love on everyone. They won't judge other people like those of us who think we have it all together. And so it's just a matter of and statistics show that people who are going to end up in the criminal justice system have these aces, adverse childhood experiences. And they just deal with it differently. It's dramatically affected that frontal lobe area that wasn't fully developed at a young age. And so all of those things, those childhood experiences you may not think are a big deal, but whether it's divorced, whether it was your mom not being present, constantly working, not having a caretaker,

not being hugged, whatever it may be, that is having an effect on you. And that does later affect whether somebody's going to end up in the criminal justice system or not. So, yeah, we're all a little messed up. But it's just how we've handled that and how we've developed, how we're brain, which is not necessarily our fault, especially when you've experienced trauma before the age of 18. It's really going to predict your future. So if we could look in individuals like that and at a young age, try to get them to help the counseling, the resources, have just a positive role model in their life.

It could really make a difference. But I don't know how I got up on that tangent. Anyway, I don't have much more or longer. I do have to get on a few calls. But it's been fun. Yeah, if you email me your mailing address, I will mail you, you know, mailing address, I will mail you. that book. I and so I and I promise like it's it's not like an urban novel or anything like it's well written it's you know it's it's a good book it's you know I've written several books so

that's great I hope Chris was talking about his book that he's writing on on your podcast I haven't hit the author stage yet though but but I have enjoyed you know Chris's book and a couple letters I got to on our podcast we had a crime and cookie juice for a while Chris and I And we still have it. We're just on hiatus because we're working on another podcast. But we got to have Justin Brooks, who was the California Innocence Project director on. He recently wrote a book that basically, I think it's called, you can't go to president and prison, even though you're innocent. And he talked about a lot of his stories and how they overcame at years later people were getting out of prison.

And it's just, it's great to know that our system can write a wrong. It just takes really long. And in your situation, too, it takes a lot of persevering and the right person to really fight for you. We have a lot of cases right now. Chris and I are specifically working on one case that was on our show years ago where a young man was convicted of shooting his girlfriend, tying his girlfriend up and shooting her in the head and leaving her in a basement. And then going and taking her ATM and taking $300 cash out, okay? It's a beautiful young lovers. there's no there's no issue of he

leaves her for another girl. Nothing else is she's executed her head and tied up and they arrest him. There's a false confession involved coer's false confession. He was charged back at 2011. He has been on home arrest for three years because they are giving him a new trial based on something that happened with a jury form. We always believe in his case believed he was innocent and now they have found a suspect.

A random, a random, you know, like just wanderer. A guy living out of his, he was a semi-truck driver, living out of his truck, kind of like a wilderness man, just lived out of his truck, lived off the land, and he had, they finally tested this cigarette butt they had. And they had ran it through the Codist System, right? That's our national system, if it matched anybody, it didn't. But now, years later, they ran.

it through the genealogy. They used genealogy out of the A. And they found a relative and then they found him. Somebody who had spent time in the area. Now he was living out of state, Montana, the murder occurred in Michigan. While they found him, and this is all

happened. Okay, Matt, in the last month. They found him. They were doing surveillance everything. But in the last month, this is what happened. They interviewed him. He, you know, he says his story. Oh, yeah, I live there whenever they were conducting surveillance. They couldn't help but notice he would never leave any cigarette. He was still

smoker. He would never leave cigarettes behind. He knows now he's under surveillance. Finally, they get a search warrant. Finally. They can't find him. They can't locate him. He's now still living out of a semi truck. They locate the semi. And what do they find? Cigarette. A weapon. Oh. The murder weapon from 2011. And that was found in 23. He still had the gun. And it matched the ballistic. And they arrested him in the middle of transport. He escaped. They found him in a, in a kayak in the middle of the river somewhere. They finally got him back to Michigan. They just charged him. He was just arraigned. And now, guess what? Our boy, the young boyfriend who 10 years ago was charged with our murder,

case hasn't been dismissed yet, right? Because now they were just working together. Yeah. Is your part? That was your part? He was 20 and this guy was like 32. Where the whole time they were arguing he was a, it was a, he was a, he was the lone killer the whole time. And now suddenly they're, no, no, they were working together. And the surveillance video of the guy who used the ATM to get 300 dollars never match our guy, the, the young man.

He was a little, he said, he was just a guy held. So now we're like, but you know what? We laugh about it. but but knowing what our system puts people through and knowing how these investigators and prosecutors don't want to admit they were wrong we are terrified because he's in a case still about dismiss are they going to get this guy to say that he worked with this young kid college kid but from the start nothing added up the way the murder happened all of it but here he was years later here he still is um you know on and finally they just um removed

conditions and home arrest and I think now he's just got an ankle bracelet but this poor kid needs to be exonerated this kid needs to be declared innocent so that he can get his life back so that's a case that Chris and I are currently working on getting a podcast horrific about that is that the likelihood that people think oh well it's it's it's a done deal you don't understand like the there's still a chance he goes to prison like you know we're laughing about it but just said like everything's oh it's it's ridiculous listen people have gone to prison for in less ridiculous situations they like you said they just don't want to say they messed up like what's the thing that look from the start nothing added up uh what was taken

from the home when she was killed a bed sprint and some clothing okay we are talking about and now and the person using the ATM looks like he's wearing one of the articles of clothing and so now we find out he's more of a wilderness man a person like who's homeless living out of his trust It makes more sense, right? But yet here we are still. No, no, it says she was shopping. Right, exactly. So, so that's what we're working on right now.

Hopefully we can get, you know, we can head to Michigan and do some interviews with all parties in fall. Hopefully, the new stuff. I don't know. The criminal defense attorney, I would never want my client doing that, but you never know. So that's what Chris and I are kind of chasing that case right now

because we've been with it since 2018. And we always knew this young man was innocent. But this is what you've got to go through, 2023. New suspect in custody, but it doesn't mean. Do you have, so do you have a podcast? You're saying you're still working with Chris, but I mean, do you have a podcast? Well, Chris and I are always working together because we still have from reasonable doubt, even though we no longer have a television show, it was, that is our passion.

And we did, we do stand behind a lot of the people that were on the show. And so we have a case out of Washington, a case of Evarice Solis, we have the Casey Grombin case out of Michigan. We had Glenn Simmons case he just released. We constantly work with the family still and following up on the cases. I stay in touch with the attorneys on the cases. So Chris and I are always still, things are always happening with us. We did have crime and cookie juice and people can go and check it out on Spotify or wherever you get podcasts. Crime and Cookie Juice podcast where we talk a lot about issues.

how people do end up wrongfully convicted. And we put that on hiatus because now with all these developments in this case that we followed for so many years, we are in the process of making a limited series podcast on just this specific case. So separate from crime and cookie juice. Okay. Well, I was going to say, if you ever need, you know, any, any guest or anything, like I've got, I've been doing this two years. I got tons of them, huns of them. Well, when we start up crime and cookie juice again, absolutely. We love to have some fascinating individuals on to talk about the cases. Russ would be one like we're super interested. That takes

a lot of time and preparation on our behalf because I do like to know what I'm getting into what I'm interviewing someone. So once we can figure out what's happening with this one case that we're really passionate about getting this young man completely declared innocent, then we'll go back to crime and co-dangeries. Yeah. But I also am sitting here in my office. I have my legal practice and I have a full pace load, so it's, there's a lot. It gets a little overwhelming, so. Okay, well, I will let you go. I know you want to wrap it up.

I know you didn't expect it to have much time. So hold on. Give me one second. One second. Do you have any links or anything you want me to put in the description? Sure. You could put my Instagram, which is at Fatima Silva, ESQ. okay well I'll also have we'll also put the link in the description too so hey I appreciate you guys watching do be a favor hit this subscribe button hit the bell so you get notified of videos just like this also leave a comment in the comment section and in the description box we're going to leave Fativa's Instagram link and in the meantime as she comes up with any other links maybe the maybe a link to the the Spotify her her um the podcast

crimes and cookies cookie juice yeah huh crimes and cookie juice we might put that in there i don't know check out the description box i really appreciate you guys watching see you hey this is matt cox and i am going to be interviewing chip williamson he runs a a youtube channel called crime and entertainment chip has a crime story so check this out so the well i mean obviously you know i know you because you interviewed me on your on crime and entertainment correct and you started that like how long like like you're like like a year and a half two years ago I don't remember the exact date on the YouTube because we were doing some audio only before that but I'd say roughly two years ago so um and that started because of you getting arrested for the charge was was murder right

it was murder and possession of weapon during a violent crime yes sir okay so I mean, I'll, I mean, we'll get into that, but I mean, let me, let me start with, like, basically, like, the gyms at the beginning. Yeah. So where, where you were born? I grew up in a town called Darlington, South Carolina, which is really known for not a lot, but the racetrack. That's about all there is there. To do anything, any sort of nightlife or anything like that, you had to go to a neighboring town, Florence. And I grew up there, went to school there, all the way up through graduation, went to technical college to be a welder.

I got my first, I worked in radio for a little bit during that time. And then I got my first welding job. And then not longer after that, I met my wife, or soon-to-be wife. We met there. She had a daughter when we met. Where did you mean her? It was actually at a club in Florence. It was, I remember, like, people older than me.

I always hung out with people older than me. And they used to tell me this club called Murphys that everyone would go to. Well, when I was on the club, I was like 17 and some chains. so not technically legal to be able to get into it, but, you know, almost there. The club had burnt down. So when it got rebuilt, like, just the hype with this club was unbelievable that everybody, you know, it was coming back up.

And so we went, or I've been going every weekend since it opened. Well, she was from about 45 minutes out of town. But, you know, even up there, they knew that this club was supposed to be, you know, really cool. They remodeled a lot. And the weird thing was, like, the first week we was there, a classmate of mine seen her outside. One of the girlfriends that she come down with couldn't get in.

And so they were having issues at the door, and my wife had her ID, so she just standing her kind of waiting for us to play out, and she struck up a conversation with my classmate. So they wound up not even getting in that week. The following week, they come back in, she recognized the girl from the week before and is having a conversation with her.

Well, me knowing the classmate, I'm like, who the hell is she talking to? to, like, this girl's beautiful. Right. And so I waited until they separate and I come straight up to him. I'm like, all right, who was that? And she's like, oh, that's my friend Felicia. She says she thinks she were cute.

And I'm just like, that's all I need to know. Right. So, you know, went over there and run a little game and, you know, as they say, the rest is history. But that spawned our relationship, we were together for about, I think, seven or eight years. Then we got engaged. We got engaged quickly, but we got married after about seven or eight years.

She had a daughter when we met, that was three years old so I've raised her now she's 22 now and then we wound up having a son who's now 13 okay how so where'd you where'd you end up living I mean we stayed there um for the most part until 2010 and um at that point I was working for a company called new core steel and it's a pretty big steel company they're one of the biggest in the world and I was working at a division in Columbia, which was about an hour and a half drive, but it was straight nights. I like just night shift. There was no swing shift.

It was just straight nights, and I hated it, especially after I had my son. Like, it was just, I was gone all the time. Even when you're home, you're just tired because you've been up all night, you know, and it was just not something I really wanted to continue with the career, but I didn't want to leave the company. And then they had an opportunity for the same company, but a different mill in Charleston. So we made the decision to move up. to Charleston, and we moved up here in 2010.

I got lucky because the housing market, you know, it just crashed recently, and so I was able to come in and get houses that were built, you know, a year prior for, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars and get it for by half of what they paid for it. So that worked out, and then we all moved up here to Charleston, and I stayed with the same company, was working at the one up there. The only difference there is you would work four days on and then you would have four days off. So essentially you only worked half the year, but it still would rotate nights to days. So I had some nights mixed in there, but nowhere near as much as the other place that was like straight nights.

Right. And I've worked nights before. Yeah, I hated it. I worked out as a welder's helper for six months one time. And it was the night shift. It was, was it 84 hours a week or something like that? It was straight. it was it was every single day straight you know you got a per diem but it was hell it was it was horrible

like you by the time you drive back home it's just in time to go to sleep wake up make your lunch jump in the car drive an hour and a half back horrible horrible yeah it's awful i mean luckily we didn't have to i mean the plant was close so we didn't have to worry about the per dim but i mean it was nice in the sense that you get your schedule for the whole year so i could look at a paper and i know exactly what days i'm having off so if i wanted to plan a vacation or whatever you know a trip you could plan it inside of those four days and then you really wouldn't have to use vacation unless something just fell on a day where you were scheduled to work that you absolutely had or wanted to go to so it was nice and they were a great company too and it is beneficial

to the part we'll get into a little bit later on uh once a year it's usually around march i think it is they give out what's called a yippy check and it's basically a portion of the profits to every employee now they weren't doing as great obviously we talked about it was kind of the recession at this time, but they were still giving out about 9 to 12,000 per year. And that goes straight into your 401k. And then you get like a portion of that deposited to you. So maybe a thousand. I think it might have been like 2,000 and they tax it.

So you wind up getting like $1,000, something like that. Well, as the economy started getting better, those checks started getting better. So I think one of the last ones that I got was like about $15,000. So, I mean, that's nice to go straight into your 401k. Just out of the blue. Yeah. Well, you know that you're going to get it. They call it yippy day every year.

That check's going to come. So a lot of people look forward for that. They call the yippy day and then Black Day, because right after Black Day is when people that are on the edge of retirement, they make sure they get that yippy check. And then they go on about their business and retire. But, I mean, it was a tough job. But, you know, fortunately, I was able to build up my 401K pretty substantially, which drastically helped out in the situation.

come to find myself in a little bit later on okay so you're so you're living in Charleston everything's going good and what's going on with I mean marriage is good no problem so it was good um I'd probably say if I had to put a pinpoint on like where things started there was a Carolina country music festival that was being held in Myrtle Beach and it was kind of like their version of Woodstock you know There was, I can't remember the people's names. It was Eric Church was going to be there, Lady Anabellum, Cole Swindale, just a lot of the top country singers at the time.

But they would start like middle of the day and then play up until, you know, late at night. And we seen this and we was like, God, this would be a cool concert to go to. So we went down there and I actually went down on Thursday night. Another one of my buddies met me, my wife and a bunch of our other friends came down Friday. but like it was pretty much just a drink fest type concert right and saturday another one of my buddies that came late he was like a certified EMT and he always told me he's like you can't tell people I did that so I can't tell his name but uh he's seeing me and he's like dude he's like you look awful he's like if you slept and I'm like not much and he's like I got something for you

and he goes down to the car he brings back an IV bag and he hooks up the IV bag to me and I'm sitting there in a chair and there's a picture I'll have to see if I can find it and send it to you. But I'm sitting there in the chair. I've got an IV bag hooked to me, and I'm still getting a beer in my hand. And then you can look on the counter behind me, and there's like every liquor bottle you can think of on the counter behind me. So it was a good time.

But now following that, we go home. He gave you the IV to because he felt like you just had too much alcohol in your system. Yeah. But you wanted to keep drinking. Yeah, yeah, I wanted to keep going. What I understand, they do that in Vegas quite often. unbelievable so yeah we finished this weekend

the last concert was on Sunday night and so get up Monday morning head back now mind you I haven't been home since I left work to go down there so I've got a lot of stuff I got to do to get ready you know wash clothes get ready to go to work next morning had to be to work at 6 in the morning

so I'm leaving my house around 5 getting the car heading to work and there's really no other way to put it I just got sleepy and went off the road you always have that sound when you go off the road that you notice

the whole shit you know but it was like I heard that sound for like two seconds and then I heard like a baseball bat hitting a light pole and it was and at that point I could tell that I was airborne and like for a minute there was nothing it was like I was floating and I was just like where did I run off a cliff like what the hell's going on

and it was just bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. They were extending out a road, making it a two lane into a single lane into two lanes on each side. So they were digging out with the backhoe. I hit the area where they stopped for the, I guess for the day or for the time period. And when I went off, I hit like a huge section of concrete that was just there, just sitting there. And when I hit it, it basically sent the car in like a torpedo mode. So I was flipping corner to corner, not end over in. And so finally, the car finally comes to a stop.

It's sitting upside down on another car. And that was the only thing that I could visually see because it was dark. I seen the windshield of that other car. But at the time, I didn't know if I was on the road. So I'm like, I might have just killed somebody. You know, I was really nervous. But I have my seatbelt on. It's probably the only thing that saved me, really.

And I typically don't wear seatbelts, but I did that morning. so I'm trying to brace my below my head so when I undo my seatbelt I don't fall on my neck right as I'm doing that in wiggling it rolls off the truck onto the side so now it's sitting like this with me in the top portion of the driver seat so then I get out the windows are all busted but I had 10 on the windows so they're not like shattered everywhere which was good so I rolled it down and I was able to literally just climb out of the top so I climbed out and I looked like the first thing I seen was like the driver side front wheel was completely gone, wasn't there. And I get up there, I'm kind of sitting around, I'm trying to get my bearings, and this car comes riding by. And he's like,

dude, are you all right? And I said, I think so. He's like, you need me to call somebody? And I was like, I said, yeah, I guess just call an ambulance, you know, maybe something's wrong that I haven't figured out yet, you know, I don't know. And he's like, well, you don't need me to stay, do you? I was like, nah, I don't know if he was drunk or what he was, but I was just like, no, go ahead, just calling for me, if you don't mind, because I didn't know where my phone was. So I was trying to pick out, like, the best place to hop down, because I was like, I don't want to lift through this wreck, hop down, and that car move again and follow me. So I got down, I went, my phone was actually in my pocket.

I never took it out, so I knew where that was. I walked up to this house, and the house was real distinctive. It was one of those houses where the whole house looked like a roof, and it come all the way down to almost like mid you know mid level but it was it was a very odd built house and i remember like looking at it as i walked up like wow this is a crazy looking house so i knocked him the door and the dude comes and he's like yeah and i'm like uh man i just had an accident out here with your pickup truck and he's like huh i said i landed on top of your pickup truck and he's like man that's my wife's truck she's had that thing since high school and i'm like well now my bad

bro and he just shuts the door just shut it he didn't say you okay you want to drink anything i can do for you you know a cold rag nothing he just shut the door and walked away so i'm like all right guess he's going back to bed so i was waiting the ambulance got there looking around it's like you know where's the driver and i'm like i'm the driver and i'm like where's the passenger i'm like there wasn't any passengers i know of it was just me i guess they couldn't believe that that wreck i was walking around because I'll show you some pictures of this wreck it's insane like every part of the car is dented in moonroof blown out front bumper completely gone tire completely gone I mean it was a mess like even when we went later on to pick it up from the record a guy asked how the driver was

and I was like you're looking at him he's like I figured you'd have been gone but this started a situation that I had to deal with my back because I really did get hurt it wasn't something that was hurt like right off the bat but it did develop me a lot of back problems that I still deal with. Did you go to the hospital? Yeah. I went to the hospital. I called, after I was waiting when he shut the door on me, I called my wife and let her

know. Then I called my job and obviously let them know that I wouldn't be coming in. And the ambulance got there and my wife was on the way. So by the time she got there, it looked a lot worse because they're transporting me to the hospital. So they've got me on a board. They've got tape wrapped around my head. They've got a neck brace on.

I mean, I'm just, I looked like. I'm, you know, in bad shape. And she's panicking. She's, oh, my God. And I'm just like, no, it's cool. They're just, it's just precaution. Like, I was literally just standing up two minutes ago. So we go to the emergency room and they run tests and x-rays and the guy comes back out.

And he's like, I don't know what your religion is or who you pray to. He's like, but just keep it up. It's working. I was like, all right. But then like a week later, I started, which I knew I was going to be sore the next couple days anyway. That's always how wrecks are. Yeah.

And I started developing some pain in my lower back. And it's like my L4, L5, L5, and S1 are just really, really damaged back there. And since then, I've been using different techniques to try to help it, different shots, cortisone shots, I mean, different things. They're saying it's not imperative enough to go in and require surgery to do it because then you're going to have a permanent discomfort for the rest of your life. But if we can manage it to where you can, you know, get by without having it. having to do it, it's better this way. So those are the steps I've been following since then.

But that particular incident kind of started a chain reaction because I was out of work for a little while. The job that I had got filled. I still had a job in the company, but the particular job that I had that time got filled. So I had to come back and take another job, which wasn't as desirable because there's, I mean, this plant's got like five different divisions in the plant. I mean, there's hundreds of jobs. But the one that I had originally, I really, really liked. And I wound up having to go to another one. And that was kind of, I would say, what started the ball rolling on problems.

And then what really kicked it into high gear was I had a friend of mine. He lived two houses down from me. This is a community, much like, you know, the one we're in. Everybody's real close-knit. And we had a group of friends that would get together on the weekends. And our kind of tradition was we would go on Fridays to a Mexican restaurant, hang out for a little bit, then go back to one of our houses in the group, and just hang out in the garage and chill out, you know.

Well, this one particular Friday, I could tell that the guy and his wife wasn't getting along, which, I mean, I ain't going to say that was unusual, but they didn't do it a lot to the point you go to say, oh, well, there they go again. Yeah, yeah. But, I mean, great dude. Anytime I'd ever met him, always offered, you know, to bring something

or, you know, great mood, wife, two kids, good job, off on Fridays, had a Harley bike boat drove Mercedes like if you were to say give me a life as a 40-something year old man that's the guy's life you won't right and so we leave there we go to a friend's house we're all sitting around you could tell he was probably drank you know one or two more drinks than usual and my wife calls me she's actually at another friend of ours house that's like right around the corner and she's like hey come over here and you know hang out with us for a little bit so I was like, all right. So I told everybody there by, literally, like, down the street to the right.

That's where they live at. So I'm there maybe 15, 20 minutes. We're talking. And then all of a sudden, you hear the scream. But we have a lot of kids in our neighborhood, so we weren't sure if it was kids playing or whatever because it wasn't super late, maybe 10 o'clock. And then the more you heard it, you could tell it was like it was a serious style scream, like something was wrong.

And I remember real, real vividly because the, you know, the song Johnny Cash Hurt was playing on the radio. So it was like, it kind of gave it more eerier feeling than normal because I remember thinking like God, and every time I hear that song, I think about this. But so we go out, and there's only from that guy's house we were at, there's only like three houses up entrance to the neighborhood, but the first house is the couple that I was referring to.

So it's only like a two-house gap between them and their house. So I go running up, and there's this woman rolling around in the ground, just screaming, screaming to the top of her long. can't stop if she does stop and she takes a breath and start screaming again is this your buddy's wife yes i didn't know it at the time i for whatever reason the guy who housed that i was with he went straight in the house i don't know what prompted him to do that but i thought because there was a car stopped i think just trying to figure out what was going on i was thinking maybe there was a domestic something guy hit a girl she's rolling around in the ground something like that so i go

to the girl in the ground once i roll her over i realize this the couple of that we were with at the Mexican restaurant. But she's already in like night clothes. I just left. They were in, you know, street clothes. And I was just like, what the hell is going on? And she's like, he did it. He shot himself.

And I was like, who? And she said his name. And I was like, oh, so I went, go running in the house. And the way his house was set up, you come in, you had a dining room to the left, open area living room to the right. And then kitchen was like open to the dining room. And I've seen a pair of feet like hanging out. And when I cut the corner, the other friend of me,

mine whose house we were at, you know, before, when all this happened, he was already at his head, he had his shirt off. He had, like, wrapped it around his head. And at the end of the day, what had happened was the guy put a gun on his mouth and he committed suicide. And Matt, when I tell you, this was the worst thing I had ever seen in my life. Like, I'd never seen nothing like it before. I've been with, I've been with family members that are older and passed away. So I've seen death and I've seen people die, but that was, that's different. Like, this was, it was just, I still, I get more nightmares about that than I do anything that I've went through since then. And I think that was just something that kind of started me on a downward

spiral. I'd say probably a depression too. And it led to me and my wife kind of arguing a great deal. He's been known to cure insecurity just with his laugh. His organ donation card lists his charisma. His smile is so contagious. Vaccine. have been created for it. He is the most interesting man in the world. I don't typically commit crime, but when I do, it's bank fraud. Stay greedy, my friends.

Support the channel. Join Matthew Cox's Patreon. You didn't know, you knew the couple you'd had dinner with, but you weren't, like, were they part of your group? Yeah, I'd only recently met him, I'd say probably like two months. So we hadn't known each other, you know, like I said, years and years. but the he was just one of people that as soon as he come in he was going to click with whatever group he was with you know he's just so what did you find out happen he just walked in there

pulled the fucking gun like it well remember i told you i could tell they were arguing at the dinner and from what i know they had some arguments earlier on in the dinner um and there was a lot of stuff i guess behind the scenes that people didn't know and it boiled over that night and it was a situation where he had apparently threatened to do this a couple times. And so it was, you know, probably thought it was that again, but this time he actually went through with it. But this, I mean, he had never said that around any of the guys that had been with them, you know, hey, I'm battling, I'm struggling, you know, that was never done. So obviously, you hear that, you're thinking, well, he's probably doing that to control

the woman. Right. Which is, you know, sadly, some people do that, you know, they'll threaten that to keep a woman under control. But like, if I had had to put money on any of my friends doing it, he would have been the last one to do it. Because, I mean, like I said, he had, on the surface, he had everything you wanted for a guy at his age. So, okay, so that slowly started leading to, you know,

you and your wife start having problems. Like, what are those arguments over? At the time, drinking, I just didn't want to be home. I felt like if I was home, I was just going to sit there and be miserable. And it was, you know, and a lot of it was my fault.

I'll square the shoulders on a lot of it, you know, put the blame on my shoulders. You know, we had had issues from before, not I shouldn't say issues, but we had petty fights about stuff, but like, you know how women are. Sometimes they will come back up later on. And I'm not that type of guy like,

when we put a problem or an issue to bed, I don't want to bring it up again in six months. Yeah, yeah. You know, and sometimes that would happen. And it was just like, it was getting to the point to where I told my wife, I was like, you know what, we need a break. And I thought it was the right thing to do.

I didn't say, you know, it's over, you know, don't ever want to see you again. I eventually led to that while we were going to get a divorce. But at first, we was just like, hey, we need a break. We need to separate. And once we separated, I let her stay in the house that we were living at. And I moved into someone's house that was still in the neighborhood that was around the corner. And I told him, I was like, or told her, I was like, look, I said, if you start seeing, somebody like you've got to let me know because i'm not going to be paying the bills at this house

and another dude coming over sitting on my couch and watching ESPN on my tv you know what i'm saying so eventually that did start to happen she did meet somebody and i figured she would meet somebody i mean my wife's a great chick you know and i put she's got her uh she went and got her master she just recently got her doctorate so like she's very smart um and she brings a lot to the table so i knew if she started to be actively looking it would not take long right for someone to jump on that. So I didn't even have a problem with the guy, you know, doing that. If I would have been in his situation, I would have jumped at the chance, too.

So when this happened, this is around, this is in 2017. The guy's suicide was in like August, July, August. This is around November when she tells me that, you know, she met someone. And I'm just like, all right, well, remember the transition? I told you, you know, you got to slide on out, wherever goes up to you. And November the 1st, it was a day after Halloween, I remember. remember we went over there and took my son trick-or-treating and then the next day she moved out to another house the way our neighborhood is set up you got like five different communities so you have mine

which is like old rice then you have you know two or three more all the way back i mean it goes from miles yeah that's like this one you saw all the different subdivisions yeah all located in one massive community right and that's exactly what we are and she moved in one about three subdivisions back and i mean i broke her balls for a little bit about them like you couldn't have moved like you know 10 minutes away you know something like that and now i got a bump into you at publics or something but you know it still wasn't a hateful it wasn't like we hated each other and you know that was the situation i mean she was doing her thing she met the guy the guy moved in i was doing my thing um and it was what it was we were going to get a divorce did you know the guy no i had no

i had no idea who he was he was not from around here he had recently moved here and uh so we were going forward with everything we agreed we were going to get a a divorce, partly because I could give her some of my money from my 401K, and I was actually, it was kind of a workaround for me. I was going to pull more out, agree to pull more out than what she wanted, and then she was going to give it back to me. Right. So if she only wanted to pay the fees. Right. You don't have to pay the fees and all that. It was a way for me to kind to get an early withdrawal, basically, a little workaround. So if the IRS is listening, that didn't happen, so we're good. That's fine. No harm, no foul. So that was a plan. So I hired,

hired a divorce attorney and we just really didn't talk until around the month of December we were trying to figure out like how we were going to do things with the kids and you know who was going to go where what was going to go what and we're just talking I'm like you know how's things going with you and she's like eh not too good this that and the other and you know I was kind of you know messing with her I was like I told you you know you're going to have a hard time trying to find somebody that's going to put up with all your shit you know and uh slowly but surely we started kind of talking again. But I think we both weren't sure

if it was something we wanted to restart, but there was definitely still love there. And that's, that was normal. Yeah, that's very common. Yeah. I was actually saying that to Connor. I was like, you know, guys will like, you can have a breakup and then you'll,

it's funny, even couples that are at each other's throat, you still, every couple of weeks, you might get that phone call like, can you come over? You know, you're like, look yeah you come over you stay the night you get up and leave the next morning next thing you know two weeks later even though you're seeing somebody else you know there's that slight overlap until you get to a point where you're like one of the two people says yeah we're not doing this anymore yeah i'm with this person this is over like but there's usually that kind of you know

or even sometimes it's it's just a matter of this person has been in your life so long things happen and you need somebody to tell yeah you know so you tell the person that you were closest to even though it's not working out Yeah, and that was a lot with me and her. Like, you know, we've had a lot of people pass away in her family. Her dad, who was hugely important in her life, he passed away. And that was like really put a number on her later on her aunt, suddenly, shockingly died.

She had a brain tumor. And their family structure, she was only just a couple years older than my wife. So even though that was her aunt, they were more like sisters because the time gap wasn't, or age gap wasn't very huge. They both had daughters that were the same age. So, you know, we've been through a lot together, and I think to your point, that's exactly what it was, and sometimes, you know, you just need family.

Yeah. And people that, you know, you know your backstory and aren't going to judge you for it and, you know, things that happen. And I think that was a lot of what led us back together because there was no doubt we loved each other. It was just to a point to where it was becoming that Pam and Tommy relationship. Right. And what we kind of was seen,

each other on and off, and that lasted through Christmas. We seen each other a little bit through Christmas, and fast forward to, that kind of went off and on for the next couple months. Then we got to Easter, and at this point, the guy was living with her at her home. He had then moved out. I think in January, he left to go back home and was going to stay home. I'm not sure what happened and home for him, I think was Pennsylvania, I think. but something happened and he didn't wind up staying and he came back

but when he come back he didn't live there now he would still come but he didn't live there and when it got to around Easter I was just like look you know if we're going to do this let's do it let's give it a shot let's put everything we got into it because it's probably be like one done if we don't get it this time you know it's probably time to push the chips in I was like but he's going to have to go you're going to have to tell him you know you're coming back here just tell him you know and That was kind of what set everything in motion because we were together for a whole weekend. We went to her moms for Easter weekend.

We went to Myrtle Beach, stayed up there for like four days. And then we come back on a Thursday, come back on a Friday, Friday. And my son had a soccer game the next day on a Saturday. And I was like, all right, are you going to tell them, you know, tonight? Everything, what was going on? And she's like, yeah, I'll tell them. So at the soccer game, I'm sitting there. comes up, and I was like, well, how do you take it?

He's like, he didn't take it. She said he came in, said his head was killing him, he went straight to bed. Now, this guy was a former vet, and he had diagnosed PTSD. So some of the meds that he was on, when he would come home, he would take him and just pass right out. Right. And I don't know all the names of the meds and stuff that he was on, but that's generally what would happen. So she said, all right, I'm going to tell him today. And I was like, okay, let me know what's going on.

You know, just keep me in the loop, if you need me, call me. Let's fast forwards to, I'd say probably about 6 o'clock. She said she told him and he was pissed and he left and he grabbed his dog. He had a service dog and she's like, but I know he's not gone because he still got to come back to get all of his stuff. And I'm like, all right, well, you might better go back there because if he sees you here, then he's really going to get pissed. And so this is probably like 8 or 9 o'clock. I went some friends of mine around the corner. The same guy, we're going to circle back around to the same guy that I was with the night that my friend Chattison.

he calls me and he knew what was going on he knew the situation because he's a good friend of mine he knew that we had split up then he knew we were about to reconcile but he also knew about the other guy and he called me and he was like hey where you at and I said I'm at a friend of mine's around a corner he knew the guy's name was Nate and he said well if you come by here and you see the guys I don't really remember what I want to say his name but he's like if you see someone's those truck here you know don't stop and I'm like all right well you want to give me a little bit more on that you know what's going on and he said well they come riding by and he said I went up to the car and it was like you know hey guys what's going on and he said I could tell

your wife was visibly shaking and he said I asked him what's up and he said oh we're I'm just looking for chip because when I find him I'm a fucking killing now I didn't know this that all this was going on so I'm trying to call her phone to figure out what's happening her phone's going straight to voicemail because I guess when he came back things got violent he was punching holes in the wall he broke her phone apparently roughed her up a little bit but i had no way to find all this out because her phone was smashed so later on he calls me again and he said hey i'm going to have uh him at my house he said if you come by here it's just going to be him but he's like i'm going to try to talk figure out what's going on but if you ride

by here you know just don't stop i don't want anything going on at my house i'm like all right you know that's fine so i go back to my house i'm just sitting there i think i was watching like a UFC or something on TV and my daughter calls me she worked he knows where you live though right yeah yeah he knows he knew but my car wasn't at my house when they were looking for me I wasn't home oh okay so had I been home when he was making her drive around looking for me probably would have stopped by and things would have maybe who knows how they went at that point in time but by the time you know I get home this is this is probably like 1230 because it's like the main event of the UFC's coming on right then which is why I went to my

my house to watch it so it's probably at least 12.31 o'clock because they come on pretty late East Coast time. And I talked to my daughter. She worked at the Mexican restaurant that I was talking about earlier. I called her. I said, when you get home, let me know your mom's okay. So she gets home and then she calls me from my daughter's phone. She's like, yeah, she's like he got upset, but she said Jamie got him. He's at Jamie's house. You know, don't worry about it. He's going to be staying there. And so I'm thinking, all right, well, he's going to be staying there. They're good. I'm good. So I'm in bed watching the UFC, and then all of a sudden I get a text, but it's from his phone.

And he said, hey, are you home? And I text back. I said, yeah, I'm home. And he's like, can me and you talk? And I was like, yeah, about what? And he was like, man, he said, I don't want no drama. I don't want no BS. He said, but I feel like I'm being lied to on certain situations.

And he said, I feel like you'll tell me the truth. And he's like, if you want to, we can meet at Jamie's house. which was my friend right down the street and I was like okay that's fine and so my my thinking is here is if I can diffuse this situation because obviously he's pissed because he thinks this has been going on while he's there that he wasn't privy to it been going on so I'm a pretty smooth talking and I'm thinking I can diffuse this yeah and just think hey maybe she just wants to come back on so we go down there and that's exactly what it was he was just saying you know I want to know how long you guys have been talking you know I was like what to start with that's still

my wife so it's really none of your business how long we've been talking but to answer your question like this just we just decided this both recently and so it would go from like high tension to back to being nothing at all to i'd say fast forward two hours and it was basically like three guys sitting in a garage talking right just with weird extenuating circumstances right but we go to leave and this is now this is probably like two 30 about a time we get together there we're talking probably 4.30, the guy whose house we were at was like, all right, I'm fixing to shut it down. He's like, if you want to stay here, you can stay here. He said, or you get Chip to run you home, whatever you want to do.

And I looked at him and he was like, he said, do you care, you know, running me home? I was like, no, I don't care. So we shut the garage. And then he's like, you know, man, I don't know if I want to go home. He said, I know if we go home. We're going to start fighting. And my house from his house is like six houses down the other way. And he said, do you care if we go to your house?

I'm like, no, I don't care. Because at this point, I didn't perceive this guy as a threat. Right. I'm not going to say we were friends, but, you know, I just didn't perceive him as of being violent. So we go and we pull in. During the time we were talking in the garage, the story I just referenced you about the guy to commit a suicide came up. Well, I don't know if he was trying to match the story or, you know, to say something similar, but he held up his wrist and he was talking about a bracelet that he had. He's like, do you know why I wear this?

And I'm thinking, no, I would not know why you wear that. I said no, and he told me the story of a guy that he was in service with. He was in the Army, that they were together in combat, and the guy got shot in the head. He was trying to save him, but whatever he did wasn't the proper protocol, and they kicked him out of the Army for it, whatever they call you that. They got a name for it when they... Not dishonorably.

Dishonorably charged? I think maybe dishonorably charged, dishonorably discharged, maybe that might be what it is. But in actuality, that wasn't even true. I didn't find out later, it was partly true. I didn't find out later to he was never actually in like battle. He was intelligence. He sent a guy into somewhere with his intelligence that got that individual killed, which was what got him booted out, which was why he was diagnosed with PTSD because it did bother him, which was also the reason

why right before him and my wife met, he had just gotten out of a mental institution in Alabama, which she didn't know until much, much later in the relationship. So that was the correlation, but he put it like he was there himself. When in actuality, he was kind of behind the scenes. It was still his fault, and you could tell that it bothered him, like he was crying. He cried in the car. So at that point, I'm really thinking this dude just maybe just needs somebody to talk to. You know, now he's losing, you know, what he thought was his relationship.

and, you know, maybe he just needs someone to talk to. So we go in my house, you know, looking around, just talking different things. This is probably four o'clockish somewhere along in that neighborhood. You know, we each did a shot. We're talking about different things and we get them to subject to tattoos. And we were talking about another one of my friends and moms. He's like, well, she's always said, you know, crappy things about people with tattoos. He's like, you're covered in them.

Does she ever say anything to you? And I was like, no, she ain't ever said nothing to me. I said I got them all over and I kind of pulled down my shirt slightly and he's seen this one on my chest and when he's seen it he reached at the bottom of my shirt and pulled my shirt up to see it

and when he did he noticed if you see right here I got an open heart surgery scar right there okay when he seen that scar he was like damn he's like what happened there and I said I had open heart surgery my senior year in high school and he's like you know

just you had a heart attack and I was like no I said it was something that they knew from birth It was a, they called it a VSD, basically a hole in the heart. I said, but my senior year, they were able to tell that the hole was bigger than what they thought. And that if it was going to be repaired, better to be repaired then up under my mom's insurance than to do it later on, you know, later on life where the complications might be worse. Right. So senior in high school, I missed half my year for getting the heart surgery done.

And when he's seen that, he was kind of like, you could just tell his whole demeanor kind of just changed. And you know how when people, especially when they've had too much to drink, they do that. shit where they like bro hug you know and kind of like bear hug you and pick you up so he'd done that and I didn't think much of it at the time that he did I just you know I didn't never been around the guy I didn't know how he could hold his alcohol I didn't know how much he had to drink I know he was drinking at the garage and then we got back to my house he had two land shark beers and then we shared a shot law enforcement often questions him not because he suspected of a crime but because they find him fascinating he is the most interesting

man in the world. I don't typically commit crime, but when I do, it's bank fraud. Stay greedy, my friends. Support the channel. Join Matthew Cox's Patreon. So he goes to the bathroom, and I kind of move to where my stove is. Now, my kitchen is set up basically like an L. So you have the refrigerator here and a hallway here.

After refrigerator, and you got the stove, and it curves back around in the sink. So it's very tight and confined. I'm sitting up against the stove, just, you know, chilling, waiting on him to get out. I actually think I was responding to some messages throughout the night. I even text my wife from my son's phone. I'm just like, hey, everything's good. You know, he's actually with me. We're just talking, trying to make sure everything's good before I bring him back over there.

He comes out of the kitchen or out of the bathroom, into the kitchen. He comes straight up to me, and the first thing he does is, like, grabs me and jacks me up. So, of course, like, my ass goes up onto the stove. I'm trying to figure out what, like, what the hell's going on? And he's like, I'm going to fucking kill you. And I'm just like, I thought he was joking for a minute, but then, like, the more I could feel his hand, and I seen that look in his eyes, I was like, all right, this dude's not joking.

So I was able to get down off the stove. He tries to, like, knee me, bring up his knee, so I turn my body a little bit. He still got me slightly, but he didn't really get at full effect. And I told him, I was like, dude, if you don't get off of me, I'm going to shoot you. And he goes back, he cocks back his right. hand and and I'll jump back one second whenever he pulled up that shirt to see that scar he had to see that I was I had a gun on me because that's where it was right and I was a CWP carrier I had been for years I had own guns since I was 18 years old so it was normal for me to have a gun on me because

I know that was the first thing was like why did you have a gun I'm a CWP holder I always have a right I'd had it for years and I've been pulled over with that same gun with those numbers ran so there's documentation that that's the gun that I carry around well when he's swings he's holding me with his left he's swinging with his right he kind of like clips my chin so he doesn't hit it fully so as his body's turning he lets go with his hand so at that point i stepped back into the corner literally in a corner and he's already coming back at me and i pulled out and i shot i thought it was twice turns out it was three times i didn't learn that until later but like it's and that's a guy thing you know guys will talk junk to each other

you know, maybe via text message or maybe in face-to-face. But when you put hands on somebody, like that's another level. And then I don't know this guy really like that. And, you know, with the situation that he just talked about, I obviously know he's got some things going on mentally. He is getting told that, you know, we're getting back together. And then he tells me he's going to kill me. I've got to take him at his word.

Yeah. Well, and he's in your house. Yeah. It's a bad situation. He's drinking. He's attacking you. And the, the, what I don't, what I, I always find, so whenever you hear about like a police shooting or they wrestled and people are like, well, they didn't have to shoot him. Well, wait a minute.

The officers armed. So you think, oh, he could have just wrestled with him. No, there's a gun there. That can go so badly, so quickly that the moment that person says, hey, I'm going to, I'm going to fight you and I have a gun. I've got to pull my gun because the chances that you could get the gun and kill me. you're the one who's being aggressive means that I have to stop the situation immediately. I can't get into a, it's not like we can get into a wrestling match and we're going to break it apart.

You're attacking me. I have a gun. I could get shot with my own gun. If anybody's getting shot and I've got a gun, it's going to be you. You're attacking me. That's the whole stand your ground. Yeah. Stand your ground, Castle law.

Absolutely. And you're in my house. Like, what do you, like every single step of this situation is just not in his favor. Exactly. And he's already telling somebody. prior to driving around looking for him

telling people I'm going to kill him you thought you defuse the situation goes to your house and attacks you like and that was exactly

what you just said because I the surgery I mentioned earlier about the back issues the surgeries that I was having at the time

they would go in and they would basically burn the nerve endings away from the spine and it would hurt for a couple weeks but then after that

you would have pretty good pain relief for about six to eight months because these nerve endings will reattach themselves. And I just had this done about a week before this happening. So my mobility was already, like, very limited in this. And plus, you know, this was a big dude. Like he's former military.

I mean, he was a big guy. So it was really I didn't have any choice because it was like, when he's telling me that, I got to take him at his word. And at that point, like the first thing in my head was like, one of us ain't coming out of his kitchen. Right. And that was just it. And as soon as I shot him,

he dropped I was just you know the first instinct was like what the fuck just happened so I put the gun down picked up the phone

immediately called 911 I didn't touch him I didn't move anything I didn't mess with anything because at my point in my mind I haven't done anything wrong right I've defended myself in my house

now the 911 call which there's portions of it available online has become a huge point of contention because when I was on the phone the first thing that I said was I had a friend of

mine in my house, he started hitting me, I had no choice, I had to shoot him. The friend of mine thing got blown real out of proportion because people was like, well, they weren't friends and I'm just like, I didn't have time to tell the whole fucking story to the 911 one operator. I'd sum it up. Yeah, I'm like,

all right, well, he's dying, but wait a minute, let me tell you this long story for 20 minutes. I just, it was the first thing that I could think of to get her to there because it wasn't a robber. I didn't want to think he was robbing me. Right. But that was the first thing that I said. Yeah, maybe not the best choice of words, but you try being in this situation and coming up with a better explanation to get him there.

My main thing is I just wanted him to get there. Yeah. And so I talked to the 911 operator, and she's like, you know, how is he? This, that, and the other. Is he breathing? Is he talking? Is he moving? And I'm telling her what he was doing.

He never talked. He was making some noises. And she was like, you know, do you have a towel nearby? And I said, yeah, there's one of my bathroom. She said, can you go get the towel and place it over the wounds? I run to the bathroom. I yanked the towel. I yanked the towel so hard off the bathroom.

a wall that it brings the whole damn bracket with it. You know, the little bracket to hang your towel. So I go back, I pull up his shirt, and I see two small wounds that looks like,

it looks like if you were to take a pencil and just stab through paper, very, very small. Right. And I put the towel over that and I hold it until the police get there. Sit there and I'm on, she's like, you know,

is the door unlocked? I said, yeah, she's like, you know, make sure the gun's unloaded, out of sight. You don't want to have that on you when the cops get there. I'm like, it's on the counter. It's unloaded.

I was like, the door's, unlocked they can just come on in whatever they know whatever they want to do and she said okay the officer's there she said we need you to go outside with your hands up so i go outside hands up they cuffed me but he doesn't say i'm under arrest he just said we got to see what's going on so he cuffs me puts me in the car he was the first officer on the scene so he goes in and checks everything out then there's another officer and then cops just keep coming keep coming and you'd imagine if something out like that happens in one of these streets and all these streets are filled with cops.

Every neighbor's, because at this point it's 6.30, 7 in the morning. Every neighbor's like looking out the window, what the hell is going on. I'm sitting out there in a cop car in the back seat. There's ambulances there now. There's like the fire EMS is there now. I mean, it's the whole street is pat. And I'm just sitting there waiting and I see him and finally bring him out and they get in the ambulance. They leave.

Still nobody's coming to me for anything. Finally, a female cop comes back and she reads me my rights and asked me if I'm You know, wants to answer any questions, and I told her no, not without a lawyer. So that was that part, so I knew they couldn't ask me anything else. I'd say probably another hour goes by, and I'm still in there, and I'm kind of nodding to one of the cops, like, telling him to come here. And he's like, yeah, and I was like, dude, I got to go to the bathroom. And he's like, I don't know what to tell you.

You're going to have to hold it. And I was like, no, I don't know what to tell you. Like, there's no holding. It's about to happen. It can happen in this car, in this yard or in the house, but, like, I got to go. So they let me go, or they took me out, they took me upstairs into my house. And they was like, you know, there's somewhere here you can change clothes. And I'm like, yeah, this is my house.

And so everything enters my house. So we go upstairs, change clothes. They take all the clothes that I have on that day, shirt, pants, boots, all that stuff, which is, I guess, common. And I changed clothes, and he asked me if there's anywhere I can go until everything gets resolved. And I'm like, well, yeah, by this time, I mean, people that I knew in that neighborhood were like sitting around the house and golf cars. just trying to figure out what the hell was going on. So I go and I pick one of them.

I'm like, hey, I'm going to go hang out at your house until they finish. And he's like, all right. So I told him what the address was. And we go over there and it's like probably eight in the morning, nine in the morning at this point. You know, I'm still haven't been to bed yet. I mean, just, you know, adrenaline is still through the roof. And I'm waiting. And he pulls back up.

One of the detectives pulls back up. And he's like, are you ready to answer some questions for us? And I was like, well, no. Like I said, not without a lawyer. And he's like, well, who's your lawyer? Well, at the time, I was using my divorce. lawyer who was also a former cop so i told him his name and he's like well i know him he's like we'll get together monday morning and uh you know we'll give you some questions to answer and we'll go

through that he says so just look to get with him sometime monday morning to answer our question and i don't know if you're going to come in or write a statement or what i'm like okay so i said i'm free to go back home and they said yeah you're free to go and i was like you know what about you know is there any mess and he's like he said i don't think there's much he said but that's not on us to clean up he said that's on you because at all they do is he's handle the crime scene and then they leave it doesn't matter what's left that's not that is not their responsibility to clean up well by this time somebody had already called my mom my mom lives about two hours away so she's there when i come back obviously she's hysterical and when we went in the

house there really wasn't a lot there like there was very very little blood so much to the fact if she took like two paper towels and just wiped the floor and then it was done that was it so it's not like on TV when you see somebody shoot somebody and the whole wall gets covering in blood. It was not like that at all. Matter of fact, the whole situation while I was there, I'd never seen blood at all. So the day goes by, get up Monday morning. I think I might have slept a couple hours at night. It was still just everything. We just still 100 miles an hour. So I go to my lawyer's office. We write a statement. We send it to them. They obviously want to talk to my wife. she goes she gives a statement then on Wednesday

I see my lawyer call him and he's like hey I got some bad news I'm like what and he's like they're charging you a murder and I was like why and he was like I don't know did you ever think that was coming no especially not after they let me go like that morning I figured I was probably going to have to go to jail but once they figured out what happened everything happened especially with you know all the proof there

they would let me go that was what I was was thinking but then when they didn't even take me to jail you thought you never I'm never doing yeah this is this is they realize what happened yeah this is clear cut because the way everything happened in that kitchen I'll get into this a little bit more a little bit but like everything was backed up just by the way stuff happened so two two out of the three shots went through and through one of them hit my refrigerator and then bounced and hit a wall the other one hit uh like a 24 pack of water that was sitting beside refrigerator the other one struck that so what that did was that proved that I said I was standing in the corner right it proved that I was

standing in the corner otherwise you can't get that indentation on that refrigerator to bounce over here if you're anywhere else but where I told you also a shell casing was recovered in the sink which when you're in that corner showcasing or sinks to the right shell casings are ejected to the right and back so it's everything was lining up that way and trust me I did not have the wherewithal at that time to go start checking all this stuff out right you know measuring stuff and looking for stuff. It was just, I didn't need to lie. I didn't need to tell anything that didn't happen because everything was the truth.

And it was backed up by what I said. Right. So he tells me they're going to do that. And I'm just like, dude, you know, I don't really know about you handling this. I was like, no disrespect. But like if you handled a case like this before and he's like, well, I've handled a few. He's like, but if you want to look for other options, he's like, that's on you. He's like, you know, I won't get mad or upset.

He's like, this is the one case that you got to deal with. So I started hanging up to phone and calling people that I know around the area, and I'm like, who's the best attorney for this? And I keep hearing one name over and over and over again, Andy Savage. Even from towns where I grew up in in Darlington calling guys there, you know, big, big shot lawyers, Andy Savage, Andy Savage, Andy Savage. I hear that name probably 10 times.

I don't think I heard a different name when I was telling them what was going on. So at this point, it's late in the day on Tuesday. They want me to turn myself in on Wednesday. So it's like, we're talking less than 24 hours here. I've got to turn myself into jail. So I called his, they were closed, but you have like a 1-800 number, whatever you can leave a message and it gets checked.

And if it's important enough, then they contact him. Left a message told him what was going on. He calls me, kind of gets a little gist of it. He said, I don't want to know everything. He said, just give me the broad strokes. When are you supposed to be turning yourself in? I told him, he said, be at my office at 6.30 tomorrow morning. I was like, all right.

So me, my wife, my mom, they carry me up there, 6.30, and we basically break down the story. Kind of just at this point from what we knew, you know, told him everything. And he was like, why are we here? And I was like, your guess is as good as mine, bro. I don't know. Like, you know, they can't even, they can't even paint this as a jealousy thing because he wasn't the one, he would be the one that would be the jealous one, not me. Right. Like, it's not like this just happened.

Yeah, it's not like he took your wife and you brought, lured him to your house. shot him right this is him he's getting his walking paper he's getting the boot exactly and usually nine times out of ten you probably know this whoever's where they're not supposed to be is the one with the problem right that's that's typically how it is and he was just like is an election year is somebody trying to make a statement and i'm just like i don't know i just know i didn't do anything wrong so huge amount of money we got to come this look good lawyers are not cheap if anybody out there that finds their self in need of an

attorney, they're worth every penny or the right ones could be, mine was, but they are not cheap. But the reason they're not cheap is like, as I'm sitting here telling him this stuff, like I'm mentioning names, this that, and the other papers are just being printed. Stuff on the guy, on

me, on everything, on his military records. I mean, just everything that could be pulled was being pulled like almost verbatim as I'm saying it. Like it was literally that scene was like something out of a movie everything that was being done and he goes and he said when are you supposed to turn yourself in i said today like in a couple hours of 12 o'clock and he's like give me a minute so he comes back and he's like all right i got your uh you don't have to go till

friday he's like but i'm gonna try to get it pushed back until sunday he said i'm telling him i'm taking you on as a client you know we're gonna we need some time to get stuff ready so basically what he needs for me is he's like you know reach out to everybody you know get some character letters rode up, you know, talking about who you are, what kind of person you are. He said, we'll present that with a judge to a judge for bond. He's like, typically in situations like this, I like to tell people to just sit in jail for a while and wait and let the heat die down. He's like, but in your case, I don't really see any reason why you should have to do

that because he actually represented, I don't know if you remember the case, but Mark Schlager, where Walter Scott, there was a video of the guy running away and the cop shot him like nine times in the back. Oh, yeah. Was unarmed? Yeah. Well, there's more to it than that. But my lawyer was Walter Scott's lawyer.

No, excuse me, Mark Schlager's lawyer. And he actually got him off on the local trial, but then the state come in and you can get him off. He got him off on the state, and then the feds come in. He actually got found guilty in the feds. But so he was... But that wasn't for murder in the feds? It was for, wasn't it for, like, violation, his civil rights?

It was something along those lines, yeah, because he got, I want to say he got like seven. 17, 18 years. I could be off on the number, but listening to the CSI guy that we wound up getting from my case done a podcast, breaking down like that Walter Scott

actually used the taser on Schlegger and which gave him right to be able to fire. Then you have to tie in, you know, was all the, what all happened before the video got put on, but that's, you can talk for a whole other show just about that alone.

That's craziness. But that was the same guy that, you know, represented him. And so we got all the stuff together. We got all the character letters together. And then he wound up, did get in a push back until Sunday. He's like, you don't have to turn yourself into Sunday at 1 o'clock.

So I'm like, you know, a couple days. At least you don't have to sit in jail over the weekend. Yeah, sit in jail over the weekend. That's a couple days. So we're trying to get everything together. We get care. I think I got like 65 character letters from different people. I would have had a lot more, but some of my friends are felons.

And they're like, I don't know if I should write one. And I'm just like, well, maybe you're right. Just keep your letter. I was like, I appreciate it. but just keep your letter. And so we go in and everybody comes down to my house like that weekend. I don't want it to sound like we weren't care. It was almost like a party.

Right. Like going away party kind of. Like everybody come, we eat. You could tell there was like an uncomfortableness amongst everybody. But it was kind of like, you know, just in case something goes wrong. If they do decide to keep me or whatever reason, it was just one last time everybody's getting together. So we get together, we eat. everybody hangs out and then Sunday morning

me and my wife got in the back of the car and my mom and stepdad took me to jail and dropped me off and I hugged everybody before I went in because I didn't know what was going to happen I mean getting bond for murder is not an easy thing right a lot of times you don't get bond for murder you have to stay in for a while so it was a I went in there not really knowing what was going to happen

I go in and uh you know sit down on the bed I'd never been arrested before mind you I don't want to I want to make this clear I'm not somebody that's a frequenter of the county jail i've never been arrested before in my life and so but this was a big one to go in there for and i sit down on the bench and there's this guy and you could tell he was like a old biker guy or whatever you know probably had a little bit too much to drink and he's like a bench of shame huh he's like yeah guess you could say that you know i'd always been told you know just don't talk don't talk just stay quiet stay yourself

so he says that and they fingerprint us and excuse me do all that good stuff take us to the holding room and he sits by me and he's like talking talking talking and then they come to see the magistrate well i already knew that with my charge a magistrate couldn't grant me bond i had to go in front of the circuit court well they take me another younger kid that guy all to the room now we're handcuffed wrist-to-wrist ankle to ankle having to shimmy down the hall and one by one my last name is williamson so i'm always going to be last and everything they call the first kid was like possession of marijuana you know PR bonny goes that was DUI second offense you'll have to get somebody to bail you out yada saying mr. Williamson you're being charged of murder and a violent

crime and when that guy when he said that the guy that I've been talking to this whole time he's just like and he just kind of start scooting down away so I was like you know yes sir I know I have to see the circuit court we go back into the room he immediately comes straight in and picked the stuff where it was at, ghosted op, the sorner of the room. Don't say nothing else. Tell me the rest of the time. That's funny. Yeah. So I was like, well, at least I can get some little peace and quiet here. That didn't last

very much long either. Because this is like the holding tank, you know, as people are getting arrested, everybody goes into this tank until it starts to get full, and then they'll start dispersing you out into the pods of the prison. But I knew I had court the next morning at 9 a.m. So I'm still in the street close,

and we have court 9 a.m. They come and get me. and I'm in a room with all, like, people that have been there for a while. One guy had just set a sister on fire. He's waiting to see the circuit court judge. And that's the thing is, like, you have to see the circuit court. The circuit court rotates throughout the county. So if I'd have went in there and they would have been in another county, say Dorchester County,

I'd have to wait until they rolled back around to my county, which was Berkeley County. Luckily, they were in Berkeley County that week. So I didn't have to wait. I was able to literally go to court for it the next day. So I caught a break on that. He's in there, like I said, he said, his sister on fire. He comes back in, happy, smiling because he only got 14 years because he could have got 30. Another guy's in there saying how he's going to go to Atlanta to, he's going to tell the cops,

he's going to testify against somebody to get him locked up, but he's really going to Atlanta because Atlanta's prisons got better food and he'll get better food for a couple weeks because the prison food where, I guess we were at here, was horrible. One other guys in there talking about, if he sees another guy and so-and-so in the court, he's going to kill him right there. I mean, I'm listening to all this being said, and I'm just like, geez, I'm saying to myself like, Jesus, right? I'm just around about some real fucking derelicts.

Yeah, like, these are some real fucking dudes. Like, there's no bullshit in here. And I'm just sitting there and one of them, and I was like, like, I hope nobody asked me, like, what I'm in there for? And sure enough, when I was like, you know, what you're in there for? Family court? And, uh, because they were all in like the jumpsuits, and I'm in regular street clothes. So I'm in like, yeah, something like that.

And then one guy knew, he was like, you're the kid from Cane Bay. And I'm just like, I kind of looked at him. I was like, yeah, he's like, we got TVs in here. We see the news just like everybody else. And I'm like, yeah, that's me. He's like, you got a lawyer. And I said, yeah. And they was like, who?

And I say, Andy Savage, he was like, hmm, you all right. And again, this first time I'd ever met this dude, I never needed a lawyer before, but everybody knows this guy's name. so we go in there they finally called me up i'm in here for god what seemed like an hour and the walk from the county lockup where you're at in the holding to get to the courtroom is like underground look like a dungeon so i mean like we're walking through there and i'm just every horror movie's playing in my head like dung-dum i mean it was just really really scary looking so we get over there we go in massive courtroom i mean huge flags everything the courtroom's packed full of people.

I just never been anything like this in my life. So I go, shoot me over to my lawyer. Their lawyer for the state's arguing that I shouldn't be giving bond, that I'm in danger to the community, yada, yada, yada, yada. My lawyer's saying, look, this guy's never been in trouble. He's had a good job. He's an upstanding member of his own community. Everybody knows him.

You know, so they fight back and forth. Well, any court show that I've ever seen, when a judge makes a ruling, she makes it right then. You know, either bond granted or bond denied. Right. So I'm waiting, and she goes, okay, I'll make my decision and let you guys know. Bam! And it hits the gavel.

And I'm just like, well, that's not what I was planning on. So I looked at my lawyer. I was like, what the fuck is that mean? He's like, I guess that means you'll let us know. And so they're automatically like taking me off. You know, I'm looking back, kind of like, you know, whispered mouth into my family. I love y'all. I've seen all them in the back.

So they're taking me back to the room and you've got to get on this thing where they, you know, rearrange your cuffs and put it back like you were. And I asked the guy, I was like, so what does that mean? she'll get back with me. Like, what does that mean exactly? And he's like, ah, she'll probably have you an answer in a week or so.

I'm like, a week or so. What the fuck? So we get back in and I'm just like, I didn't even know that was a thing. Like, I thought they were supposed to give you an answer right then. So I called my wife on the phone

after about an hour or two from jail. And I was like, all right, what the fuck is going on? And she said, well, she's already made her decision. She's going to give you bond. She's like, but they might not process the paperwork until tomorrow,

so you might have to stay in there another night. I'm just like, all right, well, if I got to, I can do another night. I didn't really sleep much anyway. And so I was like, all right, I can do another night if need to be. She said, but you may still get out. I don't know.

I was like, all right. So this is like three, four, an afternoon. Like nine. And people are still getting out at this time. That paperwork process takes a while. So seven, eight, nine o'clock, people are still getting out. Hey, you're going home. Hey, you're going home.

But you're pretty much thinking I'm staying the night. I was hoping, but I was planning on staying the night. But I just figured nobody would come for me if I would. and getting out because you know when they come it's usually say hey you're getting out yeah so about 930 they don't come in to say we're just checking on yeah just making sure you're okay you're needed a good space room service anything yeah they're not real concerned about you so no and the guy and i also mentioned this really quick the guy the um the biker guy was in there i swore i thought this dude was going to die right there in the cell he had asthma and they refused to give him his

inhaler and this dude i mean he looked like he was trying to breathe air through a flat and straw yeah i mean and every time he would ask about it They would say, okay, we'll look into it. We'll let you know. They'll let you die. Yeah. I was like, this dude is going to fucking die if they don't give him something. Yeah.

You're saying people as that's happened to? From exactly that. Asthma, they wouldn't give him this handler. They said, oh, the next day, it'll be tomorrow. He's like, no, you don't understand. I'm not a, what are there's different classifications? If I don't have it, I'll die. They were like, yeah, well, I don't know which one is tell you.

Go, go back to your fucking. Like, they don't give a fuck. Yeah. And then sure enough, that night, he died. Wow. Woke up the next day, dead. I guess he didn't wake up the next day dead his celly woke up the next day

and he was dead wow that's crazy but yeah so 10 o'clock 9 30 10 o'clock they opened up the door Williamson so I'm like fucking stoked I'm like shit they got it done I'm out of here I hopped down get there

and as crazy as it is the guy looked up and he's like you're Leah's dad right and Leah's my stepdaughter and I'm just like yeah and he's like my wife used to train her for gymnastics I was like, oh, how you doing? How we could cash out? Yeah, fancy meeting you here.

And I was like, I'm getting out here, and he's like, no, we've got to transfer you. And I'm like, transfer me, where? And he's like, to the pod. And I'm like, I'm supposed to be getting out like in the morning. Like, I've already got bond. He's like, doesn't matter. He's like, it just goes by the order of who is here.

He's like, you're the next one to go. And I'm just like, well, son of a bitch. So they take me, they swap me out and give me the jumpsuit, flip-flops, the, you know, little bag, cup, three and one body wash shampoo conditioner toothbrush roll the toilet paper and send you in so you go in and the one I was in it was like a big open area room with like those chairs that everything on it around there's no sharp points on them chairs at all and the TV and then you got a bottom floor and a top floor well then you go in there it's basically like just an open dorm there's

there's bunks in there but it's just open from one end of the wall to the other so a lot of people in here. So I'm walking. I'm like, all right, well, I'm probably not going to find the bottom bunk. Walked a one in, come back, and then I see the guy that said a sister on fire and kind of like waves that. Kind of waves

at me, and I'm just like, hey, I was like, you care if I get up there? He's like, no, man, go ahead. So I hop up there. You know, still at this point, I'm just like, Jesus, I can't, I'm staring at the ceiling. I'm like, I can't believe I'm here. Like, I've done nothing wrong. I've done everything from the

training they give you for your CWP by the letter of the law by castle law like I've done everything by the letter of the law and I'm still in here and it was blowing my fucking mind and you know I would talk a little bit one guy I come up to you man I guess he was kind of like the one of the top orderlies or something he's like do you need a job and I was like I know wait a minute I'm not going to be here yeah and that's what I was like nah he's like oh you bonding out and I said yeah I'm supposed to get out here tomorrow and he was like all right Well, yeah, if you don't, if you ain't getting out that quick, don't worry about it. Well, then somebody else, I guess they knew the guy that knew what I was in there for.

Yeah, that'll spread everywhere. Everybody, within two days, everybody, 150 guys, every one of them knows. Yeah, well, they knew that night. And the one guy, he was like, he said, man, let me ask you something. He's like, uh, he said you didn't need no job. And I was like, yeah, he's like, you're bonding out tomorrow. He's like, what fucking lawyer you got? He's like, I need him.

And I was just like, 80s 70s. He's like, oh, okay, I understand. That just kept coming up throughout there. And I am, I am heavily. tattooed. I got a lot of tattoos on my arms and stuff. And the guys were noticing that in there and they asked me who my tattoo artist was. And he was a local guy with like everybody in their knew them. And it was like, oh, I knew Eric. So it was kind of like that was like, I guess my end. They didn't mess with me, you know, or treat me like, you know, any other, any type of way.

And so I'm not going to say it was like, obviously I'd rather have been in my own bed, but it wasn't like a bad experience. Like it wasn't like, you know, they were in there trying to fuck with you or anything like that. And I mean, that was pretty much it, you know, spent that night there, got out the next morning, immediately went home, took a shower. And there's a funny story about that, too, that night I did decide to take a shower. And the guy, I didn't want to make it seem like I'd never been in there before. And the guy's like, he's like, you know how to work the shower, right? He's like, with the little thing in the back.

And I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah. And I go in there and it's like a little, you push it, and the thing only lasts for like five seconds. Yeah. But they have something to where they can jam. in there to where it don't I couldn't figure out how they'd done it but I'm not about to go out there and ask them yeah so I have I was having to take like miniature showers within five second increments to get somewhat clean but I was just like yeah I'm not telling them that I don't know how to work just everybody up in there assumed I think that I'd been in there before and I didn't do anything to

correct them on that either I was just like well if they're going to assume that let me get out of here so it was the push button and they had they had a thing a tab that you slept you could jam it in there thin piece of plastic that you could jam in there and it kept it from coming back. Yeah, because otherwise you hit it and then it slowly slides back out. Dude's in prison man or some of the smartest cats you will ever run across.

Listen, the necessity is the mother of invention. Exactly. Those guys, like, if you'd been in a place where, like, you need to get, somebody wants some coffee, five cells down and you're all locked up. Man, they start, they'll take their thread and make a thread and take something heavy

and shoot it down there. It'll bounce off the wall. and the next guy will get it and he'll slide it down. Next thing you know, then you've got a string back and forth and they're pulling fucking little bags of coffee back and forth. It's insane. Who thought that up? Like, it's ridiculous.

The one dude, he said he didn't let any cold air blowing on him, so he would wet like toilet paper and throw it up to block the cold air. Yeah, I mean, it was just. Yeah, COs get pissed. They come in and they get it down, they yell at you, tear your bed apart, and you'll just rebuild. It's just what we do. So, yeah.

Yeah, but, I mean, that was the extent of the spirit. It wasn't bad. It wasn't, you know, anything like the people, I guess, think the worst case scenario. It wasn't that. But granted, I was only in there a couple days. So thankfully, I didn't have to put any more experience in that than I had to. But I got out. And then immediately then, you know, the lawyers like, all right, you know, here's what we got.

We're going to plan a preliminary hearing for you. And this took place in July. So a couple months after. You still working? You're still going to work? Well, no, yeah, I guess I should cover that. I get out, because I'm only in jail. Like I said, I check myself in Sunday.

I get out Tuesday morning. I go to work, and I tell them, like, hey, I'm not going to need to miss work. I'm coming back. But obviously, they know what's going on. Yeah. And so I go out there, and he was like, all right, well, come over and go to the GM's office. So when he said that, I'm like, oh, boy. So we go to the GM's office.

And it was like my boss in my department, the GM of that new core. And he sit down and he's like, all right, well, you know, what's going on exactly? And I told him everything, and he's like, well, you know, unfortunately, man, we're going to have to let you go. And I was just like, what the fuck? I was like, after everything I just told you, he's like, yeah, I can't imagine the shoes you're in right now. And I'm like, well, imagine me being fired on top of it. Yeah. Like, yeah, you're not helping out in a situation.

I can promise you. Yeah, I'm like, I'm not going to need to miss work. Like, I'm out. I'm free to come to work. And they even blocked me from getting unemployment. They blocked. It said it was conduct detrimental to New Corps' offwork conduct policy. they blocked me from even getting

unemployment. I couldn't even get unemployment from after I got fired. What if you thought to some shit. Okay. But the silver lining to me getting fired was that then I could access the 401K that I had had built up. Yeah,

but you would think like, I mean, after they, well, anyway, let's keep going. Let's sorry. Oh, there can be a lot said on that. I mean, I was just like, I know people that have worked there that have had charges that not necessarily maybe what I had, but were serious, like serious charges that never got anything done to them. And I'm just like, why wouldn't you let me keep working?

Like, obviously, if I'm found guilty, you're not going to have to worry about fire me. Right. I'm not going to be back for a very long time. And, but for whatever reason, they just wanted to go ahead and get rid of me. And that's what they did. And so, like I said, with them fire me, it did open me up to be able to go into my 401K. Because as long as you're employed there, other than it being, I think you can do a loan, but you can't withdraw, like make big withdrawals.

Right. but, you know, you're going to have to pay your taxes, but after you no longer work there, you're free to do whatever. And so the prices for the lawyer was like $50,000 to take the case and like another 10 or 15 to start all the investigations and stuff like that. And that was just off the rip. So I go ahead. I pay that off in full.

I think I finished paying off my car I had at the time, you know, maybe a little bit of credit card debt. That way I didn't have any debt. And it was just a house payment, normal bills, and my wife was still working. We could manage if it was going to be a while before I could find another job because I didn't know what that was going to be like either. So I'm handling the lawyer situation, but I'm also trying to find a job,

and I go to Republic Services, which is like a trash company. But I'm a welder, so I was going to be at their facility where they would cut out panels that had been rusted out or dent it in, put in new ones and weld them up. It was good money, close to the house, good benefits. And I told the guy in the interview, I'm like, hey, this is what happened. And he's like, when all this happened? I'm like, you know, a week ago. He's like, oh, shit.

And he's like, well, I took criminal justice in college. He said, don't sound like you have anything to worry about. And I was like, well, I'm cool. I'm just letting you know if I say, hey, I got to go for a court hearing, you know why. Or if you see something in the news, you know why. Because it was still in the news. Like, when I got home from jail, there was two news stations sitting across from my house. I guess they knew I was getting out.

So they were just waiting. So it was a big story, especially in that community. It's just one of things that we're just don't happen. Right. Especially in those communities. So everybody was on it. There was countless articles on it. So when I come home, I was telling my wife, I'm like,

I think I got a job. Well, when it run through corporate in Arizona, and they run the background, it showed as a pending murder investigation. And they called me, and they rescinded the offer. Right. So I'm just like, well, fuck, there you go. I can't go anywhere that's going to run my background.

Right. And I found a sign company that was hiring at the time. because it was in such quick succession, I just told the guy, I didn't tell him I got fired. I told him that I wanted to be able to get off a night shift and be able to be more hands-on with my son, which wasn't a lie.

I did, but I just kind of got forced into that. Right. And so he didn't run my background. He hired me on the spot because he seemed that I had a long work history. I was with them for like 15 years, you know,

through two different branches, like seven and a half years in Columbia. another seven and a half years up here so he hired me immediately and i loved that job it was fun it was building signs like i had no idea there was much money and that like every business has to have some sort of signage so those guys make bank and so it was it was fun and i've done that for a little while but after this preliminary hearing we had nothing else nothing else happened no other events and in the preliminary hearing you know you can't divulge evidence in a preliminary hearing.

So the only thing that can be presented is why you charge someone. Right. That's it. And she wasn't giving any reason of why she charged me. And in the preliminary hearing, she lied like five different times. District attorney. No, this is the detective over my case. It was a female.

She lied five times in the preliminary hearing. Like that we can document, not just something to say, well, that's a lie. Like, she said that there was a point one time to where me and my wife were, you know, fighting a little bit. And they said that there was a report wrote up to where she said that he answered the door and he was holding a gun and a knife. I was like, well, how does somebody answer a door holding a gun in a knife? What was in the report was that my wife came over and she said there was a gun on the table. Now, this is before everything happened. Right.

But there was usually a gun somewhere around close. Like, I'm a gun enthusiast. I have a lot of guns. I've got 38s, 9 millimeters, SKS's. I mean... But they only mentioned the knife. Yeah. So the report only mentioned the knife.

Well, she said gun and a knife in lieu of I was holding them. Like I answered the door holding a gun and a knife. I was like, how do you answer a door holding a gun and a knife? Then there was other reports to where the guy has... It was come out later that he was on steroids. He actually took steroids that night. He took two vows of, I don't know, whatever you call it. I'm not into steroids.

Obviously, you can tell by this. but he took two vows of something. Well, they collected those vows from the house where my wife was staying at. Well, she said, we only collected one vial. It's in her report that she wrote that she collected two vows. So it's minuscule, but it's still a lie. She said that he was really distraught after this happened, that he locked himself out of the house when he come outside for the arresting officer

or for the first officer on scene. That never happened. The door was open. I don't know. It was almost like she was just fast. advocating little things to make it seem worse. Then she said, you know, my lawyer was up, well, have you ever known him or any reports to him being a violent person? She said, yes.

And he was like, what? Yeah, well, tell me. And he said, he wasn't allowed to go to the school to pick up his child because he and his wife were having arguments and he was banned from going to the school. I was looking. I was like, she's a fucking liar. Like, this has never happened. We go and we interview the principal. And the principal was like, no.

like if anybody bans anyone from the school from coming and picking up someone it's me you know nobody has that authority and he's like i don't even he's like i don't even know if i've ever met the man he said i've seen him but we've never really formally met and he said i've never went and told him that he couldn't be here and he said if i'd done that there would have to be some sort of documentation as to why and you know reasoning and stuff like that so what it was i was i was she just manufactured the whole thing well not not quite but what it was there was a school resource officer that was there. And I guess in one of these times when me and my wife were arguing back and forth,

I think it was over something about how much money we were going to be doing, child support. We were trying to figure out the logistics of it. This is before, obviously, the incident happened. The resource officer overheard my wife and another lady talking. The resource officer went and rode up something. My wife didn't even know because she spelled her name wrong on the report. And when I told my wife, I'm like, did you? fucking write a report on me and she's like no

we went and found out that it was her that the school resource officer wrote the report which even that didn't have anything in it saying that you know I was violent or anything like that and what it was was it said that you know overheard her and her husband was arguing a possible situation

that could come to the school like she was just basically doing it as something to document that this is something that could happen down the road the detective took that and rolled when it was like he wasn't allowed to come to the school it doesn't say that at all yeah it doesn't say that at all Yeah, it doesn't say that at all. And then we had to print.

So like I said, it's like five or six things that she lied about by herself just in that. And I mean, I don't know logistically, I don't know if that's considered a trial. But like, you can get in trouble for that for lying under oath on a birth trial. Yeah, but they don't. They never do. Yeah, they never do. Well, one thing that I will circle back, one one quick thing. There was, like I said, I told you, I fired three shots.

Two went through. One didn't. So obviously, if you got two extra. then you should find two bullets somewhere in the house. One struck the refrigerator, like I told you. The other one, they hit the water. I found that when I got out of prison or jail. Right.

We had to call them to like, hey, we found a bullet that obviously y'all didn't find. So that was a real bad look for her, not finding that other bullet. And that was, I think, kind of like the first thing is, you know, how bad did you really botch this whole case? and after that there was really no movement man nothing like we got so the the preliminary sorry the preliminary hearing was held to see if the charges can hold up and the judge could at that time say you don't have enough and she almost did at the end of it she said there's really not a lot here but she said given the circumstances i bind it to trial and that's what my lawyer said he's like we were this close yeah from getting a drop right here and that was it

Like I said, after we left there, we didn't hear. I mean, I kept getting reports in. We hired a forensics guy to New York. His name is John Palucci. He come down and they basically set up, like if you see on CSI, like the beans. So he went to where the wall, back to the refrigerator, back to the corner. So it proved where I was standing, like scientifically proved that I was standing where I was standing. That was big.

the angle of the bullets was coming into question because the pathologist had wrote in her report that the angle of the bullet didn't line up to like how I said I was standing and the reason for that is one entry point was high but the other one was a little bit lower so they're like you know well that doesn't make sense if you're all in front of each other

well it does if the guy's bent forward exactly if he's headed coming toward me and I'm assuming you're not a pathologist but even you knew that so if he's tilted and coming toward you Exactly. And the way she wrote it in the report was like, well, these stories don't line up. And another thing in the report, they said, well, he said there was a struggle in the beginning until the shooting happened, but we've seen no signs of a struggle. So he went back and he looked at the first officer's body cam footage, and there was like a knocked over shot glass on the floor, another knocked over shot glass on the stove, and another like rocks glass, like almost like that coffee mug there without the handle.

you know what you drink whiskey out of it was knocked over in the back corner so obviously three knocked over glasses you would think would be signs of a struggle right and then another big reason was she said there was no back spatter on me now back spatter even though it sounds like it would come out of the back it's actually what comes back towards you yeah yeah so if i shoot you here the back spatter would be what would fly back to me and because there was none they said that they questioned whether I was really in as close proximity as I was. But the thing is, he was wearing three layers of clothes. He was wearing three shirts.

He was wearing like a T-shirt, a shirt over that, and then a long-sleeve shirt over that. So the chances of you getting backspatter over three-layer of clothes is damn near non-existent. And then at the end it said he claimed to do life-saving measures, but there was no sign of that either. He didn't have any blood on it from that either. And that's why I made that point earlier.

I never seen blood. Right. There was not, at one point this whole time while I'm on 911, while I'm sitting there with him, while I got the towel, I never seen blood. And you did put the towel on like you were told to do. Yeah,

and that's why I was thinking. I was like, how do the hell do they think that towel got there? I mean, like when the guy comes in, he's laying in the kitchen and the towels right there on them. Like, there's nobody else in the house.

I'm the only one that could have did it. And, you know, that was pretty much what they built their case on. And that was what I were, CSI guy basically debunked. Everything that they gave, he gave a reason to debunk it. And pretty much for four years almost,

nothing happened with it. And a lot of that was due to COVID. They did reach out to my lawyer and ask if they wanted to do a trial through Zoom. And he said, no, that's not how he works, which I was glad with that. He's a theatrical guy. You know, he uses the courtroom as his stage. Yeah. So, you know, I was fine with that.

And by this time, I did land another job. I stayed with the sign company for a while. When COVID hit, they let a lot of people go. And then I found another job that I'm still at now that I love. I've actually made my way up to supervisor now. That guy knows about everything. He's from Texas. And the issue was with the sign places, I never told them.

So get this, I'm there like three months. I said, oh, we got a big job, an LED sign for a company. I was like, oh, really? Where is that? New Corps. that's the place I used to work everybody their nose

I'm like oh shit it's like do I need to go on this install and they're like no you don't need to go I'm like all right because I mean dude was nice but it's just like probably the type of guy

where if I told him exactly what happened he's like oh well well you know we don't need you here but the job just got filled and so I'm nervous as hell and so they go out there and sure enough one of the guys they're talking to

he's like oh yeah we got one of our guys at our shops that used to work out here what's his name wait My actual first name is Wade. He's like, Wade. Oh, yeah, I know him.

You know, how's everything go? Did he beat that case? What case? Well, you know, he killed a guy. He was arrested for it. What? You serious? So then everybody knew and everybody found out.

Now, the owner never said anything to me, but I think by that time he had seen that I was a good worker, that I wasn't a, you know, a deviant or anything like that. You know, a bad guy. I always come to work. I was always cutting jokes, making people laugh. So he never said anything. but I know he knew because sometimes we would have to go on jobs where you would require to have your background run like military bases and stuff like that and when those jobs come up I never got picked to go on those jobs right he knew he just didn't tell me he knew yeah and then like I said when COVID hit um they let me go and which they did quite a few people and when I was at the job of it now I just went and told him up front I was like look dude I damn there got an ulcer at my last job not knowing like if he was going to find out of it now I was at the job I was going to find out of it now I just went and told him up front I was I looked dude I damn there got an ulcer at my last job not knowing like if he was going to find out of

what he was going to do you know if every day I was going to walk in like why didn't you tell me this I'm like so I'm just telling you this right now up front if you want me this is what I got coming with me you know this is the baggage and he's like dude I'm from Texas he was like you didn't do anything that I wouldn't have done I'm just like all right cool and so just doing that was like a weight off me like a tremendous weight that he knew and I didn't have to worry about hiding anything and you know I worked there and I still work there now and in the process of the COVID, I started my own podcast, which we talked about earlier. You know, you were a guest on my show.

And the reason, I think there's no other quicker way to get somebody to learning about the law if you're in the middle of shit. Yeah. Legally. And so immediately I go to, all right, wrongful conviction podcast. So I check out Central Park, Central Park 5, Rusparia, a bunch of different cases. That leads me to true crime. Then I'm like, all right, well, this is kind of cool.

I'd never listen to podcasts before. and then I just decided to do my own, and it kind of grew legs and took off. Because I'm a real social person. Like I like to talk to people, and being on house arrest, that doesn't work very well. Right.

You're stuck. But being able to do it through Zoom, still gives me my availability to talk to people and talk to all different kinds of people and different subjects. And they come to a point where I had to go to New York. So I called my lawyer, and I meant, look,

we ain't heard nothing from these guys from years. Like, I think one thing, they did have a prosecutor that was, over my case he left so they hired a new person it was a woman she only stayed for like six months then she left then they had a newer guy in there so there was that that may have delayed it a little bit but he just told me he was like look he said if you're good the more time that goes by the better it is yeah because things get lost people move people die you know whatever a lot of shit can happen in there and i'm just like okay well i'm i'm happy but when i got to the point to

where i needed to go to new york i'm just like look you know it's i'm getting kind of tired of shit hanging over my head because that's a heavy weight to not know if you're going to have to go to trial or jail for my mom because that's essentially life you know 30 years at my age that's pretty much life and I was like you know we got to tell them either either shit or get off the pot here

so they gave me permission to go to New York in July I went I needed to go back in September to do another show with a guy up there went and done that and then finally this past November the lawyer calls and he said Hey, what you doing? I'm like, I'm working, man, what you doing?

He's like, just figured I'd call a free man. And I'm just like, are you serious? His drop? He said, yep, case dismissed. And what did it was after that second trip to New York, the new prosecutor or solicitor that was over there. I think the same thing, isn't it?

Yeah, probably, yeah. The new one agreed to have a meeting. He sent him an email. He's like, hey, we've been on this almost five years. He's like, here's where we're at. and he was like I'll get familiar with it and get back to you and so we had a meeting to where we all went to the police station I kind of gave my story to him there they played a PowerPoint which is everything I was just explaining you about you know the knocked over glasses

they had it all highlighted like they made it very easy for you to see what's going on the forensics the forensics and all that like we're going to tear you apart in court yeah and then they came to the house so I had the prosecutor solicitor come to the house with one of his other guys, a crime scene guy from the police, they all come to the house and seeing it in the picture in person paints a very good picture of how it went now, because this is not a wide kitchen by any means. You're already in a compact area. So the fact that if somebody's laying a stretch across the floor, if you stand them up like their full body length, and he's maybe, I don't know, 5, 8, 5, 9, something like that, there's not a lot of room to be

had. You know, now if you were laying up against the refrigerator, that's one thing. But he wasn't he was still probably a good six inches to a foot away from it so i think seeing that really put it in perspective form that like you said if we go to court we're going to get fucking annihilated right and not long after that they dropped it and and i want to say hats off to that prosecutor for even doing that because like he even told me he said this is very rare he said most prosecutors don't do this he says so the fact that he's coming out here to do this is you know something special he said but at the same time it's a risk because we're showing him we have yeah so he can go and say all right well they got this we need to you know do whatever but

luckily it all worked out and finally after four and it was like four years nine months it finally got dismissed at the basically the 31st of october nice nice that's fucking honestly you're probably die about five years earlier oh yeah i'm sure probably 10 yeah yeah because i mean that's that's what i'm thinking like you know and it doesn't even stop at me my son every grade he goes up see i don't know how it is here but like we have schools in these communities yeah all the insider schools there so obviously you got facebook right down there's right down the street yeah a block away so you got that then you got facebook and all these parents and everything so like every year somebody goes oh yeah i know you're your dad's the one that shot somebody in yeah yeah

every year he has to go through that and there was a period of time it was like a about halfway in between this i want a siberian husky and my neighbor has a uh uh Not my immediate neighbor, the neighbor of my neighbor, had a pit bull. This dog was notorious for getting out and, like, biting people. Right. And I come home one day from work, and it had jumped the fence and, like, messed my pit bull up, like, I mean, bad. You're a pit bull? No, no, my husky.

I'm sorry. The pit bull messed my husky up. So we had to take him a doctor. Like, he wasn't in fear of dying, but he was, he was bleeding from a lot of different places. I mean, it messed him up good. He couldn't walk for, like, two or three days. And so I was, like, super pissed. I was like, she came over to the house

and was like trying to apologize. I'm like, I don't want to fucking talk to you. It had already bit my son a year previous. Now, when I say bid, it was like a nip. Yeah, but still. Yeah, and I didn't say too much about it, but I did say he's not going to go back down there because it was a situation where they were playing basketball

and I was like, well, maybe the dog was just playing and it just, you know, bit a little too hard. But I just told him, I'm like, hey, don't go down there no more. But this was different. Like, this dog now had jumped in my yard and done this. So somehow I know, the news got wind of it. And they contacted me and there's like,

hey, we want to come out and do a report on this dog bike. And I'm just like, yeah, that's fine. And I was like, I said,

but I don't want to be in the report. I was like, I wasn't home. My daughter was. She was the one that was there and the thick of it. If you want to talk to somebody, she'd be the one to talk to her.

Just because I didn't want to put my face out there and what's something else. So they do that. The report gets done. And then somebody on Facebook shares it. And then this lady comes on and she's like, well, I'm not sure how. She said, I'm pretty sure this girl is related to the guy

that shot a man in his house and got away with it. And somebody was like, well, how would you know that? She said, I'm a public defender for Berkeley County. She said, he shot the man in his house, claimed self-defense, but she said there's a lot of evidence that doesn't support that. Then he went and hired the best attorney in Charleston to try to beat it. He said, I wish him luck, but the evidence isn't in his favor. This is on Facebook.

And she's a public defender. asshole. And I didn't say anything. I'm, my, and certainly even as a public defendant, like the likelihood that she's actually gone down, looked at the case. Like, she may have been around the water cooler. Yeah. And the other public defender said, well, it doesn't look good for him.

Or some bullshit. But the fact that she went down, looked at all the evidence and everything else, like that's highly unlikely. Yeah. And then later on, somebody may even say, well, this is your job. And like, you know, maybe you shouldn't be on here putting shit like this on Facebook. And she was like, well, yeah, I may have said of some

things that probably shouldn't have been said on such a public forum, but I've had a few cocktails that is what it is. And I'm just like, what the fun? And I can't say anything. It's just burning me up inside. I can't say anything. That's what the lawyer told me. He's like, you cannot go at people on his Facebook. He's like, let him say what they're going to say. They're going to say it. He said, if you go at them, it'll become worse. And he's like, just don't respond. So for four years, I never responded to anybody. And anytime there's like a firework or somebody thinks it's a gunshot we the neighborhood is backed up to some some open land so there is hunting that goes on anytime everybody here's like a gunshot for some reason my name always gets brought

up right and it's a lot of people now are gone that we're here then so they're like oh there was a what happened and the the situations that people come up oh a guy caught his wife in bed with another woman and he shot the guy I'm just like that is fabricated like that's not even true people are scumbags I'm like we were living in different houses like why would I I mean, I was just like, ah, it was so frustrating. But you and you and, so she ends up, she moved back in, I'm assuming you're still together. Everything worked out. Still together, going strong.

You know, like I said, the whole thing was we were getting back together anyway. Yeah, yeah. This was, that was the step. It just, this happened in the middle of it. So obviously, yeah, it kind of put a lot of pressure on us. And, I mean, it still put a lot of pressure on us because, you know, it's not been easy for me, man. I mean, it's a, you know, there's a depression. aspect of it. There's a worry. I mean, it's basically like for four and a half years,

I've contributed to saying if I went to see if I had cancer and I've been waiting to see the results for four and a half years. Right. Because essentially this would be terminal, like I wouldn't get out of prison. And it's not like they even charged me with anything less. Like they went straight to murder, not involuntary or whatever. Another lawyer thought that they may probably try to plea it down because you can always go down, you just can't go up. Yeah, I assume that they would have come to you at some point. and made some kind of offer like, hey, manslaughter, you know, something like that, but they never even made an attempt.

No, well, I told him if they did, I was like, you tell them no fucking way. Go to trial. Like, you find me 12 people from South Carolina that disagree with what I did, then I guess I'll go away and have some free meals for a while, but I just don't think you can do it. No. Not with everything laid out there. And that's what people say, were you nervous?

And I'm like, well, yeah, I'm nervous because I'm in a situation. I was like, but as far as like the end. evidence speaking for itself, no, I'm not nervous. Like I'm in a very unique position to where I don't need to lie about anything. Right. Like a lot of people probably have, maybe have to cover up stuff to, you know, maybe not. They might have made one, one wrong step. Yeah. But you're saying I didn't make any wrong stuff. I did everything. Yeah. That was correct. Yeah. I didn't do anything wrong. And, but still found myself in it. And that's what really opened my eyes to how much this happens. Because there's not a doubt in my mind. It's, it's not a racial issue.

It's not a black or a white issue. It's a green issue. It's a money issue. And if I hadn't had the money to go get a good attorney, there's no doubt in my mind. You and me would not be having this conversation right now and I'd be behind bars. All right. There's not a doubt in my mind. It all boils down to money.

Actually, I mean, we were just, we were actually talking. I was like, oh, a lot of times they'll charge you with this. And then eventually, the more they'll let you worry, a worry, worry. And then they'll come and they'll say, okay, let's do this. We'll let you charge to this. Even though you're not guilty of anything, the fact is a lot of people say, you know what,

I'll take the manslaughter charge. Why? Because I'm just too terrified of being found guilty of murder and going away for 30 years. I'll go ahead and go for five years. It's already been a couple of years. So I'll go for five.

I'll get out in four. It's fine. I don't think I did it, but I'm so scared. And they bank on that. That's exactly. You're exactly 100% right. They bank on that to get their conviction rates up. And essentially,

that's all public defenders are anyway. They're plea deal brokers. Yeah. I mean, they try to get you, plea deals that they don't have the, and to defend them, too, they don't have the resources to help you like a paid lawyer will. So that is their best way to help you is, oh, you're looking at 30 years, well, I can

get you a plea where you do seven or 10 or whatever. And that's how the prosecutors move up the ladder. I mean, that's their way to climb up the charts. Like you and I and YouTube, our way of climbing up the charts is getting good content, good guests, good episodes that spread around and people watch a show. They want to put people in jail for life. and that's how they move up the ladder and they don't give a shit if you're guilty

or innocent, it doesn't matter. You know, it's even bait, um, clickbait. Yeah. You know, think about it. Like, I know that this sounds better. It's not really what you're about to watch. Yeah. But it, I know it'll get clicks.

So I know it'll get a win. Oh yeah. It's not quite there. And some people will watch the whole thing hoping that that's, that that title is in there somewhere. But then in the end, they watch an hour and a half thing.

And it's not really what has. happen, but by that time, I got you. So, you know, so, so it's the same thing. Like they say, well, he answered the door with a knife and a gun. He, you know, in his hand, or he this, or the, the, the bullet trajectory doesn't, doesn't line up with the story or, well, you know all that's not true, you know, but I'm going to say it because it'll keep, it'll keep the charges solid. It'll lead to maybe him getting us going to trial and maybe I'll get lucky and he'll take a plea you know so they do that and it you know the only problem is is that they're they're playing with people's lives and yeah and you know and they told my lawyer i was not taking a plea yeah and they'll

justify that to them that's what kills me about prosecutors it's like you're you're you're actually like you you can you sleep like a baby at night like you did i steal some money yeah i stole some money did people get inconvenienced absolutely did people financially get harmed yes there were some people that lost $5,000, $10,000, you know, did I ruin their lives? No, their lives aren't ruined, but you get in front of the judge and you say, he ruined people's lives. He, like, knowing that's a lie, just to inflame the, you know, the jury or the judge and get them on their side. Like, it's and then then somebody ends up getting 20 years for you know for something that really probably should have gotten a couple of years not in my case but i mean like for drugs or something

you should have got a couple years you gave him 20 years because he pissed you off because he went to trial and didn't want to take the year or two and you sleep like a baby at night like you didn't save society you just cost society half a million dollars to incarcerate this person for 20 years when the truth is this guy was selling you know dime bags and you treated him like he was a fucking kingpin because you're pissed that he didn't take the deal and that's that happens a lot

man a lot more than people realize and once this happened to me you know I dove into like I said a lot of wrongful conviction cases and stuff like that and since then I've been able to have a few of those guys on my show like Russ Ferrea he had a show on I think it was Hulu it's on peacock now but it was called The Truth About Pam with Renee Zellweger

and basically his wife was dying of cancer. She was live, stage four cancer. She was literally going to be dead within a couple of months. Right. Like it was the last stages. And the lady that was a friend of his wife's name, Pam, killed her, forged insurance documents so she could get the money. But yet they penned a murder on Russ,

and he was in jail for three years before the truth finally come out. Whoa. Yeah. Crazy. And then I just got done an interview. Matter of fact, I come out on my show this week with Jeffrey Descovic. I don't know if you know who he is or not. he's been on some other shows,

but he was arrested at 16 for the rape and murder of a classmate. Everything about his confession, everything was coerced, and he's done 16 years in prison before the Innocence Project got involved with him, and they found that he was not guilty, and he got out. And since then, he's actually became a lawyer to help, you know, fight these things. And he actually, when I interviewed him on my show, he actually had the first guy since he became a lawyer. and lawyer his foundation and gotten people out but since he actually went and got his law degree

this was the first guy that he got out and he was on the show so it happens a lot more than than people think and you know when you break down percentages you're not like oh well you know something's bound to slip through the cracks that that's not something that's supposed to happen when you're talking about people's lives that's not minor that's not minor no and you and you're I want to say the percentages are like 10 or 12% of people that incarcerated or wrongful incarcerated probably hired in that because they just took a deal like like you said, because they were scared. But it's like, if I told you, oh, only 10% of planes fail,

are you going to feel the same about fucking flying? Like, I'm not, you know? I'm, even though the percentages of whatever, are very low, I was nervous as hell flying out here last night. Like, I mean, it's just, you know, anytime you have to put your trust in the hands of someone else and they have a proven track record or not being able to handle it properly,

it makes you nervous. Yeah. And that's kind of what I want to do with this now. I mean, you're actually the first show that I've been on that I've told the story to, and I want to tell it on other shows, but I want to get this word out there because I'm just not the guy that you think this happens to. I'm not a career criminal. I've never been in trouble.

I was a blue-collar Middle America citizen who, yeah, I don't hunt, but I love guns, and I've had guns since I was 18 years old. South Carolina. Yeah, this was just something that happened because of short-sightedness from a detective. who's actually not even a detective any longer. She got demoted all the way down to the prestigious role of a security resource officer

at an elementary school. Nice. Those kids will be safe. Yeah, yeah. Maybe somebody's fruit rolling. She's probably planting stuff in their lockers right now. I'm sure they are. Get up against the wall, Sally. Oh, and check this now. So the National Championship game, which was a blowout, but the other,

we got a Buffalo Wild Wings built right at the back of our neighborhood. And I'm there with my son. And we're watching. and I was kind of wanting TCU to win. He was wanting Georgia to win, you know, so he's giving me shit. And I see this woman walk in and I was like, God, this woman looks familiar. It was her? And the guy walked in.

It was her. The guy walks in, I was like, I know this guy too. And the more I got to look and I'm like, holy shit, it's her. And she sits down at the table and there's like a whole group of kids come in that say something. They had a name on the back of all their shirts. But what it is, she's like leading those kids of trying to tell them, I guess, what it takes to be an officer. or whatever. I was like,

I wanted so bad to stand up and be like, if y'all gonna follow her, you need a different fucking line of work. Yeah.

That's not going to work. Yeah, it was her. And she seemed, she knew who I was, she kept looking. I told my son, I was like,

tell me if she keeps looking back or he was like, oh yeah. They said she keeps looking. You turn around and go. No? No. Um,

I started to buy her a drink. Oh, yeah. That would have been, that would have played. nice yeah um all right so the channel's doing the channel's doing all right it is man it's doing great and uh you know when like i said i was thinking of doing like a crime base show true crime show but then i was like dude there's so many you know true crime shows and they get do it well

there's a lot of research that goes in yeah yeah you know get facts and stuff like that so i twisted it just a little bit and i put that crime and entertainment right on there so in the entertainment portion kicks in, I can talk to anybody. So I've been able to talk to guys like, you know, actors like Tom Seismore. I had Tommy Chong on the show, which was very cool. I mean, that's probably like the one time I was just like a little star struck, you know. I was like, God, I watched you when I was a kid. So being able to talk to him for a couple hours, I just had a guy from the godfather on.

Connor doesn't know who Tommy Chong is. Guarantee it. Half the people who, do you? I feel like I've heard the name of it. Listen, there's so many things that I'll be like, as we're talking, I'm thinking, you don't know who that is. Cheech and Chong, they used to do these. We, Ligwood, Florida, I don't know.

Yeah, they used to do all these movies. This was back when, like, it was taboo, and they would do these movies called, like, Up and Smoke, or, you know, and then they would do these movies. And they were just two kind of stoner. I love the ones where they think they're Mexican, and they throw them in the back, they get, they deport them to Mexico.

They're like, I'm from Detroit. Like, what are you talking about? But they're stoned, they're like, hey, man, what are you talking about? Like, hey, I'm an American man. They're like, no, no. But they're hilarious. The movies are hilarious. Probably funnier if you're stumped.

Oh, yeah, for sure. But I don't even funnier as a kid when I was watching them because, like, I didn't even, don't know if I necessarily knew what they were doing as a kid the first time I watched it. I didn't understand it. They were high. But it was just funny because, like, the car is, like, Phil would smoke. And he's like, hey, how's my driving? And he's like, I think we're parked, man.

And they're like on the side of the road. in front of a sign and the cop comes up he's like where's your license back there on the bumper man but having him on there was just really really cool I've been able to talk that

you know like as the actors from the Sopranos that's like my favorite TV show so I've got to talk with like four or five people from Sopranos God he fucking killed himself right like the guy who plays Tony Soprano

no he kills he's died heart attack oh he just had a heart attack yeah oh I thought he killed him I don't know why he died. James Gandoffini. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, he had a heart attack in Italy. I thought he killed himself.

No, no, no, no. He's been dead a couple years now, but he just had a heart attack in Italy. I mean, if you watch that show in progression, you could tell he did get bigger each season. Yeah. And I think it was just one of the things that were he never kind of got it under control and he got a little bit bigger. And yeah, he had a heart attack in Italy. I'm pretty sure it was Italy.

And his son was over there with him, I believe. But then, you know, they redone. they called it a, what is the Many Saints of Newark? And his son, Michael, plays a younger hymn in the movie. So it's like everybody from Sopranos, but maybe in their 20s or something like that. And, you know, that was the basis of that movie. So you get all the same characters in there, but they're obviously just different people. But I thought that was kind of cool that he played his dad.

Yeah. But, yeah, it's been going very well. I had, you know, guests like you on there. I'm, you know, a lot of, Tim McBride, who I know you've interviewed, fucking great. And can go forever. Yes. He'll go and go and go. And it's like, yeah, listen, Tim, like, I have, I appreciate this.

We were like two hours, 45 minutes and he was just still going. And then all of a sudden he says, and at this point, I started selling marijuana. Tim! What are you doing, bro? And that's when we started smuggling. Oh, God, the smuggling story is another four hours. I don't like to keep people longer than an hour, you know? I'm like, you know, because some people don't even like sitting for longer than an hour.

But there are some stories that just have to go. And I think one of the other ones that went. He's made a whole, Tim's made a, Tim don't have a job. Yeah. He got a whole career based on just, you know, I'll show up and I'll tell you my story. And he tells it the same pretty much every time. He hits the points. He's got the, you know, he's, uh, and he bits,

paid for speaking engagements for, you know, so, but, but, yeah, he's, he's, he's pretty good. He's pretty good. Who else is like that? Oh, Mike, Mike Dowd. Yes. Have you talked to Mike Dowell? I've met Mike in New York.

We went up there for, Anthony Ruggiano was having something at a studio in Long Island, and I met him, and we were actually supposed to do a show. The weekend that I, my charges got dropped. I was actually, I had the flu. I was diagnosed with the flu. I was supposed to go back up there that weekend and me and Dow were supposed to do a show in that same studio, but I had to cancel it.

So we're going to get it done at some point, but I've met it personally. He's got the second highest views on my channel. He was with, I think he was the first, like the first or second, I think it was the first interview I did. And the video itself, like Colby botched. Like there are times where like 20 minutes in

and then maybe another at an hour in and like an hour and 10 minutes in where where I'm doing this and it's doubt is talking and I'm not talking or doubt is talking and it's saying something else like it's like he totally like

you know Colby just you know botched the whole thing because it was the first time we were doing it and what we were doing was we had two cameras but we didn't have the switcher yet so he was there and he took it and when he stacked the videos something happened And, oh, plus the cameras we had were like shutting off. Oh, boy.

And it was, it was a fucking train wreck, bro, right? Because I had the old cameras that shut off at like 25 minutes or 22 minutes. You know, now we got these, I got these things. And they don't actually, this one overheat sometimes. But for the most part, they're great. But, yeah, but still, he, he was great. He was great. And I didn't even know his whole story.

Wow. Because I knew parts of the story. And then later, I was like, I should have. to watch the whole thing, because he missed. He always skips the part where he was supposed to kidnap this person. He skips that whole part.

And he's like, yeah, yeah, you know, and then I went to jail. If I had known that, I'd be like, wait a second. You skipped the fucking kidnapping. Ah, we don't have to talk about that. But he's a character. It's funny, too, because I've always been like, is he coked up? Like, he's so animated, but he's just wired, man.

Everybody says that. That's just how he is, bro. He's just jacked. up all the time. Well, you can imagine when he was doing it. Oh, God. Like he said, I don't know. Have you watched the whole documentary since then?

Since then, yes. So he said he just like pulls in his Corvette and the damn chief's parking spot. I mean, like, I can see him doing that. He's a maniac. You know what's so funny is you'll talk to, like, I have a cousin who's a meth addict, right? And there are some people, like, if I drink coffee, like, I can't go to bed. Like, I can go upstairs. If I drink a cup of coffee, I can't go upstairs and go to sleep.

my but because my cousins are like a meth addict and he's just his chemically he's just he's just wired different he'll drink two cups of coffee and it puts him to sleep and it's like what and a lot of these guys are like this I was wondering like if this is if this is dowd normal what's he like on coke he may be like drowsy like falling asleep and totally like calm like you're talking to an accountant or something instead this maniac but yeah I've had some great ones. Listen, you know, you know another podcast I had was a guy named Walt Pavlo? Did you, you weren't here yet with Walt.

This was at the old house, at the old place, the old house. I'm going to say the studio. It was really my apartment. So at the old studio. And Walt, we had a conversation. And I knew a little bit about Walt's, like he was a part of MCI. He worked for MCI. And I thought, okay, so you fudge some numbers.

No big deal. And, you know, that's like I had heard bits and pieces of the story, but it was such a boring story. I never followed. I never really watched the whole thing, right? Then he came and he told the story. And as the story progressed, I was like, you did.

He's literally, he's working deals with people that owe money. Like, give me a million dollars. I'll get your credit line shut, turn back on. You can borrow this much. You can then run it up to this much money. Close it down. Send me the million. Offshore. He's got like six or seven million stacked off. He's running a whole scam on MCI while they're melting down. He's taken and I was like in the middle of that thing. I remember looking at him going, you know, bro, I have like this is horrible, but I have like a newfound respect for you. Like I thought he was just like some CPA like cooking the books. Yeah. No, bro, you're running this massive. He didn't steal a little bit of money. It's millions. A million offshore hidden accounts. It was like, this is brilliant.

Like, it was horrible, horrible. I mean, I feel bad. But, you know, but yeah, he was, it was. Tommy, you know, Tommy got locked up, assuming to Tommy Chong, he got locked up for a little while when he had his bond company, and it was when Biden and Obama was in administration. There was something that they were trying to get him on of selling paraphernalia across state lines or something along those lines.

I forgot the specifics, but basically he copped to the charge, got like six months in prison if they would leave his family alone. they basically said they wanted him he was the name and when he went in there he whatever prison it wasn't a prison it was more of a like a camp there's a camp yeah well he was in there with jordan belford yeah he can't belford says he convinced me to write my story yeah and that's what he told him he's like you know he said i believe in something called the most of and he said jordan's like what do you mean he's like man whatever it is he's like if you're the if you were high you're the most high you've ever been in your fucking life if you were going fast that was the

fastest you've ever drove in your life. And then I'm just like, I remember bits and pieces of the Wolf of Wall Street. And I'm like, well, he took that to the letter because like everything in there was the most of. Yeah. Yeah, I thought that was cool. He said they were, they couldn't hang around each other because they're both like convicted of fellas. But he said he would stop at the street and he would step out and they would like yell at each other from the porch. Well, all right.

I mean, we're good. You feel, you got anything else? I mean, I guess the biggest thing is, you know, people. People, when you see something on TV, if you see, because I'll even admit, I was like this, when you see something they made an arrest, I was like, well, damn, he must have did it. Yeah. You know, it was just, it was just how I was my mode of thinking at the time now. No.

Not so much. Listen, what about law and order? Like, I used to watch Law and Order, and, like, there were times when McCoy, McCoy was the district attorney. So McCoy, you don't know what law or were down. You've heard of it. Well, longest running fucking program ever. So anyway, like multiple series spinoffs, everything.

Anyway, McCoy would find out in the middle of something of the investigation. And he'd charge this guy in the middle of it, something would happen. And he would go, oh my God, like he's not guilty. And then they would be like, quick, where is he? Well, he's in Rikers right now. Call the warden. We got to get him out. Like he's a fit, like, oh my God, I sent the wrong man to jail.

We have to get this. Listen, in real life, they go, shh, shh, shh, don't say anything, bro. We got a conviction. He's in jail. Shut the fuck up. Yeah. Like, we're good.

Like, yeah, that, like, it's fine. It's fine. He had his day in court. It says he's guilty. Yeah, but you know now. I don't know anything. That could be in anything. I don't know.

Like, suddenly it's like, are you fucking serious? You know the guy's innocent. In the movies, they're offended because they want, prosecutors want to do. do the right thing right but in real you know i mean i mean that's in the movies but in you know in real life a lot of times they want a conviction like i don't really think this guy probably murdered him he maybe maybe it's you know manslaughter um but i think i can get him for murder okay

well wait a second like that's you just said yeah but if i twist it this way and do this and I think I can get that guy down the street to say this. I think he'll say that if I push him. I think I can convince the jury. It's like, what are you doing? There's no, there's no nothing here. There's not even this. You know, or they overreach Casey Anthony.

Murder. Okay, but you can't prove murder. Why don't you leave manslaughter on the table? No, we'll pull it and will force them to convictor of murder because they have to charge her or something. Well, guess what? They don't charge her. They say, nah, I don't see murder.

Maybe manslaughter. We're not going to charge her. But there's no manslaughter. They took it off the table. So is she guilty? No, not a murder. Boom, she goes free. So, you know, people don't realize the games they play,

and sometimes it works to their advantage. And sometimes it does it. Sometimes guilty people go free, and sometimes innocent people end up getting fucking 25 or 30 years. Yeah. I mean, in researching this, I found out it happens.

a lot you know and like I said a lot of it like we mentioned earlier boils down to who you can have as a lawyer and even sometimes a good lawyer can help him in case Anthony's lawyer at least I don't know how well he was known at the time I know he's big shit now but he but he was amazing and then he got off um what was the football player Hernandez Hernandez got Hernandez I mean Hernandez killed himself because of the second case or whatever that may have happened the other one he got him off on the second never got him off on that case like it was insane it's like wow this guy even Casey Anthony's the fact that he got her off Yeah that was insane

Yeah that was insane matter of fact His name got brought up whenever When somebody was saying When we were talking about Jose bio Jose Baez bio It might be Baez I can't remember Jose something Spanish Yeah and I was just like oh shit

I was like yeah I'll stick to local guys Yeah But I mean it did Plus you had Not that it couldn't have gone bad But honestly You had a solid Like like like

And probably which is probably A mistake on your part is you're like, I'm innocent, which may or may not have meant anything. But the fact is, is that, you know, so one, you had, hey, one, I'm innocent. And two, you're thinking, like, this should be a slam. If I do go to trial, like, it could go either way, but it's, like, I know I haven't done anything. Well, what we were thinking of or what we were going to make a motion for is what was called a dunkingering. And that's basically a plea of self-defense and castle law.

now that wouldn't be the trial that would be us so at that point in time we have the burden of proof on us to prove that we acted in self-defense if they would say okay well no we don't see self-defense you know denied or whatever

then we would have to go to trial then the burden of proof gets flipped to the state to prove that I've done this or whatever and I'm just like even from the start from the first piece of the conversation like I don't reach out to that guy he reached out to me yeah like murder is premeditated murder like at no point in that time that i have time to think or plan any of

this i was at home in bed watching the ufc i mean so all of it was there they they took my phone they took his phones all of it was there so they had it all they knew it i think it was my opinion at the end of the day a rookie cop rushed it or not rookie i shouldn't say rookie but newly promoted to detective rushed to judgment and in doing so it cost me you know probably up by the time it was all sudden done because i had to pay for that forensics a guy to come down. We had to pay, he flew down twice. It's probably going to be close to like $100,000 that I've been out

of just to prove that I'm innocent and offer them to just drop the charges. We didn't even have to do the knock in hearing. They just dropped it. And to me that's basically saying, my bad, we fucked up. I just wonder how many elementary children right now are having

drugs planted in their lockers from this woman. The incarceration rate in the local juvenile facilities is going to going through the roof here skyrocketed um all right we're good yes sir we're good man appreciate it no i i appreciate you flying down i appreciate you coming and doing it in person and that's what that's what i want to do and and i want to get on a few more shows and just just spread the word about this because we mentioned earlier you know this this you wouldn't expect a guy like

me to be involved in something like this you would think it was clear because anybody that ever told the story to was oh well that's self-defense yeah most sane people think that but i guess some people didn't, but, you know, it does depend a lot on the lawyer. And there's insurances that protect you from certain things like that. I need to get up with them. I need to be their spokesperson. I need to be like, dude, you let me go at a seminar. You're trying to sell us insurance.

I'll tell them how much money they can save because it happened. Yeah. And basically it's like if you pay, I think it's like, we'll just say 20 bucks or whatever, you get like $50,000 worth of coverage. And if you're found not guilty, then you get, you know, everything's paid for. It's like Kerry Guard or USAA. but it protects you in these situations so if you use your weapon

and then you get charged they cover all the expenses kind of like I do for the home title lock yeah it's like a little spokesperson Hey if you like the video do me a favor and hit the subscribe button hit the bell so you get notified of videos just like this share the video

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