Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - $8.9 Million Dollar Tax Scam Gone Wrong!
Episode Date: January 7, 2024$8.9 Million Dollar Tax Scam Gone Wrong! ...
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Anyway, so I remember when I was talking to him
And this is where the whole kind of like
It had evolved.
Like he was like, and I remember just sitting there
It was me and a couple other guys
And we were talking to him and they were like, yeah,
that's a pretty good scam, right?
I was like, you're an idiot.
As we're, he was like, well, what would you have done?
I want what I have done.
He said, I would have.
Hey, this is Matt Cox
and it's me and
Zach
and we're going to be
we actually got a
we actually got a
almost knocked that over
what if I'd knock this over right now
twice you've almost knocked it over twice
I know this is an issue
so I get all jacked up
so what happens is we had a
we've answered a bunch of questions
from viewers and one of the questions
was are there any scams
that you learned about
or came up with while you were incarcerated
And the answer is, you know, it's yes and no, but one of the big scams right now, and we both kind of have, we've talked about this and Zach's actually done the scam.
It's called the tax scam or the drop.
But that, I've actually have kind of a story of evolution on that scam because it was super prevalent 10 years ago.
It's not so much now.
But anyway, I wanted to, but I have seen different variations of it from guys coming in prison.
but you want to tell how you were running the scam
before you were incarcerated.
Right.
Well, what had happened was, you know,
my wife and I, we were doing a lot of different scams.
And someone approached us about,
well, what we needed was bank accounts.
So I had put out the word that I need someone with a bank account
because we want to use their bank account.
Well, a friend of ours said,
I have a girl that has like four or five bank accounts.
I'm like, awesome.
So he goes to introduce us.
to her. Her name was Tiffany and I met, it was like I was on one thing and she was on something
else. So when I met up with her, I said, okay, if you have a bank account, you know, I'm going to,
I need your debit card, right? And the account number and routing number, and I'm going to
deposit this in your account. And then I'm going to do this with it and we're going to make this
money. We're going to split it. So she's like, well, I really don't have an account open with a
debit card, and she's telling me, but what I normally do is this tax scam. I'm like, yeah,
but I'm kind of focused on getting this, you know, this debit card thing going. She goes,
yeah, but when I do the tax scam, I can normally get about $13,000. I get about $10,000 federal
and $3,000 from the state. This is up in Georgia. I'm like, yeah, but I'm kind of focused on doing
this. Do you have an available account or not? You're discarding her. Right, right. So we're like,
we're talking against each other. So she's like, well, I have this.
one, but I have to check and see what the
PIN number is and if it's still open. So she
gives me a debit card. So we part
ways and I tell the guy that sent her,
I go, listen, she's on
something else. I'm on A,
she's on B. So she's on something else.
So I don't even know if I can ever use her.
Right. So about a week later
I'm laying in bed
with my wife and
like it hits me. I'm like
that girl said something
about making $13 doing taxes.
13,000. Yeah.
$13.
I've been out too long
buying from Burger King.
But she said
something I'm making $13,000 doing taxes.
I'm like,
she said she knew how to do everything.
I'm like, why didn't I ask her about that?
So I try to call.
This is the funny part because I try to call her
and she doesn't answer.
So I spend the next two days
calling her about five times every day
and she doesn't answer.
So I have a, back then I had a spoofing service
where I could call you and make it look like
Yeah, but she's coming from another number.
Right.
So I had her home number and her cell number.
So what I did was I spoofed her
and made it look like I was calling from her house.
Do you know she answered?
Like I called her and she didn't answer.
I called her and she didn't answer.
So then I spoofed it.
It made it look like I was calling from her house
and she answered on the second ring.
So when she answered,
I just disregarded the fact that I spoofed her.
Right.
And I said,
ever been answering the phone when I call?
She goes, oh, I've been tied up and whatever.
So I said, well, you mentioned this tax scam.
Tell me what it is you need and how it works.
So she's saying basically all she needs is someone's social and birthday and a bank account
and she would file taxes for them on their behalf and it would be deposited directly
into the bank account.
So I'm like, I go, I've got about 10 or 12 people that I have this social date of birth
and bank account.
She's like, well, oh my God, we could make.
make $130,000.
I said, well, cool, because I said, we'll split it.
Well, whatever you do, I'll give you half.
So she said, well, right now, I'm kind of hurting for money.
I don't have internet and such and such.
But we, I spent the money.
I got her one of the, what is it called the,
where you can use the internet anywhere?
Hot spot.
I bought her a hot spot and a laptop.
So I gave her like $3,000.
They got her a hotspot laptop.
and said, okay, do you have everything you need to file them?
So she began filing the income taxes.
And lo and behold, about two weeks, three weeks later,
they 13,000 started coming in religiously.
Right.
Blew my mind.
Because when I told my wife about it,
she's like, you think it's going to work?
I'm like, I don't know, but she's going to do it.
So after she did it and they started coming in,
then I got very interested in it.
So then I wanted to meet with her to see exactly what she was doing.
I got the outlay of how much she said she was making, how she got the EIN numbers,
and how she was just basically inputting it in and filing the taxes and the money was coming back.
So it's as easy as just putting the paperwork in and they bring the money back.
That's how it was back in 2006.
Right, right.
So basically, I'm not sure this was very clear just for people that are watching is essentially what's happening is some guy works at Walmart, right?
Right.
And he makes, whatever, let's say $40,000, $50,000.
He's paid into the IRS $15,000 in income tax, right?
Now, at the end of the year, he files his taxes and he might get, because he does it legally,
he might end up getting $3,000 or $4,000 back.
Right.
Well, what people do is they'll get his information.
And before he can file his income tax, somebody will get his information, file a tax return for him,
with an alternative bank account number.
Right.
And so the IRS, and he'll say, like, I have six kids.
I bought a Prius.
Right.
I have a house.
He'll say all these things so that he gets back the maximum instead of the $15,000,
the $3,000 he would have typically gotten back.
He gets $10,000, $9,000, $13,000, whatever.
From the feds and state.
Right.
In certain states.
Right.
I'll say he gets back $9,000.
And the,
the IRS direct deposits that money onto a green dot card or onto, typically into a bank account or whatever.
And so suddenly, so all you have to do is you get the guy's information, you then file.
And then, of course, it's a problem for him because then two weeks later he files his taxes.
He doesn't know what's happened.
The IRS says, wait a minute, we just gave you your money.
And now there's an issue.
He has to file and say, hey, it was stolen.
That's not me.
That's not my number.
I don't have this.
I don't that.
So that's an issue.
so but they call that the drop because they're waiting for the money to drop right right it takes
about three weeks all right for it to drop so at that time right now it's way behind i mean it's way
behind because like like i'm supposed to get money back and i filed mine months ago i've never got
my tax return yet still it's way behind so but back then if you file actually these are false
tax returns they're getting money back so zach was doing that and he was doing that with this girl
and now when I went to prison, I met a bunch of guys.
I actually met this one guy who got 15 years.
His name was Russell Simmons, no relation to Russell Simmons.
Oh, that makes sense.
I thought it was the same guy, but, you know.
So this guy's name was Russell Simmons, and I remember he was there for fraud.
He got 15 years, and we had been talked, we talked a few times.
And I went to him and I said, everything cool?
Oh, sorry.
I went to him and I looked and I said, hey, so you were doing this?
you were doing the drop and he goes yeah yeah I said well how's it how's it work and I remember
he rambled through it real quick I was like I said listen I seriously want to know how does it
work like not the quick cursory version that you give all these guys to impress them like
how did you even get on to it what's the story and he was like all right all right he said so
here's what happened he owned a he had started a car dealership and he'd been running it for like
10 years. And he said, one day a guy, and he goes, it was in a bad neighborhood, a bad
area. And he said, so I was buying cars for $2,000 at the, at the auto dealer, or at the
auction, auto auction. He said, I'd buy them for $2,500. So on the average, they'll buy a car
for like $2,000. They'll clean it up. They'll sell it for $6. Right. Some of the cars get lost
and they never get payments on them. But some of them, they get paid back, whatever. So you're
basically buying a car that's worth two to three thousand dollars for almost double right so he's buying
him for two cleaning them up selling them for six and he said people make payments to me and they
typically give him 2,000 down so they basically cover the amount of money most of the money they've got in
the car and they would come in and he said you know they buy cars he was well i've been doing that and i've been
doing okay he said but one day this guy comes in and like i had a a nice like escalate or something
he goes it was pretty old he said but it was decent he said and that it was going for like 10 grand or
something. And he said, and he bought it for like three. And he said, and I remember when he bought
it, he said, he didn't think he would even, didn't even know he could get rid of it. Right.
You know, he said, because people just aren't buying cars for that. And he said, I'm trying to sell
for 10. And the guy came in and was like, look, I'll buy it cash. Can I buy it cash? He's like,
how much cash can I give you, like without you telling all me? And he was like, I mean, you can
give me up to $10,000 cash. And I was not going to be an issue. You're not going to file any forms.
He's like, no, just take the money. So he pays the guy. So he pays the guy.
So then he said, no big deal, the guy takes the car, he's great.
He said, didn't argue about the price, nothing.
He said, then another guy comes to me two weeks later, wants to buy a car that, an expensive
car I had in the lot.
And the guy was like, whatever, it's like, you know, like whatever, X amount of dollars.
And he says, look, how much money can I give you cash?
And he's like, huh, so he takes it.
He says, well, I start buying more and more expensive cars to the point where now that my cars
are selling for $15,000.
Guys are coming in saying, how much money can I give you in cash?
And so he starts structuring.
It's called structuring.
He's like, look, you can give me $9,000.
I'll give you, I'll hold the note for the extra $6,000, come in in a month and pay it off.
Right.
And then I won't have to report the money, you know, or probably still does, but he doesn't.
So the guy comes in and does that.
So he said, man, he said, this went, my cars started going from selling cars for $5,000 and $6,000 to where I was selling cars for $25,000 and $30,000.
Wow.
So now he's not buying this.
these little $1,500, $2,000 beaters, he's buying cars that are for $10,000, for $15.
He was, those guys are coming in left and right with cash, cash, cash.
So finally one guy had come in, like, bought like six cars or four cars or a bunch of cars in
like two, three months.
Right.
And he said, so he comes in and he says, look at him to buy, I want to buy that car out there.
And he looks at him and he goes, I'm going to sell you the car, okay.
He goes, can you do this?
Can you do that?
Yeah, yeah, I'll do exactly what we did before.
He goes, but here's the thing.
he said
man where's this money coming from
like it's just you and me
tell me the truth
he goes this is like
this is drug money right
I mean this is the projects
I'm near them
there's projects all around me
because this is a drug money right
and the guy goes
nah man
he goes ain't nobody's selling drugs anymore
Russell
nobody's selling drugs
because this is fraud money
hey real quick
just wanted to let you guys know
that I have a book
my personal story
it's called shark in the housing pool
and maybe Colby will put it up
or not, I don't know.
I also wrote a book about my buddy mine in prison.
His name is Walter Rossini, and it's called Devil Exposed.
I also wrote a book called The Program about me going through the drug program in prison.
It's practically a cult.
And my favorite is Bent about John Boziak, being a homeless kid on the streets of Miami
that ultimately was one of the most prolific counterfeit.
counterfeiters of credit cards in the
cyber underground. So check the links
in the description. I'll have a link to every single book
and back to the podcast. So Russell says to the guy, you know,
just tell me what's going on. What's happening? The guy says,
okay, here's what we're doing. You know,
he says, you know, we're getting information. And back then when Russell was
doing it, by the way, Russell said, like, this guy was going around
to women in the projects who didn't have jobs. Like, they're just
in the projects. They've got three or
four kids. They don't have jobs. At that point, he said, this guy was like, he would buy for
like a couple hundred bucks. He'll buy your information. The girls would give them the information.
He would then file, these guys were filing on welfare recipients. Like, they didn't even have to
have a job at Walmart or Target or wherever they're working. You know, they don't even have to
have a job, period. And they're filing. And he said, and this guy is getting the money. He's
putting it on green dot cards. Like, at that point, it was so open.
So he basically, he sells a guy of a card,
but he starts working with this guy.
Right.
Because by the way,
Russell has tons of people of social security numbers and information,
people that have jobs,
people that he's got tons of stuff in the files.
So Russell starts working with this guy,
but Russell was like,
I really didn't want to do my own people.
So he does cherry pick a few of them.
And over the next year or so,
I forget how many millions of dollars he,
he he ends up getting right uh but it's it's it's it's it's a time i mean it's enough to get
15 million dollars on a nonviolent crime for a guy that had never been arrested before so um
oh my god we'll see here i this is this is the actual yeah you could if you wanted to colby you could
actually pop the video because there's there's actually a middle dish you know what i'm going to do
i'm going to send this to you yeah yeah there so i'm sending it to you um this one
it's where Russell Simmons got arrested.
Gosh, this goes on and on.
I forget what, how much is the actual fraud?
Oh, he got refunds for, is it, attempted to make claims for $8.9 million.
He got refunds, refunds totaling $1 million, basically a little bit over $1.2 million.
Wow.
That's all he got.
So what he ended up saying was this, is that he said, he said,
said not like not all of them came in like you'd apply but they wouldn't all come in uh and and by
the time he started doing it the ira it was becoming rampant in in tampa and the irs started cracking
down like one of the things first they went to the irs and they said look all these green dot cards
if money's going to this bank don't do it don't send it to them um remember there was the russell
simmons card yes um well anyway this obviously different russell simmons so
So he said, like, they started shutting down these, these prepaid debit cards.
They would stop letting you put them on that.
He goes, and that really, that hurt it.
Then they started shutting down, like different types of banks.
Then they started telling people, giving people, pin numbers.
Like, you would put in your thing, you worked at FedEx, and you'd send in your taxes and get it back in the neck.
And then you'd end up getting something in the mail saying, hey, next year, use this pin number.
So it, and what's so funny about Russell is he was like, I would call.
like they would send me something back
and they'd say we're not putting the money on the card
you have to call us he goes most guys don't call
he would call and get them to do it
yeah yeah he'd get them he'd get on the phone
and say what's the problem
well we have some questions keep in mind he had
a lot of their information right but he also said
like I think he started going to different
he knew other car dealers
and he would go to other like they were
you know these these small car dealers
he would go to other guys he knew and get
information from them and he started
buying information from people that would
bring him, hey, I got this many social security numbers and copy of this, copy.
And he'd do that.
So he was doing it for a while.
So anyway, obviously they got him for about $1.2 million.
Right.
And he came to prison.
He got 15 years.
So he and I were talking.
That was one thing that was interesting about the whole tax scam.
Right.
But here's what, the drop.
So here's what got me really thinking, wow, this is amazing.
Is that, okay, so I started talking.
to these guys that said when they first started doing it they would file 10 tax returns
and they'd get eight of them. Towards the end they were like we're filing 20 and getting one
to go through maybe two it was that bad. Well I talked to this one guy this was the scam I think
I've told you about. First of all I don't remember the guy's name I wish I did he was such an
idiot and I remember everybody that talked to this guy was like how did he
pull this off he's an idiot right so what what he did was he knew a guy that had filed like
whatever he'd filed he'd done the drop several times he'd done several these tax scams and he
he was like first of all this guy didn't he didn't know anybody that like he could he didn't have
anybody social he didn't know couldn't even figure out how to get someone social security number
so he thought i'll do it on myself so what he did was he actually opened up a
corporation in his
grand and his dead grandmother's name.
So he opens it up one year
like let's say in December.
He waits till, so then the next
year goes by, he waits.
The whole year. So he opens up December.
Well, somehow or another, he opened up, it was only
a few months later. So let's say he opens up
I don't know when it was. September and then.
Yeah, and then a few months later, it's now it's January
and new year. So he then
he goes to a bookkeeper and he says look the company made this much money okay the company made
whatever 400,000 or 300,000 dollars and the company paid me 200,000 and they withheld taxes for
this much money so I need you to file taxes for the corporation so the bookkeeper asks a bunch
of questions and says okay and files the taxes this is obviously simple
because he wanted some receipts, wanted this.
But a lot of times, like, if it's just a bookkeeper,
like a bookkeeper will put down whatever you want them to put down.
Right.
Because you're signing it.
I'm preparing it, but you're signing it.
I'm not saying this is legitimate information.
So he explains the whole thing to the bookkeeper.
She signed, or I'm sorry, he signs for it, sends it in.
So he tells the IRS, the company made $400,000,
a company paid him $300,000.
The company withheld $50,000 or $40,000 in taxes.
So he, once it's filed,
he fought they file it he then turns around and he files his taxes to the IRS and says
I worked for this company they withheld 40,000 in taxes you guys owe me $25,000 in an income tax return
my income tax return $25,000 like he puts down all this stuff I had a I had a I got
what do you call it?
What are this?
Solar panels.
Right.
And I'm driving a Prius.
And I'm driving, like, he, everything you can get, he said, if for a tax return,
like I bought a new car.
There's a tax credit for that this year.
And there's this, and there's that.
He does everything.
He gets a check.
And he said, literally, I sent it in within a week or two.
Bam, 25 grand.
Wow.
He was like, it was amazed.
Well, he said he made 400.
But anyway, go ahead.
Yeah, what, no, he said he made, the company made 400,000.
He said the company paid him 200.
and withheld $40,000 and gave him back $25.
Okay.
Whatever.
Somehow or another, they thought that was reasonable.
I don't know.
So that was, that was, that was his, he was there for, for, for, um, he was there for, um,
he was there for wire fraud against the United States government.
I remember that was his charge.
Like, that was like the charge they hit you with, um, like, and it was also tax fraud and
there was some of the charge of them.
So he got that.
I also remember he had my same federal judge.
He and I had the same federal judge.
Oh.
Yeah.
and he knew all kinds of stuff about my judge that I was like
he was like oh yeah I looked into him I was like why
like what does that change you know so it's just kind of an odd guy
but he wasn't that sharp anyway so he did that scam and then the next year but
and nothing ever happened so he opens up like another corporation
or no no I think he does the same corporation several years in a row then he
opens up another corporation so the next year he says that the corporation by the way
when he sends in the money or when he sent in the taxes for the corporation,
he got on a payment plan.
Like he told the IRS, this is the corporation and it withheld this much money from
this employee.
And then it tells the IRS, we plan on paying you back and you send in like a payment plan.
Right.
Next year he files for the same corporation having never.
At a payment plan.
Never sending in any money, never doing anything.
right so he then files again with the IRS says that they the company paid him 500,000 company made a million dollars paid him in four or five hundred thousand withheld taxes of a hundred thousand dollars and they owed him eighty thousand dollars or something he said they cut me a check just like that so they cut him another check so he would take the paperwork he would get a tax um like a CPA to file it so he would actually do the regular bookkeeper right bookkeeper to actually file his tax paperwork which he
submit to the IRS.
Yes.
So now it's in their system.
Right.
So when he's, that he owes or paid that much money and taxes.
That the corporation did.
The corporation.
So a corporation has nothing to do with him, with him, just told the IRS, I paid him.
I paid Zach $400,000 and I withheld $100,000 in taxes that I owe the IRS.
Right.
And we're on a payment plan to you.
Here's our payment plan.
But then he never fulfills that.
He never makes one payment to the IRS.
He also tells the IRS that the company owes X amount of dollars.
Like the company also owes you this much money,
and here's a payment plan for that, never files.
Does it for like a couple years in a row.
I mean, I'm getting some of the details a little off,
but a couple years in a row.
Then he closes that corporation, or he just stops,
he just puts it aside.
By this point, he's opened another couple corporations.
So the next year, he does it again.
He did this for about five years.
One year he said he paid himself like $1.5 million.
dollars like this corporation opened up in like his dead grandmother's name by a file yeah in his
name he's doing all this in his name he's an idiot yes one they paid one point five million dollars in
paid me one point five and they owe me and and they withheld $400,000 and you the IRS owe me
$350,000 and they paid him right so signed it himself everything this guy ends up with like it was
like I got like a million dollars or something over the course of like five years.
Right.
It's ridiculous.
So what ends up happening is he then stopped for several years, by the way.
So he stopped for several years.
So he's made a few hundred thousand.
So he might be all right.
No, he's made like almost a million dollars or so, like a million dollars.
He then stops for a few years.
Now, what actually he found out this later, that the IRS actually at one point
investigated one of the two companies.
They actually went and investigated the company.
Right.
But they couldn't get a hold of anybody.
And they noticed that the company had paid him for like two or three years in a row.
Right.
I forget what that'd be amount.
Yeah.
Pay.
And but here's the whole thing.
We can't get in touch with the company.
Right.
So we have to assume the company did pay you.
So the company did pay this guy this much.
They're admitting that.
And the company never paid us, the IRS, the withholdings tax.
Right.
And then now we can't get in touch with anybody at the company.
And you know what?
That happens.
Right.
They can't hold it against you, the employee.
No.
The company's admitting that they paid you.
Right.
This is clearly a badly managed company.
Doesn't mean we don't owe you the money.
They withheld it.
They were supposed to send it to us.
They didn't.
So if you work for Walmart and make $50,000 and Walmart withholds $20,000,
and then never pays the IRS the $20,000 they withheld to you,
and then you go to file your taxes at the end of the year and say,
hey Walmart
withheld $20,000 from me
and now I'm filing for my tax
income rebate
and I need $7,000.
The IRS can't say, no.
They never paid us.
Well, no, no, no.
By law, I have to allow them
to take the money out.
It's not up to them.
That's between you and Walmart.
You owe me the money.
Yes. Because the IRS
is presuming everyone's operating
on good faith.
Right. So this guy does,
now this guy stops for a couple
years, by the way.
but money gets tight so he files again only now he's told a buddy of his about it so his buddy
his buddy he convinces his buddy to do it too right so his he and his buddy you like work on
the same company i think it's the same but might have been two different companies but they
they file they then both filed to the IRS hey the company made three million dollars the company
paid me a million dollars the company paid him nine hundred thousand dollars he gets a check back
from the eye, when he files his tax return, he gets a check back for like $200,000, $300,000.
The main guy gets a check back for like $600,000 or something like that.
Well, what happens is his buddy, he tells him, look, put the money in the bank, don't take any money out in cash, like keep it there.
They're not going to come get the money.
Because at this point, he's super emboldened by it that he's been getting away with it.
He doesn't know that they ever even investigated.
He thinks he's found a loophole.
He thinks he's brilliant.
He thinks he's brilliant and stumbled onto something because he's an idiot.
And most idiots think they're brilliant.
most smart people don't think they're that smart um so right good observation yeah observation so uh what
what ends up happening is he he so he his buddy puts the money in the bank and i mean almost
immediately blows through all the money he buys for a limited time at mcdonalds enjoy the tasty
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Remember one thing they told me he bought,
because I always remember thinking,
why would you buy that?
He bought an RV for like $200,000 or something like that.
He bought like an RV.
I don't know.
I didn't understand that.
I was like, well, what's he, what's,
I've never wanted to buy an RV.
Like, I don't know.
Like maybe he was thinking,
well, worst case scenario, I can live in the RV.
No, it's titled.
They're going to take it.
So he buys, he buys this RV.
And then he went out immediately after buying the RV and starts taking out
cash. Well, the bank says this guy, one, has never had more than a few thousand dollars in his
account at any one time for the last five years. He just got to check for 250 or 300,000,
whatever it was. He immediately spent 200,000. The rest, he's actively coming in, taking it out
in cash. And we noticed that the money came from the IRS. And guess what? The IRS, there's a lot
of scams going on with the IRS. So you know what we're going to do? We're going to call the IRS.
They notify the IRS. The IRS looks into it. The IRS comes. They grab his buddy. His buddy immediately
he says, oh my God, I didn't know, it was my, it was, it was, it was Tyler, Tyler did it.
And he tells on Tyler, or whoever the guy's name is.
I don't remember his name.
He tells on him, they come and they grab him, he gets arrested.
Here's the great thing, what always killed me.
Tyler like only got hit for like a million dollars or something like that.
Only like half a million or a million.
You know why?
Right.
Because the statute of limitations, because he had stopped for two years, the conspiracy
stopped. So they could only go back three years, which was what he had currently done. Right.
And the two years, had he never stopped doing it, they could have gone back like the entire
seven or eight years that he'd been doing it. But he had stopped. So the conspiracy stopped. That was a
new charge. Right. And because it was over three years old, they couldn't get him for the million dollars
he'd already scam the IRS ought to. So he got lucky. And I remember thinking, I think that,
somehow I think that charge only carries five years also. Um,
I think they run those consecutive because I was locked up with people that had done it in prison.
And the maximum he said he can get is five years.
I mean, I don't know.
Remember, Russell Simmons got 15.
I know.
I think they ran three of those consecutive.
They must have.
We can look.
I can look that up and tell you.
Well, he, so this guy didn't get much time either, by the way.
This guy got less than three years.
And I remember he was.
The guy that told or Russell?
No, no, the, the, the, the Tyler, you know, Tyler, the guy that got told on.
Like his buddy, I don't know what his buddy, but he probably got nothing.
He probably gave back the RV, gave back everything, probably was some of a small,
there was probably owed a little bit of money and probably got, you know,
because he wasn't the, he wasn't the brains behind the operation.
Right.
So this guy, Tyler, you know, I don't forget his name.
Anyway, this guy, Tyler, he ended up getting like, I forget, like 30 months or something.
It was under three years because I remember it wasn't enough for him to take the drug program.
And at that time, you had to have, you had to still have three years remaining.
Okay.
So towards the end
30 months I think is what you
Right so he ended up in like 30 months
He didn't have enough time
Bitched and complained the whole time
They could have given me probation
Don't you love those guys
Six months
Oh I gotta do all this time
Talked about the judge
And what a scumbagged the judges
He could have this
I'm like bro you haven't like
Yeah you know
And not just that here's what's really messed up
Like with the million dollars
he actually bought like three some of the money he spent that he kept to keep right he spent he
opened like three subway franchises so you actively have franchises out there that you're not going to do
like that's what the judge was pissed about like he didn't want to get back any of the money so he's
arguing with the judge no you can't charge me he's like oh you know i know you got lucky you know okay
right all right well i can give you this right boom so anyway so i remember when i was talking to him
And this is where the whole kind of like it had evolved.
Like he was like, and I remember just sitting there.
It was me and a couple other guys and we were talking to him.
And they were like, yeah, that's a pretty good scam, right?
What would think?
And I was like, you're an idiot.
What do you mean?
He's like, what do you mean?
Like it was great because the IRS, they had no choice but to pay me.
I was like, yeah, but they had to pay you in your own name.
Like you're an idiot.
Like you opened.
You did this in your own name.
He was yeah, but I knew it would be worth it.
if I did get caught and I was like worth it how's it worth it to go to prison for I guess he's talking about the five years
oh you mean like the million he got yeah he got millions and only had to be maybe five years listen
he got super lucky like if that had hit they probably could have given him 10 years um especially if he doesn't
want to give up the money back right uh well anyway he uh like he he was desperately always trying
to make himself himself seem super sharp like I really looked into it and I this like that but
if you talk to him for any length of time,
you realize what an idiot he was.
And anyway,
so as we're,
he was like,
well,
what would you have done?
I want what I have done.
He said,
I would have run an ad in the newspaper.
Right.
For people,
I would have said,
you know,
anything,
free government money being given away,
or home loans or personal loans,
or Fannie Mae is now,
you know,
giving away,
you know,
$10,000,
you know,
loans to anybody who,
under the poverty line or whatever.
I said I would have run an ad for 500 bucks
and 40 or 50 people would have called me
and given me their information
because they would have thought
they were going to get some loan.
Right.
Build consolidation loans.
Any kind of loan, car loans, government, FHA, anything.
You spend a couple grand
and get yourself 50 people
that give you their call up
and give you their information.
Right.
And he was like, oh, okay.
I see, what would you do?
What would he mean?
I said, well, then what I would do is once I've got
all your information,
they're going to give it to you on the phone
because they think they're applying
for a $10,000 loan
from the federal government
to consolidate their bills or whatever
that, you know,
good credit, bad credit, no problem.
Like I said, you get their information.
Then I said you could always go get a bank account
in their name.
You could always go get a debit card.
I mean, go get a,
you could order their birth certificate,
their social security card.
So I started naming off.
And then you can go get a driver,
an ID in their name.
But you know, not everything is for everybody.
Like, he seems like he stumbled upon this.
And what you're describing is in depth and detail that probably is not something he'd be comfortable doing.
I find that.
I wouldn't be comfortable doing it in my own name.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, that's the problem.
Or he should have found some volunteers.
That's what he, that this was his first attempt to distance himself.
Right.
Was to do it with this other guy.
Right.
Well, not knowing, like, now that he knows the feds, I'm sure he's like, well, I need to get someone to do it in their name, but that person doesn't need to know who I am.
Right, right.
Well, I mean, I was telling him, look, I would have gone out and gotten alternative people.
Right.
You know, and I would have, and then with those alternative people, open up online banking accounts or get a, get an ID online.
Or you think about it, if you're just talking to somebody on the phone, that person on the phone, you can say, great, oh, you have a driver's license?
Do you have a driver's license or an I do?
Oh, you have a driver's license in the state of Florida?
Great.
Can you go ahead and tell me the expiration date?
Tell me the issue date.
Tell me the, what's the driver's license number?
You can then turn around and go on one of these websites and get a card issued to you.
And if I had that information, I can open up a bank count in your name.
I don't even have to go in the bank.
That's true.
You could have done all of this online and then he could have taken that corporation,
he could have bought a shell corp.
Then filed for the shell corp on all 40 of those guys saying,
And these 35 guys made $80,000, $85,000, 87, you know, you vary it, obviously, on these guys.
These extra six guys made, you know, $200 and something thousand.
This top guy made $1 million.
Right.
Then you file for the corporation to the IRS saying how much and how much the withholding was, talk about the payment plan, and then file on all of those guys.
And I would even vary that.
I would, some of them I would file through QuickBooks, some I'd file through TurboBooks.
some I'd file through turbotax, some I'd file directly with paper, mail it in.
All the money would be direct deposit on all these different accounts with these debit cards
that aren't green dot cards, that aren't those prepaid, you know, whatever, Walmart cards,
like legitimate banks have that money deposited, withdraw all of those funds, and then take
that corporation, and I would go and I'd file bankruptcy on the corporation.
Because when you go downtown, when you go to the bankruptcy court, you basically,
walk in there, you can actually pull it off online, where you say, I'm filing. They give you a file
number, and then you just fill out these documents and you mail them to your creditors. One of the
creditors would be the IRS. So now the IRS is going to wait for the, when is the court date
going to be? And they'll even issue you a court date. Right. Would you show up for the court date?
Hell no. But it would, but you could, well, it's still, here's the thing.
To the IRS, it looks like this is a corporation that is extremely a legitimate corporation was opened.
They hired about 40 or 50 people.
They took the withholdings.
They filed their first year of taxes.
For some reason, they couldn't make their payments and they went into bankruptcy.
Then they never finished the bankruptcy.
That happens a lot.
We owe all these people this money and they pay them.
right this is look at any given time in the united states there's literally uh between 10 and 100
000 companies that have that are behind on their payroll withholding taxes right that's not an
uncommon thing there are some companies that are hundreds of are like 10 20 million dollars behind
right on their payroll withholding and that's natural for them right and they they get on some of them
i don't know if you know this sometimes they can actually not pay their employees withhold the money then
go to the IRS and negotiate what they owe the employee for the I've seen that there's commercials
for that oh yeah yeah yeah well for a corporation for individuals there's definitely those
where I owe the if you owe the IRS less than $10,000 or no more than $10,000 come to us
they'll consolidate it they'll talk to them right but that's common for corporations too yes
so you're telling me that I withheld a million dollars in federal income tax didn't pay it over
the IRS. You guys then paid $800,000 back to the employees and I can now go to you and say,
look, I know I owe you a million dollars and negotiate with them to pay them $300,000 back.
The IRS is half a million dollars in arrears. They're now in the hole. Yes. And you're going
to let me continue as a corporation. Absolutely. Like that happens. It's true. I know because I know
guys that were in the process of doing that and the IRS got tired of it and just filed charges against them.
But it does happen.
It does happen.
Because I know because the same guys had done it multiple times with different corporations.
So this is something that happens.
The bottom line is that that way you're filed,
that way the guy could have been filing 40 tax refund the drop.
Couldn't have been filing 40 of them and gotten all 40.
And the IRS wouldn't think those people had done anything wrong.
They think the corporation had done something wrong.
And the corporation went into bankruptcy and never completed the bankruptcy.
see, and that happens.
That's true.
I think it wouldn't matter either or whether he did the 40 people or the,
if the same amount is true.
Like in my...
You think you could have done with like just two or three people?
Yes.
In my experience of all the things that I was doing,
I ran across some IRS checks that were like 190.
I think the biggest one I saw was like over half a million,
and it was to a person.
So, I mean, I just think it's like it shouldn't be him,
But he doesn't have to have 40.
He could have six.
Right.
And whatever he claims to be making.
I think there's got to be, it's got to be something too, like going to a bookkeeper.
I think you'd have to know how to do the books yourself.
Yeah.
I think a bookkeeper would be like, you may, what?
Do you have any receipts?
You know what I'm saying?
Right.
I'd be scared they'd report me.
See, to me, like, if it was me, like, I mean, I literally, for the corporation,
I would have a website.
I would make, I'd manufacture receipts.
I would have leases.
Like, I would do everything fraudulent.
to create the look
that this was completely 100% legit.
That's what I'd bring to the bookkeeper.
Like they would be like,
okay, you spent how much in this
and your bank accounts?
The nice thing is I can fabricate all of that.
So they would look at it and they'd be like,
wow, this is...
For the bookkeeper.
For the bookkeeper.
Because the bookkeeper would then file it,
because I want the bookkeeper to be secure, right?
And feel confident.
But I'd also be like,
okay, look, he had a website.
So that, you know, so that if the IRS ever looked into it, like, there is a website.
Keep in mind, too.
If I made, if you do the math on this and you make half a million dollars on these refunds,
it's worth it to pay an attorney to file the bankruptcy.
So now if the IRS goes, right, the IRS goes and says, okay, look, you're the attorney.
I am the attorney.
I talk to a guy three or four times and he mailed me this stuff and he mailed me this and
mail me that. He never did mail me this or that. We never did end up going to court. He stopped
returning my my, he stopped returning my phone calls. I don't know what to say. Like the IRS has got
to be like, yeah, that does happen. The IRS, what I don't want the IRS to be thinking is fraud.
I want them to be thinking somebody opened a corporation. They ran it for about a year. They
couldn't pay their bills. They tried to get on a payment plan. They hired an attorney. They filed
bankruptcy. They never completed the bankruptcy because let's face it. The guy's broke. He's
starting his life over. He just tried to walk away.
I know many people doing when I was doing mortgages and people were like I'd be like do you have a bankruptcy and they'd go well you know I started like I had more people start bankruptcy than ever if I had them go through it like I had if you if I've talked to that's how long that stuff stays on your credit too right well if I talked to 50 people that said I you know about bankruptcy like literally 40 of them were like I started it well what does that mean well I started it and they give you these letters that you mailed to your creditors well
the creditor stopped calling.
And so I just never,
I never followed through with it.
What do you mean?
I was like, what do you mean?
Well, people stop calling. I stopped paying.
And then after about three or four years,
I started getting credit card offers in it.
I started filling out the credit card offers
and I got new credit cards.
And I just kind of forgot about it.
So I never completed it.
Right.
And you're like, and they never came looking?
No.
Because that's what happens with Capital One.
You owe $3,000.
We got something in the bankruptcy court.
They're waiting for the court.
date.
Right.
It never comes.
Right.
That allows them to cash the debt and write it off for profit and loss.
Yeah.
So at that point, it just, and eventually the person doesn't do it because eventually it kind of
falls off their credit.
Right.
It doesn't affect them so they don't follow through.
And what was bothering them the most was the fact that they were getting these calls.
Well, so it's the same for a corporation.
The guy that owns a corporation, if the corporation went under and he's made no money and
he's now claiming bankruptcy, and the lawyer's asking for more money.
He doesn't have it.
He's like, what am I doing?
Like, this is the corporation's problem.
Right.
I'm leaving.
I'm going to get a job at Ford.
My corporation that I tried to open didn't work out.
It went under.
I had a bunch of employees.
I'm going to go work, get a regular job.
Yes.
And that's what happened.
So anyway, like to the IRS, that would look extremely legit.
And then this guy could move on.
They're not going to launch this massive investigation because this is common.
So I was explaining that to him.
And I was like, that's what I would do.
And he was just like, oh my God.
I'm like, yeah, think about it, bro.
You could have a website, like everything about it that they could check.
Phone numbers issued, website, everything.
It would smell legitimate.
Right.
It's not hard to make it appear legit.
So, listen, we had that conversation multiple times.
He was just, he was like, God, man, I hate talking to you.
Hate talking to you.
And I was like.
Cover all angles.
I mean, yeah.
I mean, how many times did we sit around and just sit there and talk about scams over and over?
too many but yeah that was that now we're out here talking about it so but the the tax like you know
it's something funny the tax scam has turned into the PPP loans yes you know and then eventually
it's outrageous yeah that was that was in I think I think they just flooded the hoods with money yeah
I think they just like give all the poor zone some bread that they used to give rich people I don't
know what the hell's going on there's got to be another there'll be another scam oh yeah there'll be
another one they'll be massive they'll come in there's always going to be these
scans.
Yes.
There'll be.
Yes.
Yeah, you're like, yes.
Oh, yes.
You got to start, you got to remember to talk into.
Oh, okay, sorry.
Oh, yes.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's always like that.
You know, the other scan that was like that was like that was like when the entire economy
was crashing.
There were tons of people doing the, they were doing refi scans or doing loan modification
scans or doing.
Wherever the government.
shot money that's what they did yeah they they jump all over it and come up with some kind of
scam that's true are we what are we good you think because I am super sleepy yeah you're
falling asleep oh rough night that's what we should be talking about we should be talking about
your night long night I am tired like oh my god I want to be talking about Zach's night I should
only do yeah well that might have me awake but I still do two hours but good all right all right
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This is Matt Cox signing off, and this is...
Zach, saying bye.
All right.
See ya.