Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - Bank Robber's Best Secrets | Justin Bott

Episode Date: September 2, 2024

Bank Robber's Best Secrets | Justin Bott

For a limited time at McDonald's, enjoy the tasty breakfast trio. Your choice of chicken or sausage McMuffin or McGrittles with a hash brown and a small iced coffee for five bucks plus tax. Available until 11 a.m. at participating McDonald's restaurants. Price excludes flavored iced coffee and delivery. I pulled out of the bank, went in, you know, about the same kind of thing, had the sight line broke up. Pulled out of the bank and took off, and I was going to go up the road, take a left, and take another left, and get on the highway. So I go up here and I take a left and I see this car behind me. I'm like, okay.

So I go up a little bit farther and I turn again and the car turns again as well. So that's bad. So I'm like, okay, I'm going to keep an eye on him for just another second. And then I'm going to, then I don't know what I'm going to do, but I'm going to have to do something. Yeah. So I pull across the road instead of turning right. And as I pulled across the road, he came behind me and that's, oh shit, what am I going to do? Hey, this is Matt Cox, and I appreciate you checking out the channel.

And I've got an interview today with Alex Glass, whose real name is Justin Bott. And we'll explain that. He's a bank robber, well, a former bank robber. And so we're going to get into that in a second. Also do me a favor. And if you like the video, you know, obviously after you've watched it. If you like the video, do me a favor and subscribe,

hit the bell so you get notified. Leave me a comment, share the video. Also, check out my Patreon and Instagram. And now we're going to get into it. Where were you originally, where were you originally born? How'd you grow up? You know, that sort of thing. Okay. Well, I'm glad to be here.

I'm happy to be here on this, really. So I grew up, I was actually born in Washington State. my parents moved back here when they were when I was about three my dad was from Washington State farm boy from Washington State my mom ironically worked for the FBI nice and they met up around D.C. when my dad was in the service and she was working for the FBI so at about three years old we moved out here so she could take better care of her mom and been in South Carolina ever since most of that time not your typical guy that you might have on a show like this because I grew up with great parents, you know, solidly middle class, never saw my dad drunk, you know, mom might have

a dachry and get giggly, but that's about it. But I was just different. You know, I grew up and was curious about all the bad things. You know, I was curious about drinking. I was curious about drugs i was i wanted to be a tyrant to some degree right something in me is wired that way um even now as i'm trying to do better in life it's still just kind of wired yeah yeah that way i always look at things with an angle about how i can lead the system yeah so that's what how it started out you know yeah we were talking about that earlier and we were just saying like you know do you do you ever think about it like i'm like i think about fraud every day constantly it's just talked about this some because I did ARDAF while we were in prison, which is the residential

drug abuse program for those who don't know. And we actually talked about that how some people are just wired differently. And their mindset is geared more toward criminality and getting around the rules. You should have brought your book. I don't have it published. Oh, okay. For me, it was more about just completing a project because I was one of those guys that I've been an idea guy, my life. I've had so many ideas and tried so many different businesses, but I was never able to have the focus to get all the way through it. Right. What did you think, I'm sorry, just so we don't get off the top. What did you think of ARDAP? I thought if you're willing to go into ARDAP and admit that you're the one that's causing most of your problems, then it's a fantastic program.

That's, bro, listen, fantastic. You know what's funny? Like, it's funny because like 80% of the people they graduate are like, you know, oh, I faked my way through. And you did. No doubt you did. But the people that really work that program and have to really look at themselves and say, hey, I'm a scumbag. I put myself here. Nobody else did. Because everyone, you know, there's so many people that are blaming somebody. Yep. So, you know, that you put yourself here and you really look at it and you really say I've got to make some fundamental changes. Like I had a program the other day where i mean a podcast the other day where i was saying i think everybody should have to take that program like before you get out you should have to take that program i i agree i agree i think

that there should be some kind of program even if it's not necessarily ardap you know something that addresses how you perceive the world because how you perceive the world is different than most people do ardap wasn't even about drugs to me it's almost it's really just about criminal thinking it really is or whatever you know thinking errors or how i can't remember the term we had terminology for all that's great it's great listen jess does it all the time jess she'll say stuff to me she'll go oh super optimism oh she'll she'll make these little she'll make these little little comments i'm like don't don't don't do that she's like i'm just saying i'm just saying you're uh you're awfulizing you know you're right brings back some memories i had even heard any of that in so long but that's just yeah

if you read this you'll die laughing because you know what i did i actually pulled a bunch of my um my rsasas So, like, every once in a while, I'll throw an RSA in there. Oh, yeah? Listen, like, they're a little. Like, I wasn't trying to get the year off. Right. I was trying. I only went in the program to stay in Coleman.

Mm-hmm. So I literally did seven months, one time, six months. So I did over a year in something dropped out every time before just to stay at Coleman. But you learn so much about yourself. If you're willing to do the work, you do. Yeah. You know, but you've got to be willing to do the work. You really do.

Because a lot of guys, they do go through there and fake it. Right. But if you're willing to work on yourself, you have every tool available to be able to do that. And when we got towards the end, in phase three, I became a senior guide. And did you guys have senior guides? Yeah, yeah, they called them, you had like mentors and you had Big Brothers. That's what they called. It's all the same thing.

Everyone has a little, they'll have a little different terminology, but it's the same exact thing. Yeah. So when, you know, I became a, I became a senior guide, and I had to give a seminar. And at the very opening of my seminar and everyone that I gave after that, I would tell everybody, say, look, you have an opportunity that nobody else in the world has, most people in the world anyway. You have the opportunity to take nine months and work on you.

Right. And you have all the tools at your disposal to help you do that. So if you don't take this opportunity, it's just because you don't want to. On the street, that's a $150,000 program. Absolutely. Like if you literally, if your family was filthy, rich and they put you in some kind of, of a program like that it that's over a hundred thousand dollar easily program and you're getting it for i mean granted you're incarcerated but you're there anyway you're there anyway i mean you know

it was funny um i would call my ex-wife um and like i don't really see any difference in me you know i'm not necessarily seeing this difference but she i would call her and she would go what's going on what's wrong what's this what's that and i go what are you talking about she go you go you called called me up, you asked how my kids were. You know their names. You asked how her new husband is. You asked about this. You asked about, we've talked almost 15 minutes,

and you haven't said anything about you. And I'm like, okay, she's like, usually that's all you talk about is you. Like, I didn't even know you knew my kids' names. And I was like, wow, what a selfish prick. Like that it's so, that subtle change was so noticeable. To her. It's, yeah, it's definitely, it's definitely mind altering. Yeah, I mean, yeah.

And people see it. You know, they recognize, you know, it's like they say about people with, you know, some mental illnesses that take medication. Your loved ones can always tell when you go off your medication. Yeah. They're the first ones to be able to notice. So it's the same kind of thing. But, yeah, RDAP was really how I got to where I am now because I came, I became a senior

guide. So for the third phase, which was the last three months of the program, you know, I was helping people. And I remember one of the, what they call them, DTSs, the drug treatment specialist, he came to me and I was good with my living situation. I was fine where I was. And he's like, listen, I got this guy coming in. And I think you could be a good help for him. I think you guys will get along good. You know, he's got some stuff he needs to work on.

I'm going to put you up in a room with him. My first thought was, shit, man. a problem. You're giving them to me because it's a problem, not because you're trying to help me. Yeah, not because you're trying to help me. So got up there, met the dude. He's a biker from Detroit,

was a gang member in one of the biker clubs in Detroit. But me and this guy hit it off like nobody's business. We're still in touch now. He's out. I'm out. I've seen him since we've been out. Squirrel, what's up? He,

but he and I had some really good talks. And he was in Ardap for the right reason. And he wanted to do things differently. And that was where I kind of got, said, okay, this is what I want to do. I want to be able to go out here and help other people. Because one of the things that I was pledged with all my life was I always struggled with jobs. You know, I'd work a job for a year and a half, get pissed off at management and quit. Because it was just hard for me.

I always wanted to do my own thing. So, um, shit, man. No, so you like, you enjoyed helping him. It was the first time that you, I get what you're saying. Yeah. You liked helping him and it felt good and you felt like it was right for you. Yeah. So that's the path I've decided to go down now and that's where I'm at.

I spent 45 years being, you talked about being selfish and just caring about yourself. I was the same way. I wrote my story up for something. I think I described myself as a taker. Yeah. And that's really what I was. I just, whatever I could get something from somebody, I would do that. So I made the decision pretty much in our adapt.

to spend the rest of my life being a different kind of person. Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, it's, you know, it's funny. It's just life in general. And we'll get into all that, but so I can, we can get, we'll just get through this and jump back because we kind of jump the head. But the truth is, is that, you know, is that in prison, I definitely learned purpose. Like, to me, I know, my purpose was just getting everything I wanted.

Right. You know, that was my purpose. And that, you know, I went to prison and then I realized, well, I really enjoy, you know, I enjoy writing. I enjoy talking to other people. I enjoy talking about, you know, what they've gone through. And I do, and I enjoy that. And unfortunately, the, the things and the people that I find the most interesting are the people that have done, you know, that are, are, and were involved in criminal activity.

Right. But also having gone through that whole thing and learning, I also realize that, like, I can't be, like, if you're doing, if you're doing dirt, you know, like, I can't be around you. Like, if you did it and you got an interesting. stories like to me you're you're an interesting person now you've had experiences as a as a result of as a result you know to the the guy who you know worked a regular job right and has you know have a wife and two kids you know I wish I could have been that guy and I'm not I'm not knocking that guy like I have I know guys that will knock that guy like oh yeah he's not happy he's not yeah but I he probably is happy he is like I wish I had been that guy it didn't work out but I always find the guys that

have done crime interesting but the truth is if somebody was currently doing crime like i don't want to be around you like like you did it you went through it you learned something you moved on like that's an interesting person to sure but the people that get trapped in it and can't ever move forward right well now you're just stuck in this rut and and and you you know if you're lucky you you figure it out and if you don't well then you end up dying in prison or you know or you end up you know you end up on the street or something like it's it's never going to work out to your advantage no and i i think there's there's always those two kind of people in the world you know what i mean there's there's the people that have gotten locked into that lifestyle i think that a lot of them have gotten there

because they just honestly don't know any better you know they they weren't raised with any kind of manners they weren't raised with any kind of morals they just don't have that um i had a sally one time right before i got out he'd been locked up for 24 years for manufacturing meth right okay during the conversations we had he told me i can't wait to get out there i'm gonna start cooking meth again and i'm gonna party hard one good time before i come back and basically die in prison oh i with listen i i i didn't know i don't know that guy but i know 50 or 100 guys that are exactly like like literally you're listening to this guy work on his next indictment yeah it's like you are right now working on your you haven't made it on the street you're already working on your

next indictment you're already working on it yep so those guys are out there and most people never meet them no no because they're always in prison yeah they'll make it out for six months to a year and they'll go right by if they make it out of the halfway house if they make it out of the halfway house we have one guy show up at the halfway house and within two hours to be in there he was in the bathroom smoking meth made it three days i think so they sent him about i hate the last laugh because it's really not fun, but I don't know what else to do. I can't cry about it. It's like, I don't know the other person, but it's just like, what are you fucking thinking, bro? Like, how good is that drug? I don't know. I don't want to find out. No. But yeah, they're

definitely out there. And, you know, I work in recovery work now. I'm a certified peer support specialist. Right. Which is like kind of like a low level, entry level counselor type person. basically what they do is they use their life experience that they've overcome to help support others that are going through the same kind of stuff. So I've seen this. And one of the things that we talk about a lot is how until somebody's ready, there's nothing you can do for them. You can't plant some seeds, let them know that you're there when they're ready.

But until they're ready, they can't do anything. It was the same way with me. I was drinking every day. I was waking up and drinking every day. Everybody tried to talk to me. My parents, they tried to talk to me, and my friends tried to talk to me. my friends tried to talk to me, but until I was ready to do it, nobody was going to get through. Well, let's go back to, so you were, let's go back to, you know, the genesis of that, which was, you know, you were in school, you went to high school.

Would you go to high school? Went to high school. South Carolina somewhere. Upstate, upstate South Carolina, Spartanburg area, Greenville, Spartanburg's this town's up there. Went to high school was constantly in trouble. Right. You know, not big trouble, just more shenanigans. and a lot of it just being lazy and not wanting to do my work.

Right. It's actually really interesting because I got awarded an award on Senior Awards night because I was in the Deca Club, which was like business club, basically. And they had competitions, and I ended up going out to San Jose, California, to compete in the national competition because I'd done so good at the district and state. Right. Okay. So senior award night comes around.

I get an honorable mention and a little award for going and doing that. next night was graduation i didn't graduate on time i didn't have all my units i didn't have all my credits i ended up having to go to night school to get my diploma to be able to to do that but um i've all i've always known not in an arrogant way that you know i'm i'm a smart guy but i'm stupid in a lot of ways too or at least was yeah so um no i get i'm the same way yeah i did that sometimes i'll work diligently on something for weeks and weeks and weeks and super focused. The problem is,

is typically when I do that, I disregard everything else that's keeping me going. That's always been a problem for me. Right. No, and I can totally get that. So, got out, 1990, I graduated,

went into the Army. My brother had been in the Army. My dad was in the Army. So it just seemed like a thing to do. Try to make things right, go in the Army, do this. I remember my parents being a bit surprised

that I made it through basic training. They were so happy when I made it through basic training, but I ended up screwing that up. You know, I ended up... Were you still drinking at that time, or were you big drinking? I wasn't really doing it that much at that time. I was 19, so it was just beginning. Okay. But I went to Germany in the Army, ended up getting caught up in some shit there and got kicked out of the Army. What was, what? They had a, we were in communications. I was in a communications division and over in the barracks at that time they had these what they called USA direct telephones any button that you press would get you an AT&T operator and then you place either

your correct your collect call or your credit card call well being in communications we figured out there was a little knob down there that you could switch and if you switch that knob it would dial direct okay and so we did that and when I got called in you know, I'm 19. I don't know what the world's really like. So I told them how it was done at the MPs or whatever. And so because that happened, they blamed it on me, gave me the rat for it, kicked me out of the army. Okay. So, was it an honorable dish or dishonorable or was it just? It's like right in the middle. There's honorable and mine was other than honorable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it wasn't quite general, but it was, so anyway,

I missed out on all veteran benefits and whatnot. So, but the bigger point, is it this was a life pattern of just you know going a year or two yeah I would go a year or two and be able to to keep my shit together and then being the key self-sabotage I would just blow it all up for no particular reason right so you go back to the states so what happens come back to the states um fall in with my same old friends we're out partying all the time this and that and the other always having that criminal mindset we were always looking at stuff you know how can we do this how can we do that um about three years after i got back maybe two and a half three years after i got back um me and a buddy of mine ended up doing a

burglar at a restaurant that we worked at or he worked at um so i got in trouble for that did a little probation it was the first real trouble i'd ever been in so um it wasn't too bad but got a little probation um did that and then so yeah you did you did the burglar i mean you didn't turn yourself and like the cops arrested you? Did you get caught the middle of the burglary or just something led to you? No, it led to us because they figured it out pretty quick. Yeah, they did figure it out pretty quick. There was some things said.

I think we'd been drinking that night, actually, when we did the burglary. So it was pretty sloppy and whatnot. Right. So. Oh, I know a guy who broke into a guy's house. Yeah. Stole his wallet, went and used all of his wallet, used all of his credit cards, broke back in the house to put the wallet back.

and left his ID in the guy's hat. Yeah, that's ridiculous. Yeah, I mean, it's funny, you know, like we were talking about, adrenaline gets going, you get all excited, you get, you know, you just, you just fuck up. Yeah, yeah, you do. So we did on that one. We got busted and whatnot, and it wasn't too long after that. It was, that was about 92, 93, I think.

And I just kept partying, you know, partying, doing everything, drinking, pot. acid. You should love acid. Did a lot of acid back then. That was in my book, there's a little bit about that that all the acid used and whatnot. But anyway, so about 1995, I was with this girl and I kept throwing this idea at her of Robin Bank. So neither one of us wanted to work. We want to just keep partying. So 1995, November and December, 1995, I finally convinced her to jump in on a bank robbery. So we talked about this, like the genesis of that idea was point break. That was, that was as much of an inspiration for me to do that as anything else was.

I must have watched that movie 20 times. Can quote you all kinds of stuff. It's a great movie. It really is a great movie. I feel mad. Like, Connor has no idea what point break is. Even if he does, he only knows the new version, which is nothing compared to the old one with kiana reeves bro when he was Patrick Swayze yeah young and then um what was the other

guy then was it Nick um it wasn't Nick Nolte what's the Gary Busey Gary Busey yeah Gary Bucy was his partner in there I feel bad for you bro like the new movies there's just nothing compared to the whole movie no no great movie there were great movies came out in the 80s and 90s the dead presidents they're wearing the mass they're doing the robberies like that listen i'll bet you that movie got thousands of banks robbed thousands of them it made bank robbery look so fucking sexy yep and it and it did you know that's what all those movies did um yeah right up until everybody starts getting shot and killed and falling out of planes and just fucking yeah people always forget that they do forget that i love crime movies i always forget

about the part when they go to jail for fucking 20 years well you know that's not going to happen that happens in the in the in the in the in the in that groups they call that play in the tape all the way through yeah you got play it through all the way to the end not just the good parts too so I suffer from super optimism yeah I suffer some super optimism as well you know I never wanted to face the consequences of what I did but I was like I can do this I can do this I'm smarter than them I'm better than yeah yeah me too make what all of us think isn't it yeah right up until the judge says fucking 26 years yeah then it's like I was I was off I somewhere

I have time to think about it now, though. Yep, somewhere I got off on my path. So, yeah, we were just hanging out, partying all the time. And she was working a little bit here and there, but, you know, money runs out. We didn't have anything. And we kept talking about it late night, drug fuel conversations. And after about a week, she was like, okay, let's do it. I'll drive the car.

You're going to go and do everything. So I went by Walmart and got a devil's, mask and put it on and had her pull up to the bank. I thought about all this all the way through. You know, I planned it and thought about it. I watched point break about 20 more times and realized you couldn't go into the vault. You just had to stay at the drawers up front, you know, kill time at the vault. Um, so we, we talked about it for about another four or five days. And then we went and did it. And the first one we did, um, how did you do? How did you do? know what bank did even rob like did you i lived in this apartment complex and across the street there was

a bank that had a unique setup it was just the perfect setup there was privacy fences on three sides of the bank and then on one side of it was a shopping center and then it was at a big intersection where the roads uh crossed like this there was a little shopping center right here convenience store right here and the bank was right here with three privacy fences around it and a residential area behind it. I'd been looking at it. Ever since I moved into the apartment, I was like, that'd be a great bank to Rob. So we went and did that. And she dropped me off. She pulled up to the convenience store that was at the corner, killed 15, 20 seconds, because I'd already timed it all out how long it was going to take me to do everything, you know, unless something went awry. And so then I ran through

the shopping center to the other road and she pulled up perfect timing pick me up and we will get out of there um well you missed the bank robbery part what have they didn't you went in the when you went i wasn't going to talk about all that no so um wow it's i haven't really recounted it i guess in really specific terms you know since then so uh forgive me if i'm a little slow sometimes. No, I, I'm just curious, like, you know, and we've, we talked about this, you know, off, like, this is, you know, I've talked to guys who do podcasts, and they're always like, um, like I've had guys

actually say, well, I don't usually want to talk, talk to the guests, you know, before the podcast. And it's like, really, because the, I'm like, oh, I always thought, oh, that's rude. You're being a jerk or whatever. But the truth is is that, like, we had a great discussion. Sure. About adrenaline, about, like, you know, going in, like, and that's what I'm wondering about It's like going up to, like me walking into a bank with fake credentials and everything.

I have a certain, you know, the whole thing, you know, the adrenaline, you walk in. I know certain things. And I'm just wondering, like, were you, did you think about changing your mind? Like, were you, when you're walking towards that bank, are you just like, like tunnel vision? That's it. Okay. So it's like. Tunnel vision.

I'm doing this and that's it. Yep. Yep. I had tried to do it a couple times myself and honestly pulled up in front of the bank and was just like, tried to psych myself up, whatever. No, just can't do it. So I think it was having somebody else involved maybe

that pushed me to go do it. So we pull up. She had went in maybe four or five days earlier to just do something fake to see if they had a security guard or not. So we knew there wasn't a security guard So I didn't have to worry about that It's a fairly small bank There was like maybe two three tellers

I don't remember because I had tunnel vision the whole time So two three tellers you know one person in the office something like that Got my devil's mask on I got I got a hoodie on so that I can cover myself up completely Had on dishwashing gloves actually because the vinyl gloves weren't that big of a deal yet You know you get in the boxes that they've got now right So I dishwashing gloves because they would grip money good I wanted to have everything covered so I wouldn't leave any hair, DNA, anything like that.

This is my funniest thing is I used a BB gun. Are you real? An unloaded BB gun. I knew I was going to shoot anybody. I didn't want to hurt anybody. I know a guy that used a pellet gun and fired the pellet gun. In the middle of the robbery, he said his adrenaline, he was yelling, people weren't getting down fast enough.

He goes, so I pulled the trigger. and it ricocheted off the ceiling and hit a woman in the in the calf and she screamed ah i've been hit and she falls down and he said i he panics and runs out of the bank never got any money he's like oh my god i shot her it's like how did you think you shot her you had a pelican it's like i don't know i don't know i don't know it wasn't seeing straight you you can't think when you're doing that i mean it it all is a blur i mean it really is you know at that time I was 23 years old. I've been watching point break.

You know, I go in like a gangbuster, got this gun, devil mask. I'm all hooked up. I go over, vault the counter, just go straight over the counter. Right. And start waving the gun around. I think I had a pillowcase at the time to put the money in. Dillies double money, blah, blah, blah, blah. Did that jump back over the counter and was gone.

Were you worried about die packs or anything like that? Not really. I had a friend of mine. one of the guys that I got in trouble with during the burglary, we had talked about doing a whole lot of things. And his mom was actually a bank teller. Okay. So when we started getting into doing some of this kind of stuff,

he started talking to his mom and asking questions to find out, you know, what was what. So we knew about what diapaks look like. They're a little bit thicker and they're heavier than a regular stack of money. So I knew kind of how to identify them, but mostly I just wanted to see if I could do it. think at that point um so went in there vault at the counter had him fill the bag up got out that's that when you said tunnel vision that was really about the best way to describe it um

when you start going in there that's your sole mission and in my mind you've got to get away yeah yeah so if there's a pile of shrubs or whatever out there you're going through that shit yeah um so you're going through over under do what you're going through over under no like I'm yeah yeah no matter what uh and i've also come to the conclusion that fear will outrun anger if somebody's mad at you and they're chasing you and you're scared of them you're probably going to run faster than they are because you're going to get that adrenaline going so well when you go in the bank i mean like like the it's just a bunch of tellers like they immediately just go in the drawers and just start handing it over the money right away like that nobody puts up a fight nobody says

anything they just they just they kind of stand there in shock oh they stand there in shock for a second So we kind of have to prod them along, you know, tell them, do it now, you know, put it in here. So, because they'll just stand there and shop until you guide them. And they're trained. I mean, they're, like they're, they're trained to don't give the guy any trouble. Just give them the money immediately. It's not your money. Give it to them.

Get them out of the bank. Like, they wanted to get you out of the bank before something happens to us, customer or, right. And that was one of the things that I found out from that friend of mine who talked to his mom was that they are trained to do whatever. In fact, one of the ones that I did. did. I carried in a walkie-talkie with me. And I told them, I said, don't hit the alarm. I got a police scanner. I'll know if you do. Right. I didn't know it until later after I got arrested and everything. When I looked at the paperwork, I found out that they did not hit the alarm. Right. They waited until I left and called 911. So if I would have gotten to do any more,

if I would have had that knowledge, I would see if I could make them cook like a chicken or something, you know, just something off the wall just to see. So you got the money. and you're out of the bank out of the bank we take off we'd found a route that would get us quickly to another town and her friend worked as a bartender in applebees so we said we'll get there as quick as we can right and then she'll swear we were there the whole time at applebees right right right so we did that and uh went had a couple drinks just for appearances and we went back out of the car and started looking at everything um what what year was this in 1995 november of 95 great because there's no it's not like there's cameras on every right now

there's cameras just everywhere everywhere they can walk around they can do a small perimeter and find somewhere where they've got your tag number somebody some yeah some some business someplace has a tag number something yeah but back then we didn't have to worry about that you know they weren't even they weren't even on the outside of the banks um so i had her pull right up to the front and drop me off at the door um so we got home and we went through the money and we had five thousand dollars yeah yeah yeah they i heard that like the average bank robber gets 3,500 bucks. Like, that's the average or something like that? It's not very high. No, I mean, that was, that was, I heard that, by the way, I heard that before I even went to prison. I don't know

if it's higher now, but five grand. Yeah, got five grand. I was mad as hell. Not going to lie. I'm like, man, we just robbed a bank. We got $5,000. You're looking at like, with a gun, because it doesn't matter that it's a pellet gun. At that time, it did. Oh, it did? Yeah, the law had changed since then. So I, like, seven years, like minimum, you're getting set like seven. Just for a gun. Yeah. Back at that time, it was just counted. I think is a weapon. Okay. But it wasn't considered a firearm because it has to be propelled by an explosion.

Right. So, yeah, we're mad as hell. You know, we've got $5,000. That goes pretty quick in any kind of world. And if you're partying, it goes even quicker. Yeah. So a month to the day, a month, December 7th, 1995, we found another bank we were going to do. And this- Your girl's down.

She is. She's down for anything, bro. That's- Yep. she was because she's robbing the bank she's probably thinking no no I'm just driving the car no you're getting charged

your bank robber conspiracy to rob a bank the way they've got it turned is a hand in one is a hand in all yeah so if you have anything to do with it you're all the way in but yeah she was she was as dumb as I was so so we ran through that party and you know just that's not an exciting story at all

so we found a second one and we went to do it and it was set up a little bit differently. So there was a big parking lot for a grocery store and a couple of stores beside it and there was a couple of trees over there. So she was going to go parking the parking lot

and I was going to hit the bank and then go over to the parking lot and get in the car. Went into this bank, same way. I think I had a little bit of super villain in me and wanted to be notorious, so I wore the same devil's mask as I did in the first one. Nice. So, yeah.

Make sure there's a link. Right. You got to do that because it does seem. It does seem cool to have a theme, you know? It does. You know, I wanted to be the Joker or something. In the movie, it seems in the movie version is cool. But in reality, it's like, I really want to do this vastly different.

Right. Like, catch me for one. They got me for one. Yeah. Yeah. So. But I get it. I'd have done the same fucking thing.

Yeah. You know, so did that, went in, um, did the same exact way, had, you know, the mask, hoodie gloves had the BB gun vaulted the counter like I did before and jumped over the counter and told them to fill the bags up they fill the suitcase or the pillow case up and I thought about that $5,000 and I said this ain't right where's where's the big money where's the other money well as it turns out the they've got a top drawer which is the till like you'd have a grocery store or something yeah there's a drawer underneath it this got all the banded money where they can refill their drawer. So I was like, yeah, put all that in here too. So they put all that in there.

I take off out of there. And there was, as I run out the back door of the bank and go this way, I ran by the drive-thru. And there was a woman in the drive-thru sitting there gawking at me. So I ran up to her car and I tapped on the window. And I was like, you've got to go. And she just looked at me and I said, go. And she beat feet out of there. I still don't know to this day if that's the person that followed us, but somebody followed us from the bank, went back to a friend of mine's house that I was staying with at the time, dropped my car off and got her car, switched everything over,

went to her house to do all the count of the money. So we get back there, and I took all the money into the bedroom and was sitting there starting to go through it and count it, had pencil and papers, I'm all right, everything. Now I'm all excited. yeah, this is going to be a lot better than $5,000, you know, and all that. I get started with it, and it's a great big pile of bed, and I'm all happy and whatnot. And she comes walking there, and she's like, hey, baby, there's a cop car outside.

I was like, just one? She said, yeah. I said, okay. Well, if it's just one, that's fine. And she said, uh, now there's two. Shit. You know? So.

Well, sweetie, you're going to have to take this money and go out there and just admit what you did. Yep. so of course being the I'm going to put money on your books I'll stay out here I'll stay out here and take care of you exactly yep so

we said you know we're just sitting there stunned for a moment and her sister lived next door to us there's family land and all that so we get a phone call and it's her sister and she's like

there's people from the FBI over here saying that y'all robbed a bank and need to come outside which I already knew once we knew there was two cops out there that's I know but you have to you have to admit like even when things were going wrong in my case there was still this little part in me that said it's a coincidence it's not they're not going to figure it out it's not like it's up right up until you hear the voice and they say it's like then it's

just like there's just makes it real it's so real it's like suddenly there's just there's just at least before there was a one percent chance yeah that sliver well my philosophy when I plan these things was always that if I can get away from the bank, you'll be all right. I'll be fine. Yeah, but now you've got this money with bands on it. Yeah, that wouldn't, that didn't mess us up. I mean, there was. I would think the bands could be tracked back to that bank or something.

Like, I mean, I would think something I would be concerned. Well, we got caught on that one, so. Yeah, yeah. No, no, that's what I mean. I'm saying, like, if you're, I thought you were trying to say that I figured even if they caught me when I was away from the I could still say that wasn't me, but not if they've got the bans on the money. Yeah, no. I got what you're saying.

Okay. Yeah. So, you know. They asked you to politely come out. They ask us to politely come out. I go and look out the window and by that time there's like 10, 12 cop cars out there. And they're all behind their cars with guns out because they think we got a gun because I had a BB gun. Yeah.

So they think we're armed and dangerous. And that's when I decided I wasn't ready to die yet, I wasn't going to run out there and a hail of bullets. Yeah. Because that was my idea. It was, fuck it. I'm not going to let him take me alive. Yeah, that's a bunch of macho bullshit. What was it, Sundance?

What's the Sundance Kid? Butch Cassidy and Sundance Kid. It sounds, it's beautiful. It's very romantic. It is. Yeah. Only if you get to leave the theater afterwards. That definitely helps.

So we sit there for maybe three or four minutes. And like, what are we going to do? What are we going to do? Well, stupidly, we hide the. hide the money and mask and everything under the bed and they'll never find it there right this is here when we got here we've been set up yeah right um so we we go out and surrender you know and that was really all we could do um they charged this with two banks um i got 63 months i guess so five years got into the federal system in 96 and it was a completely different federal system back then

as two. They were they were kind of phasing out the club fed days. Right. You know, so it's still kind of sweet, but not as sweet as it was maybe five or ten years earlier. Um, so that was the first time. Yeah. Um, back in 95 and 96. Um, didn't do much in there really. Just, you know, where'd you go? Uh, spent most of it at Butner up in North Carolina. Um, I signed up just to kind of break my time up to go to the drug program and they sent me to lexington kentucky for that was that ardap mm-hmm oh okay yeah it was i'm not even sure if they called it ardap back then but it was something okay it was it was an intensive residential drug program all right so i went up there didn't like it purposefully pretty much flunked out just messed with the dTSs and after we're like

yeah get out here so went back to butner and finished it up there um got out of met a girl, got married, bought a house, was doing great. Everything's fantastic for about seven years. And I think it was that memory of prison that kept me on the straight and narrow for a little while tried to build something. And then one day, about 2007, I was just like, this isn't what I want. I'm leaving. Left her, gave her the house, said, I'm out. So I went off and that started a whole other spade of just partying all the time you know jumping into this relationships whatever I was good for 16 years and that's how long it stuck with me I guess and then I got into another situation with the girl and what were you doing for work at this time like warehouse work menial general labor

right stuff really you know um like I said before I always had a problem with the job because I knew that they were just using me to make money for themselves and get themselves rich. And I always thought enough of myself to think you should be the guy up there at the top that's... Then you got to work and work your way up there. You do. You really do. Or you hit the lottery or you have to have a rich family member? Rich parents will help.

But you don't have any of that and you work your way up. Yep. You got to work your way up. But at that time, I wasn't willing to do that. So I worked all jobs here and there, tried business ventures with friends and whatnot. but when you're partying all the time, that's your, that's your, your mission. You're not, you're doing this to be able to pay for partying. Yeah.

You know, so nothing ever went anywhere. I had good ideas and had a lot of people that supported what I was trying to do, but I didn't have the follow through and whatnot to be able to pull it together. So. Yeah, I've shot myself in the foot quite a few times too. Man, I'm telling you, dude, I'm like, I'm like the world master of self-sabotage. And that's one of the things that I'm most aware of now of anything else, is before I make any kind of big decisions, make myself stop and think about it for a minute.

Do an RSA? Huh? Do an RSA. I can't even remember what it stands for. What is our rational self-analysis? Rational self-analysis. I remember doing those damn things all the time. Good Lord.

But that's what a lot of people need. You have to stop for a minute and think about what you're doing. Normal people do that. Like they don't necessarily need it. You know, fuck-ups need that. Like I need that. I'll take the shortest route and but like a normal guy who's lived a good life and has and his thought processes are normal he just naturally does it so he doesn't understand how you came to your your analysis of the situation you know because you immediately snap or I snap or I immediately say the first thing where these guys are are a normal person's like well I want I'm going to say this but if I say this this will happen and that'll happen and this will happen but if I do this then this is that and that's what I want to happen so I'm going to do this yeah I don't think that's do that might you know well i do now but normally it's bucket let's let's fake it let's change this

let's fix this let's do this call so-and-so i'll verify the employment like i immediately go fraud i immediately think this is the easiest quickest way to get what i want and it's guaranteed yeah even though it's not no i think it is yeah it's the same thing like it works in your head yeah um one of the things that i always said to some of my guys in ardap and stuff was if you worked as hard at trying to do something legitimate as you did it trying to do dirty shit yeah then you'd probably be successful at it because you work very hard to be in a criminal. And you keep it. Yeah, and you get to keep it.

Nobody gets to come along to take it. You don't have to look over your shoulder. You don't have to go to prison. You don't have to disappoint your family. None of that stuff. So not all of that 16 years was a struggle. There was some of it that was good. But I still had this mindset of just, I really don't know how to explain it other than just being a negative, angry person.

You know, every little thing that would come my way that didn't go my way, it was terrible and it would spiral into just being a miserable thing and i had this one girlfriend that i had after i after i left my wife we were together for about a year and on our final big breakup um she just kept taunting me she was trying to get me to hit her and she said you know what you're gonna do you're gonna die miserable alone and unhappy and man that shit hit me you know i was like damn you're not happy you're you're almost never happy something can always be better you always find something wrong with shit so that was one of the big things that i worked on you know in the second time and i finally got it turned around but yeah a lot of people just like i said before you know

there's two different kinds of people there's people who don't understand okay why don't you understand that hard work pays off i just don't think that way we don't think the same yeah so i trudged along and and and managed to survive but that's really all i was doing was surviving um being a taker like i said before you know just just just um reeping the reaping the benefits of what my people who loved me had done and borrowing money and staying at couches and everything else um just being a user and a taker all right so i was living at my parents house because they've got an RV and we're gone and i met this girl and ended up moving her in with me and a couple of kids and we ended up having a child and that's when everything really

changed for me in a couple of ways because in the first way that it changed me was it made me wanting to be this good person but i never wanted that much responsibility in my life as having a child so it kind of drove me a little bit insane at the same time and her and i fought constantly we were together for five and a half years and book club on monday gym on Tuesday date night on Wednesday. Out on the town on Thursday. Quiet night in on Friday. It's good to have a routine. And it's good for your eyes too. Because with regular comprehensive eye exams at Specsavers, you'll know just how healthy they are. Visit

Spexsavers.caver's.cai to book your next eye exam. Eye exams provided by independent optometrists. And out of all that time, we probably actually lived together maybe a year and a half, two years. The rest of the time, we fought so much that I couldn't stay there. We'd just fight all the time. Had all kinds of arguments constantly, the pressure of being a dad, couldn't find a regular good job because I couldn't stop drinking long enough to be able. I think the last year that I was out, I went through four jobs because I'd show up drunk. And they'd fire me. They don't like that.

No, 10 not to. Yeah. So I was at a point where I didn't want to live anymore. You know, like we were talking about before, I told one of my best friends when I was 30 that if my next 30 was going to be like the first, I didn't want to live them. I was just that miserable of a person inside and everything. So at 45, in the situation I was in, I was pretty much ready to kill myself. I was just that low. Right.

But I had this daughter, my only child. And how can I do that to her? you know um so in my mind i think i had to do something to dramatically change the course of my life um suicide wasn't going to be it didn't have any money screw it i'm going to rob banks again um threatened her with that a few times and then i finally made good on it i was like you know couldn't work couldn't stop drinking couldn't do any of that screw it i'm gonna go back to what i know I did it back in 95, so I've learned lessons from it. Right.

Maybe I'll be better out of this time. So I started looking for banks. The first one I found was in my hometown, and the layout was really good. I was doing it by myself. I didn't have a driver this time. So, you know, I made sure I did things like parked far enough away from the bank that cameras wouldn't see my car. But you could still get to it. But I could still get to it.

it and there was some kind of sight line something breaking up the sight line you see what i'm saying so like so i get the other side of something and then go away yeah so the tellers don't run outside and say he was in a blue ford exactly yeah no tags no cameras no nothing just far enough away to where i could get to it quickly because what i always figured when i was doing them was a minute a minute or less door to door from the time i laid my door to the time i get back and that's about what it takes yeah Um, so I parked on another street and I remember when I was running to the bank, um, didn't have my mask on yet because I wasn't close enough. And I just stopped. And I stood there for a minute. I was like, Justin, are you really going to do this? I was like, you're fucking A right. I am. And ran in there. Didn't use a gun this time. Um, didn't use anything. Still had a mask on, hoodie gloves, all that. I think I took a grocery bag because I didn't really. care um but having learned from the last one i just went in there i said we don't have to say much when you go on with a mask and gloves in a bank they kind of know what's already going on so um

but i'd go up with the bags and i would hand each of the tellers a bag all these are small banks i never went to anything because yeah you don't want to have eight tellers that you got to manage with one person so i went in i hand them bags i said fill them up with money i want the bottom drawers and the top drawers both got it yeah yeah not just getting those top drawers again, did that and said, don't give me any diapacks and don't give me any tracers. Right. And at that point, they're still standing there looking at you kind of blank. So I was like, do it now. And that'd get them moving. So while they're filling the bags up, I do a loop around, you know, just spin around in the bank to make sure nobody else is making any kind of moves or

anything. Right. And I take off. And, you know, seconds later, I'm sprinting back to my car as hard as I can go. Jump in the car, take off and go, pass a cop on the way. Right. He keeps on going. I keep on going. Like, okay, I'm good. I mean, no, like, even though you didn't have a gun and you didn't make a threat, you didn't, anything, they just handed over the money. Yep. Okay. Yep. That's what they're trained to do. No, I mean, I know guys have robbed them with bank. I mean, robbed people are with a note. But I also knew a guy who, he said, he said, I have a weapon. giving the money and the woman said let me see the weapon and he's so he showed the weapon and she's like her fuck and she just you know she's a veteran yeah she's been robbed before maybe many

times yeah she was kind of like let me see the weapon you know because he's got no math and he's like hey give me all the money and the thing and she says let me see the he goes I got a weapon she's let me see it and he's like oh okay you're good we're good we're good she's got bigger balls and have the convicts I know oh oh so and so you you you're going Got out of there, called her and was like, meet me at a certain spot, handed her a band with $2,000, and she's like, oh, my God, I didn't think you were really going to do it. I was like, yeah, I did. Yeah. So ran around doing what I do, you know, party and doing all that for a while.

I think we've got $17,000, $18,000 out of that one. That other one where we got busted on before back in the 90s. Oh, yeah. How much was that? I'm 22. Okay. 22 and some change. So,

figured out that was the trick. So, yeah, yeah. That was half of my logic going into this with a foggy drunk brain is, oh, you can do it better this time. You know what you're doing. So,

you're professional now. I'm professional now, yeah. So did that, got away, fine, Scott-free. You know how money is. If it's easy to come,

it's easy to go. Yeah, yeah. So that shit went quick. Yeah. So about another month later, ironically I went and hit the bank that I hit the very first time because it still had those three fences around it it still had the same setup so this time's because I didn't have a driver

I just pulled into the residential area behind the bank middle of the day everybody's at work I just pulled in somebody's driveway and there was a big enough hole in the in the privacy fence that I could squeeze through it and I already scoped it out busted in there went in no gun no note i didn't want to leave anything behind right didn't use a note and like i said when you got a mask and everything they know what it is so went in that one did it went just fine um got away 20 000 or so off of that one nice so that was about average 20 to 22 23 um ended up doing four before i got before i got caught got caught on the fourth one how did that how that happen

you or yep oh okay yep and i heard about it from a guy in jail actually well i knew kind of what went on but it was it was funny the way it happened i pulled out of the bank went in you know about the same kind of thing had the sight line broke up pulled out of the bank and took off and i was going to go up the road take a left and take another left and get on the highway so i go up here and i take a left and i see this car behind me i'm like okay so i go up a little bit farther and i turn again and the car turns again as well so that's bad so i'm like okay i'm gonna keep an eye on for just another second and then i'm gonna then i don't know what i'm gonna do but i'm gonna have to do something yeah so i pull across the road instead of turning right and as i pulled across the

road he came behind me and that's oh shit what am i going to do is this just a regular person or this the police officer yeah he was in a little hunday something or another came out of a pawn shop that was close by and just happened to see you running or just happened to pick up on what was going on so i'm a follow this dude yep and call 911 so after i got across the highway and started going down the road i had blue lights behind me yeah i knew at that point it was over so i panicked and tried to run and crashed and oh really oh yeah yeah um yeah look i just robbed a bank 45 seconds ago running from the cops is the least of my problem yeah that's the least of my problem yeah that's the least of problems. So I get blue lights behind me and I stomp on it and end up crashing into a tree.

I was going to say, you know, that we talked about the dip-packs. I knew a guy who robbed a bank with someone else, like actually took a hostage to get them in the bank, got a bunch of money, put it in there. It was a blue dye pack, had it in, they had it like in a bag, and they were driving in like a stolen vehicle. And he's like, man, we're going like 50, 60 miles an hour. and we're driving and the die pack goes off and he said you have no idea how much he said how much it blows apart he said blue apart and he said the windshield straight blue he so i'm i'm covered halfway in blue he's covered all in blue he said the windows are completely he said we're literally driving rolling the windows down trying to look out he said it's that bad he said i finally had to stop

and we ran he's we're running down the street completely blue covered yeah like it's it's it was he said And he said, and it stains, and it was over. Yep. So I definitely, I can't imagine being drive, trying to outrun the police. Especially with all that adrenaline. I mean, it's, it's so much adrenaline, Matt, that it about makes you sick. Yeah. You're ready to throw up just because it's that much adrenaline.

You know, guys will throw up, like they'll get into, I had a buddy who got into a fight. And right after the fight, we were driving, and he said, pull over, pulled over and puked. It was just the adrenaline. Like, you know, it hits everybody differently. Yeah. And it will definitely do that. That's where the tunnel vision came from. I mean, I remember specifically after that first one running to get to her car. And literally, I couldn't see anything in my peripheral vision. It was all just right in front of me, what I've got to do right now. So the cops chased you. You'll lose control and rack? Yeah. They started chasing me. I wasn't really going fast. I was trying to figure out what to do, trying to calm my mind down. Because I've still got the adrenaline just going. I'm like, you've got to stop and think. person's following you. What are you going to do? Blue lights behind me.

Shit. Hit the gas. Try to make a turn that I knew I couldn't make. Right. You know, no matter how badass anybody says they are, when you're right in the middle of that shit, it's hard to think. So, stomped on the gas, tried to make a turn I couldn't make. It was actually a little building I crashed into, crashed into the building. Tops come running up, guns, all that. Yeah.

Whatever. Fuck off. did you get you get out and or they drag you out or the car or did you get out and immediately just no he came over to me I was sitting there like well I mean I hit a building at like 45 miles an hour oh okay so you were in bad

shape yeah well I wasn't in bad shape but I was stunned you know at least airbag popped all that kind of stuff so I'm just kind of sitting there and he's next thing I know I got a gun on my face yeah all that so yeah my fear you know my fear to me that the whole out trying to outrun

the police, you know, to me, I'm already thinking, well, eventually they're going to catch me. And the truth is, I'm probably better off pulling over and trying to get out on my own because I may end up getting shot, you know, I, you know, these guys, their adrenaline's going. They think I've got a gun. If they think I've got a gun, then I end up getting shot. Right. You know, so to me, I mean, I've known guys who have been chased by the cops, and they're like, literally, like, just hit the brakes and hit the brakes, you know, pulled the emergency brake and jumped out of the car just as soon as it was done with their hands in the air.

and immediately dropped down on the ground because they were like, look, I mean, like, they'll shoot you in the car. Like, they can always say, I thought I saw a gun. I thought this. Some of the cops are super, I don't want to use the word, vigilant, but they're just overly enthusiastic about possibly putting a bullet in somebody's head, you know, and you're, you just rock the bank. You're running for the police. He's in fear. You know, and things maybe might be, you know, or they're just going to take advantage of the situation, you know, not that all cops are bad, but sometimes you've got a all you need is one dickhead end up with a fucking bullet in your head and that's all it takes and there's plenty of them out there yeah because yeah so did that um

was standing there and one of the cops was really cool to me he's like you smoke he said you smoke and i was like yeah he said go a cigarette for you a jail like yeah that'd be great so i'm standing there he moved the cuffs around to my front and gave me a cigarette and i'm sitting there smoking it and something that my girlfriend had said to me earlier that day she's like just please come home to me today. And in my drunken, stupid mind, I'm like, I got to get home to her. So I shot to run. What are you doing? I'm drunk. I'm not, you know, I'm drunk, adrenaline, whatever it is. So I run up to this one cop and I knock him down. He rolls down a hill. I find out later he broke his freaking ankle. Oh my God. So I'm like, they're just, they're going to crucify me.

But I tell you what, Matt, when it all comes down to it, when I landed in that jail cell, I passed out for like hours. When I finally came to the first emotion that I really felt was, right, it's over. Now I can try to rebuild from here. It wasn't exactly relief, but it was, there was a sense of I can't keep living this destructive life like I was. I've got to do something different. And that's where I started trying to live for my daughter and said, okay, you've got to figure out a different way to do shit. And this is your opportunity to do that.

So I got, you know, jail was, jail was 10 times worse than it was in 95. 95, 96. There wasn't a lot of gang activity. The feds wasn't that big a thing back then. No, no. The feds were, they were still looking at basically bank robbery, mobsters. Like more high, I don't want to say high brow, but, you know, more sophisticated types of crimes as opposed to now where it's basically almost like a state prison. Yeah.

It's a big state prison. It's just a big state prison. I mean, if they decide they want to get you for seven grams of coke or meth or whatever, they're going to get you with seven grams and lock you up for 10 years. Yeah. So the people that I met in prison the first time as opposed to the people that I met in prison the second time was so vast. vastly different. I remember when I got out the first time, one of the things that I said often was I met a higher caliber of person in prison than I did outside of prison. You know, we knew guys in there that, they were smuggling opium from Afghanistan. You know, had another guy that was, he was on the run for seven years in Colombia before he finally got arrested and thrown in a Colombian prison and they extradited him. So it was just, I met a lot of good people under that time. This time was completely different. There was all the gang. activity. There was all these people that run around just on dumb

shit all the time. Were you in a medium or? I started out in medium, yeah. Okay. Started out at Beckley, West Virginia. Did you end up in a low? Ended up at a low at Ashland, Kentucky. Got nervous

as hell because the first time I talked to my attorney, she's like, you know they're probably going to career criminal you over this. You didn't know what that was. I was like, okay, all I know is that means a shitload of time. Yeah. so I was like just flabbergasted and I was like well she said well I got to check it out thoroughly to make sure but I you're looking like that so and you know how public defenders are there they'll talk to you once every month or two maybe yeah yeah so I'm sitting here for weeks just bugging out thinking I'm going to prison for 20 years as it turns out the way it works is that 15 years from the last time you were incarcerated for a crime right 15 years is the cutoff for whether it's career or criminal.

Oh, okay. So they can't use those crimes against you for the purposes of career criminal. Now, I had five years of supervised release when I got out back in 2000. Had I violated and gone back to prison at any time, for any amount of time, it would have counted. Yeah. And I would have been career criminal. But because that didn't happen, and like I said, I did learn a little bit from the first one. So I didn't use a weapon.

I didn't threaten anybody, any of that. I got 45 months. Nice. I did a plea deal. I had four banks. I did a plea deal. They dropped two of them in exchange for the guilty plea for two of them. So I got counted for two bank robberies and got a 45 months in it.

Did 35 months. Yeah. Roughly. Okay. So. Yeah, I knew a guy who robbed a couple of, or I think he robbed three banks with a, with a note. He got roughly basically like 30, I want to say 36 months. Might have been 40 months.

but roughly the same amount of time. Sounds about right. I mean, and when you tell people out in the feds that are just getting in and stuff, they're like, why the hell didn't I rob banks instead of selling drugs? Yeah. Or, listen, counterfeiting, too.

It's another one that you, these guys that can counterfeit, like they tend to get very little time for something that, to me, has, could have huge, a huge potential as long as you're not using a weapon. Listen, the moment you start using a weapon, they have an issue.

With anything. Yeah. With anything. Well, see, here's the thing about counterfeiting because, of course, you know, it at 23. I'm in prison. I'm still fairly criminally minded. Right. So I'm going through the sentencing guideline manual, you know, the book they used to decide. And I'm looking for what's got the least amount of time. And counterfeiting was it. Yeah. But what I learned later on was that

the feds will actually take it and they'll count each bill as a charge. They can. They'll, they'll stack it the best they can. But if you take a plea, you know what I'm saying? But if you like go to trial, oh, no, you're done. Like that's just now we have the opportunity to really just destroy you like we can give you 30 years you could have taken three years now we're gonna give you 30 yeah because you passed 500,000 worth of fucking money like every every dollar bill is is it possibly a three-year charge yeah so um man um oh gosh oh gosh I talked to a guy the other day though actually Chad Marks yeah he actually I think got 40 years he actually went to I mean he actually went to trial it's like

you're guilty Like, what are you doing? You're guilty. He's like, I thought this. I thought that, you know. But, yeah, he got 40 years for something that he probably could have gotten, you know, 10 or 15 for something like that. I don't know, Chad, well, but we've, I've seen his post on Facebook a good bit.

He's very active in the, in the community with trying to help people out now. Yeah, yeah. And he's a nice guy. Like, he's genuinely like, well, I talked to him before we did the podcast for like 20 minutes. And just seems like a nice guy. He was telling me all the different things that he's doing. And he's like, look, you know, he got clemency or is, I don't know, it's, it's, it's, it's, I want to say clemency, but it's, I don't think it was. It was basically what I think they modify. They knock off time off your sentence. They modify it. So there's another name for it. But right. Anyway, um, or was it the second chance act because of, no, no, anyway, whatever. The point is is that he got out. He did like 17 years. And now he runs a legal, he runs a consulting firm. He also runs a, a, he also runs a, a. he also runs a what do they call it um it's like a legal he does legal work for for for people um

and he's doing some great work from everything i've seen because i've seen him getting some people off yeah well he and this other guy that was on 60 minutes like they've won like sorcery in front of the the supreme court like they've done stuff that like career lawyers who've been doing it 20 years don't do and these and he's doing great work but then again he also had 16 years the honish crime or know, 17 years to hone his craft. I mean, God's sakes. Yeah, because you have to find something to do with your time in there. You know, and it's one things we obviously said.

I'm sure you've heard it, you know, everybody that's got their own way of doing time. Yeah. Some people, you know, go grab a Bible. Some people exercise. Some people do legal work and hang out in the law library all the time. Well, that's what I said was, you know, I didn't want to play. I didn't want to join a softball league. You know, I didn't want to learn how to be a chef, you know, because they have the culinary arts class.

It's culinary arts. So I didn't want to be a chef or chef. I don't want to be, I didn't want to join a softball league. You know, I didn't want to play handball. I didn't. So I didn't want to learn to play the guitar. So you know what I was like all these things that, listen to her guys that are amazing in there. That like my man play the guitar and you're like, oh my God, like this guy is phenomenal.

And then they join bands and they're amazing. But I, you know, I just started realizing, I started talking like I would talk to someone like you. And you hear their story, maybe bits and pieces. And then one day you cut maybe even you hear it in a two hours. they tell you their whole story because they have plenty of time so they they drag it out they tell you every little instant and then by the end of it like if you can keep me you know like wow i mean like like like boziac when i talked to him we talked for like two hours or so in the cafeteria and i mean like at the end of it i was like bro we got to you got to write this down like we we got to do something

with what can we do with this this is the great story and then you know the problem is you meet so many guys like that but nobody can write their stories like they can't write their stories it's very difficult to write your own you wrote your own story it is you know it's hard it's tough it's hard to see you as you truly are so what happens is people write their stories they become like a like a superhero and it's like but that's not really you're really like as i was writing my story i kind of started to realize i'm a dickhead like this is not really if i had to rewrite it multiple times to kind of go back and realize you know you made yourself sound like a super villain but the truth is you know this was stupid you this your dickhead here you don't mention that

you were scared of death and that's what i was about to come out of my mouth was i was scared to death the whole fucking time yeah um yeah but the amount of talent in there is amazing i met so many talented people in there charismatic good people you know they just they're wired differently yeah and we know boziac and i were talking about this the other day boziac's a guy that i do um others i do uh other podcast with isn't it and we were talking about we were answering questions and one of them was like what programs would be good and we talked about ardap he and i talked about art app you and i talked about art app but the problem is is like because recidivism is ridiculous like that it's through the roof and stop do you know how fast you were going

i'm going to have to write you a ticket to my new movie the naked gun Liam nissan buy your tickets now and get a free chili dog not included the naked gun tickets on sale now august first but you're You're so set up to fail when you get out. Yeah. And I'm not saying that a lot of these guys aren't, they're just not putting enough effort in. But also, like, there's no one, I think everybody should have to take an RDAP tile, either program. Something. Inside or out.

I mean, you could scale down RDAP so it was just about behavior modification. Because a lot of it's just, RDAP really 95% of it is behavior modification. Sure. So some type of a program like that, there should be more of an incentive to take the program and pass it, you know, a year, okay, but you go through hell for that year. And if you could, you could give everybody that year, and then people go to ARDAP, maybe they get two years. So there should be more of an incentive. And then when people get out, like, I got lucky. I got out. I had like three, four hundred dollars to my name.

Right. So I had a little bit of money only because I wrote books and I got lucky and was able to actually get a book deal, a couple book deals, while I was incarcerated. And I was a part of an option of one of my books. So that money was basically gone by the time I got out. Sure. Luckily, while I was incarcerated, after going to Walmart and spending $300 of my money that I paid, you know, of my own money. Right. Luckily, a few weeks later, the option hit again. And I got a nice little chunk of money. I was able to buy a new Jeep. and get a year's worth of insurance and I had enough money

I remember I had a thousand dollars left over and I thought this thousand dollars I'm putting it aside in case anything breaks on the cheap but I saw so many people would go their family would come in they would give them a bunch of money they would you know they would help them they'd come visit them

they've got a place to stay they've got everything and with their first paycheck they're buying a $150 pair of Nike's and it's like your family gave you a chunk of money your brother-in-law got you a job

your everybody pulled together and with the first bit of money you got you spend it on a $150 pair of fucking Nike's you're coming straight back to prison and they do because their mindset is I still want to be a baller I still want to impress anybody

I still want as I cry broke all the time everything I've bought I don't think I bought no that's not true that's not true the only thing I don't buy at Ross or

Marshall's the only thing I don't buy is these t-shirts because I buy these t-shirts at Target because I really like the way they fit and you can get two for I think 26 bucks so they're like 13 bucks apiece

to me that's a lot of money for a t-shirt right everything i buy is that is at ross marshals bells everything i'm exactly the same way if you give me a million dollars right now i can't imagine spending i used to buy blue jeans that were two three hundred bucks for a pair of blue jeans i'm still have blue jeans i still have blue jeans i still have blue jeans that i bought in walmart three years ago and i'm glad yeah i mean i was actually uh when i was riding down here i had everybody come with me and we were talking you know just about your story and a little bit and stuff and and one of the things that occurred to me i was I wonder how that is to live the way you lived, you know, you had an exorbit amount of money.

And then to get out here and not have that, it had to be kind of tough. It's, and you know, I get it. It would be different if it was, the difference is it's not like I was still out and lost it. Right. When I went to prison, you know, that, so by the time 13 years goes by, and you get out of prison after 13 years of me, all the money I use, I spent on Quar Links, so I could write stories, print them out. email them to people to put into word and then send them back like i had a whole process down right so all i'm eating i'm eating soups i'm eating every meal every meal i ate at the chow hall yeah and you know look some of those meals are good some are good meals hey some are horrible some are horrible but you know

it listen when it'll fill you up yeah you you'll stay a lot you can be fine yeah um didn't go to commissary a lot And what I did, I bought coffee or creamer. I taught the real estate class, so guys would give me coffee and creamer for, I hustled certificates. Ah, yeah. But getting out here, I think after going through ARDAP and being so humbled that, and even now I get out and I have those moments where I want to buy a new vehicle. And I can afford that.

And it's like, bro, what are you doing? You've got a brand new car. Like I bought her, I got a little Jeep compass. To me, I would say it's a chick's Jeep. I got a little chick Jeep. Everything works. The AC works. The brakes work.

It's got Bluetooth. That's magic to me. Isn't it? Everything. So I just have to keep telling, trying to be humble. And you could ask my girlfriend, it's hard. She's constantly looking at me. I'll say something and she'll look at me and I'll be like, fuck.

Like, you're right. You have to be thankful and humble. And I have to remind myself, over and over and over again to do it. Yep. Because naturally, I, you know, naturally I want to be driving. I want to drive a, I want to drive a $100,000 car. I want to live in a half a million dollar house, which in Florida is a million dollar house anywhere else.

I was going to say in Florida, that's a shack, isn't it? No, no, in Florida, half a million dollars, that's like a million, money goes far in Florida. Really? Yeah, as long as you're not on the coast. Look, you saw where we are. Like this house. No, I get that. probably worth I think these things are this selling for like this is like a

300,000 dollar house okay but bro this house is huge it's brand is it's a year and a half old okay now you know somewhere else it probably in California it's probably worth two million right so I'm saying you know I just have to constantly be humble and and try and be thankful for what I have and and I think that's something that prison and Ardap put into me because I had a friend named Pete who used to say and I've everybody's heard me say this you know you You cannot go to prison with the same mindset that you had prior to prison, go through prison and get out with those same thought patterns and not expect to go back to prison.

You really can't. Right. I mean, we were talking about that earlier. You know, definition of insanity. Yeah, yeah. Keep doing the same thing over and over and expect a different result. Right. It's the same thing.

Look, you drank that whole time. You happen to stay straight, but only out of the fear of going to prison. And then you finally got to that point, same issue you had before. start robbing banks, go right back to prison. I mean, what did you expect? Of course you're going to go back to prison. Nothing had changed. Nothing had changed in my mindset.

Nothing had changed in my personality. And, you know, it goes back to what I was talking about with recovery until you're ready to do that. Right. And whatever it takes to get you to that place where you're ready to do that. You're not going to do it. So, well, so you're, but now you got out, you're, you're starting. You've started it, but you're still doing the groundwork for, for a reentry

program, Phoenix Reentry. Yeah. Is that the exact name? Phoenix. Phoenix Reentry Resources. Is actually what it is. When we were in RDAP, I don't know if you guys had to do this or not, but you had to be a part of a committee. Of course.

Of course. So I had a friend of mine, let me tell you a quick story about RDAP right quick, because you were talking about how you kept dropping out of RDAP or something. Yeah, I dropped out twice. Okay. So let me tell you how I got into RDAP because because I was in for robbing banks, no matter whether I used a gun or not, it was considered a violent offense. They don't want to give you one year off. They wouldn't give me my one year off. So I've been at Beckley for about two years, and my custody level dropped to a low.

So they put me in for a low, and when I got designated, they designated me for Oakdale, Louisiana. It was SCI Oakdale. I was like, where the hell is Oakdale? I had to look it up and find out it was in Louisiana. So they've got me designated to go there. I talked to my mom, and she's like, Justin, that's 800 miles away. we're not going to be able to bring your daughter to see you yeah you're gonna you're gonna miss that so i'm sitting here brainstorming you know i'm talking to everybody they're like well if you get a shot

it'll kill your transfer blah blah blah blah i'm like yeah the ardap coordinators have almost as much power as the wardards right and the one that we had um at beckley i had interactions with him he seemed like he was one of the only people there that at least acted like he cared whether he did or not. He acted like it. Right. So I snagged him going across the compound one day and I said, look. And I went and basically fed him this whole line about family acceptance and whatever, blah, blah, blah. I need to be in R-Dap. I need to be in this R-Dap, whatever. He starts getting on the phone and making arrangements to get me into R-Dap. And it ended up the morning, one Monday morning i was on the call out to go to r and d to pack out to go to oakdale and i was on the call out to go over

to the to the rdap building so everybody's kind of freaking out a little bit figuring out what to do with me this guy stayed on the phone all day to get me to be able to stay in that rdap program so i just thought it was funny when you were talking about that earlier i i meant to mention that but uh no no you're it's the same you're lucky to end up on a bus man you ain't even kidding you ain't even kidding because i very very seldom do they stop a transfer they have to make the phone you know they have to shoot what is it um grand prairie grand prairie thank you they got to go to brent grand prairie get somebody even on the phone there is hard for even for them so you got lucky but that was the same thing i was supposed to be transferred it hadn't gone through right they were saying

we're going to transfer you and i said oh no no i'm going an art app can't do that so i go over there immediately talked to dr smith which was the phd woman that runs the program you know that that you're saying they're coordinator you're called yeah they call it dapsie right yeah dapsie right yeah dapsie she oh yeah it's so funny to me i was like rsa i ain't heard that shit in a while um so same thing she she uh she got me in there and then of course six seven months later i drop out again yeah and she just what now she thinks i'm there because i want the one year i never told anybody right i mean like my buddy pete knows i drop out because i figure i got the uh i've got a management variable on me you can't move me now it's good for a year

six, no, about three months later, they called me and they go, okay, we're going to transfer you. And I went to a camp because I had like, listen, when I went to the medium, I had like, I had like three points. I don't have any violence at all. It kind of surprised me when I heard you were even at a medium. Well, because I had 26 years. Okay. The time. Right. So I was like, what are you talking about? You know, I was like, no, no, I got a management variable. She said, I know, but they're pushing people to go to camps. And so I, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to call and have it removed and I'm like like I didn't know was that easy like you guys made it sound like you couldn't remove it and and they were like well I mean in this case man we got to be

people to camps you should have never you should never been the medium you shouldn't even be here and I was like you know you're as soft as cotton no um you got your female counselor telling you my god um and I was like I was like we can't do that and she was I said I'm supposed to go back to Ardap she was you are and I was like yeah I said I've already had a meeting with Dr. Smith and I'm supposed, she said next, she was, when? I go like next week. And she goes, oh, gosh, okay, well, I'll hold off then. I won't put it in right now. Um, uh, so hopefully you'll be on the call out next week. I said, yeah, definitely immediately go back and send a, send an email. Yeah. And sure enough, luckily a week later, I did get a meeting. She said,

okay, no problem. And a week later, she put me back in. But it was the same thing, transfer. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's one of the things that you, you learn in there is, is you've got to work you've got to work the system as much as you can oh absolutely yeah they're not looking out for you no not at all um it's it's a terrible whole system i don't know if you have seen all the news stuff lately it's just been oh what with so much going on with with the bop and oh they're falling apart oh they are i mean it's and you know they can't they're um my buddy pete who said literally he's like the most senior co correctional officer the most senior you're trying to use the correct because I want to say cop you know what I'm saying like the inmates say cop you know oh yeah

the cops over here the cop so the most senior correctional officer on the compound at the low is has 18 months you have to think the most senior before would have 20 years yeah you know there'd be five or 10 guys that have you know 15 and 20 years there now the most senior ones 18 months he's like literally we're telling the counselors how things work this is what you do and they'll come to them and say and say hey man this is what's going on what like i'm not even sure you know like i don't even know what and he's like well fuck if you try this did you call so-and-so did you yeah yeah yeah i'll do that yeah that's a good idea it's like jesus god almighty you know you got inmates there have been there 25 30 years and they're like like they know the

whole place they could run the whole place practically they could use a computer but that's how bad it is like in the the the budget is they're being crushed by the budget and they have no budget they have this this nobody wants to work there that the guys are getting like the the ceos are getting are getting are getting are getting COVID and then getting it again and then getting it again and then quitting their job like I'm done because it's so it's just everywhere and that it's so you know not that it's dirty because Coleman was super clean but the fact is right how do you get rid of staff when you've got 180 guys living together you can wipe that place down down every single day with peroxide or or bleach or whatever you want to wipe it down with you've got 180 guys you just can't get rid of the staff you just can't no you know the showers you know it's moist there's the no you know it's like you know where's that there's no there's really no happy medium between keeping them in from escaping and being able to have um showers and toilets and sleeping and sleeping in

bunk beds and you know it's just people just aren't meant to live like that so it's a problem no and and i kept up with a handful of guys that i was in there with you know some in the rdap whatever and there was guys in there that didn't go outside for a year and a half oh yeah yeah you know did not go outside yeah um you know they're on lockdown all the time the short staffing thing is making them basically because the one thing that was ubiquitous all the way across the BOP that i saw was nobody really wanted to do any work CEO wise. You go ask them to do something

and that pisses them off. They didn't get a job. They didn't get a job as a CEO because they wanted to change the system and clean up. Like I'll talk to cops who'll say, you know, I genuinely, when I got hired, wanted to make a difference.

Like, I really thought you get a CEO job, you're like, I'm trying to kick back and make my 80 or $100,000 with some overtime. Yep. I don't want to do any work. I don't want to do any work. Right.

So, yeah. And so now that, now, they put everybody on lockdown like on the regular you know just for no particular reason uh y'all are getting locked down for the next week two weeks well i mean because at this point this is they're still able to use covid as an excuse and and you know this is the thing whenever i talk about prison is that you know the truth is that i i know a lot of guys get in there and they they they hate on the COs and they hate on the you know and look but the truth is it's like listen like i probably i met one or two people who are in prison who probably shouldn't have been there.

You know what I'm saying? Maybe I've met five or six that shouldn't have been there for something. Now, almost everybody across the board shouldn't have gotten the time they got. Like it's insane the time. Like, you know, okay, you broke the law, you fucked up, you need five years. But they gave you 30. Your first offense?

Right. Or even their second offense for something that's always minor. It's like, are you sick? So you had a gun that was at your house five miles away and they enhanced you because they found a gun when they searched your house that you didn't bring to the drug thing and now you got 15 years yeah because yeah it's like holy shit like you know it's it's there's there's there's all kinds of reasons but you know the the the truth is is that look 95% of the guys that are locked up like I don't want to live in my neighborhood you know they're just they're and not so much because

not because they're criminals or they did something wrong but because they're in there and like we talked about they're they're just plotting their next indictment and to me but also by the same token the best people i've ever met in my life i met in federal prison so you know what i'm saying like where's that like and that to me has to be there need to be programs and these guys are gonna fuck them up right they're gonna fuck them up yeah they're they're not there isn't any government system that's going to work to try to fix this but just like art app look it doesn't matter that you're right half the guy or 80% of the guys might be faking their way out but to save the 20% is still save so much for overall it saves the taxpayer so much money they don't if you do the math

that program more than pays for itself and it saves a taxpayer so much money absolutely and what would save the taxpayer even more money is if these people had some way to get themselves back into society in a decent way because the truth is and this is what I was going to get at and this is me just being a fucking narcissism is that most guys are not going to have the savvy to set themselves up

to be able to get themselves back on their feet even with the halfway house because the staff at the halfway house doesn't want to help you. They're making $10 an hour they don't give a shit. They hate your, and they just hate it. They're doing everything to want

to fucking make it as hard as possible. Dude, I had to do made a statement and said that I hit him, that I punched him. Right. A halfway house staff. I cussed at him a little bit because he took my phone. Everybody had smartphones.

You're right. Everybody. He took mine. And he showed me where they put the rest of the phones. And we came out of there and I was cussing him. You know, I was mad to my brand new phone. And, uh, so are you not allowed to have it when you were there?

No. The, the policy was that you could have, uh, a phone that couldn't get internet. Yeah. I mean, it's just like stupid. It's just stupid. It's like, what are you doing? Yeah, why? You're going to try to get us back in the community, but you're not going to give us any access to be able to do it.

I can't have my laptop. I can't have a smartphone or an iPhone or a cell phone or smart, whatever you want to call it. You know, I can't have any of that stuff. I can't have access to this. It's the, the halfway house is worse than being in prison. And to me it was. It was more, they were on me more. If you're not mentally prepared for it, you're right.

You're right. because it is, it's them giving you enough rope to hang yourself is what they're doing. It's a test, pretty much. But yeah, this guy accused me of hitting him. So I get called up there by the head of the halfway house. I mean, what they're called? So for the next 10 hours, I'm like, shit, I'm going back to jail because this son of a bitch lied on me.

And I said they're bugging out, 12, 15 hours later, within 24 hours, he recanted his statement, got to keep working there. whole rest of the time, everything. I'm like, you try to get me sent back to prison. You get to keep your fucking job. Yeah. Yeah. So probably because there was a camera, probably because somebody else wouldn't back up a statement, not because he felt bad, but probably just because there was a reason he recanted his statement. Maybe, you know, where'd you get hit? Where is it on the camera? Where were you standing? Okay, then the camera should have gotten. Or we talked to so-and-so,

he said he didn't hit you. Or, you know what I'm saying? It's like, it is. It's a fucked up situation. He had to. But anyway, that's the kind of people we have to deal with in there. And it's the same way in prison. Guards are the same way. I mean, they know that you're disadvantaged. They have almost complete power over you. So they take advantage of that. And they use whatever they want to do to you, they can pretty much do. Yeah.

So, but you're absolutely right. There's a lot of people in there that have tried to go through that change of mind like you and I've had. You know, because obviously you went through it too. You got in there and I can't do this shit anymore. Yeah. Let me live different. When you talk about the resourcefulness to be able to get. get their plan together and everything else they might be able to do that but the resources aren't

really there for them to do that all right um you know you you can't even get a resume typed up in word document or anything you got to use a typewriter and put it on paper yeah um yeah yeah it's if you want to learn anything besides plumbing or construction you're you're just shit out of luck you can't get any of that stuff so but i believe that that prison is a place that you're taking a time out and if you're going to be able to get through to somebody and and help them change their lives that's the place to be able to do it because their life's pretty much on pause yeah so when i was in our dap and i helped my buddy squirrel out and and that was when the light went on for me and i said i want to help these people that are in there

that want to do better but they don't really have the resources to be able to do it yeah um so when i got out almost immediately when i got out i started brainstorming about doing a re-e entry organization specifically for the feds um i took about a month off when i first got out and just kind of got acclimated i was fortunate enough my parents are like you know come stay with us and we'll try this again you know whatever and uh so i took a minute and i went up to a temp agency i remember because they said yeah we got a job it's okay that you got a felony we'll we'll get you into the job and everything i get up there and they pull up my background and they're like oh no we can't hire you i was like okay well that's fair enough you know they were nice

about it and everything. So I go to drive away and they called me and they said, you need to call this person at the Justice Resource Center and said they work in a reentry division. As soon as I heard reentry, I was like, really? Okay. So I called. I didn't get that person. I got another person that her and I sit there on the phone for like 45 minutes talking about reentry stuff. And that led me down. She didn't get me a job. But that led me down the path and introduced me to the whole reentry and recovery community up there in Asheville. Right. And she told me, she said, you need to become a peer support specialist.

And without even asking what it was, I knew what it was. And she told me it's somebody who uses their lived experience to be able to help others who are struggling with, you know, either substance abuse or mental health challenges or whatever. I came up with the idea of a Phoenix one day when I was walking around the track in prison. And I was like, that's what I was. what I want to be. I want to be like a phoenix. I've blown 45 years of my life up. I want to rise up out of these ashes and do something with myself. So I came up with the Phoenix idea. I had these

five or six guys that I still talked to on the inside. So I started up a newsletter and just started working on putting the pieces together. You know, I don't know anything about business. I don't know anything about any of it. So it's it's taken a lot longer than it would for somebody else. But I've been out for two years, June 26, and I've been working on this since I've been out. It's the longest project that I've ever worked on. It's the hardest that I've ever worked on anything. And it's not, brother, that's not like, like what you're talking about doing is not easy. No. You know what I'm saying? It's not like you're, so it's, it's, it's a lot of struggle with very little payoff. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, until you, you reach that

finish line and even then it'll be a struggle yeah i mean i'm like i've got a lot going on right now so i'm i'm i'm war out but i know that if i push to the end of this it's going to be it's going to right it's going to um there's a huge gap i mean we had a we had a book at beckley that was like that thick of reentry resources i sent out like 20 letters you know how i got back zero everything they've got is outdated everything that they've got is broken and they really don't care they're not concerned does you guys have the computers

they had these reentry computers you go to the library you get on this reentry computer and you can pull up supposedly resources none of them are hooked to the internet yeah so none of them are updated

it's useless so what are the people do in there that really want to try to do something if you're good and resourceful you can find resources but it'd be a lot better if they were available to them

well you know what's interesting now and now because of the COVID and stuff, like, like all, even all the stuff that is, you could kind of manipulate to help you in some way, like getting a resume or something, that none of that's available now. No. So now you're in even a worse position to get out of prison. Now you're really screwed.

And you get, and then the halfway house, like, okay, how much time do I get in halfway house? People are like, oh, it's great. You get to work and live there for free. They're taken 30% of what I make. Yep. They're, plus you're paying your taxes. So you end up, you're basically working for less.

and half um yeah yeah because they take that 30% off you're gross not right right so i'm working for less than half so if i'm making you know whatever you're making 15 bucks an hour you're working for now you're working for about six bucks an hour seven bucks an hour if you're lucky and so you know you're trying to save that you're trying to right drive the but even after i got a vehicle they wouldn't let me park it in the parking lot that took another two weeks so i had to have my buddy drive take keep my vehicle at his at his gym for a couple weeks Like, a vehicle sit in the parking lot for two weeks? Do you think that's not an opportunity for somebody to steal the vehicle?

I don't, I have PIP. I don't have liability. My car gets sold and I'm done. It's not financed. I couldn't get financing because I wasn't allowed to get financing because I had to get permission to get financing. And they said, no, you can't get financing. You're in the halfway house.

We're not allowing you to get financing. How am I supposed to buy a vehicle? Ask your family. My family's not helping me. They don't have money to help. their convict brother who just got out of prison and lives in a halfway house. Like, who would help me? Right.

You know, like, where are you going to stay? Well, you could stay with your mother. My mother lives in a retirement community. I can't stay with my mother. Like, there are, you know what I'm saying? Like, there was, I was in a really bad spot. I got lucky that an ex-girlfriend took pity on me and said, you can live in my spare room. And then when I was like, I can't do that.

I'm not going to do that to you. I'm not going to do that to you. You know, she was like, no, no, you'd be helping me. You'd be helping me. It's like, stop. Like, I'm not helping you. Like, I'm paying you like $600 a month and you're throwing in food. I'm going to eat you out of that $600 right here and fucking tea it.

Right. You know, listen, it got so bad. She finally came to me after a month or two. And she's like, listen, I wasn't anticipating coffee. You drink a lot of coffee. And I was like, oh, man, I was like, well, how much? I'll pay it. I'll pay it.

But it was the same thing. When my car broke down on probation, my car broke down. I live like four miles to a bus stop. I'm not saying I can't walk that in the mind. I could take an hour and walk that. I could get dropped off there and walk back. That's like two couple hours. Assuming the buses run on time,

I could drive the bus for another hour and a half to where I worked. That's fine. I could spend an extra five hours a day so that I could go work eight hours. I could do that. You're right. It's not impossible. But I'll tell you what it does. do, it doesn't make me not want to commit fraud. So the fact is when my vehicle broke down and I went to my probation officer and I had $1,000 that I could get a new vehicle for, she said you can't finance anything. And I was like, why? She said, well, you have a financial crime and we don't feel comfortable letting you finance anything. And I was like, I said, I don't have a car. She's always going to figure something out. I said, I don't have anything to figure out. My figuring it out is let me go buy a brand new vehicle, which I can afford because I have the pay stubs for. And I'll,

luckily i didn't listen to you people and i went and got three credit cards when i was in the halfway house which were which i you know i got secured credit cards because i knew this moment was going to come something sure so luckily i didn't listen to you and i can do it but you have to give me permission we argued for two weeks before she finally said i'll let you spend three hundred dollars a month on a new vehicle i said then i'll have to get a used vehicle she said then you get a used vehicle i said but don't you understand if anything goes wrong with the used vehicle i don't have the money to pay for the repairs. If I get a new vehicle, I at least get a bumper to bumper warranty. I don't, I'm not trying to buy, get a brand new Lexus or a Lamborghini or something or a

Porsche. I'm trying to get the cheapest bumper to bumper I could get, which was my Jeep. Right. And so literally, when I came back, I was allowed to spend 300 bucks. I spent 375 bucks. She was furious. furious and I was like and I was just gambling that she wasn't going to violate me for an extra 75 bucks but she could have she could have absolutely so I'm saying everything is against you yeah I mean you can't get people don't want to rent to you if you've got felonies oh yeah that that list that they put out in prison of all these companies that hire felons yeah they'll hire a felon if it's seven 10 15 years old but they're not hiring you straight out of prison It's not going to happen.

Yeah. So, well, look, I mean, you know, it's obvious. The government's failed us in a lot of ways. Right. You can, you know, look, here's the problem. It's that could you make it? You could make it. But it would take someone who is extremely resourceful, manipulative, and someone that is super

humble and super appreciative. I mean, you would have to change your mindset so fundamentally. And the truth is, by the time you get. out of prison you're probably pretty fucked up yeah you know i mean there's definitely some of that yeah right so so if you haven't had some kind of a life-altering experience inside prison to get you your head right it you you got a long road ahead of you and probably you're just going to get re-incarcerated i mean the way the way it works now you almost have to be like the perfect candidate to turn your life around to be able to really do it right you know um you know all those things you said

resourceful smart driven humble all those things have to be there but there's a lot of people that are falling through the cracks just because it's so freaking hard to do not a lot of it bro it it's it's it's what is recidivism that's a massive that's not cracks that's not cracks that's people falling into a swimming pool then there's like it's like it's not like a little there's it's it's it's really a few people the people that are falling through the cracks are the ones that are succeeding because almost nobody succeeds right look at recidivism it's It's fucking outrageous. It's nuts.

Absolutely it is. And I've seen people who have gotten out who seem like they were going to do the right thing. They were going to do the right thing. And then one or two things go wrong. And the next thing you know, they're like, they're in such a jam. And what do they do? They go, they rob a bank or they do something like that. I know guys that rob banks while they were in the halfway house.

Yeah. Within a few months. Yeah. I've heard of that as well. Jess and I knew a guy that literally was telling people in the halfway house that he was, going to start he was going to do heroin he's like i don't know how long i'll be on supervised release he is because i mean i'm going to go back to heroin i mean i i i just i love it and i this and i that he died a year later year later we got she got uh notified by a mutual

friend that said hey remember so and so yeah boom here's his obituary it's you know he didn't have nobody ever talked to him right he got in trouble for like stealing it using company credit card he ended up getting like 14 months or something ridiculous didn't go to ARDAP, didn't get this, didn't get that, got three months a halfway house, put him back home, he's back on fucking heroin, and boom, he's dead. I'm not saying that's the BOP's fault or anybody's fault, but his own, but I'm saying you could have certainly, oh, and by the way, this guy, he was an engineer. So he made over a hundred and something thousand dollars a year. He had a, it's not like he was a guy that, that didn't, didn't contribute a lot to society. This was an upstand. guy. I've met guys from NASA. I've met lawyers. I've met doctors. I've met all kinds of super smart guys that end up in federal prison because they just did something slightly stupid that

in another country would have probably just gotten your probation. It said they get five years, 10 years. They get back out. Everybody's left them. It's over. They're rebuilding their whole life. Yeah. Got to rebuild your whole life. I mean, and it's true. I think what I meant was you've got a, there's a good portion of them now, I think, that they don't know any other way. Yeah. You know, so you have to start at a fundamental level of retraining them how to live. Yeah. And I think, I never want to leave anybody behind, but certainly there's some people in there that are trying, that are trying a little harder than others.

You know what I mean? They're really trying to do something with themselves while they're in there. And then you've got others that they jump in there and they jump straight into the dope game in the, there because a lot of people that haven't been in prison they don't understand it's it's just like in society in there it's just like it is out here you can't have booze unless you can get it smuggled in you know yeah um those kind of things but it's it's just a regular society so people jump into it there they never they never leave that they're not ready to move on from that mindset i guess is what i'm getting at so but the people that are they're still hard

press for resources they're hard pressed for there is no planning going into them getting out yeah um like you said the halfway house doesn't really do anything yeah the advice of the halfway house and probation officer my probation officer my advice to you know react like making myself to society was you're smart guy figure you'll figure it out you'll figure it out you're like okay yeah and i'll admit i'm probably smarter than the average bear but what about the average bear what about the average bear you're saying like what do you know like and luckily for me i I don't think much about that because I'm solely thinking about myself. But now that things are going okay, now it's like, well, no wonder the average guy keeps coming back.

And that's why. You're saying, figure it out. Yeah. That's exactly what it is. My probation officer was awesome. She came out the first time she told me, she said, look, I'm not here to try to set you up. I'm not going to try to surprise you and trap you unless you give me a reason to. I want to see you succeed.

and by every count, her and I had a great relationship all the way through it. So I think the, and I've dealt with state probation officers too, and there seemed to be a little bit of a difference there, you know, to me. But so anyway, while I was in ARDAP and I was able to help people, I was actually a senior guide through the last three months, and then they asked me to stay over as a mentor and teach classes. So I stayed over and taught classes, and that was just what I had a passion for. You know, I always had a problem with a regular job before in a corporation or something, trying to make somebody else rich. Here's something I can do and actually contribute to society and help. So let me look at going that path. I got out.

I got a job at some plastic injection molding, whatnot, worked on getting my peer support specialist, did the work, went and intern for Sunrise Community for Recovery and Wellness, which is where I work now, and did some volunteer work for them. and got an opportunity to go to work full-time for them. And I'll tell you what, the difference that it made when I went from that corporate, you know, whatever job to this job was monumental. I mean, it was, you're not going to make somebody rich now. You're going to try to help people. Right.

And that just made me happy in a way that I'd never, never had before. And that fueled me just pushing harder on Phoenix because I want to be able to help the guys in there. And I know enough about how the system works to, to possibly be able to really do that. So I brainstormed with a bunch of people. I've talked to a lot of people on Facebook and connected with groups, you know,

from people from FAM and a couple of the other groups that are out there. And I've got a newsletter that goes in to the federal prison. But the project that I'm really excited about is Sunrise is the company that I work for. They're a peer-led organization, which means that it's all peer-servoir. support specialists that run it right it's all people with this lived experience okay so the person

who's struggling they're able to relate to that person because they've kind of been there yeah yeah you know it's not somebody with a doctorate degree that's never been struggled for anything telling them what's what and they're not going to believe them so you get a better chance to connect with them there are these peer led organizations all over the country so what I'm working on doing is building a database of peer led organizations and the contacts with the people there in every city that's got a halfway house. Right. So wherever there's a halfway house, I'm in contact with these guys in prison.

I can put them in touch with a person with a phone number at this peer-led organization when they get to the halfway house. Okay. Then they've got a local access to the resources and everything. They've got somebody that they can connect with and understand because they've been there. they'll know about jobs they'll know about all the resources that are available to them right basically what the halfway house is supposed to be doing but they don't yeah yeah yeah so it's plugging them into that network and the other big thing that it does is you know when you get out

of prison you're like okay what are i got to do now a lot of people just fall back to their old friends their old ways which puts them right back in the same thing yeah they get out and get introduced to to this kind of organization it's people that truly care they're in recovery too they're going to invite you to go do things they're going to replace that social element as well in a lot of cases not every time but in a lot of cases they're going to replace that social

community that you had and that's going to make it getting down that path so much easier. So that's the big thing that I'm pushing on the project now but there's so much more. I mean I've talked to a lot of life coaches out there on Facebook there's some good groups for those

I had a great response for people who were willing to volunteer their time to have conversations with inmates that were still in prison and help them with life coaching and planning what they were going to do when they get out. So we've got that. I've got a college professor that I know who's willing to help me write some correspondence courses,

not necessarily for a degree, just to be able to get the knowledge of how to do basic bookkeeping for a business. Because that's one of the things about people that are in prison as well is they're not really of an employee, the e mindset yeah they're more wanting to go work for themselves at least a lot of them yeah i can't tell you how many people came to me can you help me write this business plan right

you know yeah but they just don't have the knowledge to be able to do it that's actually a hustle in there i know guys that we're charging guys like a hundred were they 100 bucks 200 bucks to write a business plan i was like what are you doing everybody's hustling in there aren't they where you do it everybody they listen to every business plan that somebody i came they they'd be man that is a good idea that's a good idea and they go man i can you write a a business plan, yeah, man, it's like $100, give me $100 in commissary or $100, you know, you do one or two of those a month. And it was basically, his business plan was the same basically over and over. It was just horrible. People are just horrible, just praying on people.

Oh, yeah. You're in there with a bunch of criminals. What do you expect? So, but I got a ton of ideas, you know, for what can be done with this thing. But I think the big thing is just, I try to catch people about a year before they get out or so. Yeah. get them connected with resources in their area and then start helping them develop a plan, you know, but a little bit down the road, really, the way I sum it up the best is I want to revolutionize rehabilitation in prison. Right. I want to be able to offer them the resources they need to be able to be successful when they get out. And you have to, the easiest thing, well, easiest, one of the things would be good is to actually be able to go in like every once a year or something to multiple prisons and kind of give a, a presentation or explain like that'd be the perfect thing to try and get to them so that they know

it's available because a staff's not going to help but you know if they were allow you to come in and have that conversation and the other thing is you know what I mean guys so luckily in Florida they have what's called the flow bus and that is the where they allow you to get your driver's license do you know how many guys I know that we're getting out of prison that are going you're going to the halfway house and you don't have an ID you don't have a driver's license And I was like, why didn't you go to the flow bus? Bro, I did. I put in for it twice.

And they canceled to the last minute this time. And the other one was full. And then I owed this much money on back parking tickets. So I had to pay that off. Well, that was $800. And I couldn't get it paid off. So I couldn't get my driver's license. I could get an ID.

But it was like, like you would think that they would have something set up. The federal government would have something set up to say, listen, we're quashing this guy's $800. He's been locked up 12 years. Drop it. Like let's get him a driver's license. Let's get them that like it's all on you. It's all on you.

And I get it. I get that it's your fault that you're there and I get that whole thing. But the truth is that these are guys who have a lot of these guys have never had a job. They don't know how to fill out paperwork. The anxiety is overwhelming and the staff doesn't want to help. And so they get out. they get out there's no help they're super they feel more comfortable going to a drug deal than they do filling out paperwork to try and get a fucking driver's license yep somebody needs to be able to

help it leaves it leaves them hopeless i mean it leaves them hopeless and that's right it's just a cycle yeah it's like me i was hopeless i turned to crime just all my problems that's what people are going to continue to do unless you get them some kind of avenue to be able to reenter society right you know and it was tempting for me to jump in there and and jump into the legal fight of, you know, squash mandatory minimums and conditions in jail and everything like that. Look, there's a lot smarter people that are doing that than me. And I'm going to leave that to them. This is a problem that I see that I can do something about. Right. And that's what I'm, that's, that's my jam. It makes me happy to do that because I'm able to connect with guys that are where I used to be.

They want to get where I am now. Okay. If you want to get where I am now, I'll help you. Yeah. Now, I'm not going to work harder at it than you're going to. Yeah, I was just thinking that a lot of these guys, they'll take advantage. They'll be like, oh, well, you can you do this? Basically, they want you to give, give, give, give, give. No. Or even just take up your time to talk to you. Yeah.

Because, you know, when you're inside, outside communications, a big deal. So even just having somebody to talk to would be a big thing to them. But I'm working on some kind of vetting kind of things, you know, to decide who really wants to change. You've got to show me, you know, that you're, you're. you're really trying to do this before I'm going to dump a bunch of effort into you. But if you do that, I'll give you everything I got. I've got a person that I've helped out in Salt Lake City. They had their first step act credits, refigured, okay, she was in a halfway house.

And at 2 o'clock in the afternoon, they said, your time has been recalculated. You have to be out of here by 4 o'clock. Where am I going to go? give a shit we don't care but you can't be here at four o'clock yeah so her and i worked a good bit that night and we got her a hotel room yeah so that she'd have somewhere to stay and then we started working on trying to get her a plan together so you know if that's the kind of organization i want phoenix to be my newsletter is completely interactive i invite everybody that gets the newsletter email me back you know we'll start a dialogue as much as we can and several people have done that

that's showing me that you're really trying to do something right so But going back in there or going in there and doing motivational speaking and stuff, I would love to do that. I'm waiting on the time limit before I can, but that's something that I'll have in the works coming up. So I'm excited about it. Well, let me know. Completing that book was a big deal, and I got something completed. Now I want to get this all the way there and get it completed and be able to change people's lives. And if you like the video, do me a favor and hit the subscribe button, hit the bell so you get notified of.

videos like this leave me a comment and I will try and respond back to you and please keep me in mind for Patreon and thank you very much and check out the resource center all of his stuff in the description his links in the description and I appreciate it and I'll see you guys