Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - Celebrity Nutritionist Survives Assassination Attempt 1m Reward

Starting point is 00:00:00 You didn't start a business just to keep the lights on. You're here to sell more today than yesterday. You're here to win. Lucky for you, Shopify built the best converting checkout on the planet. Like the just one tapping, ridiculously fast acting, sky high sales stacking, championed at checkouts. That's the good stuff right there. So if your business is in it to win it, win with Shopify. Start your free trial today at Shopify.com slash win.

Starting point is 00:00:30 On game day, pain can hit hard and fast, like the headache you get when your favorite team and your fantasy team both lose. When pain comes to play, call an audible with Advil plus acetaminopin and get long-lasting dual-action pain relief for up to eight hours. Tackle your tough pain two ways with Advil plus acetaminopin. Advil, the official pain relief partner of the NFL. Ask your pharmacist at this product's rate for you. Always read and follow the label. Looking to grow your investing skills and make smarter decisions with your money in 2026, join Hermione's investing fix, the twice-monthly Women's Only Investment Club, where expert stock pickers

Starting point is 00:01:13 pitch ideas and you help build the portfolio. Since launching four years ago, our member-driven picks have outperformed the S&P thanks to smart, collaborative choices. We've got a strong track record and a community that's learning. and winning together. So go to investingfix.com. That's Fix with two exes and join us. I got a call one day.

Starting point is 00:01:38 Your ex-wife, Cheryl, has offered me $1 million to take you out. I was a gunman trying to sue my husband. Oh, my God! My husband is us white. We're trying to kill us for years now. I was really sick as a child, and I couldn't figure out what was wrong with me. I mean, here I am 17 years old. Everybody else is healthy and strong.

Starting point is 00:02:04 And I'm sitting there literally sick half the time and not knowing why and nobody having any answers for me. And I wanted to see if I could find a practitioner that could help me. So I found a practitioner, a very famous practitioner named Dr. Bernard Jensen, who's basically one of the grandfathers of the natural health or natural wellness movement. And I started going to his seminars. Then I started going to his class. and I started studying with him. Basically, I learned from him the power of detoxification.

Starting point is 00:02:39 And that's when my whole life changed. I went on a cleanse, a detox program. And within six months, my entire health completely changed. When I started to heal my body and how quickly I healed, it just, I couldn't, I was never going to stop talking about natural. health. So I started helping people for free. I started consulting with people. People like, oh yeah, you're the guy who does all the cleansing. It's like, yeah, okay, well, can I come in and consult? Like, yeah, sure. And I was giving free information and I did it every day for five or six hours a day.

Starting point is 00:03:17 And then they started referring people to me. And so one day I'm sitting here consulting for free for five days, six days a week. And I said, I have to start charging. It's like, draining. Yeah, I was just going to say, like, what's going to have? That doesn't pay the bills. It's not sustainable. No. Yeah. It's not sustainable. So I did, and I think I started charging $40 a consultation. And then all of a sudden, six months later, nine months later, I booked out for four months, five months. So I raised my prices to $60. And then I booked out for nine months. And then I raised my prices to $120. Same thing happened. And then year after year after year, and at the peak of my nutrition consulting practice, which was in Santa Monica, I had a two and a half year wait to get in to see me.

Starting point is 00:04:07 So when did you meet your wife at this point? And what does she think? At the beginning, around the beginning of it. Because she came to me as a client. All right. So she was a very famous stunt woman. And she had been dropped on her head in a Stephen Spielberg movie called Back to the Future with Michael J. Fox. So the hoverboard scene. Right. Okay. When they went over or through the bank and they went over the big fountain, there's a big fountain.

Starting point is 00:04:37 And there's a hoverboard scene. Well, the stunt coordinator released her, released them too early, and she hit one of the columns in 18 feet, dropped her, and they dropped her on her head. You can actually see it. It's still in the movie. They left it in the movie. And if you slow-mo it, you'll see her hit the column, drops her, but, you'll be. Boom, 18 hits her head, shatters the entire eye socket.

Starting point is 00:05:02 She red lines right there at the movie on the set. They rush her to the hospital. And then over the next several years, she has seven reconstructive surgeries done to her face. The medication and the surgeries made her body and her liver so toxic that her immune system went down, her health went down, and she was searching. She was struggling to try to get back to being,

Starting point is 00:05:28 a healthy individual. Somebody recommended that she comes to me. She comes to me as a client. I get her on a nutrition supplement program. And in four weeks, five weeks, she's like, oh my God. I haven't felt this good since before my accident. So all I did was detoxify her liver,

Starting point is 00:05:49 refeed her body, build up her cells and her nutrients in her body, and she was a new person. And in the course of this, you guys started dating. We didn't start dating yet. She was married, and so she started going through a difficult relationship with her husband and separated years later.

Starting point is 00:06:09 And then she comes into my clinic and she's like, no, I'm separated. And I'm like, oh, okay. She goes, you want to go on a hike? And I'm like, okay, I was single, never been married. And so we went up to Angelus Crest and took a full day and went on a hike and fell in love. Was she still doing stunts, working as a stunt woman? She got bigger after that, yeah. She had a lawsuit with Steven Spielberg.

Starting point is 00:06:35 They settled. And she was very well known in the industry. And so she became, you know, she ended up doing Charlie's Angels, and she ended up doing a lethal weapon with, you know, Mel Gibson and, hey, Russo. He did, you know, just a lot of the poison ivy and the Batman. She did a lot of the biggest movies. Okay. And did you have kids with her?

Starting point is 00:06:59 I did. Okay. Yeah, two daughters. All right. McKenna and Brianna. I know that this turns into a grouping of supplements along those lines. That you start slowly. Like, what, what, what, how did this turn into that?

Starting point is 00:07:11 Like, so I'm, so I'm a nutritionist. I'm a technician. You come to me and you have a problem with your thyroid. Or you have a problem with headaches or depression. Whatever. First thing I get you to understand is that depression is not a deficiency of Prozac. Your headache is not a deficiency of Tylenol. So I get that, I lay that groundwork.

Starting point is 00:07:33 We understand the medications that you're taking, they're not going to fix the problem. They're going to suppress the problem. So as a technician, I'm only as good as the tools that I have. Well, I'm having to buy other companies supplements, metagenetics and standard process and all these companies. and, of course, being extremely steeped in the natural world, I'm like, well, I don't like this supplement, but I like this one, and I wish this one had these two ingredients. I wish this one had these three ingredients. And in my mind, I'm picking these supplements apart. A lot of them are made in a marketing department. Some of them are made in a clinic, but most of them are made

Starting point is 00:08:10 in marketing departments. They've never done, they've never created the products in a nutrition clinic where you have to slay the dragons of illness every single day for nine or ten hours a day. So I start formulating with no label. I just start batching them myself at night. I start formulating these really powerful products. And that was the beginning of a very well-respected brand. It was my first company, my first brand, and it was called Nature Secret. It became a household name and took the company public probably six years after I developed it. How long is all this happening over? What period of time?

Starting point is 00:08:48 Is this a five year or ten years? So I grew Nature's Secret from zero to about, when I took it public, it was about a half a billion dollar market cap. I was 29, 28, 29 running a public company on the NASDAQ stock market. And worth, well, market cap was over a half a billion. It wasn't worth that. Probably worth a fifth of that. And how old are you at this point?

Starting point is 00:09:22 30, 20, 39, 30. That seems like a lot of success in an industry that you have no experience in. Never had a business class before in my life. Never had a business class, never had any formal training. The only thing I'd been trained in is how to take a sick body and to get it well. And the best training was myself. Right. My own story, my own healing journey.

Starting point is 00:09:48 So it's grit, man. It's all grit. How long does this, does this go on? Nature's Secret start to merger six years. Okay. And then how does it, how does that progress from there to become a nut? You're just running this, the company is just growing? Got two cooks in the kitchen.

Starting point is 00:10:11 One, I'm the chairman of the board. The other gentleman that had the other company was his, CEO, two cooks in the kitchen usually doesn't work out. Right. So I walked away. What do you mean walked away? Just had a separation package and just said, I'm going to retire at 30, 31. My first retirement was at 31.

Starting point is 00:10:30 Okay. And so that last, I'm trying to think, whenever people talk about, oh, I'm retiring, I think, okay, what are you going to do? And I always think, and they'll, oh, I'm going to travel. Okay, well, that's two months. You know, okay, then what? Well, I'm going to play golf. well, that's twice a week.

Starting point is 00:10:47 You know what I'm saying? Like it breaks down very, very quickly. You have to do something else. You know, because is, I don't know, I guess some people could just watch TV and play video games, but the person that is able to retire at that age. It doesn't. It's not their makeup.

Starting point is 00:11:02 Yeah. Nope, you're 100% right. I thought retirement sounded great, right? Yeah. How long does it take before it? It sucks. Year and a half. Okay.

Starting point is 00:11:10 Year and a half. Have you already done the golf, the traveling, the working out of? out the family. Did it all. Okay. Did it all. And I had two young ones.

Starting point is 00:11:19 Right. And so just starting the family with my wife and living in the Pacific Palisades, horrible at golf. I didn't want to travel because I have young kids, but I did some travel. And, you know, type A personality, entrepreneur, want to go, go, go, go, go. So I was, by the time I finished doing dribble rule, which is selling my stock under Rule 144, which allows you to sell only so much. much each month, I decide to start another supplement company. I started Genesis Today first,

Starting point is 00:11:54 and Genesis Today was the, was the company that introduced all of the superfoods that everybody knows about today to North America, or basically to the industrialized world. Nobody really knew what Noni Juice was, or Asa'i fruit, or mango steam, or Resveritrol. We were the company that imported those. I would fly to the country, find the farmers, and we would import those and bring those in to the U.S. and sell those in their 100% pure form. Nothing added to them.

Starting point is 00:12:28 So we basically owned the market in full foods, Walmart, all the major retailers. I think we were in 150,000 retailers across the world. And so we were very strong in retail. big box, food drug and mass. A gentleman from Korea comes to me and says, I want you to formulate products and I want to be a partner with you. And I'm like, I'm busy.

Starting point is 00:12:58 I got plenty on my plate. I don't need to start anything new. And so he says, here's my concept. And he showed me his concept. And he was from South Korea. And he had a really good concept. He just needed good products. Anyway, long story short, I agree to do the,

Starting point is 00:13:15 business with him, I said, if you can fund it, he goes, I'll have my money in the bank before you have yours in the bank. And I said, oh, really? And I thought that was a very interesting, bold statement. The truth is, it's he does. We agreed that we would do it. We both put in a million dollars. He had his money in the bank before we even signed the contract. So what his concept was was to sell the superfoods, but through network marketing. Okay. You can't sell a product with the same company that's at Walmart for $14 when you're selling something network marketing where people are receiving commissions for $28 or $29.

Starting point is 00:13:59 This business over here, network marketing business, will fail 100%. You have to have two separate companies. They have to be completely different formulations. You can't compete. You can't have a product. over here that's competing with your distributors' products. The distributors will be up in arms. All right. So you reformulate all the, I thought these were like fruits and foods. They were. Okay. And so we had to make them completely different. We had to make a goyen. We had to make

Starting point is 00:14:34 something that had a formulation. We had to pull from a very, very old formulas from Asia. We had to create something that was unique that was not in competition with Genesis today. We did a good job of it, a really good job. That company grows from, I think, the first year we do 1.7 million. The next year, we do 9 million. The next year we do 32 million. The next year we do 58 million. So the company in six years is just completely off the charts and has a massive, massive following, and we're selling in 17 countries. Okay. One of the strategies to grow the businesses was for me to be an expert because of all the years in the clinic and all the years formulated.

Starting point is 00:15:25 And my formulas had won just about every single award that you could win in North America. I won the Bidey Awards. I won the awards for cleansers. I won the awards for best antioxidant, best superfood, best super fruit. So all these awards. So the strategy was, as an expert, I will go out and do shows, television, I'll do the view. So I was a regular on the view.

Starting point is 00:15:52 I would do Dr. Oz. I was a regular on Dr. Oz. As a matter of fact, when Dr. Oz wanted to know about a certain plant or a certain superfood, the first person he'd call would be me. Lindsay, tell me about this. Is this thing legit or not? Is this good or is it not? Is it got human clinicals?

Starting point is 00:16:10 he would ask me about that plant because he knew that I understood plants. And so I would be a regular on those shows. Well, one day I get a call from Dr. Oz's producer. Hey, we want you to do a show with Dr. Oz. Okay, what's it about? It's about green coffee bean. Do you know anything about it? Yeah, I know about green coffee bean.

Starting point is 00:16:35 What do you want to talk about green coffee bean? What are the benefits? What's the structure function claim? We want to talk about it with weight loss. Me. Why? Why weight loss? Well, there was a recent clinical symposium in San Diego.

Starting point is 00:16:54 It's the largest clinical symposium in the world for research, researching plants, researching medicines. It's really high profile. There was some clinicals done on green coffee bean. that showed that it caused people to lose weight without exercise or diet. Buy me up. Exactly. And I'm like, what? And they go, yes.

Starting point is 00:17:22 I go, let me do some research, and then I'll call you right back. I dug into it for about a day and a half. I was like, you've got to be kidding me. 10 pounds in two weeks, three weeks, no change in diet, no change in diet, no change in diet. change in exercise. I've never heard of this. Very reputable clinical, very reputable study, double-blind. I mean, it was literally everything checked every single box. I call Dr. Ozback. I say, I'll do the show. They say, okay, come two weeks. They send me the script that they wrote. I get there. I sign the release, which you have to sign every time you go on the show.

Starting point is 00:18:09 Right. I go on the show. I looked at the clinicals and nailed it. Dr. Oz and I just absolutely, you know, we nailed it. The show was the most successful show that Dr. Oz had ever done, ever. Coffee bean sold out worldwide. All the coffee, green coffee bean coffee. You couldn't find it anywhere.

Starting point is 00:18:36 It sold everywhere. The FTC, sends me a letter saying, we want to investigate, we want to know more about your appearance on Dr. Oz. We want to know about your sales of green coffee bean. We want to know everything. So it's a demand letter. Okay. And so they open up an investigation. We basically open up the books, show them everything, hire a law firm, and then it's a two years investigation. They, sue us and me for $86 million. Why $86 million? Because that's how much a sister company that we had called Pure Health had sold. Of coffee beans? Of green coffee. Okay. So they wanted to claw back 100% of the sales

Starting point is 00:19:30 that we had made, not all the other companies, but that what that pure health had made, not Genesis today or Genesis Pure, but a different brand, and they wanted to claw that back 100%. So I don't understand. So just because you said you went on Dr. Oz and had looked at a, you're already selling the coffee beans. You've been selling them, right? You've been selling green coffee beans? No, we had been researching it and we had come out with the green coffee bean, but we had really not that much. Well, I understand, but they were for sale.

Starting point is 00:20:03 Yeah. I'm not saying you're selling, you know, thousands of bags or pounds a day. No. But they're available. So you're asked to go on to the show. You look at the research that they provide you and you just give your opinion that, yeah, the research looks good. If this is true, then this is amazing. We didn't even know this, blah, blah, blah, whatever. This is great. But that's it. And the script was written off of the clinical trials. Okay. The script wasn't written off of puffery or exaggeration. The script was written off the clinicals. So it's not you saying, hey, based on my opinion and my research, you're just saying, this is, I'm just telling you what

Starting point is 00:20:39 I heard. I'm telling you what I researched. Right. And I'm also following your script, Dr. Oz's company, or his production company. Okay. So why are you, I don't understand why you're being sued. Like, what are they saying that you did wrong? They're saying that I should have disclosed that I'm the CEO.

Starting point is 00:21:01 Right. of a nutritional supplement company. I didn't disclose that. Okay. Why? I mean, why is that important? You're still an expert with multiple degrees and you've won multiple awards and that wouldn't have... In nutrition. To me, that would have just been one more accolade. It would you assume that it's not like that would have discouraged anybody.

Starting point is 00:21:25 They'd just say, and this guy, you know, he's producing, he's got multiple, you know, health. companies, nutrition, he's been in the business. I don't see why that would stop people from wanting to buy it. They saw it as deceitful. They believed that because I was on the show and I run a large nutritional supplement company and that I benefited from talking about green coffee bean

Starting point is 00:21:57 that I deceived the public because I didn't say, oh and by the way all these clinicals are great and green coffee beans great and this study was great oh but by the way i run a nutritional supplement company called genesis today but here's the interesting point so i had to hire a big law firm in dc and pay over two million dollars the law firm says send us all the documents well i sent them the release form that i'm supposed to sign that i have to sign You have to sign the release form when you go on Dr. Us. The release form says, I will not, under any circumstances, promote my products, communicate that I'm associated with the brand,

Starting point is 00:22:46 sell or push anything that I benefit from in any way. It will be cut and edited, and you will not be invited back on the show. So the producer made it really clear. Lindsay, remember, you can't say anything about Genesis today. So I know that because I've done so many of these shows. And so all of a sudden, when the lawyers send that to the FTC, the negotiation goes from 86 million down to 59 million. Then it goes to 34 million.

Starting point is 00:23:19 Then it goes to 31 million. Then it goes to 27 million. Then it gets stuck at 21 million. then it becomes almost this save face. Yeah, they want to win. They need a win. They don't want to just say we fucked up and leave. So then what they do is they call.

Starting point is 00:23:39 This is when Dr. Oz had to go in front of Congress for, I think, a whole week. It was on C-SPAN. He gets grilled about weight loss. That was this show. Right. That was the show that he and I did that had massive results. ratings were crazy. People couldn't believe that you could lose weight. And he gets grilled by Congress because he's telling people about weight loss. Now, you tell me that the drug companies are not

Starting point is 00:24:08 putting pressure on that man. Right. Because what he's doing is he's saying, look, there's alternatives to all this medication, to all these expensive meds, to all these chemicals, to all this stuff that people are taking. I've been using Mando's whole body deodorant, and let me tell you, you can use it anywhere. Pits, balls, thighs, and even your feet. Mando's powered by mandelic acid. So it stops odor before it even starts. It blocks odor all day. I'm talking 72 hours. I love the scents, too. My favorite is bourbon leather. It smells amazing. You can choose from other fresh options like Cloverwood and Mount Fuji. And the best part, no baking soda, no paraben, just clean, safe deodorant for your whole body. I've added Mando to my daily routine, and honestly, I feel fresher and more confident.

Starting point is 00:24:59 It works way better than just showering alone. Use promo code Cox at shopmando.com to get 20% off plus free shipping. Once again, that's promo code Cox at shopmando.com. And he's over here pointing to all these herbs and all these plants and all the diet and all the natural stuff that you can't patent. And so you think they don't want their pound of flesh? And so you think they don't want their pound of flesh? from him. Yeah. Yeah. They don't want people to know that there's an alternative to natural medicine.

Starting point is 00:25:29 I mean, too, not Marshall, sorry, to pharmaceuticals. So now I'm going to give you some conjecture. I'm going to give you just a concept. And I don't have any evidence. They want Dr. Oz. That's his biggest show. They're going to get to him through me. Okay.

Starting point is 00:25:48 So they come after me for $86 million. The lawyers push back and it goes all the way down. to a no-fault settlement for $9 million. I don't pay a penny. Who pays that? The company, Genesis Today. Oh, okay. Nine million.

Starting point is 00:26:04 Save face, no-fault settlement. And I'm sitting there saying, I spend my entire life helping people. I have helped millions of people on this planet. I'm not talking about hundreds of thousands. I'm talking about millions of people. And I go to work and work 10, 12-hour days and have been a self-made man, and I pay millions and millions of dollars in taxes,

Starting point is 00:26:31 and I have to now be attacked by my own government. While I serve, while I spend my life helping people, I'm now attacked and made to look like a fraudster. I'm out. I walk into the board of directors one day. We had a board meeting, and I won't tell who was on the board, because there were some really, really powerful people on the board that most people would recognize or know. And I take the keys and I throw them on the table and I say, I'm done. Whoever's the largest bidder, I'm walking.

Starting point is 00:27:06 And they're like, come on, let's start the meeting. They think I'm joking. And I'm like, I'm not. I'm done. I'm not going to kill myself. Serve humanity. Build something that's green and that doesn't pollute, that doesn't discharge, that doesn't cause any. harm to anybody, doesn't do anything, doesn't hurt anything. All it does is give and educate and

Starting point is 00:27:29 help people, and now I'm being attacked. I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to spend my life like that, and I walk away. It took me 10 months and a battery of lawyers to negotiate, but I create a separation agreement and walk away from the two companies that I spent 10 years. building. Are those companies still in existence? No, one is. One's not. Okay. Did it get sold or just went under? Went under. Okay. Is that the one with the green coffee? Yes. Really? Yes. Why? Just, I told them. I said you guys are not running this right. And I said to them, they were making some mistakes. They were, they were forgetting the customers. They were changing the formulas. They were cheapening everything. And I tried to tell them,

Starting point is 00:28:23 you guys are making mistakes. You're cheapening what it is that we built. And people are smart. And they're going to know that. You can't sacrifice the product. You're going to go under. I told them, I said, you'll be out of business in two years. I was one week off. Two years in one week. They followed for chapter 11. So during this whole time, once you've, you're, are you retiring again? Mm-hmm. Okay. Is basically retired? Are you retiring again? So you're retired. What's happening with a stunt woman wife? So we actually divorced in 2009.

Starting point is 00:29:03 And for the children's sake, we try to work it out. This is prior to the prior to you stepping away from the company. Stepped away from the company in 2013. Oh, okay. But just prior to that, you had divorced. Divorced. And then we tried to work it out because the girls were still yet. They were still high school, you know, just beginning of high school.

Starting point is 00:29:23 So we're trying to work it out. And so we're on again, off again, on again, off again. Finally, I decide I'm going to buy a place in downtown because I don't want to continue with a difficult, strenuous relationship. And so I buy a place on again, off again, but we had been, we had divorced in November of 2009. All right. Okay. So I meet somebody.

Starting point is 00:29:55 Okay. My current wife, Molly. We fall in love. We start dating. You fell in love before you started dating? You started dating, then you fell in love. That's usually how it happens. Sorry.

Starting point is 00:30:09 Fell in love. Yeah, started dating, fell in love. And fell in love quickly. Right. And that's when all of a sudden, whole landscape started changing. In what way? With Cheryl. Okay.

Starting point is 00:30:22 We had, I think, off again, on again that she thought, we'll always going to be together. Yeah, yeah. So all of a sudden she sees me for the first time, first time, dating somebody else. You don't like that? No. No. How long, do you marry Molly? Mm-hmm.

Starting point is 00:30:43 Okay. Yeah. And Cheryl did not take that well? Didn't take it well at all. Okay. No. And it was interesting. because she started small.

Starting point is 00:30:52 She started like, okay, I want this. Okay, I'll give it. I want the house in Spanish Oaks. Okay, I'll give that to you. That was a lot. Okay, I want this and this and this. Okay. So everything was okay, okay, okay, for the children's sake.

Starting point is 00:31:09 And then it went from, I want this to a tax. And then it just kept, each, every six months, it just kept amping up. you're divorced already. Right. Right. So why am I giving you anything? We're divorced. We have a settlement. Why would I give you? Why give her anything? Well, because you don't want to keep fighting. Because I don't want to fight and I don't want, I don't want there to be tension with the children. Right. So I want to try to have a cohesive co-parenting. I want the children to get along with Molly. I want the children to get along with people that she was going out with because she was dating.

Starting point is 00:31:46 But there was something about Molly. Molly's 20 years. younger than me, 21 or 22 years younger than Cheryl. And there was just something about Molly. I like that. That it was just, there was something about her that Cheryl just couldn't, I don't know, just couldn't take. All right. So how long does this, this goes on until, like, what is there, like, what is the,

Starting point is 00:32:16 so she never, she's never okay with it, never becomes okay with it. okay with it. Never. No matter how hard Molly tried, no matter how many letters, no matter how many, how much, how many, what is it, olive branches, right? No matter how many times she was never, ever okay with it. Was, were you living in, in Dayton? At what point? Well, at, at what point do you move to Dayton? So I moved to downtown Austin. I, move into the place called the Austonian. Okay. And that's the beginning of the separation. Right. That's where all of a sudden it starts to heat up.

Starting point is 00:32:59 Then I sell the Austonian and move to the Ashton, which was across the street, which was an apartment because I was spending more time in Ohio. Then we build a house in Yellow Springs, Ohio that took two and a half years to build. And that's, at that point is probably 2015, I moved to Yellow Springs, Ohio. Okay. And Molly and I are married. And we, and then when the house is finished on Grinnell, the house in Yellow Springs, we move into that house. All right. So I sell all my assets in Texas. And now I'm in Ohio full time. It, oh, okay, okay. I'm sorry. I was thinking the house was and that's the house that Todd purchased. Yes.

Starting point is 00:33:50 That's the house that I built. And that's not in Dayton. It's in. No, Yellow Springs. Yellow Springs. Okay, that's where I'm, I'm, I keep the thing in. They're right next to each other, right? They're a little town.

Starting point is 00:34:00 Right here, from here to that house is, you know, 25 minutes. Okay, so. And you built that house for us to live in for the rest of our life. Because it's, it's an amazing. It's beautiful. Yeah, it is. Yeah, nothing like it. It's wasted on Todd. Yeah, I stayed in the guest. That's true. Yeah. Wow. And yeah, everything that the tile, like everything, it's just super nice. And what's so funny is that, you know, I never put down the blinds. Like the whole walls are just straight glass. The glass. Lord of ceiling.

Starting point is 00:34:43 But, like, you know, when I went in, Todd was like, you know, hey, you can lower those. You feel uncomfortable. And I'm thinking, how can I feel uncomfortable? It's completely surrounded by nothing but nature. Forest. Yeah, there's no, it's nothing but trees. Like, there's nobody out there. It really feels, I hate to use the word, isolated, but it's, it's, you're definitely out there alone.

Starting point is 00:35:05 Like, at no point was I concerned walking around, slept with everything. Never put those blinds out. Yeah. Do you see the spa downstairs? I did. He asked me if he's like, you want to, you know, you want to turn on the spa, go in the spa? And I just felt like, yeah, no, I'm okay. You know, me and him hanging out of the house together in the spa.

Starting point is 00:35:23 I don't know. But think about it. Isn't that, isn't that a natural setting for a nutritionist, a natural path to build? If you think about it, yeah. That's, I built that to recover from all the years of being a type A entrepreneur, a building companies. Because what you do is you basically, you sacrifice. your body, your nervous system, right? You're going and you're churning and you're burning. And I built that house for Molly and I and I built that house to try to go back and heal and undo some of the

Starting point is 00:35:55 damage that I did by driving and building these companies so hard. It's funny you say, I don't know why this popped in my mind, but my, you know, I'll do a podcast, like a two-hour podcast. My wife's a a mechanic. Uh-huh. And she'll go work, whatever, eight, 10 hours a day on boats.

Starting point is 00:36:15 And, and she'll come home and walk in. She'll go, you know, how was, you know, hey, how was your day?

Starting point is 00:36:22 I'm like, I'm exhausted. Like, I did this two-hour podcast. And she's like, two-hour podcasts. Like, she's covered in Greece.

Starting point is 00:36:30 And she's like, I'm like, no, I'm like, I'm like, she's like, you didn't leave the house. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:36:35 And I'm like, I know, but I said, you don't understand. I said, it's, emotionally, I said, as far as anxiety, I said, did you know that it was, Jordan Peterson said that a one-hour

Starting point is 00:36:47 speech is the equivalent, the anxiety equivalent of working an eight-hour day? And she went, I go, like, because that was two hours. I worked 16 hours. She just shook her head and walks off. And she's like, don't give me that. She obviously thinks what I'm doing. And she's like, this isn't real work. I'm like, no, no, there's a lot of anxiety.

Starting point is 00:37:07 Well, you have to track. Right. If you have to, your listening skills have to be a plus. Right. And then your communication skills have to be a plus. You have to be able to answer the question that you're being asked. Well,

Starting point is 00:37:21 I think it's much harder being interviewed. Yeah. Than it is interviewing, admittedly. But a lot of times I jump in with stuff and I'll end up talking to. But so that's why it goes an hour or two hours, and that's roughly about an hour. So I think that's reasonable.

Starting point is 00:37:36 But anyway, so you're living in the house. which is, like I said, amazing and super natural. It's as close as the living outside in nature. But you don't have to deal with nature because you're inside in air conditioning. But it's great because it's so, everything's right there. So, I mean, how long does that go on before your ex-wife just, is she, I mean, because you're clearly away from her at this point.

Starting point is 00:38:08 Oh, she's moved to North. Carolina with her new husband. So she got married. Right. To this big model six foot five, 230 pounds. He's like chiseled. Right. You know, and they moved from Austin to Asheville, North Carolina. Out of sight, out of mind. You should be good. Different world. Living in a different world. Yeah. You shouldn't be an issue for her anymore. Yeah. No, and you wouldn't think so. But during this last five years when I told her, I said, you know, I think that I'm falling in love and I want to let you know, I met a young lady named Molly and she and I are going to start seeing each other and I want to let you know and then I want to let our daughters know. What's the best way you think I should do that?

Starting point is 00:38:54 And at that moment, that's when everything shifted. Well, at that time, there was about a five-year period where I told you she would attack and she, you know, it went from money to, request to then she started attacking my character and then she wrote a letter to the board of directors about me that ended up being false and she retracted it anyway it just got you know without getting into all the ugliness it just got really really nasty

Starting point is 00:39:22 and um i got a call one day and the call was uh from a man that she had been seeing who was ex-military and his name was billy martin and he was a a trainer for snipers. He was in his 60s, very methodical, you know, kind of guy that, you know, folded his napkin. Perfect.

Starting point is 00:39:46 No, it's like every single move that he made was very like, exacting. Right. And he said to me, to me, he goes, I'd like to meet with you in private at your ranch. I had a ranch in Smith, between Smithville and Bastrop, Texas, beautiful pine forest,

Starting point is 00:40:02 forest, 600 acres of beautiful pine forest. And he goes, I'd like to meet you out there. And I'm like, uh-oh. Right. This doesn't sound very good. And I said, why do you want to meet with me? And he said, I want to tell you something that I can't tell you over the phone. And I said, well, Billy, this makes me a little nervous. He goes, you don't need to be nervous, but you need to hear what I have to say. And so I said, okay, but I'm going to probably have a couple of other people there with me. He goes, that's fine, as long as they're not in the conversation with you and I. Right. Long story short, he pulls up in his white truck, and I'm

Starting point is 00:40:36 like, you know, can you kind of show me? Yeah. You know, so he lifts up and shows me boots, shows me shirt, and wasn't packing. I said, come on in. He said, first thing he said to me, you're a dead man. Okay.

Starting point is 00:40:52 That's not a good conversation. That's not a good start. Not with somebody who was a professional sniper. Right. And I went, okay, what do you mean? he goes, your ex-wife, Cheryl, has offered me $1 million in a form of a loan to take you out at $100,000 a year. Each year the loan will be forgiven and then a new loan will be implemented for 10 years. Okay.

Starting point is 00:41:29 And I'm like, why are you telling me? Why are you telling the FBI this? I did. Oh, okay. I was going to say. I did. I did. And so I said, why are you telling me?

Starting point is 00:41:43 He said, because something's not right with her. And he said, he goes, she is going to try to kill you. And I'm not going to get pegged for it. Right. I said, do you understand that as soon as you walk out this door, I'm calling the Austin Police Department? He goes, that's why I'm here. Right.

Starting point is 00:42:04 He goes, I know you will. And here's my number. And you can give them my number. He goes, I want them to interview me. I said, why? He said, because I'm not going to get blamed for something that I know is going to happen. Right. Now, this is an intelligent, 61-year-old sniper instructor who spent his entire life in the military telling you this.

Starting point is 00:42:31 Now, you think I slept well that night? No, that's, no. and so he leaves we have it we we talk for he he tells me everything right and they're not together anymore by the way right so there's are there correct they're not together so that relationship ended he told you this she hasn't met the new husband yet or she just started not okay has not has not you've known this is coming you've known yes correct and so and so he says to me he says you have a camera on what the west end of this building. He goes, you've got a camera on the south end. He goes, you've got a camera on the

Starting point is 00:43:08 southeast end. He tells me where all my security cameras are at my ranch. He'd been there. He told me, he goes, you get up at 7.15. He goes, you run four and a half miles, and you do it at nine minutes and 10 seconds average per mile, and you stop here for water. He knew my exact routine. Did he know it because he'd been surveilling you or she'd been surveilling you? Both. Okay. Both. And why had he, so he had at least entertained either, maybe he didn't entertain the idea, but he at least was entertaining her. He told me he wanted to see how far she'd go. She would go. And when he realized that she would go all the way, that's when he said, I'm out of the relationship. I call the Austin Police Department.

Starting point is 00:44:04 They have four detectives on it. They take it to, they interview me, they interview Billy, they interview Molly, they interview everybody, they interview Cheryl. Well, that probably didn't go over well. Yeah. And then they take it to the DA. And the DA says, oh, you know what? It was four months ago or six months ago.

Starting point is 00:44:28 We have murders. have all these horrible things, we're not going to pursue it. Well, I can kind of, I mean, I hear what you're saying. I kind of understand, like, I think she could beat it as, hey. Sour grapes. Sour grapes. Exactly. Exactly.

Starting point is 00:44:45 Like, I think that's the problem. He's like, that's not a, the slam dunk would be that he agrees to do it. Yeah. And then, of course, they fake the whole thing, you know. They wanted to see money exchange is what they wanted to see. Right. And so he had already, the relationship was, has already soured. And it's too late for him to go back and.

Starting point is 00:45:04 Right. Yeah. So I said, I said to the, I sent them a letter. I said, you're making a mistake. I said there will be, somebody will be killed. It will probably be me or my wife. And I sent this to him. And I said, to the Austin police tomorrow, I said, I'm telling you right now in writing,

Starting point is 00:45:24 you are making a mistake by brushing this under the room. Right. And she denied all this. course when they talk to her. She said, I'm just, I'm angry at him for leaving me and I'm just talking smack. What was the phrase that she used? That's the phrase that she used. Right. Yeah. Okay. I was going to say that, that, and I get that, that's very possible except for the fact that you went out and you're surveilling the place and you're checking it out and you're getting his routine down. Like, you're doing a lot. That's more than just mouthing off.

Starting point is 00:45:59 Well, you know what's the worst part? He said to me, he goes, she showed me the $10 million life insurance policy that she has on your life. That's where the money was coming from. Did you know this existed? Yes. Okay. Yes. Because when you're married and you have a large company, you take an insurance policy out on each other's life.

Starting point is 00:46:17 Right. Because if you go down in an airplane, the government comes in and taxes your business and they put a number on it and then they tax it. You have to have the cash flow. Right. The insurance policy. for the cash flow to pay for the tax. And those still were already in existence once you were different. At MedCan, we know that life's greatest moments are built on a foundation of good health,

Starting point is 00:46:40 from the big milestones to the quiet winds. That's why our annual health assessment offers a physician-led, full-body checkup that provides a clear picture of your health today and may uncover early signs of conditions like heart disease and cancer. The healthier you means more moments to cherish. Take control of your well-being and people. book and assessment today. Medcan, live well for life. Visit medcan.com slash moments to get started.

Starting point is 00:47:06 Forrest, so why not just keep them going? No, well, I said I don't have any use for yours. We're divorced now, so I'm going to let yours go. Will you cancel mine? I'm going to cancel yours. And she said, yeah, absolutely. She kept paying. She kept paying it.

Starting point is 00:47:20 Okay. So he knew the policy. He knew everything about the policy and had had a copy of the policy. and that's how she promised him to the million dollars. So, all right, so at this point, there's nothing else you can do. I went, I completely struck out with the Austin Police Department. Would they do nothing? Right.

Starting point is 00:47:47 And I did get a call like four months later from a detective. And he goes, something about your case doesn't sit right with me. I want to open it back up. Are you okay with that? And I said, please. He goes, it's just something doesn't, it was really a bizarre. He goes, something doesn't feel right. I don't feel like, I don't feel like what your ex-wife was saying was accurate.

Starting point is 00:48:13 And I think that there possibly is, could be a dangerous situation. And I'm like, yeah, this is great. Absolutely. Never heard of. Nothing. Right. He did a little bit of investigation. I think he may have interviewed,

Starting point is 00:48:27 her and Reed, her husband at that point, and not her husband, her boyfriend at that point. And then they just let it go. You ever sit at home watching a documentary and think to yourself, man, I could solve this way better than these detectives. Me too. That's how I got into hunt a killer. It's a premium murder mystery game that's basically a true crime case in a box.

Starting point is 00:48:52 You get all this real feeling evidence, handwritten letters, newspaper clippings, crime scene photos. It's not just reading a story. You're living it. Every little clue matters. Every twist hits hard. It's like being dropped inside of a Netflix documentary. But you're the one connecting the dots. I played Lakeside Slaughter. And honestly, it hooked me right away. The whole case is set at this quiet summer camp where a murder went down. And the evidence, it felt way too real. Camp rosters, personal letters, even photos from the scene. By the end of it, it felt like we had just solved a legit cold case. If you're into true crime or you just want to upgrade your game night, grab hunt a killer at Amazon, Target, Walmart, or hunticiller.com and use crime 20 for 20% off your order and free shipping of lakeside slaughter. It's still up to the DA and he said no and they can only let him do so much. Before they say, hey, can't justify you continuing this.

Starting point is 00:49:50 I'm not going to prosecute. So Molly and I go down to the Green County. we're living in Ohio. We go down to the Green County Sheriff and we say we're afraid for our life. We believe that my ex-wife is going to try to kill me or both of us. And we have a lot of evidence. What can we do? Green County. Yellow Springs. We can't do anything unless you have evidence that she's tried to kill you or unless she's come on your property or unless she has attacked you. We can't do anything. What do you suggest we do?

Starting point is 00:50:28 We know that she's not stable, and we know that she's going to do something really, really bad or try to. Go get your conceal and carry and learn how to use a gun. Learn how to protect yourself and get your license. Okay. Molly, let's do it. Two days later. We go buy pistols. We go sign up for our conceal and canceling.

Starting point is 00:50:54 we neither one of us carried. I mean, I'm a nutritionist. Right. Yeah, I'm packing heat here as a nutritionist. It doesn't make any sense. I stopped, I grew up in Texas, I stopped hunting when I was 14 years old because I didn't want to kill anything.

Starting point is 00:51:08 Right. And so we go and buy pistols and get our conceal and carry license and do what he said. Okay. I mean, are you practicing regularly, or you just get the gun? You go a few times.

Starting point is 00:51:25 Go a few times. I mean, I know how to use a gun. Okay. You know, I grew up in Texas, and I shot a lot until I stopped hunting. Right. Completely got beat up by my brothers for stop hunting. It's like, what's wrong with you? We all hunt.

Starting point is 00:51:40 It's like, not me. So how, at what point do you come and you, had you already built the house? So are you living there? Living there. Yep. And so you're just. live in your life. Yeah. And we have a lawsuit out against Cheryl. Oh, okay. Yeah. So there's a, there's a lawsuit and it's gone on and on and on. There's been depositions. And the attorney's like,

Starting point is 00:52:06 you know, did you tell Billy Martin to kill Lindsay? You know, and she's like, we've got the depositions. Well, yeah, I did. But I was just talking smack. This is all on deposition. Then the attorneys, other attorneys asking her the same question, you know, do you have a life insurance policy? How did Billy Martin know about the lie? I mean, all these questions that you You just can't answer. Yeah. It's just pretty damning. It's so damning.

Starting point is 00:52:32 And so it just makes it more difficult for, more difficult, more difficult, more difficult. And it's all based on her actions. And now it's out there and people know and it's so obvious. Did you take, to me, I would take comfort in the fact that there's no way she does anything. I said that to Molly. Right. She would be the dumbest. They'll come straight to her house.

Starting point is 00:52:57 You, you, Molly's instincts were right. Right. Okay. So guys like, oh, there's no way. She's bad. Everything she's done is on deposition. It's under oath. She's admitted everything.

Starting point is 00:53:10 She's going to lose the lawsuit. There's no way she's going to do anything. Molly. Lindsay, I got a feeling. I got a bad feeling. Man, when your wife tells you that. Intuitions. You better listen.

Starting point is 00:53:25 Because their intuition is usually a lot better than our logic. Yeah. A lot better. And her intuition was scary spot on. And she was having these dreams of a man, huge man, and a black overcoat walking down that driveway. She had it over and over and over again. And then the police report later on shows,

Starting point is 00:53:53 him walking down the driveway texting her okay let's so can we is there anything can we jump to that day yeah February 12th 20 20 12th 11 o'clock 11 08 a.m. And real quick you're you've got surveillance cameras all around your house correct yeah well you saw them yeah everywhere all right but you also have a gate was the gate because I saw the house, there's a fence. There's a 12-foot gate. Yeah, in the very, in the front.

Starting point is 00:54:32 And the gate, or the fence extends what? All the way around the property. Okay. The entire property is completely fenced. Yeah, I didn't know, because where I was staying, you can't even see, I couldn't even see it. It's just forest. So, okay, so what are you, you come home?

Starting point is 00:54:51 We get up. I'm retired. Right. have been retired for, what is that, five years now, five and a half years. We go into Yellow Springs. We do what we normally do. We go to the Emporium. We get coffee.

Starting point is 00:55:07 We get breakfast. We go to Tom's Market. We get some groceries for the evening. We go to a office building that we purchased and that we were refurbishing. and just redoing as a project. And then we go home. We're driving home. It's February, so it's cold out.

Starting point is 00:55:33 And we're going down Grinnell in Mali's White Tahoe SUV. We get to the driveway and we look down the driveway and there's a SUV and there's two cornfields, one on the right past our property and there's a cornfield on the left. And there's a SUV with completely blacked out windows that had backed into a gravel road at where the trucks used to go in and harvest the corn or the soybean. Never, we lived there, I don't know how many years, five years, four years. Never seen a vehicle parked in that gravel road. It's February.

Starting point is 00:56:21 There's no corn, right? Right. It's wintertime. So it's just a flat field. There's nothing there. I think to myself, that's really, really odd. And so I don't really say anything. And so Molly pulls in and she says, I'm going to get the Amazon.

Starting point is 00:56:40 It's Amazon had left something at the gate. I said, I'm going to grab the mail. I'm like kind of like a little uneasy. I go over to the mailbox, which is about 25 feet away. I pull the mailbox lid down and I reach in and I look out my peripheral vision and the car, the SUV, starts to creep out on Brunel and turn towards us. At that moment, it's like two knives going in my kidneys, my adrenal gland. My body dumps adrenaline.

Starting point is 00:57:15 The adrenal glands sit right on top of the kidneys. It felt like somebody had stabbed me with two knives and I was like, it kind of went like, almost. collapse and all my adrenaline dumped into my body and I went oh shit something's not right and so I closed the mailbox and I walk back to the car and I don't specifically I specifically try not to look I don't look at the car the car's creeping down Grinnell and I'm like every step something's not right this is not good I get to the car that I left the passenger I never drive Molly always drives. I left the passenger door open. As soon as I got to the car, I put the mail down, I said, give me your gun. It's the first time I'd ever left my gun at home. I always carried

Starting point is 00:58:04 my pistol. Always. It's the first time in, I don't know, two years since we had them, that I didn't have my gun, my pistol. I said, give me your gun. She didn't say a word. She lifted up the thing, and she took her six hour, three, six, five. handed it to me. I took it, I chambered around. We didn't, I didn't keep a chamber around in it. She didn't keep around in it because the children. Right.

Starting point is 00:58:31 I chambered around. As soon as I chambered and put a round in, a man with a green camo ski mask, walks up, fast walk to her car, her window. He's six foot five. He's 230 pounds. He's got a camo jacket on. he's got a camo ski mask on he's got gloves on and he's got a huge black pistol with a silencer barrel on the end but no silencer just a grooved barrel okay immediately walks up to the car puts the gun right to her temple just as fast as he could i took the gun and i went like this i showed him my gun

Starting point is 00:59:18 his eyes went like this. His eyes got really big. I stepped back behind the car, behind the passenger seat to the seat that's right behind the passenger. Right. Because there's two rows there on a Tahoe. Right. He takes the gun and points it right at me. As soon as he points it, he shifts the gun over to me, I shoot through the window. I shot through the window. I missed my wife's head by four inches. Because the bullet missed the back of the headrest. I shot through the window on the back passenger. I shot through the window on the other one,

Starting point is 00:59:58 and I hit him. And he went back. I don't know where I hit him. I just saw him go back. I dropped down to my knees. I looked under the car for his feet. I saw his feet running towards me. He ran to the back bumper.

Starting point is 01:00:18 He ran to the back of the car. I stayed down low. He comes around like this with the gun, and I shoot up two times, and I hit him. But when you're in a gun fight, you don't know if you're hitting someone. All you're doing, it's happening so fast as you're seeing bodies, you see him flailing. He's running towards me, which didn't make any sense at all because I knew I hit him. Well, the adrenaline must have been shooting through him, too. he might not even notice.

Starting point is 01:00:49 Adrenaline is off the charts. And people say fight or flight, there's not fighter flight. There's not. There's fight, freeze, fight, and then attack. Right. That's what there is. And there's a lot of people will freeze in that situation. He comes around.

Starting point is 01:01:13 I hit him two times. I can hear Molly screaming, literally. screaming for God. She's on the phone with 911. 911's hearing all the gunshots and hearing everything that's going on. And then I'm looking for his feet. I can't find his feet. I stick my head around the bumper.

Starting point is 01:01:37 And he's already 40 to 50 yards down the road towards where the car was in the field. But the car's not there. Right. And so I say to him, I stand up and I go to the back of the car. I point my gun in him and I say, stop, stop or all, and I'm yelling it like a command. And I'm saying stop or I'll shoot, stop or I'll shoot, turn around, stop or I'll shoot. He turns around. As soon as he turns around, he turns around like this, and as soon as he turns around,

Starting point is 01:02:12 boom, boom, I shoot two more times. he drops to his knees. I run towards him as fast as I can, and I'm trying to beat on him, and I can't because I'm running so fast. I'm out of breath. My adrenaline's going, so the barrel of my gun is going like this,

Starting point is 01:02:30 and I can't stay on him, so I get to him. I'm thinking that he's going to shoot me, and when I get to him, I put the gun about two or three inches from his left temple, and I say, show me your hands, and I'm yelling to him, and there's people,

Starting point is 01:02:46 there's, neighbors could hear it. So that's in the police reports, you know, you could hear the commands. And I'm saying, show me your hands, show me your hands, show me your hands, show me your hands now. And he's not responding. And so all of a sudden I hear this, and it's fluid.

Starting point is 01:03:07 And he's breathing in fluid. And that's when I said he hit. Right. Because he was breathing in blood. And it was filling his lungs up. And all of a sudden, he starts to go like this. And he's not coherent. He's not responding to me.

Starting point is 01:03:23 He's not doing anything. At that point, SUV pulls up behind Molly, locks Molly in so she can't get out. The door, the driver's side door opens. The person gets out with dark hair and big sunglasses. and a huge automatic weapon goes to the front of the car and says, Lindsay, no, I'm going to kill Molly. And I'm like, oh my God, it's Cheryl.

Starting point is 01:03:58 I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. And so, I don't know. I think she thought that I was going to execute him. Right. Because I'm sitting here going, show me your hand, show me your hands. I'm not going to execute him. That'd be crazy. And I didn't need to.

Starting point is 01:04:15 He was breathing in his own blood. And she runs over to the car and disappears because she's running to shoot Molly. Right. I take off running as fast as I can, not knowing, am I going to get shot in the back? Right. Get to the car. Literally ran the fastest that I've ever run in my entire life. Been as fast as I could.

Starting point is 01:04:38 Came around the corner where that old mailbox is, that old stone. column is to the left. Soon as I turned around that stone column and I ran right towards Molly's car, Cheryl is on Molly's driver's side and has the gun pointed right down on her.

Starting point is 01:05:00 Molly's laying down. I couldn't see Molly. I could hear screaming. She's saying please, she's begging Cheryl to not kill her. Cheryl sees me, turns the gun towards me, towards my head. I drop down, and I shoot her five times.

Starting point is 01:05:18 Whoa. She goes back, falls to the right, drops the gun. Gun is about a foot from her hand, and she starts making these noise. So she takes her last breath, and Motley hears it and thinks that she's still alive. And I grab Molly's face, and I say, it's over. I go, they're both dead. It's over. And 911 is on the phone.

Starting point is 01:06:26 And the 911 dispatch says, Mr. Duncan, Mr. Duncan, who's dead? So they think they've got, you know, this great confession. Right. And I say, the two people that tried to kill us. And she goes, who shot them?

Starting point is 01:06:47 And I said, I did. And she goes, how do you know they're dead? And I said, they're dead. Right. And Molly is going into a full panic attack and she can't get her breath. And I'm taking her by her head. And I'm saying, stop, it's okay. You don't need to worry.

Starting point is 01:07:05 And she can hear Cheryl making these horrible gargling noises, these noises that I can't, you know, those noises will never leave my mind. They're with me forever. And so she's, I'm telling her, you don't need to panic. Stop. I go, get out of the car. She goes, no, I'm not getting out.

Starting point is 01:07:27 And I say, she's dead. They're both dead. You're okay. You're safe. And I said, this whole thing is over with now. The whole thing is over with. I kept telling her that. And then I said, oh, and I think there's more, this is how fast PTSD kicks in.

Starting point is 01:07:52 This is seconds. And I think automatically there's more people. coming out of the car because they kept coming. Okay? The first guy came, completely unexpected out of nowhere. Cheryl came, completely unexpected out of nowhere. So I think there's automatically, my mind goes, how many rounds did you shoot? Right.

Starting point is 01:08:16 Only have 10 rounds in your clip. Where's the other clip? Who's in the car? Who's coming next? So I say to Molly, I say stay right here, don't move. She's trying to catch her breath. I walk around, look away from the car,

Starting point is 01:08:35 walk over to the passenger side, drop my clip, put the new clip in, put another round in, then I walk over to the car, open the door, put my gun in the car, waiting to hear shots. Because as soon as I hear a shot, I'm going to unload my clip in the car. Nothing happens.

Starting point is 01:09:00 I look in the car. There's nobody in the car. I go back to Molly. I pick her up. Take her away from Cheryl. I check to see if Cheryl's breathing. She's not. I heard her take her last breath.

Starting point is 01:09:18 I walk her around to the corner of the car. 911 says, Mr. Duncan, are you armed? I say, yes, I am. She said, will you please disarm yourself? Will you put your gun down? I said, absolutely not. I said, I will not put my gun down until I see a uniform police officer here. That's the only time I will put my gun. At that time, police officer pulls up, lights on, pulls right up in the middle of granale, shuts the road off right by the SUV. and he looks at me. He doesn't get out of his car.

Starting point is 01:09:59 I take my gun. I hold it up in the air. I walk over. I put it right in front of his hood. I let it down. My hands up. Walk over. I hold Molly.

Starting point is 01:10:12 He gets out of the car. He doesn't do one thing. He knows that I'm not. Yeah. A threat of any kind. Second officer comes. Third officer comes. Sheriff comes.

Starting point is 01:10:24 then BCI comes, the helicopters come, they shut off the thing, then the van comes, then the print van comes for prints, then the ballistic van comes, and all of a sudden, no lie, there's 35 to 40 detectives, officers, shut the road down. Everything. The whole police force. Well, no, it was four counties. They came from green, they came from Yellow Springs, they came from, um, Cedarville, they came from Zinia, they came from all the different counties. And it was just an absolute nightmare. They had helicopters above. Molly and I get separated. She gets put in the

Starting point is 01:11:11 back of a car, police car. She is claustrophobic. So she goes into a panic and at begs them to open the door, let her have, you know, just open the door for me until you leave, until we go, they put me in a separate car. They take us to the Green County Sheriff's Department through the back roads because the media had already started swarming. They thought it was Dave Chappelle's in a shootout because Dave had owned the property across the street and I think he let his parents live there. And so they thought that it was something to do with Dave Chappelle.

Starting point is 01:11:50 They knew it was had to do with the big house on Grinnell. Yeah. So a nightmare. absolute hell living living hell what do the police say to you when they get you down to the police station and they question you i mean to me it just seems so overwhelmingly obvious that it's self-defense but then it it it it it does for me right but they have to investigate yeah everything you got two dead bodies you've got rounds everywhere, you have blood everywhere, you have shell casings everywhere, you have windows in Molly's car shot out, the fence, holes in the fence, I mean, it's like,

Starting point is 01:12:40 it's just like an absolute horror scene. And my dogs across the fence just going crazy, barking like crazy. Are they going to attack us? I go, no. here's their names, just say their names, and then take them back to the house. We couldn't go in our house. They took all the computers. They took everything.

Starting point is 01:13:05 Are there surveillance cameras outside of the front? They weren't working. The cameras had been off. We had never used them. We had never really, you know, needed to go in and check anything. And so the camera, they were, the system was not working. But what was really interesting, what was really kind of crazy is one of the deputies was walking by the scene between Molly's car and Cheryl and Reed's car.

Starting point is 01:13:36 And when they walked by it, he looked in the car and he saw himself. There was a phone on a phone holder, and he saw himself on the phone. And so he backed up and he walked forward again and saw himself again. and then he went like this and he's like, I'm being filmed. And then he walked over to, he called the sheriff, Sheriff Fisher. He says, Sheriff Fisher, come here, look at this.

Starting point is 01:14:06 He goes, I'm being filmed. We're on film right now. They had set up cameras, three cameras. They had bought three white cameras and spray painted them the color of the trees, bolted them into the trees, and they were video. videoing the whole thing, and they had communication devices. So they were communicating with each other.

Starting point is 01:14:30 Okay. They'd been, had, was it just for that time or had they been watching you? They'd been watching this. When they did the investigation, they found they had been there nine months and 12 months before. And the, and the Reed, walking down the driveway, that Molly, the dream that Molly had had actually happened. And she kept having the, that dream over and over again. And she didn't understand why. And he's like, I'm walking down the driveway. I see a dog. It's a gray-colored dog. It looks like a pit bull. It might be a bull mastiff. And there's a copper-colored dog. One looks really strong and really aggressive. Oh, here he comes now. He's driving through the, and then he, this is their, this is their texting. They're, they're,

Starting point is 01:15:15 casing the place out for over a year. Just like with the sniper, she had your, she had your, she had your, your movements down. Everything. Everything. Knew where we went in the morning. Knew when to wait. Knew where to set the cameras up. Knew every single step that we made. What was the plan just to execute the two of you? Kill us. They had written out notes. They had notes written. Get them inside the gate. Make it as painful as possible. Kill both of them. Kill the dogs. burn the house down, we'll need jet fuel, the house is made of tile, not wood. It's all tile and all

Starting point is 01:15:57 glass. Get, buy jet fuel, bring jet fuel. Go to Costa Rica. They had one-way tickets to Costa Rica. They had fake driver's license. They had fake passports. They had multiple names. They had covered over the North Carolina tags with Ohio tags, and the tags were all written in Cheryl's handwriting. they had fake license paper tags put over their regular tags. She was fully, they both were fully understood that they were immediately going to be suspects, and they were just, they didn't give a shit about that. They're just going to leave. One-way tickets to Costa Rica, had cash, had 300 rounds in the car.

Starting point is 01:16:36 So it's gone way beyond the, I want $10 million in life insurance. Now, I just want this guy dead. Way beyond it. Way beyond it. But way beyond, I just want this guy dead. Way beyond. What went wrong with this woman's psyche? No, I ask myself that question all the time.

Starting point is 01:17:00 I drive back to, when last time I went to Los Angeles, I drove by the house that we lived in, just stopped. I just look at it and go, why? Why did that even, how does that even happen? How does someone that you love that you have children with that you spend 10 years, 12 years of your life, like kill you, try to kill you? So when you got down, when you got to the police station, they've obviously seen what, but they haven't seen anything yet. They didn't start investigating until the case was so serious. they didn't start interrogating us.

Starting point is 01:17:50 I tell BCI, Bureau of Criminal Investigations from Columbus, rolled in there. Several of these guys rolled in there, and then they all came in. Then they're like, tell us what happened. You go through the story. Through the whole story. And then they say, to me, they go, where were you trained?

Starting point is 01:18:14 And I say, what do you mean? they go, well, you've had training before. They go, do you know how many times you shot your weapon? And I said, no. I know I changed my clip. Right. They go, you shot your weapon 10 times. They go, do you know how many times you hit your target?

Starting point is 01:18:33 And I said, no. And they said 10 times. They go, was your targets moving? I said, yes. They go, where were you trained? I go, I wasn't trained. They go, Mr. Duncan, we're going to read. We're going to know everything about you.

Starting point is 01:18:48 You might as well tell us now. I go, you guys, I have no training. None. I go, I hunted when I was a kid in Texas, and I stopped hunting because I didn't want to killing him. They just looked at me like, I was lying. Right. Yeah, it's not like even,

Starting point is 01:19:06 it's two men with weapons firing at one another, moving the likelihood that they hit every single time. time is very unlikely. This is you, two people. Yeah, moving. Moving, ducking, bobbing, weaving. Out of breath. Adrenaline going, out of breath.

Starting point is 01:19:28 And one of his was in his wrist, blew his back of his wrist off, which was his shooting wrist, his right hand. And the other one was in the temple. But it didn't hit solid. Right. It went through, it went side of the, the, the rest were all heart. in chest cavity. So there's no way they thought that I had no trained,

Starting point is 01:19:54 that I had never been trained before. At what point, like during the first interview, when they interview you, did you feel like at the end of the interview, they were like, okay, I think this is a self-defense? I never thought it. I just told them everything. They said, can we swab your mouth? I said, sure.

Starting point is 01:20:16 I'm saying, did you get the feeling from them? Like they were thinking, oh, this is self-defense? I didn't care. Oh, okay. No, I was so traumatized and I was so, I mean, I told them. I even told them, I said, when they put the gun to Mali's temple, I went on the hunt. Right. I told them.

Starting point is 01:20:40 I said, that's the only way. They go, did you ever think that you were going to get shot? I said, I knew I was a dead man. They go, how did you know you were a dead man? I said, when he was coming around the back, I go, I actually held my breath, and I went like this. And then I shot. They go, why? I said, because I knew I was going to take one or more rounds.

Starting point is 01:21:04 I said, I didn't want them to kill Molly. I said, so I held my breath because I knew I was going to take a round, and all I wanted to do was kill him. Survived long enough to, yeah. You knew you were a dead man when the sniper probably showed up and said, you're a dead man. You said, you've been knowing this is kind of coming. But they knew when I said, I knew I was going to take around. So all I wanted to do was kill him so he didn't kill Molly. You don't tell that during an investigation.

Starting point is 01:21:30 I think they knew. Yeah. They knew. They had, I mean, there was masks. They pulled a mask off of the guy. They said, do you know? They said to Molly and I, they said, in different rooms, they said, did you know who the man was? And I said, I had no idea.

Starting point is 01:21:44 I go, it was probably a hitman. Hitman number three. They go, what do you mean? I told him about Billy. And there's another one I haven't told you about Chad. And they said, what if we showed you a picture of him? Would you be able to recognize Mali's husband? I mean, Reed's husband?

Starting point is 01:22:03 I mean, Cheryl's husband. And I said, yes. Here's the picture. Oh, my God. That's Reed. Yeah. I had no idea. No idea it was him.

Starting point is 01:22:17 I just knew it was some huge guy. Had you ever talked to him before? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Had a mask on. No, no, I'm saying, but you knew, okay. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:22:30 And when you had conversations with him in the past, had they always been civil? Except one time during a deposition. Oh, yeah, that's right. During a deposition, we had words one time. and he got really disrespect. You must really question relationships now. You feel like you can't trust anybody or?

Starting point is 01:22:55 I don't feel like you can't trust anybody. I just feel like you. Right. I mean, how can you love someone and then turn around and be forced to kill them? Right. That is the most twisted, crazy thing. that I could ever imagine. And I still believe in humanity.

Starting point is 01:23:17 I still believe that there's good. I mean, you know the first question my oldest daughter asked me? When they got here, they landed. She goes, I want you to answer a question, Daddy. I said, what? She goes, was mom evil? And I said, no, she wasn't evil. I go, she was just lost.

Starting point is 01:23:41 She's just hurting. The last thing you tell your daughter, is that one of their parents? is evil. Because she was a, do you know what I'm saying? It was just, he had a compulsion or there was just something. No, she had, she was, she was a former world champion kickboxer. She beat everybody in four weights.

Starting point is 01:24:07 She grew up with five brothers. I think the brothers were abusive. In today's world, back then, it wouldn't be considered abusive. Right. 1667. in today's world, clearly it would be considered abusive. She always wanted to be able. She always wanted to be one of the brothers.

Starting point is 01:24:32 She always wanted to go with and do things with him. They were, no, you're a girl, you can't go. So she starts doing karate. The karate makes her feel like she's somebody strong and she's good. She excels in karate. She ends up becoming a sixth-degree black belt. Shekai karate. She ends up fighting at bars and winning. Then she ends up doing kickboxing and ends up with world titles, beats everybody in her weight, then goes up a weight,

Starting point is 01:25:05 beats everybody, goes up another way. Hollywood sees her and says, my God, this is crazy, you should be a stum woman. You'll make a lot more than you will kickboxing. This is back before and a day and all that. So then she starts making tremendous amount of money doing stunts until they drop her owner in. So she was very aggressive. She was very capable. She was an expert shot. She could break a gun, a pistol down 10 times faster than me and put it back together. She could break a pistol down and put it back together in 60 seconds, maybe 65 seconds.

Starting point is 01:25:48 The whole thing. She was an expert. Your daughters, they land, they know what's happened. Right, they already know. Well, the most difficult thing in my entire life was that night when they finished interrogating me, they said, you have to call your daughters. And they go, you have to tell them. And they can't be driving and they have to be with somebody else.

Starting point is 01:26:13 So I'm sitting there and the police are telling me, I have to call my daughters, tell them that I shot and killed their mother, and that they can't be driving a car and that they have to have somebody with them. That's the most difficult thing that I've ever done. So they arrive, you know, you, what are they saying? Other than the, you know, the question, it's just... Dad, why? How did this happen?

Starting point is 01:26:47 They know all this is kind of going on. Like, I mean, are they... They know something's not right with mom doing this. Or so it wasn't like they had ever taken sides like, oh, no, mom's right, you're wrong. It was always kind of like, was it always kind of like, why are you acting like this? Like, why don't you just? Yes, but they played it. When you, when you, when you, when you, two parents are going through a difficult separation.

Starting point is 01:27:16 You don't want to take one side. You don't want to take, right? But they played it to their band. Oh, okay. They, they. Yeah, yeah. So at some point, do you get a phone call from the police where they say, hey, look, you're completely cleared? No, I have to go in front of a grand jury.

Starting point is 01:27:36 I have to go in front of right there in Green County. I have to go in front of the DA, the assistant DA. I think there was about 16 people in that courtroom. And Molly and I were there. and they said and our attorneys were there and they said Molly you're going to go first

Starting point is 01:28:03 and you're going to be in there for about four or five hours and you get up on the stand you'll take the oath and you just tell what happened exactly what happened and they said Lindsay you're going to be in there for the whole day

Starting point is 01:28:17 after Molly and you'll have to come back tomorrow and you do the same thing you'll take the oath the DA will ask you to what happened that day and you will take your time and take them to exactly what happened and Molly was in there 35 minutes. I went in and I was in there 45, 50.

Starting point is 01:28:50 I told him what happened. There wasn't a dry eye in the place. And when I walked out, they said, you will be exonerated. Right. Talk that they had a grand jury to begin. It was a big, it was a very, what is it? A lot of press. It was very.

Starting point is 01:29:10 It was a lot of press. It was very visual. Everybody had followed it. And she was a beloved stunt woman, right? Like she had a huge fan. Huge following. Huge. She had been on the cover of Black Belt magazine.

Starting point is 01:29:26 She represented epitimate. epitome of strong woman before that was a thing you know um she was loved and it was just all over the news and when mollie and i finally got home soon as we walked in the house we turned on the tv and there's deborne norville on inside edition immediately saying oh you're not going to believe what we have tonight. There was a husband and wife ambushed in Yellow Springs, Ohio, and you'll never guess who was lying and waiting. Just sensationalizing.

Starting point is 01:30:10 Right. The whole thing. And then TMZ, and then it's just all over the news. You just can't get away from it. And they just want to sensationalize the juiciness. Stump woman and famous nutritionist on Dr. Oz and big million-dollar house. and it's just all this juice. They're just looking for juice.

Starting point is 01:30:32 And we're sitting here going, this is our life. This is an nightmare. I'm sorry that that happened, but given the situation, it couldn't have ended better. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, unfortunately, you know,

Starting point is 01:30:53 and you didn't create this situation. So, but listen, out of all the ways that it could have gone wrong, that was the best. possible outcome. I mean, it may not feel like that, but. When we went to the, finally went to detective, he called us in. After it was all over with, and I was completely exonerated.

Starting point is 01:31:15 And he goes, I'm going to do something. It's not going to be comfortable. And he goes, and you can get up and leave if you want to. I said, he said, but I'm going to take you through that. He goes, I'll tell you that every single, he goes, we prosecuted. He goes, we investigated this case. because it was high-profile, the most high-profile case that they'd ever had, he said, as if you were guilty, as if you committed homicide.

Starting point is 01:31:42 He said, every single thing that you and Molly told us showed up to be true with evidence. He goes, you did not tell us one lie, you did not embellish one thing. He said every single thing is backed up with the evidence. That's why it took so long. but to have to go in front of the grand jury. And that's why the defense is not interested in prosecuting the case. And he said, I'm going to take you through the evidence, and we sat there.

Starting point is 01:32:13 Molly had to get to leave because she was, I think she threw up. But we saw the bodies, we saw the holes, we saw the rounds, we saw the shell casings, the blood. We saw the paramedics had opened to close. clothing up. We saw the holes. We saw everything. It's like never has left.

Starting point is 01:32:37 It's just a nightmare. Just the whole, everything he showed us for that hour and a half or however long it was, it's like living hell. Did the cameras they had set up? Did they capture images or they were just? They didn't tell us.

Starting point is 01:32:54 Oh, okay. They didn't. But they had enough evidence with the handwritten notes and the, you know, the fake driver's license. Yeah, yeah, it was pretty obvious.

Starting point is 01:33:04 It's laid out pretty, there's no other explanation. Well, Cheryl's laying there. The gun was afoot from her hand, and they had 300 a rent. Oh, my. Oh. Yeah. So it was, you know, the whole thing was just, and it doesn't ever leave you. The good thing about it is I don't ever get stuff before.

Starting point is 01:33:27 Because when you've been through something like that. Everything else seems trivial. Every day is a good day because today's a free day for me because I'm supposed to be dead. Sheriff Fisher said, I'm going to be honest with you, Lindsay. Based on the facts that I see and that we've looked at, he goes, you and Molly would have had a better chance of going and buying one Ohio State lottery ticket and winning the entire thing with one ticket than you were surviving the ambush that you survived. He goes, based on the evidence and the preparation, he goes, I've never seen it. He goes, I've been in the police force for over 40 years. He goes, I've never seen anything like this perform.

Starting point is 01:34:12 He goes, you two are beyond lucky to be a lot. He goes, you're blessed. He goes, I don't know how you got out of this a lot. And if you handed me a gun and told me to shoot 10 times and hit 10 times, zero out of zero out of a thousand times i would never be able to do it so there was something there was a there was a protection i'm not you know big into oh yeah i was protected there was something else there there was a higher power there was evil there and there was a higher power there and you could hand me a gun and i could never do that and i could try a thousand times couldn't do it

Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - Celebrity Nutritionist Survives Assassination Attempt 1m Reward

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.