Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - Con Man Reveals Cons, Scams, and Schemes | MATT COX TRUE CRIME PODCAST

Episode Date: December 29, 2023

Con Man Reveals Cons, Scams, and Schemes | MATT COX TRUE CRIME PODCAST

Hey, this is Matt Cox, and I am, what happened? And this is Isaac, do I introduce myself or no? This is my first time, so you got to tell me what to and not to do. All right, yeah, please, easy, easy. Kiss me first. Just the tip, just the tip. Okay, so Isaac, this is, this is Isaac Allen, and he goes by Zach. Zach.

And that was my street name, yes. It's so tough for a black guy named Zach. one of them hard names you know um yeah so that's good to say i don't think that okay okay so um yeah so basically uh you've you've been you're you're you're basically a fraudster is that what you're you're you're uh that's my unofficial title yeah so basically a fraud so you've been locked up multiple times how many times you've been locked up in prison in state or federal um i've locked up probably about eight times in state or federal or both Well, I've only locked up one time in federal, multiple time in state, so, you know.

It's because the state gives you the little sentences. That's right. They're the ones that they set you up for the home run, you know what I'm saying? So, all right, so what were all the different charges you've been charged with? Most of them were like credit card fraud, like lying misstatements, like identity theft. Right, like lying on an application. Yes, false swearing, you know. Like if you get a driver's license and give them bad information, they call that false swearing.

You know, false swearing to me is frigging. You know, use the word frigging. That's a false swear. Oh. He cracks himself up. I do. I do. I break myself.

But, you know, like, what is a false swearing? You know, like, I solemnly do swear. What aggravated identity theft? I don't know. I stole someone's like. How did it become aggravated identity theft? Well, it's like you raped the identity off. off of them is what it is.

All right, so basically we're not going to tell your story today. We're just going to talk about, because we're basically working on writing an outline of Zach's story. Correct. Which is a super cool story, by the way. So, but, you know, like both

stories, it goes here and then you have to be able to kind of say, okay, well, that's interesting, but it doesn't further the overall story. So we're kind of what we're structuring that we're writing up an outline, then we're I'm going to write a whole story. But in the meantime, we end up having just a ton of a ton of different, well, similar stories involved, you know, similar stories. And there's just all these separate stories.

And then every time we end up having a conversation about something, it ends up being like an hour or two hours. And it goes, well, how'd you do that? Well, I don't understand. What happened here? What happened here? So I thought that would make a cool, like, that would make a cool podcast, like just two guys, two fraudsters. Or, you know, I would say con man. Conman.

Because nobody knows what a fraudster is, you know? Like, my, my, my, what about scam artists? So like, so the names are con man. I don't want to say, hey, my name's Matt Cox. I'm a scammer. It does, it's con man's better. Con man sounds classy. But what about a scam artist?

Scam artist. You know, that sounds to me skeezy. That sounds like a guy that, that does like the three, the, the, what is it, three card Monty. That's what it sounds like. That's a scam artist. Well, it gives you the artist's title, which means you're creative. See, a fraudster sounds like a super villain.

You know, this is the fraudster. But con man. But con man sounds like to me, a con man is someone who can, it's a, to me, con men run like long cons. Like, but like scam artists do like short cons. They do like three card Monty or they, you know, They pick your pocket. They do something.

Conman sounds like swindling someone. Right. You know, whereas like, okay, so a schemer, because I got a lot of different names. I got like schemer, you know, co-schemers, because they listed it like co-schemers, fraudster, and a scammer. You know, so they gave me multiple names. So when I look at that, I always wondered. Did you get mastermind? I got masterminds.

In the newspaper, in the newspaper, mastermind. Actually, mine was, yes, Massa, mine. No. He's going to turn into a whole black lives, no, not a black life, but just, it's thought I throw that joke in there. Yes, Massa, mine. But, go ahead.

But, no, I didn't get, I got, like, the, the head of the scheme or the guy in charge, ringleader, that was the, that was the term. And that, that's circus. circusy to me and you know like because like a fraud ring right what is that like tons of people could be like three people but they make it sound like a fraud ring could be but you're saying circusy like like watch as he makes your watch disappear this is not already gone bad um all right so what do you what would you say i say con man what do you say i'd say i'd say uh scam scam

artist I would it was mostly scams they but I've heard your what's going on okay um yeah but your stuff to me that seems short like a short con to your scams although they were quick like you didn't do anything that lasted you didn't run any as far as I know from knowing your story you didn't do any scams that lasted six months it was always like you get the credit card you go out you run out the credit card and it's like within a few days it's over right for for for a particular victim or a particular person or whatever we were doing, it was always something we were doing to get money. Right.

So it was a return of money. So it's an idea that returns money, which is, to me, is a scam. Con artists, to me, is always talking someone out of money. Right. Like, to me, the con is getting someone to legitimately hand you money, whereas a scam is to kind of take their rules and use it against them. I agree, but I mean, I agree with you, but I always say con man, because that's what people know. Like, if you say scammer, you know, to me, scammers are people that do something on the computer.

You know, scam artists or a con artist or scam artist is somebody that's, you know, it's a short con. It's a very quick con. And a con man is somebody that does a long con. Like, and even though all of those are interchangeable, whatever, we're getting off topic. All right. The point is, two things. try not to shake the desk oh my fault because my mic's going to bang in it uh secondly um so i thought we would talk about we would just talk about different types of of scams okay

so like i was good for instance you were you were doing one of the scams you were doing was uh the um well let's not let's talk about the one me scam but we'll talk about that in it okay you want to say that for last oh i love because i love that's my face favorite scam. My favorite scam, he called, he wasn't me. This wasn't me scam. And I, I love that scam. You know, you can love a scam, which I can love many scams. So, uh, did you ever do the tax scam? What do you mean by tax scam? What they call it the drop? Do you ever do that on like, you know, where you get someone's information and you file taxes on for them prior to? Well, I, I, I dealt with some people who, who did stuff like that.

But that was never my forte. I was kind of always able to assist in that, but I was never, like, in the midst of that. Right. So that kind of operated tangently, you know, whatever I had going on. That never stopped me from getting caught up and accused of it. It was a tangently occurring. You know, I'm witnessing as it's going on, and somehow I got accused of being the person putting it together. What about, you just can't stop jiggling.

this thing. I can't. I don't be getting up off of it. So what were you were, so your credit card scams were what? Um, it, it, they varied from getting card numbers and the simple of ordering items with card numbers or buying stuff with card numbers. Right. Um, one time, what we did was I would take, I had access to thousands of card numbers and for money what I did was I would pay people's bills right for with

stolen card numbers and just get half of what the bill is so if you had a $200 electric bill I'm like look I'll pay it with a fraudulent card number and then you just give me $100 you know never thinking of the consequences that came behind that for the person you know it's like so now you end up paying

300 but hey in the short terms your lights to be back off you know what I'm Let's do the here and now. Let's think about the here and now. What was the other one? The other one was, I know a good one, was the rental car thing. The rental car is because the security guy. But tell, I mean, tell us what happened.

What were you doing? All right. Well, so under, under. So that's why I, so let me just say this first. That's why I use the term scam, why I have different labels. because to me a scam is using their rules against them. Right. Because all organizations, all financial transactions,

go by certain patterns. And they have things in place for security. Right. But usually there's a gaping hole in there that I kind of exploit to use against them. So what I was able to do is use the rental cars convenience of returning customers or gold ring or preferred or the rental aisle for national using those convenience they gave the customers against them. What I found is that if you rented a car and I had access to someone that made fake IDs, right, I could actually book your rental car twice. So if you rented a car for like

three days, I could take your reservation and reset it again and make it for three weeks like two days after you rented a car. And then if I had a fake ID to kind of match your driver's license number, I could pick that car up and rent it. So what's trying to drive the car for three weeks? Drive the car for three weeks. And all I would do is just use your gold ring or your preferred service to convenience of just picking the car up. And what's so funny is I'd pick it up from the same location you picked it up from. Who was this through? All of them.

Hertz, Avis. I had a penchant for Hertz and which turned into Hertz having a penchant for me. So real quick. So where were the credit cards? So how are you figuring out that this customer has a gold? Well, I was, I myself was a gold member. And what I realized is when I would go and I'd pick up my car, when I would take the tag that was in the window, because what would happen is when I would drive out, the guy would look at my license, look at the tag, and then hand me the tag back, or hand me both of them back. So I said, well, what is he looking at?

So when I look, he's looking at the last four digits of my driver's license number. The credit card and all that stuff's on file is irrelevant. it. So because I have a credit card on file, if I rebook a reservation, it'll use the same credit card, right? And all I would need to get out with the car is an ID that had the last four digits of my number. So I told myself, I'm like, so if I duplicate, because I started out only really doing one state, I only could have California. So what we would do is we would go to the Hertz lot at like 9 p.m. and walk around the gold aisle ring and look okay hey hey here's a renter from California last four is three eight seven nine right you know and so we'd write that down

get a ID with that person's name and the last four is seven eight four nine and then now I can pick up a car the next day for two weeks okay and what were you doing how are you making money on that I'm renting them out to people who, a street pharmacist who couldn't get rental cars themselves and wanted to look fly. The drug dealers renting escalates. Yes. So they'd say, hey, I'll give you $700 if you can, absolutely. So then I'd loan it out to them. So what happened was that was so easy and so exploited that when it all came crashing down, the guy goes, you know, you had 60 beat,

vehicles of mine out from one location. Who's the guy? It hurts, yes. What happened? You got a phone call? Well, actually there was, so this was an addiction. This became to where I no longer went and got the cars. People who were giving it to dealers, like the phone is ringing.

Business was booming. So I no longer went and got it, so I hired people to get it to go pick up the cars. So what happened is my hiries, you know, they had trouble in one spot. So I said, okay, let's go here. Okay, they had trouble there. And I said, okay, let's go here. So we just expanded and keep picking up cars. So at one place, I guess they got hip and they arrested them.

Right. So once they got arrested, you know, they called me up and I asked them what's going on? And I said, what have you told them? They said, I haven't told them nothing. What, as John Gordon would tell you. Why just survive back to school when you can. thrive by creating a space that does it all for you, no matter the size. Whether you're taking over your parents' basement or moving to campus, IKEA has hundreds of design ideas and affordable

options to complement any budget. After all, you're in your small space era. It's time to own it. Shop now at IKEA.ca.com. They misspoke. What they meant to say was there's nothing I haven't told them. It's a double negative. That's right. So, I guess they told them who I was and gave him my number. So the person called me. The head of security. The head of security for the National for Hertz called me. And I'm on the phone.

He was very nice. Right. So he said, so he goes, listen, I'm going to make, he made me a deal. He didn't even know who I was. Right. So he knew you were the ringleader. Yes, as you would call it. So, so he told me, he said, all right.

he was very cordial so when he called he called me something he didn't have my name i you know i went by zach but he called me black or tack it was something similar so he's like he goes hey i know what you're doing i said really what am i doing he said you've got a person on the inside of my company that's turning giving you information and exploiting our customers right He says, but you don't. That's not true. I didn't at all. Right.

So he said, I'm going to make you a deal. He said, if you give that person up, I guarantee you immunity that you will not be arrested or charged in this case. Can you do that? So I'm saying, well, I mean, I thought about it. I'm thinking to myself, well, I'll call in tomorrow and say, can I speak with Betty? Betty, what's your last name? Betty, I hope you don't have kids that need you. But anyway.

So he asked me if. I would give that person up, right? And I told him I absolutely would not. You did say I don't have anybody? No, I didn't. Like, I was amazed that he thought I had someone on the inside, you know? And I said, I'm not going to give him up. Right.

Then he said, well, you know, I'm going to find you, and I'm going to prosecute you to the full extent of the law. He goes, you're going to make a mistake. And I told him, I said, no, because I've done. That same conversation. I said, I'm done. I'm done doing that is what I told him. I'm done with that completely.

And I gave that up. I was done. I never touched Hertz after that. Yeah, but what happened? You forgot the part where you gave him a name or something? You said what your name was? And he went to the prison? Well, see, here's the funny part.

Well, it gets explicit because, like, I was using a name of a buddy of mine that I met in jail. Right. And I was actually legitimately renting. a car, right? So I had another friend that needed to rent a car legitimately. I said, well, look, we're going to do it legit. So I said, what I'll do is I'll make you an ID under, well, that was my version of legit. So I said, look, I'll make you an ID with the name I've been using to rent a car and they'll just put it on my little $1,000 secure card. So I gave him an ID under my name. He was white, I was black. So when he went to pick up a car, they harassed him. And then the next day,

I went to pick up a car and they harassed me. So the guy that called said, well, there's a couple of people playing this guy. You got a white guy and a black guy. So he's like, what's going on? So what he did, though, because my friend was still in prison, he went to the prison and interrogated my friend. Actually, he interrogated him pretty bad. The security, the head of security, He went to the prison and interrogated, the guy saying, we know this. Like, how did that guy get your information? And he had no idea.

He had no idea. Well, I mean, you know, he was a friend, you know. So, you know, what do friends do? Friends still friends' identity. A friend with a guy named Scott Cugnell who stole his identity. I mean, you know, I mean. Cashed about $400,000 in his name. He had some questions.

I know. So we say scammers, you know, we still friends' identity. We love you. When they showed up at Scott's house, They showed him my picture. And he goes, that's Matt Cox. Really? They go, they go, they said, immediately, he said, they said, he just cashed like $400,000 in your name.

And he said, he goes, I'll tell you right now, he'll be hard to catch. And it was like, you're not helping me at all. That's Matt Cox. Yeah. They said, do you know this person? Yes. I do. But anyway, so, yeah, that's the part I always thought was funny.

They actually went to the prison. The guy from Hertz was, they must have been, listen, listen, a ton of money. Yeah, listen, 65 cars. Like, an average Hertz car was 40 grand. This is back in 2006. So these guys aren't bringing the cars back? No, they were keeping them. They went out and listen, it, the whole experience was nerve-wracking because there, I had so many people out with cars.

Like, they would tell me that the police, the police would surround the car. would low jack the car, the police would surround the car and wait, right? So two police officers pulled up in these people's yard driveway and just parked by the car, waited. They're on the phone with me in the house, ducked down. Like, the police are out there, man. I don't know what they're going to do. The police were waiting for the record to come, load up the car, and leave.

Then the police left. And they're like, what happened? They go, the police left. So I started getting calls like that every day. hey man the police are outside surrounding the car at the last three weeks they don't look for it for like three weeks right something somehow they identified

all the cars that were out at some point properly yeah they started tracing what was going on and I think what it was is all my rentals were three weeks and above so they like let's start with all the three week rentals yeah let's start with the three weeks and they just start tracing the cars

hey did you rent this no and then they're like, hey, go get our shit. So then they start going out and picking up their car. It was a troubling time. It was about a month and a half period wind down. Right. And that's why I rented, I gave my friend that ID. I said, look, we're not going to do it the old way.

We're going to do it like this. Just take this ID and rent a car as the guy I've been using. Really, which kind of threw him off. Because he's like, man, there's two people. There's a black and a white guy doing that. You know, what the hell's going on? so right what about what was the um shoot what's the other one guy of we talked about of course you got me here all prepared and ready to go I mean I was just well I was thinking about

we were talking about didn't we have talked about creating fake identities at one point like well I think that was more your your spiel I wasn't ended up creating them you know right to borrow them from uh close by a when I was locked up. What was the one scam you told me about, which was, was it getting corporate checks? You were getting corporate checks. And then you would go open, open a bank account in the name of the corporation. Yes.

You just changed a little bit. Yes. And then you deposit the check. Yes. How did that work? I love this one. All right. I think I could tell you the whole story.

But I think you just did. I mean, yeah, but you know, you got to tell you got to explain the whole, like, you know, there are these industrial parks. right right and you would go there and you would that like they would the the mail would get dumped into like a big bin one of the big lock boxes that's outside right so it's just like when you drop your mail off to the post office and you stick it in there they would have these big boxes that that somebody like let's say Coca-Cola would would go to pay their vendors and they would go and they would dump all these checks this is back when it wasn't electronic they were just they dump a bunch of checks into this into this box holder and then the postman would come yeah yeah okay so you would get so they would dump all the

they dump all the mail into the main bin and then the postman would come and unload it for the whole park right right so how were you guys getting that so you guys were going and doing what we were taking the checks out of the bin or we had mailbox

like retrievers where we could get down into the box or like we would jimmy the box open and steal the mail out of it so anyway we had access to various companies checks um and one of them we had one of the large supermarkets um that wrote a check to um we had an inside person that worked in in um kellogs that was going to get us a like a two million dollar check that i was planning on getting and i i was priming that and everything getting that ready to go but basically what i would do with just like if i got a check and for like let's

say Matt Cox Industries payable to Zach Silverware, then I would just start a company with Zach's fine silverware close to the name. Right. And then just put the check in the account with that name and deposited because what will happen is when the check clears, you're expecting to check the clear. Right. And then the real company, they just haven't gotten it yet. Right.

So they're expecting to get it any day now. Right. They just haven't gotten it yet. And the larger, larger companies can wait or they just carry the balance over from 30 to 60 days and say, hey. And so, like, if I deal with you monthly, what will happen is you'll just have a running balance. Right. So if every month you're paying me like $400 to $1,000, then you're just going to have a balance. So every month you're going to pay, you're going to have.

And so later, I'm like, what the hell's going on, man? Are you going to ever catch that up? I mean, what's on the missing check that you, that you have? What was the biggest one you ever did? 60,000. 60,000. So what were the averages, 5,000, 2,000, 500? No, then you had one.

5,000 would be the, if it was 5 grand, if it was less than 5, I wouldn't touch it. So we had one for 60, 60 bands. We had one income tax that was 100,000, but we didn't cash that one. But, yeah, it's just, like roofing companies, we had a roofing company, and they got paid tremendous amount of money. So it depends on what each company do. Most, that's kind of hard today because everything's ACH draft transfer. but back in the day it was all checked

it was beautiful I mean that's that's not one of the most sexy no type you know that's just and again that's a scam that's just using manipulating the system to get around it you know yeah I mean obviously you and I had vastly different you know different

mine aren't is as sexy and elaborate and long strong or on the run mine were not on the run you know you know I was buying houses and in cars I was doing mind like a job, you know. Mine was a job.

It was a job. Yeah, it's some, when I, when I stopped owning the mortgage company, when I, when I, when I ended up on probation like that, it became my full-time job. Like I was making fake people. I was creating, I was borrowing money from the bank. I was, you know, that, like, that's all I did. I mean, I did, I flipped houses. I was always, I'm always doing something.

I was doing five or six things. Right, right. But I don't, I don't think you, I think you worked it to. get a certain amount and then you take that certain amount and then you did what you wanted to do with it I don't think that was your like this was my day-to-day income it's like okay you guys need and I had people you guys need to do this because I need to bring this in because I got houses a whole enterprise you were running multiple people yes most most of the time it was just me and maybe I have this guy to help do this maybe he knew maybe he didn't maybe this guy knew and that you know one or two but

it was never like eight different people or ten different people all I'm juggling all these different people it was never really like and they were all committing crimes most of the people I was dealing with were just doing what they normally do they weren't this guy's an appraiser exactly appraised the house this guy's a realtor give me a contract so right most of the time they're doing they know something's up you know like yeah but they're doing what they normally do your whole thing is you know you're actually committing everybody knows it's a scam everybody's doing running different scams different I love the one when you told me that you were you had you had the guy that was cashing checks for you and you were like he told me that the guy by the all he had to do was like go in and cash a check for I forget the amount but it's like go in and cash this check for $5,000 we have eight checks yes you're going to talk about the guy that and he was at Coleman with me by the way oh really yes well he was going to make by the end of them by the end of the day he would make like he was going to make like like 20 $20,000 or something.

Right. And instead, the very- He cashed one check. One check, got five grand. Five grand, right? And I'm like, okay, you're going to bring me the money. I'm on the phone with him. So I'm going, hey, did you drop that money in that account?

He's like, no, I haven't had a chance to yet. I'm like, but you cashed the check two hours ago. Yeah, I'm going to do it. So, you know, I'm like, all right, just drop it in there, brun, and I'm going to shoot you the next check. Right. You know, and so, like, I go, I've got six. of them, so you're going to make about 25 grand.

Okay, I got you. So call him back. I'm like, so I'm asking him, after the third time I called him, I said, hey, look, I said, you're not going to drop that check, are you? Silence. Nah. He goes, man, I, five grand, man. Five grand, you're going to make $25,000 by the end of the day.

Yeah. He's like, man, I ain't have $5,000 in forever. That's what he's telling me. With that out of issue, you'll never have $25,000. never exactly i told him i said enjoy it i mean what about you told me one time one guy went in the bank cashed a check walked out and was supposed to come to the car yes it took off right so walked out looked over and saw saw well you know i just took off i i dealt i used to deal like 25 grand you come back to the car we'll go to the next bank i work i worked with drug dealers so they

would give me addicts so addicts are hard to maintain you know like And so everyone that worked with me that, like upper echelon, you know, like, you know, my wife and the guy to help me makes the photo ID, all them were like, why do you deal with addicts? Because I'm like, if they could just hold it together long enough, we'll make a fortune. So how long would you deal with somebody when they're worth a hundred grand to you? They're like, I think I deal with a lot. But, you know, addicts are just kind of like, you know, I can't hold it together. I'm sorry. Sometimes they apologize

That's what the guy told me I'm sorry man I can't wait around for the 20 grand I gotta use this five right now It makes sense I mean you can't go get your high You can't hold your shit together You can't

I'm sorry man I'm just I know you're never gonna fuck with me again But I gotta go get high five grand You know like hey Go get it Go get it Because he's

My favorite scam is the one-me-s scam. It's great. So I have to give a... You have to give a little bit of a... Explain this, how it kind of like it went from, you know, you remember the guy, you met the guy at like Shoney. It was like that you knew somebody who knew somebody at Bank of America. Like start at that point.

How you were trying to do one scam and this guy put you on to the bigger one and then how you were getting the people, the whole thing. Well, all right. So... Like I can tell you're, when it's just, when we're just talking, you tell me all the details you're like trying to jump through it right now it doesn't matter if we talk for fucking four hours the longer the better okay well i don't this is my first time yeah you know i got to keep saying that this is my first time so all right so um the the explanation is that we

we were dealing with with well i want to call homosexuals you know if i may say and and we were buying credit card numbers from them and so because one guy worked at at the bank and in the fraud department. So what was bizarre about it is when we bought the, when we bought the numbers, like they'd call up, and I think we're paying 50 bucks a number, and they'd have like 20 numbers. So we'd meet them with three grand or six grand, and we always paid. So they always, hi, they were very nice to my wife. They loved her.

So anyway, every time he'd meet us, he would say, park over here, and I'm going to get out of my car and walk all the way over, but there's somebody in my car. And I'm like, why can't we just park next to you? Oh, because my boyfriend in the car works in the fraud department. He doesn't want to be seen. Like he doesn't want them to get pictures of him meeting us. So I said, what? He goes, yeah, my boyfriend works at the fraud department.

Right. So the guy you were buying it from, he didn't. He worked at the bank, but not in the fraud department. Right. Or I think he worked at a hotel. So they were both bouncing off. He works at the fraud department. So I asked him, I said, listen, tell your boyfriend.

I'll pay him five grand if he would just give me one hour. to just ask him about the bank. He's like, really? I go, yeah, I'll give him $5,000 if I can sit down and talk to him for an hour. So I made him the offer, and he accepted it. So we sat down one day, and I'm asking him all the fantasy, because I had fantasy, and I had them written down,

like about 25, like front and back. And I'm going through all of my, okay, I'm thinking this, and if I'm writing this check, what's the policy on this? And he's like, no, that wouldn't work because of da-da-da-da. He's answering them all honestly. So we met about an hour. So as he kills most of what I have down, I'm writing notes and everything.

So my last question is, is there something that you notice that's a loophole that I didn't ask you? Right? And he said, well, he goes, one day I had a guy who called me up and went to the ATM machine and got $1,000. out of the ATM machine with the PIN number, right?

And he was telling me that it wasn't him that got the money. But I'm like, but that's an ATM machine that gets used like every Thursday right next to your house, religiously. By you. Right. But you're telling me. But this time it wasn't me. Yeah.

Right. And the guy got angry and said, listen, if I tell you I didn't take the money out, I didn't take the effing money out. So he said, I gave him the money back. And I didn't catch it, but I said, what do you mean? He's like, that's bank policy. He says the first time anything is taken from you, our policy is we give you the money back, regardless of whether we believe you or not, whether it can be proven that it might have been you. He said the first time we absolutely do it.

The second time, if we're suspicious, we'll still give you the money back, but we'll close your account. Right. But that's actually also, that's the EFT policy. from the federal government. I didn't learn that until I was in prison. Right. But they have to give it back to you. Right.

That concept of it being the law that came to me when I was in prison. Right. So when he told me that, I'm like, uh huh. So when we were leaving, like it's processing in my head and I turned to my wife and I'm like, do you hear what he said? You know, and she's like, no, I was drinking cocktail. So I said, he basically said that if we pull money out, money out of our Bank of America account and you tell the bank that wasn't you right they would

give the money back because you think it'll work I'm like let's give it a shot so we left this was a it was a Tuesday morning or lunchtime I forgot when it was it was the day that he was off and we left there went to the post office and bought $4,000 worth of cashier checks where you could use Your name the card. Money orders. Yeah, money orders. And they gave us the four grand worth of money orders, right? And so my wife, where she opened the account, she was very close because she talked to the lady. We left the post office, went straight to her bank. And she went in and she talked to the lady to open her account and said, hey, you know, somebody got $4,000 transaction. So the lady looked, oh, I'm sorry. She could cut up her card, processed her account, said, look, I ordered you another card. It'll be here tomorrow overnight. You'll get it tomorrow, right? And I went ahead and put the $4,000 back in your account. So you're good to go. Nice.

So I look at her. She got the $4,000 of money orders. Right. And she got the $4,000 back. So she just made $4,000. Right. And so, you know what my wife did? She signed the $4,000 money orders and deposited an account with the way.

In the same account? I'm like, that's either ballsy or stupid. It's, it's ballsy. You're like, hey, stroke them. You're talking to, oh. so what happened so we went outside it expands from there right so we went outside high five went straight to the house had sex and like it's on so it was on so my mind's running so that's what we do so i said okay so let's open up accounts and we'll pull the money and say it wasn't me now

city when it's feasible that it wasn't you and sometimes the bank would give a little blowback right i found people buckled so you know because i because it wasn't never me doing all that so i would hire dope addicts reliable dope addicts and when they got a little flack they they they folded like superman on laundry day so so so when they got a little bit of money no they got a little I don't know what was oh oh okay okay oh when they got when when the bank would be like hold up them like you know like hey you know somebody just doesn't make sense something's wrong here like let me go talk to somebody go oh no no no no never mind never mind i think my wife did it i'm out of here don't worry about you know what I'm saying so when they got a little hassle they'd been they would

give in you know or they leave or I'm like what happened oh they know they know it was it Like, like, that was the big thing with me. Like, I'm ready to argue. Like, as soon as they, whenever the bank would ever start to give me a hard time, I would immediately say, all right, I want to talk to the manager. All right. No, absolutely not. Yeah.

No, that's, look, I don't know what you're thinking, but, I mean, because I, but that's because I knew what they knew. Right. And like, you know, you're talking to some drug addict who's already on edge and doesn't really understand how the system works. So as soon as they say something, he's, Right out of the back. They would like, that doesn't make sense or how did the person get your PIN number?

He asked me how the guy got my PIN number. I'm like, you don't know. Right. We've had this conversation. Thank you. Yeah. So, and so in my mind, I said, okay, so this is happening like it went from, well, actually, never was 100%. Because it probably went from about 80 to 70% down to about 20%.

They just started giving flak. So in my mind, I said, I have to overcome the flag. Right. Like, I have to make it where there's no question. That this could not have been. It could not have been you. Right. So I started thinking to myself, what if, because I had someone that was showing me that he could duplicate the card.

Right, right. Like, by putting the information on the back of a, on a card I have. MSR 205 machine where they just swipe it and they do another card and they put the information back on the magnetic script. So now you got two cards. Right. So I said, well, because this is all what's coming to be. So when that happened, I said, well, I wonder what would happen if I sent someone to, like, Columbus, Ohio. Right.

And they opened up a couple of bank accounts, and we deposit five grand in three accounts, one person. And then I had my guy in Atlanta going to the post office and buy five grand worth of money orders, right? And then my friend go into the bank and say, 10 minutes later. 10 minutes later, and say, what the? In, what did you say? In, what did you say? In Columbus, Ohio. In Columbus.

And say, hey, man, I had five grand in here. They're like, well, you just made a large withdrawal in Atlanta, Georgia. Five minutes ago? When was that? 10 minutes ago? They say, oh, that was 10 minutes ago in Atlanta. Well, I've been here. What are you talking about?

You think I'm Superman? Right. No, I don't. I'm actually going to cut off your card and they give them the money back. So I went from having flackets. 70% of people buckling. To them like,

oh my God, you've been frauded. Mike, let me hurry up and give you your money. You poor thing. Yes. Yes.

So that's how I was rolling that for, while that actually never crumbled on me. It just, I think my arrest was the interruption, but.

So how, okay, so here's the part that I like. How did you get the people that at some point you couldn't get enough

drug addicts to be doing this and you were doing this on a scale I know you were doing this on a scale where you're sending three guys to Ohio three guys to Illinois three guys to you know Arizona to tech like all over the country two or three guys here

where are you coming up but this is the part I love where are you coming up with like what was your thought process and how did you eventually figure out where to come up with guys that are willing to do this Well, the guys willing to do it.

You're talking about the people. So what I was, basically what you're saying is my supply chain. Yeah. All right. So my supply of people to go in came from drug dealers. Right. You know. You're jiggling.

You're leaning. I'm all on the chair, though. No, you're not. You are not. You're like you're leaving. No, no. My hand. Your microphone's going like this.

It's my hand on the table. Okay. Well, you go. All right. All right. Okay. So. Breathe.

okay my supply of people came from drug dealers right okay my supply of individuals to open up accounts in their name yes came from people incarcerated so I had a chain of identities that I was buying out of people locked up right so I would actually have people who were locked up and I would pay like a thousand dollars if the people locked up would sell me there I identity. Right. And so I use them to give. So what I would do is if you've never had a bank account, I would take your identity, go get an ID in your name, go get a social security card, travel, send someone to another state and city to open up three bank accounts in your name. Of those three bank accounts, we would deposit money and then I would steal the money and you'd say,

hey, it wasn't me. Right. Once they got the debit cards issue. Right. Once they got the debit card. And so we used to do P.O. boxes. We started just doing apartments. So we'd send three people up there. They'd rent an apartment and they'd live, like I'd pay the rent for like two or three months. And once we got all the debit cards, so each person would do three. So you got three times three is nine times five grand. Right. So $45,000. Each one is worth $45,000. Yeah. Yeah, but what about the arraignments? What do you mean? you would go to that's what I meant

not the drug I meant when you would go and sit in the court oh oh you're talking okay yes at some point like I mean I understand you it wasn't all the people you were getting

but it was well you know that that was all right so I'm not going to say that was I did that a couple of times because I'm like these drug dealers are ridiculous right not drug dealers these drug users are ridiculous they were they were ridiculous I have

story after story about dealing with them like because you'd fly them out of town and put them in a hotel and then you know and I had companies set up where I would pay for their hotel like a corporation and I had a gentleman call me up and say are you human resources and I'd be like yes sir he goes listen man I don't he goes I don't know how to tell you this but I think your employees are on drugs and I'm like what he goes crazy he goes um the girl that was here was walking around the hotel, Toplis. Like, we had to have security because I think they're on drugs.

So, I mean, the stories go on and on. They sold the rental car. Oh, you're talking about the three girls that I picked up. I just remember one time. One time they called and they said, like the, they called you and they said that they sold the rental car.

The guys got the rental car. I don't know what to do. They're screaming and hollering. And I hung up the phone. And it was a prepaid phone. And I just had it disconnected. I'm like, okay, it was horrible. The stories were horrible.

Dealing with drug addicts was horrible. So sometimes I got impatient with that. So in my mind, I like, how do I recruit criminals, right, that are willing to commit crimes that may or may not be on drugs? Like, where would I see those criminals? Right. How do I come across? Right.

So I'm like, maybe in jail. So what I was thinking, like I'm thinking back on my first appearance, you know, first appearance is the they give the resume of your priors so i he's been arrested for this he's like because you're not trying to get bond and so they're like he's been incarcerated twice for you know uh for for for fraudulent checks uh he's been arrested twice for or three times for credit card fraud he's been so that you're you know you're you're sitting there you're you're sitting there thinking i went with the exactly so i'm thinking to myself I'm going to go down to a first appearance.

I'm trying to remember what, somehow I was at a first appearance. I don't know if it was an arrest of mine or if I had to go to somebody's first appearance because I was going to hire them an attorney. I don't remember what the situation was, but I was at a first appearance and I'm listening to what's going on.

And I'm like, huh, what was that guy's name again? I remember thinking that to myself, like, what was that guy's name again? So I decided, like, I'm going to go and sit at the first appearance, which has nobody but lawyers, which had nobody but lawyers. So I went in there with pen and paper, and I'd write down female or male, right, and I'd get their chart. Ooh, perfect. Oh, perfect. No drugs, you know, checks, you know.

And so I would write down names. And generally, I got about two or three per first appearance. And I waited. I gave them like two or three weeks to see if they bond. bonded out. If they bonded out or got OR, I didn't pursue them. Typically, they're not going to. If they have a list of charges, it's difficult to get bond. Well, and somebody, they want a lot of money. Somebody that gets bonded out really doesn't believe, like if everything by me was trial and error. So if you got bonded out, I still

tried to approach some people and they were not very receptive. You know what I'm saying? or like, because the way I talk, a lot of times when I approach people because of the way I talk, they think I'm the police. Right. That's happened to me numerous. I've had people run for me.

Or I've had a guy that a friend referred said, stop the car. Fuck you and got out of the car, right? So we're looking and I'm looking at the friend like, what happened? So she goes and talk to him, she goes, oh, he thinks you're the police. I'm like, what?

Anyway, me, moi? But, so, dealing with those people like people who got bonded out was difficult so if they were still in prison I would send them $100 or I sent them a letter in $100 and I'd say hey I'll bond you out

right you know like I would act like I was a friend of theirs because I was able to pull their information and I would say hey I want you to work with this such and such hey I'm a friend of John yeah John I got the money to bond you out

but if I bond you out, I want to know if you could do this for me. Right. I remember you said everybody knows it John. And he'd be like, well, what do you need me to do? Well, like, if you can do this, this, and this, I'll pay you this much.

They go, are you serious? And I would always have them go somewhere close by where we could drive them and do it. It worked out for like three people out of about 15. They became pretty decent workers, but most of those people were on drugs.

It was a clever idea, but it was just another link to people on drugs. It's all it was. But it was a clever idea, but it works pretty good. I know you like that idea. I love that going and sitting in the sitting there and just listening to, okay, this guy would probably do it. You're writing down the information. Then you mail them a letter with the thing. I remember you said one time you guys stuck like your wife went into where their property was.

She went into the property unit or was it once or how many times and actually left them like a cell phone with a phone number and so you can go in like if you get arrested that's colby so if colby gets arrested we can go i can then turn around the next day and i can go to go to the property section of the sheriff's department and leave him a cell phone colby is yeah colby's in you know he's in jail but he's going to get released in a couple days i want to leave his cell phone in his property and they'll go sure and they'll take the cell phone and stick it in his property so three days later when you get bond and you get out and you get your property there's a cell phone in there so it could be a cell phone. You can leave whatever. Here's all. I need to give him some money or here's his credit

cards. He forgot his wallet. So you can leave whatever you want in there. So when these guys get their stuff, they're like, okay, here's his cell phone. I'm supposed to call this number. Yep. And they call the number and he'd say, let me at the hotel, go down the street, walk across the street and whatever. I got you a rental car and da-da-da-da-da. I mean, of course, you know how I got the rental car. I mean, it was all bleeding in one. It all the circles linked into one. Like, that's what bothers me. Like, it's like the guy,

was it Chris? Yeah, but that's the problem. Chris, is the Chris, is it, Aronot or Aronog or something? I forget the guy who was running the credit card ring in, in L.A. To me, it's like there's, like, he kept paying for,

he's running this huge credit card ring where they're manufacturing credit cards. They're hacking into systems, manufacturer, or counterfeiting credit cards, putting the information on the coming up with fake IDs they've got girls that go in and buy tons of merchandise and then they're selling it and he gets busted because he ends up renting a hotel room using a fake credit card and it gets denied it's like wait

you guys are upstairs on the top floor of the of the hotel in a room with all of your equipment and you're using a stolen credit card what if it doesn't go through what if they call what if the cops show up what like why don't you spend your own money Like, this is a minor, it's a minor charge for the hundreds of thousands you're making. You're trying to save money on a $100 room. What are you doing? And that's what happened.

His whole ring gets busted because he gave him a credit card. It didn't go through. Gave another credit card. It didn't go through. Gave another credit card. It went through, but now the clerk is suspicious. So then they end up calling the credit card manufacturer, the merchant, saying, something's not right.

This guy used, like, multiple credit cards. and this one with their who's this credit card and I'm under and they gave it to them and it's not the same guy they call the sheriff sheriff comes up

bangs on the door opens the door they're sitting there making credit cards hey what's up they're cranking out credit cards the sheriff's like

what are you doing he walks in the whole thing this thing just stopped wow that was in the fast 30 minutes yeah it goes flies by bro

like at some point I'll get some point like if this takes off then we'll have to get we'll get the cameras that just go for hours like you just turn them on

they just go and go like you there's a way with enough money you know with a couple two three thousand dollars you can get this up so that you're it's just seamless

so yeah so he so yeah so the sheriff walks in and he sees him just cranking out the credit cards it's over it's like all because you it's the same thing

with like the car things like you're using all these like to me all of those every you're juggling a lot if anything goes wrong the whole thing comes down like to me you know like to me that's like i would be paying for like to me to get the hundred thousand i'll i'll spend five grand of my own money to get the hundred thousand you know well well i i i'm not trying to down you i'm not trying to fault you man i'm not listening i'm not taking it as fault it's it's because I was willing to do that, but the people I was dealing with wouldn't allow me to do that. Oh, yeah, yeah.

You know, like, so stealing the rental cars or wrecking the rental cars, you know, it just, it came. Getting the cops called. Yeah, it's at a hotel, you know, and like, wow, you guys are strung out on drugs. And it was horrendous. The people I was dealing with were horrible. They were horrible. So it just, you know, what's weird is, like, part to me in my life now, I'm like, very happy I don't have to deal with that type of because that used to drive me nuts like that

it felt like I had to deal with those people didn't make any money they were they were horrible they were horrible yeah and so they would like I told you getting getting the police called it at the hotel or they would turn in a rental car you know in a rental car company called me like hey it's uh the front end of this car is smashed so I'd call the guy and like hey they the rental car company said the front end of the car is smashed. Like, what? That's crazy. I don't, I didn't see any scratches on it when I turned it in.

Really? I'm like, really? Yeah, okay. You're fired. When you get back into town, don't even bother calling me. I mean, I'm lucky. Like, everybody I was dealing with were like, you know, professional people. They would still get scared.

Like, you know. Well, scared is one thing. You're right. High is different. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I dealt with basically most, you know, everybody I was dealing with were, like, professional people, and they were basically doing what they do. And the few times I dealt with people were, but I was basically, I was, for the most part, I was the one who was taking, who was, well, no. I was just I almost never went in.

Like, it wasn't until when I went on the run that I really started going into the bank and going and doing everything myself. like you know before that it was no you go in no no no no here's the card here's this you go in and get this you go in yeah yeah so yeah so that's true but then when i was on the run it was just i'm there i'm already wanted well i i i the the problem and that's a issue because i would do it or my wife and i would do it and ours was always flawless so i'm like oh this is well you know because it's listen they can feel that confidence. They can feel when you're talking about, think about what this guy does, he gets

into a car, he's already Jones in for drugs, and you say, take this, your name is Tom Jones. Walk in, tell him, I'm Tom Jones, give him this and tell him you want cash. You know, that's really all they know. So it would take an hour or two to really explain the scam for that person to feel confident enough to walk in,

and when they say, well, I don't understand, Mr. Jones, what was the last time you used your credit card? right then they go huh and they run where if it's you you're like I have no idea I mean you know what I'm saying you're ready to start arguing I got ID I got this give me I don't know my wife has my card I don't like I'm ready to start give me jump where's the manager jump over the counter let's give me my money right know what's happening here I want my you know if I give me my stuff and your manager's name I'm closing the account I want to close the account I don't care I mean I look there's just like now

they're upset. They're up there. I'm ready to argue. But yeah, if you're some drug addict, you're scared of death. And that was the issue. So dealing with them was,

like what I'm saying, that was the problem. So all of my plans were always around like what I know it could be done. And then watching someone else, you know, like I'm like, this is flawless and watching someone insert flaws. What I thought was flawless.

Like, oh, oh my God. So it was, it was, it was troubling. So I just started. saying, well, it's not worth, because when they wreck a rental car, that's $20,000. So you send someone on a trip and you make $60,000 and you're paying them.

And now you've got to pay $30, $40 for a rental car. I'm like, had that been in such and such his name, then it wouldn't matter. I wouldn't be paying that. So it was just too much risk. It was too much risk. Right. Information. You're getting their information.

and then he was going and was calling and like, I forget who it was Capital One and whoever was offering, like AT&T, whatever. So they were offering a card that once you got accepted, they would overnight it to you. And in their mind, they were thinking, you know, AT&T

or whoever, let's say it was Capital One, they're thinking, well, we're going to overnight it to their house. So one, they're calling us and applying for the credit card from their home phone. we know the home phone is connected like we can look in our system that number is goes to this house so then we're overnighting the then they gave us the same address so we know it's them we got their pull it they got like not 800 credit for it so we're gonna overnight this 20 or 30,000 dollar credit card to them right then when they activate it they have to activate it from the home phone also well remember the spoof card yes or spoof app so this guy's using the spoof app and the way they figured it was you have to still we're overnighting it, we're sending it to them, and they have to sign for it.

So this guy's pulling up in his Lincoln Town, or sorry, in his Cadillac, and he knew they're overnighting it is coming today. So he would pull up and wait, sit in his car for an hour or two. And he said, when I see that, he'd see the Fed's thing, he'd hop out of the car and start walking up the front driveway, and FedEx guy would, you know, because the Fed guy pulled up, and he starts filling out some paperwork. Then he gets with the package, and then, so then when he walks up, you're standing at the front door, or you're walking out, or you're walking up getting the garbage cans or whatever, and he would see you and he'd go, you know, you know nobody's home, or even if there's a car in the driveway, nobody's looked out the window.

So he would be like, you'd go, hey, Mr. Johnson, yeah, what's up? Yeah, John, I'm John Johnson. Oh, can you sign for this? Sure. They don't ask for it. He signs for it. They give him the fucking card. He takes the card, he sits back in his car, and then he calls with the fucking screw fat and activates the card. He then turns around and goes to gas, make sure it's working, it's going through the great, then he turns around, boom, Rolex, you know, just boom, boom, boom, boom, just starts running it up. He was making a fucking killing.

This guy, Bojack, was doing the same thing multiple times, but this guy did it to such an extent that at one point, he actually got a card for like 50 grand in the name, and it was U.S. Attorney. Oh, I think he told me about that. Yeah, that. It was like, they didn't give a shit. He said, went off for a year or so. He said, did it for a year or so.

He was just, listen, this guy was ridiculous. He had his teeth were all gold and diamonds. The black guy? No. No, a white guy with gold and diamond. Yes, of course, it was a black guy. So. I can tell you some white guys.

I've met some white guys, a couple. Very few, though. No, there's no very few. the wiggas, but go ahead. So, but yeah, he was, he, they, they went after him with vengeance. I mean, they tracked him down. They, they,

he, it was two weeks later, two, three weeks later, a month later, they had him, smash him. Oh, that means he went to the U.S. attorney's house. Yeah, that's exactly. He didn't realize it was a U.S. attorney. Like, it was just an attorney. He's like, I knew he was an attorney.

He didn't say U.S. attorney. just an attorney it's like so what are you all I'm an attorney because the information I was given was just that he's a lawyer what was he buying the information online on the dark web I think he had somebody at a bank or something like it's amazing how many people the bank they the banks have started limiting the information that their employees have access to yeah because it was it used to be who are we recording well fuck you didn't mention it so we're talking oh okay well i'm way back here you know what i'm saying like i wasn't thinking i just told the whole story now i was ready to tell the whole story again

to tell the whole story again why i can he just he would have reported the whole time i didn't realize you were recording did you get it from the beginning like you guys I don't know what was that wasn't you guys part of talking I just got a

camera I saw that for the last five minutes yeah that's fun whatever so yeah

so that was a guy I knew I had met in prison and he wanted I want to say his name was

last name was like Jefferson or Jeffries yeah he's funny he left prison

he left and like a year and a half two years later he came back it was just a violation i think well what had happened was he got pulled over he got pulled over and when they searched the car first it wasn't his car but when they searched the car there were credit cards in random people's names when of course when they check out the credit cards they're stolen but his whole thing was not my car and so they couldn't really charge them like they charged them if they had to drop the charges because you didn't catch the person

driving the car and he says it's not him and the other guy says it's not him so what are you going to do? But of course they were but yeah but you were caught you were pulled over by the police you were arrested, you were charged they dropped the charges

but you violated because you were and you had interaction with the police and we don't believe that you didn't know and so they violated and became like eight months or a year like the remainder of his probation they had him he did it like eight months in prison or something like that and uh i remember the whole time he's like they can't do that they can only give me this much but the fact is it's eight months by that

point it's too late like there's nothing you can't fix anything in eight months no not with him so he did the remainder of the eight six months or nine months whatever it was in prison and he got out and that was it but yeah he he came back uh he was uh but he was he was sharp like he really had it down He had a bunch of different scans like that. Well, you have to do something like that, you've got to have multiple hustles. You're not, you're generally not going to just do one thing. Sorry.

You or me. That's me. Bible verse. All right, anyway, Dominus Olman. But anyway, generally you start, your circle starts intertwining with other people, meaning like the information that he would need to pull that off means that he's dealing with either someone selling that information or getting like credit

card numbers or giving him bank accounts. So chances are he was doing multiple things with that type of information. So he, I wonder like, I don't know if he had somebody who could make fake IDs. I remember at one point he was talking about, I was talking about, because I remember at one point I told him about about Boziac. Right. But this guy wrote a story. He liked Bozzi. I love his story. So, but because he did all kinds of different stuff, you know. Well, it sounds like he was doing just one thing. Who?

Both yeah. He was, he was a scammer. He was a skimmer is what they call it. No, no. He was counterfeiting credit card. Well, ultimately he was manufactured. He was manufacturing. He was making it.

But, I mean, he started carting. And then it went, then he stopped doing that because he was like, his brother gets arrested twice. He gets grabbed one time. So he's like, I'm going to get caught eventually. So then he just starts manufacturing counterfeit credit cards and selling them online. He's like, because then all I have to do is take the order. I make the card, and then I just drop them in a drop box. Like there's no chance I'm getting caught.

Right. So, but what I was going to say is, like, he was buying his information on, like, the forums. So people would either provide him the dump, the dump of information. They either provide it to him or he would, when he was doing his own stuff, he would buy it. So you have these big breaches where somebody, you know, where some Russian hackers come in and they crack, you know, city bank and they get 40,000, you know, people's information. You can buy that information. So he would buy it and then put it on the cards and he would use the cards. And he, of course, he could make, like, he could make the actual driver's licenses or IDs or something.

I remember where we were talking one time. And, you know, like to me, where I would, how I was getting my information was, I was just running an ad. I just run an ad in the newspaper. I thought for $300 or $500, I'd run an ad in the flyer magazine or whatever and say, good, credit, bad, credit, no problem. You know, home loans available, you know, call now free applications and put the phone number. People call up and they give me everything because they think they're applying for a loan. Right. I take their information, you know, I take their information, and then I order their, I order their social.

security card, their first certificate, their high school transcripts, or I registered a vote in their name, and then I, you know, go get a driver license or an ID from the DMD. Like, everything was real. You know, everything he's got is fake. Like, to me, that's terrified. Yeah. Right. But, you know, you're walking in and, like, to me, I'm ready to argue with you because I know.

That's all right. Right. That's a real source. That's a real driver's license. The credit cards that I'm now using are credit cards. that I actually applied for had sent to me. Like the real person doesn't know anything about this and there's no way for them to stumble across it, especially when I started doing it with homeless people.

Right. Start surveying homeless people. Like now there's no way that the guy that was living under the bridge in Nevada knows that I'm using, have an ID in his name in North Carolina. Right. And that I'm buying, I've got a $10,000 credit card or a $60,000 car. In his name, he has no clue. So if you're sitting there, something's not right, what?

Like, I'm ready to argue with you. Because there's no way you track that guy down. Right. Nobody's complaining. Oh, we've got to call. We're going to call Bank of America. Call him. Let's run it, run it, right.

Let's do it. So, but, yeah, but like stuff that he was doing, I'd be terrified. The stuff that you were doing, I'd be terrified. There's a real person out there. You know, a lot of stuff, ours was similar. Right. Well, I mean, sometimes you're taking someone's, real you're taking a real person with good credit sometimes right yeah that was they make a figure

it out that was earlier and that was that was the bane of most of my arrest yeah it is because like one point I'm in jail and I'm walking and I'm saying okay this isn't working right taking people's information and using it is shutting down on me at the most inopportune times and ending me up in jail right you know and and I walk around I said okay so I need to better stand right I need to stop using people who are gonna call on me right you know and that's when I realized the people who aren't gonna call the police on me have have had the police called on them so they're they're here with me now so you know so that that's what changed me up because that was that

was a problem and no matter how well it was going it would end it never none of them ever ended when I was done. They all ended when I needed them the most. Right. Like all of those cards. So what about, so what were the scams, what were any scams you came across in prison that people were doing?

Okay, so there's some I was impressed with and some I wasn't so impressed with. Like, I met someone that was doing skimming and I was kind of impressed with that, understanding it. But then I wasn't impressed because he would just make the car. buy gift cards and then sell the gift cards and then get the money and spend on what he wanted to spend it on so you know i just thought that was like redundant right so it was but i was impressed because i didn't know how to make the card you know so knowing that you were running that even

though i did that a little bit copying the debit cards and the pen i never did it to the level where i was like he was doing manufacturing cards but um have you heard about the people who convince elderly people or I want to just say white people because I finally would have to be covered with the green dot to go and buy green dot

reloads have you have you heard about that no but I met a guy that was doing a a scam that was and basically the people he was hitting were like elderly people yes and I was going

and it was a it was a it was a time share, like a time share scam that he was hitting. You're not talking about Barrington, are you? No. No, this was, no. But anyway, you were saying, what was you doing? Well, he, he would convince people that,

that they had a warrant out for not paying taxes or that, and he'd say, listen, you've got a warrant. We're coming to pick you up. You need to go down to your nearest. Walgreens and get a $700 reload on green dot right and he's telling me that I'm like no way no way and when I read his paperwork people did that and I said so you would just trust them to go do that and he's like trust them I never got off the phone with him and you'd hear him Sally I can't do that

now I got to go down to Walgreens and get a five seven hundred dollar give me my cart yeah and they stay on the phone just let me stay on the phone just let me stay on the phone phone with you, go up to the clerk and pay, you know, I wouldn't have believed that until I got out and I went to buy a Walgreens reload and they ask you, is anyone telling you to do that, yeah, that scam was so huge that even Green Dot had to intervene to stop it. People buying reloads for prepaid cards being scam. It's like, I go, that is unbelievable. I'm like you know I mean you don't want to say like that like how could you be that stupid because they're elderly people and you're you're older and so if you're older then you're more susceptible to just be trusting but wow I meant that let me to call you up and say hey we were talking about someone what was it we were talking about like there's no way I would have fell for that you know what was it was it was it was I got hired by a vice TV vice TV was doing a

they are doing commercials for T-Mobile, and they were doing phone scans, so they had to interview me, they were interviewing me as an expert on scams. And the scam, like they were saying, like, what are these people doing wrong? The problem is all the scams that they gave me to review, the people, like, they were typically, like, foreigners.

Like, like, the people that were falling for it, it was like, okay, well, no American would fall for that, unless they were elder. I'm saying, you've got to know the scam. Okay. The scam was, like, your mother's been in an accident, and, you know, your mom's been in an accident, she's in the hospital, she needs a liver transplant, and the surgery is, you know, $20,000, and if we don't get the $20,000 now, your mom's going to die. And so the person just happened to have access to a credit card, like a $20,000 credit card. And so he sends them the money.

Okay, but he also, like, had only been in the country a few months and didn't quite understand what was. happening and I guess whatever country he's from they just let you die you know like like an American be like oh you're going to fix my mom you're not going to let my mom die like if I so you tell me poor people have to die well guess what if you're in Peru poor people just die yes like they don't let you into the hospital they're like the hospital will say look you got to give us 20 grand up front for you to be admitted otherwise just you know tough it out like I have a friend whose father had COVID and they came and they were like look we need 20 grand like 20 whatever the equivalent of 20,000 to admit him and they were like well we don't

have 20 grand and and they were like well next he'll probably be fine he went home and died it's just you know that's proof but it's not going to do that here they're going to be like no come on in you know we'll get you later we'll put on your credit we're going to figure it out so you know that's why it's $120 for an aspirin in in a hospital right but so so in that scam they had different scams and that was one scam where they kept hitting these people they'd hit somebody for five grand for 10 for 20 and this guy paid 20 grand well but he wasn't like he was I think either he was not in the he was new to the US or he was either new to the US or he was like a young kid didn't quite understand like he was like 18 or 19 and he didn't understand that that's like that seemed like something

they could do to him um the other one scam was there was there were various schemes one was like that It was like, you owe the IRS money, you have to pay $5,000 right now, and you had to go and get money or $800 or whatever. Another scam was where they were hiring, like, like it was somebody in the industry, in the photography industry, and they contacted, they said, hey, we're from like Vanity Fair, whatever, some big company. And they said, we're going to hire you to do a photo shoot in Europe.

Right. Okay, great. So they get their stuff together. they send them a letter of intent, like it all looks really legit to them. And so just before they're leaving, they're like, okay, look, you have to pay for the plane yourself, we'll reimburse you, and you have to pay this $800, you know, photography fee from Italy. You have to front that money. So then you pay $900 to get your plane ticket.

You pay, they say you have to send us $700 or $800, whatever the cost of this license or fee to be a photographer. from the United States. So you pay that fee. Then when you get there, there's another fee you have to pay. They end up getting like very little money, like $1,100,000, it's minor. This person literally paid for their plane ticket,

flies over to Italy. I mean, it's a whole thing for very little money. And they were like, well, what do they do wrong? And I'm like, well, most of what these people did wrong was they didn't listen to their intuition because every one of these people thought something doesn't feel right. Like that's not right that you're going to make me pay up front.

Like, you're hiring me. Why am I putting up my money? But they were so excited about getting this opportunity to work for Vanity Fair, or whoever, it wasn't Vanity Fair, but whoever this big-time person was, they were so excited they didn't want to raise a fuss. You know, the kid is excited. He felt like something wasn't right, but he paid anyway. Right. You know, the thing is, they didn't question it. Like, there's no reason not to question.

Like, well, I didn't want to upset that. What are you talking about? You're going to upset them. You're asking me to 20 grand. I'm going to make a couple phone calls. Why can't I get up the phone with you? you. Why can't I call the hospital back? Why can't I? You know, they didn't do that. And that was, so that was the whole thing. So I've heard of scams similar to that. And then one of them was like

the, the tax type scam, you owe this much money. You know, the big one is where you get these things from Social Security. You get a call. Get the call. Yeah, I've been getting those. You know, I've gone. Your number has been. Well, you know, your Social Security number has been suspended or canceled or, what do you think of coming out? Like, you know, I, you know what I feel like saying like I one time they called and they were I was on the phone in my car and I was telling the guy bro

please call me back I'm on my car right now I can't talk but I don't want this to happen I don't want my you can't suspend my like I'm telling him like I'm terrified please but you have to call me back there's nothing I can do right now I'm in my car because I was trying to get home so I could set up my camera shit so I could record it

just because I thought it'd be hilarious I mean I literally wanted to get him on the phone and say listen bro obviously like you're in some sweatshop in India or where's the other one uh is it not indonesia no not angle uh Nigeria Nigeria they're they're they're awesome so you know I wanted to be like listen you're in some sweatshop in Nigeria you're very good but you have to understand there's what you're saying doesn't make sense like everything about the scam you know anything about how our system

works you can't suspend my social security number what does that even mean what are you saying like it's it's levitating right I don't need my social security like suspended how are you good like that doesn't mean anything to an american like that you're not going to so i wanted to say look you really need to here's how you do this okay like i want to tell them i got a better one listen stop telling people that right then you're losing 30% of your people by saying that stupid shit stop it like i want to tell him here's what you do did he call you back no he they never do i've had him on the phone like four times i always act terrified. Oh my gosh. No. Call me. I'm ready to give you whatever I need to get unsuspended.

Listen, sometimes when they start transferring you, because they realize, at some point, they start transferring you. And I'm like, well, what do I need to do? Like, you can tell they know that I'm giving them shit. Like, they're like, this is serious, sir. I'm like, oh, I'm terrified. I'm terrified. And they're like, you can tell they almost want to go, you know, you know what's going on, don't you? You know, you know, we're fuller. You know this is a scam. Yeah, shut out. But, yeah, I never managed to get the camera gear on. That would be so great. One day, one day. Yeah. Or you, because this is the problem. Like, they call on your phone. So if I had another phone, I could just go, oh, click, I could record it. Like, I can turn on the video and be like,

no, but I can't. I can't do that. I have to go home and get my camera. It sucks. We might want to get a phone for those type of scams. So your boy would get people, he'd get people, old people, to give him 700 bucks here, 800 bucks here, 1,000 there. Yes, yes, yes, daily. One of them, he had some number, I guess it was a gay site or it was a phone number, and he said, you just contacted an underage girl, and so you're about to be arrested.

I mean, all the stuff to scare people, and they would pay it. So I knew a guy who, like, I'll, I'll, I'll tell him to watch this. Oh, my God. he was from Peru and he was in Peru and he was selling he had a a phone I would say it wrong the phone whatever it's like 500 people in a in a room like sweat like a phone sweatshop where they're selling I forget like a telemarketing telemarketing so he called it something phone center he called it a phone center right so he said I have a phone center he would run ads on like Spanish TV in the United States he thought because he was

in Peru they can't get me like I don't they don't know what I'm doing is illegal you know or I'm not breaking any laws in Peru and because I'm in Peru I'm not really breaking laws in the United States like he thinks he found like a loophole

idiot I mean so he ends up running these commercials for like the ab roller right so you pay $200 for like the ab roller or something when you can get an ab roller for like $29 and you're still overpaying So he's saying, look, but it's COD.

So you just call, you know, and the commercial is like, look, you know, they've got some big fat guy who gets the ab roller, and then suddenly they show another guy who looks like him, he's really thin with ads, he's like, oh, I did this for two months. I mean, there's just completely ridiculous app. And these guys at 2 o'clock in the morning, they call. Did it shut off? You're good? So at 2 o'clock in the morning, they call,

because they don't have to pay anything right then, it's COD. and they order it. Well, then he would have it mailed there. And, of course, when they get it, they're like, I don't want this. Like, oh, it's $200, it's $150, whatever it is. They're like, now they have to fork out the money. They're like, yeah, I don't want it. Oh, okay.

Well, you gave them all your information on the phone. So his collection company, now most of these people are like illegal aliens, right? They're calling it 2 o'clock in the morning. They're a laborer. and so his collection company would call and say look you ordered this and you didn't get you didn't pay for yeah I know I changed my mind no no but you ordered it you owe the money so we're going to file a warrant against you and it's our understanding that you're in the country illegally now 90% of them work and they'd be like well well yeah you're you're an illegal alien you know Mr. Juan you know Mr. Sanchez or Mr. you know whatever and they'd be like oh oh they say look we're going to be like well we're going to We're going to, we know your address, we're going to contact ICE, we're going to, so now you're, it's basically, it's, it's, you're threatening them, but they, it's extortion. Right. So it falls under, that falls under the extortion law.

You can't threaten someone with the rest. You can't threaten, like, this is all, keep mind, they are illegal. They didn't pay. Right. But, you know, there's no, now you're saying arrest, warrant, deportation. Like, you can't do all that. What are you doing? Without the authority, yes.

Right. You don't have the authority. And he's like, yeah, but, yes, but we were in Peru. He was like, so what? So people would, and then he would do this. Like, he'd say, now you owe, we've already filed, like, you, three days ago you didn't accept it. We've already filed a warrant. So now you owe $500 to get the warrant quashed, plus the $200 for the abral or $100, whatever it was.

And so they're like, oh, like, they're terrified. Then they have them immediately go and put money here and wire money here and go to Western Union. I mean, they're, they got these people terrified. So he's like, we did this for, you know, a year or two, whatever. It just went and he's like, the collections were massive. And then by the way, they never sent to the ab roller. I was like, did they get the ab roller? He goes, no, why would I get the app roller?

I'm not rescinding the ab roller. I used the same ab roller. I had to buy six of those things. The box was empty with the brick. So who's going to fork out 200 bucks? So what happens is eventually he gets indicted. Like they track back. The FBI tracks it all the way back

and eventually figures out who it is. They indict him and three or four other people. And he thinks it doesn't matter that I'm indicted. He doesn't even know he's indicted. He literally comes to like fly into town one day on a convention. Why? Because he's also a poker player. So he flies in for a poker tournament.

And of course, he gets to the airport. he gets off the plane you know well i hear all i'm here i kind of what i'll do i think i'm gonna go i'm gonna check out that circus allay and i'm gonna do that look up see how my brother's doing and boom hands behind the back slammed them down you know the whole thing never got out of prison how much i mean he got like he got like four years or something and you'd have thought you'd have thought they gave him 40 years he cried the whole time he the whole time he the whole I don't deserve this I don't this and I was like yeah what does it matter I mean you were only extorting little brown people and he was like yeah who cares who cares about them and he was like stop it don't say you know he's he's he's peruvian so he's a little brown

he's so he'd be like stop do that's not what I was doing I was like yes you were you were oh so who can the hell with those guys right that you terrified them stop it and then he would say everyone's well he'd go they were illegal That justifies it. That justifies it. They shouldn't have been there. They're not Americans anyway. I'm like, apparently the U.S. Defends them.

Yeah, exactly. The U.S. prosecutors felt that that was still illegal. It's like you can't go around shooting people because, you know, I know I shot that guy, but illegal. Your Honor, good point. That's a good point. So, yeah, that's a two-point reduction. yeah he uh the whole time he was upset about and and when i first met him the before i first it was he shouldn't be here right that's what he kept saying i shouldn't be here i didn't do anything

wrong i don't know what those what the collection people were doing like those were subcontractors i don't know what they were doing and then as i hung out with him and talked to him you know they slowly starts admitting a little here a little there and i'm like look you're a con man bro i mean that's a that's a that's a con man that's a that's a con man Yeah, oh, no, he's, look, he was, this is another thing he was doing, which I thought was great. He would, so you have different tiers as far as, because eventually he says, he finally, he says to me and my buddy Pete, he goes, I had a buddy Pete in prison, and we used to go, come on, bro, you're, look, your scumbag, is okay, I'm a scumbag, do, work together, work, it, okay, you stop it, stop it, that's not true, no, but eventually he says, He admits, I knew what they were doing. Yeah, I knew what they were doing.

I even told them what they did. That was a big problem. There were e-mails where I told them, do this, do you know, I was telling them, I knew. You know, so, but then as we start, he all starts opening up and telling us stuff he was doing. I remember him telling me, he's like, I'm telling you stuff that I've done that nobody knows.

So, I mean, one, so soccer games, for instance. They have different tiers. Right. And so he's in South America. in South America you can bet on anything you know you can bet on anything here but you can bet on South America let's say different like you have like whatever the different tiers as far as like you know A league triple A league whatever as far as um soccer games are concerned so he would get but you can only bet so much right out of the country no he's in Peru right but betting on like

Peruvian or Venezuela soccer. So where was the limitation said? For Peru or? No, no, in general. Just on the app. So there's like a betting app. Okay, okay. And you can take a bet on to decide who win.

Is it going to be the tigers or are going to be, you know, the elephants? Which one's going to win? And by how much? And, you know, they have different, like, oh, they're going to lose by this much or they're going to win by this much or more than this much. And he said, the problem is you could only bet so much. So the people running the thing, they can only. are we good they they can only um lose so much right so but keep in mind he had these call

centers and he has 200 300 employees so he would go and he would open up the he would get accounts on the betting app in all the employees name and he would start betting like close to the max that the all right so he would start betting he would start betting he would start betting for the employees close to the max, that they were going to lose by more than a certain amount. Right. Does that make sense? So you're supposed to lose by at least three points, three goals.

He'd put up with six. Yeah, he'd say, right, they're going to lose, but they're going to lose by six point, at least six. Right. And then he'd bet, like, close to the max on, like, 30 or 40 or 50 different employees, because he could only go so much. Then he would turn around, and he'd go to the soccer game,

and just before the soccer game, And he told me, he said, I would go. He said, this is actually what he said, what happened with him. He said, one time I walked in, like, to the locker room. And he goes in, and he goes into several of the, they're like four or five of the, like, the top guys of the team. And he walks in, he said, hey, listen, let me talk to you. They're like, hey, man, we can't. We're getting ready for the game.

We can't talk with. I got a proposal for you. They go, we can't, but we've got to go. We're a couple of minutes, but you're not supposed to be out here. You're not supposed to be in the back. What do you do? And he's telling the guy, close the door. and the guy's like no no no he's going I don't we don't have no proposal he's

look listen you're gonna lose what is you're gonna lose we all know you're gonna lose the other they're supposed to beat you by like three points at minimum you're gonna lose he's like no we're gonna we're we got a good chance he's like look I'm not said look we both know you're gonna lose I'm saying I've got there's money in it for you if you lose by a certain amount and he said the guy actually stopped and went Juan, close the door. He said, the guy closed the door, and he said,

you're supposed to lose by, you're scheduled to lose by at least by three points, right? He said, I'm asking you, if you guys can lose by six points, I'll pay you $1,000 a piece. And, of course, whatever it was, they were like, whoa, like I don't know what the equivalent,

what the amount was. A soccer team is what, like 10, 12 people? Yeah, but he's not, it's not all of them. He goes just like four or five, like the top guy. you only need a few guys to be like the the bulk of a soccer team is pulled by a few guys right you know the other guys are holding the positions but they're average like he's got like the top four guys like you know so okay so uh like the goalie or whatever you know so there's a good that's the important right right so he hits them up and they're like all right all right he said so then of course he said the bets they were already made so I've already put the money in on these guys he said and I got these guys said man he said they lost by like nine points or something he said outrage He just like I got paid. He said I ended up making like $30,000 or something. And each employee, this guy got like, however many, I don't know what they're called.

They're not called paid. They've got like the, I always call them Peruvaboo's because he's from Peru. Peruvaboo. I mean, so you made what, like 20, 30 Peruvibu's? And he'd go, they're called Lira. I think they're called Lira. I go, whatever. So how many Peruvibu's did you make?

I mean, I think your currency is wood or something anyway. It's something bizarre. something bizarre so um he uh yeah so he that was like and he did that all like over and he's like oh one time i did this one time i did this and he was like because the lower the tier you can't bet as much but he said these guys are playing for like 50 bucks he said so you go in and you say look three hundred dollars they're like wow like you go peru for 300 bucks that's like that's the average person's monthly income right they're like three hundred dollars we play two games games a month. We get paid 50 bucks plus I have to have another full-time job.

Heck yeah, 300 bucks. So he pays three or four guys, 300 bucks a piece, and he wins 30 grand. Ringing it. Ricking it. That's illegal everywhere. Yeah, I know that it was, but I'd never met anybody that had done. I'd never met anybody who'd done it. Me either. That was one of the things he had done. Plus the, his whole extortions game. And I always loved it when I would say, well, your whole extortion thing. It was an extortion. I'm like, that's not what your indictment said that's not what the articles that I read said yeah enough already how we deny the painfully obvious so that's the only what what was it so you think I remember now oh I remember she tonight you'll be laying in bed going oh yeah I should say this we'll do another

one I got these guys keep mine I was in a low security for you were in like a medium or And a pen, in a penitentiary. Yeah. Well, you were in the medium and a pen. You were in a medium at one point. But even still, there's still just a bunch of, it's 99% thugs. Well, there's like, there's like 30 guys in the whole, there's like, there's like, the drug dealers are boring. Yeah, well, there's like 20 guys on the whole compound that you can actually have a conversation with, you know.

And everybody else is like, it's just drug dealer. And generally, so here's not to get off on that topic, but in a penitentiary, the, the, drug dealers are boring they're they're fictitious most of them they're not even real all the stories you can't even believe it but um the interesting people would be the murderers the murderers the murderers are very interesting those are the ones you talk to but i did i did meet a a guy that was in for like bernie made off or the um what do they call that a um what was Bernie Madoff was a Ponzi scheme that they accused him. I've been trying, I want to look this guy up because they,

they, he beat them in, listen, he beat them in trial. Like, this guy reminds me of you, man. So, except, listen, if you're a scumbag, a con man, everybody always said, you know, he reminded him. No, no, no, no, no, no. Okay, all right, so. You mean because he was handsome. He was, he's a handsome guy.

He had to slick, back hair he was he was he was debon he was cool as hell I called him Bruce Wayne I called him Bruce because he was wealthy right but with other people's money yeah out of Houston this was I was in Beaumont so this was out of Houston but I want to tell you the story because the okay I want to tell you the reason they had him there and what it called for you know and because I thought it was hilarious because all he did was steal people's money like his he took investors money and he didn't return it or didn't invest it the way he was supposed to invest it. But he beat them at trial the first time.

Like this is, we went to the law library. He was, he was very smart and he was telling me how he beat them at trial the first time. And the prosecutor, he thought his head was going to explode. It was red because his lawyer said, you know, when the not guilty verdict came, his lawyer's like, okay, your honor, so is my client going to be released? And the prosecutor's like, nah. No, no, I'll have him indicted in 10 minutes. And I want, the prosecutor lost his mind.

But I want to tell you this, because I can't exactly remember the specifics. But here's the beauty of it, because they got him another charge, and they managed to convict him, and he was fighting his second conviction. But the prosecutor got him to a penitentiary. Because he has, this man is never. White-collar crimes go straight to the pen. Like white collar, like never been in trouble before.

Yes. Went to trial, lost, boom, sends them straight to a pen. How is that possible? You want to get me killed? Yes. Right. Yes.

We talked about it in the library. I said they actually sent you here for what they call prison justice. Like they get in their mind because I'm fighting his points. I mean, his points were like a 17. But they gave him all his violence

because when he was in school, he got into a fight when he was in like in the in the ninth or 10th grade they put him in a pen for a fight he had in school in the ninth and 10th grade like I'm amazing but I go they put you here so that we would we would do something to you that's what I told right right but he was white white guy so obviously he had to run with the Aryan brothers and then he had to put in work so we're sitting there and I'm like beat somebody up or stab somebody or get into a fight Yes, but he was putting in work. Yes, it's putting it at work. But they put him there because of a fight he had in the ninth grade. And so he has to go there and get into another fight just to survive. And I go, that's how crappy our system is, that a prosecutor would lose a trial and think himself,

you know what, I'm going to really hurt you, including your life and everything. I'll just try to wipe your life out by putting you in a penitentiary based on something you did in the ninth grade. there was a guy I met in the low and his name was Lance I forget Lance something but he was he was basically they were come he run some kind of a fraud or something went to trial that lost out of Tampa yeah out of out of I knew him what happened to him did he you know he went he went to a pen like he lost sent him to a pen lost went to a pin and

when he got there guy a couple guys a couple big guys came up to him and said hey look you're going to pay this much money and he goes I'm not going to pay that I mean this guy's like 60 something almost 70 years old and he's little he's you know he wasn't little or anything he was a bigger guy not me was average heighty but he was white hair and he just you know look just look like an old man and he's like yeah I'm not going to pay you I'm paying anything they said no you're going to put this much money on our books every single month and we're going to protect you he says no I'm not going to do that guy punched him right bam just smashed him right and it knocked out a couple of his teeth I mean, just, you know, this guy, you know, he just, and this guy had, this guy has defense, like, he doesn't even try, he's like, I didn't even try and defend myself because I've never been punched before, so I didn't even realize it was coming, because the guy just like, was like, wham, and just, I mean, he had this, he's missing a tooth, another tooth that's cracked, another one is, I mean, prison justice. Yeah, and he hit the grand, ended up in the shoe, and then eventually the warden was, you know,

The warden was like, no, no, no, no, no. You know, the warden comes through the shoe, and eventually I think the warden came in and realized and saw him and saw who he was and looked and was like, no, no, no, no. It's called Prosecutor Justice. And they moved him, like, jumped him from, like, the pin down to, like, the low.

But he did do, like, six or eight months. And, of course, he was only on the compound for a few days. Yeah. Until that they came to him and said, hey. This, I'm trying to remember his name. I think his Vance was his name. But this guy, he made it the whole time

I think that he had to do like eight months but we were I was helping him and the he told me he could get in trouble just talking to me and but I was helping him the whole time trying to get his points down it's unbelievable it's unbelievable

he's like I got into a fight in the ninth grade and now I have to come here and jump on some guy to be able to walk to come I got to walk with the Aryan brothers all because I won trial all because I won trial the old Ponzi buying in Ponzi scheme taking other people's money and not investing it where you're supposed to invest it so I think Matt's lost interest in our

no it's not that I have a producer that I actually was talking to no a while and she's a mutual friend just in her name saying she was producing something whatever I actually pitched her story which she pitched to 50 cents people and they loved the story and then COVID happened and then I didn't hear and then she said oh it's been put on hold and then this and this happened when COVID just wiped out a whole slew of things that I had going but now it's all starting up yes it's all coming back around what was that we were talking about you know they'll they'll start going what was that story that such as such pitch to me so you can get her back on the phone you know

that all that stuff will come back around you know look listen the worst day out here better than the best day inside. So it's like, look, if things just continue to go the way they're going, I got no complaint. No complaint. Me either.

And you were in a soft camp. I was in the hard one. And the thing is the fraud story's in there, like just one after another, after another. You know, I wish I would have. You would have, it was tons. It was like great entertainment. Like, I'll bet, you know,

the problem. is like when I hear stories about violence or you know it turns my stomach so much like it depresses me so these guys that when I was in the medium and you would um you would hear guys talk about you know yeah and I kicked in the door or I grabbed the dude and it was just like like I would physically feel ill and it was like it was depressing but I went to the to the low and you sit with a bunch all the fraud guys seek each other out so you're sitting there going Well, what did you do? And he's telling you the story.

You know, you get this, this joy. It was like, oh, my God, you did what? Taking the system. What happened? Oh, that's hilarious. So what I, well, listen, I was terrified. They called it. You know, I ran out the back and I, you know, you're like, oh, my God.

Why didn't you just say this? I didn't know. I didn't know. Just like me, when you catch them delivering the story perfectly. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, in the timing and everything, as they reliving it, you know, you can see in their eyes, they're back in the moment, traveling. It's awesome.

There was a guy named Andrew Levinson who sold, he did what's called a bizop scam. That's the business opportunity scam where he sold sections of cities and would sell you like Red Bull vending machines. And you get 15 if you buy and you get this is your section and I won't sell it to anybody else. And it's a whole thing. It really wasn't that much of a scam. But he one time I remember he had told me this story and he delivered it was so just. great and then the next time like a week later we were all sitting having lunch and I said hey tell him the story about such and such and he told the story but he left out like a part of the story and I was like and I was so disappointed I was like no bro remember you said last time when you told me you said this and he goes and he's like oh yeah yeah that's what yeah that happened I'm like oh bro you next you got to tell the story like that's like you your setup was perfect like that I was trying to tell him how to tell his story that's what you're doing to me but you have you have to there's The mood has to be right.

You really have to. Because I know, because you had told me, like, look, you know, I'm like, where were you getting the guys? You were like, oh, listen, we used to go in and we were going to the court. And you would explain that whole thing. Then when you just told me, like, ah, drug dealers, this, that. It's like, well, it was. No, no, it's the court.

The court. That's the best part. You totally skated over the court. True. True. Hey, listen, you, you think you tell your story the same every time? No, no. I'm mine, I mean, it's probably subtly different.

But listen, I've heard you skim over some parts. I do, I do if I if like, look, it really, honestly, it depends on, it depends on, it depends on the subscriber count. Like if you've got half a million subscribers, I'm giving you the full story. If you've got 40,000 or 20,000 or 5,000 subscribers, then it's like, yeah, listen, I'm not giving you everything. I'm not going to tell you the two and a half hour version. You're getting the hour version, the hour version, I leave a lot of stuff out. Because you don't deserve it, or if it's like a Zoom, it's like, look, if you flew me out, you flew me out to Houston, and it's like valutainment, so if you flew me out to Valuetainment, or if you put me up in a nice hotel and I'm going to, we got it, I know we got a couple hours, you're going to get the full treatment. But if it's a Zoom and, you know, go on stop, hang me, it's a Zoom, it's the middle of day, this sucks. It's not telling you the whole thing.

Like, because your Greenville or your, what is it, North Carolina, it was North Carolina, South Carolina. That was my favorite, when you, this close, like, you just met, I love that story. And I've heard it about four times, but I'm not going to, I've never heard it the same as when we had Harmon's classroom on a Saturday. And you're out like, oh, I'm like, what, Zach, blah, blah, blah. And you're in the front. I'm at a desk and you're at the board, like, oh, boom, boom, listen. Listen. Good time.

Yes, yes. Well, you know, you have a captive audience, and I have all the time in the world. And who was it? It was me, it was one other person. I can't remember who that was. It was, it was one other person. There was, there was three of us.

What? You remember the Snickers? What was that douchebag that used to come by, and he would put a snickers on my desk? Like I was a, we were teachers. We had this idiot, these, idiot students and this guy the guy would come mega idiots guy would come in and he put his snickers on my on my desk like and I would go get out of here with your snickers

bro and he'd laugh and he did it all the time so one day he comes and he puts the snickers on the desk like yeah here's the snickers huh and I go boom I grab it I peel it open I eat it and he goes what did you do my stickers and I was like fuck you you put it on my fucking bastard ass you're and he's like you want it back he's like you owe me a snickers we had we had unfortunately we had good times with Harmon it was funny oh man I used to look somebody asked me when I got out of

prison they go what's the difference between the medium and the low and I went you know I said it's hard to explain but the simplest simplest explanation is this if you're in the medium and someone leaves a snickers on your pillow don't eat it

if you're if you come into your cell in the low and someone's left the snickers you can eat it he's like i'm sure that leaves him like he's like what is that what is that man you're not it's not dangerous you you're not going to have to do another some guy comes back for his snickers you fuck you know of course and in the medium the the guy says fuck you yeah the guy says you know oh like what was the snickers for fuck you i see you i see you i see you ate my snippet. The door closes. Fuck me.

Oh, my God. It's funny now. It wasn't funny at the time. What about the way, like, when I introduced myself to you? Do you remember that? Yeah, yeah. I'm leaning at, listen, I don't talk to nobody. I'm not talking to anybody there.

I got guys coming up to me offering to buy these sneakers. Oh, yeah. People like, yeah, what about, do you need a friend? Like, Matt, can you want to live with me? I need a friend. You're like, well, don't you know anybody on the compound? Guys like, hey, uh, homosexuality. Can I talk to you?

I mean, I've been there like two days. I'm like, yeah, what's up? Oh, uh, you need anything. I don't even know. I don't know anything about prison, but I know that didn't sound right. And I'm like, you got the, but you had the long hair, Matt. I mean, I had grown. No, it was, was it grown out?

Yes, you had the shaggy. Yes. Listen, these guys, I'm like, I'm like, no, I don't need anything. I mean, I got whatever you need, bro. You need tennis shoes. I'll get you tennis shoes you need. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I don't need anything, bro. What's good?

I'm just saying, you know, looking for me a friend, you know what I mean? No. No, I don't. I said, I mean, there's a friendly compound. There's lots of guys here. I'm sure they could be your friends. You can't talk to somebody else in the compound? Yeah, and he's sitting and he's like, I'm just saying,

And all of it, big black guys, right? All of them, all on big black guys. All right. So then I hear, I get a, and I hear Matt Cox is on the compound. Yeah. I said Matt Cox, the infamous Matt Cox. I'm like, oh my God, I've been dying to meet that guy. Can somebody point him out?

So what? He read the articles on me. Yes. So I see Matt walking on the compound. I'm like, holy Mac, well, that's Matt Cox. So I said, I'm going to introduce myself and walk up. So I said, hey, Matt, you know, I heard. We have a lot in common.

No, wait. And Matt's like, oh, my God. Oh, yeah, yeah. And then I keep walking, right? But then you came up later. He comes up. This is the one I remember because you told me this one. Right.

Because I said, hey, you know we got a lot in common. And I just walk off. So the second time, I'm leaning up against the fence. And he comes and walks over and says, leans up against the fence. He goes, hey, you know, I hear we got a lot in common. And I go, same thing, I take off. Then Sheldon or whatever

The white guy had the mullet Was it? Oh, yeah. Then he comes up to me and says, Hey, bro, I got a guy that wants to meet you. And I go, what the fuck does that mean? I mean I'm ready. I'm like, what does that mean? What do you mean you got a guy that wants to meet me?

I mean, I don't need to meet into it. You want to know, it's the meet M-E-E-T or M-E-A-T. Yeah, right? It's bad. Like, I mean, I'm having a guy. heart like at this point i'm not talking to nobody i'm i'm very uncomfortable understood understood and uh and he's like no no he's here for he goes he he wants to talk to you he knows who you are he's heard about someone what do you mean he's heard about me like who's heard about me and he's no he he's he's here for fraud

i'm like he's here for fraud he's here for fraud where is he's like he's right over there that he's tried to talk to you before he said he thinks that maybe you don't like uh black guys or something or but he's like well i mean i don't like guys that i think are hitting on me that's what i don't like. I mean, you don't, what do you do? You know, I mean, so I walked over and he's, I'm like, what are you doing? What are you here for? And he goes, you know, I read some articles on you. I'm here for fraud. You're here for fraud. I was like, what? And the rest is history. And the rest is history. Good time. Good time. 14, 13, 14 years ago. And I really assume I'd be getting out before him and he got out before me. So I remember that. So I remember that.

Remember he told me, he said, he goes, bro, I had the weirdest dream last night, and you were in it. And, like, you were calling me, and you were, and I was, I was trying to push five, so the phone call would go through. And I was, I was, at home, I was, like, watching TV. And I was, like, you know, like, every couple of months, he would tell me some story about how I was always in prison, and I was trying to call him. The same thing, I couldn't get pushed five, it wouldn't go through. I'm like, how come in all of your dreams where I'm in it? I'm still in prison and you're on the outside. And he goes, I mean, well, you've got 26 years.

And I've only got 16. So, I'm getting out before you. You were wrong about that. You were wrong. They underestimated me. And so you, like, you wanted to write me so I would have to press five. I remember when I got out, I was thinking I'm going to find him. I'm going to write him.

And I'm going to say, call me. What was the reason you said you didn't write? I was waiting until I, like, got to a point, you know, where I was, like, like, literally, you have to think, by the time I wanted to get out of the halfway house, you know, so I got, I wanted to get out of the halfway house and kind of have my shit together, like, mail you some money, you know, do something like, boom, hey, I'm out. And then, and then suddenly I got that phone call from, oh, yeah, from that crazy old boxer. Yes, that's my brother's best friend. What's his name anyway? Glenn. Glenn.

Suddenly Glenn called him, do you know a guy name? And I'm like, yeah, what? I'm standing here right now. He's, I'm like, what? Like, I was like, he shouldn't be out really good. Did he just buy a painting from you or something? He's bought a few paintings from it, yeah. Oh, yeah, he was telling me that.

It's like, oh, man, I got this guy, man. He was in for fraud, too, man. I'm like, really? What's his name? Matt Cox. I'm like, what? No, oh, I got his number, dude. It's been quite a journey, man.

We've really, none of this shit. This whole thing about prison probably shouldn't be in it. Are we wrapping this up? Let's wrap this up. This is all bad. Yeah, that's all, yeah, we... It's all bad. It's all bad.

I don't know what you're doing. I don't know why you did this. I don't either. My fault. My fault. But, yeah. Yeah. So that gets edited.

So, as far as my first broadcast, I mean, I guess I don't know how I did, but it was kind of an honor going over. But I'm sure if I can think of some more... You have to think of some more scans. Yes, yes. I've heard of, a ton and I'm just drawing a blank you know I didn't know if you were going to bring some but I could bring something I thought of good amount of time okay so bye what do we say

that's it you're supposed to say um so if you know all right my phone you go yeah i i say uh so if you like the video subscribe to the channel hit the like button share the video and leave a comment for the algorithm and turn the bell notification on so that you get notified the next time We have Zach on, or any videos so that you can listen to them and see ya. You know, that's it? Nothing, I don't.