Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - Corrupt Cop Betrayed By His Partner The Real Story

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Starting point is 00:01:09 I'm the big fish because the department will rather catch a cop. I'm worried about how things are being twisted and how things are made to be something that they're really not. I was doing so well in the academy that I became like a tutor to the other academy people. And that's where the trouble started with the first incident. with the shooting, I started doing classes for people in the academy free of, I mean just helping fellow students or whatever. And one of them just happened to be a female who was sitting

Starting point is 00:01:37 next to me in the academy and quite attractive at the time she was. I started tutoring her. And we went from studying to more than studying. Obviously, that just, I was married at the time, too, so that wasn't really a good move on my part. But yeah, so I started tutoring her. And then she became infatuated and it went left from there and went pretty bad. I mean, how long did this kind of affair go on? Initially, the affair wasn't that long. And once I realized she was becoming too possessive, I decided, all right, we need to stop, stick to just the academy stuff.

Starting point is 00:02:14 She really got overboard with it. It got to the point where when you graduate from the police department, if you were a top percentage of the department, which I was, you choose with. you go. It's like a wish list. Right. And I decided I would go to this particular precinct in Manhattan. And I chose it because it was Cupcake City, right? I wanted to start

Starting point is 00:02:35 my career just learning the job. Yeah. And she was not in the top percentage. Obviously, I was tutoring her. But somehow she finedaled it where she ended up in the same precinct I went to. I was like, wow. So yeah, she's yes. And I'm like, no. So we're going yes and no here. But

Starting point is 00:02:52 you know, things were not. not what she wanted to be in that precinct. And she started stalking me. And I mentioned it to the police department there. Did you ever tell your wife, like, listen, there's this crate, like, did you were trying to be proactive? Like, when she shows up in my house, I need to have my wife to already know this exists. That would have been a good idea, but no, I didn't do that.

Starting point is 00:03:13 Yeah, I would have laid that out. You know, probably wouldn't have mentioned the sex part. I don't think, I don't know. She's crazy. She can text him. I don't know. No, I helped her tutor. I don't, she's infatuated.

Starting point is 00:03:24 Yeah, that wasn't going to fly. at least try and kind of get in front of it a little bit in case she shows up one day, says something to your wife, then you could at least be like, I told you she was crazy. Well, hindsight is 2020. I didn't have that hindsight. So it just spiraled out of control. And at that point, I think my wife at the time obviously caught on that something was up. I had made a complaint.

Starting point is 00:03:45 The department, instead of separating her from the prison or separating me, they let it ride. So she didn't say anything to her? I don't know. I don't think so. If they did, they still had it work in the same prison. So it is what it is. So long story short, one day, we stopped talking for a while. Right.

Starting point is 00:04:03 But I was getting these calls from other men who were calling me for her. I found it odd, but I didn't catch on right away, that a guy would call my phone. I'd pick up. He'd asked for her, her name. And I was like, this isn't her phone. Or I'd get, oh, you know, this woman I was talking to, she gave me your number. She gave me her number. I said, no, this is my number.

Starting point is 00:04:22 So what she was doing was guys who would talk to her. she would give them my number. You're trying to make you jealous or something? I don't know if that was the thing or just to let me know that, look, you know, I'm a hot commodity or what have you. I didn't care at the time. But it was that type of situation

Starting point is 00:04:36 that was going on, the stalking. I'd leave the state to go play basketball in the tournament and she'd be at the tournament. It was like some real spooky stuff. So, long story, show, after all the stalking, following me around and stuff like that, one day, I mean, me and her parents are really cool,

Starting point is 00:04:52 very cool. So one day I'm making arrest, and when I'm coming to the precinct, she's off that day. But when I come to the precinct, she's there outside the precinct, even though it's her day off. And she sees me walking in with the arrest, and she's like, oh, I got to talk to you. I didn't have a big problem with her at the time. We had already stopped talking. We weren't kind of touch and go like high by. She said, I got to speak to you.

Starting point is 00:05:14 And I was like, well, I got an arrest. And that usually takes three hours, at least, a minimum. All right, so I finished the arrest. Three hours later, I come out. It's raining that day. She's still outside the prison three hours later in the rain, right? And that's when I know, like, something's up. She's like, oh, my mom needs to speak to you.

Starting point is 00:05:30 It's really important. And I go, all right, her mom and I are cool. She doesn't want to talk. She wants to see you. So I said, okay. She goes, come on, I'll give you a ride to my mom. I was like, in my mind, hell no, because I get in the car with her. Now she controls where we're going.

Starting point is 00:05:46 Right. So I said, I'll take the train to your mom's house. She doesn't live far from the train. she's after she insisted I said no I go to walk to the train she takes off in her car I'm thinking I'm gonna make it to her home before she does because she'll get stuck and rush out of traffic all right so I get to her building I go there and she's already there somehow she must have I don't know how she drove there so fast she made it to her building I go up to the apartment I knock on the door and the mother opens the door so I'm like okay perfect this is who wants to see me so I see her I greet her how you do you doing, I know you want to speak to me. She said, no, I didn't want to speak to you. And this is when immediately, okay, something's not right. The father sees me, he catches on right away that I'm there under the pretense to speak to the mom. Yeah. So as soon as he says that, he starts yelling at this woman, you know, why are you bothering this man? Leave him alone. He's not bothering you. He's

Starting point is 00:06:40 a good guy. Da-da-da-da-da. Well, I see that going on, and here's my chance. I said, let me get ready to leave. So I said, all right, well, no problem. I got to run. I'm running late. I leave. I go to leave. As I'm walking out, she leaves. She runs to the back of her apartment, which is where her room was. And I'm in the elevator waiting for the elevator to go down, and I hear her coming down the hallway. You can hear her running down the hallway. But the door is closing the elevator, so I'm like, I don't stop the doors from closing. She misses the elevator. I go from the fifth floor to the lobby. By the time the elevator gets to the lobby, she's in the lobby. I don't know how. This woman had problems in the academy physically, but not this day. She makes it to the lobby before the elevator, right?

Starting point is 00:07:21 I'm like, okay, got to deal with it. She was like sweating, acting really erratic. I knew she was under panic. She was like, I got to talk to you. I said, listen, I can't. I can't talk to you. But since it was raining, I was going to walk through the garage of her building, which is underground, and I could walk a block without getting wet.

Starting point is 00:07:40 And I'll talk to you during that one block. Yeah. Yeah, it wasn't going to go that, right? But that was my intention, right? So we get down there and I notice her car is parked, never in a parking spot. Apparently she drove into this parking lot and got out, left her car in the middle of the way. She was in a rush to beat me to her apartment, it turns out. So I get, you know, she was like, a brake light's not working on the car.

Starting point is 00:08:03 Can you look at it? Anything to appease this woman so I can get out the way. So I popped the trunk of the car. I'm looking. She's talking to me from from behind the trunk. So where you're at, there's a trunk blocking us. I got the trunk up. I said, okay, the bulb, this is what you need.

Starting point is 00:08:21 No big deal. I go to put the trunk down. And as I put the trunk down, she's pointing a firearm at me, a gun at me. And this is one of those moments where you should have decided to either duck, go around, take cover. But I thought I knew her. I put the trunk down. There goes to cover. Right.

Starting point is 00:08:41 And I stepped from behind the vehicle to in front of her. Now I'm in front of her with the firearm, and I'm like, what are you doing? Obviously, now I know that was the wrong move. But at the time, I knew her, like, what are you doing? Calm down. And she's babbling, just ranting and raving. And after a while, we weren't going anywhere. Like, there was no talking sense to her.

Starting point is 00:09:01 At the time, I might have been a little more arrogant than I should have been. I got to the point where, listen, just go ahead. Do what you're going to do. I'm not going to tell you what you want to hear. I'm saying everything you shouldn't say. I should be more appeasing. Right. Of course, we can.

Starting point is 00:09:14 can give it another try. I didn't realize you were the serious, anything to get her. I wish you would have been with me that day, Matt. Coach me through it, right? But you weren't. So I was more on the arrogant side. Like, this isn't happening. I'm not saying what you want to hear.

Starting point is 00:09:25 I'm not going to say what you want to hear. And finally, you know what? Stop playing games to shoot so we can get this going. I got to go. I got things to do. That's how ignorant I was at the time where I'm like inviting this shooting. Like, look, just do what you got to do. Sure enough, she shoots me, right?

Starting point is 00:09:40 First shot hits me in the arm. I was talking and she hit. She shoots me, and the force of the shot was so, we were so close that my arm actually flew behind my head. It was crazy. I couldn't do that if I tried. So the first shot hits me, and even then, I'm like, I was kind of surprised, obviously. But I said, like, put the gun somewhere and go. I was still to that moment thinking, we'll cover this for you.

Starting point is 00:10:08 Don't worry about it. Put the gun down and go. I'll take care of it. She shoots me again, right? Now I guess, all right, that game plan ain't working. She's now with the cover. Where did she shoot you the second time? The stomach chest area right here.

Starting point is 00:10:21 What kind of gun is this? The same one I had, Glock 9 million. Very effective, by the way. Are you wearing a vest? No, I'm off. I'm off duty. How did I not kill you? Well, that's a good question, but I'm here for a reason, so I ain't die, right?

Starting point is 00:10:35 So I fall after the second. The first shot, I didn't fall. I was just sitting there holding my arm. Second shot hits me, sent a mask. And I taught her how to shoot, by the way. So here, I taught the person to shoot. All right. Anyway.

Starting point is 00:10:49 That's irony. Yeah, irony. That was painful. So I fall back and I bang my head on the floor because I fall back without any way of bracing my fall. Yeah. And I remember bouncing my head off that ground. But I was like, for that one second I was down, I said, oh, I can't stay here. I got to get up.

Starting point is 00:11:07 I sat up. I don't know how I did that. And I tried to grab, it was an old car. You ever seen the cars that the door handles back then used to be like a loop coming out as opposed to the ones now where you put your hand on this, it's the one that you put your hand on top. So I grabbed that. She's behind me. She shoots the back of my arm that's holding, which by the way, that's an incredible marksmanship. You know how hard is to shoot something that?

Starting point is 00:11:30 I mean, I'm just saying. Right. So I don't know how I get up without my arms now and I start going towards the direction she's in because that's the only way out. I was in where a parking spot would have been. Right. I guess she thought I was coming after her. Really, I was just trying to get away from her. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:11:48 So I go towards her. She goes one way and I go the other. I start trying to make it out of this garage, this long parking garage. And I'm hearing shots. I know she shot me another time after that. Total like five shots, right, or six shots at the end. But as I'm running away, I'm hearing shots.

Starting point is 00:12:06 And I'm thinking she's shooting at me, but that's when she shot herself. hip and that was to for her story at the end which she told was that I tried to carjack her and I shot her yeah but if I'm dead there's no way for me to contest this argument but ballistics would have told it anyway we enroll each other like I'm not gonna carjack you I know you I guess she didn't think that one through yeah she just sounds like she was having some clearly some thinking problems in general yeah yeah definitely didn't have the thinking cap on that day right so I take off she shoots herself in a hip I'm running out into the streets of Washington

Starting point is 00:12:40 Heights, bloodied, full of blood. I touched my face. My face has got blood on it. Obviously, the public, people in the street are panicking. And I'm running to get to a phone. And since my hands were not functioning, I can't even dial 911. But as I'm trying to down 911, everyone else is already called 911, obviously. Police show up. Don't know that I'm a police officer. All they see is a gun sticking through my shirt that had a hole in it. It's bloody. And they're telling me, lay down, get on the ground, and I'm refusing to do that. Because I feel if I lay down, I'm not going to be able to get up again. Right.

Starting point is 00:13:12 So finally, the guy, I get to tell him I'm a police officer. I couldn't even talk, but he caught on. And he panics. He throws me in the back of this police car. And I never forget that police officer was panicking more so than I was. He's in the car. He's like, who are you? What's your name?

Starting point is 00:13:33 You know, who can I call for you? and me, I'm thinking, I don't want my mom to know about this, right? Like, don't tell my mom. I don't want my mom to know. And he's like, tell me your name. Tell me who I can call. And I'm like whispering because I can't talk. I don't want my mom to know.

Starting point is 00:13:50 And he goes to me, there's a helicopter over us following us right now on the way to the hospital. They know you're a cop who's being shot. I think your mom knows already. Right. And I was like, no, I'm still not telling you. I don't want my mom to know this way, but she already, obviously. So we get to the hospital, and it was crazy. I get, they had a whole bunch of people, you know,

Starting point is 00:14:11 locking arms together to form a path so I can get to the emergency room. And we're going through this tunnel with lights flashing overhead because they're pushing the gunny through. And I hear the doctors saying the same question you ask, where's his vest? Where's his vest? And the cops are yon, he don't have a vest. He's off duty.

Starting point is 00:14:29 And the doctor's going, there's so many entry and exit wounds probably that there's no way of help. helping him without knowing where he was shot, but they're trying to search for these shots. These insolent, like you see all these wounds. They're trying to find out where the bullets came and went. And he's basically, the doctor was basically like, there's really no hope.

Starting point is 00:14:49 And when he said that, I sat up. I don't know how I sat up there. I said, come on, Doc. Let's go. Let's go. And he was shocked. He was like, this guy is like practically flatlining, and he's over here to him out.

Starting point is 00:15:01 Let's go. Let's go. So later on he brought me back. to speak to some of his students that he's trained like that. What are interns? Yeah. So he brought me into a classroom of them and he was like, this is the reason why you don't never give up.

Starting point is 00:15:12 This guy was practically flat line and he said, let's go. He's over there like, stop talking and let's do something. And he said he was stunned by that, but it also gave him a... The encouragement to say, well, he's not giving up. And he said he was even like making light of the whole situation while he's like, oh, how many times are you shot? And he said, your answer was, I lost count. after the first or second, I don't know.

Starting point is 00:15:36 I know I've been shocked, though. You figured that out, right? And he was like, yo, this guy, he's not panicking. And that's what I think a lot of times people have the issues of survival because of panicking. They're going to shock. I wasn't going to talk myself into shock. So that was a good thing. You ever have one of those moments when you think this could go really bad?

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Starting point is 00:17:13 The first one it hit the arm is you see it hit here. It actually hit the elbow and went through my rib, going through the side, missing the rib, but it went through the side. This one hit here. It came out. It went in and hit the elbow and popped out this way. So these didn't hit your, what is it, your heart or your main, any, you would think it, They would have hit the arteries, but I can see the one. It hit veins that made my hands freeze like this. Oh, okay. So it shocked my senses to the point there. My hands were stuck literally like this for like months

Starting point is 00:17:44 until I could do occupational therapy. And it was a long road to recovery. But that's what the main effect was. It caused your fingers to freeze. I don't know if you ever saw a football player get a concussion. And he was on the ground or a boxer and they're stuck like this. Well, my hands became frozen like this for a while until like, now my hands.

Starting point is 00:18:03 good, but I had to go through a lot of therapy to correct that situation. So what happens when, so you, he fixes you up a couple days later. I'm assuming at some point the detective show up and say, what the fuck's going on? No, initially, initially I'm arrested. That's what happens because. For the carjacking? Yeah. For the carjacking that never took place.

Starting point is 00:18:24 I was arrested. And ironically, me and my dad weren't tied at the time. But he showed up for that. Yeah. Yeah, my pop is like, you know, like what's going on. He became like super dad for that moment. Defensive, protective, what have you. My mom was very upset, which was worse than the shooting,

Starting point is 00:18:41 was to see my mom upset. Obviously, everyone's upset. The hospital became a circus. Like, cops are flowing in. The hospital's trying to stop them from coming in. Cops are like, we're cops. My sisters were there. That's when we were cool.

Starting point is 00:18:55 And they wanted a piece of the girl who did the shooting. She's in the same hospital. So they're trying to find her in the hospital, which was ridiculous. It was ridiculous. And they're like, my sisters are really like, it turned up. They're like, where is she? And I'm like, I can't talk. I have a tube of my neck.

Starting point is 00:19:12 And I'm like, I don't know. She's like, we're going to go find her. And they leave my hospital room to go find her. That's not helping. That's not helping the situation. It's adding more aggravation to you. People are emotional. And that's their little brother.

Starting point is 00:19:22 I'm their baby brother. And you do this. And now you get these two wild women on a mission with no permission. They're looking for it throughout the hospital. And you can imagine it was crazy. They changed my name in the hospital so that the cops couldn't find me. Cops find me the next day they're rushing that floor. Every floor has like 50 cops at a time coming to see me

Starting point is 00:19:43 and the hospital is no control. And the hospital police are telling cops to move. And the cops are like, are you serious? Like, get out of the way. So it was really, it was a, it was training. It was a real crazy time. So what happens when the detectives, show up and you actually explain this is what happened.

Starting point is 00:20:02 I couldn't explain because the tube and I couldn't write. But at some point you did. Yeah, at some point I did. But by the time I did, it didn't have to be explained because ballistics showed that they were showing me when I couldn't speak. It's like this is what we're going to tell you what happened. Right. You were standing at this angle. This is what happened.

Starting point is 00:20:19 And we can tell by the projector and this and this that your hands were like this when you were. Actually, my hands were like this when I got shot. Yeah. And they could tell by the entry and went, I was a. they were able to tell me what happened more so. Okay. And then they explained that she was shot. And she claimed that I shot her, wrestling over her gun, that I pulled the trigger and it shot her in the hip.

Starting point is 00:20:41 When in reality, she shot herself in the hip. So what happened with her? Did she eventually say, okay, I did? No. So I'm home from the hospital. I'm not home from the hospital, but I couldn't stay in the hospital. I was going to stare crazy. She's paging me.

Starting point is 00:20:55 Back then it was beepers. We didn't have cell phones like that. She's page. She's paging me nonstop. Insane. It's bizarre, right? She's paging me nonstop. And I'm trying to still trying to cover.

Starting point is 00:21:07 Like, I'm not telling anybody, this woman's paging me. Yeah. But eventually, I tell my mom everything, I'm like, mom, this page is going off. It's this girl again. They call the police. Like, yo, it is her. She's really paging him and asking, can we fix this? Let's work things out.

Starting point is 00:21:26 And I'm like, yeah, she's obviously. She's on some strong Kool-A. Like, I can't, I can't still talk to her. And she ends up getting arrested. I refuse to testify against her because that's just not. I just, I don't know. That's like me, like, you need counseling. And this is what I was trying to express to the police department.

Starting point is 00:21:44 She doesn't need prison. She needs mental help. She needs to go to. I always love the DA's responses. They'll give her that in prison. Yeah, yeah. They're going to give it to your right. You're going to get the therapy you need.

Starting point is 00:21:56 But my thinking was she really needs counseling. link. Look, she's paging me. She's dangerous. She's dangerous, but she's not, she's not, doesn't belong in prison. That's how I felt. Oh my God. And I don't have that say. So the department says, well, we don't need you to press charges. We'll press charges. And they press charges. So sidebar, she gets pregnant before she goes in to avoid being in incarcerated. Incarcerated general population. She's going to prison. Yeah. But she's just going to go in different circumstances. So she gets pregnant before she goes in. That was crazy. And by the way, You asked, no, I was not the father of that child.

Starting point is 00:22:31 People always come up with that crazy question. I'm like, yeah, you're crazy. But no, so she gets incarcerated. She goes away. I go back to the police department. I change precincts to work in a precinct in the Bronx, which is where my career ends. But it was bizarre.

Starting point is 00:22:48 And actually, I'm not going to, spoiler alert, years later, many years later, I'm playing softball in Manhattan. And her friend, this girl's friend, I didn't know who was her friend, tries to approach me to say, listen, you know, can I talk to you? Me and my friend, we want to get to know you. And I didn't know her, the girl who's approached you. So I'm like, no, I'm good.

Starting point is 00:23:10 You know, I'm just playing softball. Her friend's cute. And she goes, well, what do you do? You want to go out? You want to smoke? And I'm like, I don't smoke. It's like, can we go out for drinks? I don't drink.

Starting point is 00:23:23 She's like, I don't know if I say. She said, you want to fuck? Well, I do fuck. I was like, well, I don't drink a smoke, but I do have sex. We can do that. But I go and I leave the park to meet her. And when she brings her friend, her friend is the girl who did the shooting. So I'm like, you can't make this up.

Starting point is 00:23:40 So I'm like, I'll pass. We're not going to try to her. But this time I'd be shooting back. What did she say anything? Like, whoa, wait a minute. Yeah. I was like, no, no, no, no. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:23:49 I was like, no, no, no. Yeah. Because at this point, you're lucky I don't shoot you now. Right. So I was like, listen. and this is a good move for you to walk away like I'm going to do, you're not going to try that again.

Starting point is 00:24:02 She's like, I just want to apologize. I said, all right, you apologized. I got to go. So I'm walking in my car, and they're walking behind me. And that's when I'm like, I turn around, I said, listen, I might have to shoot you at this point.

Starting point is 00:24:14 I don't know what you're doing. But I already said I'm not interested, and I'm not comfortable. Especially with her behind me. Yeah, not really. And I'm not good with walking backwards. So turn around, keep it pushing, and I'm going to get in my car,

Starting point is 00:24:27 we'll act like it never happened. And I haven't seen it since. So how much time did she do, just curious? I think she did like a total of four, four years, something like that. Something light. That's really light, considering... You shot somebody. Yeah, definitely, definitely.

Starting point is 00:24:39 And then you lied by shooting yourself and said, I did that. There's so many things wrong with the story. But, you know, I guess me not being a cooperative witness might have helped that situation. So, I don't know. So you moved, you're in the Bronx. Yeah. You're a patrolman? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:24:58 And ironically, right, so the girl who did the shooting, her last name is Holder. So my first day, finally recuperating enough to get back to work that put me on light duty to answer the phones. So I'm sitting there at the desk, first day in that precinct. And usually all you do is sit there when the phone rings, you pick it up and you say, whatever. The first police officer that comes to see me at that desk to tell me, listen, if you need any help, is a female. Her last name is, Holder. I'm like, can't make this up. She's got the same last name as the girl who just shot me.

Starting point is 00:25:29 I don't know if this is a prank or whatever, but it was ironic. I never forget the female's name who worked in that precinct had the same last name as a girl who did the shooting. No relation, though? No, I never asked, but I doubt it. There were two different. One is from Barbados.

Starting point is 00:25:43 This one was a Hispanician lady. So, all right, so you're on light duty. How long does that persist? I think maybe six to six months. to a year, and then I hit patrol, and I had a really good stay in the 40th precinct. I went from patrol. I did community affairs. I started a nonprofit organization because I coached baseball, and being in the South Bronx, I noticed there were a lot of kids who needed guidance, so I became a coach, and then I

Starting point is 00:26:10 started a nonprofit. So I became really a part of the community in the South Bronx. Yeah. Okay. And then I did midnight, and then I bought a couple of barbershops. which is what you're not supposed to do. I do a lot of things you're not supposed to do. So I had a couple of barbershops in the same precinct. Which I'm not even supposed to have. One, I had two.

Starting point is 00:26:30 In the same precinct. So they're saying that they don't mind if you open up businesses, just not in the same precinct. They found upon you opening businesses, period. Oh, okay. In the same precinct is totally not acceptable. So I was already. Well, what's the reason for that?

Starting point is 00:26:47 I used to take my kids for a haircut at this barbershop. and one day we're sitting there this was after I started coaching baseball so my son and I were pretty tight were sitting there in the barbershop and while we're getting our haircuts the guy next to us has a laptop out and he's playing porno on the laptop

Starting point is 00:27:04 I didn't know it but I could hear it my son heard it before me my son taps me and goes dad look at this do you hear this? I look and this guy playing pornos so I said the guy yo I'm here with my son you know that's not really cool put that away or what have you I was disgusted

Starting point is 00:27:20 I got my hair cut. I got in my car, and my son was like, he knew I was bothered by. He goes, yeah, you're upset because the guy had that thing playing?

Starting point is 00:27:28 I'm, yeah, that's just totally ridiculous. He goes, but you told me before, don't talk about it, be about it. And that's why I started coaching baseball. I used to complain, this coach is clueless.

Starting point is 00:27:39 And then one day he says, well, if you think you could coach better than him, why you keep letting us lose? Why don't you just coach us? Right. And I started coaching. Well, he used that same theory

Starting point is 00:27:46 with the barbershop. Well, don't complain about it. Make a difference. put my money in my office. I go and I buy that barbershop and in the course of that I changed the whole way the barbershop was going to be run. There was no more drugs in the barbershop.

Starting point is 00:28:00 It was going to be a really community-based place to get a haircut. That was my vision. And I did that with another barbershop 10 blocks away. I had both of the shops and they were really supposed to be run on integrity like a certain kind of atmosphere and that's where the barbershops came up. The barbershops are illegal.

Starting point is 00:28:18 You're not supposed to have them. It's not like I mentioned it to them. Right. Well, it's not, you mean it's just like policy. Like, they would be, you get, right. Okay. You could get a command discipline easily for that. You can get suspended for that.

Starting point is 00:28:30 Okay. You can lose your job for that. So, but mine, I think it's, it's a good, I hate to say, it's great policy by the department because exactly what happens. I own the barbershops and they have instant security. Right. Anything that happens in that barbershop, I'm there. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:28:48 And you don't have to quote, 911 because I'm 911. Right. And the barbershop business is very hands-on. You can't own the barbershop and be a sweetheart. Like, I'm not a gangster, but you can't own the barbershop and be like, all right, guys, whatever you want to do, they'll run over you. So I wasn't.

Starting point is 00:29:06 You mean guys in the neighborhood, they'll basically start selling drugs out of it. They'll just hang out there. They'll hang out there. They won't pay the rent. They'll just tell you I'm not paying. Well, for me back then, that wouldn't have been a good idea. Right. Like, you're not paying the rent.

Starting point is 00:29:18 What do you think? And like, you can't do that with me here. Yeah. So I don't have to call 911. I'm here. So these two barbers shops, that's why they don't allow you to own a business where you work. Because whatever it is, you can bully your way through a lot of things. Yeah, yeah. I didn't do that, by the way.

Starting point is 00:29:33 Yeah. You could. Well, you also just, you don't have to because they just, they know what your job is. And they're not going to try you. If they're smart, they're just starting to try you. Ah, so some people try. Okay. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:29:45 Bad move, but they try. Got to do what you got to do. How long were you a cop overall? 18 years in total. What year are we at now? Well, I came to the Bronx after that shooting in 97. Right. So I think the barbershops might have been 10 years later about 2007.

Starting point is 00:30:05 I don't know exact. I don't want to mislead you. Yeah, yeah. Had to be 10 years later. Roughly. 2002, 2007, 2008, something like that. There's always some jerk off in the comment section. It was 11 years.

Starting point is 00:30:17 He said 10 years. He's lying. Okay, I'm a disclaimer. I don't know the exact idea. I don't write it down. Roughly, 2007. I was nearly roughly about. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:30:26 So I'm sure there's a barber who will pop up. I worked there and it was 2012. All right. Whatever. It's close enough. So were you still married? Yeah, I was. Same woman or a new wife?

Starting point is 00:30:39 I've been going through these marriage things now. So after the shooting, I stayed married, had another son. I have three children for my first marriage. Okay. Truly a blessing, all three. I probably shouldn't say Jose, Nicole, and Justin, like, carry me through life. So I get divorced when I'm in the Bronx owning the barbershops, and I moved to an apartment in the Bronx on Grand Concourse.

Starting point is 00:31:06 So I was there. I don't know what year that was. I'm not even going to guess at it. But that's where a lot of the problems come up. So one of the managers of the barbershop, the 101.30A Street, He comes to the barbershop one day with his bags full of clothes. And he's depressed. He's stressed.

Starting point is 00:31:23 I'm like, what are you doing? Oh, my girl threw me out. I'm like, okay. I was not married. I was talking to a woman in Washington Heights at the time, who I eventually married, but I was single and had my own apartment at the time in the Bronx. But I was never home because I worked two jobs all the time, whatever.

Starting point is 00:31:40 So he comes there saying he got thrown out of his house. And me, Good Samaritan, I tell him, all right, you could take my, he had nowhere to go. and he has his kids with him. I say, hey, here's the keys to my apartment. You can use my apartment until you figure it out, and I'll go stay with my girlfriend in Washington Heights. Right.

Starting point is 00:31:57 She was happy to hear that. He was happy to hear that. I helped him. Everybody's happy. He said, oh, I don't even have money to give. I give him the money in my pocket. Here you go, go get food, go get settled in. Needless to say, later on, that backfire.

Starting point is 00:32:10 This guy goes and gets in trouble, which I can tell you later, it was crazy, and he throws me under the bus, takes pictures of my uniform in the apartment, claims that I gave from the uniforms to commit crimes, which never happened. This is all... There's probably a reason he got kicked his girlfriend,

Starting point is 00:32:26 kicked him out, too. I'm going to go all in on this one, Matt. I'm going to put all the chips in. He's a clown. Yeah. He's a clown. It's funny how, you know, people, you know, they tell their version of the story,

Starting point is 00:32:37 but most people, it's just like I would say this, if you get stabbed in prison, you probably had it coming. Like, they're not just randomly stabbing people. No, you usually get that. It's not like you just standing there, and the guy goes, hey, I pick you and that's it. Yeah. Although that has happened sometimes, too.

Starting point is 00:32:52 I've seen guys just be victim. Some guys are victims. Yeah, yeah. When you talk about prison, it's not always that you're looking for a problem. Sometimes you're a victim, and they need to find a victim to prove a point, and they choose you. Right. I'm not going to go to that. Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 00:33:05 But in general, 99.99%. It's the same thing when people continually have bad things happen to them and they're broke and they lost their job and this job and it's poor, poor me. It's typically because you just keep making one fucking bad decision after another. I concur. You can't get along with people and you're the problem. If they continue, like randomly, sure, once in a while. Right.

Starting point is 00:33:24 No, when it's consistently happening, you're the common factor, then you are the, you're it. I give this guy the keys to my apartment, whatever. How crazy. I even tell him, listen, you can't get around. Use my car. I'll get my girl to pick me up. All right. So months past, he's in the barbership.

Starting point is 00:33:43 shop, you know, I don't know what he's doing. I don't know if he's committing illegal crimes, whatever. I'm giving him the benefit of a doubt. Well, needless to say, one day, he collects the rent once a week from the barbers, and I get it from him, and I pay the rent for the shop. So one day, he calls me in the middle of the night, and he goes, listen, I just got robbed by cops, right? I'm like, what? He's, yeah, the police pulled me over. Got, came, took the money from the car, took the rent from the barbershops from the car. And drove off, right? And I'm thinking, I was born a night, but not last night, right?

Starting point is 00:34:18 This guy probably doesn't want to give me the rent money. He's using the excuse. But what a stupid excuse when I could trace back, you know, I could follow up on it. So here I am. I get this corner of the middle night. The cops from the 40th precinct have robbed them. I get out my, I put on my clothes. I run to the 40th precinct.

Starting point is 00:34:37 I said, meet me at the precinct. He didn't explain to me that they took a bag of drugs from the, like a garbage bag full of drugs. Okay. A large amount of drugs from the car. And they took the money. So I show up there under the pretense that they took money from him. And I go there to the precinct with him and I'm on fire, right?

Starting point is 00:34:58 I'm like, point out the cops who did this. I want to talk to him. So he says, yeah, there's the detectives and this and that. And I'm in front of this precinct, pretty hot and bothered. They come out. I'm like, where's the money that you took from this car? In a way, that helps me. because it proves I don't know about the drugs

Starting point is 00:35:15 because why would I come somewhere and say, you stole my drugs? Right. I'm saying money's missing from the car. So I think that might have been a plus in some ways that they were like, obviously he don't know we have, that this guy's using his car to push drugs. Right.

Starting point is 00:35:31 He wouldn't come here to argue about it. So later on, it turns out he had been arrested with a gun. And like a lot of these gangsters do, these wanksters do, when they get into a problem, they start talking. looking for someone else. Well, I know a cop, and I know this, and he's the one, he's showing me, he's giving me his uniforms, all these things he's making up, I'm the way out.

Starting point is 00:35:51 And I'm also the way out for the other guy. Everybody uses me as a scapegoer. I'm the big fish because the department would rather catch a cop than they would rather catch the typical. It makes them look good. It makes them look like, hey, we're not corrupt. We don't participate in it. We don't tolerate it.

Starting point is 00:36:08 We arrested a cop. We're a good department. Right. Like, I mean, it's a lot of because I'm, Had guys who have been like, why would they go after one of their own? There's always, oh, they protect one of their own. They protect one of their own to a certain extent. Right.

Starting point is 00:36:21 And then they find a scapegoat and they go for that one. Right. Right. It's a subtlety, but it's not usually the entire department would have to be corrupt for them to cover every single person. Right. You know, so they're protecting your own to a degree. Right. To some extent. And then they have.

Starting point is 00:36:40 But I'm not going to let you run drugs out of the department. Right. Right, so they're just to an extent. Like, we'll let certain things go. Slot, yeah. This guy's making up a story, but we'll buy what he's selling because. Well, they want to hear it. Yeah, and it's a great story they're telling them.

Starting point is 00:36:52 It's not true. But they're able to say, well, he does have pictures of my uniforms. And the other guy is saying this, so all of it's adding up. And he's got two barbershops that he shouldn't have. Do they know that? Or is he throwing that in there? He didn't even know to throw that in there. I'm sure he threw that in there.

Starting point is 00:37:07 Oh, okay. But I don't know if he knows that that's frowned upon. No, he might not have known, but I'm sure he. had to tell him. How did this even happen? How do you know him? He's the owner of the barbers shop. Oh, now we start a whole different.

Starting point is 00:37:19 Cannon worms, right? So that was one incident. Well, so you're sitting there. So you go up to the cops. Do you go up to the cops and say, do you take money off this guy? Right. I'm with him in front of the precinct.

Starting point is 00:37:29 And what do they say? And they're like, no, you know, they're kind of stunned. Like, why is he here to argue about drugs? And I'm not arguing about drugs. I'm arguing about this money. Yeah. And they're like, no, the guys who were working the squad tonight, they're out on patrol, they're not going to be back.

Starting point is 00:37:44 They're giving me all types of reasons why I can't talk to the guys who took the money. And, you know, at the time it was like, it was a futile argument like, all right, I'm going to have to charge this to the game and figure this out when I get back to work, like why this is happening. Right. He never tells me they took drugs in the car. He just tells me they took money. So, I mean. Well, so real quick, I have a question.

Starting point is 00:38:06 So they pull him over. He gives them some information. They still take the money and the drugs, but they, let him go? Right. Well, they didn't let him. From what he told me is that they pulled him over, they take him out the car, they search the car, he's standing in the back of the car.

Starting point is 00:38:22 They search the car, they take the money and the drugs from the car and tell him, you know, they keep him outside the car, they get in the police car, and they drive off, leave him on the side of the highway. That's what he tells you. Well, he doesn't tell you about the drugs. He didn't tell you about the money. So then, but when you later look into it, you find out, you go to the, what do you

Starting point is 00:38:40 piece together that they did pull him over, but they They took money and drugs and then they let him go. Right. They didn't let him go. They drove off. I believe they did that. Okay. You believe they did take the...

Starting point is 00:38:50 So you believe they did just basically rip them off and leave. Right, right. I believe that. Okay. Him not telling him about the drugs is a major. Had he told me that, then I would have been like, why would you have drugs in my car to begin with?

Starting point is 00:39:03 You could have started backpedaling. You got to get out of the apartment. Yeah, I could have... He knew that I would have been like, well, everything changes now. You're not the manager to the shop. I want no connections to you. and he knows that.

Starting point is 00:39:13 So later on, I'm going to fast forward. Later on, after my arrest, he gets arrested as well. Something totally separate, I guess. I'm in Rikers Island, and he's visiting me. Somehow he gets to visit me. And I was saying, how does this guy go from being arrested to now visiting me? He was in the van that I was arrested, and he's sitting next to me. And he's like, oh, you know, this is crazy, this and that.

Starting point is 00:39:39 And I'm like saying, all right. next thing I know I'm in Rikers Island and he's visiting me he went from being arrested to visiting me and I was like that doesn't make sense turns out he's wearing a mic yeah yeah he's wearing a mic I knew that I was thinking is he working gathering information for them yeah he's working with them but me at that time I had started my walk in faith like I was really starting to read the word I was more focused on trying to change things for the better I knew I was doing things I shouldn't have done. And at the time, I was more into this walking with the Lord. Right. So when he comes to visit me, he's talking to me about rubbing out an informant, right?

Starting point is 00:40:22 And I'm like saying, why is he talking to me like this? Like, yo, I got a guy who could, you know, this is the only problem we got is this one guy. He's the only witness against you. I got somebody who could rub him out. And me, I'm sitting there not aware. I go, leave that guy alone, man. takes care of all things like and he's frustrated because he wants me to say he wants to get you on a attempted murder right he wants to get me on the conspiracy so he's like but i could get him i'm like don't leave him alone right he's like no you want this and i guess after why he realized this wasn't working i'm like listen leave that guy alone everything's going to be fine i'm not worried about it i'm telling you leave him alone right well let's let's go back let's go back so let's go back to so you you chalk up

Starting point is 00:41:08 The money's missing. These cops took it. You chalk it up to, okay, that's just, well, I got clipped, you know, for some money. I had to hold that one down. Pay the rent. You keep going. You keep letting him stay in the place? He's staying in the apartment.

Starting point is 00:41:20 Is he still letting him collect rent? No. Okay. You're not collecting rent. But he's also not paying rent for the apartment. And he's not telling me that. Only way I find out is one day I happened to stop by the apartment. Out of curiosity, see how things are going.

Starting point is 00:41:33 And I see the slip that you haven't paid rent in four months. The rent is backed up. Right. He has never paid. paid the rent. And that's when I take him, you're not working in the box shop. Yeah, we're done. And then he gets arrested after I get arrested. Is he a drug addict or something? Like, what do you with this money? He's just, uh, derely. He's a clown. He's just somebody who's always hustling, and sometimes guys are not good at hustling. And he's not good at it. And he's a failed hustler.

Starting point is 00:41:55 And I'm, and I'm paying the price for him. He might need a day job. He might need a few jobs, right? So at the end of the day, he's there to record me. It doesn't work out. This should help me when I go to trial. When they charge me to conspiracy, where's the recording of me saying, no, don't do it? And the attorney I had a time was like, I didn't hear it. So my son had to get all the recordings and go through, comb through hours and hours and hours of recordings and he finds it. Well, okay, I know what you're saying. But let's go back to he's still in the apartment. Right. Right now there's no investigation. The cops just took the money and let him go. So how do we get to the point where there is an investigation,

Starting point is 00:42:39 where they do start saying, oh, wow, we got to. No, the investigation was going on. Why was it going on, though? I'm sure the first guy, there was another guy who started this whole thing. He got caught with a credit card scam, and he starts this whole thing going. Okay, I didn't know that. We even talked about that. Right, we didn't talk about that.

Starting point is 00:42:57 Okay, so what happened there? I didn't realize it at the time. That's why I didn't realize there was an investigation going on. Okay. So at the time this happens, they were already investigating. me. This is just another part of the investigation. Okay. So what happened with the credit card? Oh, that's the first guy. So I own the barbershops. This guy comes in. I don't keep his name. I won't even bother with it. He comes in and he says, listen, Jose, I want to open a barbershop,

Starting point is 00:43:23 but my credibility, nobody's going to rent me a space. Could you talk to the real estate agent you spoke to, see if you can get me in? Right. I'm like, no one's going to rent you anything. Obviously, your name is no good. He goes, well, how about you rent the spot? and let me open the barbershop in there it's under your name. I said, well, that makes sense, but I'm not going to do it free. Right. I said, I'd tell you what, we had an agreement. I would put 12,500, which at the time was a lot of money.

Starting point is 00:43:49 12,500. That's a lot of money. I like 12,000, 500. Yeah, now you know, that is a lot of money. That's not chump change. If you were making 12,500 a month, I'd be thrilled, right? Yeah, but at the time, that was a lot of money. Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 00:44:01 I digress. That is a lot of money. Okay. All right. So 12,500, I'll put up for you. I'll get the lease for the place that you went over to a barbershop. You use the $12,500 to get chairs, mirrors, what have you. What the catch is that I'm giving you $12,500, you have to give me back $25K.

Starting point is 00:44:19 Like, I'm doubling what I'm giving you. I'm giving you a year to give it back to me. Right. It's a good deal at the end of the day. He says, sure. I give him $12,500. I'm investing into another shop now. He takes the money.

Starting point is 00:44:33 He buys some chairs, but he's usually. using the place, overnight gambling, guys hanging out. It's connected to an apartment building. So the tenants in the building are complaining to the landlord. These guys are playing music late times. They're hanging out. I keep getting wind of it, so I approach him. I said, listen, you can't use that place for what you're doing.

Starting point is 00:44:55 You're going to lose a lease. Fast forward, he keeps doing it. The landlord calls me. Lease is dead. No more you have to move out. I call him. Listen, you have to move everything out. The lease is no longer valid.

Starting point is 00:45:07 They don't want us in there. Now, I told you that. I told you this was coming. You knew where it was headed. Here's where the problem starts. He says, all right, I got a move. I said, by the way, you still owe me to 25K. Like, I don't care what you did wrong.

Starting point is 00:45:19 I did my part. You still got to give me to 25K. He's like, how am I going to do that? I said, I don't know. That's a good question, but you better come up with it. At the time, I wasn't so friendly about it. I was maybe a little more assertive than I should have been. He's like, all right, well, he's.

Starting point is 00:45:35 not paying. Yeah. And every month goes by, I'm getting more and more. I feel some sort of way about it. And I start approaching him. Where's the money? And he's one week, one, you know, I don't have it, but I can give you a laptop, you know, because he's running a scam that he's running. So he gives me a laptop. I said, okay, thanks for the laptop. I see you still owe me 25K. That has nothing to do with you own me. That's just to keep me quiet for the time being. I guess he felt that pressure and he starts getting in situations. He was running a credit card scam, more have you, and they rated his place, and this is the way out of it. Well, you bother me for the credit card scan, but this cop is doing this, and he's this and that,

Starting point is 00:46:16 and that's when we start having problems, he starts doing things to get, like, he owes me the money, and since he can't give me the money, he's like, well, I got a guy who's with a friend I know, he's staying in a hotel, this is one of these situations, and he's got money in a hotel, but he's leaving the hotel, and my friend says, go there and take the money. key to the hotel. I said, all right, no problem. I drive him to the hotel. I'm not doing anything. I'm driving. I get to the hotel. He goes in the hotel. He gets the money, comes out. This is all the sting operation. Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, all right, he owes me 25. Here goes 2000 or the 25. Okay. But it doesn't, it's not what it really is. It's me

Starting point is 00:46:55 helping you. But I'm not, I'm not justifying it. I'm just saying is that I'm not robbing the public, the good guy citizen. Everybody who's involved. Everybody who's involved in, but, I'm not, with his operations are all guys just like him. And there were several of these things that went on. I was going to say it's the problem is it's the same. It's the bank robbery. You know, hey, hey, I know these guys that are robbing banks. You know, how do you know that?

Starting point is 00:47:19 I'm driving the getaway car. Right, right. So you're robbing the bank. You're robbing the bank. So here I am. Right. I'm doing all these things. I'm not doing it directly, but it doesn't matter.

Starting point is 00:47:28 You're trying to recoup your... I'm recouping my losses. It's not, I'm not doing it. It doesn't matter why I'm doing it. It's the end of the day I'm doing it. Yeah. So I'm accountable for it. And it's why I'm like, all right, I'm not disputing these things because I am doing something I shouldn't be doing.

Starting point is 00:47:41 I'm just not doing what you're making it seem like I'm doing. Right, right. Well, you know, it's funny. It's the distinction when people, I get people for my crime, they're like, oh, you rip you're ripping off old people. And no, no, I was getting the bank to lend me money. I was ripping off a bank. Right, right. But they want to twist it and say, oh, you're robbing.

Starting point is 00:48:02 You're stealing people's life savings. No. No. You're using the system. The bank is what's just giving you the money. So I don't mind telling you what I did. This is what I did. And I'm not justifying it.

Starting point is 00:48:14 It's not a good thing. It's wrong. It's fraud. But don't go crazy and start telling me I'm taking old ladies fucking pension funds. And this is exactly how I felt. They were acting like I was robbing old ladies knocking guys over. Guys hardworking people. And I'm coming.

Starting point is 00:48:27 No, it's not like that at all. Everything I'm involved with is I'm taking. Now, I'm not robin hood. But I know that the. people who are the victims of this are guys who really aren't paying taxes on their income. I'll put it that way. So I didn't feel so bad for that. So then you got the guy who gets the money taken. And so that guy gets the money taken. And then he's still staying in your property. Right. And once the money got taken, he was still staying there. I just didn't let him collect

Starting point is 00:49:00 the rent anymore for the barbershop. I did take some precaution. Yeah, yeah. And I didn't realize what he was doing later until I went to the apartment and found that the rent was being paid and that's when I tell them all right that's got to go yeah you got to go and you know as far as the other guy these both of these guys testifying against me or what have you they're getting out of trouble yeah yeah but they need a scapego and I'm him yeah right so what what how does it progress from there I mean you you're still running the barbershop yeah I wasn't there we are just coming yeah the rent what have you and, you know, it's being, the barbershops are being, having surveillance done on them, but I'm not part of that drug situation.

Starting point is 00:49:42 So anytime I'm coming to the barbers, the people who are there, some of them are undercover detectives posing as barbers. Right. Who are trying to catch me saying, let's do something in here. I come in, the guy's a new barber. He's really a detective, whatever. He's like, yeah, what's up? I got a friend.

Starting point is 00:49:57 You mind if we use the first year to sell wheat? I'm like, are you out of your mom? get out of my shop. Right. I don't tolerate that. And I guess these sting operations, they're all learning like, this is not what we think he is. He's not allowing anybody to do anything in the shop.

Starting point is 00:50:15 And when he comes, they're all alerting each other. Stop what you're doing. Here he comes. So that's what's going on. They don't want to hear that. That's not what they want to hear. That's not helping the investigation. Right.

Starting point is 00:50:25 So a lot of things, I'm foriling the investigation without even trying. It's just natural for me not to allow it. I was going to say I had a guy that had a pain management clinic and they kept sending him people to talk to the doctors and they're like, oh, they're showing them an MRI with lower back issues. And he's saying, oh, my back hurts up here. And I, you know what they're setting them up. Yeah, they're setting them because there's a way that they can do it. And then they say certain things where they say, how often do you drink? I have a couple beers a day.

Starting point is 00:50:55 Okay, well, right now I can't give you pain medication. Like they have little things that they can say. and then if the doctor continues to give them the prescription, he's now broken the law. The problem is they send in like three different CIs and one time with the doctors give them, they were like, I'm sorry, I can't. Wow, it's not what they want to hear.

Starting point is 00:51:15 Oh, they don't want to hear that. So eventually they end up, they still go to a grand jury. They get them for like money laundering and some other thing. They still come up with a reason because at this point, it's been months and we're investigating. We kind of have to almost justify our budget. Like we don't want to spend $100,000 on an investigation, and we got nothing. So the guy ends up lying in front of the grand jury.

Starting point is 00:51:40 It's a whole thing. We had a similar situation with CDs and DVDs, pirating of these things. The barbershop, I rent out space. So we had a person who would come in. I'll rent out this booth. Now, what you're doing that booth is on you. You just pay me the rent. apparently she's selling illegal CDs and DVDs.

Starting point is 00:52:01 I get the charges for it, not her. Right. So now when this whole thing comes up, they're throwing spaghetti on the wall, see what sticks. We're getting them for pirating and forfeiting, counterfeit movies. I never sold the counterfeit. I don't even know what the movies were,

Starting point is 00:52:14 but I'm liable now, and this becomes one of the charges, one of my indictment. And all she's got to do for her to get out of the job, her to get out of the charge to say, listen, I was just, he knew what I was doing. He told me to do it. She could say anything. At this point, I'm the reason for bad weather.

Starting point is 00:52:29 Anything that goes wrong, blame it on me. And I've caused rain and snow and everything at this point. So fine, that's where I get the illegal CDs and DVDs. It's bogus. So we're continuing. You still have the barbershops. Right. They've got surveillance photos of you going in and leaving,

Starting point is 00:52:48 which is funny because if you show that to a jury, it looks anybody going into work and coming back and they show that, Yeah. I'd be like, oh, he's up to something. That looks bad. I was believing it. I was reading out. I walked in.

Starting point is 00:53:00 I got money and I came back out. And then I paid the rent. What did I do wrong? Look, when it's shot from a surveillance van from 50 feet away, it looks bad. I was thinking I was up to something sometimes. I was like, wow, I didn't even know I did that. But, yeah, like you said, it's all perception. It's all how it's looked at, how it's presented.

Starting point is 00:53:19 So that's a lot of it. A lot of these trials. As a matter of fact, it's all theater. Yeah, yeah. Is your attorney more of an actor? than the district attorney's doctor. When we have an attorney come on and talk, they're great.

Starting point is 00:53:30 Like if they're a trial attorney, if they're a trial attorney, they're performers. They could tell a story. It's a show. Yeah, they're great. It's a show. And my attorney I had, after he got to know him, he was like, you know, Jose, you talk in a way

Starting point is 00:53:44 I would like for you to speak for yourself, but it would go backfire because you're never supposed to do that. Yeah. But he was like, out of all the clients I've ever had, do you know how to handle yourself speaking? Like, you wouldn't choke or no? And I'm like, no, but he was like, it's not a good look. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:53:57 Because once you get up there, there's a lot of things. You know how that goes. Yeah, yeah. They start bringing up stuff and there's really no way to, no good way to answer. There is no way to answer. And I won't react to it, but at the end of day, there's no answer. There's no good answer. So you're continuing on.

Starting point is 00:54:12 You're still doing patrol. You're still running, you're still whatever, owning these, the barbershops. How long does that go on before? What else happens to where they, I understand there's a, an investigation, but... The investigation was going on for years. But it's not... It's not producing.

Starting point is 00:54:30 If it's going on for years, then it's not producing a lot. Right, but we're going to keep on fishing. Yeah, yeah. And then the guy with the credit card scam, he's going to continue to do these little operations, and I'm going to continue to go along to get my money back. But every time I do it, it's a new charge. It's a new charge.

Starting point is 00:54:46 So they keep on piling up these charges. Then I get suspended, but I am still working as a modified assignment meeting. They take your fire on. and you're working in a surveillance unit yourself, probably in the housing and development or whatever. You're working in a unit where you're getting paid, but you don't have a firearm and you're not in patrol.

Starting point is 00:55:04 What do they tell you when that happened? You get called in and what do they explain? We're investigating. We're doing an investigation, and they don't go into it. So now I'm like, okay, now I'm going to chill out with this nonsense because something's wrong, and I'm not going to do anything that could perpetuate even more. Right.

Starting point is 00:55:22 Right. So now you're in a surveillance. I'm in a modified unit. I'm watching cameras in the housing development. Do the other people in that van or in that surveillance? It's an apartment that they got in the house. Do they know this guy's under investigation? They're all under investigation.

Starting point is 00:55:36 We're all under investigation. Everybody in the surveillance? Everybody in that room is there because they're modified, including the supervisor. Nobody has a gun. So if you don't, nobody has a gun in here. We're all dummies. We're sitting here watching cameras because you're not really doing patrol anymore. Everybody.

Starting point is 00:55:52 So there's nobody in there who's going. not being investigated. How is the anxiety? I've never seen a more laid-back group of guys. Oh, really? They're already at the point like, we're here. We know we're being investigated. It's just a matter of when they're going to tell us what it is or how much they're going to penalize us for. Some will get suspended. Some will be, you know, return to work. Others, the worst case scenario is mine. You'll end up going to prison. Right. So what do you think? Do you have any idea what the investigation is? I have an idea because I'm like, well, I've been, you know, going along with this guy with the credit card scam thing has to be him because I'm doing things with him that I know are not pro like,

Starting point is 00:56:34 you're not proper, but I'm like, I'm trying to recruit my funds, but I know that that's not. Yeah, yeah. It's not on up and up. So how long does this go on before they, they pull you aside? Is there a catalyst? Does something happen? Is this guy still calling you and you're just not answering or responding? Because I'm assuming they're still going to have him trying to.

Starting point is 00:56:52 Yeah, he's still trying. Are you responding at all? No, now the response is what they don't want to hear. Do they have cell phones yet? Yeah, yeah. We have cell phones. Remember I started off with pagers. That was a long time.

Starting point is 00:57:05 That was before. Now, now we have cell phones. We've got surveillance. We've got video and everything like that. See, Colby doesn't know a time when there wasn't cell phones and texting. Yeah, Colby's young. He has no idea of our pain. He doesn't know about the next hell.

Starting point is 00:57:21 He doesn't know about the beeping and, oh, wait, let me find. And you can almost every corner you go, oh, there's a pay phone. You pull in, you put the quarter, quarters. Yeah. And you put the, there's no swipe the car. Yeah, Kobe wouldn't know a pay phone and he banged his head on one. No, he's never seen it. He's never seen it.

Starting point is 00:57:36 He's seen photos. It's a good life. Yeah, he's seen it in movies. We were in the cell. We were in those phone boots. Yeah. So, or even worse, you show up and you have to wait. There's some guy on there just rambling away and you're just sitting there like.

Starting point is 00:57:49 And you better have enough change. Yeah. You got to have you. Or ask somebody. Like, can he change? You got to change. I got to go right now. Like, listen, the panic and the horrible.

Starting point is 00:57:58 These phones are hilarious. No, now it's a joke. You can't find a pay phone anymore. No. Yeah. That's funny because now I'm a client advocate for people who are released from prison. And they've been locked up for 20 years. So when they come out, you're looking for pay phones.

Starting point is 00:58:11 I'm like, stop looking. There's no pay phone. Oh, you should have seen me looking at that first smartphone. Oh, you're lost? Yeah. I'd never seen. The only I'd ever seen was on TV. I'd seen people with phones.

Starting point is 00:58:23 You know, like with smartphones. I mean, I had like, you know, I had one of the first razors where it flipped open. Wow. The razor. Yeah, probably was pretty cool. Yeah, you're a big time. Yeah. And texting had just come out.

Starting point is 00:58:36 Oh, God. Had just come out when I got arrested. You're aging yourself, man. That's crazy. So when I got out, I'm walking around looking at this phone. I mean, I'm lost. I'm trapped in apps. I can't figure out how to get out of.

Starting point is 00:58:47 I'm asking other guys. Hey, I'm there like, oh, I don't have a clue. My daughter bought me a phone. I was so frustrated. I broke the phone. I said, all I want this thing to do is ring and let me dial out. Why is this thing doing all this extra screens flashing? I'm like, I don't want to be bothered.

Starting point is 00:59:03 I'm still not tech savvy, but I've gotten better. Yeah. Yeah, so. But, yeah, no, the guy going back to, he's still trying to do more stuff. And at this time, I'm already modified. And I'm pumping the brakes on him. So he comes to me and he's like, yo, I got a guy who can do this. I'm like, nah, not.

Starting point is 00:59:22 not with it. And they realize now he's not biting anymore. Yeah, he's shut down. So I had an attorney and my attorney calls and says, listen, we want to turn ourselves in. Right? This is what we're doing. We turn ourselves in. They refuse to let me turn myself in because that wouldn't have been spectacular enough. They want to make it, like you said, we found a guy and we're going to make this horse and pony show. So by the time I was arrested, I already knew I was going to be arrest. I was trying to turn myself in and they refused to let me do that.

Starting point is 00:59:55 So how do they, how do they grab you? I was at my, uh, now with my second wife's, I live in Washington Heights. I'm at Poundteach's conference with her daughter. And while I'm there, my phone is going crazy. All the tenants in the building, the neighbors, her neighbors are like, cops are raiding the building. They're looking for Jose. And I'm like, okay, I'm not going to drive up to that building so they could, you know, play rugby with me. I'll just, they'll come, they'll know where I'm at. As I come out school, they're there.

Starting point is 01:00:26 And they're, like, pointing guns at me and, like, really? You can do the whole theater. You know I don't have a gun. Right. Because I'm modified. You all know this. And they put on a whole show like I was Benny Blanco. Like, oh, let's get them.

Starting point is 01:00:39 And I'm like, guys, relax. No, put your hands up. Guns pointed and pointing guns at my wife and my stepdaughter. It was a joke. I mean, it's not a joke. But it sounds like you guys are really doing a lot right now. But that's what it was. It was doing too much.

Starting point is 01:00:56 I always love that show for like a guy who, a tax evasion case. And it's like, this guy doesn't have a gun. He's never had a gun. He's fired a gun. He's tax evasion. He's not dangerous. You pull up with 12 officers and three trucks and you scream and know somebody called the, somebody happened to call the news.

Starting point is 01:01:12 And it's like, you know, come on. Yeah, somebody happened to call the news. Yeah. What are you doing? Yeah, this guy is all sudden armed and dangerous, but he's really a tax guy. So I don't know. So they bring you to the police station. No, they take me to some place that was not a prison.

Starting point is 01:01:25 It was some covert operation place. And I was like, oh, I was watching the World Series that night. They were there. And it was like, you know what you're arrested for? I'm like, nah, I don't really want to talk to them and say anything I shouldn't say. Right. So I'm there for a while. And from there, they take me to this boat.

Starting point is 01:01:42 It's just a prison in the Bronx called the boat. That was a nightmare. Yeah, nobody goes to the boat. Okay. I'm on the boat. they moved me off the boat because everybody in the boat, that prison spot knows me. So I'm causing a problem there.

Starting point is 01:01:56 They moved me from there to Rikers Island. There's just a lot going on. And corrections officers are very, very spiteful, painful, and I'm not helping the situation because I'm just giving them hell. They're trying to make life difficult. So it was tough transition. Do they give you bond?

Starting point is 01:02:16 Oh, goodness. So this judge I had, when I first come to court, he set a bail, which we were prepared for. We thought the bail would be, you know, 200,000 or something like that. So I said, okay, we're prepared for that bail. When he says the bail, he says, oh, bail set at $500,000. I was like, wow, that's pretty high. But my dad has property at the time. So my dad is like, all right, we got the bail, let's do it.

Starting point is 01:02:42 We didn't have it that day. Right. The following time we come to court, my father's got the bail. The judge finds out I have the bail, and he goes, no, first he gave us a bail at $500,000 cash only, which is illegal. Next time we come to court, we said, you have to give us cash or bond or whatever. He says, okay, $500,000 bond or cash. We have it now. My father said, we have that.

Starting point is 01:03:06 The judge somehow turns around and says, okay, it's $1.5 million because we feel the case has gotten stronger since your last appearance. It's $1.5 million is your bail. My father's like, I got it. One and a half million. We got it. So the judge goes, well, the case is getting stronger every time we come to course. The bail is now $5 million cash only. And so my father's like, yo, these guys are moving to gold post.

Starting point is 01:03:33 And now I'm going to become part of this investigation. If I come up with that bail, they're going to start saying, where is he getting the money from? Right. So we're like, just lay up in there, let this thing go. It was illegal how the judge did the bail situation totally corrupt. We'll get it corrupt. But it would just take time. It would take time.

Starting point is 01:03:49 But in the end, it was better that I didn't get bailed out because all that time that I was waiting, counted as time served. I think it would have been harder for me to go in, come out on bail, and I have to go back in. That would have been very tough for me to deal with. I was already in. I had to deal with it, you know?

Starting point is 01:04:05 It's basically it's like, what are the charges? Because to me, the case is somebody owed me $25,000 and they're paying me. Should I be collecting it? Absolutely not. Should I've lent him the 12-5 and should I have done? Absolutely not.

Starting point is 01:04:20 But in the end, I'm just collecting a debt that I shouldn't be collecting. Granted, even at the 12-grant, I shouldn't have lend him the money. I shouldn't have been in this situation. But I'm not, I mean, these are, this is bail and they're acting in a way that is like, I'm not, it's not true extortion. It's not kidnapping. I'm not covering up a crime. I'm not, these are not murder charges.

Starting point is 01:04:49 Like, what is the issue? These are entrapments. Like, these aren't even charges. These aren't even crimes that I'm concocting and coming up with. They're coming to you. They're coming to me with plans they've already put in place. Right. So it's not like I could, I'm not justifying it again, but it's not like I'm committing a crime where I'm just like, yo, let's go rob this guy.

Starting point is 01:05:07 Right. We just found out about a home invasion he did. No, no, we're coming up with a home invasion he can do. Right. And he's not taking the bait. Right. Exactly. So everything I'm doing is everything, even when I am following through it,

Starting point is 01:05:18 is not things that I'm really doing. These are things that you're setting up and I shouldn't be going along with. Right. So I should be responsible. Right. But not to the extent where you're acting like I'm the mastermind behind your plan. This is your plan and you're making it seem like it was my plan. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:05:32 I'm just doing something I shouldn't be doing. But, you know, it is what it is. I'm wrong. I never go in the court and say, yeah, I didn't do anything wrong. I'm just saying is it's not what you're making it out to me. Yeah. Once again, it's you guys are saying. that I'm ripping off, you know, old people's retirement funds when the truth is I lied on a

Starting point is 01:05:48 credit card application. Totally different. See, but the perception that they're giving is that you're doing something different. And you're saying, yeah, I did something wrong. I just didn't do what you're saying. Right. Same situation then, yeah. So what happens now?

Starting point is 01:06:01 So obviously you're not getting out of bond. You're laid up in Rikers Island. And from there I went to a worst place. Rikers is the worst place I've ever been to in my life. Yeah, nobody has a good experience in Rikers. Yeah, I don't recommend going to. going, right? Don't even stop by. Listen, we even recommend,

Starting point is 01:06:18 we even interviewed, I think, was it one CO or two COs? And even they're like, it's a horrible place, bro. You know, it's odd you said, because I noticed that the COs on Rikers Island, and this is not a shot at this, I don't really care if it is a shot. But I'm just saying is these COs at Rikers Island,

Starting point is 01:06:35 when I was there, I couldn't tell if they were in the cells or out the cells. The discussions, the conversation they're having. If you don't look up, you'll think that they're, isn't this. Yeah, yeah. Because they act like the same guys that they're watching. They have almost no, the one guy we interviewed, almost no training.

Starting point is 01:06:50 Almost no training. No training. And then some of them are like they're basically, like they are guys, some of them have been gang members before. They've been in gangs. There are gang members. I was, I was blown away. I've had so many problems with corrections officers because I'm like, a monkey could do this job. And that's insulting the monkeys.

Starting point is 01:07:08 Like, I really think a monkey could do the job better. These guys are doing like the worst. Listen, we interviewed one guy. would have loved to interview with him in person, the guy I did the remote, where he was actually, one, he's bringing in drugs, but two, he's, he was pimping out the female guards. Wow. I mean, and it's, it's, listen, and when I asked him, you know, you could tell he doesn't want to, he didn't want to make it seem like, you know, you want to glorify it.

Starting point is 01:07:41 He didn't want to, he was trying to downplay it. And I went, and at one point I said, what do these female guards look like? He goes, oh, man. He tried not to laugh. He's like, come on, man, you know what they look like. He's trying to goad him into it. He's like, they, they were big girls. You know, come on, man, let's see what he's trying to get through it.

Starting point is 01:08:02 Like, let's get this over with. No, they're not, they're not, they're not J-Lo. Don't make me say it. I've seen some busted ones myself that I'm like, never. Not, might not never. I don't care how long I'm. I've been locked out. Yeah, I'm not going to happen.

Starting point is 01:08:15 But, you know, going back to this Rikers thing, I think that it's such a torturous situation. And these DAs or the system's broken through, but a lot of times they keep you in this setting so that you will cop out. It don't even matter if you did it or not anymore. Anything beats when I'm dealing with now, so they cop out.

Starting point is 01:08:32 And I felt that's what they were doing with me. They put me in Rikers. Hell. Well, a lot of these guys, I mean, the system in general, here's the problem, is that a lot of people say, I hear a lot of people like, the system's not fair.

Starting point is 01:08:45 The system's not fair. But our system is more fair than other country's systems. Like I understand what you're saying. It is a horrible system. But other country systems are, and that's probably not a good argument. Like, yeah, we're shit, but we're better than that we're at the top of the shit pile. You know what I'm saying? Right.

Starting point is 01:09:05 And I think one of the big problems is, and I don't know how you fix this. I think there maybe is a way to fix it. where, one, the government has an inexhaustible amount of funds that they can use and manpower to fight you. And if you get a public defender, they give them $25,000. That's like a federal case. Right. Let's say a state case. They give them $12,000.

Starting point is 01:09:29 Nothing, basically. Yeah, $12,000. And then they turn around, they say, well, we'll quash that $12,000 right away. because if you're billing out at $200 an hour, they got $12 grand, let's go ahead and give them 400 hours of tapes to listen to. So now at $200 an hour, you're supposed to listen to 400 hours of tape. You're supposed to drop all your other clients. Right.

Starting point is 01:09:53 Right then, you're already in the hole. So that lawyer cannot listen to 400 hours based on the 12,000 that they gave you. That's over. It's over. you're already, you're already behind the eight ball. These guys have to go into debt to represent you. So for them to survive, they become an agent of the state by saying, listen, man, you're in a bad spot.

Starting point is 01:10:18 Like I've looked at the evidence. Like, I don't, these guys can really, like, you know, I can get you a deal. If I could get you two years, if I could get you. And the truth is, they know, they know, I can't get him to two years. But if I can get him to admit or be willing to take two years. Right. He'll get in his mind two years. And when I come back to him and I say three or four or five,

Starting point is 01:10:41 he's more apt to take that. As opposed to before when I'm not taking anything. I'm going to trial. Right. I didn't do this. And then also, I've already been in Rikers for six months. And I have to get out of this. I'm ready to go.

Starting point is 01:10:53 Right. I'm ready to go to prison because prison is better than Rikers. It is. It is. It's an upgrade, believe it or not. I mean, I'm sure you know. Oh, yeah. But, yeah.

Starting point is 01:11:02 So the bizarre thing is I had an attorney. and the judge recused her took her off my case. Now I have no attorney and the judge tells me who my attorney is going to be. I was like, this can't be correct. You assigned me an attorney

Starting point is 01:11:15 that I didn't say I wanted because you wouldn't let me keep the attorney I already paid for. It was, cards were stacked. The deck was stacked. And that attorney doesn't want to give it. Does she give the money back or she not wanted?

Starting point is 01:11:26 I didn't know how friendly you were. Frankly, she loves me, I bet, but she's not giving my money back. No, no. That's not the way this works. Yeah, no. She kept my money. She was gone.

Starting point is 01:11:34 And who I'd argue? I'm in a cell. I couldn't even catch up to it. And then he assigns me an attorney. And I'm like, I told a guy like, I don't know who you are, but I'm not comfortable with you because you were assigned to me by the same judge who said I'd never get out of prison. So he was cool. Oddly enough, the guy they assigned me to is now going to be a judge. So it was like a lot of things that's not adding up.

Starting point is 01:11:58 He was a great guy, though. Good attorney. I had a good time with him, but I didn't feel I had a fair shot. And I probably did. But it's like the attorney I got Millie Dunn. It's like, she didn't have a prayer. You know what I'm saying? Like it doesn't matter whether you're a good.

Starting point is 01:12:15 I mean, she was a good attorney. Well, she was a good attorney. How'd you give him so much time? She didn't have a prayer. She had no shot. Right. If you're a murderer and you've got an amazing attorney, you're still murdered someone. You're not getting out.

Starting point is 01:12:27 Yeah, exactly. They've got the gun, that this, that. This guy was great. The attorney I had? Matthew Kluger. Awesome. 1880. He was an 18B attorney as opposed to a public, he had a private business.

Starting point is 01:12:37 Right. Excellent attorney, but there's so much you can do. And he was very honest. We spoke about things. He was like, all right, where are we going with this? What do you think? And when I went to trial, even at trial, the guy who testified, the guy who did the credit card scam, he went up there to testify, he goes up there and says, I am lying.

Starting point is 01:12:57 He says it. And when he says it, I'm like, did I just hear what he say? He said he's lying. All right. He's admitting he's lying. And my attorney was like writing down on a pad. He's either scared or he's throwing this case. He's trying to get out of this.

Starting point is 01:13:09 I'm like, he just said he's lying. Why are we still doing this? He just admitted it. Why isn't that right then a dismissal of the case? While I'm waiting for this trial to start, he's out on bail. And he commits another crime, a federal crime. He gets arrested across state lines. And it goes on the news.

Starting point is 01:13:25 It's on Channel 7. While I'm in the cells, I look up and I see the guy. And you know I'm celebrating now. Yeah, yeah. Home run. The guy who's my main telephone. main witness, he just got arrested by the feds. Nope, don't matter.

Starting point is 01:13:37 They didn't even keep them. They let him stay out again. And that's when you know, they're not going to lose this case because even when something goes wrong, they still find a way to let the guy stay out. So I kind of knew, I saw where it was headed, you know? Yeah, yeah. They're going to do anything to make sure that this,

Starting point is 01:13:53 especially because you're a police officer. Right, no, I'm the big fish. I get it. I get it. And they're not going to take into account that the guy that they're using as a witness just committed another crime, federal crime on TV.

Starting point is 01:14:04 Yeah, they'd rather drop that crime and completely let it go. I called my attorney as soon as I saw it on TV. He goes, I know. So you don't even know what I'm going to tell you. Yeah, the guy's on TV, the moves your main. I said, so what's that mean? He goes, what do you think it means? I said, I think that means I go home.

Starting point is 01:14:19 He used to keep thinking. That guy's good. They're going to get around that. And that's what they did. I was going to say, do you remember the border? This is 20 years ago, maybe 15, the Border Patrol agent that had shot at some illegal immigrants had come over the border and they got to a shootout.

Starting point is 01:14:40 Wow. So there's a shootout, but the shootout for some reason, I could be get this wrong, but for some reason the shootout, they end up killing a couple of these guys, right? The immigrants come in, the Mexicans coming over the border. One of the guys gets away. But when the forensics came in, the feds came in, they felt like something's not right. Like it looks like you guys shot at these guys, but they didn't shoot back.

Starting point is 01:15:11 Or maybe they didn't have a gun. You guys said they shot back, but we don't have bullets. Like there was a whole thing. It didn't quite make sense what's happening. And then we do have two guys that are dead, but there's no weapons. So I forget exactly what the case was. But they felt like, hey, we got two federal agents here. Their story doesn't make sense.

Starting point is 01:15:30 But there's two guys that are dead. dead. One guy got away. He went back to Mexico. We have nobody but the living people to say what happened. And it's plausible. Doesn't quite fit, but it's plausible. So that whole case goes away. It's a justified shooting, even though, well, you would think. That's what they're thinking. That's what I would think. Unless we can pin it on, unless we can find out and pin it on these guys and get a witness. Because we don't find guns. We don't have shells. So who's the guy? Yeah, the witness is the Mexican that went back. Who got away.

Starting point is 01:16:02 Maybe he picked up the weapons, which is unlikely, but whatever. So the point is is that the FBI tracks him down. This is an immigrant. They tracked down the guy who got away. In Mexico. In a little town, in the middle of fucking nowhere. And they get him. And they get him.

Starting point is 01:16:22 And they bring him back. And he says, I'm scared. I'm terrified. I don't want to stay here. And they say, we'll give you. a card that allows you to go back and forth across the border and nobody can search you because we're doing anything to protect you. Right.

Starting point is 01:16:39 Because you're our witness because he says these guys just started shooting at us. Like we didn't have guns and we were just immigrants coming over the border. They just started shooting at us. It was completely, there were no guns. Unprovoved. Yeah. And they shot these two guys. And so he's Teflon now.

Starting point is 01:16:54 He's going back for his protect. Now he's bringing drugs back and forth. Back and forth. And nobody can. search him. And for somebody at some point, realize like dogs are going nuts, whatever the reason is, they go, some agent who's like, I don't give a fuck about your little pass. I'm searching you. Searches him. He's bringing over, you know, powder over. He's got keys, whatever it is. I don't remember it. I don't remember the specifics. But he's bringing over something. They bust him. Feds come in. Release this guy. Release him. Here's your little pass. Keep going. The same thing, right? Same thing.

Starting point is 01:17:31 They just, they, he, he, so now he's going back. He's still doing it. Wow. They let him get away with murder up until the trial. Then he gets the trial, does the trial, the two agents end up losing at trial or they take a plea. I forget what it was. But anyway, they go to fucking prison. And then this guy, of course, he gets busted, you know, six months later or something.

Starting point is 01:17:52 But they're quashing every, and he gets into, this isn't just one thing. He gets multiple times. He's over here. He gets into a fight. There's a huge ordeal. There's something happens. It's another crime is committed. They catch him with more drugs, local authorities.

Starting point is 01:18:04 FBI comes in, drop all of that. Get him up. Here's your path. Keep going. Wow. Just anything to get these two agents that clearly lied. Like, whether what are he saying or not? The story doesn't make sense, but without him, we don't have anything.

Starting point is 01:18:18 So we're going to let him get away with murder as long as we can get these two agents. It's very, very similar. Right. The guy's committing crimes. They arrested him, but he's getting away with everything because they need him. It's ironic. I get to state facilities now, and the first day I get to the New York. Well, wait, what happens at the trial?

Starting point is 01:18:37 Yeah, I'm going to get to that one, but I'm just bringing up this fact about him getting over. As soon as I go upstate, the CEO buzzes my door, he says, oh, Ramos, come up here. I go up there. He's like, I got a newspaper for you. Read this. And when I get up there, it says, thanks, rat, now go to jail. They got a picture of the guy who is the main guy who told me. It says, thanks, rat, now go to jail.

Starting point is 01:19:00 was him. And I was like saying, they know that he's no good, but they needed to use him. And they say, well, thanks, Rat. Now we don't need you. Go to jail. And it just goes to say the same thing you were talking about. Listen, I got, and then I want to stop talking. I'm stop talking. Yeah. I say, remember the guy I told you that they, he got into the grand jury and lied. Right. Guy goes to the grand jury, lies. I wrote a story about this guy. This guy, so they indict, the grand jury indicts a bunch of people in that pill mill. they then that guy

Starting point is 01:19:33 saying I didn't do anything wrong he goes to trial he loses government provides all kind of evidence that's just complete bullshit they twist everything he ends up getting 19 and a half years

Starting point is 01:19:42 for for money laundering not pills not the money laundering totally separate thing for the pills totally separate it goes to jail

Starting point is 01:19:50 for the pills I think he got 19 and I think it's 19 years in six months I think Mike Rudd was just 19 but he goes to jail and the guy that

Starting point is 01:20:00 So right after this guy's sentenced, the guy that lied in front of the grand jury, which is a DEA agent, he gets indicted. They arrest him the day after. Right after it's only getting him now. Right after, because otherwise, if he had gotten arrested, he's one of the witnesses. They could bring it up at court and say, look, the guy that lied in front of the grand jury. They just arrested him for lying in front of the grand jury. So that's how you indicted my guy. His credibility is no good, man.

Starting point is 01:20:23 Right. But we don't. We wait until the day after. They then arrest him for lying in front of the grand jury and for protecting. pill mill operator. He goes to trial. They put the doctor on the stand.

Starting point is 01:20:37 He was banging the owner of the pill mill, a female, of the pill mill that he was protecting, which was a competing pill, but it's a whole thing. She's about to go on the stand the next day. That morning, he goes,

Starting point is 01:20:49 he wakes up early before court, takes a Torres. I forget the name of it. It's a revolver. Is it a revolver? Yeah. Takes it, goes into his shed, blows up. Jeez. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:21:02 You see what I'm saying? Like, it's just, and people are like, that would never happen. Like, well, you're watching too much law and order, bro. No, this is real life. This is how it really works. The main detective against me gets caught for illegal investigation. There's a detective. They ignored it.

Starting point is 01:21:18 Keeps it going. Everything he did should have been fruits of the poisonous tree type thing. Yeah. No, we'll ignore it. Keep it rolling. Get this guy. So I knew what it was. And, you know.

Starting point is 01:21:27 Let's talk about the trial because you go. They're bringing you from Rikers Island to the, or you've been moved. I've been moved from Rikers Island to the tombs. I know it. Listen, I've been doing so many of these. I know what the tombs are. I know the names of the, of course, it's famous. No, but I'm saying I've interviewed so many guys in the New York and in the metro,

Starting point is 01:21:53 that area that I'm starting to know the different types of the name of the facilities. and everything. I ended up after the tomb's another spot, but the tombs is pretty bad, too. Yeah. So I'm in Rikers, then they come in and they rearrest me. It's funny, I'm already arrested, and the detectives come to Rikers out and re-arrest me.

Starting point is 01:22:14 For what? New charges? Yeah, new charge. What's the new charge? Conspiracy. Oh, okay. I was like, what are you doing? Double jail or whatever?

Starting point is 01:22:22 Like, I'm here already, whatever. So from there, they moved me to the Tumes. Tumes is not a good place to visit either. It's not as bad as Ryeker. but the conditions are worse than Rikers for me. Because at Rikers, at least I was, had movement. I was in and out. I was interacting with other people.

Starting point is 01:22:39 Yeah. The Tumes is 23-hour lockdown. No phone calls, no visits. Mail comes 10 months after it's sent to you. Only person you're allowed to speak to is your attorney. Good luck catching the attorney. They don't answer the phone. Yeah. Abusive behavior.

Starting point is 01:22:56 The COs was horrible. It was terrible. so the tombs was like better conditions but worse than situation if that makes any sense the tomb is tough so they're taking me from the tombs to court for the trial prior to the trial I had an opportunity to do what these guys are doing tell information under the people to reduce my situation right I refuse to do that I said what do you what do you really have though you're a police officer like I have I have like I know people what they're doing in the streets I do associate with people who are not saved with characters.

Starting point is 01:23:31 I'm from that type of situation. And I do know guys who are doing things they shouldn't do, even though I might not be involved with it. I do have information on them. But that's not me. I'm not going to do it. It's not because I'm a thug. It's just not me.

Starting point is 01:23:45 And aside from that, I have to come outside when I'm home and I don't want to look over my shoulder. That's not going to happen. So anyway, I'm in the tombs. I'm dealing with a trial and a situation like that. And the longer you're in there, you're realizing that this is not going to work because even when you find a silver lining, it doesn't matter.

Starting point is 01:24:04 The courts are twisted in a way that even a way that shows you're not doing anything, they'll just overlook that. So that's what it was coming down to. So how long is your trial? A trial didn't last that long. After all, we waited almost three years to start it. It went maybe two weeks. I was going to say, and it's not like they're presenting a ton of evidence.

Starting point is 01:24:25 It's, hey, this guy let me. money. They didn't even bring that up. What they bring up? All the evidence is those crimes that they perpetuated that I took part in their crimes. They're all in the entrapment, in my opinion, is entrapment. That's what the whole trial is. All the charges are about the things they made,

Starting point is 01:24:44 like, all right, attempted criminal possession of controlled substance. Okay. There was never any drugs involved. I never attempted to possess them. This was a sting operation where they tried to say there are drugs involved and you thought you were moving drugs

Starting point is 01:24:58 that were charging you for that. Everything was, you thought this was this, but it wasn't, so you'd be in charge with it. So what is the main, what's the main one? Because we didn't talk about the main one. The top charge? Yes. What is the charge? Attempted criminal possession of a control substance.

Starting point is 01:25:14 Okay. And what is the evidence that they have on you for that? The guy, the guy was a credit card guy. He has a video camera in his car of me, going with him to pick up a van and move it from one location to another. Okay. Now, that van, we discussed it a few days before it was moved. And I tell him, I don't do drugs, I don't touch drugs, I want to do with drugs.

Starting point is 01:25:40 He goes, there's nothing in the van. There's no drugs in the van. We're just trying to show this guy that you could move the van and that you're a cop and you're willing to move the van. I said, okay, no problem. I get in this van. I look around a van and make sure there's no drugs in it. They got all this on video. I dropped the van off somewhere

Starting point is 01:25:57 and that's attempted criminal possession of control something. But there's no... No drugs are in the van. There's nothing that looks like drugs in the van. You didn't think there was drugs in the van. Didn't think there was drugs in the van. I'd go further. So now I drove a white van and did all this, right?

Starting point is 01:26:14 When we get to trial, they're talking about this van and there's no drugs. And I tell my attorney, where's the picture of the van? I want to see... Because I look through the van. and there were no drugs in it. Yeah. Show the van,

Starting point is 01:26:26 the inside of the van. He goes on the record and he says, oh, we need to see pictures of the van. You should have it. They go, okay, we'll present it. The next day,

Starting point is 01:26:34 they present the pictures of a van. The back of the van, they took a picture of it. It's a burgundy. I could tell it was a burgundy van because as you open the doors, you'll see the inside is burgundy. So I tell my attorney,

Starting point is 01:26:45 that's not the van. That's a burgundy van. He says, this is what they're saying. I'm like, well, say something. I'm writing to him. We're scribbling impactful. I said, well, say something. That's a burgundy van.

Starting point is 01:26:55 They're not giving you what you asked for. And then he goes, Your Honor, this isn't the van. And then the DA goes, well, we didn't need a picture of the van. We showed you the kind of van it was. Totally not. They didn't do their right.

Starting point is 01:27:09 You know, the investigation was done incorrectly. They should have taken pictures of everything. Right. They never did. They let that right. The pictures of the back of the van that's empty. Right.

Starting point is 01:27:17 But they didn't have those pictures. Never took them. Never proved that there was anything in the van. So I'm just saying this is just, another way of how they just circumvent when they go wrong. Yeah, we're not going to be talking about a van that we can't, we don't, we don't even know if there was a van, there's no photos graphs of the van, there's no. Right.

Starting point is 01:27:34 I'm just saying, show me what I drove, the exact van, and where these drugs were. Because I know there are no drugs in there. Yeah. The seats were taken out. It was an empty van. And I look back there, and I'm on video looking back there. They show me lifting things up. There's nothing in there.

Starting point is 01:27:48 I'm like, okay, let's go. They don't have it. And then the conversation I have with this credit. car guy, that I don't move drugs, I want to do with it, that recording never comes up. So when we get to trial, I tell my attorney, tell him to play the recording. So he brings it up and they go, oh, the recording device was not working. So it didn't, it didn't take, we didn't get to get that recording, but the device didn't work. Well, then we're not going to be talking about.

Starting point is 01:28:15 So how could we use that? Yeah, how are we talking about a recording of a conversation that we don't have? Right. They didn't talk about the recording. Okay. wanted to talk about the recording. They acknowledged the machine didn't work. So I said, all right, well, ask this guy.

Starting point is 01:28:27 He's understanding, not that he's truthful. Ask him if we had this conversation. So they said, did you ever have a conversation when he told you I don't want anything to do with drugs? And he was like, I don't know, I don't want to say. And he's like, well, did it or did it not happen? I can't recall. So he's saying that we spoke and I said, I don't want to move drugs.

Starting point is 01:28:47 And totally disregard, let it go. I shouldn't even think that was ridiculous That was the highest charge Right Right that was the worst one But you found guilty Found guilty to the top charge And then the rest was like

Starting point is 01:28:59 You want to take a plea deal You want to go through with it Yeah I was going to say Did they ever come to you with a plea deal Prior to this? They did but it was like a death sentence They offered me 30 years 25 years something like that

Starting point is 01:29:11 I'm like for that I might have just blow trial If I blow trial I wouldn't get that So it wasn't really a legitimate plea deal It's like saying do you want to take 50 years or go to trial? I might as to go to trial.

Starting point is 01:29:22 The plea deal is not. And I wouldn't have took much, I wouldn't accept it. The plea deal the most I would have took was a couple of years. Right. They were starting off at 40. Then, oh, you know, we'll work it out. We'll give you 28. Thanks.

Starting point is 01:29:34 I'm good. Yeah, I appreciate the 14-year cut, but I'm good. And then I blew trial. And since I had the judge recused, the main one, he was the worst. I had him recused. The newer judge was fair. Everything I blew trial to, he gave me the minimum instead of the maximum. He could give you the max.

Starting point is 01:29:53 He gave me the minimum on each charge that I blew trial to. How did you get the judge? Because it's really difficult to get a judge tossed. It is hard as hell. And this judge was blatantly against me. And as soon as I started trial, he was really going hard. He was like, ah, you know, the evidence is overwhelming. If you don't take the offer, you're never going to see the street again.

Starting point is 01:30:17 and he was really being like that. And I was saying like, this isn't going to be a fair trial. So I told my attorney. And he hasn't seen the evidence. He hasn't. He's just gone by what he heard and what he's been told.

Starting point is 01:30:27 So he was like the overwhelming evidence against you. I suggest you take their deal. So then when he's, I was a little smart mouth at the time. I regret that. But I was like, I suggest you get off this case. And he was like, excuse me?

Starting point is 01:30:41 I'm like, well, since you're making recommendations, like, you need to recuse yourself. So he kicks me out. He kept kicking me out the judge. out the courtroom. Every three months I come back, I'd come in, I see my kids. And when you come in,

Starting point is 01:30:53 you got like that 10 second. Yeah. Before you sit down, I made sure I see my kids and I'm like, they hadn't heard from me, seen me. So I'm like,

Starting point is 01:31:01 everything's good. Don't worry about it. You can't talk to anybody in the courtroom. And I just don't stop. I'm like, Your Honor, those are my kids. You can't talk.

Starting point is 01:31:09 I said, I'm going to do it. I'm talking to my kids every time I come in here. Get them out of here. All right, three months later, I'll come back. What did it do that?

Starting point is 01:31:17 Get them out. out of here and we keep doing this. And while he's doing that, I'm telling my attorney, like, this judge, I can't have him. And my attorney's telling me it's impossible to get a judge removed. Right. But I'm writing. I write well, pen to pad, I'm really a wizard with it. I start writing to the higher courts.

Starting point is 01:31:33 I start writing to Albany. I started. And they recused him. They got him out. My attorney was like, I don't know how you did that. I was like, yeah. And I was talking about, I recuse you too, if I have to. I get you written.

Starting point is 01:31:45 But, yeah, I got him out of there. And the judge who took over for him, he was very reasonable. He came and he introduced himself and he says, I know the history that you got a situation here. What do you want to say? I'm going to give you a chance. I said, well, thank you. I haven't seen my kids, spoke to him, visit them, none of that.

Starting point is 01:32:04 And I think it's debilitating me. And I think it's a ploy to make me cop out. And I'm not going to cop out. So then the judge was very reasonable. He's like, are your kids here now? I said, they're right there. in the first row. I said hello to them. And every time I said hello to him, they send me

Starting point is 01:32:20 back to the cell. So he looked to the guy and he says, why can't he speak to his kids and visit and this and that? And he says, oh, he's related to the cartel and Dominican Republic. I don't even know who these people are. Then he's like, he's a gang member. Another false thing. And then the judge was like, you heard

Starting point is 01:32:38 what he had to say. And my attorney was like, I'm going to let him speak for himself for this. I'm like, Your Honor, I don't know anything about a cartel. Right. I'm not a gang member. Gang members don't like me. Right. Like, where's this coming from?

Starting point is 01:32:52 And that's when he told him, you got one hour to come back from the recess with proof that he's a gang member and he's dangerous. And he couldn't. Yeah, of course. So he came back an hour later and he tried. It was pretty silly. He was like, yeah, look at this text I got on social media. This woman says the queen will always follow the king.

Starting point is 01:33:10 He's a Latin king. And the judge was like, that's your, that's it, some random text from an idiot. Yeah, from my kid's mom. And I'm like, you know, the judge was like, what else do you have? And then he was like, we have a video of him in Dominican Republic. And they show me on a vacation. Right. I get off the plane and they have recorded me.

Starting point is 01:33:30 I mean, I'm just walking with my suitcase. So then the judge looks at me and says, do you have anything to say? I say, what is there to say? I was on vacation. Right. And this woman says, I'm a king. Yeah. I said, we're all kings.

Starting point is 01:33:43 What are you doing? He was like, yeah, give him his visits, give him everything. back. So that was the first time I got everything returned to me. I could see my kids and visit. And the first visit I had with my kids was heart-wrenching. I hadn't seen my kids in years. I haven't even touched

Starting point is 01:34:00 another person in years. So for my kid to hug me, I was just like, we didn't even get the visit was all them crying, sitting in front of me crying the whole time and me just sitting there like, what can I do? You know, I haven't even touched my kids for three, almost three years and now I get to see him so we didn't even get to talk I mean I love my kids that's why like that's the way it was that's what the plan was I guess we're gonna break them yeah yeah and uh

Starting point is 01:34:27 but we're pretty solid we you know we were almost tough I guess we was just like all right we made it so we were talking again it made everything easier but that's how bad the system is so you're you're found guilty though yes shockingly I couldn't believe it but And one of the charges was a robbery, attempted robbery, and that's the one that was the only violent one. So the violent one made it, you can have a million nonviolent crowds, but all it takes is one violent one, and it makes you ineligible for, like, early release, a certain kind of board.

Starting point is 01:35:02 So my focus, as soon as I was found guilty, was like, we've got to get an appeal on this robbery. It never happened, and we'll appeal the attempted drug possession because that's the highest charge. Yeah. So what you were given what, 12 years? I think it was 14 and a half to something. Okay.

Starting point is 01:35:23 I forget what the high-end number was, but it was 14 and a half to like, who knows what. And you appealed those, what happened with the appeal? The appeal, by the way, I was represented by the Center for Appellateigation, right? And at the time, I didn't know who they were. I work for them now, by the way. Oh, okay. Yeah, so the attorney came and,

Starting point is 01:35:45 I expressed my concerns, and she thought I had very good points and stuff. And we got a reversal on the attempt at robbery, which was the only violent. And that opened a door to a merit board. Because once you don't have a violent crime, you're eligible for a merit board. And I felt very confident. And if I spoke before a board, like, I sell snow to the Eskimos. That's how I feel like. I'm going to get some rhythm from this because they're going to see.

Starting point is 01:36:15 what it is. And sure enough, I went to the merit board and they granted me the release. Instead of hitting me at the board for another two years, they said, let them go. Okay. So what do you mean? So they resentenced you? Or what is what do you mean? No, when you go to, well, the appeal led to that charge being changed. Right. Right. But doesn't that change your sentence? Don't you have to be resentenced? No. What it did was make it non-violent. It didn't change the time.

Starting point is 01:36:44 It didn't change the time. And it changed the status of your custody, right? Right. Okay. So it went from violent to nonviolent, but not the time. Okay. Time remained the same. Right.

Starting point is 01:36:54 But now if you're, if you become, when you become eligible to be released, they don't say, okay, well, yeah, but this guy's a violent criminal. Right. We're not going to give him an opportunity to be heard because he's violent. He's not eligible for a parole board release or a merit board release. So me getting to that merit board was because of the reversal of the, uh, the robbery. And that's why I said I felt confident that if I get to this board, there's no guarantee. Yeah. But I feel really confident that if I speak for myself, I'll be fine. And it

Starting point is 01:37:25 happened. Usually you don't get over on the first board. Usually they hit you for at least another 12 months, 18 months. But after that parole board, that merit board hearing, I felt really confident. I was like, if they hit me, this is really totally making no sense. when you are sent to prison, because I'm sure you sat for a little bit, like they put you in a van after a month or two or something like that, whatever. So you eventually get to a prison. What custody was the prison and what they say when you walk in the door? Like I know the COs pull you, whoever it is, the lieutenants or whatever,

Starting point is 01:38:02 I'm sure they pull you aside and say, hey, bro, like, we can't put you in general pop. You know, you know what I'm saying? Every prison I've gone to seems like they have their. a little raw, raw speech waiting for you, right? I'm sure you walk in and we're going to set the tone and we're going to scare you, and I think it's comical, right? I'm not going to be scared. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:38:19 But it is funny that you're going to try it. So I get sent to Clinton Correctional Facility, which is where the escape happened, by the way. So I get there, I'm in protective custody. I don't want to be in protective custody because as soon as I get convicted, my main objective is how do I get out? You know, and I know I need certain programs to complete. so that I'll be eligible when the day comes

Starting point is 01:38:42 that they cannot say to me, well, you didn't complete everything you needed to do to get released. I was on the shoe the whole time. Yeah. Well, I can't do any programs because I'm in this, you know, protective custody unit.

Starting point is 01:38:54 So I'm begging to get me out of protective custody at Clinton, and the counselors there are like, you don't want to go in the general population. People know who you are. They will cut you, stab, you, kill you. Whatever. And I'm like, nah, we got to go.

Starting point is 01:39:07 I got to try it, you know. But before I even get to that, port every facility you go to they give you the rah-rah speech right getting there the guy was like pulling me to the side yeah we know who you are if you ever give us any trouble we're going to do this to you we're going to do that the regular boost the boogeyman routine and I'm like yeah yeah yeah whatever is that it oh you think this is a joke I'm like yeah I do let's go like let's go so they put me in this APPU unit where everybody in there is famous I've seen people on TV in this APPU unit and I'm like, I got to get out of here because there's no programming.

Starting point is 01:39:43 Finally, after a long time of labor and lobbying for a general population, they say, okay, we're going to send you general population. Whatever happens, you ask for it. And they send me from Clinton Correctional Facility. I was there for the escape. Afterwards, they sent me to Green Haven Correctional Facility. Horrible. And sure enough, as soon as I got there,

Starting point is 01:40:09 same thing. You're going to be in protective custody. I'm fighting it again. So they put me in this IPC, which is involuntary protective custody. You're in there with guys who are gang members who were just attacked and making them stay there for their own protection. But also it's like putting the fox and the chicken coop. These gang members think that everyone who's in that unit, who isn't a gang member, signed in to be in protective custody. But I didn't sign in. I was forced into it. So they think everybody in there is a snitch Or a child molester or something

Starting point is 01:40:43 Soft You signed in You're a victim mentality I'm far from the victim right But I'm just like I'm not running around with letting my nuts hang I'm just like all right I'm here

Starting point is 01:40:53 And sure enough It was only a matter of time I saw it coming I play sports I play basketball I get out there I play dominoes I do everything Gang members starts playing basketball

Starting point is 01:41:04 I start talking trash We get into it and that's it like this is it I know it I'm like I sensed it me and this guy are gonna have a problem so the first day we get into playing basketball and he says something to me

Starting point is 01:41:17 I say something to him he tells me he's this gang I was like I don't give a fuck about that what I'm from Brooklyn I don't care about that anything you say I don't care about none of that and I'm pretty slick with the mouth so he's feeling bad because everybody's laughing at the things I'm saying I'm not even being funny I'm just

Starting point is 01:41:32 I really don't care and when I sense we're gonna have problem. I get on the phone, talk to my daughter, and I tell her, it's going to be 45 days or so until you hear from me, but don't panic. Like, everything's going to be all right. She's like, what do you mean? I said, I'm going to need 45 days. I'm taking a little break. Because I know that when I get off this phone, it's like, it's going to go well, right? So I tell my daughter, don't panic. Don't worry. I'll call you, give me like 45 days. Everything's fine. I get off the phone, I go inside, and sure enough, I have to do it. I have to do it. I have to do it. I'll call you. I'll call you. I have to

Starting point is 01:42:06 what I got to do, but it works out for me in the end. Everything works out because even when me and this guy have this fight, they empty the cans and mace on me, all of that stuff. I go to the box. It's funny because everybody knows who I am before I get up there. Right. And they know why I'm up there because I just fought a gang member. And whether I liked it or not, my credibility skyrocketing and not even wanted to.

Starting point is 01:42:31 I just didn't want to be bothered. But since that moment on, you don't want to fight. with me because losing to me is not a good look. I'm a cop. In your eyes, I'm still a cop. How you let a cop beat you up and you're a gang member and stuff. So sure not, 45 days later

Starting point is 01:42:49 I hear from my daughter. She was like, this is what you do? Dad, you come in here? She's reprimanding me. This is what it is? We're waiting for you and you over here fighting with people. Now, what are you doing? That's so irresponsible. And I'm like, time out. Like, identity check. I'm your father. You're not my mother.

Starting point is 01:43:08 Shut up. This is what happened. The guy is trying to start a problem. She's like, you got to walk away. It made much harder if I walked away. I said walking away, then you might as well just start handing over everything you got. Like, that's not how it works in here. And I think that was a wake-up call for my kids.

Starting point is 01:43:22 They were like, dad's aggressive at times. But if he's not, you become a victim. You know, if you let something happen once, you're setting the precedent for it to happen again. So that was the first turning point for me, being sent to the box, horrible situation, but it got me out of that facility and it changed my whole bid. And I regret that I had to go through it,

Starting point is 01:43:46 but then again, I'm so glad it happened, you know. taught me a lot. So when were you, at what point were you released, right? Like... From the box or from prison? No, from prison. Oh, after the merit board hearing, I was at another facility. How long was, oh, okay.

Starting point is 01:44:03 Yeah, towards the end. Sorry, yeah, so that didn't come up until the very, It takes that long for you to get that hearing. The appeal process takes a long time. Then after the appeal process, you're eligible for that merit board hearing. And what, so at what point did you have the merit board hearing? The merit board hearing was right before I was released. Like, how many years?

Starting point is 01:44:23 Five years. Oh, to get to the merit board hearing. Yeah, yeah. From time you were locked up. Three years to get to, from Rikers to the state. And then I'd say about five and a half years to get to that merit board. So how long were you locked up, total. 10, about 10, a little over 10.

Starting point is 01:44:39 How long before you went to trial? Three years before I even got to trial. This is no one-stop shopping, man. Like, we're going to go through the whole, they're going to push that to the end. So I dragged it out, they dragged out three years. I did that. Then I go to trial, I blow trial. They moved me upstate.

Starting point is 01:45:00 Lights are out. They're not thinking about me for a long time. The appeal came, the reversal came, and, that's when everything started moving. All right. Well, now the appeal came. I'm eligible for the merit board. Here we go. Okay. And then you get, do you go to a halfway house? No, no. I had a place to go. So luckily for me, I didn't have any restrictions. Like, certain crimes have certain restrictions. I don't have it. Like, I don't have any crimes that restrict me from being anywhere. I can go anywhere. So, uh... Well, in the federal system, you go to a halfway house. Like, like, like,

Starting point is 01:45:28 really? Well, because even if you say, hey, I have, even if you're lucky and by the time you get to the halfway house, they've already gone to your home and they've approved it, you're still going to go to the halfway house for a few, I mean, the fastest I've ever seen it happen is a few weeks. Really? Like, because they have to, I don't know what, to be honest, it's just bureaucracy. They could do it the same day. You could get there. They could put an ankle monitor on you and send you home.

Starting point is 01:45:55 It's already been approved, but still they'll drag you. Sometimes, and the counselors in the halfway houses are such douchbags. They're like, oh, well, we don't want to put the ankle monitor on you and send you home until you have a job or we don't and you'll be like I'm 67 years old I'm retired and they're like well we need to make sure that when you have to get your first social security check it's like you're just making shit up now you're just looking for an excuse right because you don't want to do your job it's easier to say go sleep over there than it is to fill up the paperwork get it approved by whoever but so it's usually it's a few weeks that's federal it's federal so that's why I'm saying

Starting point is 01:46:30 most people go to a halfway house for at least a few weeks and then they're go home and I've seen them drag it for you know my my wife was it was like four months four or five months before and she her house had been approved still took four months before they put the ankle monitor on her and let her go home really so I'm I'm blessed and I didn't have the federal thing no you're like you went straight yeah I went straight I found my cousin said I could take her apartment they went and inspected it and as soon as I got released that's where I was going did you have an ankle monitor no no ankle monitor they really tried Man.

Starting point is 01:47:08 What about did you get a job right away? And how did that, how is that process? Yeah, the job situation, I took any job I can get to start with. But there were so many restrictions from the parole officer. It depends. Some parole officers are very lax. Others are very strict. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:47:25 So the one I had initially, it was like, you know, you have a curfew. I'm a curfew. How am I? Like, I found a night job. But you give me a curfew. Yeah. So I was working overnight somewhere and I was supposed to have a curfew. But she's never around while I'm working, so she didn't even know I was working an overnight job.

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Starting point is 01:48:58 And I work two jobs. So after a while, I just started doing what I was doing. And this lady they transferred me to was really cool. She would tell me the day she's going to come visit. She would tell me what time she's going to be there. And she wouldn't even come and inspect. It was like, stick your head out the window. Say, hello, I'm out.

Starting point is 01:49:14 See you in a month. And while I had her, I was able to find different jobs. You know, I didn't even know you're not supposed to have a driver's license. Why, I don't know. Oh, that's crazy. Yeah. I got a driver's license in federal prison. Wow.

Starting point is 01:49:27 So when I left, they have my driver. I have, I get handed my driver's license. Oh, you can't do that with Department of Corrections State. So I didn't realize this. I went to DMV. I passed the road test. I did all of that. So to travel out of New York, you have to get approved by the Department of Correct.

Starting point is 01:49:45 I went to visit my dad in Texas. They made a big stink about it and everything. But after a while, every parole officer I got was less and less concerned with me because they saw. I was working two jobs and I was busy. So they terminated my parole early. The guy was like, you've been doing really good. I got good news for you. Come in.

Starting point is 01:50:05 I come in and there, he goes, I got good news for you today. I was like, what's up? He goes, you don't have to, you don't have a curfew anymore. I said, curfew. I've been working overnight ships. I never followed the curfew. Right. He was like, you're supposed to have a curfew this time.

Starting point is 01:50:21 I said, all right, I've been working overnight. He goes, well, now you can drive. I said, I drove here. Right. You're not supposed to have a driver's license. I said, I drive for a living. This is what I do. It was like, all right, forget it.

Starting point is 01:50:32 Now you can travel. I said, I just came back from Texas. Like, I've been doing everything wrong with parole. And you're, I'm good. So he's like, well, you're released for real now. I've been released from parole. Before you even released me, I was doing everything. So I was a blessing.

Starting point is 01:50:46 They technically, I'm not on parole, but I wasn't on parole even when I was on parole. Right. I think that's more for the guys who are really still delving into that lifestyle that they're still doing. so they have to babysit on me. They didn't even keep up with me anymore. Right.

Starting point is 01:50:59 So it was a blessing. I think most of those laws are those rules are designed to get people, to have leverage over people that they think are committing crimes. Because most of the time, if you do something and then they find out, they say, hey, you're not supposed to do that. You go, my bad, I didn't know that. They're not going to violate you. Right, right.

Starting point is 01:51:17 Now, if they think you did that, and I think you're moving drugs, I'm going to violate you. Because they have the power to, but they're not going to do it just to violate you. be dicks. You know, I think that the parole board in general, and this is just speculation, they let people go who they think they're going to come right back. Like, I've seen people

Starting point is 01:51:35 who should be released, like they're doing the right thing, and they hit them at the board. And I've seen guys who are still fighting in the box or doing all type of nonsense in the prison system, and they give him parole. And I feel like they already know this guy's going to violate anyway, and he'll be back. And that keeps

Starting point is 01:51:51 jobs. I don't know. That's just me speculating, but... Job security. Yeah, Job security, like we always have somebody. It's like a funeral problem. We always going to have business, right? We keep letting these guys out. We always have business. They're coming right back.

Starting point is 01:52:03 That's the first thing they mention when someone's arrested. This guy's on parole. This guy's on parole. He's a former convict. So, you know, I think that's how they work. I could be wrong, though. So how much probation did you do before you were released? I think I did two years of probation.

Starting point is 01:52:20 Supervised, whatever they call it. Yeah, well, in federal, it's supervised release. Okay, it might be something similar to that, not that it were. But I did two years of that, and one year of it, I probably wasn't even paying attention to what I was supposed to be doing. They would tell me when they were coming, I'd show up. I refuse to take drug tests, because once you take a drug test, it opens the door, do you have to keep taking drug tests?

Starting point is 01:52:39 Right. And as I said, one of my charges was attempted criminal possession, but since I've never touched drugs, I'm like, I argued that. Why would I be taking classes, going to these narcotics, what's it, narcotics anonymous, they were trying to get me to go to that initially. I'm like, that would be stupid. I've never used drugs. How could I sit in one of these meetings?

Starting point is 01:53:01 I know they start off with my name is Sol Sol, I'm a narcotic or whatever. I couldn't even do that. I never used to, I never even smoked a cigarette. So they dropped that part. And it was easy. Parole was a walk, cakewalk. What are you doing now for a living? Oh, wow.

Starting point is 01:53:17 Now I'm working for the Center for Appellate Litigation, the same firm that represented me on a piece. And I also have a night job in Connecticut. I moved to Connecticut, the board a house of Connecticut, and I do a, like, a media distribution thing where I send New York Post, the alien, stuff like that, to all the businesses, corporations that are overnight, like gas stations, supermarkets, stuff like that. But I'm looking to expand, do something else.

Starting point is 01:53:42 I'm always looking to get into a starter nonprofit that I've set the foundation on. I just have to get that rolling. And, yeah, the Center for Appellate Litigation is a blood. blessing. I went there after the release to thank the person who helped me, ask her to go to lunch, you know, and she told me, oh, they want to speak to you when you get here. I said, okay, I got there and it was an interview for a job. And they were like, well, you know, we have a better days program, and we knew that while you were in there, you were helping your own appeal. Like, you really knew what you were doing, so we're doing an interview. And I was really like, like, wow.

Starting point is 01:54:18 So I did the interview, and they were like, you know, the interview. you went well and the lady says well why would we hire you as opposed to a college graduate coming in you said i'm not here for an interview yeah i wasn't even there for that and i said so but then i think this is what made the interview so well as i told the person who asked a question i said if you're asking me to help people who are incarcerated i do this for free you don't have to hire me i'll come here for free every day i'll come here for free and you can hire one of the college kids you want and the lady looked at the other and says how do we not hire him he's he's he's he's he's passionate about what he's willing to do.

Starting point is 01:54:54 Right. I said, yeah, I'll do this for free. So the lady was just like, wow, you know, we've asked so many questions. Do you have any questions for us? And I go, yeah, why are we still doing interviews? I just told you I'll take it. Right. They laughed about it, but it was like, it's been a home run ever since.

Starting point is 01:55:10 They helped me buy a house. Like, I take a two and a half hour commute back and forth to this office every day because I'm in, yeah. It's a long hike. Two and a half hours to get to the office, two and a half hour. hours to get back home. But it's not a job for me. It's a job. They pay me well.

Starting point is 01:55:28 I'll take that. But it's something I'm passionate about. I like the job. It's not a job where I'm like, I dread going back to work. I look forward to going back to work. And I've never had a job where I'm, like, excited to go back to work.

Starting point is 01:55:42 Do you drive that two and a half hours? I drive an hour and a half to get to the Bronx. I parked my car and catch the five train, which is another hour back to the Wall Street. but sometimes I spoil myself and I'll drive an hour to another part of Connecticut and catch the metro north

Starting point is 01:55:59 which then takes an hour and a half to get to New York and I take the train there so it's always two and a half hours either way both ways yeah it's tough but are you able to work while you're on the commute? No I'm barely awake I'm barely away I'm usually comitose when I get on the metro north

Starting point is 01:56:18 I was thinking John Grisham worked as a lawyer and his first book he wrote taking the whatever subway he had to take a subway for like 30 minutes or 45 minutes forget what the commute was he was like but it gave me a time like and that's what he said during that period of time

Starting point is 01:56:36 on the train that's when I wrote a time to kill I love that movie you know that's my favorite movie it's a great movie it was a great book I heard the book is better than the movie the book's always better than the movie very seldom I can't do it very seldom have I ever watched a

Starting point is 01:56:52 watched a movie where I'd read the book and thought the movie was as good. I've never seen one that was better, but there have been somewhere the, the way they, what am I saying, converted it to a movie, there's actually a term for it. But the book being converted into a movie where it's like, wow, it's just as good. And there's only two, there's only two. One is catch me if you can. I heard of that. I didn't see it. Only because, and both of these are very, very short books.

Starting point is 01:57:25 A book is 200 pages. Well, I could do that. And the other one is Fight Club, which is only 200 pages. And the book is almost identical to the movie. And that's the whole thing. If it's a very short book, they can almost convert it perfectly to the actual, to the movie. If it's 300, 400, 400 pages, like, they have to remove more than half the book. Right.

Starting point is 01:57:48 You're disappointed and you, and it sucks, and the character doesn't look the same, and they don't think the same way, and they don't, you don't get to hear what they're thinking in their head, you know, but it's just always a whole thing. I mean, I've never read a book and watch a movie. Like, once I watch a movie, I don't need to need to read a book. I know that sounds corny, but. Well, probably the only reason I know this is because I used to listen to books on tape. And then when I was incarcerated, I read a bunch. So I'd read the book, and I'd go see the movie or it'd come on the institutional movie channel. I'd be like, this is whole.

Starting point is 01:58:18 Horrible. Horrible. I got to be honest. If I had not been for prison, I probably wouldn't have got back to reading. Oh, really? Prison made me read more. Prison made me do a lot of things.

Starting point is 01:58:29 Made me pray. And I thank God that I did. But I'm like, when you have nothing to do, you start becoming creative. You stop counting the tiles in the cell. You're ready to start reading and doing things working out. I never exercised so much in my life either.

Starting point is 01:58:42 Yeah. I think prison is very similar to the military. I don't know if you did both. No, but there were lots of militaries an entire military unit that had like 130 guys in it, 140 guys, and all of them were like, this is very similar to the military. It's eerily similar. Only difference that I was getting paid in the military.

Starting point is 01:59:01 Yeah. But prison, very similar. I was like, this is, this is, I've been here before. I've been here. This is very similar to what I've experienced. So. Yeah, my buddy Pete was in charge of the, or the head or orderly in the military unit. And when they would have groups of senators would come.

Starting point is 01:59:18 and they tore the prison, and they'd always tour the military unit because it was super clean, and he would actually take them through the, he had a whole skit and program. And here's what's funny about Pete. Listen. Pete, if you listen to him,

Starting point is 01:59:38 makes it seem like, if you listen to him, you think he went in the Navy. He was a cryptologist or whatever, took the classes. you would think he was on a sub and that he got injured and left the military,

Starting point is 01:59:55 left the Navy. That's how it said. Because he says it in such a way that you, that's what you're creating in your head. Because everything he says is true. Right. Everything he says is true. Well, I was assigned to such and such sub,

Starting point is 02:00:09 such as I took the crypto. So all these things you're already putting it together. And then after, you know, after a year and a half or after two years of service, you know, I was injured. and I had to leave the, you know, I got an honorable discharge and such a, oh, okay, that makes it. And so you think, well, and it's all true. It's all the same.

Starting point is 02:00:28 But here's the actual, this is the difference between hearing someone explain something. We're seeing it. Well, and knowing what really happened. Right, right. We always joke around that it's true but misleading. It's true, but misleading. The truth is, Pete went into the middle. military or into the Navy. He did got super high scores. He's brilliant. He did the crypto.

Starting point is 02:00:57 No, he did go into the cryptology, whatever, which is, you know, it's code breaking. Right. He's just off the chart smart. Goes into the crypto. While he's taking those classes, he's a, he's an 18 year old skinny kid. He hurts his knee skateboarding. They send him to get to the doctor to get knee surgery. He gets a knee surgery. He's told, and so he has to stay home for like six months. Okay. He goes home for six months.

Starting point is 02:01:32 Do not skateboard, do not walk. He's walking on crutches. Six months goes by. He's close to the six month. Don't ever skateboard again. He goes back to active duty. He starts skateboarding. He hurts his knee again.

Starting point is 02:01:46 They want to give him another surgery. he's so smart. They're saying, bro, let us do the surgery again and wait another six months so we can put you back into the crypto. And he had been assigned to a sub. So he does say, I was assigned to this submarine. So you think he served time. He's never walked on the submarine. So, but he was assigned there. He's assigned there, but he's never been there. So we, and so by the time it's all done, it's been a couple years. And he won't, he won't do the surgery again. He's like, I'm not doing the surgery. I'm not going to be on crutches for six more months. I'm not doing it. And so they release him. So it's been, so you did serve about 18 months to two years.

Starting point is 02:02:24 You were assigned to a subject. You did get injured, but you're skateboarding. This is, you would think he was in some kind of a, it was the hunt for Red October. Combat unit. It was a Marine. He stormed the beach. Something. No, he's a skateboarder. No. You twisted your knee skateboarding. But he sounds a good story. He's got to believe in it. He's like, everything I said is true. And I'm like, it's misleading. He's like, oh, that's, that's.

Starting point is 02:02:52 That's on you to figure that out. That's your problem. That you put that together thinking that. That's not what I said. What I said was. And this is what happened. But he's right. He was, he's assigned there.

Starting point is 02:03:01 Listen, when he got done taking these tours through the unit and they came back, these senators are shaking his hand. Thank you for your service. Yeah. Good skateboarding. You skateboarding well. They don't even know that this guy. Wow.

Starting point is 02:03:13 He's good, though. He's amazing. He is good. I would have believed it. Yeah. You believed it. Oh, he had me going for a while. So I started asking, I started getting specifics and he's...

Starting point is 02:03:23 Oh, you're starting to get too much into it. Because, you know, I'm a... Well, what happened with this? Well, how did you injure yours? Well, I really don't like to talk about it. Well, let's talk about it. Humor me with specifics. Yeah, you know, I would have thanked him for his service.

Starting point is 02:03:35 He got me... He had me at Hello. I was like, wow, I'm impressed. And he never even went on this up. Wow. He said, you've never stepped foot on a submarine. Hey, hey, hey, watch it. That's enough of that.

Starting point is 02:03:46 Yeah, watch it. I got a skateboard. to go do. That's good. That's pretty slick. Perceptions, everything. So you're now doing this job. Yeah. Think about the, are you, what would this, what would this nonprofit be? What would it?

Starting point is 02:04:04 Oh, the nonprofit is basically an organization that's geared towards helping people who are incarcerated men and women. And I realized that during my time, I didn't have a chance to connect to my children or my loved ones. So a lot of guys, when they come out, they're pretty definitely. They haven't been in touch with anyone, and it leads to recidivism, it leads to desperation. This will give you an opportunity so that you're in society before you get back to society. You're more in touch with what's going on.

Starting point is 02:04:31 You're more prepared. It offers you training. I want to give people an opportunity that when they are released, they're not just thrown out into the woods and say, find your way. That's what usually leads to recidivism. Yeah. They can't get a job. Can't get a job. Right.

Starting point is 02:04:44 You can't get a job. You're frustrated. And after a few weeks, what do you do? You turn to what you know. Right. And this is all you know. Here's how I know I can make some money. Right.

Starting point is 02:04:52 And besides that, it's hard for you to deal with your family. If you have children, they lose respect for you. And you're coming out thinking that you have this respect already, I'm your dad. Yeah. But the kid is like, I ain't seen you in 10 years or whatever. Yeah. And who knows, sometimes the mothers have led the kids to believe certain things. I know that firsthand.

Starting point is 02:05:10 So when you go to see your child, you think you have respect due to you and the child doesn't have it. But if you had been in touch. with them all along, you would have a better rapport with them. I have different programs I want to put in place, like a read-along program where I send the kid the book and the father or mother a book. They read it together so that when they speak on the phone, you know how these conversations go. You get on the phone.

Starting point is 02:05:31 There's not much to talk about. And you don't want to talk about prison and they don't want to talk about prison. So now you have a book that you read or I'll be setting up trips for these families and friends of the incarcerated person who send photos of it. They can feel like they're partially responsible. for what's going on. Because you lose sight of, you lose contact with everything

Starting point is 02:05:49 out of sight, out of mind. This will give you a chance to stay in the loop. And then when you are released, we could transition a lot smoother. I found the hardest thing to do was transition coming back. Like my son and my daughter,

Starting point is 02:06:02 I have outside of my first marriage, they didn't know me. And what they did know of me was what their mother told him, and she was bitter. So she gave him her spiel. And actually, you know, I see this kid. I'm like, how are you doing?

Starting point is 02:06:15 You know what? What's up? Like, my children don't talk to me like this. Right. These do because I have no connection to them, as opposed to my older children who have been in touch with me the whole time when I came out. They know your character. They know me.

Starting point is 02:06:28 But these two that I, Brandon and Gabriella, my children from outside of my marriage, I mean, it's hard. I could love them, but they don't know me. And they're not going to give me a chance to get to know them because they have already had this thing put in their mind to who I am. So I can, I've been trying. But at the end of the day, had I had this opportunity while I was incarcerated, it would be a whole different situation. So that's, I'm just looking to reduce recidivism and also open the door to building relations, making guys more humanized.

Starting point is 02:07:00 You know, they're desensitized. Yeah. Right. Sorry. And when you're in prison because you're out of touch with everything. So when you come out, you're doing the same things you did in prison because you haven't had a chance to interact with public or your family or people like that. Yeah, I was going to say, Colby and I talked about, mentioned this the other day, some of these guys, it's like they still behave like they're in prison.

Starting point is 02:07:22 It's like, what are you doing? You can't, those things don't matter anymore. Those things like, like- Nobody cares about your seat and this is where you sit. Right, right. It's like, stop it. No one cares. There was a gentleman who came to a Center for Appellategation.

Starting point is 02:07:35 He had just been released. And they introduced me to him. They were like, oh, Jose, this guy just got released. Could you introduce? So I said, sure. I go to see him. I go to shake his hand. He gives me the greeting they give each other in the yard.

Starting point is 02:07:48 He grabs me, hugs me. I'm like, wait a minute. We're not in the yard anymore. You have to realize where you're at. Like read the room. There's no need to keep doing this and talking that way. So it's hard. Guys go in a prison at a young age, they become, you know, they're very impressionable.

Starting point is 02:08:07 Well, I'm shocked that you say that. You mentioned the family thing. because on the Bureau of Prisons website, it says that one of the things that they do is they focus on keeping families together and having them visit and communicate. And they, you know how many times I've heard? People are like, yeah, but on the,

Starting point is 02:08:26 they say that they do, are you insane? There's no, it's terrible. Care at all. Matter of fact, that's how they try and hurt you. Right. That's the whole, that's the character. That's the character that they're waving at you. And as a matter of fact,

Starting point is 02:08:37 people go to visit you in prison. It's traumatizing to the visitor. Oh, it's their. They treat them like garbage. I remember my daughter used to give these guards hell. She'd be like, I'm not in prison. You ain't talking to me like this. And I used to sit there like, you know, Nicole, chill out.

Starting point is 02:08:52 No, I'm not in prison. And I was like, wow, she's right. Yeah, she's right. But then they'll, but they have 100% power. Yeah. And they'll take it away from you. Well, she'll leave and I'll be stuck with them. But, you know, I wanted to make the whole visiting situation less traumatic.

Starting point is 02:09:07 It's nothing positive about prison, but I'll make it as bearable as possible. possible for the guys who will be inspired to do better as far as conducting themselves in a better way because they have something look forward to. Oh, wait a minute. This program is bringing my kids up here for a visit, but if I keep getting in trouble, they won't. I'm trying to give you a reason to do better. If you knew better, you'd probably do a lot better. Now this is giving you, you know I'm bringing your child up to see you. We're going to buy your kid a birthday gift from you. We're going to do things that you're, we're going to fill in the void until you get out. And then when you get out, we're going to have things for you to,

Starting point is 02:09:43 you know, move forward on. Yeah. That's, yeah. I was going to say. I will say the Center for Appellate litigation that I'm at, they are phenomenal. They do things like have a monthly meeting just to have a meal with the guys who've been released. Try and keep them in a situation where they feel they're not alone, and that's really important. Well, it's funny because the psychology between behind being releases, I think it's like understudied. It's under understood. And it's kind of like when Obama released did like his first wave of, of commutations. Right. He was just releasing the guys. And so you've got guys who have been in the pin for 20 years and you release them. And then two months later, they're coming back.

Starting point is 02:10:29 Yeah. And they're like, I don't understand. Well, a lot of, half these guys are coming back within six months what's going on and then they realize wait a minute you still have to civilize these people they're no longer civilized you can't release this this wild animal into the fucking public you gotta prep yeah and so then the next

Starting point is 02:10:47 wave he said they said listen you're in a pin you have to go do six months in the medium and then you go into the low and you have to go through the RDAP program you know the residential drug treatment and you have to go spend six months in a half

Starting point is 02:11:03 Wayhouse. And, you know, no matter what the guy did, it's like you can do the next, you can do the next 30 years in prison or you can take this step down approach. Step down is right. And so it's like, you know, a lot of guys say, man, I shouldn't even be here. Doesn't matter. This is the way it is because if we release you doing this, you'll go right back to crime because nobody wants to hire you, bro. You just did 20 years in the, in prison. And even at the job interview, you're, you know, you know what killed me? A good example. When I first got locked up, I had a guy. tell me, Fox, come here, let me talk you.

Starting point is 02:11:36 I'm like, yeah, what's up? And he goes, like, stop saying, like, please and thank you all the time. Oh, my God. You're soft. It makes you sound so fucking soft. Yeah, you are. Yeah, you're soft, yeah, because you're saying that. It's like, I'm civilized.

Starting point is 02:11:49 Like, what are you talking about? This bizarre world. Right. But what it is is, the way you're, when I'd say, excuse me, hey, do you mind if I can, can I get some, some, wait, what was it, Splenda? Can I get too Splenda? Yeah, yeah. I'll pay you back.

Starting point is 02:12:03 Man, I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. You're sweet, man. You say that you're sweet. You might as well be wearing a dress. Yeah, you are sweet. Right. So now what it turned into was, was, you know, bro, let me get some sweetener.

Starting point is 02:12:14 Let me give us some sweetener. Yeah, you're an animal too now. Right, right. Now I'm just like, because for me to get it without being convinced, now I'm a victim. Without being a victim, I have to now start behaving like an animal. Yo, bro, let me get a scoop of coffee. Let me get a scoop of coffee. Like, what the fuck is your problem?

Starting point is 02:12:29 And then when I get it, I got you, bro. I got you. Yeah, you know. And I had the same. What happens when you get out of prison? You're acting like I'm still doing that. Right. But when I can't, I never compromised who I was.

Starting point is 02:12:39 So the words like, please and thank you, guys looked at me like, this guy is so awful. And I'm like, nothing sweet over here, but I'll say, excuse me. But then it was like, no, pardon self. Some of these phrases are just plain ridiculous. Pardon self instead of saying, excuse me, or pardon me. I didn't know what part and self was. I don't even know what that is. To me, my bad, bro.

Starting point is 02:13:01 Oh, my bad. And I started throwing some bass in my voice, you know what I'm saying? You're a real thug down. You're thugged out. I was almost scared of my voice. I was almost scared. So, like, the guys were saying, saying, please, or thank you. That's just soft.

Starting point is 02:13:16 Yeah. So, and then another thing is everything you said is ends what you heard, right? Oh, God. So I was over here, you heard. And I'm like, why you said you heard? I'm right in front of you. Don't do that, bro. I'm like, you just said you heard.

Starting point is 02:13:30 You said you heard last time. Stop saying you. heard. I heard already. And it became like, it was bizarre. I just stopped, stop smiling. Listen, by the time I got to the low, you stop smiling. Oh, yeah, I stopped smiling at all. All I did was laughing. I laughed at first. Yeah, but I'm also not six foot tall, but, and an athlete, by the way, I'm five foot six and I'm a, I'm a soft white guy. I might as well be wearing a dress. Yeah, you're sweet. I'm afraid they're going to shave my head to the mop wig fixed correctly. You're singing and dancing for people. Right. So, but I did three years than the medium. By the

Starting point is 02:13:59 time I hit the low, I'm not smiling anymore. I'm throwing bass in my voice, everything. And I remember after a couple years, like one time I was walking and some guy walked by. He's like, he said, what's up, Cox? And I go, I can't call it. And he stopped me. And he goes, listen, man, I know you're trying to fit in. You're not like that. You just, you say, it's worse when you try.

Starting point is 02:14:20 Yeah, yeah, you're doing too much. You're trying to. And I'm the opposite. I never, I pulled that off. He's like, no, you didn't. Yeah, you didn't pull that up. And I never pulled it off. I never tried to fit in.

Starting point is 02:14:30 So guys just always look at me like, we give up on this guy like stop and like you heard no it didn't hurt oh he's back at it again like I can't help it you know so guys have like 14 or 15 different names oh yeah yo who am I speaking to

Starting point is 02:14:46 you're talking to king son or aka this and that and I'd be like oh my bad I'm just Jose I don't have none of these names mine was Cox I tried to push I tried to push chainsaw you try to push chainsaw you're no chainsaw I wanted I know that's what I heard I barely I can't

Starting point is 02:15:01 I have people in the comment section that would be like, yo, chainsaw, what's because they heard me tell this story? Oh, my goodness. And I tried to push you. But, I mean, I, guys, you know, they say, yo, what do they call you? They call me chainsaw. And they go, let, listen, man. I'm not doing that.

Starting point is 02:15:14 I'm sorry. I'm trying to think of a name for you. I'm going to go with Buzz. I'll go with Buzz. It just always ended up, it always ended up with Cox. Cox is easy. That's just what it was. But Cox is kind of AEO, too.

Starting point is 02:15:24 I don't like about that. That's the way it was. But that chainsaw. Chainsall, they'd be like, chainsaw. You saw this was for a dangerous person, Cox. Yeah, you know, I got to go with buzz or something like your hair cut. I don't know.

Starting point is 02:15:36 I'm not doing a change. But I didn't have a nickname in there. They called me Robocop in the beginning. I'm like, I'm not doing that. A training day. I'm like, I'm not doing that either. So it was funny. But, yeah, I mean, so many interactions with guys in prison.

Starting point is 02:15:51 And I'm like, this is bizarre a world. You guys are living the opposite of what's going to happen when you leave. So why not learn how to live before you get out of here? That's another reason. The organization is going to make you realize what you're coming out to. No one cares about the phone. I can't get on it. I'm sick of the phone already.

Starting point is 02:16:07 But in prison, the phone was very important. Yeah. Where you sit, this is my seat. It's not like that in society. So it's just in general. It's a different mindset, you know. I was telling us. They really need a step-down program.

Starting point is 02:16:18 They need to. And some of these guys, they just, they can't. They're already built in that this is how it is. I have a guy that is, that I play, he's a really good handball play. He hated me, right? I'm just going to tell you real quick. This guy. hated me. He could play handball and I'm an athlete. So I go out there one day and I knew he didn't

Starting point is 02:16:34 like me, but I didn't care. I always just like never change. So I had next to play handball, right? And I have next and he was there. He's really good. So I said, I got next. You want to play? But I didn't do the, yo bro. You know what I'm saying? You heard? I'm like, I got next. Do you want to play? I look like a, I must look like a bitch to him when I said that. He's like, do I want to play? So I'm like, you want to play? I got next. So he was like, no, I got next. No, I got next. I'm not getting off the court.

Starting point is 02:17:04 And this is like a big thing. So finally he goes, man, I got beef with you for life. And I just thought it was funny. That long. Right. So I said, it's just natural for me to respond. I said, life. That's a long time, bro.

Starting point is 02:17:17 Like, we got problems for that long. He's like, man, for life, I'll never want to speak to you to this. So, you know, he didn't want to talk to me. So after that, we go back to the housing unit and he happens to be there. And I know I shouldn't say nothing to him, but I can't. help it. I go over to him. I said, listen, man, I need a good laugh. Why do you have a problem like for life? What did I do to you? I don't even know you. Did I do? Did I hit somebody? You know I bang your girls? Like, why are we having this issue? He goes, we don't like you because

Starting point is 02:17:47 you think you're better than us. And this is the mentality. Yeah. Because if I speak better than you or whatever. So I said, no, you don't like me because you think I'm better than you. I was just going to say that. So because I speak better than you. I'm a better athlete. I'm a better athlete. I'm a and I'm way better looking than you probably. Now you feel this way that we can't be friends, but I'm not mad at you, and you should really learn from me, if anything. Oh, my God, he was infuriated.

Starting point is 02:18:09 Well, other guys were listening, they're like, he makes a good point. There's no reason not to like him other than you feel like you're insecure. I was like, if you knew how to do things I did, you probably would feel equal, but now you don't. So now you think I'm throwing it in your face, but I'm just being me. Your conversation is comical to me.

Starting point is 02:18:27 I listen to you, and I'm like, I laugh. but you're being serious. And this is why you feel the way you do. And I think that's a common problem for a lot of people. They feel insecure when they come home because they lack what everyone in society already has. So why not just get them, you know, blending in a little easier by being connected to the public?

Starting point is 02:18:46 Yeah, yeah. And in general, I think it'd be easier to get a job. It'd be able to get, you know, all these things that hinder you in just everyday life, just, you know, behavior in general. when I got out, and this is me, and I was more, they guys would say like, bro, you're so aggressive. You're like, I'm aggressive. I'm like, I'm, you know, I'd say, like, well, I'm assertive. I'm not aggressive. They go just like that. Yeah. That's like, that feels aggressive. I don't care what you can call it sort of, Matt, but you seem very,

Starting point is 02:19:17 you're very, you're on goal. Yeah. And, and, and, and I thought about it. And I was like, fuck, you know, like, what's happened? Like, I what? And they're like, you know, it's, it's, it's an issue. Like, You know, I mean, we're friends and everything, but you're super, you come off super aggressive. And I'm like, I'm like aggressive at all of them. Like, listen, on the masculine level in prison, I'm a one. Right. But out here. Right.

Starting point is 02:19:40 Right. Right. Right. Right. Because everybody is so soft out here. Right. Right. And I'll tell you, and Colby probably, he's heard this 10 times and he'll probably cut this out.

Starting point is 02:19:50 But you'll, you'll get this. I worked at a gym when I was in the halfway house, right? I did seven months in the halfway house. worked at a gym because my buddy owned it. Okay. So I worked there. I mopped. I cleaned toilets.

Starting point is 02:20:02 I did, you know, wiped the machines down, did everything. Worked the front desk, whole thing. And they had this, her name was, I want to say Leanne. I hope that's right. Leanne worked there. And Leanne was going one day. And I used to get a bag of lunch. Every day I would get the bag of lunch, you know.

Starting point is 02:20:18 Okay. So you get your baloney sandwich and whatever. And I got my little bag lunch. So I go to work. And so she's, Leanne's going to pick up lunch. She goes, Matt, do you want, you know, do you want me to pick you something up? And I went, no, I'm good. I got a, I got my lunch.

Starting point is 02:20:35 And she goes, I know, but you always eat your, your little bag lunch. She's like, well, let me get you a sandwich. And I went, and it's funny. So my boss is there, Trion, my buddy. And I think a couple of people that work out at the gym, but they kind of really just kind of hang out. You know, they work out, but a lot of it's really like their social talk. And then maybe another employee's there. And I look at her, I go, no, no, I'm good.

Starting point is 02:20:56 I'm good. She's like, you're always eating that. Let me get you lunch. And I've been there a few, like a month or so, however long. And I, and I went, and this is prison. This is how you'll realize now how weird this was to these guys. I looked at it and I said, I said, well, look, if I, I said, well, look, I don't, I don't have, you know, I don't have money to buy a lunch. And she goes, no, no, and she said, no, I'll get it. I'll get it. I went. It's like, it's like, you know, I feel like at this point, it's like, just go away, you know, like, stop asking me. And I'm, you know, because I'm in prison, you know, you don't have a lot of patience for this banter. Yeah, back and forth. And people are paying attention now, and I don't want any attention. I just want to go clean the fucking, let me go wipe these machines now. You're on the stage now. I sat there and I went, I said, listen, Liam, I said, if you want to buy me a sandwich out of the goodness of your heart, I said, that's fine. I said, if you want to buy me a sandwich out of the goodness of your heart, I said, and at no point in the future, do you expect me to get my paycheck and pay you back?

Starting point is 02:21:56 Oh, you really went through that. I said, or at no point in the future, do you expect me to reciprocate by buying you lunch and you still want to? I said, get me a sandwich out of the goodness of your heart without any expectation of me ever paying you back in any way. I said, I will take a sandwich. But if not, it's okay. I have a bag lunch. It's a bologna sandwich. I like bologna sandwiches.

Starting point is 02:22:17 I'm okay. That's a prison. That is a prison answer. And she looked at me and everybody now is staring like, what the fuck is wrong? You're a bug out. You're a nut. And she went, I'm going to get you a sandwich. And I went, okay.

Starting point is 02:22:31 And she got me a sandwich. That whole dialogue was prison. But isn't that something that in prison, I'm not getting some borrowing a thing of anything from you without at some point you expect, either you expect it back or you expect to back. Or if you don't, then you know what's going to happen? The moment you ask me for a favor, you're going to throw that shit. back in your face. Oh, but when you needed that fucking coffee, you didn't have a fucking problem with that.

Starting point is 02:22:59 This is a common conversation in prison. And I've never needed, you know what's weird, I don't have any vices that most people have in prison. And that's usually how you make friends. Or they find a way to connect to you, right? So when I first got there, it was like, yo, you want to try, like, deuce or something? I'm like, no, I'm good.

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Starting point is 02:24:29 They're like, oh, I got some porno magazines. I'm good with that. Well, what is it? There's nothing you have that I need. So I never become indebted to you. And I have everything. So now it becomes,

Starting point is 02:24:42 how can we, it's hard to have a relationship, lack of word. Yeah, yeah, I get it. It's hard for us to be friends because you have nothing over me and I have nothing over you. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:24:52 And if I try to give you something, your pride is going to make it hard or my pride is going to make it like a good with the sandwich. Yeah. You should have been able to say, oh, thanks. Since your mind has already been incarcerated so long, you're like, well, there's a catch to it. If you've given me something, it's because you're expecting something back. So I get it. Yeah, that's coming.

Starting point is 02:25:09 People get out and they have a completely different mindset, and it does. It alienates them from everyone else. Sure does. They're aggressive. They don't take things. They don't answer things correctly. They don't say, please. They don't say thank you.

Starting point is 02:25:21 They're horrible at job interviews. there, right? Because you get to really cease somebody in a job interview and then they expose themselves. I think I've overcompensated as far as being a gentleman and polite. I'm always polite.

Starting point is 02:25:34 But sometimes, like, my wife would be like, he's sweet. And I'm like, she has no idea that this is an extra effort to become what I'm trying to be. And it's been a long road, but I feel good. I laugh a lot, I joke a lot,

Starting point is 02:25:47 but I also have, I know there's times that I can go from being happy to being like, all right, now this is not for me. You're talking too much. much. I don't want to hear it. Like you, you don't have a long back and forth. Some of the things I get frustrated. If the conversation is going too long about something we don't agree on, I just be like, I don't want to talk anymore. You're right. It's over. You win.

Starting point is 02:26:05 Just start around a walk away. Yeah, it's over. And they're like, what? That's me. I'm not used to that. Yeah. Prison doesn't, it just doesn't prepare you. Even if there's some kind of a program, the programs are half asked. And they still don't, they don't prepare you to deal with other people other than other than other than other other than other inmates and the longer you're locked up, the worse it is and the harder it is to acclimate back into society. Especially for guys that never were like that.

Starting point is 02:26:31 You're raising the projects. Everybody you know has been in and out of jail. Everybody you hang out with sells drugs. You're in this horrific environment. Then you go to jail for 25 years and you get out. You're an animal. I think you're still, I think the clock freezes on you.

Starting point is 02:26:44 Like when you go in, however you went in, boom, the time stops and you stay in that. Well, I think emotionally, Like maturity-wise, yes, you're still, you're still an 18-year-old kid. Right. Or a 22-year-old kid who's probably a 13-year-old kid. But, or boy, mentally.

Starting point is 02:27:00 And then you go to prison. You're right, you don't develop. But then you get out. I think you're even worse. Right. That's because all you've known is what you've been seen. Right. Yeah, I get it.

Starting point is 02:27:09 You can't expect that guy to work the counter at McDonald's. I don't expect him to kill somebody. Anyway, he's just waiting to explode. Yeah. I taught the ART class, the anger management class, bizarre. I was like, we were having fights in the anger management classes. And I'm like, what? These guys are fighting, swinging on each other while I'm here to try to teach.

Starting point is 02:27:30 Nah, this is not making sense. I used to be like, all right, guys, we're doing exercise today. We're going to do this. How do you de-escalate? Never have I done a de-escalation class that doesn't lead to when this is over. I'm going to see you outside. Every time. I was like, this ain't working.

Starting point is 02:27:45 I didn't de-escalate well, you know. even I've had guys who I say, yo, you know, the guy calls me, yo, I'm going to speak you outside. I'm like, for what? No, I'm hallowed you when you come outside. I'm like, now I got to go outside because I'm the type of person.

Starting point is 02:28:00 I'm not good at hiding. I come outside, guys like, yeah, let's go over there. To go over there for a while. I'm not, what are we doing a play date for? What do you want to do? Ah, because I heard you said something. And then I'm like, oh, if you want to fight, let's just fight, get it over with.

Starting point is 02:28:15 Like, guys, they're, They lead themselves up to a fight. They don't really, some of them don't even. They cause it. And I'm like, you're delusional. I don't even know you. I heard you said something about me. I don't even talk to anybody here.

Starting point is 02:28:27 How could I be, I don't even know you. Like, what are we doing? But I remember the guy saying, I said, listen, if you want to fight, let's hurry up. Because I want to play basketball. We're going to fight. You're ruining this day for me.

Starting point is 02:28:37 I just want to, I'm not going to lose this fight, by the way. And you talk to guys, and they listen, like, he's really thinking he's not going to lose that. No, I'm not going to lose this fight. But I do. want to get this over because I got to play basketball and we laugh before we end up fighting we we don't fight half the fights I was going to have it turned out to be like guys like I can't believe this dude he laughs at me we finish him we don't fight I had when you said anger management listen

Starting point is 02:29:01 coby's heard this one you're I'm sitting there watching TV one day and this guy comes up and he goes yo Cox can I talk to you for a second I'm like yeah what's up and I look at the guy and I don't know I've never seen this guy before oh he knew you were who you were though he knew who I was because my neighbor. But that's how you're saying you were in your own little box. Like you didn't, I didn't, I looked at the ground, walked. I went to my job. I taught GED. I was a GED tutor, which really means you're teaching the class. I'm teaching GED and coming back and reading, never leaving myself. And I don't know anybody in the unit. I've been in the unit six months. Yeah, isolated. Yeah. I'm sitting there watching TV one day. Just happened to me and he goes,

Starting point is 02:29:36 you'll talk to for a second. I'm like, yeah, what's up? I'm like, do I know you? And he goes, you brought me your, I'm your neighbor. And I went, oh, okay, I'm sorry. Yeah, what's going on? And he goes, he said, listen, man, I've been taking this anger management class. And I remember my first thought was no conversation, no good conversation that's ever started with the guy telling you. Yeah, he's taking anger management. He's taking ART.

Starting point is 02:30:00 That's not good. And he's like, and he's like, he's like, I'm trying to, you know, I'm trying to talk about this before it gets to be a problem. And I'm like, what's that? And I'm thinking, first of all, I don't even know who you are. Why are we having this conversation? This is a lot. Yeah. But guys would come up to me and say, hey, can you read this letter for me?

Starting point is 02:30:15 Or, hey, I got something from the court. I don't know what it means. So I was like, yeah. And he goes, oh, you know, you've been slamming the door when you leave the cell. And in my mind, you know, I'm bipolar. In my mind, I feel you're doing it to bother me to get under my skin. And I'm like, bro, I don't even know you. I didn't even.

Starting point is 02:30:34 You see what saying? Like that's all. Yeah, this is happening. And I am, as he's telling me this, I can see he's upset. He's getting himself upset talking about it. And I went, listen, I said, I am going to make a concentrated effort to not slam the doors. The doors are very heavy. I did not realize that.

Starting point is 02:30:52 You're really going to your time of experience. Really de-escalating it. Doing everything I can. And you could see it in his face. He didn't know what to do with a resolution. His resolution was elevate this to a point of a screaming match or a fight or threats or something. And so I said it all the right things to deal. escalate situation. And he seemed a little confused by that. And he was, and then he was like,

Starting point is 02:31:15 all right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he kind of walked away. He walked away. He did walk away. I wish I was able to do, like, I'm able to do what you do, but I'm also a smart ass. So I'll get to that point, right? So real quick, this guy one day, he comes out, he tells me I have to bring my papers out. Did they do that in the fence? Yeah, yeah, sometimes. Yeah. So the guy tells me, bring your papers out to the yard. I didn't know what the hell he's talking about. Papers aren't good, bro. I'm a cop. I'm like, I'm not bringing shit out. Like, you know, you know, you know who I am. Everybody here knows who I am. I'm in general population.

Starting point is 02:31:45 I went to trial. Like, you just saw me on TV, probably. You know who I am. And you went to trial. That excludes any paperwork. I went to trial. I clearly didn't cooperate. He wanted my, he wanted my paperwork. I said, die slow. I'm not bringing you paperwork, right? So I come outside without the paperwork. And he was like, he approaches me. This guy was bold. You know, where's the paper? I'm not bringing you any papers. Like, bro, we're going to have a problem. And I was trying to deal. escalated, but I knew I couldn't, because I just, in me as like always to say something slick. So I said, listen, man, if I made you think I was scared, intimidated, afraid, rattled, I've misled you.

Starting point is 02:32:24 For that, I apologize. I don't give a fuck about nothing you're talking about. The guys who are listening to us, and they're like, they got so caught with me saying, if I've made you feel that I'm afraid, concerned, that of that. That's what they get caught up. And then I go, I've misled you. And for that, I apologize. Fuck out my face.

Starting point is 02:32:40 And they were like, by the time they caught onto it, they were like, oh shit, he just politely told you to shut the fuck up and get out of here. And that's usually how I handle it. It always ends with, I searched high and low. I couldn't find a single fuck about what you're talking about. I don't give a fuck of what you say. We're fighting. And I usually lead into that.

Starting point is 02:32:58 And unfortunately, if I had the skills you had, well, I don't mean to offend you. I'm sorry. I just couldn't do that. I'm just like, how dare you approach me with this bullshit? Like, get out of here. You know, it's like dumb shit. But I wish I had your skills. I probably avoided a lot of conflict.

Starting point is 02:33:12 But we both stay out of that situation and never have to worry about it again. I can't be in that situation. I can't go back. No, no, no, life's too good. Hey, you guys, I appreciate you watching. Do me a favor. Hit the subscribe button, hit the bell so you get notified videos just like this. Also, if you want to get in contact with Jose about the reentry program, we're going to leave his

Starting point is 02:33:28 Gmail account in the description box. We're also going to leave his Instagram account. So if you want to DM him, we're going to leave those in the description box. Also, if you're going to leave those in the description box, also, if you're going to leave his Instagram account, If you want to be a guest on the show, we're going to leave a link so that you can fill out a form, leave a small video. That link will also be in the description box. Once again, I appreciate you guys watching so much. Thank you very much.

Starting point is 02:33:52 See you.

Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - Corrupt Cop Betrayed By His Partner The Real Story

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