Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - Corrupt NYPD Cop Frames Innocent Men...

Episode Date: May 10, 2024

Corrupt NYPD Cop Frames Innocent Men...

a dirty cop. He's been accused of by many people of engaging in a variety of behaviors as a police officer that led to the conviction of a number of men, not only black men, but mostly black men in the 80s and 90s. And these men, many of them, they had identified how he had engaged in their particular crimes and their particular cases in ways that were unethical. So I think that's a big question, like the line that were always. playing with. The story is what's illegal versus what might be unethical. And as a police officer, I think he holds the notion and the idea, even to this day, that New York City was the crime capital of the country in the 1980s. There were more murders taking place in New York City than

per capita than any other place in this country. People wanted the streets cleaned up. They wanted the drugs off the street. Juries wanted the folks convicted. Judges, everybody wanted this and he perceives himself as being a victim of that now he went out and did his job and now he wants to point blame at him the wrongfully convicted say they were easy targets because they were young black men and maybe they had a criminal record of some sort but they did not actually commit these crimes and there was actually no evidence in their various cases that directly tied them to the crimes for which they were ultimately this is that these are the stakes they were trying to navigate as we tell this story how did this happen

why did this happen and how does it implicate all of us who are listening to this podcast who think oh this guy scarceles bad well let's be clear a detective can only arrest someone they cannot formally indict anyone they cannot try anyone and they cannot convict anyone that involves other players in the justice system you know it can't just be the detective it's got to be the detective the district attorney or in a federal case, it would be the U.S. attorney. You're going to need judges to be involved. You're going to need public defenders or defense attorneys to be to kind of, you know, placate what the detective is saying or not look into it or just kind of go along with whatever they say is gospel. Yeah.

So many, many people have to be involved for something like this to go bad. Many things. And it has to happen repeatedly. And it has to happen systematically. The era in which Louis Scarsella was in his heyday precedes DNA. It precedes the whole regime, which is like a seismic change when we were able to finally start to use DNA as a way to identify folks in the criminal or whoever was involved in a particular crime. Prior to that, short of having fingerprints or a smoking gun, there was quite a bit of speculation. was part of the process. So, for instance, in the vast majority of the cases in which Louis

Scarcella was involved, or that was trial, the ones that, particularly the ones we cover in our story, they were one-witness murders, no physical evidence, no weapon, no cameras. So what you were going on, and this is why someone like Scarcella is implicated, and the detective of that era is implicated is because their word was gospel. Right. When he walks into that courtroom, you know, and he was a good looking guy,

you know, he's very credible, wears a nice suit, he's very affable. When he gets on that witness stand and says what he believes happened, a jury, some of whom are frightened, New Yorkers, people who want to see the city cleaned up who are looking across and seeing a young black man if they just, who for them, you know, is garden variety, run-of-the-mill, drug dealer X,

there's a, there's a weightedness towards believing that person without any evidence to the contrary. And that's largely what happened in many of these cases. And I think it's, it demonstrates sort of the rudimentary, you know, structure of our justice system such that you don't even need, you didn't need much, right, frankly. Um, did you ever read the book, The Innocent Man by John Grisham? I read a bunch of his books and I sometimes, and I know that one. I know that one. I can even remember going through. So it's, it's the only one that it's, it's his only nonfiction book.

And it's about a guy who gets, who's got, he's got some mental problems. You know, he's not all there. And you can't hold down a job, gets, you know, social security check. Like just, you know, he's kind of running the streets. And he's been in trouble a few times. This always killed me when I read the book. so this woman who he's he's slept with before and she's also drug addict you know like him and he so one day you know he's slept with her a few times you know and one day she's found somebody's gone to

her house she let him in and he she was raped and murdered and so when they they immediately zero in on him because he's been in trouble before and he's you know he knows her they come they question him um for hours and hours and i don't think he ever admits it but they put him on trial he gets found guilty the the homicide detective and of course the district attorney in that case consistently consistently say he stalked her she let him into the house because she's slept with him before she's like he's kind of like a boyfriend he then there was obviously a scuffle he beats her rapes her and murders her he acted alone 100% acted alone They find DNA, I'm sorry, they find, you know, they find semen.

There is no DNA. They can blood match it. The blood is correct. It matches him. Goes to trial, loses death penalty. Been on death row for whatever it was, 10 years, screaming the whole time. He's innocent. He's innocent.

And finally, the, the innocence project comes in. They run the DNA because now DNA technology is available. They run the DNA. They find out it's absolutely not his DNA. They put him that now they're going to put him back on trial. And now the government's position is, well, clearly he still, he still raped and murdered her. He just had an accomplice. But the first trial, he acted alone.

100% everybody that got it. Now you're going to retry him and have the same people get on the stand and say, he had an accomplice now you're saying the evidence shows he had an accomplice like just it was so

I just remember reading that book going bro how do you sleep at night yeah like how do you do that it's the it's the mismatch of incentives

if you think about what incentivizes the government prosecutor is winning they're not incentivizing by justice. Justice is not the incentive. And so that's part of the problem. A loss for them is a loss. And that loss could have political implications. If you are, if you are an elected official, which many prosecutors are, and which many district attorneys are, if you're an elected

official, a loss is a loss. And a loss has implications. And that's scary to think about when it comes to individual lives. But that's not how they're thinking about it. They're thinking about it in in the aggregate, they're thinking about it in terms of how voters are going to perceive them, whether or not they are actually tough on crime, if that's what the objective is at that particular moment. And part of what our story explores is is how in New York

we see over the course of Scarcella's tenure towards the end of his tenure, there is a real push by DA Heinz, who was the long-term Brooklyn DA at that time. He ends up opening up his own wrongful conviction unit The way to respond to the pressure that's now being put upon his office because of the emergence of wrongful convictions as a national phenomenon. So you see his own deposition shift from being tough on crime to, you know, we are also about, you know, transparency in wrongful convictions and ensuring that people are not going to be in jail for jobs if they not convict.

But the effort ultimately is to stay in office. The objective is to stay in power, right? And they can present it as if, you know, they're trying to be proactive, but the actual reality and the inner workings of those departments even doesn't actually correlate with an objective of actually getting justice. Because even when those kinds of units have been set up at times, they're not actually yielding, you know, exoneration. They're not actually yielding people getting out of prison.

So it's a really, it's a challenging thing for us to deal with. And I think it's the whole, the story in and of itself, and I don't want to give it all the way. We're an episode, we just dropped episode four, and there's a lot to be explored still. But it is still, nevertheless, I think, just an important conversation for us to have. Because it's inevitable, and I think it's happened in New York and it will happen in other places, that when we do try to engage in justice reform, so in New York, in other places we saw bail reform become a big deal three to four years ago. And now we're in a new moment where there's an immigration crisis, there's a rise in crime in some cities,

not all cities across the country, but I live in Washington, D.C., there's a rise of crime. And so as a result of that, what is the public want? The public wants more police presence. They want more evidence to give them a sense of comfort

that they're sleeping at night when they sleep at night. So we're constantly caught in this sort of, this sort of topsy-turvy life. We want on one hand in 2020, we want it to defund the police and everybody was like, we need to get,

We need to have police reform, but then four years later, that whole tune has been shifted back to, we need more police, we need more accountability, we need more, more, more, more. And it's kind of, for me, as a reporter, it's a chance to say, okay, let's use this story. This story is a way to put the mirror back on ourselves as a society. What is it we want? Because there are collateral consequences when we decide to empower the police. and the collateral consequences in this context were all these men who were in jail for crimes they didn't commit. And there was evidence the entire time

that they were actually able to show that they didn't do it. In the case of Shabaka Shakur, he produced a witness that was able to say he was with them at the time of the murder. But because that person was a young black woman who themselves did not have credibility in the eyes of the jurors, there was disbelief. And it's a problem right now where, in this story,

at least in the 80s and 90s, who do we believe and under what conditions? Right. So how does this unravel? How do these guys end up meeting each other? So there's multiple jailhouse lawyers that are incarcerated that start to realize I have, and I'm assuming that all of them are saying like, I'm incarcerated for something I didn't do. They're trying to kind of, you know, make a life for themselves while they're incarcerated. You know, what do I do? I do legal work. I'm smarter than the average bear in here. And so, you know, this is a way for me to, one, I mean, I, I just, you know, hustle, you know, make a little bit of money. And two, you know, have a purpose, which is hugely important in prison.

I mean, so you, I think you've hit a nail, you've hit a lot of the points and a lot of the sort of the underlying rationale. Now, the main two guys that we spend a lot of time are Derek Hamilton, who many regard as, like, you know, the greatest jailhouse lawyer of his generation, not only because he was able to litigate his own way out of prison, but because he's been able to help other people. And as a matter of fact, he now is at Cardoza Law School. So here's a guy who, bank robber, right? Well, no, Derek Hamilton was a convicted murderer. And he was a convicted murder

And he'd actually been convicted of two different murders And our story has to end up dealing with Not only the murder That involves Scarcella But actually a previous murder That we call the bread truck murder That he was involved in and had been convicted for So there's multiple layers to his story

But the point is now That the guy is actually He is at Cardoza Law School And leads a legal clinic For law students at list So you talk about the tables turning and how life changes, it's fascinating how, you know, you go from being, he was in solitary confinement for a number of years to now leading a legal clinic at a reputable law school in New York

City. But all of which is to say, he met another jailhouse attorney, a lawyer, I should say, by the name of Shabakash Kuh. They met at Auburn Correction. So the way it works is at different points in time, you could be shipped to different prisons across New York State. They were all in New York. They were by different points in time. These two in particular had met many, many years earlier, had known each other, had lost contact as one, as they might, you know, as you could imagine, as they kind of are taking their respective journeys to the prison system. And then at a certain point in time, Derek Hamilton arrives at Auburn Correctional. And when he arrives at Auburn, word spreads, because at this point, by this point in time,

he's already made a name for himself. He's litigating everything you can imagine. He's litigating, you know, food. He's litigating, you know, anything you could imagine inside of a prison that you can actually, you know, file a grievance against, he's been doing. He's a thorn in the side of every, every warden in which prison he's going to. So they send him to Auburn. But when he gets to Auburn, words start spread around the yard that he's arrived. And people become really excited because people know that he's been able to help other people, either reduce their sentences, you know, remove years off, they're kept off.

And in some cases, help people get out. But he has not been able to get himself out. He meets Shabok. He encountered Shabak who we had not seen in a long time. And Shibaka had already at this point in time been trying to litigate his own case, trying to litigate his own case of not having a lot of success. They, along with a couple of other men who have similarly identified themselves as wrongfully convicted form, the actual innocence team. And their whole thing is they take over the law library, they push their deaths together, and every single day they start to under, they start to read each other's cases and help them file what are called their D40s, right? And therefore, and these are like their, essentially their appeals to get back into the court system, right?

They have to get back. And they need to have grounds to get back in the court system. They need to be able to legitimize why their conviction should be reviewed, not just overturned, just should be reviewed. And that is the big thing that they have to be able to fight for and that they're ultimately able to do. And one of the sort of methods for doing so is being able to point to Scarcella. and the fact that Scarcella was involved in their case gives rise to a level of suspicion such that it would even open up the ability

for their cases to be heard again. And this is a big fight for them. This takes many, many years. This isn't an overnight, you know, overnight success. This is several years in the making. They end up, you know, helping a whole bunch of other guys in prison. They end up starting a law clinic while they're in Auburn, where other men are coming in and learning from them.

It's a movement that they begin. It's a movement that they begin. Yeah, I was going to say it's good to have somebody else review or stuff. It's trying to write your own book or your own life. It's very difficult to write your own memoir. It's very difficult to write your own or I'm sorry, to litigate your own case because, you know, you get, you get entrenched in every little nuance of the case. And instead of, you know, sending in a 25 page. brief or motion it becomes 60 pages that nobody wants to read you know everything about it so you start

harping on all these details that you think you can see how they correlate but everybody else that reads it's like listen by page 40 i don't remember what was on page 12 yeah you know so it it's it is very good to have other people review your stuff and say yeah yeah that's irrelevant that's your here's your key arguments. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's what they were able to do both for themselves and be able to have, being able to have other people that were as committed and that were as dedicated to both their innocence, but also getting out. You know, it's just a story about freedom. This is a story about how this thing, the vast majority of us, you know, you can say take for granted or don't have to think very much about how when you're in prison, you're in solitary, you're

alone, and then to think about you're there for a crime you did not commit. Right. And you're there for two decades. You know, the journey that they go through, like a Shabaka, for instance, you know, you go through the journey of anger, disbelief, you understand why he even talks about how when you watch another one of your friends in prison get out, you have two hearts. you're both happy for them and yes and then you're like angry because you want to get out too and you can start to understand like the inner workings of a prison when why when someone who's

about to get out they might end up finding themselves involved with some kind of a fight or something that happens because somebody might not want them to get out because it's just an idea of getting out it's such a it's such an aspiration for everybody and for those who are able to seize that aspiration it produces a whole variety of other feelings and emotion for those left behind And that's another powerful thing about the story, is that Derek Hamilton in particular says over and over again, his deepest commitment is to ensure he leaves no one behind. To this day, he continues to run, you know, friends and family of the wrongfully convicted in Brooklyn, you know, despite the fact that he's won $11 million, he's won $11 million, and, you know, for his wrongful conviction, he's still had another suit outstanding. He could decide to ride off into the sunset, but he chooses to still dedicate himself to. this work. He says, I'm freeing slaves. If you ask him, what are you doing? I'm freeing people.

And when you spend time with him, his phone is ringing nonstop because there's people in jail who find his number and they're calling him, asking him, they're desperate, and he's making time for them. And that's because he deeply connects with and understands the desperation in the sense that nobody cares and nobody believes you. Because everybody says that innocent, right? Everybody says, well, not everybody. It's a lot of people, not everybody. Not everybody. But a lot of people say the things. Well, here's what I found is that there's, well, I mean, federal prison is different in the state, but I kind of assume the mindset is very similar. But most of the guys were like, you know, they were definitely there for a reason, like, oh, I'm here.

The problem was the, you know, the draconian sentences that they're giving out where some guys like, yeah, I was, was I selling crack or was I, did I do this or, you know, yeah, I did that. you know i didn't deserve 15 years like you know you got guys there doing 25 years for bringing you know bringing a gun to a 15 dollar um crack uh you know sale it's like or even even better this is always my favorite getting charged with a gun during the commission of sale selling um drugs and the gun was in your closet seven miles away from where you actually were arrested But like, how am I being charged with a gun to protect drugs that wasn't at the drug sale? Yeah, yeah. You seem like it's, no, it's just absolutely the case.

I mean, and some of this stuff is like, you know, having some lack plot background myself, it's the, it's the art of defining when the crime began. And that's what you're ultimately getting at is. Did the crime begin at the scene or did it begin at some of the point in time? And this was a continuous set of acts that were connected to the ultimate, you know, murder or a thing that happened. So this is how you can think about felony murder, you know, the idea of the felony murder rule, which allows someone who may not even have actually been at the scene. Say, imagine you were in the car, you got dropped off, but the car just

kept going and there was a murder that committed. You could be charged as part of that murder because they were in route to committing that crime, even though you got out the car several miles earlier. And to some extent, it's a, it's a tool and a tactics to get people to talk. it's a way to get someone to snitch on somebody else so we know that maybe didn't pull the trigger but we can use you and use the fact that you are in some

way, shape, or form involved to rope you in and we're going to use that as a way to get you to talk. But if you got nothing to say, it's really hard. Right. Well, I was going to say it's funny too because like the Supreme Court, I forget what year it was

or the case where they actually agreed that the police can or the prosecution and the police can actually use the death penalty to threaten you. So you're threatening me with death if I don't take a plea. Like that's a pretty powerful incentive for me to take a plea on something. Whether I did it or not, let's say I did do it. Great. And I should maybe do five years.

Now I'm going to have to take a plea for 15 years because you're threatening me with death. Yeah. So these are impossible situations. Right. Especially it's like, okay, well, I can't go to trial. I am guilty. Like I did do. I was here.

I was there. but I should get five years, not 15, and damn sure, you know, I go to trial, I may get the death penalty. Yeah, I had a guy that I met when I was locked up. He was missing a leg. He was, when by the time I met him, it was probably 20, 21, but when he was 19, his brother came home one day. This kid's never had a job.

He's sitting on the couch. He's playing a video game. Brother comes home with one of his buddies and says, listen, I got a lick. you got to come with me I need you all you got to do is drive the getaway car he's like what are you he's like what's happening he said listen he said there's a dope house they got whatever the amount was a hundred thousand dollars in cash a couple of keys no there's a guy there he doesn't even have a weapon we're going to go there kick in the door take the dope take the cash all you got to do is drive the car it's me and my buddy so and so we've done it a bunch times he says so he's scared

and he's nervous, but it's his brother. He's broke. He's got no job. And, you know, he's growing up next to the project. Everybody knows. The only people he knows that have any money at all are drug dealers or robbers or whatever. So he goes with him. No father in the home. Nothing. Goes with him, drives the car. They pull up. His brother and his buddy jump out of the car on their way to the front door. I want to say this was an ATF or the DEF. Forget which one, they were doing it over and over again so they immediately they pull up or jump out of the car get into a shootout with the brother they kill the brother i don't think they killed both of them but anyway they killed the brother he the kid takes off in the car they they they block him in he says initially i thought

they were being robbed so he jumps out and runs they fire on him they literally blow his leg off off with a shotgun. So he gets his leg blown off. He gets charged with the robbery and the death of his brother. This is this is federal and ends up getting he ends up taking a plea for like I want to say might have been 20 or 30 years and took a plea never been in trouble before. And when I saw him he he was in a wheelchair because his prosthetic they were still fitting him for a prosthetic and I don't think you can travel with the prosthetic and he had just been there and and by the time he got there and I'd heard the story and actually met him. I was moved to another prison. But my buddy, I have a buddy who actually met him and spent some time with him.

But yeah, the story was just, it's like you, you guys killed my brother. I never got out of the car. And I was charged with his, you know, with his. And the thing is they pat themselves on the back. Good job. I did a good job. Like, yeah, you sent a 19 year old in prison for 30 years. It's a different orientation. I think it's also connected to, like, you know, what do you believe? Like, it's, when I hear that, when I hear like the idea of adding folks, I think there's, like, a notion that is sort of a Nikean view of the world as, like, this really dark place. And people are fundamentally good or evil. and if you perceive yourself as to be on the side of good

you know the means by what you do to uphold good are less important than the ends to what you are trying to arrive at and I think a lot of the rationalization around shooting the guys let off whatever it might have been in that moment is that there's an ultimate good and this guy's and this person is an ultimate bad evil and I just don't I think the world is way more complicated than that I think it's just a way more nuanced set of circumstances So what you just laid out is, like, there's some connection to poverty here we're talking about, right?

Well, I mean, I think so. But just based on, based on, based on, right, I was going to say, based on the fact that I was, I actually taught GED when I was in prison for, God, I only call it for about three years. Anyway, um, 13 years. But the first 10 is the hardest. Um, those last three flew by. roll um but you know it's funny how i was i would teach the g ed classes and listen these guys they didn't have a prayer you know what i mean like like prior to going to prison i would have told you raised upper middle class and i would have told you if you end up in prison it's absolutely your fault

and many people get out of the you know you can't say that it's poverty because lots of people they go to school they get educations they can get out if you really try you're really this but then you spend time with these guys that are super bright and you're like there was a guy named smith that was one of the ged tutors and i mean he must have been a mathematical genius bro this guy was amazing came in with a high school and it came in dropped out of high school like whatever ninth 10th grade sold selling drugs got like 15 years or something got his gED but was so good at math they they kept him on as a full-time math tutor which really means you're teaching the class because our teacher and the teacher in in our class, me and my buddy Zach's class, never left

his office. We taught all the classes, wrote all the reports, did all, all the, all the, all the, all the, all the, uh, all the grade. How much do you get paid for it? Oh, man, I think, I want to say I made good, good, I made like $20 a month. Zach, I think made like $80 a month. And we worked, we worked, we worked you know you worked like maybe 30 35 hours only because you have counts yeah so but i mean also we too you know you would tutor at night and stuff and they didn't count that so it was probably 40 but i also taught i also taught courses at night too which was not associated with the with the with the g ed but i mean you know you need something to get moving to get just get just get just get going but these guys this is which you just are describing i think this this this

Smith, who used it, was a math genius. I think there's without question, having spent time with Derek and Shabaka, they are legal savants. It's their ability to understand the law, to utilize the law, and to ultimately win their own freedom. This is not an accident, and it is not because of anything. Yes, they needed lawyers in the outside to officially, you know, maybe litigate some part of their case. But in Shabaka's case in particular, he made it very.

clear with his attorneys that he was going to be a part of this team he was going to be a driver of this he was not going to put his fate and this is what had happened to all of them initially all of them as young men 19 20 years old they put their fate in some lawyer who they had to discover later on relief was not incentivized necessarily to get them out but to get them to make sure that they you know I don't want to call anybody just don't know what a pain abroad stroke but they were not incentivized as early to get them out. They had to understand that it was on them. It was going to only because they wanted to get out, but they were going to be able to litigate themselves out. Yeah. No, you have to be,

you have to be the driving force in your case. And you have to be an advocate for yourself. You need advocates, but you have to be your number one advocate. And I was going to say, so it's funny because in the public defender program for the state, I'm sorry, for the feds, I don't know how it works in the state. They're on a salary. So whether they win or lose, it doesn't matter to them. I mean, obviously, they look good if they win. Um, now if you can't get a public defender and they give you a, uh, court appointed attorney court. Yes. Um, though the problem with that system is here's $7,500 for a plea or here's 15 or 20 to go to trial. Okay, well, here's the problem. Yeah. That if you have 200, 200 hours, 200 hours.

of recordings for let's say somebody's on your your client's on tape yeah how long does it take to review 200 hours of recordings 200 hours at a minimum if you don't stop yeah so so the quicker I can get this guy to plea or the least let the least amount of work hours I can put into this the more money I make so my incentive is to not be prepared for trial to convince him to take a plea to not review the case. So even if you're saying, I didn't do it or this or they're saying it was this many keys because that's really what a lot of times it boils down to,

not that you're just blatantly innocent. But I've never seen 25 keys, bro. Like that didn't happen. I don't know what this guy's telling you. And of course, they do the math. Well, how long has you been selling drugs? Two years. How much have you bought from?

For three weeks straight, I bought this much. Okay, well, let's do the math. And you do the math. And you go, Oh, well, then he sold 25 keys, and now he's got a 25-year mandatory minimum. It's like, what are you talking about? Like, this is the guy who asked for that much. I've never sold that much in my life.

He came, he bought three different dimes. Now you're using that calculation. Yeah. Yeah, but you're getting at something also, which is core to our story, is that the way that the system will enable people who in up any other context would not be credible. In any other context, you would not use that person that you talked about as a credible person. but in this context they can be credibly put in front of a jury and presented

as state's evidence and it's like wild because we see that in our story there's a woman named Teresa Gomez and most recent episode episode 4 is all about Teresa Gomez Teresa Gomez was you know a self-identified cracket

self-identified cracker who claims to have witnessed over 11 murders so she's not even saying I have a slight addiction she's saying crack at That's what she is. That's what she, this is what her life was at that point in time. It's not, you know, I should not say that's what she is.

That's how she identified. Right. But Detective Scarsilla uses her over and over and over again as an eyewitness in murder after murder after murder. Now, this is what's wild is that only at a point when she started, I think what he brings, like, his seventh or eighth, you know, don't quote me in that, whatever the number wild, number was only then that the district attorney's office say oh oh slow down here you brought this witness to us several times prior to that prior to that they had no problem putting her on stand and there was actually cases in which she was on the witness stand that it was probably the cases she was high right I mean what do they think she just has really bad luck she just she's just

in a really bad neighborhood she happened to be standing there was so you could so the contextually again I mean this is the complicating factor at that point in time in that community in that particular part of Brooklyn, there were a lot of murders happening. She was a person on the street, so theoretically one could argue that she saw more than one murder, right? But the idea is that she also had her own motivations too. You would imagine that if you're someone who maybe owe somebody some money or maybe has some beef with somebody on the street, one of the people that you would like to get off the street might be somebody that you are also accusing of or at least saying that you would witness committing a murder. But again,

And the fact of the matter is you would, I mean, you and I would think, you know, the way the system would operate is that we would not rely on someone who in any other context of their lives would not rely on them for anything. We're going to rely on them when it comes to defining or deciding someone's fate and whether they should go to prison. Right. But the juries did. And this is why I go back and point to the juries.

I'm like, hey juries, you sat there and saw this person sit in front of you. You could have evaluated whether or not this is someone you should believe and you chose to believe them. And the question I've been asked is why? What is it about, you know, and some of that is, you know, in the hearts and minds of the people who sat in those juries. I was not in those juries, but ultimately many of them decided to convict on flimsy evidence without necessarily reviewing the facts with any great rigor or detail. And this is the challenge that I think I just keep going back to. As I think about, I was, we worked in this story for four years.

you know i think the thing that kept me constantly really like involved and engaged and really interested in trying to tell the story was because i find that as a as a as a country all of us the vast majority of us like to believe that in you know that we are you know on the right side of these issues these issues around justice and when you look at these kinds of cases these are average folks, everyday people who are on these juries who are choosing to convict people with no evidence whatsoever, which tells me something about how the public, how all of us are complicit, how we can easily be complicit in the form of injustice that then we then try to say is mass incarceration. We then try to say is the problem of policing. And I'm like,

no, that's us too. That's us choosing making choices and not making choices. I actually was called the jury duty. I had a jury service a month ago, a month or a half ago. I got the dreaded, you know, letter in the mail saying show up. I postponed it as much as I could, but then I was like, I can't in good conscience given the fact that I have this podcast coming out, written about jury exclusion in the past. I have to at least show up. So I show up, and I go to, and I'm in D.C. and I go down to the court and wait in this long line to get checked in. I will say that they have a video running on Luke that tells us that's about implicit bias. So at least they're trying to help prime you to not be biased.

But I ultimately excluded from the jury only because I marked in that form that they gave everyone when they sit down. Like, have you ever had any interaction with the justices of my mark? A, I have a law degree, and I marked B that I had had an interaction with the law, you know, with the law previously. In fact, you know, I had sat in one of those very crowrooms as a, as a defendant in my 20s and a case in which I had been charged with an assaulting an officer. Now, in my view, I am the ideal juror. I would be a great juror. They don't want anybody with any knowledge.

Right. But then I got immediately struck from the jury. I got immediately removed from the case. It wasn't even as if the judge would even talk to me. He just looked at me and said, you're dismissed. So, you know, there's an unwillingness to allow people with critical consciousness to even participate in the system. So then you want me to believe in the system. Stop.

You know how fast you were going? I'm going to have to write you a ticket to my new movie, The Naked Gun. Liam Nissan. Buy your tickets now. I get a free Tilly Dog. Not included. The Naked God. Tickets on sale now.

August 1st. You want me to have faith in the system, but you don't want people to participate in it who might actually challenge it. And actually have some legitimate arguments, you know, that might need to be earned in that space. But they don't want that. About two months ago, I got a jury duty summons. Uh-uh. I was excited. Really like I called down there because I called down there to say, look, is it going to be an issue that I, you know, I have a felony conviction and they were like, they go, yeah, you don't need to show up. I said, I'm willing. And she goes, no, you're good. I was like, I was thinking, this would be, wow, that would be great. But I mean, again, like, you've done your time. You've, you, the whole idea is that you need to pay some debt to society and have it. But now you have, now you are excluded. Now I always talk about. It's an illusion.

I know. You know this better than I would, right? But I've said this before, and I'm not the first to say it, but there are, you know, if you think about the ways that we can exercise our democratic rights in our society, they actually show up in two different ways. One is to vote. The other one is to participate in the jury process. I mean, those are like pillars of, you know, participation in a democracy is to be able to like. But you've effectively been removed from that because of, you know, because of a prior conviction. But I still have to pay taxes. But you still got to be taxes. I understand that. That's like one of the things they said is like, you know, it's like you cannot have, you know, taxation without representation, but I don't have any representation. I don't get to participate in my representation, but I'm telling you, and they're still taking my tax returns.

I was just supposed to get a $2,100 tax return because I owe like $6 million. They went, no, you don't get that. Oh, it's because they're charging. They're making you pay the bill for your time in prison. Is that what they're doing? No, no. Mine was flawed. and I have a no no I have restitution for like six million you know I'm good for it um but not at

$2,100 that hit like I don't I pay every month and then I'm like I pay every month and you're going to take my tax return yeah and they took my listen they also took my my COVID stimulus check what yeah because you know when at one point they gave away like 1800 right so I got a couple of checks and then they gave away 1800 and they said if you didn't get the 1800 claim it on your tax return. So I did. And they said, you got it. And we're taking it. Wow. We're like, this is so unfair. But that's fun. It's fun. You seem to be able to smile about it. And that's not I have to, bro, listen, I got a smile. I've been smiling since I got, well, after about three years, I started smiling. Because I just realized like, this is what it is. Yeah. And you can be that grumpy

guy that walks around and complains the whole time about being incarcerated. Yeah. Or you can make a little life for yourself in here. Because this is what it is. Yeah. you know yeah so they're already i'm already you know shaving off a significant amount of my my life like you're going to shave off more by being miserable and being anxious and you know and i've got an out date you know what it's like to sit at a a table and complain about you know getting like 20 years and you're sitting at a table with three guys that are leaving in a box you know it's like it's like oh i better stop complaining like nobody wants to hear me complain wow wow

wow they got life that's it that you're not they're not getting out without a possibility no no no all three of these guys like one of them one of them is essentially you know a serial killer yeah you know but he was an old man so they work their way down from like the pen and it's like okay well this guy's 70 years old at this point he's really not he's just not he's not a danger anymore yeah and so you they end up going to a medium and a medium is basically a prison like it's it's or what you think of as a prison there's multiple layers of fences there's medium sounds like oh it's not so bad no no no it's it's bad um doesn't sell so bad okay yeah you know I think maybe one of the guys was there for like drugs he probably had like 45 years or

something but he does 45 years why don't you just say life yeah he's not getting out no you know so I mean these guys you know they had Shabako was sentenced to you know 22 20s to run consecutively you know because they were were two murders. So therefore you got two 20s to run consecutively. I mean, that's, you know, if you're 18, 19 years old, you're convicted of something that's two 20s running consecutively. That's your life. You don't see, you don't see anything that's like, oh, get out of 60. That's not like a thing you're thinking about. You're like, I'm dead. No, you know, and this is devastating. That's devastating. And it's, then you add to that,

like, I wasn't. Like, I don't, I think even after doing the story, it's, you know, even more so than Derek's experience. Once people who listen to the podcast, his story is much more complicated than Shabok. Shabababba's pretty straightforward. It's pretty straightforward. It's just he wasn't there. He wasn't there. He wasn't there.

There were people who could argue, who could assert that he wasn't there. Even the statement that is attributed to him that was provided Scarcella, who was not the lead detective, but who was a secondary detective who came into the, you know, into the, into the, into the, into the, um, into the entire. interrogation room after the first detective couldn't get anything out of him. And the only thing that Scarcella got and was used as a confession was, you got it, you're right, you know, they had it come. But it was never a statement that I did it. This is why I did it. So the only stick, even the kinds of statements that were used to be attributed to that where they were attributed to them or to him in this case as evidence of actually confessing aren't real confessions. It's a vague just, it's more like, The guy said, we got you, we got you, yeah, yeah, all right, you got me, you got me, all right, yeah, you got me, you got me, you got a couple of those.

And as a matter of fact, part of what ends up being, so one of the key characters who's, you know, her name is Francis Frinchie Robles. She's a New York Times reporter who broke this story back in 2013 initially. She broke it with much of the help of Derek and Shabaka because they were kind of feeding her some information. But one of the things she puts together as she's doing her own research is just what you said. A pattern that she was noticing in these various cases that were involving Scarcello. where the statement you got it, you're right, you've caught, you know, it was never, I did it, I'm the one, I committed it, it was always, it was a refrain that she found in more than one of the cases that for her, educated some form of a pattern, that the statements that he was concocting, because that's the assertion, that Scarcella was literally just making up statements, because he would be in his witness rooms, and of course, lo and behold, there's no camera, lo and behold, there's no recording. Oh, and lo and behold, there's no action. transcript of what they talked about. There's only this little notebook that he might have

jotted some things down in. And then he somehow can't remember what he said or what he wrote down. So the only thing that we really have is his word. He actually is coming out of a witness room without anything to corroborate. No other detective was in the room with him. He was in a one-on-one conversation.

He comes out, I got a confession. You read this confession written in the back of a manila envelope that doesn't really look like a confession at all. But that becomes what? A prosecutor is willing to die on right yeah if someone's willing to confess they're telling all and you know but they're not do right you know they're telling everything yeah they're not going to say all i'm going to say is yeah i did it let me go back to myself oh no once you you you pierced that veil it's it opens the floodgates

nobody says a little bit they immediately say everything here's how i did it here's what i thought here's when i did this here's where i got the gun here's where the gun is now here's what because you know you've got that wall once the wall comes down you're ready to tell all you don't just say yeah yeah you got me you got me you're right i did it let me go back to myself no no that's to me it's an unburdening you're 100% all in and the thing it's with scarcela he was very much of the belief and i'm not i'm sure that there were cases that he actually was able to you know discover who the actual criminal the actual perpetrator was but he had he actually went on you know this scarcela has an episode of, he was on an episode of Dr. Phil. And this actually becomes very detrimental for him later on because he's on this, he's on the episode after he's retired and before all this, all the cases have started to emerge. But he says on Dr. Phil and it's like I've got a crystal ball. You know, I've got a crystal ball in my stomach. And it's just like this kind of missed, and what you

also, what it's also fast is it kind of mysticism to it all. There's a bit of a mysticism to the way in which he believes he's able to divine innocence or guilt. And he attributes it to his grandmother, who, you know, he believes had this sort of mystical ability to, you know, and his mother and grandmother that he's able to attribute to. And it's, I don't disbelieve that he believes that. I don't disbelieve for a moment that he believes that. It's an intuition that he's able to suss out.

But again, when we're talking about these kinds of stakes, I need a little bit more than your intuition than a crystal ball that you say that you have around who was guilty and who was innocent, you know. I was going to say, I was a mortgage broker, right? And people would come in. I could get them loans, right, on their houses. And I kind of had a crystal ball, too, that I knew I could get you a mortgage. I'm positive.

The problem is it was based on fraud. So I was a great, I was an amazing mortgage broker. And then people were like, are you sure? I was turned down by my bank. I was turned down by this other mortgage company. I go, I know I can do it. But I feel good about this. I'm going to get you that loan.

I'm like, I feel really good about him because I was so overwhelmingly confident. Of course, I was confident. I know I'm going to make your W-2s and pay stubs, and we're going to get you that loan. Well, this is again, thank you. That's hilarious. That's him. That's your guy. That's your detective.

That's the guy. I feel very strong. It is a conformational component to this as well. It's like, I already know the steps that would need to be taken in order for this to happen. I have enough pieces of the puzzle that I can put the. together and present this on a platter and we can walk this and if you have 50 and he's at this point you know scarcelo might at him at the peak of his career at the peak of the murder you know at the murder crisis in new york city you know he's carrying himself 40 50 cases you got to close some of these

things man well you have to think too so the first time you lie about something right the first time you you commit a crime and you get away with it you become emboldened by it the first time probably had a little that little some some you know he had some threads and he felt pretty good this was a guy but he he knew this you know so he thought if i give it this one little push yeah gives it a little push and then boom the guy found guilty you feel great now i'm willing to push a little harder a little harder before before long you're you're doing the fake confession you're you know you start realizing that your your word is gold and the more you the more they go through the more you look like a rainmaker.

Right. And the more you feel like you have to uphold their reputation. And I think that's the other thing. You know, there was an episode of top cops about this guy. You know, this was like a very popular show in the late 90s, you know,

of America's most wanted vintage. You know, that sort of a, you know, reenactments. You know, so he ends up doing one of those episodes where there's an actor reenacting, you know, him and he's talking it through himself. And you start to imagine, like, you're a, you know,

you grew up and he grew up and he's very generous in telling his story. And I want to be really, you know, fair in the sense that, and I do this in the story as well. And if he's ever listens to this podcast and anything you need to tell a story I tell, I want to be honest and say that he did give up his time to be part of this. And to some extent, you know, and I hope perhaps that this would maybe clear his name or, you know, restore his, help restore his name. and our endeavor was never to throw him under the bus or to necessarily characterize him in a poor light the facts of the facts you know the story is the story that said you know the way I interpreted what I would happen and what unfolded over the course of the career was you start to get

rewarded and those rewards start to feel really good And you start to be called the rain. You are the rainmaker. You're the person that people call in when they can't tough crack the case. And that's part of your identity. It's a big part of your identity. And we see that at any part of life. I mean, any of us is like, you know, you're the fixer.

I was just thinking that fix. I was just thinking you're the guy they call in that can get it done. I was thinking, can you imagine being the prosecutor that really, and maybe even in his heart, he thought or the, the unit, the head of the unit or the lieutenant. or something that's like, look, this is a complicated case. This is tough. Call, you know, call him in. He can get it done.

And now looking back, realizing, like, I was calling him the fixer that was going to, that was willing to, you know, twist people's arms, use false witnesses, make up confessions. Yeah. Like, wow. And in this guy's case, what's evident, interesting and evident as well is that he wasn't planting evidence. I mean, there's guys who were out there planting evidence. Right.

He wasn't planting evidence. He wasn't planting guns on people. In some way, some level, we come to a conclusion not to give it all away that there's a act, there's a, maybe there's a measure of incompetence, too. Like, you just actually work that good at your job. Right. And I think it's even scarier to think that some of what was happening was like, because of the pace of things, because of the lack of any kind of scientific rigor, you know, forensic

river grigger to this that. You know, someone who was doing sloppy work was able to get away with it for a really long time. And because nobody was checking it. And because it was removing people from the equation. And we do have to contend with that. Like, is it something he would argue. He would argue that if you're, he's the guy who was going into the, to the public housing and building after, you know, a crime is taking place. And he's talking to the mothers and the grandmothers.

and he's talking to them and they're frightened and they're sick of hiding in the bathtub every time something pops off and they just want to be able to live at peace in many ways he saw himself as their protector and he saw what he was doing as god's work and in many ways trying to give these people a life that was a little less violent a little less chaotic it. And there's at the core something noble about that. It's the means by which you were going about doing it. Like there's nobility and the notion that I want to help people who are in this case is they are absolutely utterly unequivocally victims. They are unequivocally victims of whether whoever's committing the crimes, it's not them. But they're having to deal with the consequences of it. So here's the problem with that. One, you're not removing the guilty party. So you're not

removing the violence or or or and here's the worst part and this this happens you see this happen all the time actually when you hear about these cases um i am going to i'm not going to try and say this guy's last name because i'll butcher the hell out of it but his name is it's jeff and he's in new york um it's du duro off or so anyway i i did a video with him so he was 16 he's 16 years old i might It might have been 17. 16 years old, a girl is walking through. There's apartment complexes and subdivisions in his neighborhood.

And there's like, you know, there's like little forest areas between them, right? Like in Tampa, they separate the suburbs by these little foresty areas. But the kids are 15 years old, 16. And so they make their way through, you know, they have a little path. So she's walking through one one day comes across a homeless or comes across. Well, let me put it this way. she's walking through it she's found dead she's found dead and raped there's semen on her um when the detectives go and they check they go to her high school they say look are there any like

we feel that because her face was covered up because the person had thrown like a shirt over her face they said we feel like this may be somebody that she knows and they said are is there anybody in the school that's kind of like an odd ball or something and they said well you know There's this one guy, Jeff, and, you know, he doesn't have any friends, he this and that, you know, they, they described what the other kids described it. He was, that wasn't really true because I did have friends. I had friends. You know, he's like, like they, they said I met this FBI composite of, you know, and he said, I didn't really, he's like, like, I'm not super popular. He's like, and I knew her, but just to say hi, we had a class or two together.

He said, they come to him. They talk to him. And they say, look, you know, he's like, I don't know anything about it. And they said, well, keep your ears open. They said, also, you know, can we talk to you? Like, who do you think? Maybe you could help us. Who do you think?

What kind of a person do you think would do this? He's like, I mean, I don't know. I don't think it would be anybody around here. Like, and then they start kind of coaxing him and coaxing him. Then they, at some point over the next week or two, they bring him down town, have a conversation with him. Then they bring him, they say, you know, have you heard anything? He's like, well, this is what people are saying.

He said at that point in this life, he said, I actually had a dream that someday maybe i'd be in law enforcement wow he said so they bring him down at some point they bring him down they question him for i'm going to say 10 hours straight telling him that he did it they try all the different techniques and at some point the one office they do good cop bad cop he's scared of death at one point they get them the cop says listen like these guys think you did it the only way for me to get you out of here without getting hurt is for you to just admit it. If I can get a confession from you, then I can get you out of here. So he gives them a confession. They tell him basically how she was found. He gives them a confession. He says,

okay, well, when are we, you know, he's like, okay, well, how are we going to get me out of here? And the cop says you're under arrest. He, of course, never leaves. He gets, I forget how many years. I don't know if it was 30 or 40 years, whatever it was. Goes to trial, by the way. When he gets his lawyer, he says, look, the confession's bullshit. Like, he told me this. He told me that. I was scared. I was, I didn't, I'd been locked up, you know, it's been 10 hours. Um, they've been, so, you know, they've been, uh, badgering him. He said, I was terrified.

This is what he says. And of course, the cop gets on the stand and says none of that happened. So he goes to trial. He's as, by the way, as a child rapist. So by the time he's found guilty, it's like, he's like, or goes to trial, it goes to prison. He's 19. He fights the case the whole time. God knows what happened to this guy.

Um, Does law work, starts fighting his case. He goes all the way through the appeals court. He, you know, it's all, you know, denied, denied, denied. And we have a confession. We have a confession. We have a blood like the, we have, you know, this, the semen matches his blood type, that sort of thing. So it's fine.

Finally goes to, um, Innocence Project and they turn them down like three times. Hmm. Because they're like, we've got, you know, like you've got a confession. You've got this. You've been turned down. They've looked at it 10 different ways. so finally he some clerk at the um that that worked for the um innocence project comes across this stuff reviewing it starts corresponding and eventually goes back and says we're begging you

I'm begging you to look at this at least test the DNA because and that's all he said was I just want the DNA tested I know it's not my DNA they tested it and when it came back that it wasn't his DNA at the trial wasn't his DNA. They said, well, she had slept with another boy earlier in the day. That was the reason it didn't match. I forgot that part. So here's what was interesting about that is that he said, I just want it tested again. Because now they have this national database where they can pull from all kinds of people. And it's been 15 years. He'd been locked up like 15 years at this point. It's been 15 years. Maybe this guy's in the system. Now. and he wasn't before.

So they go, okay. So finally, you know, the clerk is like, all we're doing is just test it. It doesn't cost $5,000 anymore. It's cost barely anything now. It's like, it's 50 bucks to run this thing. They run it, come back, it's a hit. It's another guy who's currently incarcerated.

Of course. Who a year after this murder, murdered a school teacher who has two children. because the detectives couldn't do their due diligence couldn't do their job and focused on some kid that was a weak mark you let this man go on to murder a school teacher with two children so when you said oh you probably told yourself you're doing the right thing by locking up this guy who you don't even know that did anything yeah you probably told yourself oh we got the right guy he confessed you badgered a young boy in a confession send him to prison and allowed the real murderer to go murder a school teacher who has two children and now the guy's in prison so you know the idea that the cops are like well we took a bad guy off the street no you did a bad job and you let the bad guy go on to murder someone else yeah and and thank you for sharing that I mean like I just you know as a father of a child of a girl a young

girl and a young boy you know those kinds of stories just you know I just can't it's hard for me just even think about that and fathom that and fathom what as a parent you need in terms of closure you need to feel like there's somebody you know and i think there's like a feature of all of these conversations and all of this discourse is the sort of social and political pressure that is on those who are empowered through our law enforcement and justice system to produce somebody. I don't have, I don't, you know, I think that in Scarcella's case and in many other cases, you know, there were, there were pressures. Whether they want to talk about those, name those, acknowledge the extent to which they influence their choices and behavior, I don't

know, but I do know that those pressures are real. Somebody has called me every day. The press is haunting you. Your boss is under pressure because then it looks like they're incompetent, because they're not able to produce anything. There's a notion outside of the law enforcement industrial complex that they just have magic and they just can magically find people like people commit crimes every day that they don't be evicted for you know what you think but people get away with shit all the time i think we don't like to accept that and understand that and deal with that but a lot of things go unsolved you know and so you know there's this there's like this there's an intense amount of pressure to find somebody plausible enough to be able to walk out

there and say this is the point. Yeah, it's the round up the usual suspects. Yeah. And then once that happens, and then once that happens, you know, similar to like the way we've learned so much in the last 20 years through to the DNA, you know, whether it's their DNA evidence, the DNA database, like that has been super helpful. Then the other side of things, we've learned a lot about more about cognition and about how cognitive bias functions and how the different kinds of things that can happen in the brain once we once we anchor to something like anchoring bias once we get anchored to a story it becomes incredibly difficult for people to unanchor themselves to that story once we have a sense of who did it we look for the evidence to confirm

it and we have a tendency to disconfirm any evidence that might actually challenge a belief that we hold so you might get that other so once they got the other evidence about like this wasn't actually his. They had to come up with another explanation. That happened that was another guy I did work with years ago. He passed away recently. The trial, his name was Darrell Hunt. He was a HBO special in him years ago, the trials with Darrell Hunt. You know, similarly 18, 19 years old, charged and convicted with this murder. And even then, even when they were able to demonstrate his DNA was not actually the DNA that was involved in the case that was the sort of rape with this woman. They argued, no, well, it was a second person involved. And

therefore he was still he was still president the crime of the scene probably like it's it's this you know the unwillingness the just deep deep investment that's been made in being right not about it being right and to be clear they also know that if a person gets if there's a wrongful conviction there's going to be millions of dollars or somebody has to pay oh yeah i can also imagine that you see that all the time where they they realize they 100 percent know the person is And then they try and go to them and say, look, we'll let you out right now. We're either going to retry you, but we'll let you out right now if you just sign saying you won't sue us. And here's the thing.

Look, if you've been locked up 20 years and you've seen how unfair the justice system can be, you're ready to sign. You are ready to sign. Like I can see people signing saying, look, just let me out, bro. Because if they take me back to trial, look, I always say this in the feds. And it's not so much like this in the state, but I'm sure to a degree it is. In the feds, if you're guilty, take a plea. 100% you're getting found guilty. If you're innocent in the feds, you got about a 50% chance of being found guilty.

So if you're, if you're guilty, don't go to trial. If you're innocent, don't think, oh, well, I'm innocent. I'll be found not guilty. No, no, you got about 50, 50. I interviewed a guy the other day who's like, I'm innocent, I'm innocent. And then off camera, he was like, what do you think my chances go are? And I said, pretty good. Your chances are pretty good.

like it looks like they have a really weak case he said really said you think i'll get off he said what do you think my chances are though i went 50 50 that's pretty and he was like he goes 50 50 and i said yeah he's that's not good i said in the feds that's pretty good like i'm sorry that's pretty good like that's if you're thinking 99% well you're living in fantasy land bro you don't know how these people operate well i mean because they're they're incentive this to get you to plead you think about it was 90 some percent of of you know those indictments results in a plea deal So they're 97%. So they're likely their objective is to get you to plead to reduce the burden on the system.

You decide to actually burden the system and cost them some money. Yeah. They go, you know, you know, I can't, I can't tell you how many times I've talked to guys who were like, they went to trial. And they're like, they were offering them three years. And then they go to trial and they lose and they get 17. How do you, how do you justify that you thought it was a fair, it was fair to offer for him three and then he's not he's found he go he he he ex he um you know he he goes to trial and you give him 17 like 17 was never fair three was probably what he deserved but you're

going to punish him yeah it's punitive right so that doesn't it makes no sense at all yeah yeah it's uh well you know the logic of it is very clear it's it's to send the messages to be a deterrence to others for whom, you know, who might be considering, you know, and moving forward should strongly consider taking that plea three years. I mean, you know, three years is still three years. It's still 72 weird. It was at 36 months you'll never get back, you know, that you have to think. And moreover, you know, you have to come out and interact and engage in a society that now has marked you. And that you have to enact, and you know this, like, you have to navigate this, that you have to navigate as a marked person.

I wanted to ask you a question, though. One of the things that was fascinating in talking to Shibaka in particular was when he gets out, and there's actually a German documentary film crew actually documents what he gets out. So he gets out several years ago now. And they're there in the prison when he gets, and they're there the day he gets out, and they follow him for several days. They spend time with him. And the thing that's so sad in many ways, heartbreaking is,

how far behind he is the things that have taken place in the world in his absence. Like, you've literally missed, like, there are chunks of just life, not just your personal life, but like the life writ large that you just haven't participated in. Like, you've never used, you don't know what social media, you don't know what, like, there's all these things you just don't have any knowledge of and you have to get scaled up. So I was curious, like, in 13 years in your absence, like, what were the things that you had to learn how to do it when you got back out and when i got locked up i had the razor do you remember the razor phone yeah it was yeah they just came out with uh texting um and so youtube came out in

2005 and people were just starting to post like their their um you know their whatever their summer vacation videos and maybe funny videos prank videos right there's no podcasts didn't even start until the word didn't even didn't even come into existence until 2009 iPhones came in 2000 I was locked up in 2000 and in 2006 I think 2007 or eight the iPhone came out so you know there's so there's no apps there's no you know I'm still thinking computer and so when I got to the halfway house like I I couldn't use my I went and I got like an $80 phone and and you know of course the guys in the halfway house they all know what they're doing they've only been locked up a year here four years here too so they're used to all this you know i'm downloading apps to watch

movies and stuff and my phone keeps getting viruses and so i go to my my i'm asking people how do i get i don't understand what's going on it froze up and oh so i i don't know how to get on youtube i don't know what an app is i'm like like like a program like it no but it's an app i'm like what does that mean i don't know what an app is yeah so i ended up i had a buddy that hired me who owned a that I grew up with. He hired me. And I'll never forget my probation officer because they contact you in the halfway house. I remember she said, I've been there maybe two, three weeks. And she goes, she said, look, I just emailed you a document.

You have to fill out. I said, okay. So I went to my boss. I said, hey, I need to print this. He said, okay, pull it up. And he was, okay. And he grabbed my phone. And he, all right, bro.

It's on the printer. and I went no bro I need to print it and he goes it's on the printer in the in the office go check it out it should be printed and I went I said no bro I said listen I need to print this so I can fill it out I have to fill it out and I have to send it to her I need a hard copy and he goes it's on the printer and I went how is it on the printer you how does it get like there's no cable like you didn't plug my phone into anything like i'm almost angry like he's not like are you an idiot and you know what i'm saying and he looked at me he went no bro he said i i sent it i just hooked up

your phone to the wi-fi and printed it from the wi-fi he goes there's no wires and i was like so i walked in the other room and there's you know 30 pages and i just was like like i have no idea and then he told me he's when i because it kept asking him my phone's frozen my phone this he said look look, we're going to go to AT&T, and we're going to get you an Apple phone. And I went, well, why? He said, because they don't really get viruses like that. He said, and they're really simple. And he said, I'll be honest with you, bro.

He said, I can barely read. He said, I can use my phone, my Apple phone. He said, I can't read well. I don't do anything. He said, but the nice thing is he said, Steve Jobs knows you're an idiot. And he made it so simple, anybody can use it. He said, even a guy that just got out of prison. He said, it's a little more expensive.

we'll get you on a payment program you'll be fine he said but you can use it he said i can help you with that i can't help you with this this this iphone or this um yeah yeah yeah android thing i don't understand yeah yeah yeah i had to go get an i had to go get an an iPhone and you know i was able to use it much easier um and there were so many things you know uploading a video even normal things that people say upload download do this edit this it's instagram uh message like to me it's texting say no no i i messaged them i'm like oh you send him a text no i messaged them what's well messaging is like is you you or i you know dm'd him or i like every platform has its own language yeah yeah and i don't know this and yeah so i just you know in general i was

it took me about a year before maybe six months before i remember because i kept avoiding it yeah or waiting to ask somebody and finally i i you realize look you're either going to be one of these old people that's like i don't know no good with the technology or you're going to have to buckle down and you're going to have to figure it out and so i just started figuring it out because i was like it's that or you know like doing what i wanted to do yeah i wasn't capable of doing it and nobody wants to help you yeah they they they will once or twice yeah but then it's like okay well bro i don't have time to run your life for you yeah you're gonna have to figure this out and yeah it was it was it was tough like it's it's even now by putting in my i well i feel better now

probably in the last year or so since i've actually had a little bit of purchasing power but even pying something with a credit card online made me uncomfortable and nervous and and doing everything online i'm still writing checks i'm still writing checks for some stuff man then my you know my wife laughs at me But even then, even going out and keep in mind, I had a high profile case. So even dating, who dates me? Everything at that time on the internet, everything was horrific that was on me. I mean, now it's flooded with, it's flooded with, you know, with much more positive things now. But that's as a direct effort of the things that I've done.

If I had said, you know what, I'm just going to go get a job laying drywall. then from would be that narrative that that's a narrative bad guy stole money bad person that's it so what who dates that guy you know who hangs out with him who like my buddies think it's you know think I'm cool you know I had a bunch of programs done on me and stuff and they know me and so the only people you really know are either criminals and even to this day the only friends I have are either criminals that I met while I was incarcerated, or people that knew me prior to prison. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's it. So people who meet after who you meet now, is it bidirectional? Like, are you more reticent around connecting with them because of what they might discover? Or they just, you find that they just aren't really, like, what do you think might prohibit you from building relationships that aren't connected to the past or connect?

Well, the past, either through your criminal past or through your, like, pre-criminal past. and not new stuff. I think because they believe everything on CNN, you know, like there's, they read the, they read these articles that are on, you know, they, they read articles and they think, oh, well, you went to jail. You're a bad person. Like that nobody, nobody thinks, oh, well, you paid your debt to society.

They say that, but they don't invite you to their, their party. Like, oh, no, I know you're a good guy. You paid your debt. And then they stopped talking to you at the gym. Like, every time I came in here before. You talk to me. Like, you found out this, then I don't, you don't have, now you look at me, you look. Wow.

And you just keep walking where we were buddies before. Yeah. So. That's a tough. That's tough. I was going to say, I feel comfortable around guys that have been incarcerated. You know, we have a very similar, dark, dark, you very quickly get a dark, dark, dark sense of humor.

Mm-hmm. You know, so you get to joke with them and you have an understanding of what they're going through. Yeah. Um, and, and there's a support system there that a normal person doesn't understand. Yeah. You know, I have guys that call me from, you know, hey, can you order me books? Yeah.

Yeah. Because yeah, you know, can you this? Can you that? Of course. Absolutely. Because you're, you're, you're, guess what? Your, your, your friends don't understand. They're like, bro, can I just send you the money and you order it?

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to order books? And I can't, I have to order this special magazine and I can't order the books that I want. And I can't like, like this guy just came out of it with another book. I'd like to order it. Can you order it for me? Yeah. You know, and then keep in mind, too, who keeps in touch with a guy in prison? It's a one-sided relationship.

You know, it's so funny. So, you know, my best friend growing up, my best friend, best, you know, we were brothers. He started to go in and out of prison when we were 19, and we remained friends until, like, early 40s, like 40. I mean, he would come out, you know, that was my guy, that was my family, like, you know, my, you know, my mom still loved him. We all, every, it was never, it was never a shunning. Something finally did happen where it was like you've crossed a line that is just, and, and moreover, this has been two and over two decades of, of re-embracing you to be let down for this to go back in. And I know you're not just letting us down, you're letting yourself down, I understand. on it. But when he was in prison, I remember we wrote letters regularly, and I still

have the letters, dozens of them. And I would visit him like once or twice a year. He was an Appalachian Malice. I would put you somewhere to drive. And I remember like no one else will go see him. No one else would write to him. And I felt like some pride around the fact that I stayed friends with my guy. You know, I felt like the deep. I didn't want to feel like it was a self-congratulatory thing like, hey, I'm the guy who stopped by, my friend, whatever, whatever. But I do feel like it is informed how I approach storytelling and probably deeply why I sort of have this, I keep coming back to these kinds of stories. You know, it was that personal for me, that close for me. This is a person who was born two days older than me. We did everything together from the time we were five years old, beyond. And I always felt like,

there was a point of departure in our lives that I don't and I remember the night I remember we were 16 years old I'll never forget this night we were at 7-11 same 7-11 we used to play video games and we were little kids we were playing punch out of some shit in the 7-11 and his car pulls up dark tinted windows this guy gets out who we had known earlier far part of our lives and he'd gone away for like jukey he'd gone away for like jukey he'd gone to juvie and we were middle-class kids man we weren't even like this wouldn't even our life but this was dc in the 80s and 90s like the amount of crack and infiltrated so much of our lives it was just permanent it was just there even when didn't cut across class wasn't even necessarily a class um it was implicit it was a class agnostic um and uh the guy gets out and he calls him a boy over and he gets in the car and he just leaves i'm standing there watching him drive away with my with this other dude in this vehicle like gone and i just know that that was the night that like for me it dawned to me maybe it had happened for him earlier he'd already

known it but for me that was the night i was when i look back 20 30 years later that i'm like that night and it was nothing i could have said to stop that you know as his peer as his friend i could say all i want to say but there was a part of him that he had chosen a path that he wanted to be on for whatever reason. And then he was on that, he could just not, he was never able to kind of get himself off of it, the part because, you know, for what I remember, I kind of recall, like,

there was probably some strong learning disabilities that were already present earlier in his life. And so, therefore, he was already masking some deep shame and deep sense of, like, not feeling like he was able to sort of fit and keep up. But then is that gap grows. every time you come back home the rest of us have taken another three-year leap in our lives another three-year leap at our lives another three-year leap at all lives another three-year leap

and you're a convicted felon who's done three years or six years in prison or two years or and multiple times and people don't so you have to work three times as hard as everybody else and the other part too for him to come home is now he's comparing himself to everybody else which is the wrong thing to do yeah um yeah it it's all that's a hard position to come back from and then of course the people you know you know like i still know these guys right like and periodically somebody will say something or suggest something and i'm like now i'm good you know i'm like i'm like i don't you know and it's you know and i laugh and stuff uh because also you know i have a true crime channel and you know i have an extensive fraud history so i will get contacted by guys

that are currently committing scams and they're like bro like if i could like i'll pay you i'll bro i'll cut you check right now i'll send you three grand right now if you'll just have an hour conversation with me three grand's nice that's nice i i like three grand by the way but here's the problem is that i'm like yeah you don't understand i'm i'm i'm good i'm not interested in being on your indictment and they're like and then they come back and they're like no bro you don't understand like i'll never say nothing i'm like no you don't you don't understand let me let me tell you what's going to happen you're going to get arrested and and they're going to and you're i said and not let's pretend for a second you're a solid guy because i just don't know anybody that is but let's pretend

that that person exists you're a solid guy and you don't say anything i said you're going to notice on your indictment that i'm listed and they were like well how how i want i i want i won't say nothing. I said, here's how. They're going to grab your phone. They're going to run all the phone numbers against all the people that have been, are on probation or been charged. My number's going to come up because my number is a part of that database because I'm currently on supervised release. They're going to look at my charge. The other notice that it's similar to your charge. They're going to go and present that to a grand jury. And they're going to say, we've noticed that there were multiple phone calls between Mr. Cox and this guy. Here's his phone number. Here's what

he's been charged with. We want to add him into the indictment. We think he's the ringleader for a participant. Guess what? I said, I'm now on your indictment. I said, I'm going to take a plea and go to prison for five years or maybe 10. They're like, why would you do that? If you just go to trial, I'm not going to, I'm not going to plead guilty. I said, one, I can't believe that because they'll offer your sweetheart deal to get me. And I said, the second thing is, I can't, all the jury's going to hear is going to hear from your victims? They're going to hear from people. I said, because hearsay is inadmissible in federal court. So some guy can say, Jimmy told me that Matt did it or Matt Cox was involved. I said, I can't get on the stand because the moment I get on

the stand, they're going to bring up all of my past history. Mr. Cox, have you been arrested for wire fraud in 2001? Yes, what happened there? Mr. Cox, were you arrested here? Mr. Cox, when the feds came to get you to go on the run, yes, Mr. Cox, did you continue to commit fraud? Yes, Mr. Cox, what frauds have you been committed? I said, boom, boom, boom, boom. Oh, wow, Mr. Cox. Those are almost identical to what your co-defendant was convicted of. I said, do you understand that if I was on the jury, I'd convict me. I would say he's involved. And how many phone calls?

There was 23 phone calls. 23 phone calls isn't a lot of phone calls over the course of three months, by the way. But when you say 23 phone calls, it sounds like that's a conspiracy to me. I said, I can't do that. Now, I can sit there and let them present their case. But when they're done presenting their case and they get a couple witnesses on the stand that say that this guy talked about me. And even if you don't talk about me, I said, they're going to find me guilty then too. I said, so I really have to just go in and say, what kind of a deal can I get?

Can I plead guilty to five years? You know, I said, you don't understand the position I'm in. If the cops came to my house right now and said, hey, you know what, we want to go, we want to search your entire house for drugs. I'd be like, of course. Now, I've never seen drugs before, but by all means, coming because I don't have the same rights as you. I can't say no.

I'm on federal probation. If my probation officer says, yeah, you can search his house, damn, of course you can. I'm surprised that you had to ask officer. Come on in. I don't know why I didn't suggest it when I opened the door. That's what I got to say. And people don't realize that. You know, and I think it's similar, like, not in any way that way.

I think there's a point in time for me with this friend I had to recognize that that could happen on some level. Yeah, your best bet in any scenario where someone comes to you and suggests somewhere. Listen, everybody, by the way, every single person that suggests talking to me, me or even ask me a question about how to get a how did you get your how did you when you went to the DMV and got them to give you the ID how did how did you provide this I immediately come back I always respond I am not interested in answering any questions that are related to fraud please don't contact me again and I send it you want that as a record you want that of the record you want that you want a record of that every single time every single time because you know it it

anybody that comes to you it's like did you ever read um in cold blood by uh capote what's yeah capote you remember what there's one thing where he says i forget the guy the main guy one of the murderers where he says it's as if we were raised in the same house and he walked out the back door and i walked out you know what i'm saying like that it is that people don't think that but it are those those decisions where most of these of criminals are too weak to say I'm not going to get in the car yeah you know you're lucky they didn't even ask you yeah so you didn't have to make that choice whatever that ended up being that night you know but it it's it takes it takes a strong person to say to say no I'm not you're going to go

do what or that guy's kind of a I don't I probably shouldn't be around that guy you know he may be a Especially as a young person, too, you know, because so much of the, not just peer pressure, but the idea of fitting in and the relationships they feel so consequential and to like put one of those at risk to lose the, you know, these are, those are all, all true. I actually feel like in some way, I wonder what my friend, the Vulcan wondered this, if he had just gotten a longer sentence, would it have helped him? Was it the actual problem that he kept getting two, two or three years sentences and kept coming back home not fully finished like he was almost coming back he had done some amount of work

enough to get himself back out of the street but not enough for it to stick there was no stickiness to it i don't know just i just whatever well you don't know what the problem with that is that i think when i the first time i got in trouble i got three years probation you know um and sometimes i go back and forth. Sometimes I think if I'd gotten a couple of years, maybe I would have learned my lesson, but I don't think so. I don't think

that my mind was right. And what I think the, I don't think giving people 20 and 30 year sentences for certain crimes is, is legitimate. Like that's just stupidity. What I think is that

there is, they have these cutesy programs. You know, Votech, you know, like you can learn to lay drywall or be an electrician. And those are good. I'm not saying they're bad. But I think that there are, there are programs. There's a program in the federal system called ARDAP. It's a residential drug treatment center or treatment a program.

The problem with that program is it's not a problem. It's that people think it's about drugs. It's not about drugs. You know, they have to tell Congress something to get the money. So we're working on drug addicts. I'll tell you, bro, right now we almost never talked about drugs. I don't have a drug problem. I just said I did so I could get in the program.

Yeah, yeah. And I thought, wow, like I actually did like a little class with a bunch of drug addicts just to try and figure out what I needed to know. And I didn't need to know any of it. The truth is it's about criminal thinking. And I've always said, I don't think anybody should be released from federal prison until they've passed that course. Wow. It teaches you how a normal person thinks as a result of how a criminal thinks.

And you can create criminals, you know, I mean, I think that a lot of these guys are born, you know, they're sociopaths, but you can re-educate them and teach them to think in a way that makes them think about the consequences before they do things. And you realize when you're in that program, how many of. of these guys, like I thought it was rudimentary and silly, but you, but let me tell you, 95% of the guys are struggling with just rational thinking. They, they, they immediately go off of this. They immediately jump into this conclusion, this conclusion. And you're like, why would you even think that? Like obviously, if you do this, this is going to happen and this

and this, they don't do that. So, but it's a nine month program and I'm telling you, and it does reduce recidivism. I think recidivism in federal system is like 70, 75%. And if you take ARDAP, it drops down to like 45%. So is that a lot? You know, it's not, it may not be a lot. It's half. And half, if half those guys don't come to back, have to come back, that's $30,000 a year plus the loss of the tax base, which is another 50 something. The actual loss of an of an individual based on the past, the, the tax base and what it costs to incarcerate them is around $50, $55,000. So you think, oh, well, the ARDAP program costs a lot of money. Well, it doesn't cost $55,000 a year, you know?

So like my wife went to ARDAP, too, and she was a drug addict going into prison. And she'll tell you right now that that program saved your life. She's like I would have never like that's a program probably would cost you between probably cost you 20 grand on the street to go shoot more than that it's a nine month program. That probably cost you a 30 or 40 grand. And you have to live there maybe even more. She's like I could have never afford something like this on the street. Like she's a completely different person. Nobody that knows her before is like thinks she's the same person at a lot. This this chick is you know like when she tells me about her life before I'm like, what were you thinking she's like i when i was on drugs it seemed like the reasonable thing to do i wasn't thinking i wasn't thinking at all i was thinking how do i get through today that's what i was thinking you know i don't get through to yeah but i mean think about it you could you don't have to give somebody 40 years you could probably give him 10 years and make them pass that program and save yourself the time and and that guy's got a better shot of life you know and he wants to he wants to

even if you fake it even if you fake it, you pick up something. Something's going to stick. Something's going to stick. Right. Yeah. Well, the good news is this friend of mine as I was talking about a parent, I still connect with his mother. He seems to have gotten some anchoring for himself. He's out in the world. I don't talk to him anymore. Maybe we'll reconnect to some point in the future. Maybe this project will bring him back in the mind. We'll reconnect in some way, shape, or form as a result of that. Well, maybe he got older and matured. Yeah. That's what happens too. Yeah. That's what happens too.

We just get older and not because of any not because of anything he did just it's just you age out of shit I see I see that we just age out of some shit um I got to get ready to book you here man um yes sir it's been really a pleasure to hang out with you yeah I'm sorry I I dominated the last 20 minutes or 30 minutes but okay um this is a learning for me too these are conversations that's the point of it right to actually not just I don't know I feel like these kind of junkets when you're going around talking about your stuff, I've done them a couple different times. I think it's more fun for you to do it when I'm doing it myself just to the distant life. Take the pressure off thinking that the objective is here to sell this

product. It's just to actually be people. People, you know this, people are drawn to people. People are drawn to stories. They don't give shit about like whether your thing that you're trying to peddle as anything that they don't like you or that I interested in. So I'm way more interested in just being in conversation with folks. And it was great to just be in conversation with you for man thank you for sharing parts of your story with me no problem no problem i appreciate it what what is the name of the podcast sure and where where can it be sure the burden it's called the burden um it can be found everywhere um it's uh it's uh currently in featured by i heart so it's an i heart radio podcast so you can find it on all the different

all the different platforms but but uh it's being distributed by i heart at this point in time and And we just need people to go and take it out, take a listen. I think once you listen to the trailer in the first episode, it speaks for itself. I probably have not even done good enough justice to the product, even in this endeavor, because there's a lot of people that were involved, and there's a lot of great storytellers. It's fun. It's funny. It's funny as you can make a situation as the one that I described.

It's funny. It's got good moments of levity. It's investigatory. It's revelatory. It's a tour. It's a journey. It was hard to make it, but it's a really blessing to get it out in the world. And I hope people are finding some enjoyment out of it.

They're getting something out of it. And I hope people seek it out, listen to, give it a shot. It's all I ask. Hey, you guys. I really appreciate you guys watching. Do me a favor. Hit the subscribe button. Hit the bell so get notified of videos just like this.

Also, please go to the description box. I'm going to put the link to Dax's podcast, the burden. Please check it out. Also, please check out my. my Patreon and my clips channel. We just started and it's struggling. So please check it out. I really appreciate it. Link is in the description. Thank you guys so much. See ya.