Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - Divorce Lawyer James Sexton

Episode Date: December 27, 2023

James Sexton Divorce Lawyer

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A man asks, did you have sex with him? And the woman asks, do you love her? Just like a surgeon looks at a person's body differently. I look at marriage different. Look, all marriages end. They end in death or divorce. So what happens in between is what's mattered? Was it lovely to be loved and was it lovely to have someone to love?

I wish people could hold on to that. Because to love anything is to accept the inevitability of losing. Do you have any like all-time, the worst, divorces. The chapter, everyone's fucking a nanny was a true story. And that's one of my favorite

stories, only because it has a karmic piece to it. They have this very cute nanny. And he convinced his wife, he's like, let's try to get the nanny to have a three someone. I went to law school to be a

divorce lawyer. Oh, okay. So, which is a rare thing. You know, I think it's very funny when you ask someone who's a divorce lawyer, how did you become a divorce lawyer? You always hear two words that I think are very funny to hear in his story. And that is, I ended up. I ended up. You never end up somewhere you meant to go. Like, it's always like, yeah, I was trying to get to a giant stadium. And then I ended up taking the wrong road. And all of a sudden, I'm in Rutherford. You know, like you, you, it's never a good thing usually. I ended up there. You know, yeah, my luggage

ended up in Tulsa, you know, but so I, whenever you ask a divorce lawyer, how'd you come to a divorce lawyer? There was like, well, I was working in a firm that did this and then I did this and I ended up taking a case. The words ended up always in there. And I always thought it was really funny because it's, it's just not something like if you meet someone who works for Scadden or Simpson Thatch or any white shoe law firm, there was a well, I did a federal clerk ship and then I did this. It's never, well, I ended up. It's always, it wasn't consolation prize, you know. But I, I went to law school to be a divorce lawyer. My undergraduate degree was in psychology. I wanted to be a therapist. But I was always a debater. I had debated in high school at a fairly high

level. Like my freshman year, they put me on the varsity team. And I just enjoyed debate. and I figured out pretty quickly that as a therapist, you're really supposed to listen more than you talk. And I'm better at talking than listening if you haven't figured that out. And so I said, okay, that's not the career for me. So I went to graduate school and I was studying culture and communication, persuasive speech. I was basically studying propaganda studies. And I was teaching at NYU. I'd finish my master's degree. I was working on my PhD. And then I realized how little money college professors make.

And I went, okay, my son had just been born my first child, who's now 27. He's a lawyer now. He's an ADA in the Bronx. So he's put people in jail. And in the Bronx, people still commit crimes. So, you know, that's like one of those places where people still are. He's got job security. And I decided, well, you know what?

I always like debate. I always liked to sort of, you know, weaponize my verbal abilities. So let me take the law school admission test. And I took it and I got in the 99th percentile and I got to go to the law school for free. So, but when I went to law school, I remember thinking, well, I don't, I don't want to do corporate law. I don't want to be a highly paid proofreader. I don't want to do transactional stuff like real estate and bankruptcy or immigration. Criminal law sounded really interesting to me.

but I was honest with myself that the people who commit interesting crimes and have money usually only do it once. And the people who commit really interesting crimes frequently usually have no money. So you're not going to get paid a lot. Right. So I kind of went, well, where else could I get courtroom work other than, and personal injury sounded no fun to me because personal injury work, you're essentially staking your own money, like your own time.

And if you win, okay, you get a return. you don't, you lost. And I'm not that much of a cowboy. Like, I, I just don't enjoy gambling in that way. Yeah. So a lot of people don't realize that. A hundred percent. Yeah.

And it's, if you've ever been around a personal injury lawyer when there was a defendant's verdict, like that you, it's like somebody killed their puppy. Like, they, they're like, oh, they could see them doing the math in their head going like, oh my God, I've spent so many hours and so much of my own money. So I sort of went, well, look, you know, the weatherman have it good. you know if you get the weather wrong you still get paid you know you get it right still get paid so i went well divorce slayer if you win you get paid you lose you get paid like i'll do that and i also liked that it checked some of the other boxes you know gave me that courtroom stuff that

i like the performative streak that i like and it also what i liked about the potential of being a therapist which was helping people who are going through a serious time and and sort of an opportunity for transformation and i like the fact that people couldn't be full of shit when they're getting divorced because no one could ever say they meant to be there. You know, that's what I think you and I have in common in terms of the, the stories we tell or help facilitate people telling is no one meant to be in jail, no one meant to be getting divorced. Yeah, I was, I was going to say, it's funny every time I would, I would, I'll meet people and you'll meet some, you know, a woman or a guy or something. They'll say, you know,

oh, yeah, well, I'm divorced. I'm like, oh, I'm sorry. And they'll, they'll, oh, no, I'm glad. And I'm thinking, really? And I've always been like, well, I mean, I'm sorry because I know you didn't enter into that marriage thinking you were going to get divorced. That's what I mean. And yeah, the jerky thing for them to say, oh, I'm not. Okay, I get it. Yeah.

You know, I think I know what people mean. And I think you do too when they say that. And that is that people do sometimes. I think that what people mean to say when they say, oh, I'm sorry. like I never make someone feel odd about that like the eighth anniversary of my mother's passing away from cancer just past past Sunday and I was when I tell people oh I was doing this because it's the anniversary of my mom's passing

they go oh I'm sorry and of course I understand what they mean which is I'm sorry for your loss but there is a part of you that if you have a dark sense of humor goes like well you didn't kill her like you didn't give her cancer like you know like what are you sorry about Like if sorry is, I, I am sorry for my responsibility for what occurred. So like divorce, like I'm a divorced person. I'm thrilled that I got divorced. I mean, it was, it turned out to be one of the greatest things that happened to me and to her.

You know, we're still dear friends. We have one of her sons together. We're now adults. She's been remarried for 12 years to a wonderful guy who's a much better fit for her. And we all, everybody gets along and, you know, really enjoys each other. but was it terribly painful when we were going through? Of course, it was very painful. So when someone says, I'm sorry, I hear it as I'm sorry you went through that,

not I'm sorry that happened to you. Like, you know, you're someone who's been through tremendously stressful and traumatic things. And I'm sure that you're not sorry that they happened to you because you wouldn't be who you were or were it not for the things you've gone through. Yeah, I understand what they meant. I mean, obviously, when they always say, but it's funny that people, I mean, I don't think I've ever met anybody that didn't say, you know, where I'd say, I'm sorry. And they immediately, you know, oh, I'm not sorry.

That's just always, yeah, that's like all this, all of buddy, it's always, it's always I guess people don't want to feel wounded. I don't, I don't know. I think there people do feel self-conscious about, like, that they're, like, there's something wrong with them. I mean, I think we have been very cruel to people when it comes. a divorce. You know, I grew up, I went to Catholic school my whole life. I'm 51. I went to Catholic school my whole life. And so growing up in the 70s and in a Catholic environment,

there was like one kid in the class whose parents are divorced. You know, it was like, nice to him. His parents are divorced. But it was like the one kid, you know. Right. And he happened to be biracial too, which is like that poor fucking kid. Like, you had everything. In the 70s, these were two very complex things to navigate at Catholic school. But the truth is, like, I, you know, I don't know that now, I wish we were a little more like, oh yeah, like it's a chapter in a book. Like, like love is, you know, I've had some great loves in my life. Like I, maybe three, four, you know, and each one of them, like I used to tell my sons when

they, they were five and seven when the mom and I divorced. and as they got older I would say to them all the time like oh your mom's one of the great loves of my life she made me such a better man you know like and like we made our lives so much better because of each other and you know we had a chapter where we loved each other in the way that married people are supposed to but then we realized we didn't love each other in that very special way it doesn't mean we don't love each other but there's a lot of people I love it would want to be married to but you know we're family and we always will be and so when you say it you've you divorce that way, there's nothing to be sorry for. It's sorry for the pain you went through

because every divorce is painful, every breakup is painful. But it's certainly nothing. People I think don't want to be pitied, I guess, is maybe that's it. What they're responding to. But I think the instinct in you to say that is actually like an empathetic one, you know, which is to say to something like, oh man, I'm sorry that things didn't go the way you wanted them to. But I do think sometimes the lives one of the things it's really cool about being a divorce slayer that you wouldn't think because people are always like oh my god like how do you deal with a sea of human misery you must have to do with but there's also like so many redemption arts because like i i've had clients who come in and they're just destroyed like their spouse was cheating on them

or they've been a victim of intimate partner abuse or their spouse walked out on them and they're just sitting in my conference room table and like their life's over like their life's over They're miserable. They're crying. They're just, they don't want this, but they can't, you can't make someone love you. You can't make someone stay with you. You can't make someone not cheat on you. And they're just, they can't imagine that they're going to be okay, you know?

And then, you know, we have to go through the whole thing. But it's like five, ten years later, I get invited to their next wedding, you know, or they send me a holiday card or they stop in, like their life is so good. you know, their life is so good and they're okay and their kids are okay and they find new love and like, you know, I always say like 56% of marriage is in divorce and people love that statistic because they love to be like, look at how reckless it is to get married. But the more interesting statistic in my point of view is that 86% of people are remarried within five years of their divorce. So that's people who've already been through it and they still go, fuck it. I'm doing it

again like let's go like let's go so that tells me there's something there you know right so i kind of love that that that part that's the part of it that drew me to it was the opportunity to be with people and part of the architecture of their their redemption arc or their next chapter and that's been really really gratifying sometimes you have to wait a long time to see it but one of the most enjoyable things I get to do now is when I have that broken person at my conference room table, I'll say to them, you know, in that chair you're in right now, 10 years ago, was a person in exactly your situation. And I'm going to give you their phone number. And I want you to call them. And I want you to tell them that what's going on in your life and that I'm

representing you. And I want you to hear their story. And I'll, I have a roster of former clients. And I, I've said to them, do you mind if I give a client your number so that you can say, like, hey, I was sat in that chair. I know where you think you're at the bottom now. But trust me, like, your life is going to be so good. And those clients, like, they love that opportunity. They're always like, oh, my God, if someone had done that for me when I was sitting

in that chair, like, that would have been like something to hold on to. So that's the joy of having done this for so long now is that I've got this whole roster of people that I can kind of, you know, and I can do it on the negative too. Like I guys, you are a woman who are going to do some dumb shit in a divorce litigation. I'll say, okay, before you do that, can I connect you with one of my other clients who did the same thing for the same reason, understandable, but they'll tell you how it went for them. And then I'll connect them. And sometimes that's really like a transformative thing for people.

So I have a question. And this is funny because it's actually kind of. related to a friend of mine who who was locked up like a year ago and he was and he's got all these stories from being locked up and he was telling me he said listen he said you want to hear one of the weirdest things I was like what he said there was this he is there's this guy who's in for for stalking I was like okay what do you he he he was like he he was his he was his wife so they're in the middle of a divorce yep he wouldn't stop calling her. He wouldn't stop coming by. She got a restraining order. He gets locked up again

because he shows up or he calls. While he was there, the guy got locked up, did like 10 or 15 days, got out, got locked up again, did like 60 days, got out, and he said came back like two days before he was leaving. And he said every time he was leaving, these guys in jail were like, listen, you understand. You cannot contact her. No, no, I understand. And I don't know, I don't know what I was thinking. And then he would leave it, come back, you go, you know, I just wanted to, if I, if I could just sit down and explain to her. If I could tell you how many times I have had that conversation with a client, it's a lot.

It's a lot. And they are sincere. Like, no, no, if I can judge. The only thing I can compare it to what it reminds me of is it reminds me of the gambler who goes, I just got to get ahead. I just got to get. if I just no no no I know I'm 50,000 down I just need another grand if I get that grand I'm gonna get right back up and then I'm gonna cash out once I get back up now I know I'm 150 grand down

now but I'm telling you if I get enough and you look at them and go do you how do you not know how ridiculous you sound right now like this is no different than when you were 5,000 down and you threw another five on top of it 50,000 dollars ago they don't see it they just don't see it. They just don't. I've had so many clients that just do not understand that you have, this is one of the most shocking things I tell people, is that you have the right to say to someone, never contact me again directly, period. Ever. I refuse to speak to you. And then if they contact you again, if you make clear that contacting me will serve no legitimate purpose, but to harass a lawyer, arm and intimidate. Then if they contact you again, ever, they have engaged in harassment in the

second degree. Period. And you get a restraining order. They violate the restraining order. It's harassment. They violate the restraining order. It's criminal contempt to court. Like, I've seen so many people locked up because they just do not understand. No, no. I just have to explain to her. No, I'm telling you, she's going to understand. And it's like the human desire to be understood is like the undoing of so many people. It's like the desire for closure. There is no closure. It is not going to happen. I was so fine. I'm like, they want to have a trial, you know, and they're like, well, no, I want her to hear. I'm like, listen, there is a moment where she's good, like, because guys, you know, women will say all the time, like, oh, I want him to know what he did. I want him to feel how much he

hurt me. I want him to, I want him to regret. And I go, listen, there will be a moment where that happens. It's not going to be in a courtroom. He's in, you're probably never even going to see it. it's going to be when he's alone in bed at night when the monsters come for all of us, you know, years from now, in that years from now when we're alone and the air is still and the night is silent is when we go, you know, I was a piece of shit like that's what our demons come for us. And I said, I'm like, and you think he's going to call you when that you're kidding yourself. But just know that, you know, if your truth is like, my beliefs don't require you to believe you know the truth is the truth whether you believe the truth or not truth's the

truth so i i there is a desire humans have for some kind of closure or some kind of aha moments and i just i i don't know i think sometimes it's like a siren song that just leads us to the crash because we just want to be heard and understood so badly and we're just willing to just sacrifice so much to to try to for that illusion you know and it's a myth it's a siren song you think it's more of men that do this or women or is it 50-50 I think it's 50-50 yeah I think it's I mean I don't think either either gender has the market cornered on delusion and on you know men I heard an interesting comment once in my experience has proven it true because I work in the clay of adultery you know that adultery is either a cause or an underlying

symptom of a lot of the marriages that end up in my office. And someone once pointed out to me, and it's absolutely true in my experience, is that when a woman has been cheated on and a man has been cheated on, the question they ask is different. A man asks, did you have sex with him? And the woman asks, do you love her? and that's proven to be true in my experience is that men are very like possessive of a woman's body and possessive of their right to intimacy with her or or the access they have to her as an

intimate partner and women are are more tied to like your bond with me your connection to me your devotion to me your loyalty and love for me and so I think men and women are they engage in that same behavior that same delusion that same but to different ends because with the woman it's like I want to understand how you could do this to me I thought you felt this way and you couldn't feel this way because if you really felt that way you wouldn't do this to me and men it's more obsessive about details like men are just obsessed with the details of infidelity like they are just here's where were they and where what position was it or like well they don't want to know everything they think it's

going to make feel better it never does in my opinion i can't imagine it oh my never does like i don't do you kidding me why would you want to know it's like when guys talk about like a woman's body count like they're like well you know how many women did she's how many men did she sleep with before you i'm like i don't want to know and i don't want to have to tell you how many women i was with before you like i just look we're all born anew in a relationship so you know judge me by how i behave towards you. If I cheated on somebody else, it doesn't mean I'm going to cheat on you. You know, if I was happy

with someone else, doesn't mean I'm going to be happy with you. If I was not like, I don't buy it. So I have a, okay, I wish I hadn't watched that interview because I'm going to ask some of the same questions. I do have,

one of the questions is that, you know, and I already know the answer to this, but it's funny that real quick, I want to mention that, it's something that you had brought up was I think the love thing were like people going out and getting married again right away whatever people asked me like in my own story

when when the girl I was with at the very end of my little being on the run guys are like when you found out that she knew who you were why didn't you leave all I ever have to say is I was in love and every guy is like they they totally like all those rules go out the window the moment you're in love because of that feeling and you know and and and so i would actually overly even simplify it drill it down beyond that

that's even a more complex emotional state like to say i was in love that's sort of like i had rose-colored glasses on you know and that that's when you're wearing rose-colored glasses all the red flags just collect flags you know but i i i jokingly have said that there was a couple of of relationships I stayed in way too long just because they were good in bed. Like, we were just good in bed. Like, honestly, like, I was, I was dating here for a month because I really liked her and thought we were compatible. And then we were together for a year and a half because she, you know, was really good

and bad. Like, that's really, you know, but it's, but it's true. Like, there's so much we will overlook. Like, there's a lot of people that would say, oh, I stayed with this person because they were very reliable or they were very financially secure. Or my parents liked them. Like, people stay in relationships for very odd reasons. You know, sometimes they just have invested so much time.

They're like, I am not. It's like people's investments. You know, I bought this stock a long time. I'm not going to sell it now. And it's like, well, yeah, but you should, you know. Like, but yeah, I think people do, you know, people will under, do understand anyone who's ever been, you know, there are people that say that love is a delusion brought on by inadequate lighting, you know, and anyone who's ever been under the spell of love knows

what it feels like to go, yeah, but that's nothing. No, like, I love this person. Like, you can just overlook everything. But, you know, in my line of work, it's fascinating because it goes the other way fast, which is that same phenomenon that, like, oh, like everything this person does just see it in the best possible light and even the things they do that might be annoying if someone else did them. You're just like, oh, it's so cute. Like she snores. Like it's so cute she snores. Like meanwhile, anybody else would like, fucking stop snoring. Jesus, you know, but like in the early days, like that's just so lovely that this person care. If you're in love with a person, you just don't fucking care, you know. But it goes so easily the other way when the relationship ends, like that they can

do nothing right, that they're just horrible. Like, I've had cases. where you know a client will just like do the right thing like just because it's the right thing to do like they'll be like well no she wants the kids for Thanksgiving so she can have it she's like well you know obviously you gave me them for Thanksgiving because I did you're like dude he just did something nice like just because he cheated on you doesn't mean there's nothing good about him ever like it's just not how it works like people aren't all good and all bad like this is what is this pro wrestling like this is ridiculous like this is real life so um what like what do you have any like all time the worst divorces the like the worst case i mean there's so many the last the last chapter of my book is the final chapter or maybe even be the epilogue is called cannibals and i wrote it about a divorce that was finishing as i was finishing the book and it it was like it had gone on for four years and it they you could actually use that divorce in law school to reverse engineer everything people shouldn't do when they're getting divorced like

they just did everything they could to kill each other in the divorce and ended up just destroying their own lives in the process like protracting it burning millions of dollars in council fees. Like, it was just ruining their children, ruining any goodwill between them. And it wasn't that sexy. Like, it was just a succession of really small bad choices that just led them down this path where they just kept finding the permission of their own conscience to do the wrong thing. And so, in reality, to me, that's the worst. The worst is when people just make these small terrible choices like like you and I are both fit guys you know and I think when you're you know have a healthy lifestyle or healthy body you realize it's it's not like well what did you

eat on Saturday you know whatever you ate one day it's not or if you go on vacation for a week like eat whatever the hell you want on vacation you know it's small choices you make every that do I do my little half an hour workout or hour workout do I try to eat healthy you know most of the time, like, yeah, like that's kind of how you, you don't just gain weight in one day. It's a lot of little stupid bad choices, you know, and you don't get fit in one day. It's a lot of little healthy choices. And it's the same kind of thing. I think that, you know, a lot of these, it's like I, you know, on fire of the vanities, Tom

Wolfe, one of the characters is talking about how they went bankrupt. And he says, well, I went bankrupt the way everybody goes bankrupt very slowly and then all at once and I think that's what happens you know it's most to me the most painful things to watch are people making small bad choices that just lead them down this path of ruin that they don't even realize like it's like when your clothes just start getting tight like slowly it happens so slowly that you're like wait how did this happen you know and I think that to me is the the most holy shit. But most of the time when someone asked, like, I don't really go to parties, but if I went to part, when I used to go to parties, people would say like, oh, what do you

do for a living? Oh, I'm at Borssela. And holy shit, you must have stories. And they don't want to hear that story. They don't want to hear the like small succession of bad choices. They want to hear about the Methodist minister who was like 60-something years old and happily married, but having sex with a 22-year-old Guyanese male immigrant and who then as his defense tried to claim that the sex that they had had was not consensual, meaning that so he was, he claimed that he'd invited this young man over to dinner while his wife was away, just to have dinner with him. And then he was doing the dishes and the guy came up behind him and began having sex with him, but it wasn't consensual. And I said, so are you saying he raped you? And he said,

well, no, I didn't tell him to stop. But I didn't tell him that he could either. So I was like, okay, so you resisted in some fashion. And he said, no, no, I allowed it to happen. I'm like, okay, then it was consensual that. And he's like, well, no, because I didn't explicitly tell him. I'm like, listen, I, as a heterosexual man, if someone came up behind me and started even attempting to have sex with me, I would say, hey, excuse me, I'm not, you know, let's not do this perhaps, you know, like let's just be friends. And, uh, at a minimum, that's how I would handle that. And, uh, and he just, you know, would not, but then it turned out he didn't bezzled a bunch of money from the church. I mean, like, those cases are, I have so many

bizarre, salacious, only like a hundredth of them ended up in the book. Like the, the, the chapter everyone's fucking the nanny um was a true story absolute true story and that that's my one of my favorite stories only because it has a karmic piece to it and that is this guy who was kind of a dick he wasn't my client but i'm not the kind of guy that like if you're not my client you're the dick and my client's the hero like i i acknowledge that i represent good people and bad people whatever i don't wear the white hat you know like i i'm a weapon you know you point me at the person that's a weapon in the hands of a of a good people person can save people and protect people and the weapon in the hands of a villain can hurt

people. But I'm, it's, don't get mad at the weapon. Right. And I, this guy convinced his, they have this very cute nanny from South America. I think she was Brazilian. And he convinced his wife, he's like, let's, let's try to get the nanny to have a threesome with it. And she was like, no, like this is like our nanny. We're paying her. It's inappropriate, you know. And he said, oh, come on, you know, she's cute. She's fun. Like, let's, you know, and he, um, he convinced his wife. And then he went to the nanny and he said to her, look, you know, my wife thinks you're really attractive. And she wondered if we could have a threesome. And so the nanny goes to the wife and says, listen, did you really say this? And she said, yeah, you know, I think it'd be

fun, whatever. So they get drunk and they end up having threesome. And they end up doing this pretty frequently for like six months. And then one day the wife is out and the husband goes to the nanny and is like, hey, what do you say you and I? And she says, no, no, no, I don't want to have a thing with you. It's, you know, either three of us or not or nothing. He didn't like that. But the wife, I guess sometime later that week gets home and the nanny says to her, you know, he tried to sleep with me. And the wife gets very upset about this. The P.S. of this. is within a month, the wife and the nanny left the husband and took the kids and divorced him. And then they subsequently have married each other and are quite happily married and

have custody of the kids. Wow. I did about the threesome gone wrong. I was going to say they first of all, they always go wrong. Like they I don't ever I don't I don't I can't imagine a married couple having a threesome and that marriage gets stronger. a result of it and goes on and becomes super healthy. The only way I've heard a threesome workout is if it's like

both parties are into it and they do it like on vacation with someone they're never going to see ever again. And it's just a thing that happens and it has no connection to their life. Like it's like it's like

on vacation. They did this thing and that's the thing and that's that. And it was something both of them, both of them approached in roughly the same way. Like if one person initiated that conversation, that's the person who there are going to be hurt feelings against that person at some point. But I totally agree. I mean, I totally agree that that is a, it is a red flag when somebody in the relationship goes, maybe we should invite someone else into the bedroom. Hey, so which one of those two couples or which one of those two parties did you represent the husband? The wife. The wife. Oh, the wife.

Yeah, the wife. How did that conversation go? You know, every one of these kinds of conversations goes the same way. And that is that they say to me, you're not going to believe this story or, well, I've got a unique one for you. And I'm like, okay. Like, it never is. It never is. It's like, well, I secretly had two girlfriends or I this.

And I'm like, aha. Like, you don't know how fucking vanilla you are, buddy. Like, this is not like, this is. But this one was different. You're not the first person. this one they said she said it and it was her and her friend so the girl was with her right on the on the on the in the meeting just as though this is my friend whatever name was and I said hi nice to meet you a lot of times people do bring somebody because it's a stressful

scary thing talked to a divorce lawyer the first time and she's telling me this story and I'm thinking okay this is a unique story you know and and I realized that the girl who's with her is the then. Right. And then now that they're together. And I'm, I'm just trying to, but what's interesting is when that happens, you really do have to be sort of, you can't go, fucking really, are you serious? Like, you have to, you know, like, I've all been joked with my law partner that, like, what would happen if somebody was telling us their story and I was going, oh my God, what are you going to do? Like, holy shit. Like, that's nuts. Oh my God. Like, they don't want, like, your lawyer you just want them to just, uh-huh, sure, sure. Okay. And then, uh-huh, yeah, and that happened, sure, sure. Like, you have to, but you develop this. I mean, in court, you know, Your Honor, the suggestion that my client has an alcohol problem is utterly devoid of basis. In fact, this is rote speculation. They're weaponizing this. What about the fact your client out of DWI last week? Last week, yeah, last week. Well, obviously, you know, your honor, listen, no one is impervious from the possibility with the laws being where they are.

in terms of the blood alcohol content, where it is, does that conclusively prove the fact that he's had on one occasion, perhaps one too many drinks and then operated a motor vehicle in order to return home to his children that night? You know, well, it's his fourth DWI, fourth, fourth one, fourth, okay. You go to your honor, who among us has not, you, you just have to find like a way to sort of go like, mm-hmm, sure, yep, keep going, okay, yep. but that is one where as she's telling the story I'm going holy shit this is going in the book

this is something this is this is how I actually got an email from because of course you know as you have a legal edit I had to change names and details right but people still knew who they were and it was all people that like if it was a story like that I always said to the person did you mind if I share this in the book and they were like yeah whatever as long as you change you I gave him the changed version of it. And, you know, she laughed because they're still together and quite happy from what I can tell. You know, sometimes when things are born of these bizarre adverse circumstances, like the bonds that come from that are very deep. So what happened?

So was it, I mean, was it, I'm not, not that, I'm sure there are amicable divorces, right? Like, you've had amicable. Oh, my God, tons of them. Okay. One of them now because you kind of don't hire me if you're having an amicable divorce. There's much cheaper options. It's like if someone comes in and they're having an amiable divorce, I'd send them right back out the door. Like I'll go, here's a mediator.

Here's his number. Go do that. If it breaks down and turns into warfare, call me. But if you get, don't do it, you know, with a chainsaw. If you could do it with a scalpel. Like go, go do it. Go do it the right way. Go do it the cheap way.

Go do it the proper way. Where are you going to keep the goodwill between the two? it's just better on every level to have an amicable divorce and most divorces are amicable with the nanny was that did that end up being amicable oh no no no okay oh i was not there was semi amicable well this is an interesting phenomenon map because you know i like to imagine it's never happened to me but this is a fairly common thing that someone leaves for a same-sex partner. So like a man says, look, I'm gay and he leaves his wife. Or a woman says, listen, I'm in love with a woman and this is how it is. And it's never happened to me, but I'd like

to imagine that if it did, that like, I don't think I'd be as upset. Do you know what I mean? Like if a woman I was in a relationship with said to me, listen, I'm leaving you for another man. that's like I won't one like you but not you right right whereas if you're saying I'm leaving you because I'm in love with a woman it's like all right well I don't even have that equipment so like I feel like I'm fighting biology that I I I'm unequipped to if not right I think you with the same way right like like I don't serve that at this restaurant like it's not that you don't like the restaurant like you want sushi this is a pizza as a bad choice you want pizza and I'm you know know, I'm a Indian restaurant.

Like, so, okay, like, we don't, you know, dislike my food. It's just, this is what you want. It is quite the opposite, really. In real life, people do not handle it, though. Like, because it amplifies, I think, that sense of you lied to me. Like, you lied to me about what you want, which is weird because I don't know that that's always the case. I think sometimes people lie to themselves.

You know, like, I've done. a lot of divorces for men who came out of the closet, and they're like, I was lying to everyone that I was about being gay. I was lying to my family. I was like, like I couldn't face consequences of being gay. Like, I didn't, you know, and I mean, it was a different time, I think, generationally, but like, you find yourself thinking like, all right, I get that, you know, like, I get that. We've all backed ourselves a new corner, you know, at some point in our lives, some more than others. And I get it, you know, like, but in that case, he was so. pissed. I mean, he lost his wife

and he lost his girlfriend, sort of. You know, and he... It was good to care of the kids. And he did it to himself. Right. He did it to himself. Over something fucking stupid. Like, the juice was not worth the squeeze, you know? Like, I really hope you enjoyed those like whatever, seven, eight threesomes that you got to have with the nanny.

Because, boy, did that fucking cost you. Because this was not on his wife's radar. Like, he had to, it took him a couple of months to talk and her into this for this to happen. you know so talk about being an active participant in your own undoing yeah but i think that what's interesting the right response to that i think is to be mad at yourself but there's this human phenomenon where people are like i can't fucking believe what you did to me and it's like you she did to you what did she do you know like i mean that's crazy like you you cause this buddy like

you know play stupid games win stupid prizes like i don't know what to tell you you know yeah there's so many people that typically have the you know inappropriate response to something you know that was a definition you know fuck around and find out like that person fucked around and they found out you know and i think that turn that rage inward because you know you made your choices learn from it for the next relationship so my uh my wife had a question um for you but you've already answered it i just don't think she i think she had walked out when but you're currently single you're not i'm not married you're not married i'm in a relationship yeah oh okay okay yeah i've been in a relationship for for number of years and and i'm very happy yeah

okay but i i i don't and again i i have no critique of marriage i think that you know i understand why people marry and i'm certainly happy that they do it provides job security for me but um i I don't generally feel, because I view marriage differently than other people do, because I see it as a legal status. I see it as a, so I see the nuts. Just like a surgeon looks at a person's body differently, and a car mechanic looks at a car differently. I look at marriage differently.

And so I don't need the government or the state to get involved in the way I interact with another person with whom I romantically involved. But I believe I'm, you know, I'm very much a romantic at heart. I'm very much someone who sees tremendous value in love and I'm a very monogamous guy. I've never been a guy who was interested in running around with multiple people. I enjoy being alone very much, but I also enjoy being in a relationship. I don't cohabitate with my romantic partner. because I like having my own space and she does too and we have a tendency like share we share some space

and then we also have our own spaces so it's kind of a nice thing you know that we have like a shared space together and then we have you know our own places to kind of go back to and retreat to and I like that for me for me that you know for me relationships are about the you the me and the wait. And I think there's a tendency, which is good for my business, but I wouldn't want to emulate in my personal life, to turn the you and the me into the way and let the we just kill the you and the me. But like your wife met you and you're the one she fell in love with. Like this autonomous island, this person, you know, this person that existed before her. And it's wonderful that love transforms us but you know you fell in love with her because she was this other person

this independent entity and so i'm a big fan in a lot of my writing i i just try to encourage people to remember that it's wonderful to grow together and to have intimacy with each other in terms of the ability to be yourself with another person but don't forget who you are and who you were when you met because that's a terrible loss to like i love you so much that i'm going to try to extinguish who you are That seems weird to me. Let this person be who they are. Let them blossom into the fullness of who they are independently. And that doesn't mean you aren't in love.

It doesn't mean you're not monogamous. It doesn't mean any of those things. It just means that you're encouraging this person to be the best, most authentic version of themselves they could ever be. And I can't think of a better compliment at the end of someone's life than to be able to say, this person helped me become the most authentic version of myself. And to me, like I love love. I love being in a relationship. I know I can't learn everything I need to know about myself from myself. I know I can't see my blind spots. That's where they're blind spots. I need someone to help me see them. But I always, for me, want a partner who's

cheering for me. You know, I don't want a partner who's an automatic yes person. But at the core, I really want someone who's like a fan. And when I'm getting it wrong, it's going to say you're getting it wrong but I know you're capable of so much more like you're getting it wrong but you're not a bad person you're just getting it wrong you know and like they're cheering for me and to me that's a beautiful thing but yeah I don't think I'd ever you know legally marry again but I mean listen with a pre-nup like marry as many times as you want I mean nothing more fun than get married the hard part's being getting married is a blast um oh you're what's in the background go Oh, yeah, she's gone.

Yeah, that's good. Normally she would. She knows talking to a divorce lawyer. That's right. She knows she talking to divorce. Listen, what you should do, man, is to keep my card around. Just keep it around. And then if she's ever, you know, not on her best behavior, you sort of go like, yeah, I was talking to sex in the other day, you know, and that's.

See, I, I feel like I'm in a different category. So I met my wife in the halfway. house. And she was getting out of prison. And I was getting out of prison. And we started just after that, like we were flirting in the halfway house. She really fell for me in the halfway house. She doesn't want to admit that, but that's fine. What a name for the, what a name for the book you write at Love in the Halfway House. Falling in the Halfway House. Like that is, well, you know, honestly, I, this is the way I feel is like, you know, she's been beaten up, you know, by society, by, by just life in general.

So her expectations were really low. Like, that's really the place to get one. Because you're going to get a lot for your buck because they're down on their lock. She's living in her dad's spare room. I'm looking pretty good. Yeah. Well, I also think there is something very true

about what you're saying that I think, you know, I don't know if you watched, this is my guilty pleasure. If you haven't watched it, you should. There's a show on Netflix called Love on the Spectrum. Yeah. Have you ever seen? Yeah.

Yeah. Two. I need a couple episodes. I am addicted to the show. And I will tell you why. Because it strips down to the core. These people just want to love someone and to be loved. Yeah.

That's it. There's no, they're not overthinking it because they're kind of not able to. Right. And they're not reading too heavily into anything because they can't. Like they can't read cues properly because they're so on the spectrum. spectrum and they just the joy that they find of like will you be my girlfriend yes will you be my boyfriend yes like okay great i have a girlfriend now okay i have a boyfriend now like there is something about just stripping away all of the other stuff and just going like i love stories of people that

are like dude i fucked up yeah i fucked up too like you want to be fucked up together and figure it out yeah let's do that like let's just hold each other's hand and just walk through this thing and see where we can go and like she's in the background saying you know that's definitely us I mean think about she's living in a beautiful story that's a beautiful story she because you know if you're if you were

the incredibly successful person and she well of course she finds that attractive right like but there are people like I have a buddy from college I just talked to and he's down on his luck a little bit and I helped him with some things and he said to me like oh man you've been so good to me And I said, you know, Mike, you were good to me when there was fucking no reason to be good to

me. Like, I had nothing to offer you. I had nothing. I was broke. Like, I was the guy in college who would, like, go to the diner with everybody and I would eat all their coleslawn pickles because I just couldn't afford food. Like, I literally, I could afford a pack of cigarettes or food. And I'd order, I'd get the cigarettes. Because cigarettes were like a buck 50 a pack back back then. And I don't, I quit smoking many years ago. But I, I look at people. I look at people like that now and I just go like, man, you just loved me when there was no benefit to God. Like there was no like, dude, you on paper when your wife met you, fuck that. Like there's no way. Like you are not the guy. Like you were not the guy. And yet, you know, so now like when

you're ascendant and you like succeed, it's like, well, man, that's a person who like, that is like, I would have such loyalty to that woman. And I'm sure she has such loyalty to you because there was such a like the fuck were you going to get out of that you know like you were like that's amazing like and to me that's where people if they can keep that gratitude that sense of like there are fucking eight billion people in the world and you picked me and you said no I'm in like I'm going to hold your hand and walk into the fire whatever this looks like to me that's like the most beautiful thing like like how do you not love that like I get misty eye you know you're gonna make me cry bro we stop you're gonna make me cry look i might also get you laid

later i mean no this thing in here so this is like you get yeah no i'm either what i mean you're right like i'm i'm living in someone's spare room she's living in her dad's a spare room i'm you know we're both barely making it you know this is right out of the halfway house we're both talking we have to get permission from our probation officers to to date each other i mean it's it's the most pathetic thing you know we're meeting in hotel rooms i'm i'm running my credit cards up you know just to get a hotel room like it was just it and then you know and then it ultimately you know we end up getting you know we end up moving in together we get married we you know so yeah it's it's a I mean that's a great great story though like it is a great story to have someone who and see

that's why to me that I hope look all marriages end they end and death are divorced, but they all end. And everything ends, right? Like, it's very Buddhist of me, but like everything ends, you know? So, like, every story ends the same. Both of you die. So what happens in between is what matters, you know? And to me, like, I wish people could hold on to that.

Like, it sounds like you're both still holding on to that story and that appreciation. like we do it in other relationships like like if you have a dog like people you know there's a lot of people that are dog people i happen to be a dog person and no one has ever looked at like an eight year old dog that they have had for eight years and kind of like i kind of get a new dog i got to get a puppy this fucking dogs all have for like eight years like there's so many cooler newer nicer you know fuzzier looking dogs like you'd never look at it that way you love this thing more and more as time goes on. Like, so why, what is it about romantic relationships that were just so quick to just be like,

oh, this same old meatloaf, like, and not sort of go like, hey, this person is just, you know, they locked in with me, they're riding with me, like they're loyal to me. I'm loyal to them. Like, and that can just be such a, I think, such a beautiful thing. And then if it does end, if you can hold on to, well, we had a great run. You know, like we had a great run. Like I, I look at my ex-wife. We were married 12 years and we loved each other well, you know.

We weren't right for each other for life permanently, but we loved each other well. We did the best we could do at the time. And I'm really glad we were married. And I'm really, I don't look at that and go, that wasn't successful. Like I'd tell my current romantic partner, like, if you broke my heart tomorrow, it had been worth it. It would have been worth it. Like, because, like, one day is the lion, you know what I mean?

Like, I just, like, if I, one, one week of really being loved and really loving someone, break my heart. Go ahead, break it. Like, I got to have that. I got to have that experience. And to me, that's it. Like, that's everything, you know, so I'll never count the cost. Like, and I think that, you know, people like the relationship you have where all you had to offer each other was each other. like that's a really pure thing and that's you know that's a really nice thing and that's that's the

kind of thing that if you can keep that in your line of vision i i don't think you know you ever end up in my office um did you ever see the movie um michael no wait no um city of angels i don't think so well it's basically it's one of the angels decides not to be an angel falls in love and it's um gosh who was it nicholas cage i did see it yeah very at the end he spends one night with her and then she gets hit the next day by a uh a truck and it's over and he that his buddy's there to collect her and he says you know and he's like was it worth it and he says absolutely yeah absolutely and i believe i believe really that that you know all of it is so uncertain. I have learned in my work how fragile love is. And love is never permanently gifted.

It is on loan, you know. And it's either on loan with time, meaning this person will tie someday and be taken from us or I'll tie and be lost to them. Or the love changes and it no longer works, you know, for one or both of the people. But the question is, is like, was it, Was it lovely to be loved and was it lovely to have someone to love? I believe it is. Like, I believe it is. I don't buy into the suggestion that, well, you know, things end this way, so why bother? You know, or you could be hurt.

So why bother? Like, to love anything is just fucking crazy. Like, because to love anything is to accept the inevitability of losing it. But I believe you should love anyway, you know. But I, you know, my favorite poem is a poem. If you've never read it, you should look it up. It's a poem by Joseph Brodsky called A Song, and he wrote it after his wife died. And I won't, you know, but you should look it up.

But the refrain of the poem is, I wish you were here, dear. And it's, I wish you were here, dear, I wish you were here. I wish we sat on the porch and you sat near. It's a very sweet poem. One of the lines is, I wish you were here, dear, I wish you were here. I wish I knew no astronomy when stars appear. And I love that line because the idea that like, if you've ever like studied astronomy, like it takes some of the magic of the stars away, you know, because you're like, oh, that's a flaming ball of gas. That's this many thousands of miles away. Like, whereas otherwise it's like, oh, these little beautiful lights in the sky, you know, like. And I think that doing what I do for a living, it's very easy to just become disillusioned with love and say like, oh, love is like a con. is just a con like it's just the ultimate con but i was just say one of the things you

mentioned in one of the other interviews what was that we know when these people when they're in your office or you know whatever you're you know in the conference room and they're going at it and he says sometimes if you can take them back to when they first met how it they will transform back to that and it it it'll leave you know they go back to that place you know they go back to that place and I and I you know I I definitely think that it's funny I I hate that I'm mentioning all these movies but I'm not very but Lex Fredman and I half the cock we we recorded for five and a half hours he edited down to like four at least two of the hours was that's talking about movies true romance made it in like four other movies made it in there was like 15

that didn't the wedding what about the the wedding crashers love it great at the beginning when they're why they're in their fighting and he's like well what are we doing here come on let's get in here we'll get some strange like you move on you had some fun you made some bad choices together like come on what are you doing like when he gets them to talk about when they first met yeah they immediately started hey okay you go ahead and have that yeah you're right no no that's what happens it's the truth because we get so invested in the conflict that it takes on a life of its own and you forget that we loved each other like there's a poem i see, we keep bringing up movies, I keep bringing up poems. There's a poem that's called One Last Poem for Richard. And I forget who wrote it. You can look it up. But it's a poem this woman wrote to her ex-husband. And it's just basically says, well, I think it's actually over now, Richard.

Like, and you've stormed out and you've stormed out before. But this time, you know, you took your keys or whatever. And there's a line in it where she says, you know, we, we, something along the lines is that we loved each other as best we could, you know, and that there should be stars for wars like ours and champagne for the survivors, you know. And I really believe that like, if you kidding, you know, when you look back on a breakup 10 years later, you look at it with such a helicopter view and like it's so much easier. I'll tell you funny story.

So I saw, I was in therapy for, you know, quite a bit of my 30s and 40s. And then my therapist, you know, basically like retired. And so I had to find, I went without being in therapy at all. And then I said, oh, you know, I'd want to go back into therapy. So I went to go find a new therapist. Now, I'd been with this other therapist weekly for like 20 years. So this person saw me through a divorce. the death of my mother, like my children growing, going off to college, so many things, you know.

So now I'm sitting down with a brand new therapist and I'm giving them sort of the cliff notes of my life. And I thought to myself as it's coming out of my mouth like, holy shit. Like this is just like a couple of sentences. Like, yeah, I was married for 10 years and then we got divorced and um my son like dude like your whole thing like everything you said in your soft wet underbelly interview your prison everything it's like three sentences right like three sentences like if there's a Wikipedia page of you it's like a paragraph it's it and me well you were in it like you were in it you went through it you had the long nights you had the near misses you at all like and so to me like if you can find a way cognitively to get to that place sooner

where you can look at it and go, all right, let's look at it in the totality of the circumstances and let's have a little emotional distance from it and put it in context. But that's a very hard thing to do without time, lots of time. That's why would they say, like, time heals all wounds. Like, yeah, because time puts things in context, you know. So, like, if you were meant to marry your wife and that was your destiny, you know, to love her and to be loved by her, right? And to have something with her. Well, then you never would have done that if you hadn't done every fucking wrong, bad, illegal, crazy thing you did. And if you hadn't got caught, you owe the people who arrested you, the people responsible for you, you owe them a debt of gratitude. Because

if you hadn't made every one of those choices and every one of those things hadn't happened, you wouldn't have been in that exact halfway house at that exact moment and the same thing's true it further. So I don't know to me, like that tapestry is so cool, you know, like to look at and to go like, so that's why when people get or getting divorced, like, I'm always like, why can't you just approach the, like, hey, this is what happened. This is what it is. Like, see it clearly. Like, we don't know if this is good or bad, but it is. It's, it's, you know, there's a, there's a saying someone said to me once, I love it, which is, if you don't learn to find joy in the snow, you will have less joy.

in your life and precisely the same amount of snow. And I think that that's the truth. Like, if you don't learn to find joy in the pain that's coming at you, then you'll have less joy in your life and precisely the same amount of pain. So you just have to make the choice to just go, okay, this is part of whatever. The universe is planned, God's plan, whatever you want to call it, karma, fate, you know, whatever. Like, it is what it is.

And I think if people could connect to that the right way, I think I'd be out of the job at some point. I don't think it's happening soon. I was going to say there. I did a podcast the other day with someone we were talking about Sam Bankman-Fried. Sure. From FD. Yeah, and we were talking about like what's prison going to be like for him. And I was explaining where he would go depending on the time, you know, we're going back and forth.

and, you know, how bad will it be? And I was like, well, you know, here's the thing. If he's lucky, you know, it'll take whatever, you know, well, part of the problem is he's going to be, but you know, part of the problem is obviously he's going to file, you know, he's going to appeal it. He's going to, so he'll have a couple years of hope. Yeah.

Which really is a problem. Because it keeps, it doesn't really make you realize I have to make a life in here. So, but once he gets past that and his expect. of life are dropped dramatically. And he realizes I'm going to do some time. Is he even federal time? He's definitely federal. Yeah, he's.

Yeah, it's federal. Okay, because I was going to say, because a lot of the problems my clients have is they end up in county while everything is pending. And actually, there's so much more in prison, like in state prison, there's so much more in terms of resources and shit to do and quality of life to some degree. There's a lot more violence sometimes, too, but, but there's certainly. Certainly, like county, if you stay in county, you're getting like, you know, additional credit for that time. But like I didn't, with federal, it's obviously it's a different animal.

Yeah. Well, I mean, for right now, he's still in like the U.S. Marshall's holdover. So it's basically county. It sucks. Now, it's a better quality of criminal, but not that much great, better. So my whole thing was once he goes to prison is that I was saying, look, at some point, you know, once he realizes, once he, I don't have access to this and this and this. And I basically have to make a life in here and I have to get a job. And I have to keep myself occupied and those sort of things.

And I was like, at some point he'll get a group of friends. He'll get a group of guys that are like-minded that he can talk to, that he can hang out with. And if he can, you know, obviously the first part is that, hey, I made some mistakes. Like, that's a huge thing. Like going to prison is probably the only time I really stepped back and not just said, yeah, yeah, I've, you know, I broke the law. But really stepped back and said, wow. you're kind of a scumbag, bro. Like, like, you've done some really shitty things, you know, and, and stopped, you know,

where you basically justify, stop justifying everything, making it okay and just step back and said, hey, you're just not a good person. Like, what you've done is fucked up. But once you get, if you can get to that point, and then I was saying that at some point, though, you'll be surrounded by a bunch of guys, you'll be playing a board game or doing whatever you're doing you will be laughing your ass off about something or talking to somebody and in the middle of that if in that at that moment you'll realize like this is a great guy like these are great guys like this is a great moment i this there's nowhere i'd rather be right now like right

this is great and you know if he's lucky he gets there i'm like because that i think really that's when you realize that you can be okay and anywhere anywhere you know and and it's a great because it wasn't until i think i got to prison you know and did all of those things and got out of prison that i can kind of say like i'm i'm a different person that i was when i went into prison you know myself different and the things that i did when i went in not that i'm not that i'm saying i'm low and now i'm a really good person but what i'm saying is at least i can look at myself and say here are my personality defect. Yeah. Well, and I think you have a lot less to be afraid of. Because I think when

if horrible things happen or, you know, credibly traumatic things happen, you realize like the human capacity for pain, the human capacity for endurance is like so much greater than you'd think. Like, like you survived very, very difficult things. Like you're, you know, and you, you know, I imagine that there's a period of time. I don't know how long it lasts, but, you know, I just got over COVID. First time, I ducked it for almost four years and got it for the first time three weeks ago. I was quite sick for about a week. Half my voice is still kind of weak.

That's why I keep coughing as I'm still getting over it. I'm negative, I think. But, you know, the first four days I could literally could not breathe through my nose and my throat's killing me like you wouldn't believe. And I remember laying in bed and thinking, oh, my God, if I could just breathe through my nose again, I would be so happy. Like, I'll be so grateful. And I have to tell you for about a week after I could breathe through my, I every day got up and was like, oh, my God, I can breathe through my nose. Like, it is going to be a good day.

It is going to be a good day because I can breathe through my nose. I know in like three weeks, I'm just going to go back to me in the ungrateful fuck I am. Like, I'm just not going to get up in the morning and go, I can breathe through my nose. look at that look at that you know good day it is a good day like I'm sure there was a time where you woke up and we're like oh my god I'm not in jail this is awesome you know like my wife and I are I feel like I'm still like that there that is and that's a gift man that's a super good it is somebody cuts you off that there's a moment where I'm like whoa and then I'm like you go ahead and get in go ahead buddy you're a bigger rush than me yeah I get it let me let me take

that is a superpower. Listen, and I always say people have no idea. They have no idea. Like, they have no idea how good they have it. Like, this is a magic box. Like, you have no idea. You can turn the TV. You can eat what you want.

You go to bed when you want. You can, you decide to work. You decide that, like, you, like the choices that people complain about are such gifts. And they have no idea how good it is. Yeah, how bad it could be. Well, there's a line to go to movies. There's a line in Fight Club where Tyler Durdon says to the main character, where you are now, you can't even imagine what the bottom would be like.

Like you can't even imagine what the bottom would be like. Like most people, the shit they complain about, most like I remember when I trained Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for many years and I've been to Brazil several times to train. And one time we were training at a boxing gym inside the convention. Contangelo favela. And you can't even go in the favelas, particularly the contangelo favela. It's where City of Angels, City of God came from. City of God was a very good film about.

Yeah, I remember. Okay. So it's run by drug cartels. It's like if you went in, you'd just get killed. You either get killed or robbed or both. But the guy we were with who runs this boxing gym that's like for the kids in the favela is like he's a protected guy. So if you're with him, no one's going to no one's going to.

bother you. So there's a big group of us and we're with this guy and everyone's just leaving us alone. And I walk through there at the level. I mean, there's just human sewage running through the things and see like a little kid like dirty like playing with a doll's head, like a broken doll's head. Like I'm looking at this and going like the poorest person on Skid Row is doing so much better than anyone in this place. Like the wealthiest person. in this favela. And we just don't, like, we're still so fucking unhappy so much of the time. So I think when we can have that approach to life of, like, gratitude, like a lot of what I do for a living, people's dissatisfaction with their marriage is a function of how

fucking good we have it, that we just don't realize how good we have it. Like, it does not have to be like we could just be so grateful for what we have and we choose not to be we choose not to be and it's to our own detriment to our own poverty but yeah look I think there's something to be said for you know for for reminding yourself that you could do with a lot less and still survive and that you would still find moments of joy you know that my father is a Vietnam veteran and he used to say how, you know, in the middle of like this horrible setting, there were these moments of levity and joy, you know, where like, you know, and I found that in my own parenting journey, like, I remember I used to, I used to like want to bond with my sons, you know, I was

a divorced dad and I wanted to like spend time with them and feel connected to them. And I would like, I'm going to make this for dinner and then we're going to do this. And it would never end up the way I wanted it to. I would never feel the way I wanted it to. And then like every once in a while, like I just wouldn't have a plan and they'd be over and I'd be like, you want to go outside and throw the frisbee? And he'd be like, yeah, sure. We go outside and throw the frisbee and all of a sudden they're talking to me and like telling me about their day and we're laughing. And I'm like, holy shit, this is the thing I was trying to engineer. Like it's just happening, you know. And I actually used that metaphor. I was talking to a friend the other day about sex, how

you know all of us have had the experience where we we're like we're going to have like a sex night you know tonight like we're going to get you know like she got the lingerie or you got the dinner and the candles or whatever you like make and then it's good but it was like yeah you know like it was like a little overhyped in your head or whatever and then we've all had the experience where it was like a random Tuesday where you didn't even think you were going to have sex and then the two of you when you finish go what the fuck was that and you go like yeah I don't know I was who the stars aligned or I don't know what that was but where did that come from like and it was just like so good and if you tried to have it be that good or hyped it up of like you know what's going to happen this afternoon like it would be different but the fact that it just like organically happened is so and I think that that is there's something to learn there you know that like you can just sometimes the trying to make the thing happen prevents the thing from happening. and sometimes just letting it, you know, let it enfold you, you know, let it wash over you.

And I think if you, if you let it wash over you, it unfolds you, like sometimes there's tremendous joy that's just waiting, you know. What, I mean, in your book, do you go over, I mean, I mean, you kind of said it already, but do you go over, discuss, what, what is your, what is your, bleh let me try and say that sure why do you feel like most marriages end

I think it's I think it's like bankruptcy I think it's very slowly and then all at once I think it's disconnection I think I think if we just took little steps every day

to remember for ourselves and remind our partner that we love them and we chose them that we would never end up in my office, but it's little things. So the challenge I give to my male friends is to leave your wife a note just every day or a couple times a week, just leave her a note, like a little note, just so glad we had that date on the couch last night.

I'm married to the prettiest girl in the world. You know, can't wait to see you again. text don't leave it text don't count just leave it you know what text might count no text could listen you send her a text that says let you know i had such fun hanging out with you last nighter you got to know you got you got you got you got to know by right yeah you got you got to know they count i think the hand i think there's something about a note because then they could you know why they like shoes so much just so they can keep the fucking boxes and keep every card we ever gave them and every note we ever gave them i think that's the truth because you know

you like a girl breaks up with a guy and it's like you know fine screw you know girl guy breaks up with a girl it's there's you can better tuck in for a day because there's good testimony and evidence you know they're going to be like what about this card i've marked for exhibit a that you gave me a valentine's day did you not say that you love me and would love me forever i don't say that well well here's the card you set it in the car so that's why they keep all that stuff in shoeboxes but i i really do think that that if you leave a note or if there's just some small mindfulness that the connection that builds even from that like the first few days most of my friends have been like yeah she wanted to know if i was

cheating on her like she was like what the fucker why are you leaving me notes like what are you doing you know what's your agenda but after a while like most people i think figure out that like if you're really most women if you ask them in my experience do you want four hours with me where I'm pretty distracted, checking my phone and kind of half there but half not. Or do you want an hour where you have my undivided attention and you are the only person in the world and the only thing they will hand seven days a week and twice on Sunday. They will take the hour instead. Like so I think there is something to be said for just real small intimacies.

Like intimacy, we mistake. Sex is a form of intimacy. but intimacy is defined as the ability to be completely yourself with another person. And so, to me, I think the thing you can do to prevent ending up in my office before all the cheating and the financial, like all that shit is a side effect of the underlying problem. The underlying problem is disconnection because at some point you were deeply connected. Just like at some point, you were deeply grateful you could breathe through your nose or you're deeply grateful that you weren't in prison anymore.

Like at some point, you looked at this woman and you went, holy shit, I can't believe what I'm going to get with her. I can't believe it. Like, I can't believe. Like, she's fucking giving me the time of day. Like, this is incredible. And she was looking at you going, oh, my God, I can't believe I found this guy. I can't believe this is the guy.

Like, this is the guy. And she's still that person. You're still that guy. Like, you just forgot. Like, it's just not in your line of vision. So to me, anything you can do that puts. that person back in your line vision, whether it's just reminding that person of a memory. Like what, I mean, what do you have to lose? What does it cost? Like, what would it cost you

to say to your wife after this call, you know, hey, babe, remember that time where we did da-da-da-da-da-da, and we did this and da-da-da-da. That was great. Like, I think about that sometimes. Like, that's such a low percentage move. It didn't even cost a penny. It is. And I notice that periodically we do that already. And you're right. Every time we've been, we've done that, there is this kind of moment, you know, that last, that honestly sometimes can change that the remainder of the day. Right. Right. If, you know, she's putting on chapstick and she'll say, do you remember we, that night we first met and we kissed so much like, I, We couldn't see each other for four days because I'm like, oh, yeah, all right. And we were talk about and joke and laugh about that first on how bad it was.

And then the next day, we're an hour later, you kiss her again. And you go, you know, I still really like kissing you. We don't kiss as much as we did those first days, but you know, I still really like it. Like, there is something about that that's so real and transformative and beautiful and honest. Like, it's honest because it's not like you ever stopped loving this person. And it really is that you just, the world gets in the way, it gets distracting, you get caught up in other things, you want to be a good provider, you want to be a good partner, or you want to deal with all the shit that's going to make sure the turkeys comes out right or you want to whatever, you know, like the truth is, like at the end of the day, like I said, there was 8 billion people in the world and picked each other. And like, I just believe that there's so much value in, I even have friends who have taken the ideas from my book and built it in. into their routine. So, like, I have a friend who he, they go for what they call a walk and talk

and they do it every, like, Saturday or Sunday. And they build into that telling the other something they did that they really liked that week, you know, and or if there's something that they went the other way, they'll sometimes work that into, but it's usually they make a point of saying like, oh, you know, I felt really loved when you did A, B, and Sate. And I think that's such a cool thing because I know sometimes, like, I think I know everything and I know I don't, you know, and I think I understand my partner, but I know sometimes I probably don't, like, we're a different species to some degree, you know?

Right. And when sometimes she'll say to me something she liked that I did, and I'll go, that? Like, I didn't even, you know, like, oh, you. you went and you took the recycling and didn't ask or you know like you always oh you made my tea and you like left me the tea you know and it's like that like that was such a nothing throwaway thing or oh you asked about how my sister's doing you know and like you know I thought it was so sweet that you said that you know and I'm like really like I'm I'm like planning on like buying some

shit to give to you and thought that was going to impress you and this impressed you like it's my sister's six years older than me and I remember when I was a like young guy and she was like at her college age for a little older. I would listen to her talking with her girlfriends. And the stuff that they would say they liked about a guy, like I remember being like, I should make this down. This is fucking not what we thought. Like it's rarely were they like, N.S. an eight pack. Like we're not about that. They were like, yeah, he's like so like, you know, he listens to this and he said this. I'm always like, oh, okay. So like they're way more impressed by that, you know, like. And so it's a very, I really think.

sharing with your partner no one likes like no one ever dislikes being told but they did well you know like no one dislikes being told you did a great job right like so saying to someone like oh i loved when you did x y and z like constructive criticism is still just criticism well you mentioned you mentioned in another interview where you said that you had the one client and she said she knew she knew it was basically was that going her the marriage was over or going downhill when the husband stopped eyeing the granola bar or the granola. Yeah, granola for her yogurt. Which was something that was so silly and small.

But it wasn't. But it wasn't. It was a symbol. Huge. Yeah. Right. It was an indicator. It was the canary in the coal line.

You know, like it was the thing. Like the granola showed you were paying attention. And when the granola stopped, it was an indicator that you're not fucking paying attention anymore. You know? And that is why, like, to me, do you just let that go? Or do you go, okay, wait, let's fix this before it becomes a real problem? Like, that's why the title of my book is, if you're in my office, it's already too late. Like, if divorce is anything other than a passing thought you occasionally have when

your spouse does something particularly boneheaded, like that, you know, most of the time, like, you know, if it's already in my office, it's bad. you know, it's better to just, we all have moments where we just feel disconnected from our part, where we feel disconnected from ourselves and therefore also our part. And that's the time to try to lean into finding some connection. And it's so easy. Like, it's so easy to feel connected. It's so easy to honestly tell your partner the things they do right, you know, the things they do well and let those wins build on top of each other. You know, and I've always said like this is a leverage that people don't exert enough because it's so easy.

Like, it's so easy to, you can tell your spouse all the things that you wish they would do or that they don't do that you really wish they would do. Or you can criticize the things. Like, why? Like, that's not going to help. You know, why not parse it in a way that leans into the positive? You know, like, I've always said, like rather than criticize, if there's something you want to do in bed with your partner,

rather than like, you know, just calling an audible in bed and trying it, you know, and just freaking everybody out. Like, you know, there's ways or saying like, how come we never, blah, blah, blah,

which then is setting it up for them to explain why we're not doing that. Or making them feel like they've done something wrong by not doing that. Why not go, you know, I had the hottest dream about you the other night. It was crazy. Really? What was going on?

I was real. I don't even know where a kid. But we were doing, not something we normally would do. What was it? And then it's like, really? Yeah, was that something you're like, I don't know. In the dream, pretty good, you know? Like, we've never done it.

Remember we used to do that kind of dream about it? It was like, ooh, it brought me back to how good that was when we used to do that. Who's not going to jump on board? Who's not going to go like, oh, yeah, I could do that. Like, you know, like, because it's, it's so subtle of a distinction, but it's a real distinction. Right. I think you're going to stay out of my office. I got, I got, I got, I got, I got, I got, I got, I got a good feeling.

I got, listen, the whole time, I, it's just the, I'm getting the little, little tiny, little bits and pieces of, yeah, uh-huh. I'm sending her an inscribed copy of the book. Oh, nice. I'm going to say, I'm going to say, you don't need this book, but I hope you like it. What, what is it? Oh, my God. male you had confirmed it. You had read LV at all.

It was a gender thing. Oh my God. This is me mansplaining it. I mean you know I I think there's a lot of female

divorce lawyers but I'm the only one who wrote the book so it's a weird thing. It was such a good to know that both of us you know, it's good to know both genders see some of these same things. You know, I think these are human things. Like, I don't, I don't think that, I even think they're true of, you know, same-sex couples. Like, I think it just has to do with human connection. I mean, even a lot of the things I've said, they don't even just apply to romantic relationships. They reply to, you know,

they apply to any number of types of relationships, you know, interactions with family members, interactions with business colleagues. Like, I think a lot of it's just how we relate to another human being. It's hard to navigate yourself, you know, much less another person, you know. So I just think it can be such a lovely thing to to leverage those good things, you know. That's such a such a, I have, for a divorce lawyer, I have an abundance of optimism. Oh, listen, what a mistake it was to mention. Yeah. When she was leaving and she said, so.

Oh, no. And she said, so are you, what are you doing today? I said, oh, I have a, I have a podcast. I said, you know, I said, it was this attorney. I said, I said, we were supposed to do it before. And then he had a, he had a trial that went longer. And then she's like, who is it? And I explained, oh, okay, next thing I know.

Suddenly she's around. See that? Oh, and she just said she watched your soft white underbelly. Oh, boy. A long time ago. Okay. Oh, boy. In the back.

But, you know, here's the thing, you know, just to let you know, She's, unlike you and I, she'll watch, she also watches the, you know, the fit and all ones, the, I can't, and I mean, we'll be at the gym. We wake up around, around four and we go to the gym around like, say, five, five. Well, you and I are in the same, same, same, same, we're on the same habits, you and she'll, you know, she listens to, she'll listen to, she'll listen to the drug addicts and the this and she just, oh, my God. And I'm like, how can you watch those? yeah oh okay well okay she said no i know she didn't usually watch all of them all the way through but she will watch it's like me i watch some of it and i it i watch enough to remind me how god damn lucky i am yeah you know and and um and also i can tell sometimes like if there's a redemption arc like because the part that's hard for me is like like i can i'm a animal person so like i can watch the thing about we found this abandoned dog and it was near death's door and it had been terribly abused and then it got rescued and now it's doing so great like that I can watch that

shit all day long but if it's like and it was abused and terrible and yeah it's still kind of fucked like okay well I don't want to like now I'm just leaving feeling terrible like so I think if it has a redemption arc it's easier to get through you know but listen those kinds of human stories are are amazing but yeah next time if you know if we have another conversation you just have to tell her that like oh yeah I'm meeting with a dude who uh I don't I don't know, mix the shit up. You're like, I just out of, make me a boring white collar criminal. Yeah, I'll, like an empezzler or something like that.

Ponzi scheme guy is not in. Yeah, but it's another one of these Ponzi guys. You know how it is, you know, yeah, you tell her you're talking to a divorce layer, he's going to be hovering nearby, you know. Why did you write your, I mean, obviously like you're, I'm, I'm, this may be an assumption, but, you know, I'm assuming you obviously have a very, a successful practice. Just, you know, you're doing, you're doing well, like, why? Oh, yeah, I made no mind.

I mean, the book, you know, you make it like a six-figure advance, but your aging gets a third, and government gets their piece of it. So I joke that I make more in a month than I did. As a divorce lawyer, I make more in a month than I did the whole book. Like, you make nothing on books, and you do very well as a divorce lawyer. No, I did what I did. I wrote the book because I'd been doing the same job for 20 years at that point. and as much as I really love my work, it just felt a little like the same thing every day. And I love to read, and I'm a big reader, a voracious reader.

And I was listening to an interview with Stephen King. And they were asking him how he manages to write like three books a year. And he said, well, if you write a page a day in a year, you have a book. And I thought, well, I could probably write a page or two every day. And I'm like you, I get up at 4 a.m. every day. And I usually have about a half an hour that I drink my espresso. I check email. I kind of just sit there and stare into the middle distance. And then I go to the gym. And because gym doesn't open until 5. So instead, I just would write a little bit during that window. I would get up, have a little espresso. I'd write. And sometimes I'd write a page. Sometimes I'd write 10 pages in that 45 minutes. But within like four months, I had a book. Yeah. And, you know, I gave it to a friend who's a writer.

And he read it and he was like, yes, it's great. He's like, let me, let me, you know, you should send it to some agents. And I found a literary agent, Richard Pine and Inquell. And I sent it to him and he liked it. At the time, it was just a book of stories about divorces. It was not a self-help book. It was not relationship advice book. It was just like stories.

And he said, this is really good. I think it would be better if it was like a self-help book, if it was the themes and then the stories backing up the themes or illustrating the themes. And so that's what I changed it to. And we shopped it out to a bunch of publishers and McMillan, Henry Holt was the one that we got a couple of offers, but McMill and Henry Holt picked it up. And they had the creative team that I really liked. It was an all-female editorial team at the time.

And I thought that was really cool because it was a great. It was a male perspective, and I didn't, because it was very much tied into like male-female relationships, I didn't really want it to get into like a misogynistic tone. I wanted it to be something that was, it had some female influence. So having an editor, Serena Jones, who's still with Henry Hulk, Macmillan, she was a great editor because she saw things that I didn't see because I had my blind spots as a guy. and she brought asked interesting questions that I would then jump in to try to answer and yeah the book um it's been a fun little footnote you know but it my job's a full-time job and then some i mean being a

divorce lawyer is like the law is a harsh mistress like i work all the damn time so um i say no to about 90% of the media requests that i got i once soft an underbelly hit i got invited on no joke at least a hundred other podcasts, you know, and I've turned a lot of them down because a lot of them it's just me saying the same stuff over and over to someone who just wants content and has no real point of view that's in any way tied to what I'm doing. I was excited to do this because I've enjoyed your show and I do enjoy your show as a consumer. And, you know, I, again, you were one of the few Soft Wide Underbelly interviews I watched all the way through. And I saw so much commonality in the way we, our work, for me, my work is a lawyer for you. At one time,

you're more illicit work. And now I think your work doing, doing the interviewing that you're doing and doing the perspective and writing that you're doing. Like, we have to put ourselves in another person's mindset and shoes and try to understand the levers of persuasion. And, like, I think that's a very interesting thing. So I'm really glad we had a chance to chat. You know, I was looking forward to meeting you. Yeah. And I'm, I definitely want to meet your wife at some point now. I feel like I know her because she's, she's the third interview. She's, yeah, she's a character.

I mean. She's married to you. She'd have to be. Yeah. So, I mean, you know. I was, uh, definitely. So I, so she was in the military, got out, got married, was a hog. A tour guy, I always say hog hunting.

Basically, a hog hunting tour guide for six years with her ex husband, where they took people out and they haunted. They hunted hogs and gators and things like that in Florida. Then, you know, then she ended up, they got, you know, they got divorced and they, you know, went their separate ways. They got hooked on, you know, drugs. And she ended up in a meth conspiracy. End up getting five years going to prison, getting out and meeting me. But so are, our, our, we have a very, in some ways we have very traditional roles. And in some ways, it's like, I tell you, out of, I take, I take the garbage out once out of every probably 10 I you know

my old car breaks down she pulls out the jumper cables and jumps it I say she says hey you're she's a she is a marine mechanic so she works on boat engines so you can you know you are never going to be bored my friends

you are you have you've got a wellspring of knowledge and experience on tap right there I mean that is so it's You don't meet a hog hunter that often. Do you know what I mean? It's just not a, you know, a marine repair person. These are not traditional. Her dowry would have been significant, you know what I mean?

In olden times, that is impressive. Oh, yeah. Big on the, if the grid goes down, like, worry, well, I can hunt and I can, and I'm like, I'm not worried. I'm not worried about the grid going down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're like, I would prefer the grid going down. further grid not go down let's let's work on that on that yeah let's focus on that yeah you see like

if there's a if there's a nuclear attack i'm like look i want to be under the bomb yeah yeah i want to be i want to even not know what happened why i want to be lights out yeah me too in the walking dead she's one of the survivors in the walking dead i feel like i want to the walking dead oh for sure for sure oh yeah no i'm definitely the guy that's like nope sorry not sticking around for this yeah i don't I'll see how this ends. Yeah, well, listen, man, I, I, I, I would not expect you to be married to anyone boring. And I would not expect anyone particularly boring to want to be married to you. So it sounds like, um, it sounds like you've made good choices.

So, yeah, hopefully. Well, I, I, I clearly have to. I'm going to have to get a notepad or something. Get a notebook. It's worth it. It's a small investment. You know what? You know what?

I've already done that. And I'm going to let you go. I'm going to give me one more minute. I'm going to listen. She and her father went to visit relatives, and I took notes because she wanted my book to read my book. And I actually took and wrote notes and stuck it like every 10 or 20 pages of the book. Right.

Right. This is how I know. Why read my book? Why did you do it? Because I was, you know, so in love and I wanted it. I thought it would be sweet. I knew she'd love it. I think out of 10 notes, I think she read maybe three.

Well, I mean, A, next time write a more interesting book. You know what I mean? I mean, that's on you. You know, she only got through the first. That great word you. What happened is Matt is she put it down because she picked up my book. And she just was like, I got it. This book is much more interesting than Matt says she's buying your book right now.

Oh, I'll say it's all I need. This is the, this was a mistake. Matt, you got no one to blame it yourself. you're like this whole thing was a mistake this is a terrible I'd be a terrible decision would be the worst decision you've ever made that would be a real that would be an accomplishment you know what I mean

yeah yeah and anyone who served time and I'm their worst mistake probably really impressive yeah my booking agent constantly is mentioning you know he'll give me people and I'm like he's like hey what about this guy I'm like did that guy commit a crime and he's like

well no but he this but he that I'm like okay stop bringing me people that didn't commit a crime or aren't in law enforcement. That's it. And then when he called up and said, he said, listen, you know, I have James Saxton and I was like, yeah,

well, sorry, what, sex thing, pardon. Common statement. Sorry. And, and I had, it was, I did mention to him that I think you're, this was like a month or so before that. And yeah, he, and I was like, he's like, but you know, he hasn't committed a I was like, I don't care.

Yeah. I don't. Well, I haven't, I haven't been incarcerated for any of them. There you mean, I are caught for any of them. We've all committed crimes. This is a question of, you know, which, which ones have we been caught up? But yes. No, I think, uh, listen, man, I, like I said, I was excited to do this.

I'm glad we got to me. I, uh, I, I felt as, as I think you've gone through, you know, when, when you give a long form interview like that and then you get the kind of views that you and I both got in our interviews. Like a lot of people know a lot more about you than you do about them. You know, like, oh, yeah, I, I, there's 25,000 comments on my video. Like, and I can't possibly read them all. I've read, like, 10 of, and all these people know a lot about me now.

Because I talked about a lot of stuff, just like you talked about a lot of very personal stuff. So it's very funny because I felt like I know you a little bit. Like, I was like, ooh, Matt, yeah, definitely want to do that. Like, I've listened to that guy talked like longer than I've listened to all. lot of people talk in my life, you know, so I was excited to do it. But yeah, man, no, this is big great. And like I said, I love your show. I really enjoy it. I enjoy the people that you talk to. And I think you have a really cool point of view. And this conversation went in the directions

I thought it would because I didn't know too much about your personal life in terms of your current marriage and you're the way you approach it. You mentioned it a few times on the show, but not not too many um and and i think it's it's uh it's really neat that there that you have the gratitude that you have and that you and she found each other in the circumstances that you did um and that that hopefully you guys you know keep that in your line of sight you know and i'll be cheering for you certainly listen always the thing that takes you down my my wife is in the other room and she goes i hope you're recording oh yeah i know this is my problem. When I talked like Mark, I met I met Mark in the in the bar of like the W

hotel in the city. And we started talking for like 15 minutes. He goes, I do we got to go upstairs and put the camera on because like this is we're missing stuff right now. But yeah, I was on I was on Mark's site as a fan and watched all of his stuff. And my secretary comes in. She goes, yeah, Mark, a guy named Mark called from something soft belly, some kind of soft belly. And I I actually like dogs a lot, so I contribute a lot to dog rescues. So she's like, is that like a dog rescue you donate to, like soft belly? And I was like, no, no, no, there's a website that it's like, it's like true stories. I said, I don't know.

And I thought, wow, he's like, did my credit card get declined that he's like making his own phone calls for the $5 a month thing? Because that feels a little desperate. And so I call and I'm like, hi, it's Jim Sexton. And he's like, hey, it's Mark Leatt from SoftBetter, and I recognize the voice. Yeah. I was like oh wow how you do it he goes good good listen I wanted to see about you coming on the show I said well you know I'm not a sex worker a fentanyl addicts right and he goes yeah yeah I'm trying

to branch out a little bit there's only so many of those you can do and I said yeah I said if you think there's anything anyone to be interested in you know I'd be happy to do it and he goes no I think you have some interesting stuff so I went in and I met with him and I just you know you've done it so you know you just go in and he's such a great conversation but he's good at kind of queuing it. And the way he has the room set up, you kind of forget that you're not just talking to somebody. And I just, you know, went. And we finished. And I said, well, how long was that? He said, oh, it was about an hour and a half. I said, wow, it didn't feel like that. And he said, oh, my God. He goes, we could have done another two hours. And I said, well, I hope, you know, it was good. The next day, he text me. And he said, you know, that was one of the best interviews I've ever done. And I think it's going to do really well. And I thought, oh, I bet he says that to all the boys, you know. I was like, I bet that's just the thing he says.

Sorry, back and I said, well, it was great to meet you. And I'm a big fan of the site. And, you know, so I just left it. And about three, four days later, we said, look, it's going up this week. And I'm telling you, we're going to get four million views. And I said, I really, I think you might be overestimating how interesting I am, but let's do it. That's great, you know? And within like two weeks, it had a million and a half.

And then it was up to two or three or three. now it's almost at four. And it's a couple of months, three months. So yeah, it's crazy. I mean, I think there are, I think he's telling unique stories. And I think, you know, it's the reason why I enjoyed watching yours is that I just think that unique lived experience of that kind presented in an unfiltered way. You just can't beat that, you know. And I guess what I do is interesting. For me, you know, whoever discovered water, it wasn't a fish. Like, I'm in the thing. I don't see it. It's just what I do. But every once in a while, there is this phenomenon where I'll be talking to someone and I'll say, oh, I have this trial next week and

they're like, what's it about? And I'm like, oh, this guy was sleeping with the nanny and then the nanny, you know, ran off with his wife because they'd had a threesome and, you know, and they're looking at me like, what did Jesus? And I go, oh, yeah, no, I guess that, yeah, I guess that is kind of weird, right? Like, I guess that is a thing. Like, but to me, it was like, well, it's a fact pattern and how am I going to put this evidence in and like i don't get it that way you know i i i don't hear how interesting it is so i i don't think much of what i have to say i used to joke with my publisher that my book should have been titled you know advice i just pulled out of my ass because it felt like it's like

well yeah like talk to your partner you know like try to communicate try to do the little things for them so that you don't ever get too far apart from which this didn't feel like anything revelatory you know but but apparently there's a hunger for it out there so i'll take it yeah i was i was gonna say way at the end of my interview with mark he said um you know i was like okay and you know he's like oh you know well thanks you know well thanks i really appreciate him like and i'm getting off the thing and as i was getting off he said uh you're getting off the stool i'm kind of trying to take the you know my mic off he said he said yeah i definitely think i'm going to use this and i at was there a question was there a question and he goes oh yeah he said I do I do he said at this

point I'm up to doing two or three a day you'd be shocked how many I don't use and I'm thinking I flew across the country like he's like yeah yeah I don't like to mention that to people yeah but I have to tell you it's so funny because again like having watched the finish product of yours and I I really do love all the Mark's work but some of it it just feels like I understand why he's trying to touch on some other areas because some of the commonalities like it's it's just so sad to watch it like it's there's no redemption arc in a lot of them you know and it's like really really painful and it's really you know everyone's story is unique but some of the themes are exactly the same you know people having difficult

dysfunctional childhoods getting involved in substance use issues and we're being raised with people with substance use issues and intergenerational trauma and then having that manifest in substance use and mental health issues. So it's like, you know, a lot of it's the same. But so I watch all of them, but I don't make it all the way through all of them because I think that one of the things that makes Mark so skilled is that he lets people tell their story. And so you end up with two hours, three hours, an hour, yours I watched beginning to end. And I think he had one sitting, which was really surprising to me because I have very little attention span for sitting and watching a thing. And so I sat and watched it, but I really did. It felt like if Catch Me If You Can was like

modernized. Because every time I've read the book or watched the film, Catch Me If You Can, which is really, I think, the most detailed look into the life of a con man technically. Right. It all relies on the lack of an internet. You know, like none of this shit that he did you could ever do now because it would just be so easily you know and so yours was more of like the true like confidence you know like the true like one of the things i think you and i have as a commonality is i have found in my career that the the bravado or confidence with which one conveys information is like the most powerful force like it's it's the most i was actually having this conversation with the friend of mine last night because I'd been invited to a bunch of Thanksgiving.

You know, whenever someone knows you're like a single guy, they always say like, oh, do you want to, you know, come to our place for Thanksgiving? The truth is like, no, I don't. Like, I'm so happy to just not have to interact with anybody. Like, I feel I'm liberated from them. Once my kids were old enough that I didn't have to like do a Thanksgiving for them, I was like, this is fucking great. I'm going to just hang out and do nothing.

I'm doing a jigsaw puzzle. That's what I'm. So people invite you and they're very well-intentioned. and I don't like saying to people, oh, yeah, I'm not going to come because I just don't like to or I don't want to. Like that feels rude, you know, like, oh, I thought you were going to come. Like, well, I was good at it. Then I just went on living my life. Like, that feels rude.

So I was saying to this friend that, you know, if you say something confidently enough, the human desire to make sense of what you're saying and to look like you know what you're talking about. overrides logic. So I was saying to my friend, like when, you know, when someone says to me like, oh, can you come to this thing next Tuesday? I'll say like, oh, Tuesday. Yeah, see, the thing, you know, how Wednesdays are. Like Tuesday happens and then it's Wednesday. And then sometimes, you know, like there's so many trees in my yard right now that like all the leaves are off of them. And then there's people that come and it's the whole thing. And then, you know, so obviously like I'd love to, but I'm not going to be able to make it. And I just said nothing. But you as the listener go, wait, so the tree, he can't come because of trees, but maybe I missed something. Like, I don't

want to look stupid. And they go, oh, yeah, no, that's fine. Of course. Yeah, like, because they, they cut to the core, which is you can't come. Right. So I think that's something you and I have in our past or present vocations in common, which is this ability to sort of shift optics and do this sort of sleight of hand that has a personal look over here instead of over here, you know so i i found your story fascinating i i i mean i appreciate it um um i i so i typically do not love whenever people mention the that interview with me i typically say yeah i was like i was in full boat full you know full flame full mode psychopath during that interview

I mean I just straight just walked in I was irritated I we were in you know his his like most people don't realize that that Mark's studio is on Skid Row I had no idea it was on Skid Row I used to hear like if I watched one

and I'm the same way I watch five minutes to me they're so depressing they are I can't people are missing teeth people have you know they've got their they're missing eyeballs. Their lives are horrible. They've been sex trafficked. I'm just like, I can't, I can't do this. I have enough problems. I can't, of the anxiety of your life. Yeah. I have a hospital's full. I can't take anymore. So I, like I said, I never get through them. But so when I would hear the sirens on those

interviews, I always thought, oh, that's funny. He pumps in like he puts a, yeah, that's a sound effect. No. People are outside screaming. People are yelling. We got inundated with homeless people when we got out of the car, them asking him for money. And nobody asks me for money. They don't, I think, he's known as like kind of, you know. I've walked around like San Francisco in L.A. Nobody ever asked me for money. And I remember thinking, I just don't look like the kind of person you can ask for money. Yeah, you look like you wouldn't give it to me. Right. You're looking at that's not the way this goes. so he um anyway yeah it was that it was that i i'd had a horrible um interview uh the day before i had had i had just a series of bad things and i was irritated when i got there then we drive it down in the middle of this hell hole we're in a name all these guys we get in there i'm thinking what am i what's going on so i just immediately just was and you get and when i look at it i can see it i could but i think that's because you

I can see it. Yeah, you're caught up, I think, in the, in the, because you know yourself so well. I think that for someone who, because look, I've enjoyed your, your, your podcast as well. And there's definitely a different layer of you, you know, than that interview. That interview is, I, I always actually attributed that to the fact that you were, you were relaying in its timeline and totality, something that you've transcended, you know. And I know when I talk about past, especially about parts of the past, that, you know, caused negative repercussions in my life, you know, as much as I feel some distance from it, it still was me. And I still remember what it felt like. And it feels like, you know, when I talk about it, I have to sort of emotionally experience it a little bit, you know, again, even though I thought about it and done the work and kind of transcended it. My life is where it is. So I attributed it to that. And also that it's a weird setting. You know, I think when you're, when you're I find all of this is kind of weird because I think whenever you're talking on any kind of a forum like you you know this you're talking about your life your experience your

perspective and I don't know about you but I'm always like I just did Lex Friedman's show a couple a couple months ago and we talked for five and a half hours and he edited it down like almost four right it's like three hours when 40 45 minutes I just thought yeah yeah and that that was edited we talked for five and a half hours and we took two bathroom breaks of about 10 minutes. And I remember I enjoyed it tremendously. Because I'm again, big fan of Lex's work. But I remember finishing it going, yeah, there's nothing here. Like there's nothing that interesting. You don't. And millions of people have enjoyed that thing. They've got nothing positive. So I have no. I think sometimes we don't know because we're in it. All you do,

is you watch that softwood underbelly and you think, oh, I was so annoyed and that's like me being so intense and feeling full on psycho. I don't think that's how it was perceived. Like I watched it and felt very like, oh, this is such a like hyper intelligent guy who's really intuitive and really empathetic. And this is what happens when you weaponized that. Like he weaponized it effectively. But that then the CODA to it was you still have all of that talent and now you've just applied it to a different set of tools and so I love that

because unlike the like junkie missing and eye story that there's no redemption arc and you're like okay in three months this person's going to be dead you know and then victimize two or three more people before that happens to them like there's a feeling of hope of like okay maybe you can just set your shit on fire and rise from the end.

ashes of it and I love those stories like that's why I went into divorce law because it that's what inspired me was the feeling that like nobody meant to get divorced just like nobody meant to go to jail like no one meant to it's like you know but but it's like the old you know the barn burned down and now I can see the moon you know like there's there's so much opportunity in the ruin so let's a two two things one I am just narcissistic enough to allow you to go on and on and on and tell me how great I am. I can do that. Honestly, I do that for myself. Yeah. My wife couldn't do that. You'll tell you. But, um, so the, the second thing is it, you mentioned something about, and I don't know why I immediately think I always say this. I'm like,

you know, a fish, and I heard you say something similar. Yeah, where, yeah, where does water, it wasn't a fish. Right. Well, yeah, but I, I, I always say like, a fish doesn't know he's in water. You know what I'm saying? Like, you're surrounded by it. Just like you're saying, I don't think there's a story here. Well, that's because you're surrounded by it. So it's like, just guys, I would meet in prison and I would write their stories. And they would tell me their story. And I'd be like, sometimes I would just go, this is, this is insane.

And they go, do you think there's something here? I'm like, you robbed 30 banks. Like, we spent three hours telling one funny story after another. Like, but they just don't know. And it's the same thing, like when you explain a trial that you're currently, you know, know it's the stuff of law and order it's the stuff of you know and what's even more unique about it is that is that it is that it is unique like it's not like you're a cop oh i showed up somebody two people got into a two neighbors got into a fight they shot each other yours is

unique because it's kind of an offset of that and that kind of like my stuff it's not really prison stories there's tons of prison channels i try and do something where it's like was the guy smart about it. I don't always get right. You know, was it, what was unique about his story? Right. That's kind of what like I try and hear. Yeah, and the human element to it I think is interesting.

That is the part, the commonality is what interests me is like what are the underlying, because I guess I do this professionally. It's like a guy comes in and he says, I want 50, 50 custody. And I think to myself, no, he doesn't. Like no one looks

at their children that way. Like no one's ever in the history of children or parenting ever been like, well, I've only had 48% of the time with the children this week. I need another 2%. Like, no one's ever done that. What he's saying is I don't want to feel like a second-class parent. I don't want to be just a fun parent. I want to be involved in the heavy lifting parenting. So that I can understand, you know. And it's the same kind of thing. Like when you, you know, when you hear the stories like your story or some of the stories you've documented, there are really stories about incredible tools. that people have and gifts that people have, that they just applied to, and I'm not even going to say the wrong thing, because, you know, I'm not, you know, being someone who works in the law, I'm not really someone who's like a choir boy about it. I think that, you know, people, people transcend the law all the time. And the question is, like, are you aware of the consequences, you know? And I always liked that, was it from Breaking Bad or better call Saul, one of the two, where the mic

character says to the one guy, like, no, you're a criminal. Like, just acknowledge that you're a criminal. And then you can have a list of the things you'll do and you won't do. But don't lie to yourself and say you're not a criminal. You're a criminal. You know, like, and I think everyone's got criminal in, you know, and it's just a question of how far, how far over a line are we willing to go, you know? Yeah, I was going to say, everybody's bar is just, you know, mine's just lower than yours. Well, like, what you see in divorce is a similar thing, which is if you judge any of us as a parent or as a spouse by our best moment, then we're phenomenal spouses or phenomenal parents. If you judge us by our worst, weakest moment,

we're terrible spouses and terrible parents. The truth is we're kind of the average of all of it, right? Like, that's kind of what you have to look at it like. And so I, we have a tendency either to view ourselves if we're very narcissistic by only our best moments or if we're very self-effacing and you know the world's had its way with us we'll look at ourselves by our worst moment and compare ourselves to someone else's best moment you know usually the performative one they've posted on social media but i think at the end of the day like we're really just all those things we're all just sort of flawed heroes all right well thank you hey man what a pleasure great spending some time with you and if you ever find yourself in new york city please uh please make

a point of getting in touch so we can get together hey if you like the video do me a favor hit the subscribe button, hit the bell so you get notified videos like this. Also, check the description box. I'm going to leave a link to the book. Also, please consider joining my Patreon. Thank you guys very much. Appreciate it.

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