Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - Escaping The FBI's Most Wanted List | Jason Derek Brown

Episode Date: September 14, 2023

Escaping The FBI's Most Wanted List | Jason Derek Brown

14 years earlier, before I wanted to be a filmmaker, for real, I wanted to be an FBI agent. And I used to go on the FBI's most wanted website. I looked at the fugitives, and I found them fascinating. And you had a sea of menacing faces like Osama bin Laden, Whitey Bulger, and Jason, Derek Brown just stood out. You know, because here was a surfer dude with spiky hair, green eyes. He just didn't really fit the bill. And when he tells his little buddy, all you got to do is shoot the guy first. Why does someone have to get shot at all?

yeah you know it's one of those crazy unsolved mysteries you know so much about this story in this case from like his disappearance you know to his dad's disappearance you know there's just so many questions where i think we're never going to get answers to but the one scene of violence that you're talking about or the main scene of violence is disturbing not because of how much violence there is in it but because of the nature of it that this murder happened in broad daylight you know at a place where people literally go to shop and watch movies and have, you know, I'm all. This is Matt Cox, and I'm doing an interview with Matt Gentel. He is a director, screenwriter of a true crime film called American Murder. It's about a con man who ends up committing a really a very, it's very senseless murder. But anyway, we'll get into it. super interesting. Jess and I watched it a couple of days ago.

It was like we were just riveted by the entire film. And I'm like I tear films apart. And it was great. It was great. So check out the interview. We watched the movie. Together. Oh, cool.

Yeah. So. It was good. Yeah, it was really good. Like surprisingly amazingly good, especially since. We pick apart everything. Yeah. Yeah, you know, because I, I guess because I've done writing, so, you know, so much writing and I've optioned some stuff.

I'm actually writing on an article for Rolling Stone magazine right now. And I, you know, I'm working with a couple of production companies on some documentaries for some of the stories I've written. So it's like I pick apart everything. Yeah. you know and when i understand you know when i i got the i realized like i don't know it's just i was i was just the whole time like i'm like i like like they barely there weren't a lot of actors there weren't this he you know it was it was really interesting i was like this is not this looks like this a really big budget film and it wasn't right but but yet the actors like i'm like

oh i recognize that guy i recognize that guy and obviously you know the the lead was um what was his name again the tom belfry okay um yeah for you most famous from ozark for what ozark ozark oh see i remember him from um was it he the killer in uh lincoln lawyer no no that's uh sorry the otherly ryan philippe yeah yeah ryan phillip right okay yeah i thought you were talking i thought you were talking about tom who plays uh oh no he He was. He was the guy in Ozards, the crazy brother. Yeah.

Yeah. Ryan was the, is the killer at Likamara, yeah. And he plays the FBI agent. Yeah, that's right. Like the con man guy, I kept looking at him thinking just, and I felt like, I've seen him before. I just couldn't place it, place where? So you just said Ozart. Yeah.

Yeah, no, it's, it was crazy on day, like, three of filming. Ryan Philippe is one of the only characters who got to meet everyone because he, interviews everybody and he you know he goes holy shit man how did you get all these how do you get all these fucking people in your little movie because i know what it costs to make and you don't have a lot of money but you know we shot in the height of covid i mean so it was like it was a time when a lot of people really were eager at work and right you know the script stood out to them enough for them to want to fly to utah and make it for not a lot of money but it was yeah it was quite a cast you know it set the bar

Very high, because it's my, you know, it's my first movie. Using forgeries and bogus identities, Matthew B. Cox, one of the most ingenious con men in history, built America's biggest banks out of millions. Despite numerous encounters with bank security, state, and federal authorities, Cox narrowly, and quite luckily, avoided capture for years. Eventually, he topped the U.S. Secret Services most wanted. and led the U.S. Marshals, FBI, and Secret Service on a three-year chance, while jet-setting around the world with his attractive female accomplices. Cox has been declared one of the most

prolific mortgage fraud con artists of all time by CNBC's American Greene. Bloomberg Business Week called him the mortgage industry's worst nightmare, while Dateline NBC described Cox as a gifted forger and silver-tongued line. Playboy magazine proclaimed his scam was real estate fraud, and he was the best. Shark in the housing pool is Cox's exhilarating first-person account of his Stranger Than Fiction story. Available now on Amazon and Audible. Your story's got to be a movie, man. Watching that on.

Listen, I hear that all the time, and the mistakes I've already made are so, like when i first got out i was contacted by multiple people and i immediately you know producers and i kept shifting them to stories i'd written i was like i'm not really interested in doing my thing right now you know because i don't even know why i think i thought a movie was so out of reach that i was trying to kind of establish myself as as a writer like i wanted to be a writer or I wanted to start a true crime podcast or something, which I thought the bar would be lower. It was an easier entry point.

And so I just didn't pursue those things, any of those opportunities. And then, you know, I started doing some speaking. I started doing a bunch of podcasts. And then people started being interested in the stories. And so that kind of started to take off. And now that I'm thinking I should probably focus on trying to get something done with my story, you know, of course, those, I haven't, I've never really looked. It's always been people coming to me.

So I don't even know where to start to try and start that because I was focusing on documentaries. Yeah. Now I'm at the point where people are starting to ask me about, you know, scripted, you know, what about a scripted series for this true crime story you wrote or this one or this one or, or what about yours and um so i i i need to look into that i need to definitely need to and then you made that comment it's funny when you made that comment you know i don't know if you know half jokingly or whatever it was i told jess i said you know it's my sorry my wife her name's jess i said you know i said what's funny is i said when he joked about that that was i said

after seeing the movie he made with the budget he had i said that's the first time i thought No, that could happen. Like, that actually is possible. I think it's, I wasn't joking. I'm serious. I watched the American greed and, you know, what I love about it, I'm kind of into crime without too much violence, you know. And what I love about your, you know, like, it's funny because American murderer was like marketed in a very, you know, like guns on the cover.

But you saw it. It's not really that kind of movie. You know, they do that to sell it and like give it some specific. but it's really a drama about characters and I think it's really interesting how that whole story with you plays out of it's a relationship you know it's a fascinating like you have like a bit of a lovers on the run like as they called it on American greet the Bonnie and Clyde but right it's really just I don't think it would be too expensive to make you know you're not that's that's the beauty of these crime films is a lot of the you know what really dictates a production is cast you know that's that's what

you know like certain actors mean certain amounts of money you know and it really but like what it comes down to is roles you know are there good roles and like you know for you and like rebecca and even the first girl in the you know in a cop and an investigator like you give four good people for that who have some quote unquote like foreign value and you're off to the races making a movie like it's really it really comes down to script and that's the part of why i think a lot of things don't get off the ground is because they don't have scripts you know and like it's so a lot of people can be like oh well there's a cool story about an article but like how does mortgage fraud play out how do you make that cool

and cinematic you know what does that look like so but if you have a script that's really banger and you know if i had the time you know or if it comes i mean i do write a lot of scripts on spec like that could be something we could discuss later is you know if there's some article or a book or so you wrote or whatever well i was actually going to say if you go to my my website so i wrote a book It's like, I think it's like 100,000 words. Like I wouldn't, I wouldn't at this point ask you to read it. But I did write a 7,000 word article. Well, it's a synopsis of my book and it's on my website.

My website is called inside truecrime.com. Yeah. And so did you read it? No. I didn't read it, but I, but I know. It's a synopsis of my story. it's much more it is much more um you know correct than the than the american greed yeah not that the american greed i mean obviously they try they try and make you look as bad as you're possible it's like

i don't need any help so you know you know not and it's not that i didn't give them the material uh and it was funny when i first saw it like i was like that's not right and that's not what happened and that's not now you know then you start writing and you know and i Now I look back and I'm like, eh, it's pretty accurate. Like, I'm not thrilled that they said this. And they could have gone with this angle and that angle, but it is pretty accurate. So, you know, there are some things that they, that happened in the American greed. They talk about in the American greed that it's like, okay, well, I didn't know that.

You know, like the Browns, the doctor. You know, they do this whole thing on how they had this sick child and they had, I don't know. But I was, I never met them until the day of the closing. They make it seem like I knew them. I went in their house. Like we had dinner. I met their children. Like, I walked into a vacant house.

And three weeks later, I went to a closing. Yeah. Yeah. So. So. You know, I'm not a film bag. I'm not saying I'm not a scumb bag. But let's be accurate.

I'm just a scumbag that didn't realize that specific thing. That's played out. You were. You were. You were. anymore. That's what I said. Yeah. Let me, let me, let me do the intro real quick. Let's jump in. But yeah, let's talk about that down the road because, you know, I'm signing with an agent soon and, you know, they're going to ask me about projects. I have, you know,

pretty full slate, but I do love the story. So, you know, we'll continue that conversation. We'll do the interview now, but let's keep that conversation open because I'm interested and I, I could see a path for it. You know, so let's, yeah, I'll read that and get. back to you. But yeah, let's keep that combo open. Yeah. So, well, one, obviously, I was connected to you and I watched the film through, I think, through Tyler, right? Yep. You don't, I don't think you know. You probably have multiple people. So anyway, I think, I think it was Tyler who connected up. I think that's right. Yeah. And then I ended up watching, watching, or, you know, you sent me the link to your move. I ended up buying it on YouTube because we couldn't watch it on our

TV. So I was like, I'm just going to buy it. Oh, yeah. It's all on Lulu now, too. I know, but I just dropped Tulu like two months ago. I was paying, whatever, 12, 13 bucks a month. And we never watched it. I got it, man. You hired your subscriptions.

So, okay, so let's start with, you know, basically where did you grow up? I'm from Brooklyn, New York, yeah, originally. I've been in Los Angeles now for 10 years, but, uh, I am always a New Yorker at heart. You know, I grew up in the city, and I grew up in Brooklyn Heights specifically, which is an awesome place to come of age, you know, having access to the art scene. And, you know, I grew up loving movies in the theater. So it was a really, really cool place to grow up and to visit all the time.

Yeah, I actually just went to New York maybe six months ago for the first time. you never been oh wow i'd never been so and i i only i went up to do a shoot for a tv show called um my true crime story which is on like vh1 and they did like a one hour episode you know it was horrible you know that the yeah they put makeup on me and it's obvious and they're oh no no you won't even know i'm like man this looks horrible what are you guys doing and you know um but But, you know, my wife and I went to, went out there and, you know, and listen, I'd never been. So, you know, when you're from Tampa, Florida and you go to New York, it's like, this is, this is insane. The amount of buildings, you know, just it's, it's overwhelming. And then we went, you know, we went to Times Square. We actually stayed not far from Times Square. So we were there for like three days and then we came back. But so how, when did you, so you grew up there? Was it just you? Or did you, you know, brothers, sisters? Tons.

I'm from an Italian Jewish family, so both sides procreate, or to procreation. I have four siblings totals, two brothers, two sisters. Yeah, big, big family, big Italian Jewish family. Did you go to art school? Did you know you wanted to be, or film school? I did, you know, I grew up a legacy of loving movies. You know, fortunately for me, my dad showed me the good stuff when I was young. I, you know, the film that really made me want to be a filmmaker was.

dog day afternoon um you know with alpacino i saw that when i was 12 i saw when i was 12 years old my dad rented it and showed it to me i just fell in love with the movie the characters you know also it's set in brooklyn on a hot august summer day and you know it just really the movie really spoke to me and i didn't know why at that age you know 12 that's a pretty yeah you don't know why but i know it was so good though and you know what i love about that film is you know yes it's intense and you know it's a bank robbery movie it's the e bank robbery movie really but it's also really funny and kind of offbeat in a weird way you know and i just and alpuccino's performance junk as a hell's performance i mean the whole film is just such a masterpiece so i watched

that movie when i was 12 and just really loved it kept watching it again and again and uh one day for you know i was walking down the streets of time square with my mom and my brother and they used to sell screenplays on street stands like little vendors um you know printed scripts off like drew scriptorama dot com which which was like this weird website that had screen. It was one of the only websites that had screenplays on the internet. And you could read them. And they would sell these screenplays for like $10 a script. You could get the script for The Godfather for $10 or Pulp Fiction or whatever you want.

All movies I loved. But they had the script for Dog the afternoon. My mom sees me eyeing it. She buys it for me for $10 as the sixth night of Hanukkah present for this weird 12-year-old. And I read that script by Frank Pearson. And that was the first time I learned what a screenplay was and understood that. like, okay, words on a page can become images on a screen. You know, that's, that, that was just this whole new concept for me.

It totally broke my mind open. You know, and I also loved visual storytelling. I found film images fascinating. You know, I actually, I know you're an artist and a painter, and I've started to draw and paint myself just in my spare time taking classes. I didn't do that as a kid. I kind of wish I did, but for some reason, it was all film. I was just obsessed with film and cinema and exploring different.

kinds. You know, it started with 70s movies. And I also grew up loving TCM, which I still have literally on mute in my office all day when I write. Um, so I loved old films, you know, films from the 40s, films from the 50s and just, and then foreign films. So kind of exploring different, you know, types of, of cinema, but particularly, you know, growing up in New York and an Italian family, of course, the guys you always talk about are Martin Scorsese, you know, the genius, right. Francis Ford Coppola, the other genius, you know, and then, Steven Spielberg and all of them so you know I grew up loving all kinds of movies but I didn't really know how one you know forges a career in film you know it just was kind of like you know I'm from a family of like lawyers you know like it just wasn't you know nobody had really done that kind of thing before ironically my brother and I are both artistic my brother is a pianist and conductor and he's also the composer of American murder it's his first film score so that's his music in the film that you heard and um You know, but he's like, he was someone who like, he was like a wonder kid with music.

I didn't, you know, early on, I didn't, I just loved movies. I was a nerd. I didn't necessarily show much promise per se. But I did start making shorts in high school. And, you know, I acted to in theater and plays. And I loved that. But again, I didn't really know how to build a path. I went to a liberal arts college, you know, Connecticut College, small school, you know,

where, again, most people from that school don't, you know, there's a film program, but there's not much of one. You know, it was just like I did, I did English in film studies. And, you know, I did a semester abroad, though, in Prague at a film school. And that experience was the first time I had, like, the art school experience, like, film conservatory, pure, you know, cinema, like study. You know, it was a really amazing film program in Prague where they had, like, the great Czech filmmakers had all gone there and some of them were even teaching there. And I was just, like, dumb, 20, you know, 19-year-old kid, like, getting to learn from all these masters. And that experience made me say, okay, I want to, you know, I think it's directing for me.

That's what I have to do. I made a short film there based on a Hemingway story. And I said, that's, this is what I got to do. And after that, I, you know, I got out of college, like every, you know, 22-year-old college grad, having, you know, unemployed and not knowing what to do with my life, you know, wanting to be a filmmaker like everyone and their mom. And, you know, I got a job working in the mailroom at the William Morris Endeavor Talent Agency. you know which was a pretty cool place to be for a 22 year old because it was just like the hub of everything entertainment and that was about 10 years ago so it was a really interesting time because the industry as we know it was completely changing you know shifting you know 2012 2013 the year I was there

that was the year house of cards came out on Netflix right and like you know movie stars were suddenly doing TV movies right like behind the candelabra with Michael Douglas and Matt Damon And so it was a really interesting time to be a, you know, 21-year-old or 22-year-old, like, you know, being like what they call a floater, right, just doing whatever the agents want us to do and, you know, getting to see all these different, you know, connections and how this industry works and how it was just changing faster than anyone could comprehend. I worked there for about a year and a half, which we're a great talent agent. And then I got into film school at AFI, you know, at the AFI Conservatory, American Film Institute, which, you know, I applied on a lark. I applied with a short film I had made with a one week's paycheck, which at the time was like $650.

And, you know, just made a short film shot in a weekend, sent it into AFI, and they accepted me. I was the youngest director of there. I was the last one in. You know, I was waitlisted and,

you know, I really hustled my way in. And when I got there, I almost felt as if I was on borrowed time because I just, I knew, you know, I had to work really hard because I was let in last.

They except 28 directors out of like 10,000 applicants or something at the time at least. And so I was like, okay, you're number 28. Like you got to work your ass off and really, you know, make the most of this experience. And so I worked and worked and worked and made short after short and, you know, failed and got better and then succeeded and failed again. You know, it just says the process is. And then I graduated with a thesis film that ended up really opening a lot of doors for me. It was called Frontman, and that won the student Emmy and got a lot of recognition in terms of, like, the festival circuit, but it's kind of like, you know, a weird thing where how do you now take this and make a living? How do you live, you know, and survive? And when I graduated school, you know, I was kind of, I was getting like gigs, like, you know, branding content things or reality, you know, like anything. Like I got lucky that somebody was hiring me to do kind of like this weird kind of like cooking show stuff. And like it was very sketchy things.

It wasn't porn, thank God. But it was like, you know, a cooking show for someone who can't really cook. It was like this weird. Me and my friends would do it. And, you know, friends from AFI, we'd all go, we'd film it. We'd make some money. We'd get drunk and talk about it. And it was like a thing.

You know, it was just, you know, we were going gig to gig. And that wasn't really sustainable, it seemed. I then after that made another short. And these two shorts from men and lawmen were kind of going around the festival circuits at the same time. And a lot of people were interested in working with me. but it was kind of like hard because I had to really figure out

what my first feature was because that's the thing with it being a director specifically and a screenwriter as well but a director is it's really what's your first feature you know if you make a successful short what happens is they kind of go that's cool what do you got and I put all this effort into the shorts

that I didn't really have that feature script yet I'd gotten sent a couple but I couldn't really you know see how I would do them so it was about 2017 when I decided you know I got it If I'm going to do my own short film, if I'm going to do my own feature film, I'm going to have to write it myself. Like that's, it kind of came to that.

I was like, I want to do a feature film that I'm going to be proud of. That's my debut that, you know, is me and what I want to say and like the kind of movie I want to make. You know, then I have to, I'm going to have to write the script. So it was quite a big curve where I really had to figure out how to, you know, take all this and turn that into screenwriting and really essentially. Sorry, did you have something in mind? Like, did you already have something? you thought I would this is something I could do or a concept or a I had I had kicked around

different ideas you know and I was thinking maybe I'll make something really small like super micro budget just go shoot it and like you know but I I've been kicking around different ideas and I want to say it was around 2018 I was like just in this weird place like how do you how do you do it how do you make that first feature and going to cut back in time in a nonlinear narrative here 14 years earlier before I wanted to be a filmmaker for real I wanted to be an FBI agent and I used to go on the FBI's most wanted website I looked at the fugitives and I found them fascinating I would like you know look at the videos my mom used to recall me being like hey that's you know fugitive number five I guess a kid you know and I wanted to be a fed and catch

the bad guys and blah blah blah and in 2004 the crime at the center of American murder took place so I was about 13 14 years old and I remember I saw Jason Derek Brown's mugshot for the first time on the FBI's most wanted fugitive's website. You know, and you had a sea of menacing faces like Osama bin Laden, Whitey Bulger, you know, like top ten, top ten people,

which I know you know about. And, you know, the, and Jason Derek Brown just stood out, you know, because here was a surfer dude with spiky hair, green eyes, he just didn't really fit the bill. So, I kind of like, you know, again, at age 13 or 14, all I remember was the image of Jason, like the spiky hair against the blue wall, you know, which is the picture he took before he, like, when he bought the gun for the murder that he committed. But I remember that image, the face made an impression on me. And now I cut to 14 years later, I'm figuring out, I'm in my late 20s, I'm figuring out how the hell do I take all I've learned to make a living at this thing.

right um you know what would be a good first feature for me to do anyway in this crazy landscape where like it's hard to get movies financed and what is it and literally i'm i'm i'm shooting a commercial for a dentistry firm right and i'm in texas and a hotel storyboarding and drawing out my images and whenever i storyboard i always have true crime stuff on in the background um american greed in the on the background and jason derrick brown's face popped on my television I'm like, boom, his face goes full screen, and I see it. And all of a sudden, the image comes flooding back. I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm like, that guy.

And I turn the volume up, and I start watching the special. And I start seeing him, I'm like, this is so interesting, this got right. And the special that aired about him, because Jason's story, I've been covered on multiple formats, at Dateline, American Greed, like, everything, you know. Right. And I just became upset. I was just like, this is so crazy that this guy did this thing and disappeared and no one knows where he is still and these people all knew him, but they all, nobody saw him doing this murder.

Like, it was so surprising to everyone that I just said, this is the kind of character that was in movies that I grew up loving. You know, this is Pacino and Dog Day Afternoon. This is, you know, anti-heroes. This is French connection. I just, I was like, how have they not made a film about this guy? Excuse me. So I just You know I became obsessed And really interested in the story

And I just said Well what if I make that as my first feature And at first I thought it seemed pretty bold You know It's an ambitious story A lot happens in it you know But the more I looked at it I said well you know

Maybe I'll just write the script And see what happens from there You know just write a script about this character Follow him see where it goes So I began to research it I did a real deep dive and, you know, began reading everything I could, even interviewing, you know, some people who were either connected or, you know, peripherally connected to the, to Jason in the story. And I just began to amass, you know, material. And I just said, okay, I'm going to go write a script. And, you know, I spent a long time trying to get the script right before I would send it out. And, you know, that began the journey, though, essentially, of getting American murder made, which was a long one with a lot of false starts. stops you know um but essentially yeah i was you know at a place in my life where i was just trying

to figure out what's that first feature what does it look like and then jason's face just popped on my television and it kind of told me to make it if that i don't know if that sounds cheesy but you know it's the truth it really just kind of came to me and was like yeah this is this is the story you should do for your first movie so unfortunately people yeah sorry go ahead i was going to say who was the production company who who did you end up who ended up producing it it was two different companies um traveling picture show company um was the main one in gg films um they kind of converged on me at the same time i mean the path for it was i wrote the spec script meaning for those who don't know you know script you write on your own right on your

on your own time on your own dime and then you go try to sell it so i wrote the screenplay on spec and it wasn't the first script i'd ever written but it was one of them it was maybe like my my third or fourth and um i wrote it and early draft i did you know got an actor interested um with that actor who was starting to get some heat in his career sorry they're drilling outside um with an actor who was starting to get uh heat in his career he attached himself and did a proof concept short um i shot so i shot one scene from the script and uh you know was taking that around and that short with that actor helps get eyeballs on it People were like, oh, I want to read, can I read this?

Can I read the script? And there were a few different companies that were interested, some of which, you know, one, we're actually interested in potentially optioning my script, but not necessarily with me directing it. And I didn't want to do that. So it was very specifically written for me to direct. So I was kind of like, you know, in a tough place because I did need the money. But I also was just like, no, I, you know, if people want to option it without me, maybe someone will option it with me. you know and then fortunately i was right even though it took a bit of time and uh this company

traveling picture show and gg films converged around the same time i want to say like you know early 2019 and you know they were like let's go let's do this and um you know they optioned the script for me and that was my first time you know having a script option sold and then doing rewrites and you know it was a really informative and uh learning you know learning by buyer kind of experience, but it was great to thank God for them because without, you know, your producers often get a bad rap for like the, you know, like what's known about them, but the truth is without them, you don't get a movie made, you know, the hustle that's required on them to like go and raise financing and like, you know, in a way they actually are risking the most, you know, and so it was, you know, I was very grateful to these producers because they really understood what I wanted to do. got me and got the movie and also really supported me directing it that was crucial um so yeah traveling pick show and uh gg films for the two where where has it played uh the movie well we um you know so we shot the film in 20 late 2020 early 2021 um we finished it at the end at the end of

2021 top of 22 and you know so really when you think about where the movie was made it was made in COVID in the thick of the pandemic shot in pre-vaccine COVID in Utah so you know it was kind of an odd time to be putting

a movie out and trying to get one sold we actually sold the film to Lions Gates of Bonn and Universal before it was you know like well obviously before it was released but we sold it in early, I want to say March 2020. And then we were able to, we had some amazing festival

premieres. Our world premiere was at the Taramina Film Fest, which is in Sicily. And it premiered in a amphitheater that was built in 300 BC. And it was really awesome. That festival was amazing. And I got to meet my, my hero of all time, Freds Fort Coppola was there with the 50th anniversary of the Godfather. That was pretty special. So that was an amazing premiere to have. have i think it's kind of tough to honestly beat that you know um especially because you work so hard on the movie and it's endless hours i mean you know you're you're giving your life to it and you're you're you're going in and you're doing that cut and you're doing that extra cut and you're watching it for the 50 millionth time and you're taking notes and you're figuring it out so to

to be able to have had that was pretty amazing and yeah we had a world premiere there in june of last year uh that was a taramina then it played a few more festivals um west coast it played newport beach that was like our hollywood industry premiere which was great that was a packed house and really fun um you know and then it also played boston was his east coast premiere which was awesome um it won an awards at san diego and fireville which is great um so you know we played like i want to say five five or six festivals which you know when you're about to release a movie you don't want to overexpose it so it was a good amount and you know the um and we got you know our European exposure which was great and then it came out theatrically in the US in late

October early November and it was released on streaming about a week or two after so I mean we got a theatrical release you know which is very rare these days especially for small movies like this and then it came out internationally in January of this year where it really start to take off and top streaming charts all around the world but it actually had just found out today from my team that it topped it's in the hulu top 10 as of this morning so it's it's it's it's had a nice growing organic life which has been cool to see because i've you know since it came out other than i promoted the hell out of it in as many interviews like that go but then i've i've been on to other projects since it came out in november so it's ever it's nice to get

remote you know to be told you know how it's doing um every no and then someone will send me an article or something i'm like that's great you know so it's nice to see it's kind of like you raise a kid and then you send it off into the ether and there's a phrase about uh raising kids that applies to movies not that i haven't experienced raising a kid i'm not a father but um they say raising a kid making movies like raising a kid it takes 25 years to know if you did a really good job meaning like in 25 years are people talking about it or they you know to disappear so you know um it will take 25 years before I know how good of a job I did, but I'm very proud of the film and proud of the people who worked on it and who made me look great and the reception it's had

and all that's been been awesome, you know. Like, I mean, so if you said you researched, so had anybody, well, I mean, you said there was some, some shows about him and he had been thoroughly, you know, kind of, you know, gone through the, I guess, the true crime kind of, um, documentary type series or whatever but had anybody written a book about him or like so did you have to start from scratch and just do all your own research and i had to do a lot of it you know there was like i said a lot written about him i think there were a couple books from what i remember um a lot of articles um you know a ton of articles there was like an out-to-print book i mean there there was

so much out there documentaries interviews shows those kinds of things um and you know i did i i did my homework in that i really like i did reach out to some people i reached out to a cop who worked the case i reached out to you know or a cop who knew the cop worked the case was able to give me you know documents and i was able to i interviewed some people who knew him i don't want to say exactly who just because i don't want to out them it's kind of my unspoken deal with them but you know i i did interview people who knew him and you know the movie i always stress when i say is it is a true crime film and it is based on a true story and I have had people reach out to me and say who did know Jason and say how accurate it is which I'm very proud of but you know it's a painting it's not a photograph so there are definitely you know liberties I took to tell the story more dramatically and you know because real life often doesn't play out like a movie and that's the challenge of making you know films based on true stories and also a controversial subject you You know, it was like, how true was it?

What was it true? And I always say it is based on truth and reality, you know, in particular things like the murder scene was, you know, are quite, I mean, it was a different kind of movie theater than that, you know, there weren't those kinds of pillars. There were like longer alleyways. But we, we created that with pretty painfully, you know, painstaking detail and accuracy to make sure, like, how it was done happened and all that. And I've had people, you know, remark that, which is great. But, you know, I wasn't necessarily striving for accuracy as. much as I was more for emotional truth is in what did it feel like to know this guy you know how did this guy manipulate people how did people you know fall for this web and that's really what the movie

was about is you know can you take someone who's you know quite rotten to the core essentially and you know can you push an audience to understand him you know and understand who he is because that's what the films I grew up loving did you know and not grew up loving still love you know I love movies that live in that moral gray area, whether it's Goodfellas or, you know, Wolf of Wall Street, right? I mean, you know, those movies are so great and the characters get away with it. Like, at the end of Goodfellas, my favorite part is at the end of- They didn't get, they all went to go. They still all went to jail. I'm not sure how much. Well, yeah. I guess Henry Hill did, but.

They got away with a lot, but eventually catches that with you. That's true. But, you know, What I love about the Goodfellas, I remember hearing an interview with Scorsese where he was saying a lot of people were outraged when Goodfellas, even though it was a very beloved film, people were really pissed off that like Henry Hill didn't get like, you know, slapped on the wrist or like cuffed, right, at the end. Like he's, he's living in witness protection, right? And he's complaining about the pasta. And people are like, oh, come on. Like, you know, he needs some poetic justice. And I just love movies that explain. you know that psyche and that psychology and and allow you to really you know look at that character in an unflinching way that tells you you know this is who this person was they were you know they deceived people they did this they were violent you know all of that and uh i just yeah i love those kinds of films so that's what i was striving to do with this um well one i was going to say you know it's funny like uh jordan belford or uh henry hill or you know it's you know

it's always funny when people are like oh they should throw away they should have given that guy 30 years well then then he wouldn't have cooperated if he said oh you're going to give me 30 years yeah that's it you're getting 30 years okay well then I'm not going to cooperate and now all these other people go free the really bad people go free so what do you want is like you have to make a deal do you want to get these other 15 people who are murderers and participated or you want to get one out of the 15 people you can get me are you going to or and i can help you get the other 14 or 15 you know so but i'm not doing that because i'm just a wonderful person now i didn't get arrested and i'm i become a good citizen like i need something you don't work for free you know i'm saying like that's what you know you only have at that point in their lives like you only have one thing to offer me you know which is totally so yeah but yeah you know yeah i'm sorry um i was just going to say i i was just going to say i i because I hear that all the time. Oh,

that person should get 30 years. Wait a minute. You know? Yeah. No, and I, well, that's,

you know, and I, I don't think it's films for cinema. It's not pretentious. I don't think it's a place to judge, you know. Right. I think,

you know, we present, you know, our job as a director, screen writer is to present, you know, and I, we're fascinated by it,

you know? I mean, like, why does everyone love succession? Why is everyone talking about it? You know, because, you know,

I think those creators are not judging. their characters, even though they're all fucking awful. Like, you know, if you want to give someone time in prison, give it to those people, you know, like, they're, they're awful, you know, and they don't, and they get away with every, you know, so I think film, our job is to, you know, present someone and, like, show you who they are and, you know, not judge, because I don't think people listen to judgments, you know,

that's just been my experience, you know, their audiences don't want to be lectured to, it's, that's no fun. And when, when the Wolf Wall Street came out, you know, people were saying, he didn't talk about the victims, he didn't show the, Listen, nobody, nobody wants to go to the movies and be crying their eyes out for the victims. They're there to see some, they're there to vicariously live through these anti-heroes, you know? You can bring it up, but you certainly can't dwell on it. You dwell on it, then you don't sell any tickets, and then you don't get your next movie made.

Like, it's a blogger. Yeah. Well, I'm Wolf of Wall Street is brilliant. And I think, you know, the best part about it is, yeah, they don't really show the victims of the movie. That's true. but they show Kyle Chandler riding the subway at the end, right? And that's the one moment that I love it.

It's so brilliant. Yeah, no, I completely agree. I think, and that's part of the fun of con men movies. You know, you think about, even a movie like The Sting, you know, which is not, you know, that dark per se, right? It's pretty like, as far as crime. It's pretty lighthearted.

But, you know, like the fun is being in on the con. I mean, every time I've seen my film in a theater with a crowd, which was a few times, you know, in Italy, you know, in Boston, in California, like, a lot of scenes get laughter, which I'm proud of because I think a lot of crime stuff these days is just way too like dark and ominous and like, you know, cups being serious with cigarettes and, you know, I like to watch things that make me have fun. And, you know, the audience always cracks up in the scene when Tom, Jason, Tom Pelfrey's character, Jason Darkbrow puts the golf clubs in his pants and walks out. right they always laugh at that because it's a con and you're in on it you know the brother's doing you know it's just like people just love that and audiences i think love cons at least people that seek those kinds of stories out and you know in my film i think we we do show a little bit of the victim with adina mansell's character and certainly um the sister you know who who by being this con man sister was it was in a tough position um you know in a compromised one and uh you know but i think that it It's, you know, yeah, I think what you can have fun, part of, I think the fun of film noir and gangster and all that is you kind of get to, like, as you said, you know, I totally agree, it's you live vicariously through the thrill. So when the audience walks out, they don't have to do it, you know, that's why we love movies like double indemnity where it's like, you know, they're getting off on this plan to kill her husband, right? It's like, you know, that's the fun of film noir

as you go down to these dark alleys, but, you know, ideally, you don't do, you know, no one should do that in their, in their life. So I have a question. And I mean, this might, I don't know if it's an off topic or odd question. Not that you're going to know, but it just, what bothered me so much about the movie, or is not the movie, it's just the story or case in general, is that it's you know I guess it's I know a lot about crime obviously and I've spoken with you know thousands of criminals and I with tons of bank robbers and I've spoken with you know

probably a couple dozen guys that actually robbed like you know armored trucks and and actually robbed the carriers you know the the guys you know carrying the money back and forth or the I I forget what they call them, the couriers. Anyway, like, it's such a senseless murder. You know, and I was just the whole time when he said, you know, you this and this, and I've been watching this, and when he tells his little buddy, all you got to do is shoot the guy first. You know, go up and shoot the guy.

I thought, why does someone have to get shot at all? Like, what are you talking about? Like, I was okay with you robbing the guy, you know? Shitty thing to do, but I get it. This guy's making minimum wage, maybe a little bit more. he's not going to put up a fight for that money you run up i know a guy that got 200 i think he got 250 000 robbed a uh a guy delivering money to bank of america ran up with bear mace he didn't have a gun he ran up with bear mace bow anthony cursio ran did the same thing watched for a few days got

down got the uh the pattern down knew when they were going to be there just ran up boom shot him in the face with bear mace the guy hit the ground started screaming grabbed the money and ran. Why do you have to kill this guy? They never put up a fight. You have a gun. He's going to be like, whoa, bro, take it. Go, go. He's not like, he just, he executes him. And I just thought it was so from the character that you created, you know, and what you're saying was extremely accurate. It was so out of character. When he said that, I thought, wow, like this guy who I kind of you like as the lovable rogue you know what i'm saying he's kind of um jack sparrow kind of uh you love him you hate him you know he's a scoundrel but you love him you're right and when he did

that i went wow man like what are you doing yeah so it was nuts like and i was wondering like in all your research like did that ever come up did you ever think like what did that did people say like we have no idea like it was clearly he thought about he was it was that was his intent from yeah yeah you know it's one of those crazy unsolved mysteries you know so much about this story in this case from like his disappearance you know to his dad's disappearance you know there's just so many questions where i think we're never going to get answers to you know why did he do that um and it was surprising i think that's part of why it was so surprising to hear about because people knew him as kind of a fun-loving, immature man-child who, you know,

you just enjoy your time with and that's it. You know, he wasn't like, he didn't seem to be this complicated, but the truth is Jason was a very skilled actor, you know, and he had demons and he had darkness. And, you know, as far as going that extra length to kill someone, there's, you know, again, no, there is no one answer for why he did. I think there's, you know, I would say that possibly the desensitization to how desensitized he was to violence, you know, and I think that is something the film does explore somewhat, you know, not too much in depth because we didn't have time, but, you know, how prevalent it is in our culture, you know, in movies and in shows. I mean, one thing I'm very, I'm also, I would say I'm proud of is that the film, you know, is called American Murderer, but it's not that violent. You know, but I will tell you, I had a, but the one scene of violence that you're talking about, or the main scene of violence, is disturbing, not because of how much violence there is in it, but because of the nature of it, that this murder happened in broad daylight, you know, at a place where people literally go to shop and watch movies and have, you know, a mall.

And that's what I think is so, you know, catches people off guard about it. It's like the nature, because right, you know, you're totally right. that murder and even armed robbery are not, you know, are pretty basic crimes armed car theft. Like there's been a million movies about armored car theft. But the nature of this one is particularly, yeah, there's something disturbing about it. And it was a very disturbing scene to film. You know, the day on set

was quite felt heavy and my brother scoring it. I know like, this was like, dude, I can't. Like, you gotta stop giving me notes on this cue because I can't watch it again. Like it's getting really, you know, it was, it was a a scene that, you know, it is unflinching and disturbing. And that was the point, though, the point of the movie was to really, and in that way, it's a bit of an experiment

in that we're sticking you with this guy who's charismatic and fun to be around, exactly as you said, the lovable rogue. You know, you know he's doing bad things, but you're kind of fine with it. And then you see him do this thing, and really, at that point, it's, you know, all bets are off at that point. Now you know you are with

someone who is homicidal, who is dangerous and who is willing to, you know, take someone's life for his own financial comfort. I mean, it's disturbing and sick. What I was going to say is, you know, had I not known watching the movie, had I not known that he was on the FBI's must want to list, that he had committed the murder, even when he mentions it, I thought, I would have thought, you know, one, he's not going to go through with it.

And two, if he is, he's not shooting anybody. So I only, you know, like even during the movie, I would have been, had I just walked in cold and seen it and then he did shoot him, I would have really been like just blown away. But luckily, I kind of knew it was coming. So, you know, you reserved the whole time. I'm like, yeah, he is going to kill this guy. The other thing that I thought was great was that the father, I thought the way you did the father with his dad, I genuinely thought there were two things. The father, I either thought the father was dead. Like he'd killed him. He had killed himself or he was in prison. You know what I'm saying? You believe it vague. And I

Almost felt like, because my wife was like, she's like, I don't understand. Did he die? Did he? I go, no, I said, I think he's in prison. And then, you know, so that's just what I expected was he was in prison. Because it wasn't clear to me that he had disappeared. Right. You know, they don't mention it again. So when the brother at the end is like, you're never going to catch him. And the FBI agent goes, you know, why do he's saying that? And he's like, you never called my father. And I was like, oh, wow. Like the dad's the comment. kind of a con man the sons were kind of a con man they both disappeared so i didn't and then the brother it then the brothers say have you talked to dad lately or something like that i think during the course they were playing golf with them and i remember thinking oh he's he is in prison yeah so i just thought it's funny yeah no it's it's a it's a thread of the movie i wish we had a little more time to explore you know this the tough part about films versus limited series is in a limited series or you get like six to eight episodes and in the case of american murder we had a hundred minutes you know more or less um so you know i i wish i could have explored that thread further in depth

but yeah no the father disappeared in 1994 10 years before jason did and um by all accounts uh you know the jason and his father had a strange relationship the dad was you know but they were definitely like one another you know and and jason was very much coached uh by his father right you know his father taught him how to con and how to you know and really raised the kids you know with a criminal understanding it was quite you know twisted in that way um you know he was always running from the police he was always you know doing shady business dealings that he would take the kids on he would take them to like on road trips to tijuana with stacks of cash and you know which you kind of see a little bit of in the movie in the hotel room when he comes in with the cash into the

Same. So, you know, his father, the father was involved in the criminal underworld. And then one day he did just up and disappear. But he apparently raised the kids saying, if I'm ever gone for more than 48 hours, clean out my stuff and get rid of everything. So when you think about that, like being raised like that, like, that's not a normal thing for parents to say to a child. And, you know, it's just, yeah, though there's so many fascinating things that, like, didn't make the cut, I will say that, you know, just it's such a, it was such a rich story to, explore i felt you know very lucky i got to make this movie because yeah the characters were just so complex and interesting and that's you know that's what i'm after but yes now the father did disappear and you know there's been rumors that jason and the guy i did jason specifically was like in touch with him after the father was funneling it money there's all kinds of theories and who knows what's you know what actually happened and what didn't um that's kind what the film's about you know what's what's real and what's not it's not that easy to stay gone, you know, like if I know, you know, if you, and I keep in mind, too, I had dozens of passports, driver's licenses, everything, you know, but at some point, you know, it catches up to you. That's why I was, it always kills me when you talk to the, you'll talk to these guys who have been like gone for 15 years and didn't ever have, didn't have ID. How the hell did you go 15 years without ID? Yeah. You know, so the only guys I know that have really made it a long time,

went to like South America or something, somewhere like that and started their life over and basically lived just a regular kind of started a business and just lived a regular life. And even then eventually I met him in jail. So you're like you were gone 25 years or 15 years. Where were you? Oh, I was in Brazil or I was in Colombia and I was doing this and that and just living a regular kind of life down there. And I was married and three kids.

And then, you know, one day something happened and they arrested me. Somebody found out and somebody recognized me. somebody told somebody and they grabbed me and it was like you know wow you didn't have idea i was living as this guy had some drop some information not really you know didn't like i didn't really have i had this i had that and they always typically were okay with that and i never really got stopped and i avoided the law and you know they're not really able to run your stuff down there like they are here so that i i just it's it's shocking to me you can get away for very long because you're there is so much interaction with law enforcement you're going to get a ticket you know you think oh no no i'm

going to drive safely you're still going to get a ticket bro yeah you know like at some point no it's crazy i can't even think about someone would you know be able to a lot of people do think jason's dead i don't know you know if that's possible it's just yeah it's crazy i mean how could someone hide and stay hidden for that long you know okay for my problem with that is this guy has never really had a regular job. Like he's not going and getting a job at Walmart and you're working as a stock boy. Like even if he could get a driver's license, he's not going to get a regular job and never be. This is a guy who's had interaction with the law.

He gets in trouble. He spends a lot of money. He borrows from people he can't pay back. He's running scam after scam and not well. So, you know, so he's not going to. It's like the guys that escaped Alcatraz, right? Like they all drowned. You can sit here and say, you know,

guys, oh, no, no, they all got it. Stop it. These were career criminals. The one thing I know is, if you take that guy and you pick him up and you put him in another state, you give him a little bit of money and you give him a new life, the truth is he's a criminal. He may go straight for a little bit, but he's going to start committing crimes again. Because unless you're going to give him a job making a couple hundred thousand dollars a year, he's not going to be able to live off of $45,000 working as a stock clerk. And he's going to start cutting foreigners and he's going to get arrested because he's been arrested eight times. So, you know, that's same thing with Jason. Like I, I, so I'm really curious as to what's happened. One, identifications of a must. And two, how are you making a living? And look, if it's catching up to him in LA, this guy's catching up to you in the U.S., you can pick up and move across the country.

Right. You know, but, you know, he also had, obviously, which is odd, too, that he had a relationship with his family, which is probably part of his downfall. He tended to just, I guess he kind of stayed in the same area and stayed connected to these people. And that allows these, every time you run a scam, it's just going to keep catching up to you. Yeah. Yeah.

That's crazy. I mean, also, you know, the world changed, right? And, you know, he disappeared back. And, like, it's hard to imagine someone being able to do it today. I don't know. You know, like, just with the way technology is changing. You have more expertise in this than I do. But, like, well, just.

you so if you were willing to work a regular job like if you really could do it and you were able to get identification or ID issued to you which is nearly impossible not not that I couldn't do it or you couldn't do it the problem is how do you do you can't do it from scratch you have to either steal someone's identity which isn't hard it's not hard to go and get a driver's license in in Washington State or Arizona and someone else's name, but you can never have credit in their name because at some point this guy who lives in Florida, who you're using is you've got a duplicate driver's license

in the other state. At some point he pulls his credit and he goes, the hell is there a Capital One? I got a Capital One credit card for $45,000 and I got another one for American Bank of America for $20,000 and an American Express card. What's going on? Those aren't my credit cards. He files. He starts looking in. Addresses come up. Next thing you know, the police are knocking on your door.

So that's an issue. So you would basically have to get identification. Now, what I did was, you know, one, I made synthetic identities. Of course, they were fake people. I convinced Social Security to issue social security numbers to children that don't exist. And I was able to get IDs in their name and credit profiles, credit cards, bank accounts. But I also interviewed, I would survey homeless people, get their information. order all their documents and get driver's licenses in their names,

passports, I was able to travel and move around. So I had people that weren't ever going to come across what I'd done. The problem is what happens when I'm 60 and this guy dies? This homeless guy who lives under a bridge passes away. Now what do I do? At some point, Social Security cuts a check for a social security benefit. They notify the credit bureaus in a batch every 90s. days, hey, this person's deceased. And the next time I go to pull my credit, or anyone

pulls my credit, they say, it says this person's deceased. That's an issue. Like, these things will catch up to you eventually. So, yeah, it can be a problem. It could be what you could do, what I was on the brink of doing was basically just relocating to another country. You know, once you remove yourself from the system, even if that guy dies, they're not going to notify Australia that this person is deceased. You know, if you're living in somewhere else as a permanent resident alien, or maybe you go to St. Kitt's and you get a British passport issued to you. Now you can pretty much go anywhere.

There's ways to do it if you have enough money, but most people just don't. And if you're running, you just don't. And it's, it's an issue. So at some point it catches up to you, I would think, you know, I mean, in my case, it didn't really catch up to me as much as it just, you know, I was basically the media attention is what caught up to me, you know, like, you know, there's datelines coming out, American Greed comes out, like, I'm taking off and I was pulling money out of the bank and somebody told somebody and that person just turned me in, you know, it's,

but yeah, it's if you're a moderate, kind of a non-flashy guy that they're not really tracking, you might be able to do it. Oh, it'd be hard. Don't try it. Oh, I won't. I'll tell you, though, I should have had you consult on the movie, but next one, yeah. Good times. You know, another thing that always kills me is everybody always, they're always like, I always get asked, you know, what was it like on the run? God, it must have been horrible, like stressful and this and that. And the truth is, I had a great time on the run.

Like, it was one of the best parts of my entire life. Like, you know, it wasn't stressful. It wasn't horrible. Like, I'm getting pulled over. I'm getting traffic tickets. You pulled me over. I'm going 90 miles an hour, 80 miles an hour. The cop pulls me over.

I pull over. It's not my driver's license. I'm like, yeah, here. Yeah, they're like, how fast were you going? I'm like, it depends. I got it up to 90. How long you been behind me? And they're like, I got you at 80. I'm like, well, it was 80 then.

And they run it, write a ticket. Listen, I got so many traffic tickets as somebody one time. I had to go to traffic school as the guy. I was going to lose his license. So, you know, I'm, so it wasn't, I wasn't concerned. I wasn't worried about interaction with the police because I have a real passport. I have a real driver's license. I have my car, it's, you know, my car is got full coverage insurance on it.

You know, I'm driving as that person. I'm not stupid enough to drive around in a stolen vehicle with a broken tail light and a dead body in the trunk. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's everything checks out. So I was never concerned really being on the run. But if you didn't have that skill set, it would, it probably would be horrible. yeah i can't imagine so anyway something to think about um for your next movie you know exactly look into it uh so what so what what what what is your next project what do you

have a few going on i um you know it's funny because in the years getting american murder made it was all about that you know first feature is so consuming and you know such an endeavor And now that it's done, it's kind of now about balancing multiple. You know, I've been getting sent scripts to direct, which has been really cool and getting to read stuff. And I recently attached to one that's hoping to go out later this year. We'll see with all the, you know, we have a strike going on here in Hollywood that I'm behind and all that. But I'm attached to, yeah, I'm attached to two different scripts. And then I'm writing my own.

I have a lot of scripts in the crime thriller and Western genres. You know, my hope is to eventually be able to do a lot of different kinds of movies, but I do love the crime genre. I have a feeling I'll be, you know, comfortable there because, you know, I think there's a great opportunity to make great character-driven crime films that really don't cost a ton to get made and, you know, are about the characters and the people. You know, I think we need more movies about people. Not that I love all kinds of films. You know, I love comic movies. I love action movies. I love sci-fi.

I love everything. But, you know, I think we're a little, you know, there's a bit of a drought in the film space on good character-driven stories. So that's what I'm, you know, pushing out there and trying to, you know, trying to do what I can to get them made. Listen, you got to go to my website. I mean, I've got probably 13 or 14 synopsies of different. stories I wrote about guys in prison. I've written probably close to 20, but I think there's 30, I don't know, there might be, I think there's 17, but some of them have been optioned, but there's probably, I think there's about 13 or 14 that are available. And, and some of them,

you know, are, you know, great. They're great movies. They're being that great movie, sorry, great synopsies. I always call them synopsies. They're basically articles, you know, of these stories from these guys that, you know, that some of them are still locked up. Um, but yeah they're they're really interesting and and one of the things about it is because i was in prison and i wasn't able to like i've got the subject but i don't have like i don't have i have some articles and the subject that's all i've got so i always ordered the freedom of information act right so i would get their sentencing transcript their indictment all the fbi interviews or Secret Service or DEA, whoever they were investigated by. And, you know, sometimes I would,

you know, I'd write letters to get additional information. And then I'd be able to put the whole thing together. So they're always super accurate. And I typically have a 360 degree view of the whole thing. Because a lot of these guys don't know what's happening on the other side. They're like, this happened. And I'm like, well, why did that happen? And they're like, I don't know. I mean, they just showed up. I'm like, well, you don't know why it would. No, I mean, I pled guilty. Nobody told me why they showed up.

So then, of course, I ordered the documents. I come back and I'm like, okay, do you know a guy named Pookie? They're like, what? I'm like, yeah, he robbed a place. And then I start in there like, oh, my God, that's how they got the, yes, yes. And, you know, break it down. So a lot of the stories are, you know, they're, they're super, they're super interesting. A lot of them have not a lot of them will probably.

70% of those stories haven't been covered. There might be an article, but we're talking about a small 500-word article, maybe another one about sentencing, and that's it. So they, but these are stories that you would hear, I would hear in prison and I would sit there and go, like,

this is like, this is like the movie heat. Right. Or this is like, how is this the, this is the wolf. This is better than the wolf of Wall Street. Right. This is insanity. And,

know, of course, it just never happened because the guy got 17 years and the other guy got 12 and this guy, these guys are still in prison. And then, of course, when they get out, they don't want to talk about it. They just want to try and reaclimate themselves back into society and just forget about it. They still have to live their life. So nobody's out there turning it into anything. Yeah. So anyway, and like I said, my story's on there. You should go there, you know, if you do, go. As a matter of fact, you don't even have to read it. I have an audible version of The synopsis. Awesome.

I know what I'm doing tonight, so I'll be looking at those. I mean, yeah, yeah, you got to check it out. Yeah. The website, like, there's like a little summary and you, it allows you to either read the whole, the full-length article, or you can listen to the, to the narrated version. So, yeah, and my story is there. It's called shark in the housing pool. It's got a big shark on the cover. It's not a great cover, but whatever, it's fine.

Love it. Yeah. Interesting. I actually had two more that I was going to put up. But like I said, one was picked up by Rolling Stone. The other one, actually, I just had it edited because I'm a horrible speller. Like I could, I always get something. I could read the same sentence four times and I'll still miss something.

So I typically send it off to be edited from a guy in prison. And he'll send it, he'll send it to, you know, three guys in prison, they'll all read it and come back. And I'll have, you know, 30 corrections and I'll make them. And then I may or may not put that up because I'm supposed to be working with a production company. And sometimes they don't want you to put it up. So I might just put it up. I might just put it up. And then, because I haven't signed anything yet.

That's what I might do. So anyway, yeah, you got to, you have to look into it. I will do. um all right well what what uh you got some other some other stuff but you're not talking about it you know anything specific yeah no yeah i i have a couple you know yeah like i said i have a few different ones um you know books i've optioned articles so yeah it's just kind of a game of we'll see i'm going to see which one goes first um you know at this point though yeah it's all quite in the formative stages so it's best not to say it just not to jinx it um

publicly on a podcast episode but no i have a couple i could talk about i have one script i've written about a socialite um who pulled off a car bombing in 1996 with a hitman um that's a crazy one i've had that book up crime mm-hmm yep that one's a true crime and happened in 96 this woman pam phillips had her husband ex-husband blown up uh wild story with a lot of twists and turns kind of a bit of like a female i've it's been called a female american murderer to a lot of people um i have one about a kidnapping in texas that took place in the 80s um you know a lot of like in that realm so i'm sure i'm going to go down your website's rabbit hole and be like you know but yeah i i try to write a lot i treat you know i treat writing like a you know

she means like a daily ritual you know i wake up in the morning early and i i start writing pages because that's how i like to get my brain going and you know the creative flow so you know And I know you're a writer as well, and it's, you know, I find it's like a muscle, you know, and like I treat it kind of like going to the gym. You know, you just have to do it even if you don't want it. You just got to go. And yeah, I was going to say I was on a pretty good, had a pretty good routine going until about probably two weeks ago. Like I was wait probably for several months. I, you know, sometimes it just, it breaks down.

Like you wake up at, I wake up at like three or four in the morning, come downstairs. work, you know, basically writing up notes for, you know, into a paragraph or two and, you know, slowly put together, you know, take an outline basically to slowly start putting together the story. And I was doing great for, I'm telling you, several months. And then a couple of months ago, so I forget exactly what threw me off. And I've, I've been slipping, I'm going to sleep until five, you know, because, you know, I got a really, five still good. I, I, I, I'm still good. I, I, I, I'm up at six, and that's hard for me. Yeah, well, but I go to the gym at six.

So, I mean, it's like I'm up at five, but by six you're leaving, you can't get anything done in an hour. I need two or three hours to kind of, you know, get my, read through everything, get situated and say, okay, this is there what this. This seemed, this seemed crucial before. Now it's not. This seemed crucial. Now it's not. This is, you know, and you start, you know how it is. Like, you do a ton of research and you throw out 85% of it and you're like, because, you know, it's about.

like how much it fit into an hour oh yeah and you know first first drafts always suck you know you just have to get through it and do the next one the next one and you know the joy they say the joy of rewriting come the joy of writing comes in rewriting I think that's true you know

because the first draft's hard and painful you just know it's going to be bad but then you just redo it and you know I think I had somebody well this was a literary agent one time telling me he's like like the hardest thing of the world is to stare that blank page you know but once you've got the stuff written down going back and rewrite it like

that's where the talent is like that's easier it's more enjoyable it's when you're just staring like you know even you know how it is even starting that the first sentence yeah but then you sometimes you start the first and then it just goes and goes and goes and goes you rewrite it's great but yeah it's um but i do love it i do love writing me too yeah yeah um Listen, man, I could talk forever. I don't know if you notice that. I'm a talker. I am too.

We're talkers. We're talkers. Well, thank you for having me on, Matt. This was a lot of fun. And, you know, I'm looking forward to reading some of your books. And, you know, I know you call yourself a all kinds of things. But, you know, I think you're an example of someone who turned your stuff around. You know, you became right over.

I can still go bad. The director of American murderer warns you, don't. No, things are just, I would say that things are just too good out here. Like honestly, like, you know, I don't know that you need to go to prison for 10 or 15 years, but you go to prison for six months or a year and you come out, you're like, God, what is everybody complaining about? It's amazing out here. Life is so good.

Even when it's bad, it's still pretty good. so yeah it definitely puts things in perspective for you or for me anyway you probably have your head on on on straight anyway hey you guys i appreciate you watching thank you very much i hope you like the interview do me a favor if you like the video share it subscribe hit the bell so you get notified also leave me a comment in the comment section i'm going to leave the the link to to the American murder website or a link to where you can rent it on YouTube. I'll figure that out. I'll talk to Matt and we'll figure out what we need to put in the link in any of his

social media. We'll also put in the description. We'll put some links there. So once again, I really appreciate you guys watching. And thank you very much. And check out some of the other videos. See you.