Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - EX CRIMINALS REVEAL ALL W/ JOHN ALITE & MIKE DOWD

Episode Date: May 29, 2023

EX CRIMINALS REVEAL ALL W/ JOHN ALITE & MIKE DOWD

Stop. Do you know how fast you were going? I'm going to have to write you a ticket to my new movie, The Naked Gun. Liam Nissan. Buy your tickets now. I get a free Tilly Dog. Not included. The Naked God.

Tickets on sale now. August 1st. Big Herk is, I did his channel. He stands up and walks around the room. Yeah. He's like, I got this fucking rat in my house. He's furious. Hey, this is Matt Cox, and we're going to be doing an interview with John Elite and Mike Dow,

and I've actually interviewed Mike Dow before, and so check this out. So how did you get on the commercial? Oh, how does that work for you? My booking agent actually saw Home Title Lock, and he said to me, he said, hey, this Home Title Lock, like they protect people, they monitor people against doing what you did. You want me to contact them and see if they want you to be like a spokesperson? And I was like, fuck, yeah, of course I do. I said, I mean, if you want to, I'm like, I didn't think to, I don't even know how I'd get in touch with them.

And he's like, yeah, yeah, I'll look into it. And like two hours later, he goes, okay, there's a girl name, Jennifer, she's going to be sending you an email. Like, he just had it all linked up. She's going to, she's within the next day, she's going to hit you up. She's going to, I gave her your stuff. She'll contact you 20 minutes later. Boom, email from Jennifer. And I'm like, she's like, hey, can we set up a call the next day?

We set up a call. A month later, they're flying. line me out to Oklahoma to be in a commercial. Hey, Matt, can you give the people that don't know what your charges were and what you did? You give him a little override. I met him from the TV, too, you know. He cut me off again.

I know. It's a con. What do you want to do? You want to talk about why he's here? You know, why, Matt, because he thinks he's slick because he's wearing this nice jacket today. I've been pink today. It looks good.

Last time we did a show, he wore something pink. And everybody made a comment. I'm still wearing pink. You all wearing a shirt. Yeah. but anyway so yeah go ahead i'm sorry no go ahead no you go no no because some people you can i did a show i did a show i did a show with matt but in fact your number one show matt i mean i i hate to say it yeah yeah i got like 120 000 uh views or something and it was your first one

well i think it's going to be number two now after after that because i'm here that's true so so yeah so yeah so john you wanted to know what kind of what what was situation yeah yeah i was uh I was a mortgage broker in Tampa, and I basically was committing fraud periodically. Oh, so you actually had a job. Oh, I didn't know. No, I didn't know that. You didn't know, what do you?

Are you serious? I'm serious. I didn't know that. Yeah, I was a mortgage. I went and I got, I was dating this chick, and she became, she was a stripper. And so, of course, as soon as she graduated school, as soon as she graduated, graduated, she actually did put herself through college,

stripping. So she graduated with a degree in finance. She met a guy who owned a mortgage a lender at the strip club and he offered her a job because obviously if you own a legitimate company and you're in a strip club, you're thinking

how can I hire these strippers? They would make great salespeople. So he hires her very soon afterwards he started banging her, you know, but I'm sure it was, you know. Before you or after you? No, no. Well, well, well, while we were living together.

But not in a relationship. No, he was married. You and her. No, I was living with her. Oh. He starts banging my girlfriend. But I end up, but I don't know this. John, could you imagine?

I don't know this. I was banging his girlfriend. What would you do? Ask him if I can join in. He says, knock on the door. Hey, let me in there. So she says to me initially, you know, I should have known something wrong, by the way.

You know why? because she said to me, when she first met the guy, she's like, oh my God, he owns this lender, he owns a lending company, he's got a bunch of branches, this and that, he flips houses.

You know, he said he'd help us flip houses and I was working construction at the time. So I go, hold on a whole lot. Is this, this is going to be, I thought an hour and a half

when he said it's going to be a little bit of, listen, guys write me in all the time. You work construction. Wait a second. They always write me in. I says, man, when he does this, don't you want to shoot?

Don't you want to shoot them? They ask me, I'm not. I'm used to. Wait, wait, wait. Now we have two jobs. You did construction prior to being a mortgage broker. No, no. I'm telling you how I became a mortgage broker. You're not paying attention. Yeah. I got it. I told you I was dating the chick. Right. We're living together. Right. She comes home from her job, stripping one night says, I met this guy. He owns a lending institution. He wants, he wants to help us flip houses. So she was pushing this agenda because I was

working construction. She's saying, hey, we can start flipping houses. So she's, banging him. Not yet. But when they start banging, then you fuck him because you get in his mortgage business and then you start. He's banging nails. Not fuck him that way. I mean, yeah, yeah. No, what happens is, is I should have known something's wrong because she kept saying, you should go, you should be a mortgage broker. You should be a mortgage broker. And then one day she stopped mentioning it. But by this point, I want to be a mortgage broker. Right. So I say, I want to be a mortgage broker. I fly up, He, I go meet him. He says, okay, I'll hire you.

He flies me to North Carolina. They train me, Greensboro. I fly down. I start working at the mortgage company. He immediately transfers her to Sarasota. So I'm in Tampa. She's in Sarasota. She has to move out.

He buys a rehab that's actually a very nice house and moves her in it. I still, I'm naive. Because the thing is, this guy's like, he had freckles. He's a fucking ginger. He got freckles. He's goofy looking. he's he's got blonde Yeah but he had the sole look of anybody

He had green He had money It was green ginger So I literally when people are making comments Like he's banging her And I'm hearing overhearing this at the office I'm thinking Look at me

Yeah Yeah yeah yeah He's not fucking banging her Look at me Are you out of your fucking mind He's a doucheback And he's got like three fucking kids And a wife

What are you talking about? Delusional The point is is that I start doing really well And that company get folds it goes under and i and i at that point realize she she's fucking him right and you know i say yeah all right i this is what's going on i don't believe you it's over we we end up breaking up i end up start going working for another company right for about three or four months then i

opened my own company but you know the problem is by that point i'm already committing a little fraud but that's what i was saying before i thought it was justifiable for you to fuck him over thinking yeah but you didn't really get him i didn't really get him i didn't really get him Yeah, yeah. I didn't get him. And look, ultimately, his,

this is funny, his ex-wife knew something was wrong. She started hearing stuff. Right. She has a fucking private investigator follow him when he flies to Florida and pictures everything. Then she divorces him.

The two of them end up getting married, having a kid. So he divorces his wife. She and I, you know, we break up. They get married. They have another kid and they're still married to this day.

So from her point of view, it's a romantic story. from my point of view, she's a whore. Right. But both versions are true. I mean, you know, you are very logical. Yeah, good for her. Yeah.

I mean, you know. Now, how many years they together now? Oh, God, they've been together. It's got to be 20 years. 15, we have 20, almost 20 years. When you save yourself with divorce, actually. Wow, that's actually quite a, right? It's almost romantic in a way.

I hate this. From her point, yeah, I think I see it. And honestly, they had a lot in common. You know, she played softball. He was played minor league ball. You know, he was, he was. he was probably perfect for her. So anyway, I start committing a little bit of fraud here, a little bit, just nothing.

Okay, I hate to say this. Go ahead. Because there's no little bit of fraud. It's black or white. But I start committing fraud to get people alone. You come in. You made, you made 80,000 last year. But if you made, and you don't quite qualify for the loan for the house you want to buy,

but if you made 85,000, you could get the loan. Right. So I change your W-2. I alter the document. Right. Put it in. Nobody catches it. It goes through.

You get the loan. I get my commission. So that ends up blowing up I start doing more and more and more I got to the point where If you just walked in the door You're getting alone Like you have a pulse

Unless you just claim bankruptcy I'm getting you alone You figure out You figure out how to do it Very quickly Figured out every little And you're getting your peace Well and every time

You get away with a crime You become emboldened Yes of course I'm smarter than them Absolutely I can do this And then it becomes a challenge Right

Well that was like all lives though John Yeah I mean every time you got away I mean, you did it with a pen. I did it with a gun. I mean, you know, but it's still... Yeah, but wait, wait. Did you have mortgages?

Did you have homes? Yeah. Did you... Of course. How'd you get a loan? You went in with a gun? No, I went to... Back in those days, it was Greenpoint Savings.

So I had the guys in there. Yeah, yeah. So he had a guy like me. A couple of days, I'd get a million if I wanted a million and a half. I'd pay an extra couple of points to him. Right. Like, I would have... I would have...

I had, like, I had, like, no job. Like, I don't even know what you do. You come in, but you've got decent credit. Right. You know, or maybe no credit, but you've got 20% to put down. Well, I'm going to make up the fact that you've got a job. I'm going to make up your rental history. I'm going to make up the down payment, the bank account, everything.

You need him right now. You know what me and him have in common? You know what we got in common, right? You know what I'm a New Yorker, right? Right. But my case was based out of the middle district of Florida, Tampa. Okay. Okay.

So we know what it is. This is a strict district. The strictest in the country, actually. Yeah. So this was a bad place to fuck around with fraud. This is what I'm getting that. Yeah. You should have picked another city.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I know guys in other parts of the country where they're like, I can't believe you did any jail time at all or other countries. They're like, ah, you would have gotten three years.

Yeah. And they would have let you do it on home confinement. Right. They consider incarceration. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Here's rough. They don't play. Hammering. Yeah. So, but what ended up happening was,

um, eventually I end up getting caught. I get a charge. I get a slap on the wrist. I, or slap on the hand. I get three years probation, but I instead of saying, hey, you know what, fuck it, I'm going to start selling used cars.

This didn't work out. So I lost my mortgage company. I actually sold it to somebody else, transferred into their name. A friend of mine was a CPA, and he's running it, he's paying me. And then I kept committing fraud. So I opened up a development company, and I start making synthetic identities, like fake people. So I figure out how to get social security to issue me social security numbers. to people that don't exist.

And I would create a fake profile. I get secured credit cards, make the payments, and after like six months, they would have 700 credit scores. So now I've got this person who's got his own SOC, his own data,

his own source, his own driver's license, everything. You created someone. A fake person. Right. And then I would have that person go and buy a house for $40,000

in Ybor City. You know, Eibor City. Yeah, right. They were shitholes back then, right? They're still shitholes. But now they're expensive. Now they're $400,000. for the same shith hole.

So I'd buy a house for like 50,000, and I would record the value of the house. I'd record the sale at $200,000. Right. So that's a $200,000 sale. And so I did that where one guy's buying five houses, one guy's buying six, one guy's buying four, all different people. And so the area went from the medium price of, let's say, $75,000 up to like $250,000. And then I would refinance the house, pull out $150,000, $200,000. out of each house.

So each guy gets about a million dollars. And then I make a few payments, let him go in foreclosure. Bank would take the house back and they just think, oh, we lent too much money on the house and they never thought fraud. Right.

So I walk away with the money. That went on for a couple of years. I got 11.5 million. And then at some point, the FBI gets involved. I have a buddy that got caught in the bank. And when they grabbed him, he said, look, I, you know, I don't, you know,

he don't want to go to jail. Right. I can give you a guy who's running a huge fucking scam. This was in Orlando in Tampa. So he works with a tax. Force. They come to arrest me, but I have a friend who's a sheriff's deputy who comes to me and says, you're going to be arrested the next couple days. So I take off on the run. I go off on the run. Another guy. On the run. Did you go with me like in Brazil and Cuba and Africa? Oh, no.

No, bro. I'm scared. He ran around the block. I can't. Would you run? I went to Atlanta. Oh, okay. Yeah. So I went to Atlanta. I go to Atlanta. You saved yourself a lot of headaches because I spent two and a half years in Brazil penitentiaries. No, I mean, look, like here's the thing. Everybody said, why didn't you leave the United States? Oh, I did. I went to, you know, I went to, you know, I went to Italy, you know, I went to Greece. I went to Croatia. Like, I traveled.

I went to, I've traveled. I had false passports. So I, by that point, I figured out how to get driver, the DMV to issue me driver's license, how to get, uh, the state department to issue me false passports. I've had over 20, over, over, is it not over? I've had about two dozen. Oh, you're better than me. I got caught with six. Six and, well, another one was kind of like a passport, so seven.

So I actually only got caught with about six when they caught me, but I've had that many. So I actually didn't even caught with them. My girlfriend at the time, as soon as I got in trouble, she fucking went straight to the bank, got the safety deposit box, went straight to the secret service. He said, here's six fucking passports. I didn't know anything about them. Yeah. Like, wow, I mean, you didn't even hold out for a little bit.

They're good. They're good. How about a negotiation? hated. You're not even in trouble. Yeah, right. Yeah, so I took off on the run, sold another like three and a half to four million, got caught in a bank one time, talked my way out, convinced him I wasn't, I hadn't done anything. They let me go. I was on the run for three years. And then they caught me. Eventually they caught me. And I got, when I went to prison, I got 26 years in prison. When I was in prison, when I was in prison, when I was in prison, and, you know, and look, and like literally tried not to get the 26, gave up everybody I fucking knew, desperate to fucking give up everybody I know. You're shy about that. You shy.

I'm, I'm ready to cut everybody's fucking throat. Like at this point, everybody's cut my throat. By this point, like the first time I got in trouble, I didn't say anything. Right. I'm like, I'll take the, they even told me, my lawyer told me, I can get your charges dropped. You haven't been indicted yet. so we can do pre-trial intervention just go into your

your mortgage company and bring five or six of your most egregious files from your brokers give them to the FBI, work with them, I'll get you so that you won't even have to get indicted and I'm like, not doing it. Yeah, you're a tough guy. I've seen Godfather.

Yeah, tough guy. In my mouth. So, you know, if I'd known then, I would have shown up at the weekly meeting with a dolly and said, help me get the fucking slowdown. I helped the guys load it up in the back of a truck and said, look, I'm just suggesting you guys get a lawyer

do the right thing. And I'd have driven it straight to the FBI. You should have called Duke Mandel. Do you know who that is? No. He was one of my partners and they caught him in a little scam. Nothing's major with mortgages. Right.

Then a little bit with weed. And he wired up and, you know, against me, he couldn't get me on a wire though. He tried. But, you know, he was giving up everybody in his mother. So, you know, he owns a couple of places here in Tampa stuff. He owns scores. He owns a couple of nightclubs.

He got very rich off of me. And later on, I guess, off of everybody else, he didn't hold out at all. He just gave everybody up. Well, listen, I didn't know any better. Like, I mean, to me, I thought everybody was going to, you know, be loyal. And there was a street, there was a code. Yeah, right. Yeah, well, so, yeah, so, I mean, John, so, like, you guys did a little fraud.

And you did, my big fraud was my Corvette. Yeah. Yeah, I had, yeah, I had, they gave the keys to some guy, Vinny, and Vinny took the car. you know and then they actually called me in you know the investigator was probably a retired cop because they're all all the investigators are retired cops right right so you had somebody steal your corvette i had somebody steal my corvette i gave them the keys and i went away for a couple days and i came back and oh my reporter my car stole and of course they had more questions for me than i even thought of well how did they come from your driveway how did they get there where's your

second set of keys you only have one set where's the other set you know a lot of i'm like wait Why are you questioning me? I'm the police. You're questioning me? I said, just give me my money. It's like $27,000. I'm supposed to get in a check, you know? And boy, oh boy, I tell you, of course, Kenny gave that up.

Kenny's the guy from the 75 documentary. I don't know if you're familiar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I saw it. You saw it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so the 75 documentary, Kenny was the one who gave them. Listen, he gave, so when I was, so.

So, turned to put the glasses on. The connection, yeah. The connection is. The connection to this whole situation is... Listen, you got three guys in a room here. How many years did you do? About 18. All right.

And you did? 13. 13. And I did... I got a 14-year sentence. I did 12.5. So we got a lot of... Oh, you're talking about time you actually did.

I'm doing... Yeah. 12.5s. It's a lot of time you did. Yeah. I'm talking about prison. Yeah. Yeah, I thought you met, you know, on vacation.

It's not a good. No. No, but between the three of us, there's a lot of... 40 fucking... There's a lot of time. That's 43 years. There's a lot of time spent behind the, you know, the pen here, you know. But, but the, what got us there, obviously was what we did, you know, the things that we did.

But with Kenny, when I was out on bail, I mean, I don't know if you know, like, did anybody ever put a wire on against you? Yeah. They did? Yeah. And you? Yeah. So, yeah, so I didn't know that about you. Yeah.

You know, Kenny put the wire on, and he went down the list. He must have had a pre-de-de-they, they must have gave him a predetermined. on who they wanted to know about. He went down the list, what about this guy? What about this guy? What about this guy? So by the time I get pitched, they know what my mother has.

They know what my mother did for the last 30 fucking years. So you... Well, I'm going to tell you something. You know the old days in on the causeway? Yeah. They renamed the hotel there. So we used to stay there on a regular basis.

Am I playing with the glasses? Yeah, very good. Actually, not just the pink. It's pink and the black and white. So we would air a couple of guys. We get a sweet, double-refer. We're in Tampa? In Tampa, right on the causeway.

And this is one occasion. And we go out the front door, but we also have a back door that goes to the pool. You know, because I always wanted bolts, you know, because I just come down with five, six guys and get the suites. So we go out. We leave the room. And I told the guy before we left, make sure you lock that door. You know, make sure you check it and you lock it.

So he did. We left and I forgot something. I said, hey, you know what? Make a U-turn. I got to go back. Oh, the U-turn. We go back. The U-turn.

And the key won't work for the door. So I go try it again. He goes, it won't work. I said, we went out the front door. So that bar can't be on the door. You know, you got that bar. So when you put the key in, the bar's there, it won't work. So I tell one of the guys, after a while, I says, go to the desk and bring the guy.

So the manager comes over, he knows me. And I says, hey, the door won't open. And you can see his face. And I says, my other friend, Frankie, go around the back and see if we can get in the back door. And the back door's wide open. So they were trying to wire up my room. I was going to say. And we came back and they ran out the back.

So that was just one occasion. I mean, I had so many different, you know, they had so many different investigations on me and trying to set me up with, you know, wiring up apartments, wiring up guys like Duke, wiring up, you know, Duke flew into Philadelphia, actually tried to wear wire on any airport, but I knew what he was doing.

So, you know, there was, and Tampa's very proactive, you know, when they're after you. They don't lay back, you know, so. They're proactive. Yeah, yeah. Then I had another agent that came and tried to set us up on a sting, and we met with him, and, you know, we foiled his thing.

We knew he was an agent. I literally, when this chicken or husband wore a wire on me, I knew in the middle of the conversation, I realized, oh, my God. But what made you realize it? So what was the key? Because there's always something. So this other mortgage company,

I had run a bunch of loans through them. Right. They got busted. Right. Or they got their, the F, I just knew they were being, I knew they were being investigated by the FBI. Right. And I just refined.

This chick's house to get her like $75,000 to pay her attorney. Right. As soon as she gave him the $75,000, he said, you should turn this guy in. You should wear a wire against this guy. So she goes to the FBI. She and her husband get a wire on and they call me up and they go, listen, can you meet us at the pizzeria down the street? You know, I was like, yeah, yeah, sure, no problem. So I go to the pizzeria and I walk in.

I'm like, hey, what's up? I sit down. And it turns out there's an agent, of course, sitting next. I don't know that. And this is funny because afterwards, y'all found this. I realized what had happened. Usually it's after, I know.

Well, I'm sitting there going, I said, so what's going on? She goes, look, the FBI came in. They seized all of our files. And they're asking questions about your, my wife at a time. They're asking questions about your wife. And I went, well, because those are little bad loans I had done.

And I went, oh, I said, fuck. And she said, so they're asking a bunch of questions. Like, holy shit. You didn't tell them the W-2s were fake, did you? You didn't tell them the paystubs were fake, did you? You didn't tell them. Like, I just, I'm bleh. Yeah, yeah.

You fucked up. You fucked up. And halfway through, I sit there and I'm like, holy shit. And I look up and the agent, which I found out later was their agent, has a piece of pizza. And you know how they put the napkin under the pizza? He had rolled it up and he was eating the pizza and eating the napkin. And I go, excuse me, sir, sir, hey, I go, sir, like that. And finally, you could tell he's like trying not to look at it.

And I realize, and I now realize. like he he was like any any idiot would go yeah what's up man i go yo sir sir sir and so they're like what what are you doing what are you doing yeah why he looks at me he goes like that i said bro you're eating your your napkin and he goes what i go you're eating your napkin bro and he goes oh god i'm i'm sorry thank you thank you and i remember pete which was the guy the husband he's like huh he's fucking fucking mad and and i'm and she's like and they're all released and they're all relieved then I thought, that's weird. So that was one thing.

Yeah. But then I say, I say, okay, listen, I said, here's what you do. When you talk to the FBI, just tell them that you never actually met my ex, my wife. You tell them you never met Kayla. You never, and they go, well, we can't lie to the FBI. And I went, what? Yeah, he slipped. I go, what do you can't lie to the FBI?

And I said, you've been lying the whole fucking time. They goes, what are you talking about? I said, bro, I just refinanced your fucking house using. They didn't know that, though. No, they didn't know that. Right. I said, you've been using fake W-2s and pay stubs. I said, you're fucking lying.

You're still committing. You are. Yeah, right. You are. Pete goes, he goes, stands up. And he says, we've never lied to the FBI. We may not have told them everything, but we've never lied. Yes.

You're lying. I remember. Exactly what happened in my fucking situation. I thought, what the fuck is. Who's he talking to? Like he, and I thought, oh, fuck. And I looked at. Because I wasn't really friends with her fucking husband.

Like she and I, she had been my manager. We'd worked together before. I looked at it and I went, well, fuck. I said, I hope you're getting something for me like that. And she looked at me and she fucking starts crying. Just tears to me. And she says, uh, she goes, I don't have to go to jail. And she goes, Matt, I, I have a daughter.

And I go, I don't have a son. Yeah. I looked at it. I went, I said, listen, listen. I said, you know what? I said, tell the FBI to call me on the phone. do not come by my office because when they came to her office

she had like six people working for them they all quit right right and I knew my fucking 12 guys they were gone they're already telling me not to talk to her when you're in that position everybody bandaged you when my investigation started down here in Tampa

I had a parking company and it was a multimillion dollar company and I had guys like Duke Mandel that was cooperating then I had 717 your Cardi brothers they were cooperating against me Then I had, Terry Skaglione, who was one of my partners, he was an informant. And, you know what, in those days, I was known actually as a mob guy.

I was later on in Cigar City Magazine. Terry's grandfather was a made guy. So when all these guys are cooperating, the FBI comes in with a sting, and they start making up phony cards and going to parking companies of only my lots at all my places, but nobody else's. And I go, this ain't right. And I tell Terry at the time he's my partner, do not talk to this guy. don't threaten him. I'll set up a meeting. So I set up a meeting for him to meet us at the Causeway, at the restaurant of Causeway. Remember the restaurant on the left? I figured what it was called right before. Gators? Gators? Not Gators. What is that restaurant that was there for years?

There was like a Sandy Palakant, wasn't there? It was right before those two places that were there that were popular. Whatever the place is on. It was a little restaurant where you pull up. It was right on the water. Anyway, we meet there and he comes with this woman and I get them drinking. And when he goes to the bat, and I ask her about five, six questions. And I said, don't talk when he sat down. I asked him five or six questions. Like, what kind of card you come in? When did you get married? Where'd you meet? Do you have a dog? What's a dog's name? He couldn't answer him. But, and he goes, I go, listen, I know who you are. Yeah. And he says, he goes, how do you know? I goes, you only gave cards out to my lots trying to fuck with my people only and nobody other companies.

So I knew you were trying to do something to me. I says, then, your cards are cheap. So if you had all the money you had. You should have spent some more money. He goes, do you need a friend? I don't need any friends. I said, I got enough friends. I said, see you later. I have a good day. But I knew what you were doing. Because he was trying to get me to clean money from. He said he had an organization. He said he owned nightclubs offshore. And he was trying to maneuver me in a fraud for drug running and whatever. Money was for my pocket company with cash. But I had all these guys and they're all involved. They're all trying to set me up at the same time besides the agent. So you know, later on I lose my company, but this was a regular thing.

When you're on the street like this, they're going to come out every which way. You're not going to last long for people who think that, and that's always my message in all my shows, is do the right thing with your life because it short-lived if you think you're going to get away with taking all that money because 99.9% of people are going to get caught and guys are going to give you up because their life's going to come before yours and their families. And if you think any different, it's naive. And you learn the hard way.

So what happened with me was I was out on bail. Now, we're going to get to the Newt story. But this is the Newt Gingrich's thing. But I was out on bail and Kenny, I don't know. We're partners, right? You know, you want that one guy, you know? So I'm like trying to make a decision, do I run, do I not? I go to Astoria Manor.

I meet the owner, Estoria Manor, who I'm good friends with him. I've become a friend to him through Joey and Joey, my friend Bega Donuts, was good with them. So I became friends with him, and he says to me, this is the shrimp boat in Nicaragua gig. I'm going to, I'm going to be a shrimp boat captain in Nicaragua. So I mentioned that to Getty, nah, I'm not interested in my, I got my pension. I'm going to try to just maybe get it. Wasn't Adam Sandler selling shrimps or something? What's this?

One of those comedies. You're thinking, the guy, the idiot that stands at the bus stop. Yeah, yeah. Forrest Gump. Forrest Gump. Yeah, yeah. He asked what every day. They're going to make me for.

Gumpin. And I don't care. I don't want to go to prison to life. You know, who wants to. There's a resemblance. So I'm running. Your turn with the glasses. So I'm running. I go on the, I'm going to run. I don't have any fucking, you guys are great with passports. I don't have anything. But I'm going to run anyway, okay? But I have to get the money. So while I'm out on bail, I don't know. Kenny's really cooperating. Yeah. I don't know. So Kenny, what do you want to do? You want to go? No, no, I'm good. I'm good. Maybe I get five years and do this. I don't want to do any time. But, you know, I'm not giving up my pension. I can't run and he can't run and keep his three-quarters disability pension that I got him for the rest of his life

He can't keep it so I don't know So he says he calls me he says you want to go fishing son what the fucks you want to go fishing for I got I got I want to go fishing I got bills to pay I got three four houses with mortgages on I got no job I got shit's going on bed he wants to go fishing because he's got a pension I figure He meets me at my one of my houses we sit down we get in the car he opens the window can he had hair like you perfect you know he and you and almost me so yeah so

and he never opened the window his fucking life because it would blow his hair so he gets in the car he adjusts the seat now why do you adjust the seat put the wire he put the fucking the transponder under the fucking seat of the car

I don't know this like I'm not later on and he's wearing a fucking wire. That's why he opened the window. He thinks, well, they think they get a better transmission with the wire because the window's open. He gets in the car, he's in the car

15, 20 seconds. He starts telling me about this fishing trip were going on. I'm yelling out of it. What the fuck fishing? I don't want to go fishing. I got no money. You want to go fishing? He goes, no, no, no. Remember we were talking about the strip? He didn't want to say, he didn't want to be the one to say

the words. It had to come from me. Otherwise, it would have been something that he instigated. I said, oh, you mean the shrimp boat captain in Nicaragua? He goes, yeah! He, like he jumps up and down. Like your friend there going, no, don't. The FBI, we never lied.

So now we're in the car, right? And we're driving, and I go one block, and there's somebody sitting there. I go, someone's in that car. Long story short, it was the agent. I was shaking the car. And they cut this out of the documentary. It was in the original, one of the originals.

He's in the car. rolling off the deal life, so I'm shaking the fucking, it's a Burgundy pathfinder, we're blacked out. You can't see anything. He's in the back, going back and forth, tossing all around in the car. He's saying, I'm going to have to roll in the street with this fucking guy. I got no guns. He knows that.

He can't shoot me. He knows I got no guns. So I go, Kenny, we got to check the car. Kenny's like, well, what's the difference if someone's in there or not? I went, you motherfucker. Are you serious? I mean, someone might be following us and you don't want to know?

What's the difference if they're following us or not? So we get in the car, we drive around, I see another car. I go, another one. Guys, reading the newspaper. You're reading the newspaper on a block by my house, two fat detectives. Come on, that's stupid. So now we're driving, and I go to him.

So he starts going down the list. I'm like, this isn't right. This isn't right. Can I mean, we're going, this guy, this thing. Remember we did this? Remember we did that? Remember battered? Remember the car? Remember the money? Remember the fucking heroin?

All this shit, Gordo, Eddie, all these fucking cop this cop that cop he's mentioned all these names and finally i go to him what about the cash in your refrigerator in your freezer that they missed don't talk about my money don't talk about my cash i'm like oh we can only talk about my money in my case wants to know he's asking me if i got money in the cayman islands yeah like i'm like i got bank you know like i got i got a hundred thousand cash laying around you might have found out well yeah you might have been you might have been i used to live in the cayman too when i was on a run yeah but this but don't talk about my

don't talk about my fucking money and my refreeza but can we talk about mine? Right, right. He goes, so you know what his answer? He was good answer. The guy gave some good answer. I will give him credit.

He goes, I know about my stuff. I just want to know we're on the same page with your stuff. So it was a good answer, you know? Because if they asked me about Mike this and Mike that, I want to be on the same page with you with my answer. So the fucking cock sucker had a good enough answer

to get him through that, you know? And so you understand, I understand when you start telling me, I didn't lie to the FBI, he did, but he didn't tell the truth. He didn't tell everything. Yeah. Just like Kenny, he didn't tell him that there was 15, 20,000 cash in his fridge. And now he was hiding it from them and he didn't want to blow his fucking deal. That's why they get scared.

Because they say to you right up, right? Yeah, don't lie. Don't lie. We catch you lying. You're done. I know a bunch of guys that were in prison that, like, they just lied about what, like, and then they'll take all your. information. They'll use your information. And then they're looking for any reason at all to try

and fuck you out of. Correct. So that's what he was scared of. And that's what that guy and that girl, they were afraid of because they didn't admit that their home was illegitimately again, obviously. Oh, well, they had a ton of. Well, you know, it's like anything else. They're naive to the system. You know, when they're trying to manipulate a system and once that ball starts rolling, it ain't going away. You, we all know that. And you know, I missed one of the guys before actually when my car stuff was going on. Timmy Donovan. He's another guy that wanted to pretend like he was a gang.

He was friends with me since the kid. He ends up testifying against me. He got the agents involved in setting up stings against us. And then he testified in other trials for guys against guys. And, you know, he's been informed for a while. But he was one of these guys that was maneuvering on the street. And when he gets jammed up, he thinks he can back up and just give every person. buddy up. And then they find out the hard way that, you know, you're going to lie, you're going to

be fucked too. But, you know, he went forward and testified against me and some other guys and he ends up getting out from under it and he ran out of Tampa. But once this system starts on you and you're doing something, whether you're a gangster, whether you're mortgage fraud, whether you're an ex-cop or, you know, people that are out on the street don't understand when they put an investigation like on, you're done. You're done. When they know that you're the guy and they're going to target you. they have the resources this is America

and you're not beating them yeah I always I've mentioned this a couple of times is that guys have like in the when I did I did this show concrete right um

did you did you yeah I did concrete yeah he's an interesting guy interesting guy yeah yeah so I did concrete and like I got a ton of people that are reaching out to me you know they track me through

Instagram and Facebook and shit and messenger and start to be like hey bro can I talk to you yeah I go you know like like I'll help you commit your fraud again like we can you coach me on how to do it and I'll walk in the bank and all this and I'm always like bro I'm not going back to fucking prison and you know no that no bro I already do credit card fraud but I'm not at your level I'm like I'm not interested bro I'm just happy to be able to turn the fucking

TV yeah yeah my own my own my own channel change it I had one guy that was communicating with me right from New York right hey man I've been in trouble before I know like never never asked me anything just like hey just wanted to reach out and say if you ever need anything like I'm here for you ever come to fucking New York like I haven't watched your shit a bunch of time you I watch you on a couple podcasts you're a pretty cool guy I like you like how you're honest just real cool but he'd heard me talk about how guys keep reaching out to me asking me to help them commit fraud right so he didn't say anything um I'm so he never mentioned it this went on for six months one day he says hey my

girlfriend's in Tampa I'm flying down there just i've never heard about the girlfriend but i was like he's like we're wondering if you wouldn't mind grabbing some starbucks coffee you know you like coffee i said uh yeah all right yeah so he flies down we've all met people yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so media we meet people yeah whatever i mean i got i'm not scared you scared no there's a starbucks next to the fucking well it's good for your business when you're networking you know whatever yeah and i've got to go there there's it's right legitimate business i'm talking about yeah it's right next to the art the art place right yeah yeah no problem so i go and he he he

He comes and we have stuff, we drink some coffee. And I would sit down and we're two minutes in the conversation. And he's like, yeah, I own a, he owned a fucking, in Manhattan, he owns a hair salon. He's like, I've owned it for this long. My dad owned it. We have a long lease. We have this. Then my dad died.

So he goes on and on. Right. And I'm like, okay, cool. He said, yeah, you know, I can, the lease is coming up and this and this. And I don't want him to stay in Manhattan anymore. I'd like to get rid of it. I'd like to come down here. He is, you know, but the problem is, you know, money.

and he's like right now I got this much money I forget what it was a few hundred thousand right where I can do this and so I was like oh okay and he was like what um but if I could come if I could get like four like three four hundred thousand more I'd come down with a hair with half a million I could get a place I could do this I could do that I'm like right he said so want to let you know you know I told you I was in jail right I didn't give nobody up I'm like okay I'm thinking you did three years in a fucking state prison or a state fucking medium security person wasn't that okay but he's like I didn't give anybody and plus the kind of people he couldn't give up the kind of people you know what I'm saying

and they were family members and shit like you're not giving up your mom yeah you know so it's like okay okay I'm like right he's like so I want you know I'm a solid guy I'm like okay yeah and he goes um like if you could help me he's like I'll go in the fucking bank I'll do everything that you don't have to be on film and I'm like I go so he I let him make his pitch right right and I look at him I went okay okay I said first of all I said you don't have the skill set to figure this out. Secondly, because he wanted me to spend a week with me and have me teach him. Right.

I said, so I'd have to be involved. That's cool, bro. Like, I'll split everything with you. I said, I understand. I said, I appreciate that. So if I was willing to teach you everything that I know, get you up to a point where you could do it yourself, or if I was willing to set the whole thing up and you just, you're a crash test on me, you walk in the bank, you come out.

He goes, right, right? I said, what the fuck do I need you for? Yeah. I said, why would I split anything with? Why would I get a second, a codifend? Right. That can turn on me. No, I wouldn't do that, bro. I said, here's the thing.

I said, you don't have to. You'll fuck up along the way. You'll tell somebody. You'll get caught. I said, and you don't have to tell anybody. You've already got me indicted. Your cell phone has text messages. You now flew down here.

They have, they have the, I said, they have satellite images. You're making, yeah, your calls. I said, I'm in here. I said, in your phone. Global positioning. We're both here today. Same time. We're done.

Yeah. I said, I don't. ever have to say anything. I said, do you know how hard it is for them to indict me? Mr. Cox and this guy were in the same place at the same time. This guy, two months later, got a million dollars and walked away. And we caught him four months later when he told his girlfriend. I said, so they're going to say, even if you said, he had nothing to do with it. I said, they're going to say that to the grand jury. I'm getting indicted. When I go to trial, because I wouldn't testify to your trial, I said, doesn't matter. I can't get on the stand because they're going to say,

Mr. Cox, how many times you've been in prison? How many of this? I said, I'm done. So I said, they'll get three guys from the fucking jail say that I was involved they'll stand up the jury's like he's been indicted he won't get the fucking stand he's all this we can see the communications we can see the guy fly down these three guys say he did it

done mr. Cox he'll probably just get probation I said the judge will give me 30 fucking years and I'll never see the light of day again I said and you don't have to quit right I said that's the position I'm in I said so I appreciate you coming down and I'm so sorry that you had to fly down here to hear this, I could have told you

on a fucking phone call. I got up and I got my car and I left. Yeah, yeah. Because I'm done. Yeah, yeah. If the DEA came to me right now and said, we just indicted you on a 10 kilo conspiracy, I've never seen cocaine in my life. You know what I'd say? Can I get a deal? I mean, can I work with that. Yeah, right.

I'm done. I know. I know how you do it. Right. Nothing you can do. You go. I'm like, I already know got me. Can I get three years? Yeah. Can you put me here so that my so my girlfriend could go visit me while she hangs out whilst we hope right like for the six months that she stays on the phone so she finally gets tired of me saying money on my book I love you I love you can you please put money on my books God I feel bad I was felt bad for those guys yeah yeah Saturday morning where the fuck were you last night yeah you're talking about this right you know what I joke about everybody

on Friday night everybody after we go through count they run for the phone yes and especially back in the old days of McKee and some because you had late night. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they run for the phones and I would tell like a young guy that was in the joint. Beginning stages. It's beginning stages. Let them run. That line's going to dissipate in a minute.

Nobody's answer. Listen, their families all do the same thing. Yeah. I went to sleep. The baby was sleeping. I turned the ring of raw, blah, blah, blah. And they know everybody knows three quarters or nine-tenths and they're bullshit. Right.

So the next morning they wake up at the crack at the door and soon as the door. And they call the house like he said and they start yelling. Where were? are you, I know you are out. And it is what is. Listen, you can't blame them. They ain't going to stop their lives while everybody's in jail. So, you know, they're around for the good times. They go for the ride. As soon as the ride ends, everybody's

skirting out on you or testifying against you. Just the way it works. I showed up at Mariana. This makes me flamed. I show up at Mariana. Now, I've been in New York for two years. I get shipped to Mariana. And I meet this guy. His name is Stanislopoulos, whatever. Nice kid from New York. He's funny because he had a flat-ass in He was a hairy Greek guy, so he had hair from here to the down to his feet. He looked, so he could be naked and he looked like he had a cover on.

Anyway, so he says to, he says he got, they broke him in prison. They said to him, and I'm not going to say exactly what they said. Just picture right now, she's taking a massive dick right now, and you're sitting here in prison worried about it. just hold on it's happening right now you need to picture that happening right now because for the next 18 years sentence he got you know you got to remember you're done you're not you're not you're not home you're not hitting it it's getting taken care of without you he said I wanted to this is him I wanted to kill this guy that he told me that this woman I love that I got 18 years and she's

going to hang on by me he said I wanted to kill him but the guy was too big so I I couldn't do anything to him. He said, I sat in and thought about it. He says, for about two, three weeks. He said, then I realized nothing I can tell. You know, I was in Hillsborough, right? I'm sitting in a block. Guy's about six, six.

He comes back, and he took a three-year plea. Just what you said, three, and he was facing, I think, five or six. He takes three-year play. Another guy goes, and we told him to play this other guy. He goes and he blows trial, he gets 27 years. So he's crying, right? comes back, you know, can't blame the guy, right? He's crying.

It's normal. A human. Gangsters are human? Oh, yeah. And I cried like a small child. Yeah. And I've seen the other guy and he starts telling him, oh, man, stop being a punk, man. Take it on the chin.

You know, and so the other guy says, I should have cooperated. Now he says it, straight out. Everybody's sitting there. So he goes, what do you say, man? I'm a soldier. He says, don't talk like that. And then he says to him, oh, shit. Yeah, you're a soldier.

You got three years. He's a. a soldier three years. He was, I'm 40 years old. I got 27 years. My life's over now. Yeah. So, you know, and it's funny is because you said it before. And for the naive kids that are out there, the guy that's going to get 30 years, 27 years, 35 years, and you got this dummy talking about three years. Can't do three years. You know, three years, of course, you're going to be a soldier. Talk that shit when you're facing that 30 years. Because you know, they all talk that. And then until that time comes. And then that time comes. And then that time comes. And then that time comes

and they're seeing everybody turning on them. And they're getting 30 and all their friends are giving them up. And, you know, the usual, everybody's saving themselves and they're giving you up. Then the reality comes in. What do I do now? Because the reality is, guys are going to give you up. It comes to all of us at some point. Everybody gave me up.

I just named another guy, Mike Mallon. I can name them all. This is just the Tampa guys that were giving me up. You know, I had dozens of guys coming in, including a guard from a prison. I tried to set me up on a telephone that was working with us. So, you know, you're going to get everybody. and their mother run it in to try to save themselves and go against you. That's just the way it is.

And the guys that do stand, you said it early a little bit and you stop short, guys that talk, some of them are never offered to talk. There is no deal for them because they don't know anything because of maybe it's a bad crime. They killed a kid or killed a woman or something, so they're not going to offer them anything. Or they're not big enough, it's just for them to ask them for anything. So those are the guys that, you know, so when people say the jails are full of guys. but three quarters of nine-tenths of them or 99% of them would talk or are talking.

If they had someone to give up. Right, yeah. And guys really don't, oh, that ain't true. Yeah, it is true. If you know anybody in this life, it's true. And I've said it over and over. You know, you talk about mall because I was involved in a mob. Every boss and every crew was ratted.

Everyone. So, John, another thing, and the guys that have it ratted were working with the FBI men for years. Is this true? Yeah, of course. This is what you've said, we've come to know, right? I mean, you've heard about some of the stories, oh, my boss, so-and-so, oh, he'll give the information to the FBI for years,

so he could run his own crew without problem. Well, you know, this was Whitey Bulger in Boston. Right, right. This was Joe Messina when he got Cody War of Wire, and his whole crew, captains down were all talking. Chapo and Mayo. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't know about Chapo.

What about him? Chapo and Meyer were giving information to the, to the, to the DEA in Mexico for like a decade on their, on the other cartels. The rivals, yeah. On their rivals. Yeah, I've gotten that. You watch The Godfather? It's a movie, right?

It's a fantasy. It's a movie. Everybody loves it. But the part they don't, they leave out is their, every outfit is working with law enforcement on the street giving up the other outfit. They're dropping dimes on them. So Prohibition, if you watch it, this is what went on. So they could catch their load.

So what is that? Is that considered a rat? It's not a rat. You know, it just depends on what... So this dumb word, what people use is ridiculous. Yeah. Yeah. It's a... What was the guy? Big Herk. Yeah.

Big Herk is... I did his channel. Oh, did you? Oh, I know, bro. Are you serious? Oh, I know when you... I haven't because of what you said, right? You said... Yeah, in the middle...

Like, this guy I fucking contact... Hey, by the way, such and such. You know, I'm going to be in L.A. I don't know if you want me. Absolutely, yeah. I said, do you need to... You want to talk to me or anything? No, I know your story.

I know that okay cool he knows my story right I get there he comes in they sit down we start talking and he's like yeah yeah this and that and I and I should have known when I started telling my story I said yeah yeah I said so they caught my buddy who was actually my best friend right the second time like the one people wore a wire and he's like oh man I was like yeah well anyway they did what they did it's fine they got kids that's fine and he kind of like I looked at me I keep going yeah then I get to where my my buddy got caught in Orlando and told on me. And I said, he is, he is, fuck, your best fucking friend. And I went, yeah, well, he's got a daughter. I said, you know, he did what he did, whatever. And he's like, and you see it in his face, and I'm starting to realize.

I think I saw this for me. Yeah, when you, yeah, you just talked about this. Yeah. I remember. I'm looking at him thinking, I remember. I started thinking, I don't think he does know my story. And then so as when I get to the point where then they give me. But then you're just straight outside.

Oh, yeah, 26. Oh, I knew because by that point, I'm ready for the fucking shock value. Oh, yeah. Then the boom, I said, yeah, they give me. fuck it i said they catch me you know i said you know and they give me 26 years and uh and he's like 26 you can see in his face and i went oh yeah i said bro i said and oh and trust me i said i said like my lawyer told me to cooperate i said and he's oh no yeah i said oh no i fucking tried i fucking was ready to cut everybody's throat right i fuck and he's like now i realize oh you don't

you don't know my story i start bam bam here's what you don't see the card filled up so he had to cut the they cut the car and they cut the thing he stands up and walks around the room yeah he's like i got this fucking rat in my house he's furious he's furious and i realize like whole like this guy's huge yeah his cameraman who's also he told me they'd both been in the fucking in in the pen he's done state time he's fucking covered in tattoo yeah and i'm looking at him thinking i'm in a hotel room with these two fucking maniacs in the middle of covid the place is empty like this could go bad for me yes this could go bad

so instead of I start arguing back but instead of really going in hard like being a real dick like because I've had these conversations where I just tried to where the guy ends up just looking like I just make you annihilate him you're an idiot yeah like just telling him

you're a fucking you know but I realize I got nobody here these guys beat the fucking piss out no one can call 911 for you yeah but I start arguing with him but his whole thing was it was like it was like so no

you would never cooperate like no no no and i'm sitting there all i can think of is i've heard this a thousand times yeah yeah so you're you're yeah exactly i've heard just that so you you realize that you're fucking your next or a neighbor is is running a child sex right right right you know you know it's good and like in this i've had this conversation where they're always like oh i fucking take care of it myself really so because he's a pedophile you'd go kill him right right yeah yeah there's a list in every fucking state how many pedophiles have you killed that's right yeah yeah really had you gone around Oh, they all talk bullshit.

They don't know. They all bullshit. I say this all the time about the mob. I said, there's guys that cooperate all over the place. Bosses now. I'm not talking about underlings. Why don't you start there? And then maybe somebody will believe your bullshit.

Yeah. How come nobody's hitting any of these bosses all these years? So, you know, they talk shit, but they don't even own a gun three cores of these guys. That's why I make fun of them. I just said, and people say, oh, fuck him. No, the reality of it is the reality. I had good friends of mine that grew up with me. I get it why they cooperated against me.

Just what you said. I get it. I'm not going to go before their family. And if anybody thinks any different, they're full of shit. Or they're dumb and naive. How many people did you, and this is a question I'm asking, both do you?

Because, you know, how many people, did you, did you call up anybody or did you inform anybody? Listen, I'm going down, get on my back because I'm going down anyway. Did you? When I was in the pen. Do you know what I'm talking about, right? Like, I call up friends of mine and said,

listen, they already got indicted. but they didn't they weren't me they weren't the front page in the daily news they were there were nobody's in the case when i took off on the run i before i left i went to i had dinner and i invited liver like eight or nine people my brokers and i i told them all i said look i'm going on the run i'm taking off i'm like if you guys probably if you guys get indicted or get talked to by the fbi like tell on me right everybody tell on me tell them you didn't know anything it was me it was me like just just fucking like oh i'm not going to do that how many guys Every one of them

could sign an agreement, right? You know what I was going to say is when I'm in the pen, I'm getting phone call after phone call and message after message. This guy's rat, that guy's rat. And I'm looking at the guy. You had a fucking smuggled phones. You know, we're in Brazil.

Oh. I'm waiting. What prison were you? There's no. There's no. Oh, okay. Smog phones. And so some of the guys, you know,

we did the movie about Klaus and, you know, we discussed this. What movie? And we're doing a series called Nordic Narcos about Klaus's life. Is it out? Yeah, Brazil, and it'll be out next month. Okay. Yeah.

But so... I'm going to promote a little. Klaus were promoting you. Yeah. So, actually, I'm doing a radio show tomorrow in Denmark, I think 4 o'clock. So about the show and about murder and things like that. But when these guys are all rolling, one after another, I look at my friend, I go, this ain't no surprise. I mean, you know, I've been in the street my whole life.

I said, so the thing is, when you start. start hearing about the bosses, all going against you. And when you hear about the boss's guys and captains, now you're saying to yourself, you've got to laugh and say, they're so full of shit all this tough talk they all got. And they all got an excuse why they're meeting the FBI, why they're sitting down, why they're only giving a little information, why they do this is nonsense talk, you know as well as I do.

All these guys are talking. All of them are either doing it undercover snitches or their informants or whatever they're doing. So when people think when I was sitting there and think that they were going to do anything different, I'd be a fool to believe they're not going to talk. So when you talk to these guys, they know what it is. They know what all these guys are talking.

They know exactly what it is. So all you saw all the stand-up guys that the stand-up guys like you went to the meeting with eight guys, right? Yeah. I said, listen, I got a problem. I'm leaving. Cover your ass. No, I'm a gangster.

I'm not going to do it. Yeah. These guys are pen gang. With the pen. Yeah, yeah. Listen, nobody's killing. other in the mortgage and that's not they're not killing anybody in the mob even this ain't 40 years ago with the myth of the mob you know they were all trying to live off

for 40 years ago 30 years ago yeah this doesn't exist anymore yeah you had a handful of killings within the mafia in the last 20 years handful yeah you know this it's over with the technology with the sentences can't win away with anything today they're making each other and their underwear guys are wearing wires during the ceremony just one of two we might have hit her yeah come on it's done What is the Joey Marlino Skinny Joe

The Philly guy Yeah I was locked out with him How was he? Is he a nice guy? I mean I don't know You don't know either I mean I had lunch at his table Two or three times

He had no like in Coleman Right Like guys are coming up to me like Cox how much time you got him like I got 26 years I'm like but somebody could fuck up And tell me where there's a body I'll be out of here tomorrow

And they go oh that's how it is I go that's exactly how it is Like I'm not here to make friends Like I was no qualm And then when I actually got my sentence reduced and people, everybody knew, it was 10 times as bad. Oh, yeah, I guess I found that way to body.

Yeah, that idiot. Yeah, I'm not shy about it. Like, I'm leaving. Guys are like, damn, bro. Like, they're like, yeah, they're like, shit, man. So I guess you ain't the guy to fucking do nothing with it. I'm like, bro, you better hope they talk to you before they talk to me. And I'm telling them in the car on the way there.

And they're like, God. Damn, God. I was like, yeah, that's how it is. And, you know, just joking around and, you know, walk away. But the point is, is that Marlino's having lunch with me on a couple of occasions. Yeah. And Tommy's there. And Tommy, when we go to sit, like, Marlino's coming over to bring his trade.

He's like, listen, do not fucking say a thing about cooperation. Do not, if, like, he doesn't have any clue, he has no. And he sits down and eats with me and I fucking say a thing to him. Because Tommy's so flipped fucking out over it. Like, he's like, don't say a fucking thing. If he fucking knew that you did. And he, Marlino obviously has an issue, uh, with it. But he also got what he did a couple of years.

Yeah. You know, two years? Um, yeah, two years I think I got it. Yeah, yeah, but I mean. A gambling beef or something? How long time you get on that? Six months. Oh, God.

He got, yeah, you got, I think he got like six months. And listen, you'd have fought up. You could have fucking thought they gave him 10 years. Oh, yeah, no question. No question. He bitched and moan the entire, he fucking hustled and bitched and bitched and moan the whole time i was like what are you doing he's like i fucking believe they give me this much time i can't believe that i'm like are you you spent more time taking his

shit i spent more time taking a shit i stood in lines longer than you talking about like i need to get halfway house you got to call like he's bribing people go talk to the fucking counselor go this go that i'm like what are you doing bro it's six months it's a joke yeah you're gonna get halfway house calm down you'll get a few months and yeah fucking he's incredible fuck yeah honestly Like, he was one of the guys putting money on your books. He always had food. He's always like, you know, do you need anything?

You know, he did the whole thing. So he did a lot of bribe work there too. Yeah, but I'm saying he was actually a very good, like, good to me when we were in prison. So he was cool. Yeah, it was good to you. Yeah. The problem with him is, you know, he's so hyper. He has to be doing something all the time.

He can't calm down. Oh, okay. He's constantly. He's a little unstable. Yeah, we found a little bit of his instability. I don't want to get into that, you know. But, anyway, so you guys had. dinner lunch with uh joey yeah well they ate all they ate all the time what they call him skinny joey

i mean is that is that his nickname yeah yeah i don't know but they had they had it uh they had lunch all but i'm saying it's comical because i would go and sit at his table he fucking just you know hey what's how are you doing i remember sitting at a table i was telling you the other day we're in in mariana no no uh mckeon and uh and it's friend of mine scott uh scott ogan comes sits down a scott is spatial unawareness he's not aware of spatialness So he would be like eight guys We're watching TV And he put his back to eight guys

You know And like They'd be sitting right here So they couldn't see the TV in front of him And you know everybody in prison They're trying to be polite They don't want to be hey dude Move your fucking ass

You know so So oh they'd be looking around And like they'd be going hey They'd be go hey And all of a sudden I see Scott like come on I run over and grab Scott He goes what

I go can I come back I want to talk to you He goes what I go Can you stand over here There's eight guys behind You're trying to watch The fucking name and you're standing in front of him.

So he sits down at lunch with us one day. And he sat with me quite often, but there's another guy at the table who's just straight up convict all his life. This guy's a convict all his life. We're inmates. This guy's a convict. He's done state bids.

He's done everything in his life. This his whole life. This is his whole life. This is what he's done. Scott sits down. And he goes, takes up a fucking tissue and blows his nose at the table. The guy gets up and says,

you dirty motherfucker. Don't you? ever do that in front of me again. I'm like, God, I'm trying to grab him. Don't do that. And it was a hanker. It was a hanker like this big. But I told you the other day,

a guy did it at the child hall, right? I wasn't sitting there. I was in another table. And I didn't know the day before the guy warned him. He passed guests. The next day, or two days, whatever it was, a week out of because I wasn't at the table. I'm sitting.

I missed it. What prison was this at? That was McKean. Oh, yeah. The dream. What Lee was with me. Lee? So the guy must have passed gas again.

The guy just walked up and fucking hit him a shot and beat him all over the shower, which is a bad place to beat somebody. You don't want to fight a chapel. He's inciting a riot charges and all that. But guys don't understand prison. You know, a lot of things. Yeah, there's another time I was in Allenwood, and the guy has, you know, they all put their chairs in front for the TV and whatever.

You know, the routine. Somebody sat in his spot. So, no, I came in. I came in and there was no chair. and I put my chair there. And the guy taps me on the shoulder and he says, you know, I sit here every week. So, you know, you're looking at him now.

It's too late now. I'm there. Yeah. And I says, yeah, well, you know, there was no chair here. Yeah, but we've been sitting here for a year. Yeah, yeah. And in a way, because we know jail, he's got a point. Yeah. You know, but it's too late because I'm sitting.

And now I'm here. So you can't let him punk in. Yeah, right, right. Exactly. Even though he doesn't think, maybe he's not thinking like that. He's trying to think like. That we're okay. with each other.

Well, okay. Yeah. No. So now I'm not moving. I go, well, I don't know what you do every week, but I'm here. So now my friend comes in from the door and he's looking, he sees something's up. And he looks at me and the guy walks out. So I know what he's doing.

He's going to go put on his boots. Yeah. So I walk over to my friend and he goes, you know, they watched basketball every day in front there. I go, it's too fucking late now. Yeah, now it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Yeah. It's too late.

You know, I made the move already that I'm here. And then I didn't, you know, thinking back on it, you know, who knows, how do you handle the situation? Because I've been in jails my whole life, too. So, you know, now you've got to say you said, well, well, it's me. I'm not the other guy. I'm not this average guy sitting here. Right. And so he goes and puts his boots on and six guys are there.

And I think we're going to go. And then one of the guys kind of, one of his friends that was friendly with me, he was like, man, he tells his friend, just go sit there for today. And back and forth. then I ended up staying, even though I didn't want to stay anymore. Actually, I didn't want to stay. You didn't want to watch the game. No, I didn't want to watch it. But I couldn't go in a way.

So my other friend says, why did you do that? I says, actually, I didn't do it purposely. It just happened. And then I just wasn't going to back down after that because it went, look right. Right. So, you know, and I didn't give a fuck about the game. I didn't give a fuck about the chair. But I kind of was, when you think back on it, I was wrong.

Because, but I just didn't want to let people think that I'm moving for somebody. Right. The same situation, I was in the medium, and this guy sat in the other guy's spot. And he waited until the guy, like, he never said nothing. He walked in, he saw it. Like other guys knew, okay, shit, he's sitting in his spot. He didn't say anything. He waited like 45 minutes.

The guy finally got up, picked up his chair and left. So he comes up, he's like, hey, man, he's like, look, the spot you were sitting in, that's my spot. Like, I don't, he's like, yeah, well, you weren't there. He's like, I understand, but that's my spot. Like, don't sit there again, all right? All right. You know, I don't want any problem. Just don't sit there.

Guy goes, yeah, all right, man, whatever. next day puts his chair now okay well I felt to me he handled right he weren't sitting there he didn't know any better

you tell him later right didn't tell him like yours where he said no no he's trying to get you to like move right yeah like no no

now you're embarrassing right like you said now I look like a fucking punk and I can't move he should have just waited for you to move right

but guess what next day guy sat there again yeah well now he's now he's saying let's go yeah that's what he didn't say anything he just looked at him he went upstairs

he got a fucking fucking broom for the mother, came back that wall, and it was whacked, just right in the back. He had to. Well, I've seen guys get hit over the head with chairs all the time. He had to. I mean, we all used to put our chairs out in a spot. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, but you really think about it, when a guy comes in from jailhouse guy, and you're not gonna do that to him either because we've been down a long time. Say, listen, I don't care what you did. You know, what made you deserve that spot? It's not like the chairs are already in place. The chairs are in place.

And we used to put our, uh, uh, uh, a towel on their blanket and we put a cup for movie night. You know, that's different. But when there's no chair there and you're sitting in the spot and he goes, that's my spot. Yeah, it's just stupid.

It gets stupid. These are dumb shit things that happen in jail, but they're serious. I had, so I was down 11 years, 11 and a half years. And I might have told you story. I don't think I told you the story. So I get, I watch friends.

Like Friends comes on every day. So, you know, and I look forward to watching Friends. Could you imagine I like Joey and the other gas all? on the show. It's fun. Plus, Jennifer Anison's on there, Cox, and the other blonde. So it's a fun show. So they do one little thing that I always went like that, in the middle, in the introduction to the, in the jingle

to the show, right? And I do that. And I do it every time. So some guy, some guy, I don't know, red bone, they call him. He's sitting there with these big cars headphones on. And he goes, hey, I go, yeah. He goes, can you not clap your fucking hands? It hurts my ears. I go, excuse me? Now, you already made a mistake.

He wasn't kind. He said, oh, you're hurting my ears. Stop me. I go, now, what do you mean? He goes, yeah, I said, well, I said, I've been doing this for fucking three years. Now I'm getting ready to go all in three months. Yeah. He goes, I'm, I've been doing this for three years.

He goes, well, well, I don't like it. I said, oh, you don't like it? I go, okay, wait until next time. So I said, I'm going to tell you what. I said, how about this? You go fuck yourself and don't ever talk to me again. I said, and I'll do this every day for the. the rest of the time I'm here.

Next day. Like, you know, I don't know him. Redbone. Mike, you know. Come me, I want to talk to you. I want to talk to you. I want to fucking bring it and straighten it out or whatever. But that's what we do in prison.

Right. Says, come on, come on. And I'm stupid. Because I'm straight up. Well, you said it. We didn't say it. Because I'm straight up. I'm straight up.

You want to talk to me? Come on. Let's go talk. You know, what's going to happen when we talk is up to us, right? when we work it out. Walk in his cell, closes the door, and the guy, six foot eight,

stands from the door on the other side. And he pulls out an knife on this fucking long. I was telling you a little story. I'm never going home. I got nothing to go home to. He's going home to, he's going home to. He's a guy from D.C. They're actually state inmates.

D.C. prisoners, people don't know. From law and the federal. Yeah, they closed it down. Yeah. So he's a state in me. Redbone, and I ain't going home, and I, ah, uh, uh, and I went, I looked at him, and I tell the stories, fucking, it's intense when I really get into it. And I looked at him, and I said, boy, that knife's going to kill this motherfucker.

His own knife, he's going to die from his own fucking knife. That's how I fucking dealt with it. Of course, I said, dear God, forgive me, because I'm going to kill him, and I'm going home three months. Well, you know, number one, for the people that don't know, Well, for the people that don't know, that are listening to this, three months away from going home. No one supposed to ever tell somebody when you're going home

because this is what goes on. So if they think you're short, they fuck with your little bit. Yeah, they try it because they know that you don't want nothing anymore because you get your hands until you're going home. So you shouldn't tell anybody when you're going home. And I don't know that he knew that, but I was well known. Yeah, but listen, I did the book. I did a book, it's like a handbook, prison rules.

Things that do and don't do. So, and in one of the other things you guys know. Oh, you did a book? Yeah. How many books? Five books. But you're so writing. You're so fucking writer.

My last one was. He doesn't speak English well, but he can write. I'm listening to you. I know. What's my last? A mafia international. There you go. But we, we, you know, because of all these stupid little things in jail, we had this

other thing. When you go to chow for lunch, guys would put their towels or tell the guy, hey, put my towel on the bench. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Put my towel here. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, the guys are eating, nobody's touching the bench. Yeah.

Because they're afraid that, you know, they don't want the confrontation guys. Yeah. So one of my friends used to put the towel on the bench. And I used to tell my friends, you know, Lee, these are something, but it leaves with me. Lee with me. The Canada guy, he got caught with 37 tons of wheat. Yeah. Great guy.

Yeah. Anyway. Very nice guy. My back even. We're always playing jokes. So we kept taking his towel and we were moving it. And somebody would ask us, is anybody on the bench? No, I use it.

You know, because guys are asking. the plate. They don't want an issue. And my friend's going crazy. Who's touching my fucking towel? It was your own friend. You're your own friend. Yeah, it's your own friend. And we're like, I don't know. So you go over the guy in the bench, he goes, did you touch my towel?

Because he's benching on me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He goes, I didn't touch your towel. So he don't want to give us up because he told him use the bench. Yeah, yeah. So he does it again, does it again. Finally he comes over there and we put little snacks on the bench. And he says, you fucking bastards. He goes, the fuck is wrong with you.

You're going to get me in a fight. We ain't got to get in a fight. But the thing is really crazy and everybody does that. These little games in jail is really ridiculous. Like, who the fuck makes these rules that you put your towel in? It's yours.

And it's yours. You're not touching it. Yeah, they would do that in the showers. Yeah, they're doing whatever. That means I'm taking a shower. Like, there's a line and there's a fucking towel that's been there for 10 minutes. Actually, in Hillsborough, a guy did do that to me

on the second floor and I was steaming. I had my towel up there and he just went in. Right. And then he told another guy, fuck him, you know. And I'm, you know, I'm already got my hands full with trouble. I'm facing all kinds of life sentences. And I'm fucking fuming.

I talked to my friend show. How many life sentences did you face? Well, a lot. 20 what? Yeah, yeah. And so I said to my friend, Matt, that's up to you. On this side. Stand by the door.

I just stand by the door. I said, I can't let this go. And I went in. And you remember Hillsborough, they locked, doors automatically locked. Yeah. So I went in. And, you know, I hit the guy and whatever.

And, you know, what he did? He hit the button and they came up and, you know, I got locked down and whatever. But, you know, these are stupid things. Even I was thinking about like afterwards, you imagine what would I care that he went in the shower first? Yeah, now it seems stupid. Well, it's important because it's a thing where they think you're punking you. And it's hard to explain to people outside on the street. Like, what's the big deal that he did that?

Right. You know, because that's the first thing. And then, you know, and I'm like, and it was a young punky kid. He wasn't a tough guy. You say the fucking button thing. Like I remember I had a fucking sally one time. He comes in, we were sellies. Like we ended up being sellies.

He was a fucking Mexican gang memory. He's like, listen, Cox. He said, you know, you know, you know, I do this and I do that. But look, you know, sometimes I'm, if I have problems somebody, I'm like, you got to, I got to know. If they come in here, I got to be able to count on you. And I looked at him, I said, I'm going to tell you something. If they come in here hard and he goes, yeah. I said, I'm going to hit the button on my way off the fucking door.

I said I'm not right now I said I'm going to go to the guard I said you cannot count on me I will hit the button I will get the guard I'm not fucking doing nothing for you though I'm not fighting nobody I got no fucking knife and I'm not interested in being involved and he goes he was like

fucking white boy motherfucker I said I'm just letting you know you move in here that's what it is and he was like well I guess I better not have any trouble I said I mean you go exactly that's what a smart man I had a

guy in Honduras with me, Jose Montoya. We were good friends. And he got like 30 years. He used to play football, soccer. And, you know, a guy moves down, two cells down from us from Salvador, short, fat kid, nice kid, tatted up. And, you know, I'm talking to him. And one of the guys on the cell block was talking in front of his cell in the morning. He just got there. And he says to him, just kind of what you said earlier. He said in a nice way. He says, listen, please in the morning, you know, he had a strong accent, the guy. He says in the morning, can you talk somewhere else? Because he's out front of his daughter all the time.

So he says, yeah, okay, no problem. He does it again. Now the guy's talking to me, and I told Jose, you know, I didn't call him, Jose. I called Montoya. I said to Montoya, this guy's serious. He should you think? Now Montoya's a serious guy. And I say, yeah, 100%.

So the guy goes in his cell, forget his name, and he's packing his stuff. And he says, John, it was nice meeting, you're this and that. I knew it. You know? He's going to the hall. He gets a razor. He went to the hole. And he raised the fuck out of him.

And I told him, I told Montoya, I told you he's going to do something. I said, you could tell. He was going to do something. He was he was a real guy. You know, no bullshit, very quiet. He wasn't like a big mouth. And, you know, when he came over and said, hey, it was nice to meet you, brother. You know, and I said, oh, this guy's going.

Oh, shit. And he raises the fuck out of him. But, you know. Because he wouldn't shut up. He was a disrespect. He was trying to sleep. He was trying to sleep. He was right.

It's early in the morning. What are you doing? John, real quick. Like, I know bits and pieces of your story, but I mean, if you had to summarize it in 10 or 15 minutes, you know, what's the basic word about of your story? Wait, wait. He doesn't get 10, 15 minutes right here. You got like an hour and a half.

No fucking way. We go, we do one-on-one on our own. Right now, give him a little synopsis. He did. How long did he do? When I interviewed him, he got, he got, I'm going to, yeah, let's check. No fucking way. Dow.

What's the matter? Pinky. Pinky Duskador. Yeah, it just hit it. You got an hour and 54 minutes is what yours was. An hour and 50, was it an hour and 54 minutes? I mean, I can leave. You got to want to do one on one.

Go ahead, Johnny. So, Matt, I give you a quick overview in my life. So the people that think, most people think that are listening to my story, my background, that it started with the Gattis. That's not really the truth. truth, it kind of was the middle of my life. The beginning of my life is my father was involved with gangsters. He lived in Lower East Side, Manhattan, Seward Street, Rivington, and his neighbors were guys like Vito Genovese. His friends was Charlie Luciano, Lucky Luciano, his first

cousin. Plackey was also a made guy, became my father's partner, my uncle's partner, in nightclubs and card games and things like that. So I was raised around these guys, little Al Greco, who's a big name in North Jersey killer in jail, got life. These were my father's friends. So I was introduced to them as a young kid. Then later on, my baseball coach was Fat Andy Ruggiano's sons, who I still talk to Anthony Ruggiano. He does shows with me, his brother, Albert.

And their father was the boss of our neighborhood of the Gambino family. So I was raised around gangsters. Then my little girlfriend at the time's uncle and father, wise guys with the Lucchese family. Those are my other friends. Later on, the Burke family, Frankie Burke from the famous movie Goodfellas, was one of my best friends. And later on, he gets killed.

And I'm actually one of the guys that come to the house and tell this, not one of if I am the guy that comes to the house to bring the sister to Kings County Hospital in Brooklyn so we can identify the body that it's her brother. After he got shot in head five times by another mutual friend of ours, Tito, who later on he gets shot in the head 10 times in retribution for killing Frankie. This is our neighbor. So this is like a mortgage broker.

Yeah, this is like a mortgage broker. It's a lot like being a mortgage broker. So when people ask me, where are you going with my bike? I can't see me. Oh my God. Are you serious? I think they can see you.

It was blocking my fucking beautiful face. Here's the problem. He's cutting into my 10 minutes. I was going to say. No, you go ahead. I'll shut up. Do I get 10? How does this pink?

Take this is pink? I really like that thing. We needed to put a hanky in it. Oh, I'm going to get a hang in a don't match. It's fine. Now, go ahead. I'm sorry. So you killed.

Anyway. Listen, mortgage brokers and killers. Go ahead. Go ahead. That's a good time. You know, I grew up in a very violent world. Whether I liked it or not around serious gangsters, top gangsters in the world. Later on, I end up with the Gatties.

So getting there is my preparation, like people go to grammar school, to junior high school to high school. I'm raised in this life and I'm around blood violence, the gyms boxing with the Ruggianos also their father and my father's friends. So when people are surprised to hear

that I was, how did it get so close in Albanian, an immigrant family, an immigrant family from Albania, did I get so close to the mob and the Gotti family? It's not really because I was around other crews earlier in life that were the,

huge in the mob world. So, you know, when you get into this world, you have to either know somebody who'll be trusted after a while. But I was raised around this since I'm a kid, like I said. So it brought me right into the violence. I made a lot of money in the drug business and in the violent world. I became a very aggressive guy. And people, you know, when I try to talk about it, I talk about it because I want to show the downslide and downfall of this life, not the the aggressive part. The $35 million Forbes magazine articles, all that shit. It's not about

that. No. It was at the time. I mean, listen, you know, as a young guy, and I'm pulling in my driveway and it's seven blocks long, you know, and you've got a boxing ring outside and baseball cages, three homes, a lake, built-in pool. Yeah. I don't realize as a young guy, hey, I bought this property

at about 23, 24 years old. I bought 16 properties or whatever. I bought 12 properties, to be exact, I think. But in conjunction, over of years, probably 16 to 20 properties. And you just don't realize the level at you at you want more because it's not about just the money. It's about the power. It's about the style of living you have. It's about the success that you see in your mind coming from nothing that you want more and more and more. And what I try to do in our show is in, you know, we had, one time it was

called Mafia Truth and then we changed it to the elite show is to show people that your situation, a Mike situation, my situation. You may be up here, but don't worry, you're going to come down that slide because there's no way you're staying up here if you're on the street. You're going to hit that, you're going to hit bottom. And that's really what I'm going to show. What do you put on an application today? Well, when I first came home and you know this, people ask me, fill out an application for

work. And you know, my parole and everybody's asked me, I go, yeah, I did. And I says, but here's the problem. They write, have you ever been convicted of a misdemeanor? Yes. Have you been convicted of a felony? Yes. Have, do you have a driver's license?

No. What was your felony charge? Several murders. Yeah. I mean, who's hiring you? Do you have trouble with authority? Obviously, yes. You know, so you're not getting a job unless you're going to, and this is one of the things

I talk about, second chance programs for inmates, ability once you go to jail to come out and get any job, whatever that job may be. If you can qualify for that job, they should be able to give a job so you have a job. chance at life again. If you don't give us and other people like us a chance, then you're asking them to go back into a revolving door because you're not giving them that shot. And then, you know, kids were my neighbor when we grew up on Jamaica Avenue, East New York, South Jamaica, we all grew up a certain way. And I understand that it's a tougher life for us than some other people. But that doesn't mean that you've got to go into life of crime. We were just guys trying to take a

shortcut. And, you know, the problem is you look at our government the way it's situated, then I, you know, and I speak about this on a show. I don't like what the, you know, listen, look what's going on Ukraine and Russia now, right? Who knows what's true because we know we can't trust our media? We know what they've been telling us for two years during the pandemic. We know what they're telling us during BLM. Don't believe your lying eyes that you see burning buildings and please being attacked. Peaceful. It's a peaceful riot. So, you know, it's a peaceful riot. Demonstration. This is a joke. So when we see that the manipulation just of that, then I'm not sure that anybody's ever going to believe the media of what's going on in

Ukraine and Russia. You've got to question everything that's being said now because we've seen so much lying going on to us that this government has allowed us to happen with. Now, we are no different than a third world country of bullshit media. We're no different. We're not getting the real story. We don't know really, and I've seen some UFC fighters actually talk about this. we don't know what went on we do know one thing Biden was over in Ukraine before he was elected president was pocketing all kinds of money and it was a situation all of a sudden now we're in a middle of getting ourselves involved in a war and as bad as I feel for the people and the kids because you feel terrible for them it's the governments we don't trust because we don't know

what's really going on and like that and I'm going to make a correlation with the mob world it's the same thing it's all smoking mirrors and bullshit and when you buy into it, you're really a sucker. The other day, Matt, John and I had a conversation. Go ahead. I'm sorry. No, I'm not saying anything. I thought you had a question there. The other day, John and I were driving in the car and John says to me,

if I put that much energy and effort that I put into this whole lifestyle into a regular job or business, where would we be today? In other words, because we're looking at a million dollar homes and the things that, you know, like you were in construction, I don't know if you did any flipping, but you did mortgaging

and all that stuff, if we just put that kind of energy and effort into the, we call it easy money, but by the way, there is no easy money, the dope money, all that money, nothing's easy because there's a cost to all of it, the free money you got. It was a cost to all of it. At the time, it seems easy and free, but the cost is, listen, we're paying the rest of our lives for it, including yourself. I worked very hard at fraud. Yeah, yeah. It was a lot of ways, but if you put it out legit, if you bought a house, flipped it, wrote another one, flipped it. But you were very successful in the fraud business until you went to jail.

So you got caught. Right. But the thing is, the way we're helping each other now doing this, we could have helped each other back then the right way. Right. And became very successful. If you got the right guys. Like, you know, I helped guys.

Like, you know, I used Duke Mandel and Timmy Donovan earlier. These guys, I helped. They gave more kinds of money. I started them out in businesses. And they fucked me. And, you know, this is, you know, this also is the problem. You have guys that are just not nice guys. It doesn't matter what I did for a little.

living. I wasn't a beat artist. These guys are beat artists. I would help them along. You would think they'd be dedicated for me to the rest of their lives. Instead, they're trying to dig in your pocket when you're sleeping. So this is they're getting titled. They start thinking, you know, you give them, you give them a couple hundred thousand dollars and then, and they start to think that that they earned it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'll tell you a good story. I gave it to you. Yeah. Timmy Donovan's father when he was alive had an argument on me because I gave his son a couple $100,000 to buy a building. I gave him money for the parking business. And his father's argue with me. And I said to him, you know what's funny about you? I says, you're a nice guy,

but you're full of shit. You wouldn't give your own son a dollar because you didn't trust them. But it's okay for him to take my money, go right around on motorcycles inside my building, sell weed, bookmake, and do anything else to fuck me out of my money without my permission. I said, play around like it was a couple of bucks. But why didn't you give him money? If you had such good faith in your son, you never trusted your own son. So you're talking bullshit. Just be a real guy and say the way it is. But the problem is guys don't want to be honest with themselves

because, you know, being honest themselves, they've got to be truthful about their kid, what they raised. How many murders did you plead guilty to? I think I pled to six murders, conspiracies, four and two. And about 40 shootings. Yeah, that's a... Well, I mean, I don't know. No, no, the reason is...

threw that in there. I don't know why he threw it in there. You know, everybody's always curious to ask me that question anyway. I actually never asked him that question until just now, by the way. That's the first time I've asked him that question. And I got to say, though, when people ask me that question, whether it's you or somebody else, I try to be to show kids this life is bullshit by me saying, don't believe the rest of these guys. They didn't do this.

They didn't do the work because you can put anybody on here. And you've got to sit with them and be very specific. I'm always asking everybody to do. And people always try to dance around it. Well, ask a guy, can you tell me the first time you did this kind of shooting? What were you thinking? What kind of guns you used?

Where did it happen? And go to the second shooting, go to third. I'm going to tell you why. Most of them are going to stop at one or maybe two. Right. And I blast Sammy Gravano for that all the time because he tells everybody he's a perfect killer on his shows. He had a lot to say about me,

but I've confronted him a hundred times. He only shot a gun once. the second one I don't count because the second time was a 15 or 16 year old boy so that's his claim to fame being a tough guy they're full of shit

and if you weren't full of shit you'd see there and list it when you're doing your podcast and you'd say I did this I did that I did this instead he tells you he's good at murder when he really didn't he didn't do anything he wasn't shooting anybody

he was known to Sammy the bullshit I was actually growing up that was his nickname so you know nobody says that they talk about the you know the title they gave him So, you know, I always say the same thing. I can make a title for you today. You are now the new concierge of podcasting.

You're my underboss, and, you know, we could be full of shit like everybody else, you know, because it's just a bullshit. And that's why I try to positive message your kids. Don't buy your 10 of this bullshit. Get a job. Do the right. Listen, we just said it the other day. You can go to UPS, start off driving a truck or loading trucks or whatever.

And if you stay with them 10 years, watch how successful you get in stock options and everything. You don't need to do this. I say FedEx. I use the exact same thing all the time when I say FedEx. Yeah. Yeah. My family member, I won't say who he is, was on the street with me in trouble, face murder charges, beat him, and he changed his, turns his life around.

And he works for a major corporation, right, from nowhere. And he makes almost a half a million a year. So it could be done. Yeah. You know, if that's really, you know, the mindset is I didn't know any better, I guess. I was raised in this life since I'm a kid. I had some chances and, you know, you had a baseball scholarship.

Well, then I had an arm injury. So I had some chances and I, and when I, when they fell, University of Tampa, when they fell, when they fell out, I used as an excuse to continue on the street. You know, I didn't, it still didn't have to go on the street. I could have did something else, right? I could have got a job somewhere else. I didn't do that.

So what I try to tell kids is be true to yourself, right? Well, not just kids, men, anybody, woman. Be true to yourself. Don't, don't, don't give a job. up on yourself like that because you're just going to struggle the rest of your life and it's going to bring you out look how much heartache we had you know we're talking about all the thing but how much heartache did you sit with your hands in your face crying how many times you were depressed sitting in jail cells and you know everybody left you you

told the story earlier about your girl depressed i was kissing the fucking cinder blocks i woke up kissing that message has got to come across yeah i was kissing cinder blocks like deep throat and everything you know in in the joint yeah i woke up You wake up mad. Like, I thought that was someone there. I was kissing Cinderblock walls. That's not a joke. That's real.

But when I talk about the violence, too, you got to remember. So when I'm talking about the violence, it's like I'm talking about somebody else. It was a different lifetime of it. Matt, Matt's like, what the fuck is he said? Yeah, he, you didn't kiss no Cinderblocks? I mean, out of all, out of all the talent out there, this is what you, this is what you ran with this guy.

You were kissing. Did you ever kiss a Cinder Block? No. Come on. No. No. None of those dreams. Hey, Matt, everybody calls me and says either they, they love them or they call me and they tell me, what are you guys doing?

Listen, I thought when we did our interview, when you left, I thought, worst fucking interview I've ever done. It was horrible. Yeah. It, it, I totally, when you left, I was like, holy shit. I never asked them about this. Never asked them about that. I was like, fuck. And I was like, oh, this is, this is horrible.

Yeah. And then that video just kept going and going and in the comment section, they either, they was only two comments on him. I could listen to this dude forever. He's amazing. Or, bro, I just couldn't watch,

bro. I can't stand that guy. How could you stay in the room with this? Yeah, exactly. Like, how could you, it was one of the other.

But I was thinking what you just said about this is back to, you know, so we're going to put the wall up. Let's put the wall up. I'm always, I'm always asked like if you could do it. not always, but, you know, could you do it over again? You know, or do you regret? I always love the, do you regret anything?

Do I regret anything? Do I regret getting out of fucking prison at, you know, losing 13 years? Yeah. No, it was fun. Doing, yeah, yeah, oh, I loved it. I loved it. Getting out at 50 with nothing. Yeah.

Everybody's giving up on you. Oh, yeah. And rightfully, so, you're a scumbag. Right. Like, I'm doing scumbag fucking things. Right. you know like in the first couple years i was locked up i i was hated everybody everybody fucking piece of shit this guy i gave that guy money i did this right i don't want to turn my

calls this guy you know everybody it was it was everybody else's fault right and then eventually you get to that point when you start to realize now if you're lucky because i don't guys that did 20 years and still hate everybody yeah and they went out and they're bitter and they're going to die of a heart attack the truth is by the time i after a few years i started realizing no i put me here And people say that now, man, I can't believe you did all that time. Can't believe that they gave you that much time. They didn't give me that much. I gave me that much.

I put me in jail. Well, here's the problem, Matt, right? And I'm very honest too. And people ask me questions. I understand, really do understand why I shot and stabbed and batted a lot of guys. They deserved it. This is being honest. And if I had to give a list, if you've seen a list, I can write 10 names right now.

But these are other criminals. These are other guys that are well no it's not it's yeah it's not that it's they are looking for when they test the waters and they're not sure like there's 10 guys right now I can write a list that I in some ways wish I was the guy I used to be because I'd slaughtered them because I know it's full of shit guys current guys right now okay but here's the difference no you're off the list you were on the list the other day because you were snoring loud and I couldn't sleep I'm sorry so those 10 guys guys are, they really deserve to get what I used to do. And they know I'm not going to do it. So they got big mouths and they talk nonsense and they're not in the league with me when it comes to this. They all try to because of their egos and they're full of shit and whatever and they talk and talk because this is the area you can type away and all that. But the difference is, and this is what I try to tell kids that are going through what I'm going through or men that are going through what I'm going through. It ain't worth your own life to do that. Before I didn't

realize that. I was willing to give up my life for that. Now I say to myself, as much as I want to do it, I'm not hurting myself. So that's always going to be my message to everybody. And I say it all the time, you might as well look in the mirror and shoot yourself then. Because this is very easy for me to do what I used to do. I know they're full of shit, because when there was no cameras out there, they weren't doing anything. Now it was technology and cameras, they're still talking when they didn't do it back then. So this is, at the end of the day, you've got to say to yourself, life worth. Now my life's worth something. Back then, I didn't think it was worth anything for whatever reason. And I went through therapy and now my high is to help all the kids not do what I used to do.

Say, I get what you're doing because, you know, people say, man, how'd you change? I didn't change that much. I just don't react the same. I mean, I still have that same feeling to go after guys that are really fucking with me or guys that are screwing me or guys like, say, Duke or Timmy, I just brought up their names earlier, or Mike Mallon and these guys that robbed me and beat me. Every day, I think about, you know, but I won't react anymore because I know that it's just not worth my life to react to these guys and that these guys somewhere down the line of pieces of shit

and they'll get what they got coming from. You know, and I believe that really, you know. At the end of the day, they're going to pay some way, I believe, with God, with calm or whatever. And, you know, and I just look at it and I go, you know what, move forward, do the right thing, do the right thing for kids and put them in the right direction, and do the right thing for myself and family, enjoy my life.

Right. Yeah. So I can know that because he went to us so. Thanks. He's so sweet. He actually is a sweetheart and a charmer too. I tell you. He really, so let me.

Hey, he's caught into my 10 minutes. Yeah. Ten, it was fucking 30 minutes. He's got 30 minutes. What are we doing? So let me. So, so cut. Cut.

Now he's running a machine. Cut. Can you your microphone staying up just, I think at some point like 10 minutes ago? Me? You understand, John? You, you, it's in Matt's frame. My, because he touched it. Oh, no, yeah, we, he's sweet, you put it, you put it in my frame.

Is that any better? I, no. No, it's got to go this way. It's got to go this way. Right? It's got to go this way or something. Is it all good? Yeah, it's been all good.

Yeah, you can't touch the tech stuff. You see what I put up with? The guy's great. I see it's across my neck. It's good. It's across your neck I thought so No it's not

I mean I'm just saying That's what's bothering you Yeah I can't I want to look pretty Oh my God bro You're got fucking probably Hundreds of hours Yeah

Hundreds of hours of you So here's what This is a setup I don't know if you want to go there That's why I want to stop So stop I don't know if this is a good setup Did you want to ask

Does you want to be asked I want to see if you want to bring up The guns with John If you want to bring that up Or no Yeah They gave the guns to you? Yeah, yeah.

I want him to ask that, like, not specifically. He don't know. So the setup is, what's one of the things that happened out there that most people don't know about between you and junior? Does that make sense? Goddy, Jr.? Yeah, with Junior. Because that's the only thing that they'll attack you crazy.

So what? You ring up, they'll be writing on your face. They will drive you. Well, we're getting it on ours. This is for us. Don't get me wrong. This is for us. Okay.

They're balls. It's not like that. They'll just have. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but I think it's good theater for his channel. Oh, 100%. Okay. So you're going to ask him, what's one of the things that you want people to know that happened between you and John that very few people?

I was saying it was I heard that was at one time you were you were giving guns to, can you tell us about that? Okay. To hit Gotti. All right. All right. Okay, sorry. You see what I'm saying? All right.

All right. So I don't think he should ask to hit Gotti. No, okay. Just, I'll just say to the guns. So at one point, you, you, you, fuck you made this difficult. No, no, go ahead. So at one point,

so at one point you hit, or you were giving guns to John Gotti, I mean, to John Gotti Junon. Gave you some gun, gave you some guns. You didn't give you any guns, June. I got guns to him. Oh, okay, who gave me? So just say, listen,

at one time there was a, there was a situation you were giving guns. What were they for? Okay. All right. So a lot, so, So at one point, you were given guns. At what point, what was that for?

What's going on with, it has something to do with Gotti Jr.? Yeah, what happened was in the mid-90s. I want to get you in the mic. I wanted to hear that because you're so far away from the fucking mic, motherfucker. He don't kill anybody anymore. So what happened was in the mid-90s, there was a lot of, after guys were being hit back and forth,

over Paul Castellano in the mid-80s got hit and then later on in the 90s when Senior goes to prison Gotti Jr. takes over and when he takes over the family is the acting boss half of the family

from the faction of the Castellanos aren't happy about junior in leadership and Gotti Senior calling the shot from prison and you have guys like Danny Marino you have guys like Joe Watts I met Danny Marino

just for the record. Yeah. Yeah. I did. You know, white Mercedes-Benz convert. Jimmy Fall, Jimmy Brown, failure. You have these guys who are loyalists to Paul Castellano, and they don't like what happened. They don't respect Junior in the position and Nicky Carrasso and so forth

from the Brooklyn guys that start having discussions about killing Gotti Jr. And killing his uncle, John Gotti Sr., his brother, Pete, and the brother-in-law, Carmine at the time. So they discuss it. somebody comes to see me, Charles Kinnig, and he says to me, would you hit these guys? And I said, tell me what's going on.

He says, well, they want them out of the way. They want to run the family. They don't want them there. They don't want senior running, you know, the family from prison. It's over for them. I said, all right. Did you have a choice you think at that moment?

Yeah, I had a choice. Yeah, yeah. I had a choice. But I had my own problems with Garnie at the time, I'm not the father, but with the son of them, and they were talking too much, and I didn't like it. And, you know, I went through names in the past of guys. I hit around him, one of them, Johnny Gabbitt, the other one, Stevie Newell, that later on, he just passed away. He became a friend of mine, believe it or not again, and he was on my show.

My own cousin, Nikki, I shot him up, Joe Kane that was around him. We batted him. Then later on, we stabbed him up. He was around Gadi, and then we robbed a couple bookmakers around him. And we took one of his uncle's son-in-laws, and we beat him real bad on the side of Bell Park. We left him for dead. So we started attacking all their guys, and they never retributed back. And so I guess they came to me to step it up to the next thing and hit these guys.

They gave me a machine gun. They gave me a 9-millimeter. I took those guns, and I put them in a tattoo shop in Ozone Park that everybody knew of. I was a friend of ours, and we grew up with him on Jamaica, he was a childhood friend. And we put the guns in there in Kubo shop. Now, he knew the guns where they are. Obviously, they were in his safe, but he didn't know who the hit was on for.

And it was supposed to be for that. And during the negotiations, we're trying to set up where we're going to hit them. We were going to hit them in a restaurant that we were going to. And I was going to come in through the back kitchen. And I had two shooters that were going to come in from the front and to make sure nobody could run out, and I was going to do a shooting.

We have a driver. At this point, after we're talking about how we're going to set up, how we're going to do that, who's going to come, they call off the hit. And they ask for the guns back because what I was told, senior guy, that's never a good thing. Well, they agreed to, they agreed to stepping over and had a panel of guys who would run a family. And they agreed to let certain guys like Nikki Kraso step in on that panel and collect the money and see it as really the face of the Gambino family. He's a legitimate gangster and tough guy. He's been around for forever.

When they asked for the guns back, I refuse to give them back because I know the situation I'm in now, that both sides and then I'll be the guy in the middle. So I wouldn't give the guns back. And I told my guys, nobody gives his gun back until I was going to prison. I had several cases at the time. And so they're panicked that I won't give the guns back.

Unbeknownst to me at that time, they told me they actually got the guns from Gotti Jr. himself, not knowing that the shooting was going to be on him and we were going to kill him. So they had no excuse. They kept asking for the guns back. Junior was asking, where's my gun? And I'm not giving them back.

And that's why they're asking me, give him back. And I tell Charles, nobody's getting those guns. I just, nobody's getting anything. So, Junior, so how? Yeah, he gave, Junior gave them the guns to have himself whacked with it. Right. And it comes out during the trials. So when people ask me,

you know, the betrayal of the mafia. And you know what a funny thing is, these guys talk about killing me a hundred times too. So, you know, our plot actually went a little further. But when people talk about friendships in this life, there is none. Now, you guys were technically best of friends, technically, you and junior. I mean, we were good friends. I mean...

You slept in his house. Yeah, I was slept in his house. I was in his wedding, at his wedding. I was only a couple hundred people at the Halmsley Palace. He was the best man at mine, his signature. I was in his sister's wedding party. So, you know, so, yeah, we were close. When people say, we're on, I mean, I don't know how many more videos and photos and family

gatherings we need. You know, so. Go kill your best man. I'm not laughing. It's not funny, but that's funny. Well, in that life, there is no best friends. There is no, anybody who believes anything, just look at it. Don't take my word for it.

Look at history of everybody hitting each other. Yeah. You know, everybody's hitting each other all over to place. Best friends, bosses, under bosses. This is the life. It's nothing but treachery. There is no friendship. And who can hurt you the most?

It's about who can hurt you to most. And who's got the most money? How do you get it? How do you take the power? How do you take the platform? And that's what that life's about. Anybody tells you anything different. They're so full of shit.

And the people that comment that don't know, they're so naive to understand the level that we play at. Even today, when I'm out of that life, they're still bent on coming after me because they have to retract from the truth. They somehow. And, you know, there's so much more in that life that I could sit here for a year straight to talk about this stuff and the things were on.

But the thing that happens is guys come out of the woodwork like leaded it that was in prison with me in McCain. So there's a million guys that grew up with us that know the factual stuff of what went on in this life. And, you know, in Gotti's lawyer, the father's lawyer, Richie Raybach was my attorney up to about 2000. So, or anyway, until I went to prison in the 90s. the, you know, the middle of late 90s. So, you know, these are the ties we all have to each other

because of we want to keep a thumb on each other to know what everybody's doing. So they're not cooperating or whatever else it's going on. Right. Yeah. So I have a question. So like, basically like there's like a hit on you, right? Like there's guys out there that want to have you murdered. Do you, are you, am I wrong about that? Right now? In general. I mean, haven't there? Listen, when we lived that life, you know, I've been stabbed up, I've been shot, I've been batted, I've been hit by cause, I've been everything. You know, guys try to kill me, I don't know how many times, 10 times, 12 times. There were setups, guys that used to be my enemies, very serious guys.

I mention them a lot. You know, we circled the blocks a few times before we can. We circled the block. They tried to hit me. They had different schemes to try to hit me, and we discuss it. Now we laugh about it because we're out of that life. So that's just part of it. We were raised like this.

Every day is part of that. You know, it's nothing special that they're trying to hit you today. It's crazy that it sounds. That's like saying to somebody that goes and serves a tour in Iraq or Afghanistan, or do you think about it? I mean, it's part of their everyday life. They put the uniform on. It's part of it. Police officer puts his uniform on as part of it. That's why he's talking about pro-America, pro-Police, pro-USA, because they're risking themselves every day. They're out there in a good way. We risk ourselves every day whether or not, because when you're doing what I do and you hurt as many people,

shoot people and kill people, you're always going to be a target, right? And that's just the way it is. But this ain't the 80s and 90s when there's consequences to your actions before guys would be dropped constantly. Now you don't see guys getting dropped. I mean, guys can get killed still, but it's not nowhere near is dangerous. Unless you're in Chicago right now. New York is turning back into the old West again.

Not gangsters. No, no, the street kids pushing people into subways, robbing them, shooting them up. I mean, it's getting stupid out there again. Yeah, it's a different world. It's a different world. Yeah. I talk about that. The street kids from my neighbor. The gangses are tough kids. And I just hope I reach some of them so

they don't follow that street shit. Because it's getting them nowhere. If you're interested in checking out more content from John and Mike, you can go to the elite show on YouTube with Mike Dowd. Fortunately. So yeah, check

it out. And I appreciate you guys. watching the video and see you.