Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - EX CRIMINALS REVEAL ALL W_ JOHN ALITE & MIKE DOWD (FULL PODCAST AUDIO)

Episode Date: June 30, 2022

Former Mob Boss John Alite and New York's Most Corrupt Cop Mike Dowd go over their experiences working with "The Mob", what they learned, and their crazy stories behind it.

Big Herc is, I did his channel. I think he stands up and walks around the room. Yeah. He's like, I got this fucking rat in my house. He's furious. Hey, this is Matt Cox. And we're going to be doing an interview with John Elite and Mike Dow. And I've actually interviewed Mike Dowd before.

And so check this out. So how did you get on the commercial? Oh, how does that work for you? My booking agent actually saw home title lock, and he said to me, he said, hey, this home title lock, like they protect people. They monitor people against doing what you did. You want me to contact them and see if they want you to be like a spokesperson? I was like, fuck, yeah, of course I do. I said, I mean, if you want to, I'm like, I didn't think to, I don't even know how I'd get in touch with them.

And he's like, yeah, yeah, I'll look into it. And like two hours later, he goes, okay, there's a girl name, Jennifer, she's going to be sending you an email like he just he just had it all linked up she's going to she's within the next day she's going to hit you up she's got i gave her your stuff she'll contact you 20 minutes later boom email from jennifer and i'm like she's like hey can we set up a call the next day we set up a call a month later they're flying me out to oklahoma to be in a commercial hey matt can you give the people that don't know what your charges were and what you did you give them a little override i met him from a tv too you know he well i did he cut me off

I know. It's a con. What do you want to do? You want to talk about why he's here? You know, why, Matt, because he thinks he's slick because he's wearing this nice jacket today. I'm in pink today. You know, because the last time we did a show, he wore something pink and I, everybody made his comment. He's wearing pink. You all wearing a shirt. Yeah, but. Anyway, so yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry. No, go ahead. No, no, no. Because some people you can make I did a show. I did a show. I did a show. I did a show. I did a show. I mean, I hate to say it. Yeah. Yeah. I got like 120,000.

thousand views or something. And it was your first one. Well, I think it's going to be number two now. You think this was going to be bad? Because I'm here. That's true. So, yeah. So, John, you wanted to know what kind of, what is situation? Yeah, yeah. I was a, I was a mortgage broker in Tampa. And I basically was committing fraud periodically. So you actually had a job. Oh, I didn't know. I didn't know that. You didn't know, are you serious? I'm serious. I didn't know that. I'm serious. I didn't know that. Yeah, I was a mortgage. I went and I got, I was dating this chick and she became, she was a stripper. And so, of course, as soon as she graduated, as soon as she graduated, graduated, she actually did put herself through college stripping.

Okay. So she graduated with a degree in finance. She met a guy who owned a mortgage, a lender at the strip club. And he offered her a job because obviously, if you own a legitimate company and you're in a strip club, you're thinking, how can I hire these strippers? they would make great salespeople. So he hires her. Very soon afterwards, he started banging her, you know. But I'm sure it was, you know.

Before you or after you? No, no, while we were living together. But not in a relationship. No, he was married. You and her. No, I was living with her. Oh. He starts banging my girlfriend.

But I end up, but I don't know this. John, could you imagine? I don't know this. I was banging his girlfriend. What would you do? Ask if I can join in. He says, knock on the door. Hey, let me in there.

So she says to me initially, and I should have known something wrong, by the way. You know why? Because she said to me, when she first met the guy, she's like, oh my God, he owns this lending company. He's got a bunch of branches,

this and that. He flips houses. You know, he said he'd help us flip houses. And I was working construction at the time. So I go, you know, hold a whole lot. Is this, this is a, going to be the whole time? This is going to be, I thought an hour and a half. When he said it's going to be a little. Listen, guys

write me in all the time. You work construction. Wait a second. They always write me in. I says, man, when he does this, don't you want to shoot? Don't you want to shoot them? They asked me, I'm used to. Wait, wait, wait. Now we have two jobs. You did construction? Prior to being a mortgage broker. No, no.

I'm telling you how I became a mortgage broker. You're not paying attention. Yeah. I got it. I told you I was dating the chick. Right. We're living together. Right. She comes home from her job, stripping one night, says, I met this guy. He owns a lending institution.

He wants to help us flip houses. So she was pushing this agenda because I was working construction. She's saying, hey, we can start flipping houses. So she's banging him. Not yet. But when they start banging, then you fuck him because you get in his mortgage business and then you start. He's banging nails. Not fuck him that way.

I mean, yeah, yeah. No, what happens is, is I should have known something's wrong because she kept saying you should go you should be a mortgage broker you should be a mortgage broker and then one day she stopped mentioning it but by this point i want to be a mortgage broker right so i say i want to be a mortgage broker i fly up he i go meet him he says okay i'll hire you he flies me to north carolina they train me greensboro i fly down i start working at the mortgage company he immediately transfers her to sarasota so i'm in tampa she's in sarasota she has to move out he buys a a rehab that's actually a very nice house and moose her in it i still i'm naive because the thing is

this guy's like he had freckle he's a fucking ginger he got freckles he's goofy looking he's he's he's got blonde yeah but he had sole look of anybody he had green yeah he was green ginger literally when people are are making comments like he's banging her and i'm hearing overhearing this at the office i'm thinking look at me yeah yeah yeah yeah he's not fucking banging her her look at me are you out of your fucking mind he's a douchebag yeah and he's got like three fucking kids and a wife what are you talking about delusional the point is is that i start doing really well and that company gets folds it goes under and i and i at that point realize she she's fucking him right and you know i say yeah all right this is what's going on i don't believe you it's over we

end up breaking up i end up start going working for another company right for about three or four months. Then I opened my own company. But, you know, the problem is by that point, I'm already committing a little fraud. But that's what I was saying before. I thought it was justifiable for you to fuck him over thinking, you did that to you and then, but you didn't really get him. I didn't really get him. And look, ultimately, his, this is funny, his ex-wife knew something was wrong. She started hearing stuff. Right. She has a fucking private investigator follow him when he flies to Florida and pictures everything. Then she divorces him. The two of them end up getting married, having a kid. So he divorces his wife. She and I, you know, we

break up. They get married. They have another kid and they're still married to this day. So from her point of view, it's a romantic story. From my point of view, she's a whore. But both versions are very logical. I mean, you know, you are very logical. Yeah, good for her. Yeah. How many years are they together now? Oh, God, they've been together. It's got to be 20 years. 15 we have 20 almost 20 years where you save yourself with divorce actually quite right it's almost romantic in a way I hate this from her point yeah I think I see it

honestly they had a lot in common you know she played softball he was played minor league ball you know he was he was probably perfect for her so anyway I start committing I start committing a little bit of fraud here a little bit nothing okay I hate to say this go ahead because there's no little bit of fraud black or white but right I start committing fraud to get people loan. You come in. You made, you made 80,000 last year, but if you made, and you don't quite

qualify for the loan for the house you want to buy, but if you made 85,000, you could get the loan. Right. So I change your W2. I altered the document. Right. Put it in. Nobody catches it. It goes through. You get the loan. I get my commission. So that ends up blowing up. I start doing more and more and more. I got to the point where if you just walked in the door, you're getting a loan. Like you have a pulse, unless you just claim bankruptcy, I'm getting you a loan. Yeah, right. You figure out, you figure out how to do it. Very quickly, figured out every loop. And you'll get in your peace.

Well, and every time you get away with a crime, you become emboldened. Yes, of course. I'm smarter than them. Absolutely. I can do this. And then it becomes a challenge. Right. Well, that was like our lives, though, John.

Yeah. Right. I mean, every time you got away with... I mean, you did it with a pen, I did it with a gun. I mean, you know, but it's still... Yeah, but wait, wait, wait. Did you have mortgages? Did you have homes?

Yeah. Did you... Of course. How'd you get a loan? You went in with a gun? No, I went to... Back in those days, it was Greenpoint Savings. So I had the guys in there.

Yeah, yeah. So he had a guy like me. A couple of days, I'd get a million if I wanted a million and a half. I pay an extra couple of points to him. Right. Like I would have anything through for me. I had like drug dealers, guys who had like no job. Like I don't even know what you do.

You come in, but you've got decent credit. Right. You know, or maybe no credit, but you've got 20% to put down. Well, I'm going to make up the fact that you've got a job. I'm going to make up your rental history. I'm going to make up the down payment, the bank account, everything. You need him right now. You don't want me and him.

You know what we got in common, right? You don't want, I'm a New Yorker, right? Right. But my case was based out of the Middle District of Florida, Tampa. Okay, okay. So we know what it is. This is a strict district, the strictest in the country, actually. Yeah.

So this was a bad place to fuck around with fraud. That's what I'm getting that. Yeah. You should have picked another city. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I know guys in other parts of the country where they're like, I can't believe you did any jail time at all.

Or other countries, they're like, ah, you would have gotten three years. Yeah. And they would have let you do it on home confinement. Right. They consider incarceration. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Here's rough. Yeah. Here's. They don't play hammering. Yeah. So, but what,

what ended up happening was, um, eventually I end up getting caught. I get a charge. I get a slap on the wrist. I, or slap on the hand. I get, um, three years probation. But I, instead of saying, hey, you know what, fuck it, I'm going to start selling used cars. I'm the, this didn't work out. And I, I, I, so I lost my mortgage company. I actually sold it to somebody else transferred into their name. A friend of mine was a CPA. He's running it. He's paying it. He's paying. me. And then I kept committing fraud. So I open up a development company and I start making synthetic identities like fake people. So I figure out how to get social security to issue me social security numbers to people that don't exist. And I would create a fake profile. I get

secured credit cards, make the payments. And after like six months, they would have 700 credit scores. So now I've got this person who's got his own social, his own data, his own social, his own driver's license everything you created someone a fake person right and then i would have that person go and buy a house for 40 000 in ebor city you know you bore city yeah right like they're they were shitholes right right there's still shitholes but now they're expensive now that's three 400 000 for the same shit hole yeah so i'd buy a house for like 50 000 and i would record the value of the house i'd record the sale at um 200 000 right so that's a 200 000 sale and um so i did that where one buying five houses, one guy's buying six, one guy's buying four, all different people. And so the

area went from the medium price of, let's say, 75,000 up to like 250,000. And then I would refinance the house, pull out 150,000, 200,000 out of each house. So each guy gets about a million dollars. And then I make a few payments, let them go in foreclosure. Bank would take the house back and they just think, oh, we lent too much money on the house. And they never thought fraud. Right. So I walk away with the money. That went on for a couple years. I got 11.5 million. and then at some point the FBI gets involved I have a buddy that got caught in the bank and when they grabbed him he said

look I you know I don't you know he don't want to go to jail I can give you a guy who's running a huge fucking scam this was in Orlando in Tampa so he he works with a task force they come to arrest me but I have a friend who's a sheriff's deputy who comes to me and says you're going to be arrested the next couple days

so I take off on the run I go off on the run another guy on the run did you go with me like in Brazil and Cuba and Africa? Oh, no. No, bro, I'm scared. He ran around the block. Would you run?

I went to Atlanta. Oh, okay. You know, so I went to Atlanta. You saved yourself a lot of headaches because I spent two and a half years in Brazil penitentiaries. No, I mean, look, like, here's the thing. Everybody said, why didn't you leave the United States? Oh, I did.

I went to, you know, I went to, you know, I went to Italy, you know, I went to Greece, I went to to Croatia. Like, I traveled. I went to, I've traveled. I had false passports. So by that point I figured out how to get driver the DMV to issue me driver's license How to get the state department to issue me false passports I've had over 20 over over is it not over I've had about two dozen about you're better than me I got caught with six yeah six and I

Well another one was kind of like a passport so seven well so I actually only got caught with about six to when they caught me but I've had that many right so actually didn't even caught with them my girlfriend at time, as soon as I got in trouble, she fucking went straight to the bank, got the safety deposit box, went straight to the secret services. Here's six fucking passports. I didn't know anything about them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you didn't even hold out for a little bit. They're good. They're good. How about a negotiation? I hated. You're not even in trouble. Yeah, right? Yeah. So, uh, so I took off on the run, sold another like three and a half to four million, got caught in a bank one time, talked my way out, convinced him I wasn't.

him i hadn't done anything uh they let me go i was on the run for three years and then then they caught me eventually they caught me and uh i got when i went to prison i got 26 years in prison when i was in prison uh you know and and look and like literally tried not to get the 26 gave up everybody i fucking knew desperate to fucking give up everybody i know you're shy about that you're shy i'm i'm embarrassed i'm ready to cut everybody's fucking throat like at this point everybody's cut my throat. So by this point, like the first time I got in trouble, I didn't say anything. Right. I, I'm like, I'll take the, they even told me, my lawyer told me, I can get your charges dropped. You haven't been indicted yet. So we can do pretrial intervention. Just go into your

your mortgage company and bring five or six of your most egregious files from your brokers. Give them to the FBI, work with them. I'll get you so that you won't even have to get indicted. And I'm like, not doing that. Yeah, you're a tough guy. I'm not, I've seen Godfather. Yeah, tough guy. I'm going to keep my mouth. So, you know, if I'd known then, I would have shown up at the weekly meeting with a dolly and said, help me get the fucking load up. I helped the guys load it up in the back of a truck and said, look, I'm just suggesting you guys get a lawyer, do the right thing.

And I'd have driven it straight to the FBI. You should have called Duke Mandel. Do you know who that is? No. He was one of my partners, and they caught him in a little scam. Nothing's major with mortgages. Right. Then a little bit with weed, and he wired up, and, you know, against me, he couldn't get me on a wire, though.

He tried. But, you know, he was giving up everybody in his mother. So, you know, he owns a couple of places here in Tampa stuff. He owns scores. He owns a couple of nightclubs. And he got very rich off of me. And later on, I guess, all for everybody else, he didn't hold out at all. He just gave everybody up.

Well, listen, I didn't know any better. Like, I mean, to me, I thought everybody was going to, you know, be loyal. and there was a street, there was a code. Yeah, right. Yeah, well, so, yeah, so, I mean, John, so like, you guys did a little fraud. And you did, my big fraud was my Corvette. Yeah, yeah, I had, yeah, I had, they gave the keys to some guy, Vinny, and Vinny took the car, you know, and then they actually called me in. You know, the investigator was probably a retired cop, because they're all, all the investigators were retired cops.

Right, right. So you had somebody steal your Corvette? I had somebody steal my Corvette. I gave him the keys and I went away for a couple of days and I came back and oh my reporter my car stole and of course they had more questions for me than I even thought of well how did they come from your driveway how did they get there where's your second set of keys

you only have one set where's the other set you know a lot of I'm like wait a while are you questioning me I'm the police what they're questioning me I said just give me my money is like 27,000 I'm supposed to get in a check you know and boy oh boy I tell you of course Kenny gave that up You know, Kenny's the guy from the 75 documentary. I don't know if you're familiar.

Yeah, yeah. I saw it. You saw it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, the 75 documentary, Kenny was the one who gave them. Listen, he gave. So when I was, so. So turned to put the glasses on.

The connection. The connection is, the connection to this whole situation is. My audience. Listen, you got three guys in a room here. Yeah. How many years did you do? About 18. All right.

And you did? 13. 13. And I did. I got a 14. your sentence. I did 12 and a half. So we got a lot Oh, you're talking about time you actually did. I'm doing, okay. 12 and a half. It's a lot of

time you did. Yeah, I'm talking about in prison. Yeah, I thought you meant, you know, on vacation, ain't. No, no, but between the three of us, there's a lot of 40 fucking, there's a lot of time. There's a lot of time. There's a lot of time spent behind, you know, the pen here, you know, but, but the, what got us there, obviously was

what we did, you know, the things that we did. But with Kenny, when I was out on bail? I mean, I don't know if you know like, did anybody ever put a wire on against you? Yeah. They did? Yeah. And you? Yeah, plenty of guys. Oh, so, yeah, so I didn't know that about you. Yeah. You know, Kenny put the wire on

and he went down the list. He must have, he must have had a pre-determined list on who they wanted to know about. He went down the list, what about this guy? What about this guy? What about this guy? So by the time I get pinched, they know they know what I had, my mother has. They know what my mother did for fucking the last 30, fucking. it is. So you... Well, I'm going to tell you something. You know the old days in on the

causeway? Yeah. They renamed the hotel there. So we used to stay there on a regular basis. Am I playing with the glasses? Yeah, very good. Actually, matches the pink and the pink and the black and white. So we were there a couple of guys. We get a sweet, double room. We're in Tampa? In Tampa, right on the causeway. And this is one occasion. And we go out the front door, but we also have a back door that goes to the pool. You know, because I always wanted bolts, you know, I just come down with five, six guys and get the suites. So we go out. We leave the room. And I told the guy before we left, make sure you lock that door. You know, make sure you check it and you lock it. So he did. We left and I forgot something.

I said, hey, you know what, make a U-turn. I got to go back. Oh, the U-turn. We go back. The U-turn. And the key won't work for the door. So I go try it again. He goes, it won't work. I said, we went out the front door. So that bar can't be on the door. You know, you got that bar. So when you put the key in, the bar's there, it won't work. So I tell one of the guys after a while I says, go to the desk and bring the guy. So the manager comes over, he knows me

and I says, hey, the door won't open and you can see his face. And I says, my other friend, Frankie, go around the back and see if you can get in the back door. And the back door's wide open. So they were trying to wire up my room. I was going to say. And we came back and they ran out the back.

So that was just one occasion. I mean, I had so many different, you know, they had so many different investigations on me and trying to set me up with, you know, wiring up apartments, wiring up guys like Duke wiring up, you know, Duke flew into Philadelphia, actually try to wear wire on any airport, but I knew what he was doing. So, you know, those, and Tampa's very proactive, you know, when they're after you. They don't lay back.

They're proactive. Yeah, yeah. Then had another agent that came and tried to set us up on a sting, and we met with him and, you know, we foiled his thing. We knew he was an agent, so. I literally, when this chicken or husband wore a wire on me, I knew in the middle of the the conversation, I realized, oh, my God. But what made you realize it? So what was the key? Because there's always something. So this other mortgage company, I had run a bunch of loans through them.

Right. They got busted. Right. Or they got their, the F, I just knew they were being investigated by the FBI. Right. And I just refinanced this chick's house to get her like $75,000 to pay her attorney. Right. As soon as she gave him the $75,000, he said, you should turn this guy in.

You should wear a wire against this guy. So she goes to the FBI. She and her husband get a wire on and they call me up and they go, listen, can you meet us at the pizzeria down the street? You know, I was like, yeah, yeah, sure, no problem. So I go to the pizzeria and I walk in. I'm like, hey, what's up? I sit down. And it turns out there's an agent, of course, sitting next.

I don't know that. And this is funny because afterwards, y'all found this. I realized what had happened? Usually it's after, I know. Well, I'm sitting there going, I said, so what's going on? And she goes, look, the FBI came in, they seized all of our files. And they're asking questions about your, my wife at a time. They're asking questions about your wife.

And I went, well, because those are little bad loans I had done. And I went, oh, I said, fuck. And she said, so they're asking a bunch of questions like, holy shit. You didn't tell them the W-2s were fake, did you? You didn't tell them the paystubs were fake, did you? You didn't tell them. Like, I just, I'm bleh. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You fucked up. You fucked up. And halfway through, I sit there and I'm like, holy shit. And I look up. And the agent, which I found out later was their agent, has a piece of pizza. And you know how they put the napkin under the pizza? He had rolled it up and he was eating the pizza and eating the napkin. And I go, excuse me, sir, sir, hey, I go, sir, like that.

And finally, you could tell he's like trying not to look at it. And I realize, and I now realize like he was like any idiot would go. Yeah, what's up, man? I go, yo, sir, sir, sir, sir. And so they're like, what? What are you doing? What are you doing? And he looks at me, he goes, like that, I said, bro, you're eating your napkin.

And he goes, what? I go, you're eating your napkin, bro. And he goes, oh, God, I'm sorry. Thank you. Thank you. And I remember Pete, which was the guy, the husband. He's like, huh, I guess fucking, fucking mad. And she's like, and they're all relieved.

And I thought, that's weird. So that was one thing. Yeah. But then I say, I say, okay, listen. I said, here's what you do. When you talk to the FBI, just tell them that you never. actually met my ex my wife you tell them you never met Kayla you never and they go well we can't lie to the FBI and I went what what yeah he slipped I go when you can't lie to the FBI and I and I said

you've been lying the whole fucking time yeah he goes what are you talking about I said bro I just refinanced your fucking house using they didn't know that though they don't know they didn't know right right I said you're using that's happen to me I go fake W-2s and pay stubs I said you're fucking lot you're still committing you are right you are Pete goes he goes stands up and he's He says, we've never lied to the FBI. We may not have told them everything, but we've never lied. Yes, yeah. You're lying.

I remember. Exactly what happened in my fucking situation. Almost to a T. What the fuck. Who's he talking to? Like he, and I thought, oh, fuck. And I looked at Gretchen, because I wasn't really friends with her fucking husband. Like she and I, she had been my manager.

We'd worked together before. I looked at it and I went, well, fuck. I said, I hope you're getting something for me. like that and she looked at me and she fucking starts crying just tears in me and she says she goes I don't have to go to jail and she goes Matt I have

I have a daughter and I go I don't have a son yeah right I looked at and I went I said listen listen I said you know what I said tell the FBI to call me on the phone do not come by my office because when when they came to her office she had like six people working for them they all quit right right I knew my fucking 12 guys

they were gone They're already telling me not to talk to her. Listen, when you're in that position, everybody bandaged you. When my investigation started down here in Tampa, I had a parking company that was a multimillion dollar company. And I had guys like Duke Vandelle that was cooperating. Then I had 717, your Cardi brothers, they were cooperating against me. Then I had Terry Skaglione, who was one of my partners.

He was an informant. And you know what? In those days, I was known actually as a mob guy. I was later on in Cigar City magazine. Terry's grandfather was a maid guy. So when all these guys are cooperating, the FBI comes in with a sting, and they start making up phony cards

and going to parking companies of only my lots and all my places, but nobody else's. And I go, this ain't right. And I tell Terry at the time he's my partner, do not talk to this guy, don't threaten him, I'll set up a meeting. So I set up a meeting for him to meet us

at the Causeway, at the Restaurant of Causeway. Remember the restaurant on the left? I think what it was called, right before. Gators? Not Gators. What is that restaurant that was there for years? There was like a Sandy Palakant, wasn't there? It was right before those two places that were there that were popular.

Whatever the places. It was a little restaurant when you pull up. It was right on the water. Anyway, we meet there and he comes with this woman, and I get them drinking. And when he goes to the bathroom, I ask her about five, six questions. And I said, don't talk when he sat down. I asked him five or six questions. Like, what kind of call did you come in?

you get married? Where'd you meet? Do you have a dog? What's a dog's name? He couldn't answer him. But and he goes, I go, listen, I know who you are. Yeah. And he says, he goes, how do you know? I goes, you only gave cards out to my lots trying to fuck with my people only and nobody other companies. So I knew you were trying to do something to me. I says, then your cards are cheap. So if you had all the money you had, you should have spent some more money. He goes, do you need a friend? I don't need any friends. I said, I got enough friends. I said, see you later. Yeah. a good day, but I knew what you were doing because he was trying to get me to clean money for him. He said he had an organization. He said he owned nightclubs offshore and he was trying

to maneuver me in a fraud for drug running and whatever. Money was for my parking company with cash. But I had all these guys and they're all involved. They're all trying to set me up at the same time besides the agent. So, you know, later on I lose my company. But this was a regular thing. When you're on the street like this, they're going to come out you everywhere. which way. You're not going to last long. For people think that, and that's always my message in all my shows, is do the right thing with your life because it short lives if you think you're going to get away with taking all that money. Because 99.9% of people are going to get caught. And guys are going to give you up because their life's going to come before yours and

their families. And if you think any different, it's naive. And you learn the hard way. So what happened with me was I was out on bail. Now, we're going to get to the Newt story, but this is, the Newt Gingrich thing. But I was out. on bail and Kenny, I don't know, we're partners, right? You know, you want that one guy, you know? So I'm like trying to make a decision, do I run, do I not? I go to, I go to Astoria Manor. I meet the owner, Astoria Manor, who I'm good friends with him.

I've become a friend to him through Joey and Joey, my friend Bega Donuts, was good with them. So I became friends with him, and he says to me, this is the shrimp boat in Nicaragua gig. I'm going to, I'm going to be a shrimp boat captain in Nicaragua. So I mentioned that the Gettie, I'm not interested in my, I got my pension. I'm going to try to just maybe get it. Wasn't Adam Sandler selling shrimps or something? What's this?

One of those comedies. You're thinking, the guy, the idiot that stands at the bus stop. Yeah, yeah. Forrest Gump. So they're going to make me Farrs Gump. And I don't care. I don't want to go to prison to life, you know. Who wants to?

There's a resemblance. So I'm running. Your turn with the glasses So I'm running I go on the I'm gonna run I don't have any fucking You guys are great with passports

I don't have anything But I'm gonna run anyway Okay But I have to get the money So while I'm out on bail I don't know Kenny's already cooperating Yeah

I don't know So Kenny what do you want to do You want to go No no I'm good I'm good Maybe I get five years And do this I don't want to do any time But you know I'm not giving up my pension

I can't run and keep his Three-quarters disability pension That I got him for the rest of his life He can't keep so I don't know so he says he calls me he says you want to go fishing so what the fucks you want to go fishing for I got what I want to go fishing I got bills to pay I got three four houses with mortgages I got no job I got shit's going on bed he wants to go fishing because he's got a pension I figure he meets me at my one of my houses we sit down we get in the car he opens the window can he had hair like you perfect you know

and you and almost me so yeah so and he never opened the window as fucking life because it would blow his hair. So he gets in the car, he adjusts the seat. Now, why do you adjust the seat? Put the wire? He put the fucking transponder under the fucking seat of the car. I don't know this, like I'm out later on. And he's wearing a fucking wire. That's why he opened the window. He thinks, well, they think they get a better transmission with the wire because the window's open. He gets in the car, he's in the car. 15, 20 seconds, he starts telling me about this fishing trip

were going on. I'm yelling out of, what the fuck, fishing? I don't want to go fishing. I got no money. You want to go fishing? He goes, no, no, no. Remember we were talking about the shrimp? He didn't want to say, he didn't want to be the one

to say the words. It had to come from me. Otherwise, it would have been something that he instigating. I said, oh, you mean the shrimp boat captain in Nicaragua? He goes, yeah! He like, he jumps up and down. Like your friend there going, no, don't.

The FBI, the FBI, we never lied. So now we're in the car, right? And we're driving, and I go one block and there's somebody sitting there. I go, someone's in that car. Long story short, it was the agent. I was shaking the car. And they cut this out of the, yeah,

they cut this out of the documentary. It was in the original, one of the originals. He's in the car holding off the Delilah because I'm shaking the fucking, it's a burgundy pathfinder. We're blacked out. You can't see anything. He's in the back, going back and forth,

tossing all around in the car. He's saying, I'm going to have to roll in the street with this fucking guy. I got no guns. He knows that's what he can't shoot me. He knows I got no guns. So I go, Kenny, the car, we got to check the car. Kenny's like, well, what's the difference if someone's in there or not? I went, you motherfucker, are you serious?

I mean, someone might be following us, and you don't want to know? What's the difference if they're following us or not? So we get in the car, we drive around, I see another car. I go, another one. Guys, reading the newspaper. You're reading the newspaper on a block by my house. Two fat detectives. Come on, that's stupid.

So now we're driving, and I go to him. So he starts going down the list. I'm like, this isn't right. This isn't right. Can I mean, we're going, this guy, this guy. Remember we did this? Remember we did that? Remember battered? Remember the car? Remember the money? Remember the fucking heroin?

All this shit. Gordo, Eddie, all these fucking cop, this cop, that cop. He's mentioned all these names. And finally, I go to him, what about the cash in your refrigerator that they missed? Don't talk about my money. talk about my cash. I'm like, oh, we can only talk about my money. In my case, he wants to know, he's asking me if I got money in the Cayman Islands. Like, I got bank. You know, like I got I got 100,000 cash laying around. You might have found out. Well, you might have been, you might have been. I used to live in the Cayman, too, when I was on a run. But this, but don't talk about

my, don't talk about my fucking money in my freezer. But can we talk about mine? Right. Right. He goes, you know what his answer to him? He was good answer. I gave some good answer. I will give him credit. He goes, I know about my stuff. I just want to know we're on the same page with your stuff. It was a good answer, you know, like, because if they ask me about Mike this and Mike that, I want to be on the same page with you with my answer. So in a fucking cock sucker, I had a good enough answer to get him through that, you know. And so you understand, I understand when you start telling me, I didn't lie to the FBI, but he didn't tell the truth. He didn't tell everything just like Kenny he didn't tell him that there was 15 20,000 cash in his

fridge and now he was hiding it from them and he didn't want to blow his fucking deal that's why they get scared because they say to you right up right yeah don't lie don't lie we catch you lying like I know I know a bunch of guys that were in prison that like they just lied about what like and then they'll take all your information they'll use your information and then they're looking for any reason at all to try and fuck you out of correct so that's what he was scared of And that's what that guy and that girl, they were afraid of because they didn't admit that their home was illegitimately again, obviously. Oh, well, they had a ton of them.

Well, you know, it's like anything else. They're naive to the system. You know, when they're trying to manipulate a system, and once that ball starts rolling, it ain't going away. We all know that. And, you know, I missed one of the guys before, actually, when my car stuff was going on, Timmy Donovan. He's another guy that wanted to pretend like he was a gang.

He was friends with me. kid, he ends up testifying against me. He got the agents involved in setting up stings against us. And then he testified in other trials for guys and against guys. And, you know, he's been informed for a while. But he was one of these guys that was maneuvering on the street. And when he gets jammed up, he thinks he can back up and just give everybody up. And then they find out the hard way that, you know, you're going to lie.

You're going to be fucked too. But, you know, he went forward and test. fight against me and some other guys and he ends up getting out from under it and he ran out of Tampa. But once this system starts on you and you're doing something, whether you're a gangster, whether you're a mortgage fraud, whether you're an ex-cop or, you know, people that are out on the street don't understand. When they put an investigation like on, you're done. You're done. When they know that you're the guy and they're going to target you, they're going to, they have the resources. This is America. Yeah. And you're not beating them. Yeah. I always, I've mentioned this a couple

times is that guys have uh like in the when i did i did this show concrete right um you did you yeah i did concrete yeah yeah he's an interesting guy yeah yeah so i did concrete and like i got a ton of people that are reached were reaching out to me you know they track me through instagram and facebook and messengers start to be like hey bro can i talk to you yeah i go you know like like i'll help you commit your fraud again like can you coach me on how to do it and i'll walk in the bank and all this. And I'm always like, bro, I'm not going back to fucking prison. And, you know, no, bro, I already do credit card fraud, but I'm not at your level.

I'm like, I'm not interested, bro. I'm just happy to be able to turn the fucking TV. Yeah, yeah. My own, my own, my own channel change it. I had one guy that was communicating with me, right, from New York. Right. Hey, man, I've been in trouble before. I know, like, never, never asked me anything.

Just like, hey, just wanted to reach out and say, if you ever need anything like I'm here for, If you ever come to fucking New York, like I haven't watched your shit a bunch of time. I watch you on a couple podcasts. You're a pretty cool guy. I like you. Like how you're honest. Just real cool.

But he'd heard me talk about how guys keep reaching out to me. Asked me to help them commit fraud. Right. So he didn't say anything. So he never mentioned it. This went on for six months. One day he says, hey,

my girlfriend's in Tampa. I'm flying down there. I've never heard about the girlfriend. But I was like, I was wondering if you wouldn't mind grabbing some Starbucks coffee. You know you like coffee I said uh yeah all right yeah so he flies down we've all met people yeah yeah yeah yeah so media we meet people yeah whatever i mean i got i'm not scared you scared no there's a starbucks next to the fucking well it's good for your business when you're networking

and whatever yeah and i've got to go there there's it's right next to the art business i'm talking about yeah it's right next to the art the art place right yeah yeah no problem so i go and he he comes and we have stuff we drink some coffee and i sit down and we're two minutes in the conversation and he's like yeah i own a uh he owned a fucking uh in manhattan he owns a hair salon he's like i've owned it my dad owned it we have a long lease we have this then my dad died i this so he goes on and on right and i'm like okay cool he said yeah you know i can the lease is coming up and this and this and i don't want him stay in manhattan anymore i'd like to get rid of it like to come down here he is you know but the problem is you know money and he's like right now i got

this much money i forget what it was a few hundred thousand right where i can do this this and so I was like oh okay and he was like what um but if I could come if I could get like four like three four hundred thousand more I'd come down with a hair with half a million I could get a place I could do this I could do that I'm like right he said so want to let you know you know I told you I was in jail right I didn't give nobody up I'm like okay I'm thinking you did three years in a fucking state prison or a state fucking medium security yeah it wasn't that okay but he's like I didn't give anybody and plus the kind of people he couldn't give up the kind of people

you know what I'm saying and they were family members and shit like you're not giving up your mom. Yeah. You know, so it's like, okay, okay. I'm like, right. He's like, so I want you to know I'm a solid guy. I'm like, okay. Yeah.

And he goes, like, if you could help me, he's like, I'll go in the fucking bank. I'll do everything that you don't have to be on film. And I'm like, I go. So I let him make his pitch. Right, right. And I look at him. I went, okay, okay. I said, first of all, I said, you don't have the skill set to figure this out.

Secondly, because he wanted me to spend a week with me and have me teach him. right I said no for I guess so I'd have to be involved that's cool bro like I'll split everything with you oh I said I understand I said I appreciate that I said so if I was willing to teach you everything that I know get you up to a point where you could do it yourself or if I was willing to set the whole thing up and you just your crash test on me you walk in the bank you come out he's right right I said that the fuck do I need you for yeah right I said why would I split anything with why would I get a sec a coat of that can turn on me no I wouldn't do that bro I said here's the thing I said you don't have

to you'll fuck up along the way your life you'll tell somebody you'll get caught i said and you don't have to tell anybody you've already got me indicted right your cell phone has text messages you now flew down here they have they have the um i said they have satellite images of you're making yeah your calls i said i'm in here i said i'm in your phone global positioning we're both here today we're both texting yeah we're done yeah i said i don't ever have to say anything i said do you know how hard it is for them to indict me mr cox and this guy were in the same place at the same time this guy two months later got a million dollars and walked away right and we caught him four months later when he told his girlfriend I said so they're going to

I said even if you said he had nothing to do with it I said they're going to say that to the grand jury I'm getting indicted doesn't matter when I go to trial because I wouldn't testify you at trial it doesn't matter I can't get on the stand because they're going to say mr. Cox how many times you've been in prison how many of this I said I'm done right so I said they'll get three guys from the fucking jail yeah say that I was involved in scores they'll stand up the jury's like he's been indicted he won't get the fucking stand he's all this we can see the communications we can see the guy fly down these three guys say he did it done mr cocker he'll probably just get probation i said and the judge will give me 30 fucking years and i'll never

see the light of day again i said and you don't have to right right i said that's the position i'm in i said so i appreciate you coming down and i'm so sorry that you had to fly down here to hear this i could have told you on a fucking phone call i got up and i got my car and i left yeah Yeah. Because I'm done. Yeah. If the, if the DEA came to me right now and said, we just indicted you on a 10 kilo conspiracy,

I've never seen cocaine in my life. You know what I'd say? Can I get a deal? I mean, can work with that. Yeah, right. I'm done. I know. I know I can do it.

Right. Nothing you can do. You got it. I'm like, I already know you got me. Can I get three years? Yeah. Can you put me here so that my, so my girlfriend could go visit me while she hangs out.

While she hangs out. You know, I mean. Whilst we hope. Right. Right. For the six months. that she stays on the phone until she finally gets tired of me

and put money on my book. I love you. I love you. Can you please put money on my books? God, I feel bad. I was felt bad for those guys on the phone. Like Saturday morning. Where the fuck were you last night?

Yeah. I was talking about this right. You know what I joke about everybody on Friday night? Everybody, after we go through count, they run for the phone. And especially back in the old days of McKin and some because you had late night. Yeah, yeah.

So they run for the phones. And I would tell like a young guy that was in the joint. Beginning stages. It's beginning stages. Let them run. That line's going to dissipate in a minute. Nobody's answer.

Listen, their families all do the same thing. Yeah. I went to sleep. The baby was sleeping. I turned the ring of raw, blah, blah, blah. And they know everybody knows three quarters or nine-tenths of a bullshit. Right. So the next morning, they wake up at the crack at the door.

And they call the house like he said and they start yelling. Where were you? I know you are out. And it is what is. Listen, you can't blame them. They ain't going to stop their lives while everybody's in jail. So, you know, they're around for the good times. They go for the ride.

As soon as the ride ends, everybody's skirting out on you or testifying against you, just the way it works. I showed up at Mariana. This makes me flannel. I show up at Mariana. Now, I've been in New York for two years, right? I get shipped to Mariana. And I meet this guy.

His name is Stanislopoulos, whatever. Nice kid from New York. He's funny because he had a flat-ass, and he was a hairy Greek guy. So he had hair from here to the down to his feet. He looked, so he could be naked. he looked like he had a cover on. Anyway, so he says to, he says he got, they broke him in prison. They said to him. And I'm not going to say that exactly what they said. Just picture right now,

she's taking a massive dick right now and you're sitting here in prison worried about it. Just hold on. It's happening right now. You need to picture that happening right now because for the next 18 years sentence he got, you know, you got to remember, you're done. You're not, you're not, you're not home, you're not hitting it. It's getting taken care of without you. He said, I wanted to, this is him, I wanted to kill this guy that he told me that this woman I love, that I got 18 years and she's going to hang on by me. He said, I wanted to kill him, but the guy was too big, so I couldn't do anything to him. He said, I sat in and thought about it. He says, for about two, three weeks. He said, then I realized nothing I can tell.

You know, I was in Hillsborough, right? I'm sitting in a block. Guy's about 6-6, 6. He comes back, and he took a three-year plea. Just what you said, three, and he was facing, I think, five or six. He takes three-year play. Another guy goes, and we told him to play this other guy. He goes and he blows trial, he gets 27 years.

So he's crying, right? Comes back, you know, can't blame the guy, right? He's crying, it's normal. They're human. Gangsters are human? Oh, yeah. And I cried like a small child. Yeah, and I've seen the other guy, and he starts telling him, oh, man, stop being a punk, man, take it on the chin.

So the other guy says, I should have cooperated. Now he says it, straight out, everybody's sitting there. So he goes, what do you say, man, I'm a soldier? He said, don't talk like that. And then he says to him, oh, shit, you're a soldier. You got three years. It's easy to be a soldier at three years. He goes, I'm 40 years old.

I got 27 years. My life's over now. Yeah. So, you know, and it's funny is because you said it, And for the naive kids that are out there, the guy that's going to get 30 years, 27 years, 35 years, and you've got this dummy talking about three years, can't do three years. You know, three years, of course, you're going to be a soldier. Talk that shit when you're facing that 30 years.

Because, you know, they all talk that. And then until that time comes. And then that time comes, and they're seeing everybody turning on them. And they're getting 30 and all their friends are giving them up. And, you know, the usual, everybody's saving themselves and they're giving you up. Then the reality comes in. What do I do now? Because the reality is, guys are going to give you up.

It comes to all of us at some point. Everybody gave me up. I just named another guy, Mike Mallon. I can name them all. This is just the Tampa guys that were giving me up. You know, I had dozens of guys coming in, including a guard from a prison that tried to set me up on a telephone that was work orders.

So, you know, you're going to get everybody and their mother running in to try to save themselves and go against you. That's just the way it is. And the guys that do stand, you said it early a little bit, and you stop short. Guys that talk, some of them are never often to talk. There is no deal for them because they don't know anything because of maybe it's a bad crime.

They killed a kid or killed a woman or something, so they're not going to offer them anything. Or they're not big enough for them to ask them for anything. So those are the guys that, you know, so when people say the jails are full of guys, but three quarters of nine-tenths of them or 99% of them would talk or are talking. If they had someone to give up. up. Right. Yeah. And guys really don't,

oh, that ain't true. Yeah, it is true. If you know anybody in this life, it's true. Every, and I said it over and over you know, you talk about mob because I was involved in a mob. Every mom. Every boss and every crew was ratted. Everyone. So, John, another thing, and the guys that have it ratted,

we're working with the FBI many of them. For years. Is this true? Yeah, of course. I mean, this is what you've said, you've come to know. Yeah. Right? I mean, you've heard about some of the stories, oh, mom, boss, so and so. Oh, he'll give the information. to the FBI for years.

I used to so he could run his own crew without problem. Well, you know, this was Whitey Bulger in Boston. Right. Right. This was Joe Messina when he got Cody War of Wire and his whole crew, captains down were all talking. Chapo and Mayo. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I don't know about Chapo. What about him? Chapo and Meyer were giving information to the, to the DEA in Mexico for like a decade on their, on the other cartels, the rivals, yeah. On their rival.

I've gotten that. You watch The Godfather? It's a movie, right? It's a fantasy. It's a movie. Everybody loves it. But the part they leave out is every outfit is working with law enforcement on the street giving up the other outfit. They're dropping dimes on them.

So Prohibition, if you watch it, this is what went on. So they could catch their load. So what is that? Is that considered a rat? It's not a rat. You know, it just depends on what. So this dumb word, what people use is ridiculous. Yeah.

Yeah. It's a, what was the guy? Big Herk? Yeah. Big Herk is, I did his channel. Oh, did you? Oh, I don't, bro.

Are you serious? Oh, I know when you, I haven't because what you said, right? Yeah, in the middle, like this guy I fucking contact. Hey, by the way, such and such, you know, I'm going to be in L.A. I don't know if you want me. Absolutely, yeah. I said, do you need to, you want to talk to me or anything? No, I know your story.

I know that, okay, cool. You know, it's my story. Right. I get there. He comes in. They sit down. We start talking. And he's like, yeah, yeah, this and that.

And I should have known. When I started telling my story, I said, yeah, yeah. I said, so they caught my buddy, who was actually my best friend. Right. The second time, like the one people wore a wire, and he's like, oh, man. I was like, yeah, well, anyway, they did what they did. It's fine. They got kids.

That's fine. And he kind of looked at me. I keep going. Then I get to where my buddy got caught in Orlando and told on me. And I said, he is, he is, fuck, your best fucking friend. And I went, yeah, well, he's got a daughter. I said, you know, he did what he did, whatever. And he's like.

And you see it in his face and I'm starting to realize. I think I saw this for me. Yeah, when you, yeah, yeah, you did see. I talked about this, yeah. I remember. I'm looking at him thinking, I remember it. I started thinking, I don't think he does know my story. And then so as when I get to the point where then they give me.

But then you're just straight outside. Oh, yeah, 26 years. Oh, I knew because by that point, I'm ready for the fucking shock value. Oh, yeah. Then the boom, I said, yeah, they give me fucking. I said, you know, I said, you know, and they give me 26 years. And, and he's like, 26 years. You can see it in his face.

And I went, oh, yeah. I said, bro. I said, oh, and trust me. I said, I said, like, my lawyer told me to cooperate. I said, oh, like that. Yeah, yeah. I said, oh, no, no. I fucking tried.

I fucking was ready to cut everybody's throat. Right. And he was like, now I realize, oh, you don't know. You don't know my story. I start, bam, bam. Here's what you don't see. The card filled up. So he had to cut the, they cut the card and they cut the thing.

He stands up and walks around the room. Yeah. He's like, I got this fucking rat in my house. He's furious. He's furious. And I realize, like, whole, like, this guy's huge. Yeah. His cameraman, who's also, he told me, they'd both been in the fucking in, in the pen.

Right. He's done state time. He's fucking covered in tattoo. And I'm looking at him thinking, I'm in a hotel room with these two fucking maniacs. In the middle of COVID, the place is empty. Like, this could go bad for me. Yes, this could go bad. So instead of, I, I start arguing back.

Yeah. But instead of really going in hard, like being a real dick, like, because I've had these conversations where I've just tried to, where the guy ends up just looking like I just make you annihilate him you're an idiot yeah like just telling him you're a fucking you know but I realize I got nobody here you got no backup right now you got no one can call 911 for you yeah so but I start arguing with him but what his whole thing was it was like it was like so no you would never cooperate like no no no and I'm sitting there all I can think of is I've heard this a thousand times yeah yeah so you're you're yeah exactly I've heard just that so you you realize that you're fucking you're

next to a neighbor is running a child sex right right you know you know it's good like in this I've had this conversation where they're always like oh I fucking take care of it myself really so because he's a pedophile you'd go kill him right right yeah yeah there's a list in every fucking state

how many pedophiles have you killed that's right none yeah really have you gone around oh they all talk bullshit they all I say this all the time about the mob I said there's guys that cooperate all over the place bosses now I'm not talking about underlings why don't you start there and then maybe somebody will believe you're bullshit. How come nobody's hitting any of these bosses all these years? So, you know,

they talk shit, but they don't even own a gun, three cores of these guys. That's why I make fun of them. I just say, oh, fuck him. No, the reality of it is the reality. I had good friends of mine that grew up with me. I get it why they cooperated against me. Just what you said. I get it. I'm not going to go before their family. And if anybody thinks any different, they're full of shit. Or they're dumb and naive. How many people did you, and this is a question I'm asking, both to you, because, you know, how many people, did you, did you call up anybody or did you inform anybody? Listen, I'm going down, get on my back, because I'm going down anyway. Did you? When I was in the pen. Do you know what I'm talking about, right? Like, I call up friends of mine

and said, listen, they were, they already got indicted, but they didn't, they weren't me. They weren't the front page in the daily news. There were nobody's in the case. When I took off on the run, before I left, I went to, I had dinner. I had dinner. and I invited liberals like eight or nine people my brokers and I told them all I said look I'm going on the run I'm taking off I'm like if you guys probably if you guys get indicted or get talked to by the FBI like tell on me right everybody tell on me tell them you didn't know anything it was me it was me like just just fucking like oh I'm not gonna do oh yeah how many guys gonna do that every one of them could sign an agreement right they were driving what I was going to say is when I'm in the pen I'm getting phone call after phone call and message of the message this guy's rat and that guy's rat and I'm looking at the You had a phone? You had a fucking smuggle phones

You know, we're in Brazil Oh, I'm waiting, where the fuck? What prison were you Are you having about you? There's no No, no. Okay. And so some of the guys, you know, we did the movie about Klaus and you know, we discussed this. What movie? And we're doing a series called Nordic Narko's about Klaus's life.

Is it out? Brazil and it'll be out next month. Okay. Yeah. But so I'm going to promote a little. Klaus will promote you. Yeah. So actually I'm doing a radio show tomorrow in Denmark, I think 4 o'clock, so about the show and about murder and things like that. But when these guys are all rolling, one after another, I look at my friend, I go, this ain't no surprise.

I mean, you know, I've been in the street my whole life. I said, so the thing is when you start hearing about the bosses all going against you, and when you hear about the boss's guys and captains, now you're saying to yourself, you've got to laugh and say, they're so full of shit all this tough talk they all got and they all got an excuse why they're meeting the FBI why they're sitting down why they're only giving a little information

why they do this is nonsense talk you know as well as I do all these guys are talking all of them are either doing it undercover snitches or their informants or whatever they're doing so when people think when I was sitting there and think that they were going to do anything different I'd be a fool to believe they're not going to talk so when you talk to these guys they know what it is

they know what all these guys are talking they know exactly what it is so you saw all the stand-up guys that the stand-up guys like you went to the meeting with eight guys right yeah I said listen I got a problem I'm leaving cover your ass

no I'm a gangster I'm not gonna do it yeah these guys are pen gang with the pen right yeah yeah listen nobody's killing each other in a fucking normally normally I mean that's not they're not killing anybody in the mob

even this ain't 40 years ago with the myth of the mob you know they were all trying to live for 40 years ago, 30 years ago. This doesn't exist anymore. You had a handful of killings within the mafia in the last 20 years. Handful. You know, it's over.

With the technology, with the sentences. You can't win away with anything today. They're making each other and their underwear. The guys are wearing wires during the ceremony. It's one of two we might have hit her at. Yeah. Come on. It's done. What is the, uh, Joey Marlino? Skinny Joe.

I was a Philly guy. I was locked up. Yeah, I was locked up with him. How was he? nice guy. I mean, I don't know. You don't know either? I mean, I had lunch at his table two or three times. He had no, like in Coleman. I'm like guys are coming up to me like, Cox, how much time you got? I'm like, I got 26 years. I'm like, but somebody could fuck up and tell me where there's a body. I'll be out of here tomorrow. And they go, oh, that's how it is. I go, that's exactly how it is. Like, I'm not here to make friends. Like, I was no qual. And then when I actually

got my sentence reduced and people, everybody knew. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was 10 times as bad. Oh, yeah, I guess I found that way to body. Yeah, I'm an idiot. Yeah, I'm not shy about it. Like, I'm leaving. Guys are like, damn, bro. Like, they're like, yeah, they're like, shit, man, you ain't. So I guess you ain't the guy to fucking do nothing with it.

I'm like, bro, you better hope they talk to you before they talk to me. I'm telling them in the car on the way there. And they're like, God, damn, God. Like, yeah, that's how it is. And, you know, just joking around and, you know, walk away. And, but the point is is that Marlino is having. lunch with me on a couple of occasions. Yeah.

And Tommy's there. And Tommy, when we go to sit, like, Marlino's coming over to bring his trade. He's like, listen, do not fucking say a thing about cooperation. Do not, if like he doesn't have any clue, he has no. And he sits down and eats with me and I fucking say a thing to him. Tommy's so flipped fucking out over it. Yeah, yeah. Like, he's like, don't say a fucking, if he fucking knew that you did.

And Marlino obviously has an issue with it. But he also got what he get a couple of years. Yeah. You know? Three years? Two years I think I got it. Yeah, yeah, but I mean. A gambling beef or something?

How long did the time you get on that? Six months? Oh, God. He got, yeah, I think he got like six months. And listen, you'd have fought up. You could have fucking thought they gave him 10 years. Oh, yeah. No question.

No question. He bitched and moan the entire. He fucking hustled and bitched and moan the whole time. I was like, what are you doing? He was like, I can't believe they give me this much time. I can't believe that. I'm like, are you? You spent more time.

a shit. He spent more time taking a shit. I stood in lines longer than you talking about. Like, I need to get halfway house. You got to call, like, he's bribing people, go talk to the fucking counselor, go this, go that. I'm like, what are you doing, bro? It's six months. It's a joke. You're going to get halfway

house. Calm down. You'll get a few months. Yeah. Fucking, it's incredible. Fuck. Yeah. Honestly, like, he was one of the guys putting money on your books. He always had food. He's always like, you know, I, do you need anything? and you know he did the whole so he did he did a lot of bribe work there too yeah but i'm saying he was

a very good like good to me when we were in prison so he was cool yeah it was good to you yeah the problem with him is you know he's he's he's so hyper he has to be doing something all the time he can't calm down uh he's constantly a little unstable yeah we yeah we found a little bit of i don't want to get into that you know but but anyway so you guys had dinner lunch with joey yeah well they ate all they ate all the time what they call him skinny joey i mean is that is that his nickname yeah yeah i don't know No, no. But they had, they had lunch all the time. But I'm saying it's comical because I would go and sit at his table. He fucking just, you know, hey, what's, how are you doing? I remember sitting at a table. I was telling you the other day, we're in Mariana. No, no, McKeon. And a friend of mine, Scott, Scott Ogden comes, sits down. Scott is spatial on awareness. He's not aware of spatialness. So he would be like eight guys would be watching TV. And he put his back to eight guys, you know. And like, They'd be sitting right here

So they couldn't see the TV in front of them And, you know, everybody in prison They're trying to be polite They don't want to be, hey, dude, move your fucking ass You know what I'm saying? So, oh, they'd be looking around And like, they'd be going, hey, they'd be go, hey, they'd be And over, come on my, I run over and grab Scott He goes, why? I go, can I come back? I want to talk to you.

He goes, what? I go, can you stand over here? There's eight guys behind you're trying to watch the fucking name and you're standing in front of them. So he sits down at lunch with us one day And he sat with me quite often, but there's another guy at the table who's just straight of a convict all his life. This guy's a convict all

his life. We're inmates. This guy's a convict. He's done state he's done everything in his life. This his whole life. This is his whole life. This is what he's done. Scott sits down. And he goes, takes up a fucking tissue and blows his nose at the table. The guy gets up and says, you dirty motherfucker.

Don't you ever do that in front of me again. I'm like, Scott, what are he? I'm trying to grab him. Don't do that. You know, and it was a hanker. It was a hanker like this big. But I told you the other day, a guy did it at the child hall, right? I wasn't sitting there.

I was in another table. And I didn't know the day before the guy warned him. He passed gas. The next day, or two days, whatever it was, a week I don't, because I wasn't at the table. I'm sitting, I missed it. What prison was this at?

What prison was this at? McCain. Oh, okay. Oh, yeah. And, uh, the dream. With Lee was with me. Lee? So, uh, the guy must have passed gas again. The guy just walked up and fucking.

hit him a shot and beat him all over a shower, which is a bad place to beat somebody. You don't want to fight in a chapel. He's inciting a riot charges and all that. But guys don't understand prison. There's a lot of things. Yeah, there's another time I was in Allenwood, and the guy has, you know,

they all put their chairs in front for the TV and whatever, you know, you know, the routine. Somebody sat in his spot. So, no, I came in. I came in and there was no chair, and I put my chair there. And the guy taps me on the shoulder and he says, you know, I sit here every week.

So, you know, You're looking at them now. It's too late now. I'm there. Yeah. And I says, yeah, well, you know, there was no chair here. Yeah, but we've been sitting here for a year. Yeah, yeah.

And in a way, because we know jail, he's got a point. Yeah. You know, but it's too late because I'm sitting. And now I'm here. So you can't let him punk in. Yeah, right, right. Exactly. Even though he doesn't think, maybe he's not thinking like that.

He's trying to think like. That we're okay with each other. Yeah. No. So now I'm not moving. I go, well, I don't know what you do every week, but I'm here. So. Now my friend comes in from the door and he's looking, he sees something's up.

And he looks at me and the guy walks out. So I know what he's doing. He's going to go put on his boots. Yeah. So I walk over to my friend and he goes, you know, they watch basketball every day in front there. I go, it's too fucking late now. Yeah, now it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.

Yeah. It's too late. You know, I made the move already that I'm here and that I didn't move, you know. Thinking back on it, you know, who knows how do you handle the situation? Because I've been in jails my whole life too. So, you know, now you've got to say, you said, well, it's me. I'm not the other guy. I'm not this average guy sitting here.

Right. And so he goes in, puts his boots on, and six guys are there. And I think we're going to go. And then one of the guys kind of, one of his friends that was friendly with me, he was like, man, he tells his friend, just go sit there for today. And back and forth, then I end up staying, even though I didn't want to stay anymore. Actually, I didn't want to stay. You didn't want to watch the game.

No, I didn't want to watch you guys. But I couldn't go in a way. So my other friend says, why did you do that i says actually i didn't do it purposely it just happened and then i just wasn't going to back down after it because it went look right right so you know and i didn't give a fuck about the game i didn't give a fuck about the chair but i kind of was when you think back on it i was wrong because but i just didn't want to let people think that i'm moving for somebody right and it's the same situation i was in the medium and this guy sat another guy's spot

and he waited until the guy like he never said nothing he walked in he saw it like other guys knew okay shit he's sitting in his spot he didn't say anything he waited like 45 minutes the guy finally got up picked up his chair and left so he comes up he's like hey man he's like look the spot you were sitting in that's my spot like i don't he's like yeah well you weren't there he's like i understand but that's my spot like don't sit there again all right all right you know i don't any problem just don't see the guy goes yeah all right man whatever next day yeah puts his chair now okay well i thought to me he handled right i what he weren't sitting there he didn't know any better you tell him later

right didn't tell him like yours where he said no no he's trying to get you to like move right yeah

like no no now you're embarrassing right like you said now I look like a fucking punk and I can't move

he should have just waited for you to move right but guess what the next day guy sat there again

yeah now he's saying let's go yeah that's what he he didn't say anything he just looked at

him he went upstairs he got a fucking broom for the mom came back that water just right

he had to he had to I've seen I've seen guys get hit over the head He had to. He had to.

He had to do that. But we all used to put our chairs out in a spot. Yeah, yeah. I mean, but you really think about it when a guy comes in from jailhouse guy and you're not going to do that to him either because we've been down a long time. Say, listen, I don't care what you did. You know, what made you deserve that spot? It's not like the chairs are already in place.

The chairs are in place. And we used to put our towel on there, our blanket and we put our cup for movie night. You know, that's different. But when there's no chair there and you're sitting in the spot and he goes, that's my spot. Yeah, it's just stupid. It gets stupid. These are dumb shit things that happen in jail, but they're serious. I had, so I was down

11 years, 11 and a half years and I might have told you story. I don't think I told you the story. So I get I watch Friends, like Friends comes on every day, right? So, you know, and listen, I look forward to watching Friends. Could you imagine I like Joey and the other Gasol's on the show? It's fun.

Plus Jennifer Annison's on there, Cox, and the other Blonde. So it's a fun show. So they do one little thing that I always went, Like that, in the middle, in the introduction to the, in the jingle to the show, right? And I do that. And I do it every time. So some guy, some guy, I don't know, red bone, make one, he's sitting there with the big, with these big car's headphones on. And he goes, hey, I go, yeah.

He goes, can you not clap your fucking hands? It hurts my ears. I go, excuse me? Now, you already made a mistake. He wasn't kind. He said, hell, you're hurting my ears. Stop me. I go, now, what do you mean?

He goes, yeah, I said, well, I said, I've been doing this for fucking three years. Now I'm getting ready to go home in three months. Yeah. He goes, I'm, I've been doing this for three years. He goes, well, well, I don't like it. I said, oh, you don't like it? I go, okay, wait till next time.

So I said, I'm going to tell you what. I said, how about this? You go fuck yourself and don't ever talk to me again. I said, and I'll do this every day for the rest of the time I'm here. Next day. I, you know, I don't know. him. Right. Redbone. Mike, you know. Come me, I want

to talk to you. I'm sorry. The guy wants to fucking bring it and straighten it out or whatever. But that's what we do in prison. And I'm stupid. Because I'm straight up. Well, you said it. We didn't say it. Because I'm straight up. I'm straight up. You want to talk to me? Come on. Let's go talk. You know, what's going to happen

when we talk is up to us, right? When we work it out. Walk in his cell. Closes the door. And the guy is 6 foot 8. stands in front of the door on the other side. And he pulls out an iPhone, this fucking long. Yeah, I was telling you a little story. I'm never going home. I got nothing to go home to.

He's going home in six weeks. I got nothing to go home to. You know, he's a guy from D.C. They actually state inmates. Yeah, yeah, yeah. D.C. prisoners, people don't know. From law. Yeah, they closed it down.

Yeah. So he's a state inmate. And I, Redbone, and I ain't going home. And I, uh, uh, uh, and I went. I looked at him and I tell the story it's intense when I really get into it

and I looked at him and I said boy that knife's gonna kill this motherfucker his own knife he's gonna die from his own fucking knife that's how I fucking

dealt with it of course I said dear God forgive me because I'm gonna kill him and I'm going home three months well you know number one

for the people that don't know well for the people that don't know that are listening to this three months away from going home no one supposed to ever tell somebody

when you're going home because this is what goes on. So if they think you're short, they fuck with your little bit. Yeah, they try you because they know that you don't want nothing anymore because you get your hands until you're going home. So you shouldn't tell anybody when you're going home. And I don't know that he knew that, but I was well known.

Yeah, but listen, I did the book. I did a book. It's like a handbook, prison rules. Things that do and don't do. And in one of the other things you guys know. Oh, you did a book? Yeah. How many books?

Five books. Oh, jeez. You're so fucking writer. My last one was. He doesn't speak English. but you can write. I'm listening to you. I know.

What's my last? Mafia International. There you go. But we, you know, because of all these stupid little things in jail, we had this other thing. When you go to Chow for lunch, guys would put their towels or tell the guy, hey, put my towel on the bench. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Put my towel here. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, guys are eating. Nobody's touching the bench. Yeah. Because they're afraid that, you know, they don't want the confrontation guys. Yeah. So one of my friends used to put the towel on the bench.

And I used to tell my friends. and we, you know, Lee, Lee, Lee, Lee with me. You're Canada guy, he got caught with 37 tons of wheat. Yeah. Great guy. Yeah. Anyway. Very nice guy. My back even.

We're always playing jokes. So we kept taking his towel and we were moving it. And somebody would ask us, is anybody on the bench? Nah, use it. You know, because guys are asking, they're polite. They don't want an issue. And my friend's going crazy. Who's touching my fucking town?

Oh, your own friend. You're your own friend. It's your own friend. And we're like, I don't know. So you go over to the guy in a bench, he goes, did you touch my towel? Because he's benching him. Yeah, yeah.

He goes, I didn't touch your towel. So he don't want to give us up because he don't use the bench. Yeah, yeah. So he does it again, does it again. Finally he comes over there and we put little snacks on the bench. And he says, you fucking bastards. He goes, the fuck is wrong with you. You're going to get me in a fight.

We ain't got to get in a fight. But the thing is really crazy. And everybody does that. These little games in jail is really ridiculous. Like, who the fuck makes these rules that you put your towel in your reserve? It's yours. And it's yours. You're not touching it.

Yeah, they would do that in the showers. Yeah. That means I'm taking a shower. Like there's a line and there's a fucking towel that's been there for 10 minutes. Actually, in Hillsboro, a guy did do that to me on the second floor and I was steaming. I had my towel up there and he just went in. Right. And then he told another guy, fuck him, you know.

And I'm already got my hands full with trouble. I'm facing all kinds of life sentences. and I'm fucking fuming. I talked to my friend show. How many life sentences did you face? Well, a lot. 20 what? Yeah, yeah.

And so I said that my friend, Matt, that's up to you on this side. Stand by the door. I just stand by the door. I said, I can't let this go. And I went in and you remember Hillsborough, they locked, doors automatically locked. Yeah. So I went in and, you know, I hit the guy.

And whatever. And you know what he did? He hit the button. And they came up and, you know, I got locked. down and whatever. But you know, these are stupid things. Even I was thinking about like afterwards. Imagine what would I care that he went in the shower first? Yeah, now it seems stupid. It's important. Well, it's important because it's a thing where they think they're punking you. Yeah. And it's hard to explain to people outside on the street. Like what's a big deal that

he did that? Right. You know, because that's the first thing. And then, you know, and I'm like, and it was a young punky kid. He wasn't a tough guy. You say the fucking button thing. Like I remember I had a fucking silly one time. He comes in. We were cellies. Like we ended up being sell he's and he was a fucking Mexican gang memory he's like listen Cox he said you know you know you know you know I do this and I do that but look you know sometimes I'm if I have problem somebody I'm you got to I got to know if they come in here I got to be able to count on you and I looked at him I said I'm going to tell you something if they come in here hard and he goes yeah I said I'm going to hit the button on my way off the fucking door right now I said I'm going

to go to the guard yeah you cannot count on me I will hit the button. I will get the guard. I'm not fucking doing nothing for you. I'm not fighting nobody. I got no fucking knife and I'm not interested to being involved.

And he goes, he was like, fucking white boy, motherfucker. I said, I'm just letting you know. You move in here. That's what it is.

That's how it is. And he was like, well, I guess I better not have any trouble. I said, I mean, you go. Exactly. That's where right.

What a smart man. I had a guy in Honduras with me, Jose Montoya. We were good friends. And he got like 30 years. He used to play. football, soccer. And, you know, a guy moves down, two cells down from us from Salvador. Short, fat kid, nice kid, tatted up. And, you know, I'm talking to him. And one of the guys

on the cell block was talking in front of his cell in the morning. He just got there. And he says to him, just kind of what you said earlier. He said in a nice way. He says, listen, please in the morning, you're in a strong accent, the guy. He says in the morning, can you talk somewhere else? Because he's out front of his daughter all the whole time. So he says, yeah, okay, no problem. He does it again. Now the guy stalker to me, and I told Jose, you know, I didn't call him, Jose, called Montoya.

I said to Montoya, this guy's serious. He should you think? Now Montoya's serious guy. And I say, yeah, 100%. So the guy goes in his cell, forget his name, and he's packing his stuff. And he says, John, it was nice meeting, you're this and that. I knew it. You know?

He's going to the hall. He gets a razor. And he raised the fuck out of him. And I told him, I told Montoya, I told you he's going to do something. I said, you could tell. He was going to do something. He was a real guy. You know, no bullshit, very quiet.

He wasn't like a big mouth. And, you know, when he came over and said, hey, it was nice meeting you, brother. You know, and I said, oh, this guy's going. Oh, shit. And he raised the fuck out of him. Because he wouldn't shut up. He was a disrespect. He was trying to sleep.

He was right. He was right. It's early in the morning. What are you doing? John, real quick. Like, I know bits and pieces of your story, but, I mean, if you had to summarize it in 10 or 15 minutes, you know, what's the basic word about of your story?

Wait, wait, wait. He doesn't get 10, 15 minutes right here. You got like an hour and a half. No fucking way. We go, we do one-on-one on our own. Right now, you tell, give him a little synopsis. He did, 15 minutes. When I interviewed him, he got, he got, I'm going to, yeah, let's check. No fucking way.

Dow. What's the matter? Pinky. Yeah, I'm thinking. Pinky Duskador. Yeah, I just hit it. You got an hour and 54 minutes is what yours was. An hour and 50, was it an hour and 54 minutes?

154, yeah. I mean, I can leave if you got to want to do one on one. Go ahead, Johnny. So, Matt, I give you a quick overview of my life. So the people that think, most people think that are listening to my story, my background, that it started with the Gattis. That's not really the truth. It kind of was the middle of my life.

The beginning of my life is my father was involved with gangsters. He lived in Lower East Side, Manhattan, Seward Street, Rivington, and his neighbors were guys like Vito Genovese. His friends was Charlie Luciano, Lucky Luciano, his first cousin. Plackey was also a made guy, became my father's partner, my uncle's partner, in nightclubs and card games and things like that. So I was raised around these guys, little Al Greco, who's a big name in a North Jersey killer in jail got life. These were my father's friends. So I was introduced to them as a

young kid. Then later on, my baseball coach was Fat Andy Ruggiano's sons, who I still talk to Anthony Ruggiano. He does shows with me, his brother Albert. And their father was the boss of our neighborhood of the Gambino family. So I was raised around gangsters. Then my little girlfriend at the time's uncle and father were wise guys with the Lucchese family. Those are my other friends. Later on, the Burke family, Frankie Burke from the famous movie Goodfellas was one of my best friends. And later on, he gets killed. And I'm actually one of the guys that come to the house and tell this, not one of if I am the guy that comes to the house to bring the sister to Kings County Hospital in Brooklyn. So we can identify the body that it's her brother after he got shot ahead five times by another mutual friend of ours, Tito, who later on he gets shot in head 10 times in retribution for killing Frankie.

This is our neighbor. So this is like a mortgage broker. Yeah. Right. It's like a lot like the mortgage. It's a lot like being a mortgage broker. So when people ask me, where are you going with my bike? I can't see me.

Oh my God. Are you serious? I think they can see you. It was blocking my fucking beautiful face. Here's the problem. He's cutting into my 10 minutes. I was going to say. No, you go ahead.

I'll shut up. Do I get 10? How does this pink? I really like that. We need it. We needed to put Hank in. I don't match. It's fine.

I'm sorry, so you kill it. Anyway. Listen, mortgage brokers and killers. Go ahead. That's a good time. You know, I grew up in a very violent world, whether I liked it or not, around serious gangsters, top gangsters in the world. Later on, I end up with the Goddies.

So getting there is my preparation, like people go to grammar school to junior high school to high school. I'm raised in this life, and I'm around blood, violence, the gyms boxing, with the Ruggianos also their father and my father's friends. So when people are surprised to hear that I was, how did it get so close in Albanian, an immigrant family, an immigrant family from Albania, did I get so close to the mob and the Gadi family? It's not really, because I was around other crews earlier in life that were huge in the mob world. So, you know, when you get into this world, you have to,

either know somebody or be trusted after a while. But I was raised around this since I'm a kid, like I said. So it brought me right into the violence. I made a lot of money in the drug business. And in a violent world, I became a very aggressive guy. And people, you know, when I try to talk about it, I talk about it because I want to show the downslide and downfall of this life. Not the aggressive part.

The $35 million Forbes magazine articles, all that shit. It's not about that. No. It was at the time. I mean, listen, you know, as a young guy, and I'm pulling in my driveway and it's seven blocks long, you know, and you've got a boxing ring outside and baseball cages, three homes, a lake, built-in pool. Yeah, I don't realize as a young guy, hey, I bought this property at about 23, 24 years old. I bought 16 properties or whatever.

I bought 12 properties, to be exact, I think. But in conjunction, over the years, probably 16 to 20 properties. And you just don't realize the level at you at you want more. because it's not about just the money it's about the power it's about the style of living you have it's about the success that you see in your mind coming from nothing that you want

more and more and more and what I try to do in our show is in you know we had one time it was called Mafia Truth and then we changed it to the elite show is to show people that your situation or Mike's situation my situation you may be up here

but don't worry you're going to come down that slide because there's no way you're staying up here if you're on the street. You're going to hit that, you're going to hit bottom. And that's really what I'm going to fill out an application today? What do you put on an application today? Well, when I first came home and you know this, people ask me, fill out an application for work.

And you know, my parole and everybody's asked me, I go, yeah, I did. And I says, but here's the problem. They write, have you ever been convicted of a misdemeanor? Yes. Have you ever been convicted of a felony? Yes. Do you have a driver's license? No.

What was your felony charge? Several murders. I mean, who's hiring you? Do you have trouble with authority? Obviously, yes. You know, so you're not getting a job unless you're going to, and this is one of the things I talk about second chance programs for inmates, ability once you go to jail to come out and get any job,

whatever that job may be. If you can qualify for that job, they should be able to give a job so you have a chance at life again. If you don't give us and other people like us a chance, then you're asking them to go back into a revolving door because you're not giving them that shot. And then, you know, kids were my neighbor where we grew up on Jamaica Avenue,

East New York, South Jamaica, we all grew up a certain way. And I understand that it's a tougher life for us than some other people. But that doesn't mean that you got to go into life of crime. We were just guys trying to take a shortcut. And, you know, the problem is you look at our government the way it's situated, then I, you know,

and I speak about this on a show. I don't like what the, you know, listen, look what's going on Ukraine and Russia now, right? who knows what's true because we know we can't trust our media. We know what they've been telling us for two years during the pandemic. We know what they're telling us during BLM. Don't believe your lying eyes that you see burning buildings and police being attacked. Peaceful riot.

So, you know, it's a peaceful riot. Demonstration. This is a joke. So when we see that the manipulation just of that, then I'm not sure that anybody's ever going to believe the media of what's going on in Ukraine and Russia. You've got to question everything that's being said now because we've seen so much lying going on to us that this government has allowed this to happen

where now we are no different than a third world country of bullshit media. We're no different. We're not getting the real story. We don't know really, and I've seen some UFC fighters actually talk about this. We don't know what went on. We do know one thing.

Biden was over in Ukraine before he was elected president. It was pocketing all kinds of money. And it was a situation all of a sudden now We're in the middle of getting ourselves involved in a war and as bad as I feel for the people and the kids because you feel terrible for them. It's the governments we don't trust because we don't know what's really going on.

And like that, and I'm going to make a correlation. With the mob world, it's the same thing. It's all smoking mirrors and bullshit. And when you buy into it, you're really a sucker. The other day, Matt, John and I had a conversation. Go ahead. I'm sorry. No, I'm not saying anything. I thought you had a question there.

The other day, John and I were driving in a car and John says to me, if I put that much energy and effort that I put into this whole lifestyle into a regular job or business, how much, where would we be today? In other words, because we're looking at a million-dollar homes and the things that, you know, like you were in construction, I don't know if you did any flipping, but you did mortgaging and all that stuff, if we just put that kind of energy and effort into the, we call it easy money, but by the way, there is no easy money, the dope money, that money, nothing's easy, because there's a cost to all of it, the free money you got.

It was a cost to all of it. At the time, it seems easy and free, but the cost is, listen, we're paying the rest of our lives for it, including yourself. I worked very hard at fraud. Yeah, yeah. It was a lot of ways, but if you put a lot of legit, if you bought a house, flipped it, bought another one, flipped it. But you were very successful in the fraud business until you went to jail.

So you got caught. Right. But the thing is, the way we're helping each other now, doing this, we could have helped each other back then the right way. And became very successful. If you got the right guys, like, you know, I helped guys. Like, you know, I used Duke Mandel and Timmy Donovan earlier. These guys, I helped.

They gave more kinds of money. I started them out in businesses, and they fucked me. And, you know, this is, you know, this also is the problem. You have guys that are just not nice guys. It doesn't matter what I did for a living. I wasn't a beat artist. These guys are beat artists. I would help them along.

You would think they'd be dedicated for me to the rest of their lives. Instead, they're trying to dig in your pocket when you're sleeping. So this is Dave People get entitled They start thinking You know You give them You give them a couple hundred thousand dollars

And then And they start to think that That they earned it Yeah Yeah Well I'll tell you a good story Yeah Timmy Donovan's father

When he was alive Had an argue on me Because I gave his son A couple hundred thousand To buy a building I gave him money For the parking business And his father's argue with me

And I said to him You know what's funny about you? I says You're a nice guy But you're full of shit You wouldn't give your own son a dollar because you didn't trust them but it's okay for him to take my money go right around on motorcycles inside my inside my building sell weed book make and do anything else to fuck me out of

my money without my permission i said play around like it was a couple bucks but why didn't you give a money if you if you had such good faith in your son you never trusted your own son so you're talking you're talking bullshit just be a real guy and say the way it is but the problem is guys don't want to be honest with themselves because you know being honest themselves they got to be truthful about their kid, what they raised. How many murders did you plead guilty to? I think I pled to six murders, conspiracies, four, and two.

And about 40 shootings. Yeah, that's a... Well, I mean, I don't know. No, no, the reason is... Threw that in there. I don't know why he threw it in there. You know, everybody's always curious to ask me that question anyway. I actually never asked him that question until just now, by the way.

That's the first time I've asked him that question. And I got to say, though, when people ask me that question, whether it's you or somebody else, I try to be to show kids, this life is bullshit by me saying, don't believe the rest of these guys. They didn't do this. They didn't do the work because you can put anybody on here. And you've got to sit with them and be very specific. I'm always asking everybody to do. And people always try to dance around it.

Well, ask a guy. Can you tell me the first time you did this kind of shooting? what were you thinking what kind of guns you use where did it happen and go to the second shoot and go to third i'm going to tell you why most of them are going to stop at one or maybe two right and i blast sammy gravano for that all the time because he tells everybody he's a perfect killer on his shows he had a lot to say about me but i've confronted him a hundred times he only shot a gun once the second one i don't count because the second time was a 15 or 16 year old boy so that's his claim to fame being a tough guy they're full of shit and if you weren't full of

you'd see there and list it when you're doing your podcast and you'd say, I did this, I did that, I did this. Instead, he tells you he's good at murder when he really didn't. He didn't do anything. He wasn't shooting anybody. He was known to Sammy the bullshit. I was actually growing up. That was his nickname.

So, you know, nobody says that. They talk about, you know, the title they gave him. So, you know, I always say the same thing. I can make a title for you today. You are now the new concierge of podcasting. You're my underboss, and, you know, we could be full of shit like everybody else. You know, because it's just a bullshit. And that's why I try to positive message your kids.

Don't buy your 10 a lot of money this bullshit. Get a job. Do the right. Listen, we just said it the other day. You can go to UPS, start off driving a truck or loading trucks or whatever. And if you stay with them 10 years, watch how successful you get in stock options and everything. You don't need to do this. I say FedEx.

I use the exact same thing all the time when I say FedEx. Yeah. Yeah. My family member, I won't say who he is, was on the street with me. in trouble, face murder charges, beat him, and he changes, turned his life around, and he works for a major corporation, right, from nowhere, and he makes almost a half a million a year.

So it could be done. Yeah. You know, if that's really, you know, the mindset is, I didn't know any better, I guess. I was raised in this life since I'm a kid. I had some chances and, you know, you had a baseball scholarship. Well, then I had an arm injury.

So I had some chances. And when they fell, University of Tampa, When they fell out, I used as an excuse to continue on the street. You know, I didn't have to go on the street. I could have did something else, right? I could have got a job somewhere else. I didn't do that. So what I try to tell kids is be true to yourself, right?

Well, not just kids, men, anybody, woman. Be true to yourself. Don't give up on yourself like that because you're just going to struggle the rest of your life and it's going to bring you out. Look how much heartache we had? You know, we're talking about all the thing. But how much heartache did you sit with your hands and your, your, you're, face crying. How many times you were depressed sitting in jail cells and you know, everybody left

you, you told a story earlier about your girl. Depressed, I was kissing the fucking cinderblocks. I woke up kissing Cinderblocks. That message has got to come across. Yeah. I was kissing Cinderblocks and everything, you know, in, in the joint. Yeah, I woke up, you wake up mad. Like, I thought that was someone there. I was kissing Cinderblock walls. That's not, that's not a joke. That's real. But when I talk about the violence, too, you got to remember. So when I'm talking about the violence. It's like I'm talking about somebody else. It was a different lifetime. Matt, Matt's like, what the fuck is he saying?

You didn't kiss no Sinderblocks? I mean, out of all the talent out there, this is what you ran with this guy. You were kissing. Did you ever kiss a Sinda Block? Come on. No. Come on. No. None of those dreams. Hey, Matt. Everybody calls me and says

either they love him or they call me and they tell me, what are you guys doing? Listen, I thought when we did our interview, when you left I thought worst fucking interview I've ever done

it was horrible yeah it it I totally when you left I was like holy shit I never asked him about this never asked them about that I was like fuck

I was like oh this is this is horrible yeah and then that video just kept going and going and in the comment section they either they was only two comments on him I could listen to this dude

forever he's amazing or bro I couldn't, I just couldn't watch, bro. I can't stand that guy. How could you stay in the room with this? Yeah, exactly. Like, how could be, oh, it was just one of the other. But I was thinking, what you just said about this, so back to, you know, so.

We're going to put the wall up. Let's put the wall up. I'm always, I'm always asked, like, if you could do it, not always, but, you know, could you do it over again, you know, or do you regret? I was love the, do you regret anything? Do I regret anything? Do I regret getting out of fucking prison at, you know, losing 13 years? Yeah.

No, it was fine. Doing, yeah, yeah, oh, I loved it. Getting out at 50 with nothing. Yeah. Everybody's giving up on you. Oh, yeah. And rightfully, so, you're a scumbag. Right. Like, I'm doing scumbag fucking things.

Right. You know, like, in the first couple of years I was locked up, I was hated everybody. Everybody fucking piece of shit, this guy. I gave that guy money. I did this. Right. You don't want to turn my calls. This guy, you know, everybody was, it was everybody else's fault.

Right. And then eventually you get to that point where you start to realize, no, if you're lucky, because a lot of guys that did 20 years and still hate everybody. Yeah. And they went out and they're bitter and they're going to die of a heart attack. The truth is, by the time I, after a few years, I started realizing, no, I put me here. Yeah. And people say that now, man, I can't believe you did all that time.

Can't believe that they gave you that much time. They didn't give me that much. I gave me that much. I put me in jail. Well, here's the problem, Matt, right? And I'm very honest too. And people ask me questions. I understand, really do understand why I shot and stabbed and batted a lot of guys.

They deserved it. This is being honest. They deserve. And if I had to give a list, if you, if you're seeing a list, I can write 10 names right now. But these are other, these are other criminals. These are other guys that are. Well, no, it's not, it's, yeah, it's not that. It's they are looking for when they test the waters and they're not sure.

Like, there's 10 guys right now. I can write a list that I, in some ways, wish I was the guy I used to be because I'd slaughtered them. Because I know it in full of shit. Current guys. Current guys right now. Okay. But here's the difference. No, you're off the list.

You were on the list the other day because you were snoring loud and I couldn't sleep. I'm sorry. So those 10 guys are, they really deserve to get what I used to do. And they know I'm not going to do it. So they got big mouths and they talk nonsense and they're not in the league with me when it comes to this. They all try to people because they're egos and they're full of shit and whatever. And they talk and talk because it's the area you can type away and all that. But the difference is, and this is where I'm going to.

I try to tell kids that are going through what I'm going through, or men that are going through what I'm going through. It ain't worth your own life to do that. Before I didn't realize that, I was willing to give up my life for that. Now I say to myself, as much as I want to do it, I'm not hurting myself. So that's always going to be my message to everybody. And I say it all the time, you might as well look in the mirror and shoot yourself then. Because this is very easy for me to do what I used to do.

I know they're full of shit because when there was no cameras out there, they weren't doing anything. Now it was technology and cameras, they're still talking when they didn't do it back then. So this is, at the end of the day, you've got to say to yourself, what's my life worth? Now my life's worth something. Back then, I didn't think it was worth anything for whatever reason. And I went through therapy, and now my high is to help other kids not do what I used to do. Say, I get what you're doing because, you know, people say, how'd you change?

I didn't change that much. I just don't react the same. I mean, I still have that same feeling to go after guys that are really fucking with me or guys that are screwing me or guys like, say Duke or Timmy I just brought up their names earlier, or Mike Mallet and these guys that robbed me

and beat me. Every day I think about, you know, but I won't react anymore because I know that it's just not worth my life to react to these guys and that these guys somewhere down the line of pieces of shit and they'll get what they got coming from.

You know, and I believe that really, you know. At the end of the day, they're going to pay some way, I believe. with God, with karma, whatever. And, you know, and I just look at it and I go, you know what, move forward, do the right thing, do the right thing for kids and put them in the right direction. And do the right thing for myself and family.

Enjoy my life. Right. Yeah. So I didn't know that because you want to us someone. He was so sweet. Thanks. He's so sweet. He actually is a sweetheart and a charmer too.

I tell you, he really. So, let me. Hey, he's caught into my 10 minutes. Yeah. It was fucking 30 minutes. He's got 30 minutes. What are we doing? So let me

So, so, so cut. Cut, now he's running a machine. Cut. Can you put your microphone stand up just, I think at some point like 10 months ago? Me? You understand John? You, you, it's in Matt's frame. My, because he touched it.

Oh, no, yeah. He's sweet, you put it, you put it in my frame. Is that any better? I, no. No, it's got to go this way. It's got to go this way. Yeah, but then he's blocking me the whole fucking time. It's got to go this way or something.

It's not good. It's been all good? Yeah, you can't touch the tech stuff. You see what I put up with? I see it's across my neck. It's good? It's across your neck. This way more.

No, it's not. I mean, I was just saying that's what's bothering you? Yeah, I want to look pretty. Oh, my God, bro. You're all got fucking probably hundreds of hours. Yeah, hundreds of hours of you. So here's what, this is a setup. I don't know if you want to go there.

That's why I want to stop. So stop, I don't know if this is a good setup. Did you want to ask, does you want to be asked? I want to see if you want to bring up the guns with John, if you want to bring that up. Oh, no. Yeah, they gave the guns to you? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I want him to ask that, like, not specifically, he don't know.

So the setup is, what's one of the things that happened out there that most people don't know about between you and junior? Does that make sense? Goddy, Jr.? Yeah, with Junior. because that's the thing they'll attack you like crazy so what

you ring up they'll be writing on your face they're nonstop they will drive you I mean they're getting it on us this is for us

don't get me wrong this is for us okay they're balls it's not like that they'll just have yeah yeah yeah but it's it's

it's I think it's good theater for his his channel oh 100% okay so so you just ask so you're gonna ask him what's one of the things that you

want people to know that happened between you and John that very very I don't even ask it like that. I was saying it was I heard that it was at one time you were you were giving guns to, can you tell us about that? Okay. To hit Gotti.

All right. All right. Okay. Sorry. You see what I'm saying? All right. All right. So I don't think he should ask to hit Gotti.

No, okay. Just, just, I'll just say to the guns. So at one point you, you, you made this difficult. No, no. Go ahead. So at one point, so at one point you hit or you were giving guns to. To John Gotti, I mean, to John Gotti Jr. Gave you some gun, gave you some Goddys Jr.

I got guns to him. Okay, who gave him? So just say, listen, at one time, there was a situation you were giving guns. What were they for? Okay, all right. So at one point you were giving guns, at what point, what was that for? What's going on with, it has something to do with Gotti Jr? Yeah, what happened was in the mid-90s.

I want to get you in the mic. them to hear that because you're so far away from the fucking Mike, motherfucker. He don't kill anybody anymore, I can say that. So what happened was in the mid-90s, there was a lot of, after guys were being hit back and forth over Paul Castellano in the mid-80s got hit, and then later on in the 90s,

when senior goes to prison, Cotty Jr. takes over. And when he takes over, the family is the acting boss, half of the family from the faction of the Castellan, aren't happy about junior in leadership and Gotti Senior calling a shot from prison and you have guys like Danny Marino you have guys like Joe Watts

I met Danny Marino just for a record yeah I did you know white Mercedes Benz Jimmy Falle Jimmy Brown failure you have these guys who are loyalists to Paul Castellano they don't like what happened they don't respect Junior in the position and Nicky Carrasso and so forth from the Brooklyn guys that start

having discussions about killing Gotti Jr. and killing his uncle, John Gotti Sr., his brother, Pete, and the brother-in-law, Carmine at the time. So they discuss it. Somebody comes to see me, Charles Kinig, and he says to me, would you hit these guys? And I said, tell me what's going on. He says, well, they want them out of the way. They want to run the family. They don't want them there. They don't want senior running, you know, the family from prison. It's over for them. I said, all right. Did you have a choice, you think, at that moment?

Yeah, I had a choice. Yeah, yeah. I had a choice, but I had my own problems with Ghani at the time, not the father, but with the son and them, and they were talking too much, and I didn't like it. And, you know, I went through names in the past of guys. I hit around him, you know, one of them, Johnny Gabbitt, the other one, Steve Newell, that later on, he just passed away, became a friend. of mine, believe it or not again, and he was on my show. My own cousin, Nikki, I shot him up,

Joe Kane that was around him. We batted him. Then later on, we stabbed him up. He was around Goddy, and then we robbed a couple bookmakers around him. We took one of his uncle's son-in-laws, and we beat him real bad on the side of Bell Park. We left him for dead. So we started attacking all their guys, and they never retributed back. And so I guess they came to me to step it up to the next thing and hit these guys. They gave me a machine gun. They gave me a nine millimeter. I took those guns and I put them in a tattoo shop in Ozone Park that everybody knew of. I was a friend of ours and we grew up with him on Jamaica. He was a childhood friend. And we put the guns in there in Kubo shop. Now, he knew the guns where they are. Obviously,

they're in his safe, but he didn't know who the hit was on for. And it was supposed to be for that. And during the negotiations, we're trying to set up where we're going to hit him. We were going to hit him in a restaurant that we were going to. and I was going to come in through the back kitchen, and I had two shooters that were going to come in from the front and to make sure nobody could run out, and I was going to do the shooting. We have a driver.

At this point, after we're talking about how we're going to set up, how we're going to do that, who's going to come, they call off the hit, and they ask for the guns back because what I was told, senior guy... That's never a good thing. Well, they agreed to stepping over and they had a panel of guys who would run a family, and they agreed to let certain guys like Nikki Kraso step in on that panel

and collect the money and see it as really the face of the Gambino family. He's a legitimate gangster and tough guy. He's been around forever. When they ask for the guns back, I refuse to give them back because I know the situation I'm in now, that both sides and then I'll be the guy in the middle. So I wouldn't give the guns back. And I told my guys, nobody gives his gun back.

until I was going to prison. I had several cases at the time. And so they panicked that I won't give the guns back. Unbeknownst to me at that time, they told me they actually got the guns from Gotti Jr. himself, not knowing that the shooting was going to be on him, that we were going to kill him.

So they had no excuse. They kept asking for the guns back. Junior was asking, where's my gun? And I'm not giving them back. And that's why they're asking me, give him back. And I told Charles, nobody's getting those guns. I just nobody's getting anything. So Junior, so how...

Yeah, he gave, Junior gave them the guns to have himself whacked with him. Right. And it comes out during the trials. So when people ask me, you know, the betrayal of the mafia, and you know what a funny thing is, these guys talk about killing me 100 times too. So, you know, our plot actually went a little further.

But when people talk about friendships in this life, there is none. Now, you guys will technically best of friends, technically, you and junior. I mean, we were good friends. I mean... You slept in his house? Yeah, I was slept in his house.

I was in his wedding, at his wedding. I was only a couple hundred people at the Halmsley Palace. He was the best man at mine, his signature. I was in his sister's wedding party. So, you know, so, yeah, we were close. When people say, we're on, I mean, I don't know how many more videos and photos and family gatherings we need. You know, so...

You'll kill your best man. I'm not laughing. It's not funny, but that's funny. Well, in that life, There is no best friends. There is no, anybody who believes anything, just don't take my word for it. Look at history of everybody hitting each other.

You know, everybody's hitting each other all over the place. Best friends, bosses, under bosses. This is the life. It's nothing but treachery. There is no friends. And who can hurt you the most? It's about who can hurt you to most. And who's got the most money?

How do you get it? How do you take the power? How do you take the platform? And that's what that life's about. Anybody tells you anything different? They're so full of shit. And the people that comment that don't know, They're so naive to understand the level that we play at.

Even today, when I'm out of that life, they're still bent on coming after me because they have to retract from the truth. They somehow. And, you know, there's so much more in that life that I could sit here for a year straight to talk about this stuff and the things were on. But the thing that happens is guys come out of the woodwork like Lee did that was in prison with me in McCain. So there's a million guys that grew up with us. the factual stuff of what went on in this life and you know we got his lawyer the father's lawyer richie raybach was my attorney up to about 2000 so or anyway till i went to prison in the 90s you know the middle of late 90s so you know these are the ties we all have to each other because

of we want to keep a thumb on each other to know what everybody's doing so they're not cooperating or whatever else is going right yeah so i have a question so like basically like Like, there's like a hit on you, right? Like, there's guys out there that want to have you murdered. Do you, are you, am I wrong about that? Right now? In general. I mean, haven't there been.

When we lived that life, you know, I've been stabbed up. I've been shot. I've been batted. I've been hit by cause. I've been everything. You know, guys try to kill me. I don't know how many times, 10 times, 12 times. There were setups.

Guys that used to be my enemies, very serious guys. I mentioned them a lot. You know, we circled the blocks a few times before you. We circled the block. They had different schemes to try to hit me, and we discuss it. Now we laugh about it because we're out of that life. So that's just part of it. We were raised like this.

Every day is part of that. You know, it's nothing special. They're trying to hit you today. It's crazy that it sounds. That's like saying to somebody that goes and serves a tour in Iraq or Afghanistan, do you think about it? I mean, it's part of their everyday life. They put the uniform on.

It's part of it. Police officer puts his uniform on. It's part of it. That's why he always talking about pro-America, a pro-police, pro-USA, because they're risking themselves every day. They're out there in a good way. We risk ourselves every day, whether or not, because when you're doing what I do and you hurt as many people and shoot people and kill people, you're always going to be a target,

right? And that's just the way it is. But this ain't the 80s and 90s when there's consequences to your actions before guys would be dropped constantly. Now you don't see guys getting dropped. I mean, guys can get killed. still, but it's not nowhere near. Unless you're in Chicago right now.

New York is turning back into the old West again with the... Not gangsters. You're talking about the street kids. Street kids pushing people into subways, robbing them, shooting them up. I mean, it's getting stupid out there again. Yeah, it's a different world. It's a different world. Yeah.

I talk about that, the street kids from my neighbor. The gangsters are tough kids. And I just hope I reach some of them so they don't follow that street shit. Because it's getting them nowhere. If you're interested in checking out more content from John and Mike you can go to the elite show on YouTube with Mike Dowd fortunately um and but so yeah check it out and I appreciate you guys watching the video and see you