Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - Ex Mafia Enforcer Escapes Death, Mafia, And Prison | Tommy Harding

Episode Date: October 12, 2023

Ex Mafia Enforcer Escapes Death, Mafia, And Prison | Tommy Harding

We started getting involved with stealing cars. Not only did we steal the cars, but we also got in contact with chop shops, people that were running chop shops all in Brooklyn. So we go outside the club, we're hanging out, and I fucking couldn't believe it. You had women walking around naked. You had women walk around with chains on the neck and guys from pulling them. Like they were master and slave or whatever to fuck. Right.

But when I would go there, I would act like I was king shit. you know I go in here tell them to give me a Drake I fuck around with the women I snort cocaine I put my foot up on the wood I was like fuck you

you're all right that's the way I got and the bigger I got the more of the asshole I became but I was taking care of business and he put the gun to my head and I gave them the money then I picked up

and then I said to myself they're going to kill me so I got to try something I got to do something so I turn around we'll quit jumped on that guy and I started hitting him then all of a sudden I felt real stick like this real quick boom and they pronounced me dead at the scene because they did feel a pulse they didn't feel no pulse

on anything so they put me in a fucking body bag hey this is matt cox and I'm going to be doing an interview with Tommy Harding Tommy is a former mob enforcer and a former bounty hunt and he's got an amazing story. Well, check this out. My story is a little non-conventional. No, a lot not conventional. I was born in Brooklyn, New York, in a neighborhood called Burrell Park, Brooklyn.

That's actually where Barbara Streisand was born. It's a Hasidic Jewish neighborhood. On 53rd Street, 15th Avenue, Brooklyn, New York. You don't look Jewish. I know, right? Nice sound Italian. Figure that out. were your parents, you know, married?

Were they in the household, brothers, sisters? Yeah, let me explain this a little bit. My dad is African-American. He's from Georgia. My mom is a mixed with Polish, Italian, black. She's just a total mutt. But if you look at us, she could pass for white. We had a total of eight siblings.

I'm the sixth of eight. But here's the thing. When they got together, each of them had two kids. So they had four. Okay? And then they had four more. My brother Benny, myself, my little brother Viotis, and my little sister, Darlene, which made a total of eight. At the hall.

Yes, it was, uh, I wore a lot of hand-me-downs. And we had one fucking bath. We were, we were living, this is the deal. My dad was the superintendent. The owner of the building was a Jewish guy, Mr. Landauv. My father was a mechanic, electrician, a plumber, you need it. He could do it, okay? So they gave him an apartment in the building, right?

But it was a basement apartment. We lived in the basement. With our people that lived in the basement at 53rd Street, and my father was the one that did all the buildings of maintenance and fixing or whatever. But he used all his sons to help him do all of that. work. You follow what I'm saying? The only downside that my dad had was he was also an alcoholic. Right. Dead one. Very violent. My father was very violent. And the person that felt that the most was my mother, my mother, Margaret. As a child, what I watched. I mean,

my dad would get drunk, come home, raise. hell like you would not believe he was the type of guy that broke things all the time you know he bust up things cussing at her drinking and with the little kids that you see standing around now I was watching him do this and I was like bye you know what I'm saying so it was uh it was something else I got to tell you I'm watching my mother cry cost him she couldn't get away you know what she's going to go with all these kids and she had no job she was back in the we're talking about the 70s. You know, back in the day, my mother,

she didn't have a really good education. Stuff like that. So she was kind of trapped. Right. Yeah, my, you know, same, it was a very similar situation growing up with me. Only, only four kids. And we weren't in the basement.

But, yeah, it was, she, you know, they're trapped. It's like, you know, people say, oh, well, why do you stay? What are you going to do? You got me enough kids? How am I going to support four kids? No money?

Yeah. exactly so you know it's not like um yeah it's not like you there was a huge child support like that back then if he said i'm not paying you're not getting it exactly back in the day exactly you know my mother was terrified of driving she never drove you know she tried uh but she was just a nervous wreck and she couldn't drive she never drove a vehicle never owned a car so you know it was very difficult for her but uh as i got older things got worse, you know what I'm saying, Matt. When I became a teenager about, I don't know, 13, 13, 14 years old,

I started hitting the streets a lot in Brooklyn. But see, in Beryl Park, you could not do nothing around that neighborhood to hang out with the Hasidics because they kept themselves. So what I did was me and my brother, what we did was we went to Bensonhurst, which was only maybe, I don't know, maybe a mile from the home. the neighborhood changes in different directions. Okay, you could head the south from the front of my home and you're in the Spanish section.

You know what I'm saying? If you had no, you're going to where the Italians and the Irish are. You follow what I mean? So different areas, that's where we, that's where I hung out at. And that's why I started to get connected with the wrong people. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So who were the wrong people?

I mean. Well, how I first got started. I joined a gang back in 19, oh my gosh, 70 months, 1975, 1976, a gang in my neighborhood. You know, we thought we were king shit. You know, we wore these jean cut off sleeves. You had the warlords on the back of it. You know, we thought we were tough shit, you know?

How old were you? Yeah, they were mostly, it was mixed too. It was like we had Italians, we had Hispanics. and I was the only black with the crew. How old were you? I mean, I was about 15. Okay. About 15 years old.

You know, it was kind of crazy when they came up with this movie called The Warriors. I was just thinking that when you said that. Back in 1979, we were the original Warriors because we were the warlords and we were the guys that were jumping over turnstiles, running down the platform. Jumping onto the trains and the cops chasing us, and then we did all of that kind of stuff. But we started getting involved with stealing cars in the neighborhood. Right.

And what we did was not only do we steal the cars, but we also got in contact with chop shops, people that were running chop shops all in Brooklyn. I'm just talking about deep in the Italian neighborhoods. Okay, we would bring the cars there, and they would pay us. Of course, we would, they were, we were good at, stealing cars, but you've got to understand something. Back of the 70s, they didn't have all these key fobs, their hoods were locked. Most people left their cars locked. There was no alarms. It was

easy stealing cars back in the day. You know what I'm saying? And all you have to do is have a slap hammer, slap out the ignition, slap out the ignition, and then take a screwdriver and start the car. You know, that was the deal. You know, and if the door was locked, you remember the, when you pull up to unlock the door, had the big button on it, or you had a hanger in here, pull it up. Yeah. You're in. They're in. So we would do a good. I can't tell you how many cars that we stole. But then as we got, as I got older, we started getting into shoplifting. We would do a shoplifting and stuff like that. We were going to see. I was just thinking that remember the old cars like a lot of the windows? They didn't even have a metal piece that they slipped it. You could actually just pull the window out. Exactly. Exactly. It's like how do you even get into the, because it sucks up into the windows.

the metal, or the whatever that, the metal piece that goes right. Yeah, yeah, sorry. I was just also thinking, I make TikTok. So I was thinking, you know, in shorts and stuff, I was thinking I'm going to use the warriors. I'll use the warrior. I'll do a clip with this and have

the warriors running because, you know, there was all those fight. You know, they'd have the fight. They'd pull out the switchblade. Yeah. They'd all kind of stand off. They'd have the gang. It was a great movie. Oh, I loved them. I love that movie.

But that's basically how it was for me as a teenager. And the thing about that is I started outgrowing all my friends. I mean, I was getting bigger. And then I saw this movie, right? I never knew anything about this guy, this guy named Arnold Schwarzenegger, right? And I saw this movie, you're coming the tracks to call Pumping Eye on TV. And I was looking out, I was like, damn, that's, that's kind of cool. And I was still involved with the warlords at that time, right?

So I went and I saw that movie. And when I came out of seeing that movie, I saw it at the Oriental Theater in Brooklyn, New York. We're a buddy of my name Neil and Ray. I fell in love with bodybuilding at that point. I had to get weights somehow. But at that time, I had no place to put them. You know what I mean? So, so I started working out of my first.

friend's house, Orlando. It's guys named Orlando Rodriguez and he had weights at his house and I got the money together and we bought our weights and I started training. I became so obsessed with working out at that point that I just got gigantic. Then I got into nutrition. And then that just made me more dangerous. By the way, just another side note, I actually made. my girlfriend watched pumping iron the other day with me probably with probably not the other day it's probably two three weeks ago because she'd never seen it we're like you've got to see this movie got too that's that's a must a must see movie yeah with every five or eight oh and that was fantastic i watch it occasionally you know it's just to bring me back

to my my my my best decades that i can remember uh clothing and women and everything with the late 70s It's too late 70s. You know what I'm saying? The world's heavy, uh, two tops and bell bottoms and all that kind of stuff. I, that was, that was my time. You followed up. I said that was, that was my decade, the 70s. But, uh, I got a little bit, a little bit more crazy.

I started meeting a lot of influential people. And I was making a lot more money, uh, with the cars. And then they bumped me up a little bit. Now, you got to understand. something, right? I'm this African-American guy. I'm hanging out with the attires and the Irish in Bay Ridge, going to their bars, hanging out. Not anybody like that. Not all of the guys like that. I had guys come over to me, and I'm going to use this word, I'm just going to go out and say it. What the fuck is this nigga doing here? You know? But when they would say that,

the guys that I were with, we would confront them. We'd have like a standoff in a bar, and then it would calm down and no one would get hurt, but that happened quite often. For a while, it would stop like coal.

After a while, everybody got to know me and I was earning money. They started using me as a bag man. Shylock. Me. At 18 years old, Shylock and in Brooklyn, New York.

but are you you're doing it for someone correct yeah i was doing it for someone there in brook right now you got to understand something you're probably uh well aware of this they had a lot of social clubs in uh in brooklyn right okay and i can name i'll name one social club that that i met a lot of people connected people from it's called the end result he was on the eutrick avenue on 56th street called the end result okay and uh i would go there, these guys that would be playing cards and doing their thing and hanging out, smoking cigars, whatever. And they would give us jobs to do. What we had to do, pick up money. I started picking up money. Lone sharking and stuff like that. And everything changed when I

went to Manhattan. I went to Manhattan. It was hanging on Manhattan with my friends. And we just happened to be at this bar. And we had a great time. Just drinking, hanging out, young guys, and then just go outside. And you know, back in the day, they hand out flyers, right? People got our flies, hey, man, go to these place, got girls, we got this, we got that, whatever. This changed my life when this flyer got handed to me. Somebody handed me a flyer that said hellfire on it.

Why, I said hellfire. It was a club, an S&M club, on 14th Street and 9th Avenue in the Meat District. I've never been to an S&N club. I didn't know anything about S&M clubs. And I was with a buddy of mine again, Neil again. S&A, you want to go? Let's go check it out. Did you have any idea what it was?

No, I didn't even know what S&M was. Come on, you got to remember, right, Matt. There was no, there was no fucking internet at that time. There was no, you know what the, you know what the, you know what my dad's stash. Right. That was my point. And back in the day, he had this eight millimeter. of films that we used to put in the projector and it's without sound.

That was my point, okay? Unfortunately. So we go to a club and it's actually subterranean. It goes down into the street, goes down. There's a doorway. There's a triangle building on 14th Street and 9th Avenue, right? And it's a couple of hundred years old. And once you go inside, there's a long staircase that goes down.

You can hear the music thumping. the ground. You could hear it thump in the ground. Like, holy shit. This just seems pretty cool. What was outside, man, was limousines and shit. I mean, like rich people. Ain't no broke motherfuckers going down there, right? And once we made it down the stairs and made it to the right, I see this man in the window. I'll never forget it. He had a DA, DA haircut, he had girlfriend glasses, a mustache, he was smoking a cigarette, and he says, do you have ID? And I'll never forget it. And I go, yeah, I got ID. They shorter my ID.

And he says, oh, Thomas, yeah, everybody calls me Tommy. And so, what's your name? She says, my name is Jimmy. That man changed my life, okay? So we go outside the club, we're hanging out, and I fucking couldn't believe it. You had women walking around naked. You had women walk around with chains on the neck and guys from pulling them. Like they were master and slave or whatever the fuck.

Right. They had a stage up there And they had some girl And she was butt-ass naked But she had some guy licking her feet And sucking on her toes and shit Then you turn around to the right And there's like a pool

Like another pool But it's kind of like almost like a large tub There's a guy in there There's a girl peeing on them That's what I found out about golden showers They were doing that right there as well You had open drug use on the bar, people were making lines of cocaine,

stoning cocaine doing their thing. And I got to tell you something, they had porn stars down there. I know they were porn stars because me and my boys, we used to go to Times Square, and we used to watch Vanessa Del Rio, Veronica Hart, Tiffany Clark, Joanna Storm. They were all down there hanging out.

Women that I masturbated to a time they'd fucking hang it out. Right. In the club. And I couldn't believe it. And Jimmy came back out of the cashier's booth a couple hours later, was talking to me. And he says, you're a pretty big guy. He says, you're looking for a job?

He says, I can use somebody to do some security down here with the other guys. And I said, you fucking kidding me? I won't get for free. Right. I'm saying? And to make a long story short, I came back to work at the club. and my everything changed everything changed i did security for him for a while and he loved the way i handle handle people now i never never hurt anybody that don't

fucking have a coming tool that was my rule if i'm telling you not to do something down in the club and you do it you're going to get so mean handled to get out that fucking club you're not going to believe it okay but if you're drunk and you're just drunk and you don't really know what you're doing, I'll carry you like a fucking baby to a cat and pay for it. Right. It's all the way you act to give a reaction from me. Okay? Jimmy loved that shit.

He loved the way that I was. And then come to find out that Jimmy was connected. You know, he was a connected guy. And he basically took a real liking to me. And I was starting to look at him as like a founder figure. Because I was telling all the shit that was going on in my house with my mom and my dad and all this kind of shit, whatever. And at this time, you got to understand something, man. At this time, I'm older, I'm bigot, and my father, he's still Drake's, but he's, he doesn't, I don't allow him to hurt my mom.

You know what I'm saying? Because when I got 16, 15, 16 years old and I was out there doing my thievery, I, I confronted my father, and I threaten him. And I said, don't you ever put your fucking hands on my mother again. I'll kill you. you know and he never he never did i never hit my dad i'm gonna get that out there i never hit my father but i did say it to him don't you ever touch my mother again and that was the time when i was changing i was do a criminal activity i was this badass motherfucker and then he he became kind of uh how can i say uh he got sick you know he got sick and he wanted to to uh to leave

New York and take my little brother, my sister went him to Florida. And basically that's what happened. He took my little sister, my little brother to fall because my mother, I gave her money to leave here. I set her up. I set her up with a place on the Avenue C. in Brooklyn, New York, I gave her a place. Now, my mom knew, my mom wasn't no fool.

My mom was really, really a Catholic woman. You know, she goes to church, and she prays a lot, and she writes. a lot of books and stuff about her kids and whatever because, listen, I wasn't the only kid that had problems. My brother St. Clair ended out of jail. My sister Renee, heroin addict. Okay, Benny Pill addict. You know what I'm saying? So the only ones that were clean were my little brother Viotis and my little sister, Dolly, and they're the ones that went by my dad to Jacksonville, Florida. And me, I started working full time for Jimmy. Okay, real quick, why do you think he took your your little brother and sister with him.

Was there a specific reason? You want to hear something crazy? This is the crazy shit. My mom finally, you know, I got her out. I got her up the house. They were still living in the basement, my dad, right? And my dad was in and out of BSC because he started to have liver homes. Okay.

Yeah. I mean, frankly. And he wanted, my father wanted to get back together with my mother. and my mother wasn't having it. Yeah. So he felt he felt heartbroken about the way that he was. And he would not, you understand something. When my dad wasn't drinking, you know, he was a good guy.

He was a good guy, you know. We'd never been touched. You know, we never, nothing like that. He was just violent physically with me and my brothers were little. But he never touched my, my sister. He didn't believe in hitting my little girls, giving him spankers or anything like that, but he did it with the boys, did it with us. He loved them and he wanted, he wanted me, believe it in it,

he wanted me to go with him to Jacksonville, Florida as well. And I told him, no, I'm not going to stay here, take care of my mother. And he wound up taking my brother, my sister. And actually, my sister Renee's two kids, Janelle and Dawn, because my sister, she was an addict and she could take care of her two kids. So he might have taken those four and moving to Jacksonville, Florida. I got my mother a place on Avenue C in Brooklyn, and I was working in Manhattan full-time with Jimmy, full-time. Okay.

But things got bad after a while. At the club or at home? Well, let me explain to you. It goes a little something like this. I started partying a lot. Okay, this was the 80s. I started stoning cocaine at the clubs. And we were getting protection money.

I was doing these certain clubs in Brooklyn that I had to go to and forced protection money on them. In other words, if you want to have your club open next week, you have to pay us this amount of money every week. And I went to the Spanish clubs threatening them. And they were paying us for a while. You know what I'm saying? They were paying us.

But when I would go there, I would act like I was king shit. You know, I'd go in here, tell them to give me a drink. I fuck around with their women. I snore cocaine. I put my foot up on the, I was like, fuck you. You're all right. That's the way I got. And the bigger I got, the more the asshole I became.

But I was taking care of business. I was taking care of business, and it was working. It was working. It was going great. and I just felt like there was sometimes I just felt like I was invincible you know

I'm high up on cocaine I'm drinking I got all these women that like me and I thought that was that's my world and I'm going to let everybody know you can't fuck with my world no matter

you're representing the momsters yeah yeah you're a part of something you know I had some difficulties with some of the people that I got involved with that were in the organization that did not like me, but the word was put out that I couldn't be touched. Of course, I was not Italian. I was

not white. But, but what these guys like about me is that I was an earner and I was getting the fucking money. That's what they like. And the guy that stood up for me most, of course, was Jimmy. Jimmy was the guy. They even, he even got to a point, Matt, that they sent me to Boston. Fucking believe it. They sent me to South Boston to meet with some people out there. Of course, I'm going with a few other guys. Frank, Frankie,

uh, Joseph. We call him Big Joe. And, uh, and Richie Bird. Richie, I'll tell a little about Richie Bird. Um,

you remember, uh, Sesame Street when we were kids, and they had Big Bird, a yellow bird. Yeah, the yellow hair all over the place. Richie,

Richie was six, foot five, and he had this fucked up hair. I mean, it was like all over the place. So we started calling him Big Bird, Richie the Bird, and he was the guy that he was muscle. You know what I'm saying? This guy was, I mean, he was, he was bigger than me, but he wasn't muscular. He was just bright. And he wasn't that bright, but he was supposed to protect me when we would go out and do what we got to do. You know, he'd listen, I tell him to do whatever, but you got to, you know, you got to leave him to horse to war. You got to leave him to tell him what to do. Right. No. And, um, and, um, and, um, and, um, he'd listen. And, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, and, um, um, um, um,

we became really, really close. And I love, I love Ritchie. One night, one night, we're in Sunset Park, Brooklyn. Sunset Park, that's Hispanic Park. It's like 3rd Avenue and 38th Street. Okay? It's a dad of club there. One of the clubs I'd be collecting from all the time.

Okay? So we go there to collect money, hang out. And all of a sudden, you know, getting high in them, drinking, Richie's sitting down, chilling. I go to the bathroom and then I get across the, grab it at the bathroom at gunpoint. Yeah, at gunpoint. And they're telling me to come out, come, don't just move, move,

come out, come out, come out, I come out and I'm like, holy shit, right? And my fucking, I didn't need to zip her up and we're going out and they take me out to the back, okay? And they said, give us the money, give us the fucking money. And I knew that they were Spanish. I didn't turn around. I didn't turn around, but I could hit.

the accent, they were Hispanics, and he put the gun to my head, and I gave them the money that I picked up. And then I said to myself, they're going to kill me, so I got to try something. I got to do something. So I turned around, we'll quit, jumped on that guy, and I started hitting him. Then all of a sudden, I felt real stick like this real quick. Boom. And the guy stabbed me in my chest. And they got up. they took off and I'm staggering. I don't know why I did this and I wrote about this in my book.

I started the door you couldn't get back in because once it's the exit, you can't get back into the club. Right. And I made the music, whatever. And I started walking to the alley, to the alley towards the front of the club so I could try to get some help.

For some strange reason, I walked into the street. The same guys that did that were in a car. They saw me walking. They ran me over with the fucking car. They hit me. Whoa. Paul, I was fucked up, right?

Like run over, runner, or hit you? What? They hit me with the fucking car. And the next thing I know, I woke up about a month later, I was in a coma. I woke up, I was in Parkshlop Hospital, Parksville Hospital of Brooklyn on 7th Day of

and I had everything I had tubes up my nose had tubes everywhere I was like fucking Frankenstein and then the first person that I see when I wake up was my my mom

she was there and then I saw my girlfriend she was there and they started crying and stuff and I couldn't talk or anything because they had these tubes and all kinds of shit it took a few days

for me to when I got in a comment it takes a while for you to get all your shit back right okay this is this is what happened that's where I got stabbed that's what I have open heart surgery oh so the

knife hit your horn knife let me tell you something man I learned a lot about the heart okay what happened was when he stabbed me he nicked something called my left ventricle okay you have a right ventricle

in the left ventricle. One pumps the blood into your heart and the other one pumps it through your system, your brain and all that kind of stuff. I had internal bleeding, internal hemorrhaging. Okay? Well, let me tell you the story prior to what's going on with this.

When I could hit by the car, the EMS came, the EMS came, and they pronounced me dead at the scene because they didn't feel a pulse. They didn't feel no pulse on anything. So they put me in a fucking body bag. I put me the body bag

But here's the thing Here's the thing When they put me in a body bag They didn't zip it all the way through the top And I was getting air in there And when they got Now this is what they told me Of course I was unconscious

They told me that when they When they got me to the hospital The body bag was moving And the guys they The only day opened it up And they saw me breathe in And they ran me upstairs instead of bringing me to the morgue they ran me upstairs to uh to surgery and uh that's why they

they cracked me open they did all that had my heart in the fucking hand they did all this shit welded it did whatever they had to do to save my life and but i was i was i was put in a forced coma because when the car hit me they broke my ribs broke my arm uh i had multiple contusions in the head from being hit by the car i was fucked up you know what i'm saying and uh That's a story. This is the story that's in my trailer. It's actually in my trailer, my documentary trailer. My mother, my mother just loved telling that story.

And my mother, of course, she was just with her friends. She said, they put my baby in a body bag. She would tell my story about what happened. So over the years, I would laugh and I would hear my mom telling that story to her friends over the phone or whatever. So I pay homage to that. Right. the story of me being in a body bag. You know, because my mom, not that she loved the story.

What my mother told me was she loved about the story is that I survive. Yeah, of course, though. She loved that point. So that's why she could tell all of that. You know what I'm saying? And to this day, even when I'm sleeping, I'm dreaming sometimes, I hear my mother tell me that story to somebody because she told every fucking body about that story.

But to get back to what happened with me, on the after I got out of the colon and they started pulling things out of me they gave me the car out of me bag where you have to pee and everything and shit whatever all that kind of mess whatever the doctors came in there and told me that they repaired the left ventricle and I and I said I'm I'm like fucking 22 years old like am I going to be okay and they said yes yes yes you're going to be fine you got to be fine it's going to take time to see how everything goes see if my It swells up, see whatever. And to this day, I owe a lot of thanks to that doctor at Park Slope Hospital.

Now, now forget what he said to me. When I was leaving, when I was leaving that day, finally leaving the hospital and I'm going down the elevator. Now, you got to say something. I wasn't grafted for surgery. Sometimes they graft you for certainty to bypass nerves and stuff like that. they did emergency open officer they just cut me open so there's no feeling all in this you could stick needles and all whatever it's dead right completely dead you know what I'm saying so so I said to him I said thank you for saved my life he says no I didn't save your life

he goes he points up to the sky said that's who saved your life and I was like oh no thank you doctor I wasn't that I wasn't that's my mom's stuff you know I wasn't buy it And I was like, you repaired me. But it took, honestly, it took about, Jimmy came up to the hospital to see me. And he said to me, he said to me, goes, you know, you got to get at this. He really, Jimmy fucking love me, okay?

Jimmy fucking love me. All right. He says, this is, this is, I don't want you in this no more. You know? And of course, I, I, I had second thoughts about everything. thing that was going on, you know, but then the police came. The police came to the hospital before I was leaving, and they asked a lot of questions, and they already knew what I was too. They knew who I was. They told me, we know where you

are. We know what you do. We know about you. We know about everything. They, they, they, they know, they know exactly what we would do it because they followed me my life, uh, since I was in the warlords to a crime in the neighbor they knew all about and they knew what i was in manhattan they knew i was working with jimmy uh they they took pictures of jim and they they they came to the hospital room show me pictures of him and the guys that i was working with these guys were on the case they they knew what they were doing you know but you didn't know you didn't know who robbed you anyway like i mean yeah right oh you did oh i thought you said i thought you were like they were he's calmed out later on it was it was the club owners

Okay, so we're gonna pay him and just rob the money back. Exactly. It was that. They didn't want me doing that anymore. They wanted to kill me. It was that. We found that out later on. Even the police told us. The police, and Matt, you should know this. When you're working a case like that and the cops are on the fucking case, the cops are going to try to get everybody against each other. Yeah, somebody talks or whatever the case. They were saying, you know, Tommy, what are you stupid? they set you up the people that you were fucking robbing

robbed you right you know and I'm like I'm all far and that's when I start acting like I'm fucked up I'm like oh I'm sick I'm still I'm not well you know I used that for a while in the hospital because they didn't charge me with anything at that point but the jail comes later because obviously

you know I didn't leave Jimmy's I didn't leave my work but it took me oh gosh at least a year year before I had to go to physical therapy, I couldn't raise my arm because of the surgery from the stretch, from the, from the, from, from, from, from, from, from, from, from, from, I couldn't, I couldn't raise, I couldn't raise my arm. They said I never lift, I never lift weights again. I'll never,

you know, I defied all it. Right. I defied all of it. I started training myself again. I put this fucking, no, rubber, expandable thing. Remember back in the day? Yeah, I don't know. I don't. I That was your dog's a lot. Yeah. I bought that. I was using it. I was using that. And, man, that work wonders, man.

That worked wonders. That took months. But I was able to, it took me about maybe four months, but I was able to lift my arm back over my head again. I was able to do that. And then I started hitting the heavy bag and all of that. And I built, it was like a rocky movie. I mean, I was building myself back up so I could get back to work.

Right. So I can get back to my illegal activity. So I could get back. back to being this big shot of a guy because it didn't the only thing that that did to me honestly was make me be more aware of my surroundings right realize you were you were you weren't you weren't you know um people could get to you realize people could get to you that you weren't you know that you can be big but the guys got a knife or a gun or you know because i know you get to people get to that point where they feel like they're invincible

you're a teenager and you think that you get to oh well if i get into a car accident i'll just brace myself like what you whoa you know then you get older and you realize my god the kind of things you were doing when you were younger it's like yeah and how old were you at that point in your 20 early 20 ones i was about 22 years old man at that time you know I was a lot to go through at 21. Yeah, I just thought at that point, when I got better, I met this girl named Olga, Olga Figueroa, and I kind of fell in love with her, you know,

kind of fell in love with a Spanish girl. And I got us a place on McDala Avenue in Brooklyn, and she had two kids already, Johnny and Keisha. She had two kids already. Now, I didn't have any kids. You know what I'm saying? And I have no kids, but she had two.

But she was just beautiful, Hispanic woman. I was like, oh, my God, this woman is gorgeous. And we moved in together. And things were good for a while. You know, I wasn't, Jimmy was giving me money and I wasn't doing anything for a while. But when I got real, when I got better, I mean, real better.

and I wanted to get back to work. I just told her that I'm a balancing at a club in Manhattan. She didn't really know what I was doing. I said I had bounced in Manhattan. But I was actually, at that point, we had the F-trade that was right in front of our home on McDonnell Avenue, the F-Train.

And I would just go downstairs, get on the F-Train, and go straight to 14th Street to the club. And that's what I was doing every night. but she got kind of wise because I was putting a lot of money. Remember, remember drop ceilings? Drop ceilings? We had to drop ceiling in our, in our bedroom,

and she would see me going up into it all the time, and I'd get a box, and she went in there one day and discovered a lot of fucking cash. Right. A lot of cash. And when I got back to the house, we sat down, and she goes, what are you doing? How much are they paying you?

You know, what are you doing? And I told us, I said, look at me. I said, look, I'm doing a lot of protection. I protect everybody at the club. I'm making a lot of money. And then I got to a point where, listen, it's none of your fucking business, okay? That's the point that I got there.

There's none of your business. I'm paying the fucking bills here, okay? I'm taking care of your kids. That's the attitude that I got. If you don't like it, go live with your mother. That's the way I started treating her. Yeah. That's not a way.

winning, that's not a winning relationship, uh, no, uh, strategy, by the way. No, no, it's not. It's not. And so again, uh, something, something bad happened again. Um, I was at this, uh, stuff at this bodega. You know, bodegas, right? Yeah. He was on, uh, gosh, he was at on, um, Church Avenue in Brooklyn. And I got out of the car. I was with a guy named John. And, and a matter of fact, Joe was there too. Joey was there. And we've been drinking or whatever. I wasn't heavily fucked out. But there was a bunch of aspartics outside the store. And I know that store sells drugs. There's this guy that worked that, his name was chicky. He had one eye. He had one eye.

It was a glass eye, whatever. Because every time he fucking look at you, it looks like he's looking in the other fucking boy. I used to make fun. But what I'm coming out. But what I'm coming out, out the store and we went to buy some beer i'm coming out of the store when the spanish guy says something to me and he looked kind of familiar to me you know and he says something i said won't you speak fucking english what the fuck you're talking about and uh the crazy thing was everything happened so fast um he came towards me and i yelled out to to to to the guys and we're fighting we're fighting in front of the fucking store and we'll whip me their ass. Next thing you know, Tiki comes running out to fucking store shooting, fucking shooting. And I started running and he's trying to aim for me

because he's hitting the cars. And he shot me in the back. And my friend, my friend Neil was there. Neil was there. Neil was there. Neil got stabbed twice. Neil got stabbed in the gut. And he got stabbed in the back because he had jumped on chicky when chicky was shooting after chicky shot me and they stabbed him twice Neil to this day to this day i still talked to Neil he had been right since that they happened to him did a history go for transfusions every few months or whatever it's all kinds of crazy shit because they when they when they when they stabbed him his intestines and everything got all fucked up they had to cut him short and all this kind of craziness.

And Neil wasn't part of what I was doing. Neil was just a friend from the street. Right. Neil wasn't involved in my chaos. That guy was one of the guys that I used to collect money from the clubs in Sunset Park because I went to quite a few clubs and he recognized me. That's what the police had told me again. That's what happened there.

What happened with those guys? The police grab them or? Well, there was charges filed. Charges were filed, and all I can say is that they found Chick-Chickey's body in a garbage container about six weeks later. Why did he shoot you? Like, why? No, I know he was, he was, you said he was trying. Why not the other guy?

Yeah, he knew who I was and he never liked me and never liked him because I know that he sold drugs to kids and shit. you know what i'm saying i wasn't with that drug shit he knew who i was and those were people that were his friends they were his friends so when that shit when i started whooping their ass you know he ran out with the fucking gun yeah well that makes that makes sense if they were together he knew them the police uh the police came to question me about his death you know they you know they you know they thought i have some involvement with it or something and uh you know which i didn't and uh He won't be missed. That's all I could say about him.

He won't be missed. I understand. But at that point, when I was in a hospital, I went to Ma'amadhi's hospital at that time, the Jewish hospital. And my girlfriend, Aldo, came up to see me. And she said to me, I'll never forget this. I wrote this in my book. She said to me, I wish you would die already because I'm tired of worrying about you.

She said that to me. And when she said it to me, did it change me a little bit? Did it work out for us? When I was shot, it was a non-threatening with a bullet went. It was non-threatening. They just took it out that evening at the hospital and had to put it in for evidence, whatever, against chicky. I think his name was Rudolph's something's real name. I don't remember.

But everybody called him chicky. To this day, I don't even know when they called him fucking chicky, but I know he was a drug dealer, but I was fine. But Neil, he stayed in the hospital for like two months. He was in pretty bad shit. I go visit him, and then I get into arguments with his father and stuff like that. You know, you don't need to be around my son and shit like that, whatever, you know, all that kind of bullshit, whatever. I love Neil, you know. To this day, he's not.

he's not even you want to hear the crazy thing this is a crazy thing Neil became a fucking corrections officer he became a crazy officer in Rikers Island I'd see him there when I get arrested

you know what I'm saying he'd bring me extra stuff and cigarettes totally whatever he'd do that for me but yeah to this day he's just what

what fuck Neil up mostly was the 14 years is that he more a kid fucking ripe his island because when I talk to him you know he's just he lives back in the day he always was back to that day Tommy if we'd have done this that night if we'd have done whatever he's always living in I try to say you know Neil it's old just to get it but he's not he's not yeah he's not all claimant full deck anymore you know but I still call him occasionally just a check on him you know just to check on him but again got out of the hospital I was only a hospital for like three days and I went to see Jimmy

and things were changing for Jimmy. AIDS came out. Aides and it affected the S&M close. In the mid to late 80s? Yes, yes, yes, yes. And that was a big change. And I remember this very, very clear. When Jimmy used to meet with the bosses, right,

there's this restaurant that was on the corner of 14th student night after the clubs across the street and there's this restaurant a dive bar took up the whole corner you can actually smoke in a fucking restaurant at that time right because jimmy was a fucking chain smoker and he drank scotch all the time and we would sit there and we would talk he's waiting for the bosses to come talk to him and he's telling me tell me he's you need to i want to go to california do you want to come with me oh i got to get he was like he was scared it was like he was scared. And I'm like,

I mean, Juni said, what's going on? Things are changing. You know, things are changing, you know, this 80s thing

and all this, whatever. Business is slow. He's not earning. He's not making enough money for them and they're all that happy with him and all this kind of shit, you know?

And, uh, I knew something was wrong. You know, um, here's the thing. Of course, being African American,

I'm not going to, be a made guy and all of that loudest that that's not happening that's that never even crossed my mind i just wanted to earn money and try to save money and try to do better of my life i started changing a little bit i don't want to do this anymore i've been wounded so many times i'm like they're going to kill me they're going to kill me that's what's going to happen bottom line to that is one day the uh uh uh uh i made a collection i made a collection of his Italian guy in Brooklyn,

Italian guy. I'm gonna say his name. He was a connected guy, right? He didn't have the money on him that evening. So I took everything that he had. Took all his jewelry and I took his fucking car. Right? Next thing that I knew,

I was arrested. I got arrested. They came for me. And they put me in cuffs. They said, Tom, you have no clue where you fuck with West night. and I said, what are you talking about? Of course, I got a contact with Jimmy, got an attorney, all this kind of shit. Jimmy told me not to worry about it, right?

But they charged me with a strong armed robbery and a few other counts of strong armed robbery that people called in about. Now, when people, listen, when people don't have the money to pay me that they're supposed to pay, right? I'll take something off their person right there.

or I'll take their keys to their car, you know. And plus, I went to a lot of meat stores on Flatbush Avenue, meat stores. There's a lot of meat stores on Flatbush Avenue. And I was going in there, taking meat, and I was making them paying me for protection. A few of these people, Jimmy had locked out a few of the meat places there, but I went out on my own and I did a few other things on my own as well. You know, so my world started to collapse. and I was facing time and the judge told me that

he's going to give me 4 to 12 Okay What did your lawyer say The lawyer said I had multiple multiple charges It's a lot more They're going to say

Are these guys I mean Like are these people like If you go to trial Like they'll show up Oh yeah So I'm going to Well, some of them won't.

Right. Hey, Jimmy, this is the bottom line. Jimmy actually came with me and we spoke to the attorney ourselves. And they knocked it down to two to four. You know what I'm saying? I could be out within two years. So I'd say. If I behave yourself.

If I behaved myself. I took it. Right. I took it. Where'd you go? I went to Rikazil of C-74. So you got to understand something. When they arrested me and they.

They held me without bond. I was fighting the case. This was going on for a while because I didn't want to do fucking 12 years, right? So we were fighting the case, trying to get them, the district attorney to, you know, they tried to get me for racketeering as well. You know, Rico, they wanted to get me for big stuff and make me a federal, make a federal, you know. So we wheeled and dealed, and I got to say, Jimmy and to this day, Jimmy stuck it through with me and helped me with money, attorneys and stuff, and

was knocked out to four years. Now, when I was in C-74 on Rikers Island, fighting my case, that's where I'm not, time I went by and I haven't seen Neil. I haven't hung out with Neil for a while. I stayed away from them, you know, time went by, a couple of, I was doing my own thing, and I see him in a fucking uniform at the fucking jail. I'm not kidding. I'm not making this shit up.

Were you, is that like, you start laughing or you just, how's that? How did that work? Like, makes the emotions, you know. He doesn't want to, as an officer, it's not like he wants to be like, hey, bro, what's going on? Like, he pulled me out of line in the, in the hallways. He made us not supposed to talk with each other when they're walking, when the guards. He'll pull me out to the side and said, Tommy, what's going on? tongue where what's going on with what dorm I was in whatever he says okay just just be cool just

be cool I'll come up there and I'll see it that's what he said to me and I'm back about my business because I was going to chow you know what I'm saying I was like I said there was a damn good I guess somebody could bring me some shit you know what I'm saying and then uh after I made the plea deal with them they sent me up to a place called the they say they say you can do a shot treat a shot camp I said what the fuck is that he says you can do the shock camp you could be out in, I think, six to eight months. It didn't work. I went to the shot camp.

I was getting a lot of fights. I was fighting. What was that? That's like a boot camp, right? Where it's like, it was a boot camp. Yeah, it was like a boot camp. But I got to, I'm going to tell you a little story of what happened on Rikers Island. Okay.

I was in C-74, and the builder was infested with bloods and crips. Okay, these black gang. Bloods and Cups. Okay. They wanted me to get to join up with them, to be in the gang, the bloods and the crypt. I had a cellmate. This is kind of funny. His day was black because this motherfucker was black as the ace of fucking spades. Okay. He's a black motherfucker. I mean, black like this. And they called him black. I wanted to make my time easy while I was there waiting to be sent up state. So I took a job in a visiting room, you know, the VI route, called it the VI room. And I was handed out the orange

Now, at that time, in C-74, you can wear your civvies in jail, but when you go to on a visit, you have to put on the orange jumpsuit. They got to reverse, but that's the way they fucking do it there at that time. You put out the orange jumpsuit for your visits, okay? And so they were bringing in drugs from the visiting room, the inmates. Check this shit out. It was so simple, right? This is in 1990, 1992.

to the civilians were in the visiting road and it were garbage cans all around before they had to go to the matter detector and be searched. They were dropping their drugs in the garbage pill. Yes, it was cleaning the garbage pails. Yeah, right. The fucking inmates.

It was, they'd go get the dope, stuffing up their ass, and go back into the, you know, to the, to the VI room, whatever. I found out what they were doing in there and they wanted me to partaking that shit. the bloods and I told them fuck you I getting involved in that shit and they and uh one of them called me a white boy

because of the way I talk he said you're a white boy you need to sound black though and this guy must have been about five foot six right telling me these shit and meanwhile yeah like I don't know 10 or 15 guys whatever the case but he's telling me there's this fucking little guy telling me these shit and I and I and I had it out with them right there right the other spot you know a small fight broke out at that point, and the officer said, I'll give you 60. Give us a minute to fight.

And I tore up some ass. I tore up some fucking ass there. I got kind of cut up and whatever, but I tore some ass up. But I couldn't go back to the fucking upper to my, to the dorm. I couldn't go back there because the cat was out of the back. In other words, what happened was when, when, When I did want to help them bring the drugs in, they threatened me. And they threatened me, say, go on, go back to yourself.

We're going to kill you when you get back there. That's what they're telling me. So I was like, damn, we had that fight. The officers, see, the officers knew that I wasn't down with that. They knew who I was and how I was. Tony ain't down with that little gang bullshit, whatever. You know, he's a bigger than that, right? And I said to myself, you know what?

I know exactly what the fuck I'm going to do. I said, I'm going to talk to the warden. I want to talk to the warden. I dropped the dime. Right. Hands for it. I said, listen, I'll tell you how these guys are getting the fucking drugs in there

if you transfer to me. He said, tell me how I said, no, transfer me first, trace me out of this fucking building, get my shit, and then I'll tell you, he did that. The warden,

let me tell you something. The warden knows each and every fucking inmate. I ain't bullshit. They fucking know who's who and what's what. They know all that shit. And when I went to his fucking office, he did call me Harding. He called me a Hardy all the time.

Harding, I'm a chance for you. They transferred me within the hour I was out of that building and they sent me to OBCC, this other building. The warning from that building came over to talk to me and I told them how they were getting the drugs at. The next day, they raided and arrested

everybody. And they came to tell me, and they thanked me. They thanked me for dropping the fucking diet. Right. And then two days later, I was transferred upstate. I was happy that fucking man you know

that shackle fucking six hour fucking drive you gotta make sure you don't have to take a double pee whatever before you get on that fucking bus

trying to eat a baloney sandwich fuck man yeah it was horrible but it was also a good thing because better food

you don't have people that just came right off the street you know yeah you and I the whole time I was you know locked up in the Marshall's holder, like everybody kept saying,

man, I just want to get sentenced to go to prison. And I used to think prison, like, that's where it's really bad. And they're like, bro, you get ice cream. I like, you know, you're like, you're like, you're getting to a good routine. You can go work out. You can be outside. You can. Exactly.

Because they sent me to the shock incarceration camp first upstate, and they said you could be out in eight months. I got into too many fights over there. And then they said, well, you got to go back to real jail and finish off his house and send me to fucking real jail because that shock incarceration shit and motherfuckers yelling in my face and shit. I was like, get the fuck out of here.

Me, fuck you. He was calling my mother a whore and shit. And then I, you know, they were trying to put me on charges because I punched the guard because you call my mother a whore. He said, where's your mother a whore, a junkie, all this shit? I wouldn't happen to shit. You know, and they put me in a fucking, the bang, you know, the bang up there.

Without a box. Oh, yeah, the shoe. Yeah, special housing, whatever. Yeah, special. I was there a lot, man. I was just, I was very angry. And, you know, then all of a sudden I find out that Jimmy got killed. It was reversed.

Yeah, he got murdered. Yep. Do you think we could be owed money for? This day, to this day, Matt, I don't. The only thing that I can think of, honestly, the only thing that I could possibly think of is that they killed Jimmy because they didn't need him anymore and he knew too much. And I thought that was going to happen. Jimmy wanted me out because Tommy, you got to get out because, first of all, you know, they'll kill you first.

You know, Jimmy would tell me this all, but we're sitting down as Jimmy loves to drink, have his coffee, have his scotch, his cigarette. And he was a 70s type of guy. And he would just say, Tommy, we got to get out of us. They're going to kill us. We got to get out of us. We've got to change our lives. You know what I'm saying? And I have listened to him sometimes, you know.

And when I found out that he died, I was sad as a motherfucker, man. I actually cried. I did, man. I was sad because, to me, and the way that he died, they found him in a chunk of a car that's been there. I don't know, he must have been dead for a couple months in the car, maybe a month or two. I never, you know what, I really hated? I never met anybody from his family you know

he only had this girlfriend a young girl actually because Jenny at that time was in his 50s and his girlfriend was like 26 or something and I went to see her when I initially got back out but yeah that was a hard time for me because he treated me good

and he made he told me that you know my mother was didn't need to be treated like that from the father And Jimmy didn't like, Jimmy did that like the way that my father was, obviously. And let me tell you sometimes. I think Jimmy thought us sometimes about having him killed or something. I'm not kidding you because when Jimmy would start thinking about my father

and the way they was treating us, and I stopped telling Jimmy what was going on in my house because I didn't put him to kill my father, you know, because Jimmy knew people that would do shit like that. You know what I'm saying? But part of me left that thing. And that was when I said that was enough. So when they let me out, they let me out

in 1993, the end of 1993, and I was supposed to report to my parole officer. I don't know why the fuck I did this shit. I don't know. I was angry. Did a report? No, I didn't even fucking show up. I didn't, fuck it.

I went out and I hung out with my friends and I got drunk and party with some girls. A few days after that, The address that I used was my mother's address, the house that actually, the department that actually got for her, the police came looking for me, the parole officer came looking for me and my mother at that time, here's the crazy thing. My sister got herself clean, Renee got herself clean, and she moved to a place called Fable, North Carolina. I'd never been to North Carolina. And my mother went to Favell North Carolina because she got sick a little

but she got sick and they were gone and I said to myself I called my mom I said mom I'm coming to North Carolina because I'm on the run now I'm on the run so I left towards the end of 1993

and I ended up in a place called Fayville, North Carolina where Fort Bragg was never been there I took the fucking Amtrak train and I got off in this town I was like what the fuck is this it was like now you know how grand central station is in new york city

thousands of people trades everything i get off in this one gas station fucking town fayb i'm like this is pershing you know and i never ever ever ever my life lived in a trail i didn't even know where a fucking trailer was until i went to my sister's house and she was literally a single wide trailer with my mom and then i had to find something to do but am i got to do that? What am I going to do now? I was on the run. I started bouncing clubs out here. I'm not in North Carolina now. I'm in Texas, but I started bouncing clubs, strip bars, and I'm a one of a fugitive. Okay, I'm a one fucking fugitive, and I'll tell nobody who I am nothing, zero nothing. And that was really good. I was getting paid good money. I was fucking rolling.

People liked me. I was like, oh man, this is that guy that called me New York. I said, don't call me New York. I said, don't call me New York. Because my accent, they'll start calling me New York. said, don't come me New York. You call me Tommy. Just call me Tommy, North New York, right? And these were going good. These were going great.

It's been five years. We're in 1998. Five years past that I'm on a fusion. Five years. I'm in 1998. I get myself involved with one of the dances at the club. My name is Marion. German chick, right? And I'm banging. A hot chick. I'm banging her.

One day she comes to me and says, I'm pregnant. I say kick the fuck for real holy shit you want an abortion nope she wasn't having that so she was fucking pregnant man she was pregnant now here's another story that I gotta tell you about

something that that that involves my brother violus my brother veto he's still in jail right now he's been in there for 22 years oh yeah he's going to know what yeah what happened was to make a long story sure because my shit is long is if I have to take hours and hours

for me to get into all of this. I met this woman I met this woman in the Fayville, North Carolina prior to Mary. Her name is Billy. Billy was a madam. Heerica.

She was a madam. She had multiple escort services. Okay? And she was a German chick. And she ran her shit like a well-willed fucking machine. She had a beautiful home. She had a nail

a couple of mail attending salons in town she had money and she wanted and I wanted to date this girl and I did I dated her and and the bottom line to that was I would see how operation was working

she was running she was laundering the prostitution money through the fucking salon she was running it through the salons right I would call her and they would use the credit cause to charge it but she would charge to ultimate concepts, the fucking goddamn nail salons,

but it was a prostitution call. That's how she was laundering of fucking money. Right. These guys didn't even get in trouble with their wife because they were question, what were you doing that ultimate concepts? Oh, I was getting my, my nails done all, kind of. Oh, Tanny. She had tanning there too as well.

And masseuse, they and massage stuff there and all that kind of shit. So me and I hit off and I moved in with her and we dazed for a while. And I still was bouncing at clubs. And that's when I met Mary. And I was banging Mary and banging her at the same, banging the other girl at the same time. That's how I was. Sue me.

That's how it was. I was just, I was a dog. You know? Billy found out about Marion and wanted me out of the house. You know, so the party was old. But something happened. Something bad tragically happened. A little later.

But I'm trying to narrow it down. So you were saying Marion got pregnant. Yeah, yeah, with my daughter. My daughter, she's 24. Actually, I spoke to my daughter over there. She's 24 right now. And I didn't want to be with Mary. I didn't want nothing.

I didn't want to be with the, you know, I didn't want to be with her. So I tried to do the right thing. Yeah, I got us in the part, man. I tried to do the right thing. I just couldn't stand her. She got on my fucking nerds, okay? I just don't want to be with her, right?

So I went back again, I was bouncing, I went back again with, with Billy, and I was working, I went back to the clubs, I'm working the clubs, and one night, this guy approaches me, his name is Troy Thompson, and he asks him, he's been watching me work all the time, and I wrote about this in my book, he says to me, hey man, would you, how much they pay you here? and I said, you know, about $250 a night. He says, I'll double that if you come work with me. And so what do you do? He goes, I'm a bail boss, man.

I'm looking for some skips, and I can use it cut your size. Nice. That's what changed my old life when we had that conversation. That changed my whole life. And he doesn't run you. He doesn't run you to see if you were. Wow. No, he didn't.

No, but this is what happened. This is what happened. I go back to fucking, I go back to fucking. I go back to Marion's house to get stuff or whatever and she had to go to the store she had to go to the store so I got in the car with her to go to the store

the next thing you fucking know we're bombarded by police cars I mean they just fucking got us they rolled in on me guns pointed out and all this stuff and she's crying I said bitch you turn me in? No that's their her. They're there for her, right? No, they were there for me. Oh, really? They were there for me

because he pulled up my shirt and saw my name on my chest and said, there's Tommy Arnie. He pulled this up. He said, there's Tommy Arne. That's him right there. And they put me in handcuffs and they arrested me. And they took me to Columbia County Jail and Fayette. I was on the ride for five years. They called me in 1998. Transcend me back to Rikers Island. They flew me, these fucking cops flew me to fuck in New York. Well, how did they get you? Who turned you in? Like how they got me because of what happened was Billy that owned the escort service,

my brother Miodas came down, right? My brother Miodas came down. He opened up an escort service himself. And he was doing a lot of illegal activity. They surveillanced his house. I went to his house. They took pictures of me. And they ran me.

They found out they had warrants. I'm one of the New York. Okay. And that's how I wound up. But that did me a favor, man. That cleared everything up. I went to, they took me back to New York City. I went back to fucking, they put me a C95 this time.

C95. I stayed there. I was there for about, the FBI questioned me. You were questioning me about homicides, Jimmy, fucking all this shit. I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know anything

I don't know they even question me again about chickies, dad all this kind of fucking shit and one thing I'll say if you just keep your mouth shut you'll stay to fuck out of trouble

right that's what Jimmy always just tell me don't say nothing I never said anything and it kept me there for like a fucking year dude until they just had to release you, they let me go

they let me go towards 2000 they let me go they let me go man So what did you, can you go back? I went back to fucking Fayette in North Carolina. But when I was in jail, I was in contact with Billy. Billy came to visit me.

She flew to fucking, Brick's Island, to visit me. And she was sending me money. So she used my girlfriend. And all that time that happened, my daughter was born in 1999. My daughter, Portia, was born in 1999. So I went back to Billy Salas and Fayette, though. I made contact with Marion. I said, I'm going to see my daughter.

And she had no problem with me. She says, you can come out and see your daughter. And so Billy's telling me, you can go see your daughter. I trust you. So I go to see my daughter. And of course, she's an infant. And it was nice seeing her. And Marion, Mary comes out like she wants me to fuck her.

Right. And I said, no, fuck that. I'm not, no, no, thank you. No, no. I just want to see my daughter. That's it. And from that point on, you know, I just was with Billy until, and then, now we're getting to the stuff in the book.

When I was staying with Billy, I had to find something else to do. I got back in contact with Troy Thompson, the Bell, the Bell, the Bell, Bobzman. And I went to his office and I happened to meet somebody named Brian and Crystal that were with him also and Troy. And his wife, Jennifer, all for these people. And they all took a liking to me. And we were going over cases. And I was like, oh, man, I don't have, I don't go through cases.

I've got through my whole fucking life and out of do all that shit. You know, the mugshot, you know, the people that they're involved with, the family members, all this kind of shit. And let me tell you something, that we went on a hunt and we arrested somebody. But here's the thing. My first, I'll never forget my first and I'll never forget my last. All the ones about three, I can't remember. We were looking for this black guy

in favor of North Carolina. His bond was about $50,000. And they told me to give me $1,500. He said, you give me $1,500 for this shit. Fuck, yeah. I said, we're out by the house and we're looking at the house. Wait, we have to make sure we confirm it's in.

We don't want to grab somebody that's not in. Right. So what we did was, we couldn't tell it was kind of dark. I said, I'm going to get out. Because they know what Troy looks like because Troy's going to have gone in the middle. I said, I'm going to walk by him. And if that's him, I'm going to grab him.

Okay? So I get out the car and I make myself nonchalad, and I come all the way around, and he's out there talking to two other people. And I knew it was fucking hit. He had this little tattoo, a big X on his head. At that point, I just grabbed him.

I fucking yolped him down to the fucking ground. Scared the hell of the other two guys. They just put the fucking hands up like this. Troy and Chris and ran from across the street. Guns out. they didn't know where the fuck we were and we put him in handcuffs I pulled them up

and that was him trust that's him and that was the first one the guy I've ever arrested as being a bounty hunter and it was the last one so how long did the bounty hunter thing last or that lasted like 14 years oh my God

I did that for 14 years so why did it out what happened was I got so good added, I went to New Jersey. I wanted to learn more about this, right? So I took a tracing course in New Jersey and they licensed you in New Jersey. And that's where I got this. See that behind me? Yeah. See that behind me on the wall? Yeah, I saw. I saw that. It's a badge, the handcuffs, and the ID of B. When I took that class, that's the badge that I used for 14 years

as a bounty hunter. And those are the very same handcuffs that I'd never lost since I've been doing that job. Never lost my handcuffs. It didn't matter that you were a felon, but you can't have a gun, right? No, I can't have a gun, but I carried one anyway. I travel. Listen, let me say, I'm going to be honest with you. I worry about this in my book. I'd rather be a judge by 12 than carried by 6. Right.

Okay? Because a lot of times, you got to say, I'm And when I took that course, I took this course, it was like a two-week course out in New Jersey about tracing, about all kinds of ways to get into a house and all kinds of shit finagle on the follows at that time, whenever. And I was really good. I got so good, I didn't need Troy anymore. I didn't need Crystal or Brian. I formed my own crew and I got myself licensed through the insurance company itself because they knew that I was the one that was doing the pickups. I was covering their ass. So I got a contract. When I got the contract, they were sending me the skips to my house. Right. Fucking thick envelopes, cases to work. And every case that I worked,

I made sure that I made a deal with the certain bond person, the bonds person that owned that did. I would take 10 to 15% of the bond if I capture the individual and do an off bond. I got really good at it. Half of this, the sheriffs out here in the North Carolina, they knew who I was. They knew I was the next con and they were loving me for bringing these motherfuckers to their jail. They let me sign off bond myself and I wasn't even a bail bondsman. I was just a licensed bounty on up there. I was not a dog bondsman. In the state of North Carolina, only a bail bondsman can do what's called a surrender and an off bond. They will let me do it. because I'm getting these guys

that they couldn't catch. And it just blew up. It got old big. Why did you stop doing that? They're still, they still have criminals. Criminals are still running away. Well,

I'm going to tell you something. This book, if you're reading my book, I'm going to give you a copy of my book. You got to read my book. All right. They want to give you everything. Book,

one of the reasons why, I'll tell you now, one of the reasons why I gave it up. There was a ton of, in my life, I just said, I never got my education, Matt. Okay, I never finished school, never with the college, never did any of that shit, because my dad was a drunk. I had a crazy life as a teenager. I've been in Judy halls, jails, all that stuff, and I wanted to focus on myself. So what I, what happened was after I broke off with Bonnie, I mean Billy, and broke off

with Marion, I was on my own, was on my own, was by myself. And then I met this woman by the name of Susan, Susan Belly. I could say that, Susan Belly. And she had a club in Fayetteville, and we just was friends. We weren't into me. We were just friends. And she was telling me this story about this little boy, a nephew. She was saying, yeah, Tommy, she's a real country, too.

I can't do her accent, but she's real country. And she was like, well, my doubt. A daughter in Laos, stuff like that, had this little boy born. He was born as a child that was addicted to crack. He was born. His mother, Sherry, was a crack user. And the father was a drug user. And the boy was born on that stuff.

They were making sure that he didn't have any problems from being born on that. You know? And she managed to get parental rights to go to court for them. Because he didn't want, she, Susan didn't want that little boy to be raised by that because they were on drugs. So she took them to court. She won that first battle. And then I happened to meet her.

And then she told me about the little boy. And I said, can I meet this little boy? Because it reminded me of, I don't know, I want to meet this little boy. And his name was Nikki. I said, I got to meet this little boy. and a couple of days go by I told her to meet me at the park this park that's in Fayetteville

and she came to the park and Nikki was two years old when I first met him and I don't want to get ulterior eye and stuff right but when she brought the little boy to the park and I saw him as the cutest fucking little thing I've ever seen in my life and he was coming into this world

he didn't ask to be addicted to that stuff he didn't ask for these these parents that they give a shit about him. So, so I was playing with him in a park and I asked him, hey, can you, can you, can you meet me again a couple of days? So now, I want to, I want to, I want to, I want to teach how to write a little bite. I want to do these days with him. I'm going to do stuff with him. And I kept doing more stuff with him, more stuff

with him. I get him a basketball, this and that, whatever. And the next thing you know, I told her, I said, a couple of months gone by, I said, you want to move in with me? Let's, let's race this kid. Let's raise this boy. I want to raise this kid. And she thought I was crazy. She thought I was insane.

I said, no, I want to raise this kid. And I want to protect him. I, my job from that point on was to raise that little boy and make sure no fucking harm comes in. He's not going to end up like me. Okay? That's what I, there was a promise to myself. Me and Susan, we got a, we got a house. but we weren't together.

You got to stand. We were not together. We were not incident. I just wanted to raise this kid, just little boy. And me and her went back and forth to court to get those parental rights

taken away from the parents, which we were successful because I helped pay for the attorneys and stuff. We were successful. We got their parental rights taken away and me and Susan adopted.

Now, I'm sorry. So hold on a second. You got to see this. Now, a little bit. I got a second. This is Nikki. He's 18 years. He's 19 years old now. He's going to college. This is my son, Nicholas. And he just graduated high school and the college just won him all over North Carolina because of his football status. and his GPA is incredible that's my son

that I adopted that's why I stopped bounty hunting I went back to school I got a grant I went back to school I took my GDD I passed my GEDD in 2013 after I said I wanted more

after I got my GED I wanted to go to college I said what I'm going to do at college What do I like? What am we going to do in college? Oh, I love cars and motorcycles. So I took the automotive program and I got my associate's degree in automotive technology and I walked across the stage with my son in the audience and a cap and a gown and a graduated college. Yep, that's what happened with Nicholas and me.

Susan actually meet her. When Nikki got old enough, she got her own place. I got my own place. And now we share him. Like she called for you all the time. Oh, Nikki, actually right now, Nicky's in the Bahamas right now. He's in the Bahamas because we got him, uh, his friends from school's senior class. We paid for his way to go to the Bahamas.

And he's having a blast right now. So, yeah. That's why I stopped outing on because I wanted to be, I wanted to get my education. And I opened up a business. I opened up a car business. in North Carolina. Mechanics? Yeah, I had a shop and I was selling cars and I saw a lot of cars,

they're selling cars, bikes, parts, you name it. I had a house out in Lovinton, North Carolina, and I had it all, I mean, it was great. And I had so many cars and I didn't know what to do with them, you know. And then I decided one day I had to write my story. So I wrote It took me about seven years Seven years to To write this

Right It took seven years to write it But here's the crazy thing When I finished writing it I didn't do anything I let it sit For 15 years Bernie of mine

In Florida named Lorenzo Wunias He's a promoter out there He does shows and stuff You know big time shows and I went out there to see a show and we're hanging out in his office and I think I told you this

we're hanging out in his office and we just started talking small talk and I said yeah man I wrote my life because Lorenzo knew about my life I was a criminal, he knew all that stuff and I said I wrote about it he just really? I said yeah I wrote about it

he says Tom did anybody read it I said I read it a couple of times just can I read it? I said I was like I don't know I don't know if I'm going to anybody read it because it wasn't for anybody. He wasn't supposed to be for anybody. It was for my own sanity.

I loved Lorenzo. So I said, I'll put it on the disc and our sanity. A couple months later, Lorenzo calls me, and he says, Tom, we got to print this. You can't keep to see yourself. You got to print this. And I said, really? He says, yes.

He says, I'll pay for it. Okay? But you're going to hold me, you're going to hold me one. Like, well, you wanted me to pay it forward, you know? Right. Somebody do something. And I said, go read it. Read it.

Tell me what you think. You know, and he read it, loved it. And then a couple of months later, again, it took about seven months, eight months. And he got in contact with me and it was, he says, when's your birthday? I said, my birthday is March the first. He goes, I'm going to have a present for you on your birthday. He sent me this on my birthday when I turned 60. I had nothing to do with the name.

Okay. I mean is Harding. Yeah. Are you not? So he went, he says, hey, I got something perfect for it. He says, hope you love it. And there you go. I got a book.

And then everything started to change. My life started changing again. You know? Try to hold it up right now. So if I'm not. You go to a, I sent you the link for www.tommyharding.co. Oh, it's not hard, it's not hardening. No, no.

Okay, so I'm buying. So the Shopify. Just go www. Tommy Harding. Dot.com. Okay, it's not on Amazon? Yeah, it's on Amazon, but Amazon, uh, what a, what a, what a, what a cost a lot. and I'd rather do it this way where I make more money.

Right. Oh, yeah. We'll put the, we can put the, um, the, um, the, well, I mean, I'm just trying to pull it up on Amazon. You're giving me another, you're asking. A lot of people have problems looking it up on Amazon, but you can get it right. It is on Amazon. But Shopify is, uh, where I got it right now.

I'll send you the link for, or do what it's at on Amazon if you want. Okay. I'll send you both. But like I said, I prefer to use Shopify. Yeah, yeah, it came up. It came up. It came up because I just put in your whole name.

Yeah. Instead of just the last name. So yeah, it. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. Look at that. Like I said.

So with that. Go to Shopify, I sign them. See, you give it from Amazon, then that sign. Right. My spot on Shopify, I sign every book. Well, I mean, then give me that link if you want to give me that link. Yeah, I'll send you. I'll send you that link instead because I sign all of those books.

And things started changing. When the book came out, I got these movie people, want to talk to me. I got the freaking mayor, the mayor in Fayetteville, off Carolina, got a copy of my book. And he contacted me, and he wanted me to help with the gang problems in Fayetteville. So I went to City Hall. It's going to be in the documentary. I went to City Hall and I spoke before the city council and trying to let them know the best way to have to save kids.

Mostly of them are African-American children that are forgotten about out there. Seriously, you know what I'm saying? So I spoke to, I went to a bunch of churches. I spoke at churches, you know, I tried to help, so I'll paint it for it as my friend, Lorenzo wanted me to, but I'm finding that it's bigger than Lorenzo is bigger than me. You follow what I'm saying? Where? And now I'm starting to get to a point where I'm going to be, you know, trying to get my story mob out there. That's my main, my main thing. About any other stuff, that's all good while I find. It opens the door for other things.

It's great. More than me, sure, it just opens more network of people or whatever. But when I read that story about my mother's in this, right? My mother, my father, my brothers, I'm like, fuck yeah, this is, this is it. This is the story. This is it. Jimmy's in it. Everything about Jimmy is in this fucking thing. All the stuff that I told you about, what happened to me, all of this stuff is their mother, you know, about this African-American kid that got involved at an early age with gangsters, monsters, monsters, or organized crime,

whatever the hell you want to fucking call it. You know what I'm saying? Right. I grew up in Brooklyn. He grew up around white people. You know what I'm saying? There's nothing out there on Netflix like this. I took it as a test to myself

I said let me check something out Sylvester Stiloh came out with Tulsa Tulsa, okay, toss the king get the fuck out of it I saw that I couldn't believe it it was horrible and the only reason why anyone's fucking watching it is because it's Sylvester Stolo

He didn't kill anybody into the fourth episode and it really wasn't all that great it wasn't written really well Then I saw the King of Holland with the Force Whitaker Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a little bit and older one. Yeah, yeah. No, that's still new.

It's not old. It's new. Google it, Forrest Whitaker, all of something. I can't remember the name. And I saw a pilot for that. That was better than Tulsa King, but it's actually, I was never really a Forrest Whitaker fan. You know, it's hard for me to picture him as this gangster, you know, like Frank. from American gangster with Denzel Washington.

Yeah, I couldn't make, like, later, I couldn't, I wasn't buying it. You know what I'm saying? But it was more violent. And, uh, and, uh, my shit, you read my shit? Oh, I was like, I was really broke. And now I'm a movie buff and I'm a drama series buff, you know? So, uh, I'm not trying to pat myself on the back, but I am trying to pat myself on the back with this fucking, uh, uh, mob that I'm on you to read, want you to check it out.

Tell me what you think. Did you ever do an audio book? No, not yet. Not yet. Not yet. I haven't done that yet. I will be 30% of my income on the books is from Audible. No shit.

Yeah, and I didn't read it, by the way. I didn't do it. I didn't read it. Like, I'm a horrible reader, bro. Horrible. So I actually had somebody who did it, and we just worked out a deal. Like he has 50% of it.

And he took care of everything. Took the book, read the book, did a great job. It's done amazing. Put everything up. I didn't have to do anything. But, I mean, you might say, hey, I'm, I can read the book fine. I'll do the book myself, you know. Well, well, this is what I'm going to tell you because I got to be leaving shortly.

And, and, and, and, I want to tell you this, okay, to me and you. Um, I like you. Okay. I find you interesting. and there's a lot more things I want to talk to you about, okay? Because there's another story about this about my brother that's been in jail for 22 years. Something else I'm going to talk to you about that, about his case. You know what I'm saying?

Well, we could do an episode on it. Yes, yes. I want to definitely talk to you about that. And I'm going to talk to you about a few other things, too, as well. Because let me tell you something. I enjoyed telling this story to you. And, uh, you're real, you're for real. You're not, uh, you didn't get on my nerves that one fucking time. A lot of people get on my fucking nerves. Let me tell you, you, you wouldn't

trust me. A lot of people, I either like you or I don't fucking like you. There's no in between with me. Well, yeah, we'll definitely have to do another episode. We'll have to figure it out. I, I'd love to talk about the, or read the, the screenplay. Hey, I appreciate you guys watching the, uh, the interview. If you liked it, do me a, favor, hit the subscribe button, hit the bell so you get notified videos like this. Also share the videos. It really helps with the algorithm. What also helps is leaving comment and having interaction in the comment section. We're going to leave Harding, which is the book written by Tommy Harding. We're going to leave that in the, or we're going to live the link in the description

box. So definitely buy a copy of the book. I really appreciate you guys hanging out with me and see you.