Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - FBI's Most Wanted Cyber Criminal | Brett Johnson

Episode Date: November 10, 2022

Brett Johnson was a US Most Wanted cybercriminal, called the Original Internet Godfather by US Secret Service for building the first organized cybercrime community called ShadowCrew, which was the precursor to today's dark net markets.

I'm in the grocery store one day, it just happened to walk past the magazine aisle. And I see this article about identity theft on the cover. And I'm like, huh? Might be a good article. So I open it up and it's like shadow crew. And I'm like, fuck. Hey, this is Matt Cox. And I, we are here doing an interview with Brett Johnson.

and, yeah, I've already fucked it up, but that's fine. All right, so do me a favor if you like the video, hit the subscribe button, hit the bell so you get notified of videos just like this. Leave me a comment, and I will respond to the comment, and hopefully Brett will answer some comments to and check them out. Also, Brett has a YouTube channel, and what is the name of the YouTube channel? It is the Brett Johnson Show on YouTube. It is the Brett Johnson Show, and this is one of the things that's kind of interesting is that I was number one on the secret. Well, one, I was on the Secret Service's most wanted list, which is odd. But I was also, for a period of time, for a couple of years, I was number one on the Secret Service's most wanted list.

And Brett Johnson was number one on the most wanted list, too. We're going to hear about his story. And like I said, he's got a podcast where he goes over, mostly cybercrimes and stuff, right? Cybercrime, security, how to become this better guy, because I'm still trying to learn how to be healthy in life. Okay. So that's the same, podge of bullshit. So that's the same kind of thing, too. it's funny because people watch this show and they're always like they're always like um they'll always

say like oh you're inspiring and and and amazing and this and that and like i'm like i'm not i'm just trying to i'm just trying to be a decent human being like but for some reason that's inspiring and and you know what that's um i'm glad you said that because i get a lot of that man and i just don't understand it because i'm like hey i'm just trying to go through this damn journey right now yeah yeah um okay so uh so yeah check it out and uh we're gonna start with the uh Oh, oh, Patreon. Hit my Patreon up. I got a Patreon and, you know, it's like, you know,

Connor and Colby and, you know, these guys aren't free. So hit me up. And yeah, I appreciate it. And here's the, here we're going to start the interview. One of the things, can I ask you a question real quick before we get into it? Because this is a question I get all the time. I want to know how you answer it. Well, I've got multiple questions.

I get all that thing. Come on shoot them out, man. You know what I'm saying? Like, these are the questions people ask me. And, and people always look shocked when I answer them. And I always think, oh, that's the wrong answer. Like, that's not what they expected. So one of those is, do you ever think about committing fraud? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, if people ask me that, I'm like, every single day. Dude, pandemic, it was like, shit, that's some money. You know, it's like, damn. I'll see a real estate commercial where they're buying real estate site unseen. And I'm like, oh, stop it, bro, stop. What are you doing? Like, oh, God, dear God, what are you doing, man?

What's happening? Well, that criminal mindset never leaves. It never leaves. It's always there. So I am asked that. I'm also asked, would I ever commit a crime again? Right. And they, you know, news or whoever's asking that wants you to say no.

And the answer is not no. It's never no for me either. That's right. It's like, you know, I'm recovering. The longer I go without committing a crime, the chances are I'll keep going. But right now, I'm just recovering from all this bullshit. I actually told my probation officer. Well, I've actually told several people.

Did you take ARDAP? Yes, I took Ardap. Okay. I almost caused a riot at Fort Worth Prison taking Ardap. So I've told the doctor that was running the program this, and I told my probation officer, I was like, yeah, yeah, I know I'm going to bust my ass. I'm going to get a job. I'm going to bust my ass for the next year, hopefully pull some shit together, get myself on my feet.

And I kept saying, I guess I said a year too many times. And she goes, well, what happens if it takes longer than a year? And I go, if it takes longer than a year? And she goes, yeah, I go, if I'm, if in a year from now, I'm living in someone's spare room, I'm taking the bus to work, I can barely pay my bills like that. And she goes, yeah, I said, I go, I'm going to commit a massive, massive fraud. That's what I was about to say. Then fuck it, balls of the wall at that point.

Yeah, if I can't feed myself in a year from now, then I gave it a good shot. Okay, so that's, I mean, that is the answer, right? I mean, unless we've got, you know, I wanted to turn my life around. But if you don't have that support group, if you don't have that support group, if you don't have a way to make a living, you leave prison with the exact same tools you go in with. So you're going to do what you need to do to survive. That's a fact. So, you know, that's what the justice system and family members and friends and anyone who interviews who, they don't understand that. They're like, oh, no, no, I would never commit a crime. No, no, no. Listen, listen, you would.

And here's what I told the doctor, by the way, was I had said to her. I said, she says, well, crime is never an option. I said, listen, let's assume that your husband, leaves you for his secretary. Let's assume the economy goes south, I said, which we all know it can. And it is. Right. Well, at that time, it wasn't. I go, let's assume that I said, they don't have the budget to hire, to hire people like you at $100,000. I said, and you go out and you try and get a job in a bad economy, and you can't. You find yourself and your two kids living in your car with no support from anybody. I said, and there is a loaf of bread four feet inside of the supermarket's front door, I said, if you steal that loaf of bread, your kids live

another week. I said, you wouldn't do it? I go, the difference between you and me, I said, is my, the bar for committing crime, for me, it's just lower than yours. Right. I mean, that's everybody will do it. Everyone will do it. That's a fact. And what, so, and, of course, that's the argument. And what people don't understand is, okay, yeah, you'll steal that baloney, you'll steal that bread. But, you know, if you're going to steal baloney, shit, why would I eat baloney if I can have steak? Yeah, I don't have to If I'm willing to do this I don't have to live in my car anymore

That's exactly right My kids deserve better So here's the other question Is where And this always kills me too Is they're like Well man when you were on the run You must have been like

Were you scared all the time Were you worried? Was it horrible? And I always say And I know this is the wrong one I'm always like bro honestly Like the best The best period of my life

Was being on the run I loved to be on the run Have you read Shantaram or not? Not. No. So Indian guy, I'm sorry, Australian guy, true story, but he novelizes it. He escapes from an Australian maximum security prison. I'm sorry, New Zealand, maximum security prison, makes his way to India and starts running black markets for medical goods, everything else like that. But he talks about that escape and being on the run and how every single day was like the highest day of his life because he's free. He's beat the system again another day, everything else. And so with me, it was. I took a road trip. I did the Route 66, Christ, I spent a lot of time in Vegas, a lot of time out in L.A. But every single day, I mean, it was very lonely. But at the same time, it was like, shit, I'm beating the system every day.

And I was okay. It's just you and your wits against everything. There's no, there's nobody goes wrong. There's nobody I can call. That's it. So I've got no help. I have to figure out how to do every single thing by myself. And see, but that's the thing, right?

I mean, we, when I, that criminal mindset, we are used. to doing things on our own and we have the will to do it right and a lot of it i was i gave an interview just yesterday i forgot who i was talking to but it's just that sheer force of will that sees a lot of this stuff through yeah um okay so so let's let's rewind here where were you where were you born oh dude i'm from i'm from hazard kentucky so if you've seen the news lately all those floods uh that's the epicenter of all the floods and that's where i was born I come from from hazard it's coal country my dad was a helicopter pilot in the u.s army captain so i grew up overseas in germany throughout the 50 states things like that my dad was forced

out of the military they did a downsizing he was forced out around 78 79 becomes a coal miner and at that point in time you were paid pretty well except they were on strike all the time so it was feast and famine frequently uh my mom so my mom was just kind of a fuck addicted opiates she cheated on my dad constantly this is a woman i talked about in my presentations but no shit man she would bring men home in front of him he would sit there and cry beg her not to do it and by god she'd do it anyway have these conversations with him you know hey i'm leaving you for him and she'd get be gone a couple weeks come back and he'd take her back i mean this was my dad

He was a good guy, but, you know, if you want to call him a cuck, you can call him that. He was just overwhelmingly in love with this woman. Yeah, and he grew up in a really good family, a really good family. When he went to tell his mom, he tells me this story today. When he went to tell his mom that he was about to marry my mom, she literally passes out. And don't do it, Ray, don't do it. Not only that, but when he goes to tell my mom's dad, Paul, that he's going to marry her, Paul sits him down.

He's like, Ray Jean, if you knew what I knew, you'd take off running and you wouldn't look back. And he wouldn't listen. So he marries her. She was definitely the criminal in the family. This is a woman. She steals a Caterpillar D9 bulldozer at one point. She takes a slip and phone, a store at another. This is a woman that used to go to the drug store.

She'd get the empty capsules and fill them up with bullshit to try to sell them as speed and amphetamines or everything else. I mean, anything and everything to try to get money. My life, my first crime, I was 10. My mom had left my dad. Let's backtrack. So my dad was a good guy because I've not told this story before. But my dad was a good guy. He never really, he never really committed any crime on his own.

If my mom wanted to commit a crime, he had co-sign on to it. So, yeah, let's try that bullshit. The two times that he tries to really go in to commit a crime, the first time was, we won't do the first. time the second time he's watching 60 minutes one night and they've got a show about the miami drug trade you know they're showing the stacks of cash the tables of coke and everything else and this man is just just focused on that damn segment and we're all sitting there kind of watching it like what the hell dad and my mom's looking at my dad like ray are you okay so he gets through watching the segment turns around looks at her and he's like i think i need to go to miami and be a police

officer and she was like maybe you do and his plan was to get down to miami become a cop happen upon some drug deal someplace keep the cash they keep the drugs retire and my point was won't they just shoot your ass and he was like ah no it won't happen so they sell every single they sell everything they've got round up like i know six thousand dollars rent a yuhaw head south on i 75 end up in miami the night the 1980 riots broke out in miami that same night so city was exploding everything else my mom's like holy shit we get in a day's in right across the street from all these homeless people she's like kids don't go outside so my dad goes to cop school the first day he comes back and he's like i think it's going to be all right second day he comes back

he's like shit we got to get out of here so it turns out the miami dayed cops the real ones had burst into the training session arrested like six people without standing warrants and they all had the same idea of happening upon a drug deal and keeping the cash right so from there we had backed up i-75 they're running out of money and they decide on panama city florida because when they were kids they had spent spring break there so go there my dad the only job he could get was has a 7-11 store clerk making 140 dollars a week my mom was an lpn she gets a job in a nursing home keeps the job long enough to see my dad off to work so she can start cheating on his ass again and we slowly go broke that that's a lot of the motivation for me over the years i mean

I mean, when we were in Panama City when I was a kid, we would be without power, without water. We would literally be out in the backyard of the house we were renting, catching water in buckets so we could flush the toilet, brush her teeth, shit like that. How old were you at this point? Eight, nine. So my mom leaves my dad. I was 10, Denise, my sister was nine, moved back from, moved back to Hazard, Kentucky. And at that point, my mom was just a fuck, dude. I mean, just an abusive parent was what she was.

She would beat us, but that wasn't the worst. But the worst part was the mental and the emotional stuff. You know, she had, this is a woman who tells us, I gave up my life for you and I'm going to leave one day and never come back and you'll find me dead someplace, you know, just constantly like this. So what happens is she moves us back to Hazard, Kentucky. We're living in an apartment underneath of her parents. And they were absolutely insane too. This is her dad. We couldn't eat upstairs.

We didn't have any food. Couldn't eat upstairs because they would always, you know, tease us and talk about how poor we were. He would make sure that we, when we bathed, we were allowed a bath a week, inch and a half, two inches of water. No more than that. If he found that anymore, he'd raise absolute total hell, right? So we were living in that environment. My mom out partying all the time. Sometimes she'd take us with her, leave us in the car. We'd wait in the living room as she went in the bedroom and got it on with somebody. Most of the time, she just left us at home. And what happens is the crime, first crime ever committed. Home for a few

days, no food in the house. I'm the kid that used to, you know, I'd be scared mom wasn't coming home. That's the way I took it all. She said it. She's not going to be back. So I'd post up at the window or walk out in the driveway. Denise, nine years old, angry as shit. You know, she didn't worry about that. And to this day, Denise still has those angry issues. But my first crime, no food in the house. Denise walks in one day, got a pack of pork chops in her hand. I'm like, where'd you get that? She's like, I stole it. I was like, show me how you did that. So she takes me over to A&P shows me how she's stealing food. I'm like, good idea.

And we get to where we're wanting a sandwich, man. And Denise had been stuffing the food down her pants. That's how we're getting the food out of there. Kmart across the way. And you can't put a loaf of bread down your pants. I looked at my sister. I was like, let me see what I can do. Walked into Kmart, 10, 10 years old.

Walked into Kmart. Got a hoodie off the rack, took the tags off of it, put it on, wore it out, got out. And I was like, shit. So stuffed a loaf of bread down the sleeve, walk out of A&P with it. Kmart of course Start stealing toys and games and books Lo's everything else Mom comes home

Seize the shit Where'd you get this I stand up we found it She's like you didn't find this Denise stands up We stole it My mom looks at my sister Show me how you did that

So she starts running us As little shoplifters Calls her mom So it's this intergenerational Shoplifting ring It all of a sudden We start taking these road trips They go to JC Pennies

Until clothes and jewelry bullshit like that I was the book guy So I always stop at the bookstore We're still a load of books, take them back and, you know, devour them. But first crime, I committed right there. And usually at that point in the present, and you know this, I'm sure you know this shit, too. I don't know how old you were when you started crime. I was 10.

And, you know, when you're a kid, you can't help what the adults in your circle do. You're going to do the shit they do. Yeah. But when I became that adult, you know, I chose to do that. Yeah. But I had that path laid for me. my sister other than that shoplifting she's fine i mean well anger issues out the ass but uh denise is a parent she's a she's a teacher she works hard every day doesn't break the law anything

else i was the guy that just kept on going and um so that's the first crime i committed right there and i found out quickly that not only my mom but everyone on that side of the family were criminals that's a whole whole ring of whole damn thing so i grew up man doing uh insurance fraud you know faking accidents, burning cars for cash, burning homes, faking accidents as well, trafficking drugs, growing pot, illegally strip mining coal. I was on the Alex Friedman show. He got a kick out of that bullshit. But document forgery, I grew up knowing how to do that until I branched off on my own. I faked a car accident and 94-96 got the money to get married, moved from Hazard, Kentucky to Lexington to go to UK. I was an English major and theater major. Do you have a job during any of this

time? It's just one lick after one licks carrying it on to the next year. So that's a good question. The first job I had, my stepfather, my mom gets remarried, my stepfather, he was a coal miner. She talks him into quitting his job going into the coal business. And he was, that's where the illegal strip mining comes in. He couldn't afford to get the permits, the two acre permits. So he does, what's called wildcatting. That's where you just go in and take the coal out and you don't worry about reclaiming the land or anything else. And that's how you make money. A lot of people do that in that area. So he goes broke doing that. And we ended up living in a 40 foot trailer. Me, my sister, my stepdad, my mom, and a work hand, we're in this 40 foot trailer for 18 months,

living off literally deer meat, cornmeal. And I remember saying to my sister, I'll never do this shit again. So another motivator all of a sudden. But what happens is, is, I forgot your damn question. No, I was asking if you had a job during this whole thing. The job. So the first job I got is he finally rebuilds himself, starts logging. So he hired me. We didn't have any money. He's like, I'll pay you $20 a day to go out and log with me.

So I logged 10 hours a day, $2 an hour, was the first job. The first company I worked for was Domino's, Domino's Pizza, became a manager and ripped him off for probably $30,000 in a year until they found out about it. I mean, I was living pretty well and everyone got pizzas. So that was the first job. The second job was I worked at Jay Peterman, you know, like from Seinfeld. Yeah, yeah. I worked the real Jay Peterman company for a while, ripped them off. Then I moved over to, I was at a deli assistant manager at Kroger for a while, didn't rip them off because that was a corporation.

They'd find that out. But I did eat well from the deli. Then I went over to, there was a place called the Lexington Diner's Club. gave you this discount they sold telemarketing this discount um um card for restaurants you'd go in you buy one meal they'd give you another free i ended up stealing they sold those cards for sixty dollars a piece so one night i just did a b and e went in and stole like 300 of these cards and set up my own telemarketing shop selling them until they found out about it and i got charged for that so that was another one um i worked for the for the shriner circus for a while they ran the

Shriner Circus. This company ran Shriner's Circus donations and Kiwana's donations. So I set up my own Kiwana's charity and would do telemarketing to get donations to go in my pocket. Got caught, did three months on that. After that is when I find the internet. So that was all the little scams going up to that. So I'm online every day. I found eBay and I was like, shit, I like eBay. Didn't know how to make money on eBay. So I used to watch Inside Edition. Idiot Bill O'Reilly. He was the host of Inside back then. And they were doing a show that night on Beanie Babies, profiling peanut, the Royal Blue Elephant. I'm sitting there watching like $1,500. Shit, I didn't find me a peanut. And I was really naive. I was like, well, you know, I'm in Kentucky. You got all these little rural

stores and everything. I can just go around to all these stores. And surely there's one in the bin. So six hours of that the next day, I'm like, no, there's none in the bin. They're are on eBay for $1,500. So what I did was they had the gray beanie baby elephant, the exact same elephant, just a different color, had that thing for $8, and I'm like, buy the gray beanie baby elephant for $8. Stopped by Kroger on the way home,

pick up a pack of blue-writ dye, go home, try to die the little guy. Turns out they're made out of polyester, don't hold dye. You literally get them out and you see all the ink draining off the damn thing. So here I am. Tried to dry it with a blow dryer so the ink stays.

and it looks like it's got the mange when you get through with it. And what I did was, found a picture of a real one, posted it on eBay. Woman wins the bid. As soon as she wins the bid, I'm like, send her a message. Because I want to put her on the defense of not me. So I sent her a message. I was like, hey, congratulations on winning the bid. We'll get this right out to you.

The problem is that we've never done any business before. I don't know if I can trust you. What I need you to do, go down to the U.S. Postal Service, pick up a couple money orders for $1,500. dollars send those to me once i get those i'll send you your animal she believed that sends me the money orders i cash them out i send them this creature in the mail immediately get a phone call i didn't order this my exact response was lady you ordered a blue elephant i sent you a blueish elephant and right there is that for me that was the first lesson of cybercrime right there delay a victim long enough you just keep putting them off a lot of them because they don't know who

to report to anything else they get exasperated throw their hands in there walk away none of them complained law enforcement right so first crime i committed got away with it kept going we got to where i was another inside edition they were selling autographed baseballs of sammy sosa mark mcguire so i was watching that and i was like shit i can do autographed baseballs and go down the academy the next day by a case of baseballs stop by that same croger pick up a sharpie go home start trying to sign it and i was like shit that doesn't look anything like their signatures so I was like, well, okay, so they're signing it at the field. Certificate of authenticity. So I printed my own certificate of authenticity, sold them all $60 apiece. About three weeks

later, knock at the door. Bam, bam, bam, bam. You know that cop knock? Bam, bam. I was like, I was married at the time. And, uh, honey, it's for you. Yeah, my wife, she's just looking at because she knows what that knock is too. You know, you've never heard it before, but you know right there. And I'm like, okay. Or they hang out with you long enough. They get to know it. They get to know. that place. I opened the door. And the cop's name, he was Sergeant Pat Tingle from the Fayette County Sheriff's Office. I opened the door. He's there with the detective. He's like, are you Brett Johnson? I'm like, yeah. And he's like, can we come in and talk to you about some baseballs? I was like, sure, come on in. So my wife, Susan, she's just looking at me. She

stands up by this point. She doesn't even look at them. She's just looking dead at me. So they're like, autographed baseballs. I'm like, yeah. And they're like, Sammy Sosa and Mark McGuire. Not, yep, where'd you get them? Bought them off eBay. with certificates of authenticity, yep, off eBay, yep. Mr. Johnson, we've got a sample of their signatures down at the office, and it doesn't look anything like them. I was like, huh, that's weird. They come with certificates of authenticity.

I was going to say, I have a certificate. And they're like, Mr. Johnson, we think you printed those off. And I was like, no, sir. And Mr. Johnson, we think you signed those baseballs. And I was like, nope, not me. So then they're like, you're going to send these people their money back or we're going to put you in jail. Do you understand?

I was like, I understand that. So they leave. My wife, Susan, the whole time she's looking dead at me. Finally, I look over and I was like, what? And she's like, you son of a bitch. That's why you bought all those goddamn baseballs. And I'm like, yeah. So that was one.

There was another where Microsoft Front Page, they were giving out free trial versions of Front Page 98. So I had the crack that would turn it into the full version. So I posted on eBay. I had the full version of like $30. And there was a Kinko's down the street. So one night, two people. 2 a.m. I walk in and look at the guy

behind the counter. I was like, do you mind if I take a few of these trial versions? He's like, dude, you can take all of them. If you want to. I was like, yeah. He was like, yes, I just pick up the entire stand. Walk out of the door with it. Go up, post them all on eBay, sell them all for $30 a piece. That

gets a knock at the door. Same deputy? Same guy. He came like four times, man. He would be like, Brent, come on now. But what was happening is, They were all, everyone I sold the stuff to, they were all out of state. Yeah.

And they weren't going to come to Kentucky to file charges. And will, is he like who, like at that point, you know, who the FBI, it's not like they're really used to this quite yet. Right. Right. Right. He wants Khan Bank of America out of $250,000, using nothing but a fake ID and his charm. He is the most interesting man in the world. I don't typically commit crime. But when I do, it's bank frog. Stay greedy, my friends. Support the channel.

Join Matthew Cox's Patreon. So those were the first little scams. And I kept going, got better at it. Finally, I started selling pirated software. Pirated software leads into mod chips, first into gaming systems so you can play the pirated disc. Then I started putting mod chips into cable boxes so you can watch all the pay-per-view, all the porn, all that bullshit.

Then finally, started programming satellite DSS. card. So those 18-inch RCA systems, you pull the card out of it, program it on all the channels. Started doing that. Canadian judge, right as I start doing that, Connor's shaking his head. He's always disappointed. Like, whenever I tell stories, he always halfway through, he starts going like, what were you? Like, shit. What are you doing? So a Canadian judge ruled that this was like 97-98. Canadian judge rules that it's legal for Canadian citizens to pirate RCA signals. And his exact language in court was, RCA does. doesn't sell the systems here, so it's legal for my citizens to take those signals.

So overnight in the United States, a little industry pops up. You go down to Best Buy, buy the system for $100, take it out in the parking lot, open the system up, pull the system out, pull the card out, throw the system away, program the car, and ship its ass to Canada, $500 a pop. Started doing that, making a lot of money. Had so many orders, couldn't fill them all, quickly. And I mean, by God, quickly thought to myself, why do I need to fill any of the orders? they're in Canada, I'm down here, who are they going to complain to?

So I didn't fill any of the orders, stole even more money. I was stealing like $4,000 a week at that point, making a pretty good living, and was getting worried about things. I was like, man, I'm going to be looked at for money laundering. So I got it in my head. I was like, what I need is I need a fake driver's license. I'll use that driver's license to open up a bank account, laundered the money through there, cash out at the ATM.

No one will know me. I'm at UK. I have no idea where to get a fake ID. So I get online, look around, think I find a guy, send the son of a bitch, $200, send him a picture. He rips me off. You said you're a UK? What? University of Kentucky.

Oh, okay. Okay. So, dude rips me off, and I got really pissed. Fuckers. Scam artists. Scam me. So I got really upset and started to look around. Well, back then, the only real avenue you had for online crime was a higher.

internet relay chat rolling chat board no idea who you're talking to if you can trust them if they've got a product or service if they've got it if it works or if they're just going to rip you off because those channels were loaded full of fucking scammers so what happens is I first find the only site that was out there was called a counterfeit library and it was a tutorial site on degrees and had some some bullshit identity stuff on there you know it's not really good What year is this? This would have been 97, late 97, early 98. So find this site.

They had a forum that literally no one was using. I was like the third person that was registered on the forum. So I start going on there and the only thing I'm doing is just bitching every single day about getting ripped off and how I need this. Well, about the same time that I register, two other guys come on the scene. One is a screen name Mr. X out of Los Angeles. The other one's screen name is Bielzebub out of Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan. So we start bullshitting around every day.

And, you know, I'm talking about my eBay fraud that I'm doing everything else like that. And one day, B.L's above, he gets me on ICQ. That's how we used to talk all the time was ICQ. He gets me on ICQ. And he's like, you know, I can make you a driver's license. I'm like, well, shit, dude, do it. And he was like, no, but I'm going to charge you. I'm like, yeah, you're going to charge me.

He's like, no, I'm going to charge you because if you're going to do this kind of stuff, you've got to learn to trust people if you're going to be in this business. I'm like, well, by that. that point, I'd already established a pretty good rapport with the people who owned counterfeit library. They knew me. I was emailing. They were emailing back and forth all the time. So I thought to myself, I was like, well, shit, he's going to rip me off. I can at least get his ass booted off this site. So I was like, bet. Let's let's go. So I sent him a picture, sent him $200. Two weeks later, in the mail, I get this Ohio driver's license from a guy named in the name of Stephen

Shwecky. Turns out he's a real dude, works to this day at ADP payroll. So, I saw that damn thing. Now, looking back at it, that driver's license was not great quality. But I didn't know that. To me, it was the prettiest thing in the freaking world. So here I am. I'm running checks through check cashing places, setting up accounts, opening drop addresses, that mailboxes, et cetera, all this other bullshit.

So start using it extensively. And what happened was B. Elzebub, he made driver's licenses. Mr. X made a very passable social security card, which was very easy to do. And then I didn't really have any skill at all except eBay fraud. So Beelzebub said, hey, why don't you become the reviewer on this site? That way, any product or service that comes in, you get to look at it, get to see how it's used, learn everything that you need to do.

And you're not selling anything, so you're more trusted than somebody like me that would review people. And I was like, let's try that. Well, that is really like the field of dreams for cybercrime. If you build it, they will come. And they did. because the only avenue you had, other than that, was IRC. No one wanted to be on that bullshit.

So they started to come on Counterfeit Library. Counterfeit Library, so the genesis of modern cybercrime, three sites. Counterfeit Library, Carter Planet, Shadow Crew. I ran both Counterfeit Library and Shadow Crew. Dmitri Golobov, Ukrainian National, builds Carter Planet. And the way that happened was he saw what was happening with Counterfeit Library. And he liked that. He was a spammer at that point in time, getting all these credit card details.

And he thinks to himself, you know, I wonder if people would buy stolen credit cards. Turns out they will. So the dude picks up the phone, picks up the phone, calls his, he's in Odessa. He picks up the phone, calls his buddies, they call theirs. They have a physical conference in Odessa. 150 of these cyber criminals show up. And they launched the idea of Carter Planet. And that's the genesis of all modern credit theft that we see today.

So counterfeit library Over the next couple years Transitions over to Shadow Crew The people who started Shadow Crew Seth Sanders built Shadow Crew Me and Kim Taylor I was the head of Shadow Crew Kim Taylor was a second in charge

Seth was the third But Seth was just an ID guy He never really liked the credit game at all So he ends up kind of dropping out over the years The first two guys that started with me Lucky him Yeah lucky him The first two guys that started with me

Beelze above Mr. X X gets picked up up in Las Vegas, cashing out cards. Beelzebub was hooked up with Mark Engel up in Canada, big-time pot grower, who then snitches on everybody. So Beelzebub goes back to growing pot in there. And at the end of the day, I'm the only guy left standing. So at one point, in those forums,

every single business transaction that took place went through me. I was the trust mechanism. And what I said was is, hey, if I vouched for someone, if I give someone a review, if you get ripped off, I'll cover you. I'll make sure that you're reimbursed or you get a like product that you can use. So that built trust within those environments. What happens from there is we get too big.

By the time we actually transition over to Shadow Crew, I can't do it myself. So I sit down and over the space of, you know, a week, I come up with this review system that you still see in place today. So today, you know, we've got reviews, vouches, escrow, things like that. So are you actually making money doing this? It's just something that's just, you're just loving doing it. you enjoy it certainly you love doing it i was i was online uh anywhere from 14 to 18 hours a day i made or i said made i stole anywhere from 12 to 24 000 a month until the credit card scene hits once the credit card scene hits i'm stealing profiting 30 to 40 000 a month so i'm doing

pretty well um credit so so so so counterfeit library starts out as an identity theft site identity theft, fake driver's licenses, eBay fraud, PayPal fraud, that. Once Dmitri Golobov comes on the scene, I'm the guy that brought the Ukrainians in because they didn't have a way to cash out in their area. So once credit hits that scene, we transition almost overnight from that identity theft site over to a credit fraud site. And it blows up big. And that's where we get in a lot of trouble and finally get caught.

So what happens is we had this thing called the, they called the CVV-V-1 hack. not a hack, but that's what it's called. We were spamming all these details. And back then, when you launched a fishing attack, you could have 20 fields. You know, you could ask everything in the friggin' world and they would answer it. So we would get complete identity profiles just from one fishing attack. Because people weren't used to it at that time. They had never seen a brand new thing. Right. So you have no clue what happened. Yeah, you sent them an email. It looks like it comes from Bank of America. And they think, oh, my bank. Yeah. What's your account number? Social, D.L. Mother's Made. You'd get everything right there. So we were getting card numbers and

pins as well. And we were using those card numbers to commit C&P fraud. So just online credit fraud. For you to encode that on a counterfeit card, you have to have complete track to data. So on the back of that credit debit card, the mag stripe there, there are three data tracks. First data tracks the customer's name, second data track, the card number, 16 digit algorithm outside of it. Third data track, indiscriminate data, no one uses it. What's sold is that second track. All right. Now, back then, we didn't have that algorithm. We weren't doing skimming. We were just doing fishing is what we were doing.

What we found out, though, like I said, in order for you to encode that and take it to an ATM and cash out, you've got to have complete track too. Back then, none of the banks had implemented the hash, which means you've got the card number, you've got the pen. You can take the card number forward slash and any 16 digits out beside of it. it would encode, you could take it to an ATM, start pulling cash out. We started doing that. So up until that point, a Carter... When was the... What year was this?

This would have been up through... So that CVV hack went on from 2001 through 0708. It was when it started to really die down. So 2001, none of the banks had implemented that hash. So an online Carter was profiting a... good one was profiting 30 to 40k. And that's working your ass off. Okay. 30 to 40k a month is what you'd profit at that point. Once that moves over into cashing out at ATMs, that's 30 to 40,000 a day. That's just as fast as you can get the money out. As fast as you can pull the cash out. So you'd literally

map out a route of ATMs, stand there until you feel bad and move on to the next one. Well, my forum techie, fucking genius that he was at the time. And he was. He was a really bright guy. Albert Gonzalez, he starts, he gets involved in this. We hired the guy as our forum techie. He goes into credit card sales under the screen name Scarface, does all this other bullshit. So he's in New Jersey one day, broad daylight, doing the CB1 cash out, broad daylight, standing at an ATM, 40 minutes, 40 minutes standing there, feeding one counterfeit card in, pulling $20 bills out, stuffing them in his backpack, 40 minutes of that. This is in the document. Yeah, yeah.

So just so happens. A couple of cops, notice the kid. One of them's like, let me go over and ask him what he's doing. So he goes over, Albert falls apart. Flips goes to work for the Secret Service. Now, the thing is,

back then, law enforcement suffered from what I like to call FIS, fucking idiot syndrome. All right? They didn't know anything about cybercrime at all. Didn't know how to track you to anything else like that. So we would see. on the server side for Shadow Crew, we would see IPs coming in from DoD, Pentagon, FBI, Secret.

We'd see all these IPs. So we knew what time it was. At the same time, you'd see local and state forums, law enforcement forums, that would mention Shadow Crew explicitly. Not only that, but we had this kid named Enhance. So Enhance is the guy back in 2001 that publishes Paris Hilton's phone contact list.

I don't know if you remember that bullshit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's this kid. He not only did that, but he intercepted text messages of the United States Secret Service investigating shadow crew. So all this was out, and I'm sitting there going, huh, this does not even very well. Now, Albert gets picked up. I had happened upon this thing called tax return identity theft right before that. It'd been 2002.

The drop. The drop. So 2002, I start stealing $160,000 a week, 10 months out of the year. committing tax return identity theft basically filing taxes on dead people having everything deposited to a prepaid debit card did that manually would file a return every six minutes do that for three days of the week fourth day plot a map of ATMs next couple of days cash out the cards so this is before there's any so this is this is at the infancy of that that scheme which right right right right just blown up now right wide open no security in place whatsoever as

matter of fact it took the IRS that was 2002 The IRS actually starts putting security in place 2011. So it took them nine years to start looking at IP ranges, velocity of attack, all this other bullshit. So it takes them nine years to do that. I started doing that. And because I saw the writing on the wall, I was the head of Shadow Crew. I'm sitting there going, and whether it was real or not, I was sitting there going, okay, I'm worried about RICO. I'm worried about I'm going to be charged with everything that everyone under me is doing.

So I'm like, I quit. Deservedly, by the way. Deservedly. It's not like I did. They're going to try and get me. They're going to try and pin that on me. No, no. They're going to.

That's why guys like you are exactly what, well, and to a degree of me, are exactly why they, that law. That's why that's there. The, uh, CCE or, you know, uh, continue. And they're going to give you 25 or 30 years. Yeah. They're going to do that. So I'm like, I quit. So I stepped aside.

What keeps me from being arrested on the Shadow Crew bust. So Shadow Crew makes the front cover of Forbes, August 2004. Headline, Who's Still in Your Identity? October 26, 2004, U.S. Secret Service, 33 people, six countries, six hours. I'm the only guy publicly mentioned as getting away. A few other guys got away just weren't talked about at that point, all right? What keeps me from being caught is I stepped away from Shadow Crew right before Albert Gonzalez comes back in. And here's what that story, what actually happened was, he goes to work for the Secret Service.

As I said, Secret Service had no clue about how to track these guys. So they literally looked at him. How would you catch these guys? And he was like, well, have you thought about a VPN? And they're like, what's a VPN? So he has to explain to him what a VPN is. And they're like, good idea. So I quit.

He comes back in, takes over Shadow Crew, bans anyone who asks any questions. So that no paranoia is out there. everyone and says, hey, in order to be safe, we need all traffic to go through this VPN that I've set up. That way no one can monitor us. Well, the Secret Service owns a VPN. They capture like $7 million worth of traffic coming through, and that's where the bust comes from. So the bust is October 26, 2004. I'm picked up February 8, 2005. Can I let me interject here. So when you're watching these guys get cracked in the head and there's a there's an article here and newspaper article here and newspaper article here like you're seeing all this kind of circling around you are like how are you

feeling at that point are you thinking I'm good I'm going to be good no okay no oh no so so what happens is I'm in Charleston South Carolina and I'm going through I'm going through the shit on my own on a personal life I was married for nine years my wife I lied to her all nine I mean took her three years to find out I was a crook the next six years were literally this story right here. I'm going to stop. I will stop. She's trying to wrangle you in.

Like if I can just get this guy. It's like just a little while longer, dear, until finally it became me looking at her and saying, hey, you like spending money, don't you? I use that one a lot. Yeah. Where do you think this money comes from? What do you make it comes from? You knew what you were getting into.

So she leaves me. And so my mindset mix my dad and mix my mom. My mom, criminal mindset. my dad, that fear of the loved ones leaving. So my first wife, Susan, leaves. I go through this depression, get suicidal, everything else. Rowing around the house in Charleston, South Carolina, had a house on the river, everything.

So roaming around the house, realize I'm getting suicidal, figure, hell, I need to do something about that. Pick up the phone book, call psychologist, cry to the psychologist on the phone. I mean, I broke down completely. She's like, come in today. So I go in, tell her everything. She's like, for four months, tell her everything.

For four months, I'm like, do you have to report anything that I might tell you? As long as you're not actively breaking the law, I'm like, okay. So tell her everything. She's like, for four months, she's preaching about how I need to go into real estate and not crime. And I'm like, is there a difference between the two? So what happens is I don't start drinking until I'm 34. I was 34 at that point. I didn't, never drank until that point.

So I started drinking, had never been to a strip club. One night, I get lonely. I get horny. and I'm like, shit, why not? So I go to strip club and I'm literally that guy. I am that guy, dude, that falls in love with the first one that he sees. I walk in, she walks by, I'm like, that's the one I need. Move this chick in with me.

Yeah, yeah, it's nuts. Move this chick in with me. After I move her in with me, find out she's addicted to Coke. Not only, and, you know, now I know all this bullshit. Not only is she addicted to Coke, but she's probably. prostituting herself to support her habit. And, you know, I laugh about it. But the truth of the matter is, I love the shit out of that woman.

I did. I absolutely adored that woman. And I get it in my head. I was like, you know, if I can fix her, we'll be together. You know, I keep feeding myself these tails. So I used to take road trips for a lot of the fraud. It gets to the point where she stops Coke, quits her job. And she gets this, you know, just dependent, codependent personality.

Don't leave me. attitude so i can't take a road trip anymore i slowly i've got all my money overseas go broke all right so where i find out about shadow crew i'm in the grocery store one day happened just happened to walk past the magazine aisle and i i see this article about identity theft on the cover and i'm like huh might be a good article it's like shadow crew and i'm like oh fuck so go sign on to shadow crew at that point under a different name and the response on shadow crew was it was initially this fuck yeah we've made it followed almost immediately by a oh this ain't good yeah so that was the response um of course four months later august two months later shadow crew gets popped okay so

the day that shadow crew gets popped by that point i'm monitoring shadow crew because i know something's going to go all right so i'm monitoring shadow crew almost every day go to sign in and of course the Secret Service has altered the face of the website saying, you know, you're no longer in the shadows. They've got to change the screen on it. You could still access the site at that point. And there were a couple of other sites by that point that had been set up. So I'm going over these other sites to see what the news is. And no one really knew at that point what had happened. Of course, John Ashcroft, the head legal guy in the U.S. at that point, Attorney General at that point, he comes on CNN and he's talking about Shepard.

i'm sitting there watching all day and i'm like shit god yeah i'm just the fucking all just a country boy i'm from kentucky yeah so wow i'm the only guy that was publicly mentioned as getting away the other guys but not not you but you're you're like your screen right right screen name okay okay okay god was the only one that got away from that okay what no one else knew there were other guys that got out uh for example the secret service literally in the air they timed everything for like a Sunday at 7 p.m. Eastern is when the bus happened because that's when most people were online at that, but they wanted to get everyone at the same time. Some of the guys that got away, one of them was named Tron, and this kid was over in the Ukraine, and he was very effective about getting into Bank

of America, very effective. So they were in the air to arrest him. They called the local PD in the Ukraine saying, hey, we got a warrant. We're coming down to arrest him. Local PD is like, oh yeah, come on down and get him. So they get in the car before the Secret Service gets there. They get in the car go to this kid and say, hey, they're coming to get you. We're going back to the station. And the kid takes off on the run and gets his ass down in South America. And he's a few years getting caught at that point. But there were different guys who got away that weren't mentioned.

I was the only guy. They picked me up four months later, February 8th of 05, Charleston, South Carolina. FBI picks me up Charleston PD. Within 45 minutes, Secret Service comes in, takes over the investigation. What happened was, is I was being interviewed. 45 minutes in the interview door opens up two agents pop in

to sit down and they're like we're you know we're a U.S. Secret Service we'd like to talk to you about some credit cards and I'm like fuck so they let me sit in a county jail for a week

okay wait a second sorry I maybe I missed something how do they get to you though exactly did you just explain that no no I did okay so what happens is I go through I was

like were you one of the guys that went through the VPN that was set up by I was in love with this stripper. Right. All right. I go through all my stateside cash. Like I hear you.

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? You're not wrong. I'm not wrong. Okay. So go through all my state side cash. Can't get over to Latvia to get the rest of it. So when Shadow Crew is busted, the way tax season ran, it ran from January 15th through October 15th.

The bust is October 26. So I'm not filing taxes to get any more money. I can't run credit cards because. the forums just got shut down. I don't know who to trust anymore. So what I'm left with is running counterfeit cashier's checks. Bam, bam, bam, bam. Looking for COD orders, cashing out bullion, stuff like that.

Of course, that's the go-to move. Of course. And it's stupid as fuck, all right? Because I used to preach that. I was like, don't do this shit. You're going to go to prison. So what happens is they identify that some guy in Charleston, South Carolina, is doing this. They reference the forums.

They're like, oh, it's this guy. so they set up a controlled delivery they knew i was uh cashing out tiffany diamonds at that point so they uh set up a controlled delivery for these like like it's like a 30 000 order for tiffany uh engagement ring not engagement wedding bans of all things but um fbi i does that with controlled delivery charleson pd does that secret service had been notified i was going to be picked up so they were all ready to go so they picked me up on this controlled delivery what happens is uPS driver pulls in i had a drop address uPS driver pulls in i had a drop address uPS driver pulls in I pop out of the car, walk up, and I was like, you got a package for me, don't you?

And like, yeah, you got an ID? I was like, yeah, show him my ID, give him a counterfeit cashier's check for 30K, turn around 30 people in the fucking parking lot. All cops. I'm like, oh, so get popped there. I got popped February 8th, three weeks before I was scheduled to be married. My stripper girlfriend had no idea what I did for a living. So she finds out at that point. They let me sit in a county jail for a week.

Two agents fly in from New Jersey because that's where Albert was arrested. The centralized location for all cybercrime investigations was out of New Jersey at that point. So two agents flying from New Jersey pulled me out of a cell and they're like, we got your laptop. I'm like, yeah, you got anything on your laptop? Yeah, well, you're going to be charged for it. I figured. And then they looked at me.

And they're like, anything you can do for us. My exact response was, you let me get back with Elizabeth. I'll do whatever you want me to do. so then they're like we're going to get you out i'm like good they let me sit there 90 days to get a taste of everything yeah yeah got to get a taste of so they popped me out after 90 days first person i call by this point my sister has disowned me and everything first person i call is elizabeth and i'm out and she's like i'll be there so this chick midnight i'm standing in the parking lot of the uh charleston county detention center this chick pulls up in a limousine

no shit. She had a friend on a limousine company. She pulls up in a limousine. Me and the agent are watching this. Trunk pops open. She gets out, walks around to the trunk, gets out these two plastic storage containers that have my clothes in them, comes over, drops the clothes in front of me, hugs me, call me later, gets in the car, drives away. I'm sitting there crying. Oh, yeah. I thought she's like, they're like, hump, come on in, baby. I'm sitting there crying. Agent looks at me. He's like, is that your fiance? I'm like, yeah. He's like, man, I am so sorry. I'm like, yeah. So I had $30 to my name. The agent has to pay for my hotel room that night and pay for my food that night. So he checks me in. As soon as he leaves, I've got $30. I'm like,

time to start. So walk my ass to Walmart, buy a prepaid debit card that night so I can get back into tax return identity theft and long story short is I continue well so the 90 days the 90 days wasn't a good enough taste not okay so I call Elizabeth I beg her to get back with me she does start breaking the law break the law from 10 for the next 10 months from inside secret service offices with them in the room with me so yeah until they find out about it at that point they revoke the bond judge reinstates the bond, I go on a cross-country crime sprees, still $600,000 in four months, make the United States Most Wonded list, go to Disney World, get caught, get arrested, escape from prison, get caught again, serve out my time. So how does it escape from prison? Is that a camp? You went to a camp? It was a camp. You know, I'd like to be a helicopter, a gunfight, that kind of shit. But it's always a camp, right? Yeah. So my dad had done.

Yeah, because I've been in mediums and lows, and you're just not getting. out like it's like unless you know you say that man they sent me to big spring prison after that and the week before i got there these three frigging idiots they had i guess they'd got some dental flaws or whatever the fuck they had got and they had cut the bars from the culverts that led out of the prison had climbed through the culverts got outside of the fence and they were supposed to have a ride didn't have a ride they're like well we need to go back in and call they get caught coming in yeah yeah caught coming back in so you can get out but the way i escaped my dad i hadn't seen the man hadn't had a conversation with him in like 20 years he shows up at my

sentencing stands up in front of the judge i want to make sure brett gets a good start he can come and live with me when he gets out everything else how much time did you get uh initially 75 months okay okay so got jesus that thing my My guidelines were 60 to 75. And I had told everyone in the pod and I made it known that if I got any more than 60, I was not staying. So they have the sentence. So the counselors and SIS, everybody already knows this. No, he's not staying.

No. So what happens is they of sentencing. Dean Eicholberger was a prosecutor. He stands up and this dude is screaming at this point. He's like, Johnson has manipulated the Secret Service, the prosecutor, and. today your honor we want the upper limits of the guidelines i'm sitting there going so judge looks at me and she's like i agree 75 months well i'd never used drugs before i got arrested in orlando guy in Orlando takes me in under his wing he's like you know the only time you get off is

the ardap hard out and i was like i don't have a drug problem he's like well you can find a drug problem catch you and i was like i can find a drug problem yeah so they give me diesel therapy on the way back stop at all these county jails every county jail i'm like cocaine and alcohol get back to Columbia South Carolina I get a psychological evaluation order psychologist comes in four hour evaluation about halfway through he's like use any type of drugs I'm like yeah what do you use cocaine smoker snort snort how much an eight ball day he looks at me as like that's a lot and I was like yeah you got any trouble out of that yeah I can't get an erection and he looks at me and I looked at him and I and I got that shit

from watching boogie nights that money shot at the end where Mark Wahlberg just can't stand to attention. I'm like, that's got to be right. So I'm looking at the psychologist. And finally, we're both sides of it. And I'm like, is that right? He looks at me. He's like, it could happen. Is it still happening? I was like, no, but not that I want it to be all right right now. So that makes it into my pre-sentence report. So the judge, she gives me 75 months. I looked at my lawyer. I was like, can you get the drug program for me? So he's like, I don't know. I'll ask. So he stands up, Your Honor, where you order the drug program for Mr. Johnson? She's like, no, but I'll recommend he gets evaluated. I looked at my lawyer. I was like, what does

that mean? Well, you're probably not going to get it. And my exact words were like, how soon can you get me to the camp? And he's like, if you don't appeal, I can get you there pretty quick. Exact words, fuck the appeal, get me to the camp. I'll take it from there. He looks at me like I'm the biggest idiot in the world. Six weeks later, I'm at Ashland, Kentucky. I had had family and friends research camps that weren't supposed to have a fence, get to Ashland, 14 foot fence, a razor wire on top. And I'm like, shit, go in through processing, look at the guard. And I'm like, any jobs outside of the fence? And he's like, well, you can work in the national forest.

And I'm like, no, I'll die out there. And he's like, well, you can do landscaping. And I'm like, I can run a weed eater. So I go into about a week later, you know, once you process through and go through all that bullshit, walk into the guard's office, behind his desk, the entire wall. is this aerial photo, the compound, blown up with the outlying area. So I can literally sit there, plot the escape. As I'm talking to him, my dad starts to visit.

About the third visit in, he's like, you know, I've been reading about you online. I'm like, yeah, he's like, yeah. He's like, that's a lot of money you've made. I'm like, yeah. He's like, you think you can teach somebody how to do that. And when I used to tell that story, I started out lying. I said that, you know, I thought my dad was back in my life. And he wasn't.

the truth of the matter was my dad hadn't talked to me in 20-some years he and i really believe that he saw me through the frame of my mom that criminal mindset and i think that's the only way he thought he could talk to me like that and i manipulated the man and helped me escape he had four thousand dollars cash to his name got that got an idea a change of clothes and a cell phone and um ran off was there at the camp for six weeks left u.s marshals at canvas a three state area find me hold up in a hotel and i get another so sentencing on that spent eight months in solitary a day of sentencing go in secret services there prosecutors there prosecutor stands up and he's like your honor you should consider that when mr johnson was arrested he was arrested with a laptop

prepaid debit cards he stole that identity information looks like he was involved in this stuff yet again judge looks at him and says no if you're going to charge him with it you should have charging with it because it comes come to find out they came in the room took the shit without a warrant just scarfed it all up didn't weren't able to use that as evidence so the judge says no because the escape happens so quickly after the initial sentencing they use the exact same PSR so the judge starts going through the PSR looks at me and he's like mr. Johnson it appears that before you got involved with all these drugs you were a pretty good citizen I was like yes your honor yes I was yes sir

So then he looks at me, he's like, so what I'm going to do? You need ARDAP. Yeah. You need RDAP. I do need RDA. What he does is he's like, I'm going to give you 15 months on the escape. I'm like, okay. And I'm going to order the drug program for you.

I'm like, all right. So 15 months extra, but RDAP gives you what? 18 months without six months out of way out. So I ended up by escaping prison. I got out of prison three months earlier than I would have without the escape. He once got to. plastic surgery because he didn't like the photo on his wanted poster. His legend precedes him. The way indictments precede arrests. He is the most interesting man in the world. I don't typically

commit crime, but when I do, it's bank fraud. Stay greedy, my friends. Support the channel. Join Matthew Cox's Patreon. So that's what happens, but like I said, I did eight months solitary confinement until they sent me to Big Spring Prison. Big Spring Prison is out in West Texas. It's a disciplinary, medium low, converted Air Force compound. So hot, no shit, Matt. So hot that warnings would come on the radio telling you that you couldn't drive on certain streets because the asphalt was melted. It got that hot there. Went in and, you know, at a camp, it's completely different. Completely different. And when I got there, that's when you realize that guards don't run things

the inmates run the shit that's going on there so I met at the as I get processed out going up to the barracks treasurer of area brotherhood he's standing there I'm the first white guy walks up and he's like hey

how many more white guys came in I'm like shit I don't know four or five next question what are you in here for my answer computer crime big smile on my face he looks at me like I thought you were a child

yeah so he goes against his buddies because they thought I was a child molester they circle around what you say you're in here for so i'm sitting there trying to tell them the shit and they're and end of the day they're like sounds good it's going to see something yeah you need to see something well by that point nobody's letting you travel with bullshit right all right all right so first 30 days everyone thinks i'm this trial molester until wired magazine hits the compound i'm in the magazine right it's about max butler all those other bullshit i'm in the magazine i'm like shit i've read the article there you go there you go i'm like shit i'm good to go until

I get to that one line that says Brett Johnson, comma, secret service informant. So those magazines hit the compound at 4 o'clock mail call. Chal call, they're already talking about it in the hall. So next morning, the entire compound gets shut down. Brett Johnson, Warden's office. So I go in, they've got SIS there. Is this at a medium? This is at Big Spring disciplinary.

So it's a medium, low discipline is what it is. So Warden brings me in. First question is out of his mouth, SIS. counselors are there first questions did you give an interview to wired magazine i'm like yes sir he was like when at oklahoma detention without going through the uh the public uh what do they call the public information officer exactly how did you do that in 15 minute increments sir yeah so he was like he was like don't you know they'll fucking kill you in here i was like so then he's like do you feel safe and you know i knew by that point you tell him no they're

going to throw you back in the hole until they transfer your ass. So I'm like completely safe. So he looks at me. He's like, if anything happens, anyone says anything to you, you need to come and tell us. I was like, got you. They do a locker search, try to get all the magazines off the compound. A couple of days later, I walk into the barracks. There's Nick Sander for the treasurer. He's got the magazine reading it. I'm like, fuck. So I walked up to him. I'm like, hey, Nick, what's you doing? I just doing some reading. Anything interesting? It's getting there. let me save you the trouble take the magazine point the line out to him he looks at me he's like man i already knew i was like are we going to have a problem he's like did you snitch on anybody that's on this compound

i was like no until someone gets here you told on we're going to be okay i was like all right but i had a couple jobs i had to do so the first job i got uh you know you have to work in feds so i got a job in education teaching a lit class all the a arian sign up for the lit class and we taught fraud every Wednesday six to eight 30 p.m. So that was the first first job. And then I was, you could call me the liaison between the white chomos and

the Aryans. So I would be the guy that as they come off the bus, you know as well as I do. You know who they are. As they come off the bus, I would be the guy that would have that conversation. Hey, don't know if you're in here on some sort of fucked up charge. But if you are, it's best you tell me because if you associate with these guys later on, they will fucking kill you. Yeah.

They're just going to swing on you. That's it. So, and most of the time it would be, man, I just want to do my time. And you knew, you knew at that point. Okay, you're not allowed in the TV room. You're not allowed to talk to anybody. You talk to your own kind. Somebody wants to extort you.

That's the way this shit goes. You're on your own. You're on your own. And I understand. And that's how I got out. You know, it's funny. I used to get the guys that all the shows, when they would just ask them what they're there for, fraud, which used to irritate me because I would, I would be like, you know, you can't pick

another fucking, you can't pick another crime. It's got to be fraud. And then, of course, then, so what would happen is some guy would come in the unit, some white, it'd be some, you know, white guy fucked up looking white dude. He'd say, oh, I'm, I'm here for, for a credit card fraud. And then they'd come to, then the guys would come to me, they go, Cox. And I go, yeah, they go, go, go, go, go, why? He says, he's here for fraud. He don't look right to me. And I'd look over at him. And I'd go, fuck. Yeah. I'd walk over and I'd go, hey, bro, What's going on? I heard you're here for fraud.

And I go, okay. Like, what kind of fraud? Credit card fraud? I go, well, they charge you with credit card fraud? Yeah, they charge me with credit card fraud. That's the charge, right? Yeah, well, there's no credit card. And I was like, okay, well, what did you do?

And they go, you know, I took money out of credit cards. Well, did you work at a bank? Did you like, how did the fraud work? I'm here for fraud too. And they go, well, it's not like a learning experience. And I go, okay, he's a chow. And then I just walk off and it's like. So you had that.

basic same job. Yeah. Oh, well, because you're a fraudster. And I taught the real estate class for 10 years. Now, at the medium. Now, when you taught the real estate class. So at the medium, when I was at the medium, you could say anything. You could say, look, here's how, you know, so you get the money, the down payment. So what you do is this, this. The guy gives you money back. Start a company and you get the money back here. Like, I'd break it down for exactly how to get your down payment back, how to do everything. Get to camp, can't pull that bullshit. No. You can't once. Right. Then you get the talk. That's. it. Are you telling people how to do things fraudulently? No, someone said that? That's crazy. Who would do that? I'm in here for fraud. I would never. So, then I realized like, fuck, I'm going to have to really fine-tune my class here. And so I did that.

taught GED also. Yeah, I taught game theory, public speaking, and then the lit class. Right. So you do the things that the sharp guys do, that give you credibility that make you an important person of value. That's what it is. And then nobody bothers you. If you have value, you're absolutely right.

If you have value in that system, you're okay. If you don't. You do pretty much anything. Like, yeah. Well, because what happened with me was I was in the medium and the St. Petersburg Times came out. Now, keep in mind the St. Pete, I'd already been on Dateline. But when I was on dateline,

I had just been arrested. Okay. So I haven't even done anything yet. I was interviewed later, but I'm cooperate. I'm not doing anything when I get first grabbed. But then what happens is once I get sentenced, get to the medium. I'm at the medium. And suddenly, uh, um, St. Petersburg Times comes out, front page article where I've been talking with a reporter about a politician that I had, had, had bribed. And that's what to do. In it, yeah, and in it, it talks about how I cooperated with the FBI and the secret service for like seven or eight days.

This is my lawyer saying that, oh, he cooperated more than anybody I've ever had in 15 years. I'm like, wow, don't hold back. He just sang and sang. He wanted to work some more with him. Desperately. Straight to the fucking shoe for 45 days. I'm telling him, look, I'm fine. I'm fine.

Put me back out of mine. Because they're not going to do anything to you. No, no. The worst that happened was I had a guy come up to me and say, one of the white guys, comes up to me, he goes, hey, Cox. I'm like, yeah, what's up? And he goes, look, who's the guy's name was Bubba? Bubba was the guy who ran.

He was a shot caller. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he goes, Bubba wanted to let you know, wanted me to tell you, you can't walk the yard. And I went, what?

You can't walk the yard. I went. And I thought, and I already kind of come to my conclusion that I was like, either I'm going to, one, there was two, multiple things.

One, shut my, because I got a slick mouth. Right. So I'm going to shut my mouth. Right. I'm not going to shut up. Right. So you shut your mouth for 20-something years.

Or you just run your mouth and say smart-ass shit. And you're going to get slapped every once in a while. I'm five foot six. I'm not beating the shit out of some six foot tall biker. So you're going to get slapped every once in a while, but you're going to have a good time. Right. And two, you're either

going to get beat, you know, guys are going to beat you up, or you're going to spend all your time in the fucking shoes. So you know what? I'm just going to get beat up every once in a while. So I looked and I said, well, listen, bro, I'm going to be out at the yard tonight after chow. So if Bubba wants to talk about it, he can talk about it then. And I walk off trembling. Sure. Sure you do. I go get my cousin, who happened to be

there. And we get a couple other guys. And we go and we walk the track for about hour and they see me but nothing happens but they say nothing right and that was like there was one other small episode where he told a guy that was talking to me in line that guy's a confidential informant he didn't even call me a rap which i appreciate it that was nice you know didn't say i was called the rat said confidential event i thought that was very that was you know it was very um you know uh nice and told the guy you know you keep talking to him you ever need our help first you're not going to need his help but you ever need his help you won't you can't rely on

on us. So the guy who goes, okay, blah, and walk like 10 people back. And I'm like, that was pretty much it. Like, I never really had a problem. You get the slide comment, but that's it. Yeah, my problem with Aryans, there was this one kid who was who was trouble with them anyway. His name was Adam. And he was the only one. He'd catch me in a crowd and he'd just start running his fucking mouth, you know, trying to get somebody to get me. And so one day we're all in the unit together and we used to, you know, we'd bullshit together. I'd bullshit around with And Adam was running his mouth and I looked at him. I was like, Adam, I want you to know I'm getting scared of you. And he looks at me. He's like, good. And I was like, well, the way this is going to work out is you're going to be asleep one night. I'm going to stab a pencil in your eye. And he looks at me and he's like, telling you the truth, man. So the next day, they make his ass check in. He's causing problems. You know, they don't want problems. You get in a routine and your time's going good and you know, they didn't want any problems. Yes. So and and the head guy there, his name was Farmer, big,

fucking Nebraska boy. I mean, huge dude. And I still remember man, this guy he was talking about, I'm sure you saw it to. You'd take the domino, right? And you'd shave the domino down. Are you serious? You know, Bozziak knows.

We talked about that at the end of the day. And they fucking cut the penis. Shub the domino in there. Pack it with ointment. And it would heal up. So that was the first thing the dude did. And we're like, shit, we ain't doing that. So he comes in one day he had been talking about getting a tattoo and he wanted the punisher symbol right on the head

of it so we're like you're not going to do that dude no one's going to be pretty close yeah we're like no one's going to do that so he comes in one day and he's like got it done they were like no and he's like anybody want to see and all of us at the same time fuck yeah we want to see so we're we're gathering around he drops it as like that is the punisher symbol so yeah oh And that's the thing. I mean, it's, you're right. You can, you can, you can, you can shut your mouth or you, and, you know, I talk a lot too. You can shut your mouth or you can just be you. And as long as you got, you got value, not every day is horrible. Yeah. I found, I found happiness and had fun every frigging day while being scared to death sometimes. Yeah. How, no, I get it. How much time did you do? Total. Seven and a half. Seven and a half here. You did what, 20? No, I did 13. 13. I did 13. I did 13. I did 13. That's the hell of the taste. Yeah.

But I got 26 and 4 months. So, you know, it wasn't game time. No, no. It was not. It was, yeah. Did you go initially to a max or medium or a lot? So, you know, first of all, I went in with camp points. Right.

Even though I was on the run, like I never got an escape or anything. So I was on the run. I had like two, I had like two points. Okay. You know, I should have gone straight to a camp. But you got 26 years. You know, unless you're under 20, you got to go to a medium. Go to a medium.

I'm there three years because you have to do 23. Then I go to the low. But I cooperated. The problem is, in the cooperation, it was at the beginning of the financial crisis. So they were like, look, these crimes are three, four, five years old. We've got him for the stuff he did. And these other people, like, fuck, we got banks that are going under for, you know, $800 million or half a billion dollars. Like, these are bigger crimes.

And so they just never really went back and grabbed these people that I had cooperated against. Well, so now I'm screwed, right? Like, I've been locked up. Then what it ends up happening was that I had been asked to do Dateline, NBC. I'd been to be interviewed. I was interviewed. They said they'd consider it substantial assistance. Well, the U.S. attorney said, we did consider it.

It's not. So, oh, no, it gets worse. It gets worse. But then American Greed comes to me. They come to my lawyer, the U.S. attorney, U.S. attorney says, look, I want him to be interviewed. I will definitely consider this substantial assistance. Great. I do it.

I'm brought into the warden's office for two days of interviews. They have me on there. They run the program. We go back. We say, okay, you said you'd consider substantial assistance. She goes, I know we did. It's just not enough. I'm sorry.

Then I have this guy that runs the national mortgage. brokers like education program in the United States and all mortgage brokers have to do three hours of ethics and fraud so he comes to me he says you actually owned a mortgage company you were a FHA lender you were like you're the only person that's hit every crime on the mortgage spectrum and you were a broker and a loan officer I mean you owned a company mortgage company could you help me write this course I said yeah he flies I say you got to get go to the US attorney flies to Atlanta gets on paper I do the course.

They start using the course. We go back to them and we say, you said you consider it substantial assistance. She goes, it's just, it's just not. Jesus, dude. I know. So finally I have, I end up getting a guy who files a 2255 for me.

And we go back and forth, back and forth. And eventually the government offers me one level off my sentence. But they will allow me to go in front of the judge and argue for more. Okay. They fly me up there. I argue for more. I get three levels off.

That ends up being seven years. Now, do you plea out or go to trial? I plead. I'm super guilty. So did you get the three points of that for the plea or not? Yeah, I did. Still didn't it, what, 26 years. Jesus, man.

So I get seven years off my sentence. Then I come back. I'm at the low. I come back. I'm walking around the compound. There's a guy on the compound who did a $57 million Ponzi scheme. And he likes me. He's cooperating.

Of course he does. Like, I'm openly telling people, they're like, hey, Baccaxel, how much time you got? I'm like, well, I got 26 years. but somebody might fuck up and tell me where there's body buried and I'll be out of here next week. And they would go, they'd look at me and say, damn, it's like that, Cox. I go, it's exactly like that, bro. Like, we're not friends.

I don't care what happens to any of these fuckers. Exactly. And he's like, Jesus. We're not breaking bread when we get out. And now I'm at the low. You know what I'm saying? Like, you could be pretty cocky at the low. You could run your mouth.

So I'm walking around with this guy and just a vicious character all the way around really reminded me my dad. He liked me. He was cooperating against some other guys. We're walking around one day. And he's telling me, man, they're not going to give me anything for my cooperation. I go, why do you say that? You know, you might testify. Who knows?

And he goes, yeah, I know. I just don't think so. He says, they think I hid Ponzi scheme money. And I go, well, you didn't. So don't worry about it. Right. And months and months go by. He mentions it a couple times.

So finally one day I look at him and I go, I go, bro, I said, you keep mentioning that you hit, that they think you hit Ponzi scheme money. I said, if you didn't, they won't find it. So don't worry about it. But he did. and he looked at me and he goes he was can I trust you and I went I said probably not

and he started laughing and he goes I did put some money away and I thought you're fucking up so he he ends up telling me a little bit of the money but this guy got like my brother got like 30 grand my ex-wife or soon to be ex-wife got like 150 I'm afraid they're going to turn it in

and I you know because my ex-wife found out I was having an affair you know blah blah my brother's just scared they do tend to frown on that yeah so what ends up happening is I don't actually say anything. I'm actually disappointed in myself because I waited months, months for I happened to be talking to my lawyer and everybody's like, dang, bro, so you really struggled. No, my struggle was I didn't say anything because I thought they didn't want to give me anything

the first time. Right, right. Why would I tell? It's not going to work, be worth it. Yeah. And so it just happened. I was talking to my lawyer. She said, hey, everything going on, what's going on? I was like nothing. And she happened to say, this is a woman who never wanted to help me. She was a weird thing. She goes, she said anything going on in there and I went like you didn't give a fuck when you were representing I was like no not really

and she has nothing if you want to talk about I thought it was just weird and I went well you know what there's a guy in here named Ron Wilson and I tell her

a week later I get called into SIS they put me on phone with a secret service agent I get him on my email I start telling him what's going on with Wilson he starts asking me

ask him this ask him this ask him no shit oh yeah this goes on for six months and he's asking me questions some of the questions i'm going back like bro you want to get me killed yeah like i can't ask how am i going to bring that up right and i've never even heard of this person so anyway i work with them eventually they file for you know they re-indict wilson they indict the brother the sister they get one they both basically get they get probation right he gets six more months and i think that but they recover half a million dollars okay and i think they're never going to give me nothing for that So I end up, they never do.

They say, we don't, they even said, we don't even know what Mr. Cox is talking about. We didn't know, we don't have no idea that he's even working with the U.S. attorney. I mean, working with the Secret Service. Anyway, the point is, I had an actual email from them. So I sent him the email. I had multiple emails. So I sent him the email. I hired that, the same guy, this guy lawyer, uh, ends up representing me again.

He's in prison with me, was in prison. I end up getting my sentence. He gets my sentence to reduce again five more years. By the time that hits. I'm gone like a year and a half later I walk out of prison I mean and listen it was and when that one hit

too same thing listen everybody knows I'm cooperating everybody and I'm just you know you're either it just to me it's just it is what it is I mean I get into I get guys that are like oh you fucking snitch well you be a stand up guy and do

20 fucking six years oh I never said nothing I never said nothing I never I understand that you got a DUI and you did fucking 10 days or I understand you got fucked up and you went to jail for 18 months, okay, but you weren't looking at 26 fucking years, and you don't fucking know me. And first of all, I never thought I could get 26 years. That's insane. It is. It's crazy. For filling out paperwork. And you put it out at 26. Right. But it's the same thing.

It's like, look, bro, I'm filling out paperwork. I didn't break into someone's house. Right. I didn't, I'm not carjacking people. Meanwhile, you got the child porn guy doing 10. If that, you got the child porn guy doing 10. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. You've got, you got, to me, bank robbers that are zip tying people and taking over banks. And getting away with granted, no money, but you're terrifying people. And they're getting six years, seven years. So you got out when? I got in July 2019.

All right. So now when I got out, I was in three years of probation, couldn't touch a computer. Oh, wow. Yeah. Had job offers from Deloitte, from no before payment processors. Actually had offers and wasn't allowed to take them. Got to where I was trying for fast food. well, that cash register, that's a computer.

No. Next thing was, what about a waiter's position? Computer and credit cards? Fuck no. So couldn't get a job. So what kind of trouble did you have trying to get a job? And I'll tell you what happened to me after that. I mean, my judgment commitment, you know, says that I cannot work or consult and

in finance, real estate, development, or construction for some reason. So you can't even consult? No, I had to take, for one year, I had to take a behavior modification class where you meet with a psychiatrist once, you know, once one hour a week. Right. Of course, I have the financial where I have to fill out the form, but I also have to fill out of paperwork every month to tell them how much money came in to come up with my restitution. I still owe like $6 million. I'm good for it. Yeah, I know you are.

have they charged that off we're just going to take your tax returns for the rest of your life oh yeah no no they're going to take them forever um but i other than you know obviously i can't i have to do the piss test and i can't travel or do anything like that although i have traveled i just had to get permission from the court okay um had to get my passport back now keep in mind two of my charges are passport fraud and uh well one was fraudulent application of a passport and one is actually use of a fraudulent. So you filed one or someone else's name for renewal? No, I had like 24 passports.

Nice. I had two dozen passports. I say that. I shouldn't say that. Still, that's pretty fucking nice. It's pretty good, right? 27 driver's licenses in seven different states.

So, so. From the DMV. That was the next question because we had, we had a contact out of Knoxville that would shoot us real Tennessee ones. Real ones. Real ones. But the problem was is when that guy got popped, they just pulled everyone that he had issued driver's licenses to.

And I just went south from there. I just went in. Yeah. Yeah, we were doing that to a degree. Find a little rural one someplace and going like that. Yeah, I would go, you know, as long as, I mean, as long as, like, I get your information in South Carolina, I can go to Tennessee. Right, because they didn't have reciprocity that. They don't, yeah, they don't have, they can, they work on a hub system where they can request, immediately they can request, like, the data.

But they can't get the photo for, like, 48 hours or 72 hours or something. And it's like, okay, if he gives me the ID, I'm good. You know, if there's a question, they just. don't give you the idea. They're like, I don't know. Something's not right. But it wasn't not right because I would walk in with the real social, the real this, the real this, the real this, the real that. I registered a vote. I got this. I got the

registered to vote. I mean, that's, right? That's one of the steps. You got to do that. It's good because these are all real documents. So you're sitting there like, I'm ready to argue. You have a problem. I'm ready to argue because I know everything's good. So how did you get 27 passports?

Through the State Department. They don't ask for everybody always says. It's pre-9-11 or after. Oh, no, this is all after. This is after. I remember that now. Everybody always says, oh, they asked for your fingerprints. No, they don't. As a matter of fact, I just got my passport a year ago to go to Amsterdam to do a show called Inside the Mind of a Con artist.

Okay. I got my passport then. No fingerprints? I did get stopped on the way back in. The way we were doing passports was filing for renewals on people who had never been issued a passport. And they were shooting passports out like that. Yeah, these guys had never had passport. I was getting homeless people.

So I go and I It's so sad Not bad I like where your hands are You see That's what we like We like that outside of the box Thinking

I actually had I made a A statistical survey form and it looked so good And it was a couple pages It was like 17 questions And I would go out to where the homeless people were I made a Salvation Army badge

And I walk out there And I'd say Hey can I talk to you real quick? and they look at me and they go oh yeah what's up i go listen i work for the salvation army we're trying to figure out where we're going to put our next uh indigent uh um our next homeless say you like crackers i got some crackers i came 20 bucks you know i'm not 20 dollars or mad dog what do you want 20 dollars and then would go and borrow like a million million point five in their name yeah so you know maybe not fair

trade but still they were happy they were i had nobody said Well, they couldn't have done it themselves. No, no. There you go. And so I would just say, hey, by the way, 20 bucks, we're trying to figure out, you know, where to put our next homeless facility, just a survey. And they were like, yeah, what's up, man? I'd say, okay, just quick, real quick. I'd give them, you know, here, let's do this, name, date of birth, social security number.

Mothers made name, you know, where you live, or last known address. Where did you live? You ever been a member of the air, of the military? Do you get social security disability? Have you ever had a U.S. passport? Have you had any, any identifications? And if so, in which states? Yeah, so basically you're just fishing in person.

What high school did you go to? Because you can get their high school transcripts. So I get their information. I then order all their information. Right. Get it all in. And then I know he's had an ID here and here or a driver life here here. And then I just go two states over.

And I walk right in and say, listen, I just moved. I lost my license and the move. I don't know what you need. And then you start, I know what you need. Well, says here you're a 5 foot four black man. I know, but I identify as a white. Yes. Yeah.

With a good pair of shoes. So, yeah, so I would get, they would just go in and they give me the ID. Then you turn around. You immediately go and fill out for your, I would immediately fill out for my, you know, my passport. Go get the passport photos. Walk into the U.S. Post Office where they have a passport control. You walk in there, you sit down. You do your little boom, boom, boom.

They go, okay, great. They sign off. They give you your stuff. They take your birth certificate. They mail it back 10 days later. Used to be if you paid extra within about six weeks, you got it. Now it's like three months before. you get it. Right. But yeah, I would get them and I just get them and I've been in and out

on the run I went to Greece, Croatia, Bermuda, Mexico, Jamaica, Italy. I just already said Greece. Right. So yeah, so I've got called stateside. Yes. Yeah, how'd you get called? Girlfriend, girlfriend, you know. Stingray. Yeah. Stingray. Yeah, the stingray. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, stingray. Yeah. That's what got me. So, yeah, straight side. Okay, so I guess I'm turning in an interviewer. No, no, wait, but okay, but you were saying, so that, those were the constraints on me. Like, I was ready to work at McDonald's, by the way.

I was okay with that. So did you have, do you have trouble getting a job or no? I got lucky, and a buddy of mine owned a gym. Okay. And hired me in the halfway house. And then by the time I got out of the gym, I was being asked to go on different people's podcast and I'd written my book okay so I had published the book I've written like seven books so I started publishing books self-publish you have a publisher well so one of them was one of them was

published by a publishing company okay but I mean I got like like a you know of course I was in prison right there's like a $3,500 advance barely make any money on the thing um and I got made more publishing on Amazon self-publishing no kidding than I've ever oh way more way more than I ever made on that. You know, but I also had optioned the film rights to some guys I got him in Rolling Stone magazine, optioned film rights, got out optioned a couple more film rights. So I got out. So I had a little bit there coming in and I had and I started painting.

You saw some, my painting. I like it. For those who don't know his work is outstanding on Patreon. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's where you need to go. So I managed, moved into somebody's spare room. And, and, but I wasn't. Like, I had all these jobs.

offers and every time I call my probation officer it was no no no right right um and so yeah it i would have been back into real estate very quickly or finance or something but i'm i'm restricted from doing that for how long five years five years and i can't get off probation early because i owe six million dollars you're not going to get off that early right unless you violate then they may kill it yeah which is what happened with me oh is that what happened you violated Dude, so, yeah, I'm out, I can't get a job. I'm out in Panama City, Florida. No money, literally cannot get a frigging job.

No money. I'm bummy money from my dad and my sister. I've got a roommate taking care of half the rent, getting food stamps so I can friggin't eat. And, you know, I guess they gave you the same speech, you know, when you get out, find something you care about and a job, and you won't recidivate. So shit, I can't get a job.

What I cared about had a little cat and had the money to feed my cat. I didn't have money to buy toilet paper, man. So went to the Dollar General store, bought the cats and food on the way out, kiosk there, toilet paper. And I'm like, first crime right there. And, of course, you know, it dovetails quickly from that point. But my wife now, Michelle, so my turnarounds, my sister had disowned me. She comes back in my life after the escape.

The, my wife, Michelle, she, I ended up meeting her right after those thefts like that. Move in with her because I was getting ready to get kicked out. out of my house, moved in with her, finally got a job, and the job, the only job we could get was pushing a lawnmower.

That was it. 10 hours a day, $400 a week was the pay on that. Pushing a lawnmower, busting my fucking ass. How old were you? Geez, I was 42 at that point.

43, 43 at that point. 10 hours a day, pushing manual lawnmower. And busted in my ass. I'd come in so tired of a night, literally fall asleep, wake up the next morning,

take a shower, hit it again. And I was happy doing it, though. I was finally doing something. And job ends, you know, grass doesn't grow when it gets cold. I'm in North Florida. Grass isn't growing those four months. So job ends and that reason I commit crime, you know, I got to show Michelle I'm worth it.

I'm like, well, I can bring food in the house, get on the dark web, get credit card details, start putting food orders in. And of course, again, it dovetails because you're like, okay, food, kids need clothes. Christmas is coming up. shit she could use some stuff i get popped controlled delivery on a food order Michelle had no idea what i was doing go back to prison at my sentencing for that um u.s marshals prosecutor probation officer me and michelle Michelle stands up she's like he's a better dad of my kids and their actual father is I'm sitting there crying prosecutor stands up we the prosecutor we think he's a good guy we think it's just a one-time thing probation officer

same thing judge one year probation officer stands back up, says, Your Honor, if you'll give Mr. Johnson a year and a day, he can get the good time, get back to his family. Judge amends the sentence to a year and a day, so I do 10 months. They send me, yeah, yeah, I mean. It's a whole different group than I had. Lucky as fuck. So go back to Texas for 10 months and have this big awakening moment. I'm like, you know, Michelle didn't need me for the shit I could give her.

She just needed me for me. Yeah. So do my 10 months, get out. They kill probation because I violated. They kill probation at that point. point, I can get a job, get married to Michelle, can't get a job, though. You know, I'm the guy that steals everything. Yeah.

So can't get a job and I'm sitting there, you know, trying to find work at doing anything, can't. And I guess you may be the same way. I know what my triggers are. I know what gets me back into crime. Right. Back then it was, I know I'll go so far before I do it again. So I looked at Michelle. I was like, let me see what I can do.

Signed on to LinkedIn, reached out to this guy named Keith Milarski, FBI out of Pittsburgh. He was involved with all of these arrests back in those days, and I sent him a message. I was like, hey, you did a great job, no hard feelings, a lot of respect for you. I'd like to be legal. Dude responds within two hours, man. Takes me under his wing, references, everything else. From there, identity theft counsel does the same thing. The CNP group, Card Not Presidents there for online credit card fraud.

They hear about me, hire me to be a keynote speaker. From there, Microsoft hears about me, hires me to consult with them, and that lays enough trust in the industry where today you know i've got my show the brett johnson show i speak at quantico i um ambassador for a arp this year i uh arcos labs they started this new sea level position called chief criminal officer first one on the planet all those other stuff i'm talking to riddley scott all these people about doing the show i'm i you know i'm serious and i want to ask you about this stuff too but i i i leave a very blessed life these days and i don't deserve it but am grateful to have it and the question i have you know we we've laughed a lot about 27 passports

shit like that but it's you know we can laugh about that but at the same time there there's with me there's been this this just shift in the mentality yeah i think about breaking law all the time but i'm not going to do that and and where did that shift come with you um good question so Well, it's not a good question because, like, I've had such a good interview, you know, and it's been fun and we've been laughing and... And then we get sober. Right. And the problem is, is emotionally, when I start to talk about it or think about it, I tear up. Like, when you're like, you know, I cried like that, listen, cried like a small child at my sentence.

I mean, just like... And when I think about the person I was and the person I am, although I laugh and I love. I love that time in my life, and I love doing those things, but I think about, like when you went to jail. Right. The one thing I know when the one thing you never once laid in bed and thought about was, God, I miss that nice car. God, I miss that nice car. You don't think that shit at all. All you thought about was I miss Michelle.

I miss my fucking kids. I miss my cat. I miss like, that's it. That's it. All I ever gave a shit. You don't worry about that material stuff at all. Absolutely. And that's exactly what happened was I went to prison, angry, pissed off, furious, didn't deserve this much time.

These piece of garbage. Same. And I did. And I was reasonable. I was like, you know, yeah, okay. I broke the law, but I didn't deserve this much time. Right. And even to this day, I'm like 26 years coming on.

It's a lot of time. It's a lot of time. But it's like you don't get to choose. Right. So, you know, you're putting yourself at their mercy the moment you do that. So, you know, I think that I started thinking that way. met a buddy in mine. He got like 30, he actually got 40 years.

And, you know, we started talking. And one of the things he had told me one time was, you know, you can't go to prison and continue to think in the same manner that led you to prison and leave prison and not expect to come back. Right. And I was, you know, and that's more than just, oh, no, no, but I'm not going to commit crime. He's like, it's not the crime. It was your thought process. Yeah. So, and you'll eventually commit a crime, you know, if you keep thinking like that.

So what happened is, you know, went to prison, wrote a memoir, my memoir. Okay. And when I was writing that memoir, I ended up writing the first draft, which was horrible. I had to rewrite it, read several books about how to write. Right. And ended up writing this little tiny book and I wish I could remember it. And the woman was like, look, you need to look into your life. One of the things you need to do is look in your life and figure out what the key moments were that helped create the person that you

are today so that it will explain to the reader it will give the reader reasons what helped craft you sure and i used to hate to think about to complain about my childhood or anything you know i don't want to say that because you meet i mean you meet guys that were like chained to fucking they were locked up in the basement or their parents beat them almost to death or they you know horrible things that it was like i didn't have that you know my dad's an alcoholic you know and it's like what am i crying about daddy didn't love me enough like but the truth is i rewrote that book And as I wrote that book and really started focusing on that, I started realizing that there were definite things that led me to be the person that committed those crimes. And then the other thing I focused, started realizing was like, what a selfish, narcissistic prick I am.

And I fight it today. I fight it to this day. Like, guys are like, well, if you know that about yourself, you can, you know, at least you can help change that. I try. I mean, I like being an asshole sometimes. I agree. And that's the worst part it is. It's like you're trying to change someone who just loves himself.

That's hard. But one of the things is like, what really started bothering me was I took Art app. Did it doing you good? It did after for me. I think it did great for me. Although I had learned most of these lessons by the time I got in it. Right. But I really felt like it helped me really kind of figure out what my issues were.

And I remember, I didn't notice it so much, but everybody. that talked to me on the phone. I talked to my ex-wife. And at five minutes in, she'd be like, okay, what's going on? Yep. And I'd go, what? She'd go, we've been talking for five minutes. You know my kids' names. You're asking how Nick is. Her new husband. You're not just focusing on you. Yeah. You haven't fucking said, you haven't told me what's going on with you. And I've asked twice. And I'm like, I mean, nothing. I'm here. I'm doing whatever. I'm just wondering whatever happened with, you know, with Ethan. I know he was six. She's like, what's going on? So, because the truth is when I have most conversations, I am typically barely listening and most of the time I'm

really just waiting for an opportunity so that I can turn the conversations that I can talk about me. Right. And that is such a selfish, fucked up thing. And when I see myself telling myself at the beginning of a conversation, don't do it, don't do it, don't do it. And then 20 minutes later, I realize we've been talking about me for 10 minutes. And I think, you're a fucked up individual. I mean, we are. Right. We are. But, you know, that's the thing, though. So even today, like, I took this nine-hour drive to come down and talk to you today. Which I appreciate, which I even asked Tyler over.

I was like... He's driving? First of it was he was driving. Secondly, because when he was saying to me, when we were talking, I was like, you're telling me that Johnson's going to come on my pocket. He knows I can't pay him, right? He knows I'm broke, right? Did you tell... He didn't ask for any money?

No, no. You need to make sure. Nothing? Nothing? You know, and he, yeah, I was... No, and the reason why. I do every podcast for free. I don't ask for cash on that because it's also a type of therapy for me.

You know, I try to find out something new about myself every single time. I wanted to talk to you because we've got that South Carolina relationship. You know, you have that U.S. most wanted thing too. So I was like, this will be a good conversation. I wanted to ask you that question that I just asked you. I took a nine-hour drive and I do these long-ass drives because I used to walk this track when I was in prison. And I would think every single day about my life, the people I had. fucked over everything else and on these drives i get to do that again yeah to consider everything

work through these issues everything um it's not surprising me what you were talking about you know writing that that's that therapy again where you if you're truthful which the first time i wasn't right i wasn't and that was a problem but if you are i mean you you really sit there and you examine yourself and you get these answers that sometimes you don't want but by god they're there and you can't deny them what's around and you know what's funny too because i've anybody watching this is watching like i've probably said this a thousand times is that you know had millions all the money i needed in the world before a prison i'm on i'm on uh uh zan i'm not well yeah i've got a prescription for zanax um paxel uh i'm miserable i'm unhappy i've got i got a girlfriend

and a girl. My girlfriend's got a girlfriend. I've got tons of money. I got great vehicles. I've got I'm traveling nonstop. I'm living great. I'm not concerned about being on the run. And even prior to that, when I wasn't on the run, I was just committing crime. I was just miserable, unhappy. And then I get out of prison with nothing. And I used to love to tell people that I want it. They were like, what are you going to do when you get out? I'm like, I'm going to work at McDonald's. And because I want to work at McDonald's. I want to live in someone's spare room. I want to start at the bottom because I was so much happier in prison and so much happier getting out of prison than I ever was prior to that having everything I ever fucking wanted. Because to me, it's like I'm so, like, you know, it is. It's the whole, I hate the term, I'm blessed, you know, but I am blessed. I'm thrilled, I'm happy. I have people around me that like me because they want to be around me, not because I'm going to make them 300,000 next next month or they're getting 50,000 here or 100,000 here, or they're just hanging out with me to fucking hang out with me.

Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, because when you get arrested, you find out that those friends ain't. Oh, no. No, the more money I made for people, the quicker they hung up the phone, if they picked it up at all. The people that I never made any money for showed up and came to see me, would come visit me, would send me, would look stuff up for me, send me books, would, it was such a reality fucking check.

for me to go to present. You know, with me, and I'm really no different on that, it's, if I would have gotten out and immediately went into, you know, the speaking, the consulting, the bullshit I do today, I wouldn't have appreciated any of it, any of it. But I didn't do that. It took me years to build up the trust in that industry and, you know, applying this, you know, 18 hours a day of bam, bam, bam.

You mentioned before, you know, you wake up, you work 80 hours a week. I work 80 hours a week. I wake up working. I go to sleep working. And, you know, it's that, the ability to build yourself up from nothing to that success in a legal way screams. I mean, it's just by God, yes, at that point. I've done it. I did it without doing anything wrong.

And it's me. And, you know, yeah, you were a criminal. I was, I was too. But to show that we're able to succeed in a legal lifestyle as well. talks about the character of the person. And I, you know, I'm giving myself credit too, but you too, man. I mean, it's, it's really, there aren't many people out there able to do that. You think of everybody that comes out of prison, you know, at least, you know, under 40,

you're an 87% recidivism rate right now. Most of those guys are going to go back. They don't have a support group. They don't have the, uh, the ability to turn their lives around. And it's just the circular thing. And we're very, you're right. We're very blessed that we've been able to do that. that we've got that support group people that help us.

And then what else can you say in that? Yeah. You know, it's funny the support group thing because like I used to, like I can't mess up. Like, like, if you had a support group, I think it would almost be detrimental to me because I'm like, I'm like, I had nothing. I can't, you understand, I cannot screw up. I cannot. And listen, it was so bad.

I think I told Boge at this the other day. Was somebody I was at work and somebody said, like I was saving every penny. Right. I had somebody goes hey Matt um I'm going to uh where they going uh whatever a sandwich shop we're going to sandwich shop you want me to get you something and I went um no I'm good I got I got a bag lunch from the halfway house you know right right right peanut bird jelly or whatever it was baloney and um I said no I got I got a bag lunch and and it his name was Leanne and Leanne goes she said um do you Matt she goes it's come on you eat that every day she was get get a sandwich from Jimmy Johnson and I

went no no I said I'm good she goes come on and I went she was she was I said I said, honestly, I don't have any money. I don't have money to do that. And she looked at me and she said, it's fine. I'll get it for you. And I went, okay, listen, Leon, you're not understanding. Let me be perfectly clear. She was there. My boss is there. Another employee is there. And I said, if out of the goodness of your heart, you want to buy me a sandwich, I said, I said, that's fine. I'll take it. I said, but if you're expecting some kind of a reciprocation from me, I said, like two days from now, I'll give you the money back or next week, I'm going to buy you a sandwich. I said, I am not in a position to buy you a sandwich. I will not be in a

position to buy you a sandwich for years possibly at the rate I'm going. And I said, at the rate I'm going. I said, so if you want to give me a sandwich, that's great. I will take it. If not, I have a bag of lunch. Thank you. And she looked at me and she went, I looked around at everybody. And she goes, I'm going to get you a sandwich. And I was like, I was just that. I was that like, like I bought $300 worth of clothes from Walmart in the halfway house. I still have blue jeans that I'm wearing to this day. And I can afford by it. but it's just like the materialistic stuff just drop down to nothing for me like I don't want it everything I buy is from Ross or Marshalls or that's it like I'm not I'm not I couldn't I don't think

I physically could would be able to pay like 150 bucks for a shirt now and back then I was paying three 400 bucks for blue jeans like blue cheese they sell them at Walmart for $29 are you serious what was your brand back then you're paying 300 bucks for oh they were diesel Diesel, diesel. I don't even know if they're still out. Like, I know nothing about clothes now. I barely knew it then. But the girl I was with, she's like, oh, these are diesel. You have to get diesel.

Yeah, my stripper fiancé, she likes sevens. That's what I remember. She tells me, well, I never done anything like that. You know, I was paying like 80 bucks for luckies back then. And she looks at me one day, I need some jeans. I'm like, where do you want to go? Sacks? And I'm like, so she, we walk in the sacks and she goes over to this counter.

And I'm looking at shirts. I'm like, shit, that's two, three hundred bucks for a shirt. I'm not going to buy that bullshit. So I look over at her and she's at the gene section. She's just taking one pair after another. There's bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. Bam, I'm like, holy fuck. So I walk out, I'm like, how much are those?

Oh, they're $230 a pair. I'm like, how many pair you got? That was it, man. I'm like, shit. They're expensive. They're expensive. Strippers, I mean. Yeah, they're expensive.

Yeah, they're expensive. Yeah, they're expensive. They have high tastes. she was a from what i understand she was able to turn her life around so i'm i'm thankful about that but i mean jesus christ so now you're you're doing the you're doing the channel and i've got so speaking gigs i've got the speaking so for those who may be interested we've got the brett johnson show on youtube tune into it but i i uh speak across the and i'll put the we'll put the link in the thank put the link in the description i appreciate that yeah i've got um speak across the

planet. I mean, I literally travel all over the damn place speaking. I've got the documentaries in the work. I'm talking with North South productions for a Discovery TV show, which is basically Brett Johnson scams you is what it is. Okay. So talking about that, got a book in the works. I'm actually talking to one of the guys that's responsible for the Irishman. Talking about this Friday on that. Chief Criminal Officer of Arcos Labs. I mean, I, I'm doing all right. Yeah. I'm doing all right. you know it's funny to just try and just kind of sounds so hokey i hate to even say you know you just try and do the right thing it's like like good things start to kind of happen it does and you know my motivation these days and and it really is one of these wake-up calls when

when i talk to somebody and they finally realize it i'm like don't give a shit about money yeah it's about doing the right thing and i'm going to call it out don't give a shit who it is i'm that guy typically piss off somebody every week about calling out a company or something like that about doing wrong. But that's who I am these days. Are you interviewing people on your channel? I'm not yet. I've had the, so Justin Pierce, I've had him on there twice.

He's this kid out of Arkansas. He's a good kid. He's, he's one of these guys that needs some mentorship, you know? So I'm trying to make sure that he's going to be all right. Had him on twice. My studio is not like your nice studio here. My studio is basically a box. We're wedged into the corner.

Well, no. But on film. this this looks like they're like man they're in a massive nice studio so it's like it's good size man it's good size but mine is is is very small literally i'm the only person you can fit in the room we're going to try to buy a house next year and get a studio where i can bring people in in person i don't want to do that zoom bullshit if i can avoid it i just i just i didn't either i resisted the whole time but right to try it to get someone to come here is such a pain in the ass and that's why luckily like i'm He's here. We've got like three channels here. So usually if somebody gets here, we just milk everything we can.

Yeah, you should. Absolutely. I mean. Well, Tyler, he was like, you know, do you want to do it on Zoom? I was like, no, I'll do it in person. When he told me that, because I just assumed Zoom for sure. I was out. Okay, so he wants to do a Zoom?

And he's like, no, no, he's coming there. I was like. He said he would be there. Did you tell him I can't pay him? Like, I, you know. No, I'm going to show up in person. I don't like that Zoom. I don't like that Zoom stuff at all.

So, yeah, that's what I do. And you're, so you're a painter now. Yeah. And I like the word. Painer. I do. I mean, I love this shit right here. This is great.

I really do. I mean, yeah, these are like modified screen prints. But they're all different. Yeah, everything I do is different. They're all unique. But I also just do regular painting. Yeah, I like the, I like the, what are they, what are the prisoner pictures that you're taking, the criminal pictures that you're painting? The criminal ones?

Yeah, are those a Patreon that we saw coming in that you show? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's my Patreon. So who are they? Oh, they're all con men. It's like Charles Ponzi. It's like, it's a Frank Abagnale. I've done like I've done like I've only been doing it for like four months I like it's nice man well I got guys that have them on the wall so think about if they keep paying then like by the end of the year they've got 12 or so they got a whole wall filled yeah so it's it's fun that's good that's good I thought it's a good and it's it's working um yeah you know and I you know I mentioned to John earlier it's it's I'm a firm believer that one of the main reasons that that we commit crime is so we can have that fuck you money that nobody's going to tell us what to do we're able to tell somebody get fuck

fucked at the end of the day. Right. And even today, I'm still looking for that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Look, like I said, I figure it will happen eventually. And the truth is, if it doesn't happen, like, I'm okay.

Like, I'm good here. Yeah, before you leave, I got to give you, uh, uh, everybody calls him John. And I should, because I, for the men, I'm in prison, it's Boziac. You know, everybody, so I mean, I got to give you his book. I wish I'd sent his book to you beforehand. Well, we'll talk to him and bullshit around with him. Yeah, I know. Like the whole time you've been talking, it's like I'm seeing all the, like,

how you were communicating. The first time I, ICQ, is that what it's called? Yeah. Yeah. First time I'd ever heard about that was when he explained it. As you were explaining the tracks, he had explained that. Like, all that's in his book. He broke because he started to go Carter.

Right, right. You know, these days you've got telegram, you've got Wicker, you got all these other channels that are pretty damn impressive. Yeah. You know, so, yeah. Well, let's wrap it up so you can go over there. So is that? I appreciate it.

Yeah. We're good. Okay. Hey, I appreciate you guys. You like the. Hey, I appreciate you guys checking this out or checking out the interview. Do me a favor. If you like the interview, share the video, hit the like button, hit the bell so you get

notified of videos just like this. Leave me a comment and I will try and respond to all of the comments. Hit up my Patreon. or if you just like to send me cash, I'm good with that too. I appreciate it. Thank you very much and see you.