Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - Fired Executive Exposes The Greed Of Big Pharma | Alec Burlakoff

Episode Date: August 24, 2024

Fired Executive Exposes The Greed Of Big Pharma | Alec Burlakoff

Book club on Monday. Gym on Tuesday. Date night on Wednesday. Out on the town on Thursday. Quiet night in on Friday. It's good to have a routine. And it's good for your eyes too. Because with regular comprehensive eye exams at Specsavers,

you'll know just how healthy they are. Visit Spexsavers.cavers.cai to book your next eye exam. Eye exams provided by independent optometrists. You think everything, right? You obsessed. You ruminate at night. But at the same time, the ego in me kept saying, you are moving so much business. I was delusional and just in denial.

Also felt that I needed to be a man and not show fear and just keep leading and keep charging forward. Hey, this is Matt Cox. and I'm here doing an interview with Alec Berlakov, and he's, well, one, he's recently released from a federal prison. He has a very unique story surrounding the pharmaceutical industry, and it's a little bit different than the typical stuff that I do, but super interesting story. And so do me a favor. If you like the channel and if you like the videos that I'm putting out, do me a favor and go to my Patreon or... Go to, you know, you can go in the description and there's a link to Patreon. Also, YouTube has a new feature where you can go down to the, it's the control bar.

You slide the bar sideways and you can actually donate. You can actually, you know, it's called the thank you button. And you can click on it. You can donate like $1.99 to the channel. You can donate like a dollar, I think it's $1.99, $2.99, $4.99. I think there's even one for $49.99. but I don't expect anybody to do that. So anyway, if anybody who's interested or wants to help out, $1.99, believe it or not, does help out. So I appreciate that. We just kind of talked. We talked on the

phone earlier, like you were just recently released from federal prison, but let me, let's kind of go back and start at the kind of at the beginning, like just where were you, where were you born, you know, that sort of thing. Yeah. So I was born in Long Island, New York from a town called Kings Park. Not a town that a whole lot of people have heard of unless they're from Long Island. It's just mirrors up to or sides up to where Smithtown is. So a lot of people heard of Smithtown or Comack, Huntington, Dick Sills. But yeah, Kings Park, kind of a middle class, lower to middle class, blue collar town, mostly Italian, a couple Jewish families, me being one of you know a handful yeah okay i mean your parents were your parents married were they

you know in and out of prison were they you know you know your father did you know how was their family dynamic yeah so um my parents growing up were married um they got divorced uh when i was in college so you know i grew up with mom and dad in the house um my dad was um in the printing business he had a printing factory, hard worker, pretty much, you know, worked, was gone before I went to break, before I went to school and got home sometimes for dinner, you know, he tried. My mother was at the time of stay-home mom until I got into like middle school at junior high, then she started working. Money always seemed to be a factor in the house. You know, it always seemed to be, you know, a catalyst of stress.

Sometimes we had more money than not, but it always seemed to be a subject. You could always feel the pressure in the house. And you know, my dad did what he had to do to make sure the bills were paid. There was a lot of a lot of fighting in the house. You know, my mother and father, I could always remember yelling and screaming and maybe even, you know, worse. I remember just, you know, my dog being kicked and, you know, just it was very volatile. I remember, you know, I had an older brother. You know, I remember us, you know, sitting on the top of the stairs looking down and just seeing things that, you know,

we didn't like to see and just made us uncomfortable. We all kind of walked on eggshells in the house. It all just depended on, again, what was really going on in my eyes, you know, financially and what kind of move my dad was in. You know, I was fortunate that I did have a mom and dad in the house. And they both love me very much. The one commonality that we all had as a family is my brother and I both played sports. Basketball was the main thing that we really played.

And my mother and father, from what I remember, never missed a game for either myself or my brother. So even if my dad had to dip out of work for an hour and a half to catch a game, and then go back and work till, you know, 11, 12 midnight, or even through the night to get a printing job done, he would do that. Okay. So did you, you went to high school in the same, you grew up in the same general area. You guys never moved or anything. Did you go to high school in that area?

No. I moved, we moved to Florida from Long Island when I was in, I was starting the eighth grade. So starting, I just finished my first year at junior high. And my brother was starting this junior year in high school. We moved down to Florida. So that was a tough move. for both me and my brother. Never really know exactly why we moved other than, again, you know, finances. You know, pretty business was going south. There was a lot of issues. And I think my dad had just had enough and somehow felt that the sun, you know,

in the sunshine state was going to make everything better, really. Well, I mean, let's face it, the, you know, dollar goes a lot further in Florida than it does in New York, too. Yeah. Yeah. but you know we downsized you know we lived in a in in new york in long island you know in a in a neighborhood that wasn't extremely wealthy we were or we seemed to be had the illusion created the illusion that we were one of the wealthiest in the neighborhood we had a nice

size home um when we moved to florida we just lived in you know in a small kind of townhouse um it was real real small compared to where we came from but um yeah we just thought that the some was going to make everything better but the fact the matter is uh never got better it only actually got worse so where did you did so you went to high school in florida yeah i went to high school in florida uh coral springs florida uh tarabella high school uh you know coral springs was supposed to be uh at the time like considered like a really nice um yeah area to grow up and interestingly enough actually i went to high school in coral springs but we moved to a town adjacent called tamarack which you could get a lot more for your money right I

actually remember my my parents lied about our address so that it would look like we lived in the Coral Springs so we could go to the better schools yeah did you did you go straight to college or did you go to college at all or yeah yeah no so I you know my dad and mom you know they were they were all about us going to college and they were very strict. My dad was very strict with regards to our grades and making sure that we went to school and so forth. A lot of pressure. And yeah, my brother went to college and played basketball at a Division III school until he got kicked off the team. And I went to, I went straight from high school to Florida State University and, you know, graduated there

and actually went on to get my master's in social work at Florida International University. So were you in your brother ever in trouble? I mean, did you guys ever, you're saying your brother got kicked off the team. Were you guys? Well, for me, growing up, I was never in trouble. I was, you know, a good kid for the most part. You know, I mean, I got in a couple fights like everybody did, you know, especially moving down from New York and being new to the area.

But no, I was never in trouble. My brother was in trouble his whole life. And that was also, you know, a big thing in the home, you know, a lot of stress revolved around my brother and what was happening, what he was doing. You know, he was down the road diagnosed as bipolar, you know, and hard bipolar. I mean, you know, I majored in psychology and then got a master's in social work. I learned a lot about that stuff. And there's no question that he was probably even, you know, somewhere along the lines of, I don't know, borderline personality disorder. I mean, my brother had a tragic ending in his life, and, you know, he's passed away, you know, at a really young age in 2013.

So, you know, my brother was, you know, of course, in a lot of fights, but, you know, he was in high school. He was, you know, a big, big marijuana dealer. In college, you know, he was a bookmaker, you know, handled all the gaming in the school. and that's eventually what he got kicked off the team for. He joined the Marines, you know, on a whim. You know, he got kicked out of the Marines, dishonorable discharge for, you know, he just, you know, again, my brother and I are two and a half years apart.

So, you know, being in constant turmoil, never known when the other shoe was going to drop everybody. And, you know, and he could lose his temper at any second. You say one slight thing wrong with the dinner table and she's being thrown everywhere and people are yelling, screaming, crying, and, you know, it's just, um, listen, you know, I was very fortunate to grow up in a home with a mom and dad that, that love me and never missed the game. And, you know, my dad would coach a lot of my teams, but behind the scenes, you know, there was always a lot going on in the home. You know, very, uh, you know, I would have

friends come over sometimes, but, you know, the friends that came over knew me very well and were accepting of the fact that at any given time, she could just go crazy, you know. Right. Yeah. Yeah, there's, you know, it's, it's, every home has issues. Some are just, you know, worse than others. Yeah. But, um, so I, so how did you get into doing pharmaceuticals? You've got a degree in social, you know, I want to say in social work, right? So, yeah, how did that, how does that end up dovetailing into? pharmaceutical sales. Yeah. So in the end of the day, I fell victim to the mighty dollar. In my heart and in my brain, I knew what I wanted to do. I went to summer camp my whole life

from the age of eight to like 21. And I love working with, you know, I started as a camper, but I, you know, I love being a counselor and a group leader and teaching basketball and coaching. And in my heart, I knew what I wanted to do. And in my heart, I knew what I thought was going to make me happy, but when I graduated with my master's, I was already working as a part-time physical education teacher at a private school and teaching like three or four phys ed classes a day while I was working on my master's. And then when I finished my master's, they gave me a job as a guidance counselor at the school. And I really love working with the kids and made me feel good, you know, but I worked at a private school where their kids were very affluent and parents were as well.

And, you know, I mean, the best way to sum it up, there was a plethora of reasons why I left, but the best way to sum it up is I was doing the carpool lane or, you know, and watching a pickup lane, kids got to get picked up from school. One of the fathers were smoking a cigar and a Bentley convertible. And I went out to him and said, sir, you know, could you put the cigar out? You know, we have a non-smoking policy. He took another puff, blue it in my face and said petty rules from petty people. And that was just a very pivotal time for me.

You know, my, my wife, Stephanie, was getting ready to have a child. And I just said, you know what, I'm done. You know, I got to go make some money. I'm not, I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to allow people to talk down to me, make me feel small. And, you know, I'm looking. at all these kids and these people with money and how they're living and I'm remembering what it was like growing up always worrying about money and I just

said you know Alex you got to get realistic like you you can't just sit around and play ball with the kids you got to you got to try to make some money and there was a parent at the school I worked with the kid very closely who was always in a lot of trouble and good kids market ended up being very successful of course but you know, the parents said, Alec, what do you see yourself doing? Like, I don't see yourself. I don't see you doing this forever. And I said, sir, you know, what do you see me doing? What do you got? What do you think? And he's like, I see you in sales. And he was a doctor. And he said, you know, I've got some connections. And I'm a big prescriber of this particular pharmaceutical company. You know, I said, you get me an interview. And, you know, I'm there. And I got an interview. I ended up not getting that particular offer. I got beat out by another guy who was already working in the industry, but I'd already had my heart and my mindset and doing this thing.

So I just kept pursuing, pursuing, pursuing, and eventually I had a pharmaceutical company and I gave me a job. And, you know, from that point, I mean, I never turned back, you know, I was full speed ahead. Like, I turned in, I turned into a different person, you know, I saw a little, a little glimpse of money and what it could do and how it could make me feel. And, you know, the switch just kind of. clicked. And it just got, I mean, honestly, my drive and my determination to not only be

successful and make money, but to be number one at every company and every position, whatever I did, just literally took over. You feel like that, but do you feel like, and you feel like all that kind of stemmed from that, from the guy with the cigar? Well, I think the guy with the Sikar was the final straw. I think all of it stemmed from me growing up in a home where it was always about, you know, what kind of day my dad had at work, what kind of you had, what kind of month you had, and so forth, you know, and it just all culminated, you know, at that point where it was like, you know, Alec, you thought that you were going to be able to do something different than your dad.

or even your brother who was already in the car business working six days a week 80 hours a week you thought that you were going to be different you were going to be smarter you were going to be better but in the end of the day you know you you realize that you too were going to be subject to having your life revolve around uh money yeah it just it just to me like that guy that, you know, that event, it just makes me think of just, you know, pride. Like, to me, I always think, like, every bad decision I ever made was just always seems to be, the crux of it, it always ends up being my pride. Like, I didn't want to, you know, take a step backwards.

I didn't want to do this. I didn't want to not be able to do this. I didn't want people to think, I didn't want to look like a failure. failure in other people's eyes. And as a result of that, I made a bad decision. Like, not a decision that was good for me, it was going to make me happy, but a decision that was going to make me look good. And it was just, like, I look back and I just think of all these decisions that I made

that were just pride related. And every single one of them seems to be, have been detrimental to me. And so when you said that, my first thought was, oh, wow, like that guy hurt his pride. And he said, you know what, I'm done. Like that, you're saying that was the last straw and I get it. The last straw of you having to be around all these people with money and saying, man, even though the truth is, you might have had $30 million and been miserable. All those people may be miserable.

Oh, I mean, I know some of them were. I mean, you hear it make true to kids and their, you know, the parents are fighting and there's divorce. And even those guys who think, you know, they had so much money and then something goes wrong and they lose it, you know, because high risk, high reward. But yeah, pride is huge. Ego. I mean, you know, people are really close to me. And, you know, my ex-wife, I mean, they know that I am the most egotistical man in the world.

While at the same time being, I'm actually being the most insecure man. I feel like ego and insecurity go handy. Oh, absolutely. absolutely yeah yeah it's like every narcissist out there you know me especially me included that narcissism is predominantly based on just total insecurity like you you know you it's it's just like a front it's just a complete front you know it's just a thin veneer a hundred percent i mean i look back at it one of the guys that was a phys ed teacher with me and he's still doing it you know over 30 years and i'm thinking that's the guy who's really

secure with himself and who he is and probably really happy. I don't know. But listen, the happiest people I know are the guys that are like, you know, like they sell cars and, you know, they work 50 hours a week, but they teach their little kids, you know, their kids, little league team and they get to go to the game. They get to, you do those things. And, and, you know, me as I kind of grew up or, you know, entered adulthood, I always thought, oh, I don't want to be that guy. That guy's miserable. The truth is, you know, 20 years later, you're like wow that guy made the right decisions you know for him and if you've given him you know like it wasn't he his priorities were vastly different than mine and his priorities were

were true for him mm-hmm it made him happy like uh you know and then you know the guys that have you know five million dollars in the bank and it seems like they got the world by the balls and the truth is every time you talk to them they're bitching and moaning and miserable i know a couple guys like that every time i talk to him i think are you serious like You've got a, you're driving a $100,000 sports car. Your, your wife has a $150,000 sports car. You've owned multiple businesses. You look like you've got the world by the, by the balls.

And yet you, every time I talk to you, it's complaining, complaining, complaining. I'm not sure how I'm going to pay this month's rent. Right. You just got back from Italy. Right. You know, people are just. It's so crazy, man. I mean, I'm on Facebook and I watch all my friends.

and I see all the things they do and the places they go, but the ones that I actually talk to, not just look at their Facebook page, but actually get on the phone and talk with them or sit down and speak with them in person. A lot of these people are not so happy. So, you know, this time around I'm saying to myself, you know, how do I learn from my experience and how do I find happiness this time? But I always ask myself, you know, when I was going through all this, you know, why couldn't I be happy? Why couldn't I be like the guy that taught phys ed classes with me? Why couldn't I be happy?

Why couldn't I be content? I mean, that was one of the biggest issues with me is I was never content. You know, it was never enough. You know, and that's a horrible way to be, you know. He wants Khan Bank of America out of $250,000. using nothing but a fake ID and his charm. He is the most interesting man in the world. I don't typically commit crime, but when I do, it's bank frog.

Stay greedy, my friends. Support the channel. Join Matthew Cox's Patreon. Well, so I'm sorry, I got you all this topic, but so you entered at that point, you did take a job in the pharmaceutical industry. in sales right and so how did that you said you were like striving to be not not only make money but you wanted to be number one at what you were doing yeah i mean i think there was like 500 reps in my division or whatnot and um my first company i was there nine months um within three or four i was

number one out of the 500 um you know i had a very specific strategy you know focus 98 percent of my time on 2% of the customers or in this situation, my physicians. I was all about targeting, you know, quality time. A lot of these guys in sales and all sales are about quantity, quantity, quantity. Yeah, that's not how I work. It's just, I don't know if it's the ego. I don't know what it is, but I've always had my own strategy, and I always believe that it's better than everybody else's.

It's the egotomaniac in me. But in sales, it worked, quite frankly. I mean, I just spent 98% of my time with 2% of my customers. I would find one or two guys that I connect with, and I'd just move in with them. You know, most companies, they want you to see 9 to 12 doctors a day. I would see two. That would be my goal. If I saw more than two, then I knew that I wasn't succeeding in my strategy,

which was to live, eat, and breathe with the couple of guys that took to me and make them feel like, like I would. wanted to feel. I'm to make them feel like they were the most important people in the world. I would, I would identify a target that kind of took to me. And they would say, Alec, like you've been here three, four hours. Don't you need to go see other doctors? Like, my other reps come and go. Like, they're always in a rush. Right. I'm like, no. I'm like, you're the guy I need to see. And I don't care what happens. Like, I'm going to spend the whole week with you. I'll spend the next month with you, whatever it takes for you to understand the value that

I see in you and the importance that it's going to take for me to give you everything that I need as far as resources, time, attention, opportunity to represent my company and be a speaker and talk with other doctors. I would just try to figure out what it is that they need from me as opposed to letting them know what I need from them. You know, I just think sales is all about catering to your customer and giving them what they need, not coming in with your own agenda. Your agenda will follow over a long period of time. Eventually, the customer will say, Alec, you've been great. Like, you've added value to me and my practice, my patience, my bottom line. Like, what can I do for you? And, you know, that's, to me, that's the best way to make a sale.

So, but within nine months. Matt, I was let go. You know, that was par for the course, me just striving to be number one, putting it all on the line, high stakes, high rewards, and sometimes, you know, you lose it all. They rolled out a marketing program, a very aggressive marketing program where we would speak with physicians about running a query of all their patients and identifying. people that could potentially be candidates to be switched from their current medication to a new medication and then we were going to arrange with the pharmacies to have those samples of the medication sent to the patient with a letter from the doctor telling them like to switch the entire details of the program are not important for the purpose of this podcast what's

important is they asked you know when they rolled out the program you know who can do this who thinks they can do this very few people even raised their hand because they questioned just the magnitude of how aggressive this program was right you know people sat there and they're like yeah i don't really think this is for me i don't know if i'm really comfortable i raised my hand along with like maybe two or three out of 500 and said it's not a question of you know whether or not i think i could do it it's a question of how fast And within a week, I had, you know, I had hundreds of patients receiving free samples in a letter to switch medications. Unfortunately, the doctors who ran the query moved so fast that they didn't scrub the list.

And, you know, some of the patients were, you know, under the age, you know, they were minors. Some of the patients were deceased and their spouses received it. You know, it was just a bad list. And, you know, they ended up going to, you know, new. news outlets and authorities and it came out in the papers and of course the company, you know, did what they had to do, right? They had to basically say, you know, this was a rogue employee, he's meeting to his own drum, and, you know, they let me go and a couple others. You know, in that particular case, I actually did sue because, you know, I really did do what I was

instructed to do. Right. And I was new to the industry and just felt like, wow, they just literally took my feet right out from under me because they called me to a hotel sat me down within five seconds said alec you know we're we're uh we decided to separate you from the company have your wife bring the company car with the computer with the printer you know with everything we gave you and be on your way you know and my wife pulled up pregnant um and you know crying and you know and i was like wow i'm like this is how it's going to be in corporate America huh you know well I'm already in you know I already took the dive so let's just let's see where this thing takes you Alec and you know toughen up roll up your sleeves and

get ready for battle you know and that's that's what happened from there so where did you end up so you know within two or three days you know again I learned another lesson in corporate America that people want somebody who can sell and and And within two, three days, I got a call from another manager with another company that had a competitive product of the one I was just selling, reached out to me and said, heard what happened, heard a lot about you from some of my reps in the field that you're a force to be reckoned with. I have a position open.

I'd like to interview you. And within a week, I had another job. It was actually a decent promotion, more money, an opportunity to sell to specialist, psychiatrist, as opposed to primary care physicians. And then pharmaceuticals, you start entry level, calling on family docs, primary care positions, internal medicine, general practitioners, and then as you advance,

you would start to sell up to specialists. So it was a promotion for me. And I was like, okay, here we go. Let's do this again. So is this, how long did this go on? I mean, how long were you in the industry before you, you know, ultimately? ended up working for the company that you know that where basically you were

indicted like what what how did that come about yeah I mean was that the same company no no no I was in the industry like 17 years before I am really yeah I mean yeah I started off as a rep carrying the bag you know standing in the middle of the hallway for you know 10 minutes to three hours waiting for the doctor to come by and basically give me a signature and tell me to be on my way. I mean, I started at the bottom and I worked my way up to a manager, to a mid-manager position, to a director position, and then eventually to a vice president sales. And, you know, in this industry, for the most part, no matter how good you are or think you are, you know, they're going to make you pay your dues. You know, they're not,

they're not going to give you an executive level position, you know, without doing so. I mean, Tenure is part of corporate America, not all companies. I mean, I don't believe tenure means anything. I mean, if I got somebody that can produce, I'm going to give them up. I'll give them an executive position without them even having any experience, quite frankly. That's just not how I work, but that's pharmaceuticals as a general statement. So, yeah, it took me probably 17 years to get that vice president of sale position. That was, that position was everything that I wanted, everything I thought I wanted, everything I was working for my whole career.

um everything that i was sacrificing for you know time with my kids my wife uh answering the phone 24-7 um always having my computer on me stepping out at dinner you know nights weekends i mean most people in pharmaceuticals not all not the good ones but most you know they don't work a lot i mean 10 to two tuesday to thursday you know they they just go through the motions um i always believe that the money hours and pharmaceuticals and all sales, quite honestly, is before 9 a.m. and after 5 p.m. If you're not willing to work early in the morning, late at night or on a weekend, then you're not going to be number one.

Your customer, because during 9 to 5, that's when they're working. That's when they're making money. Right. And if you're in their face interrupting or I'm bothering with your agenda, then, you know, you're getting in the way. So, um, you know, I did all kinds of things, you know, I would, I would go to see my doctor in the middle of day and they'd run at me and say, Alec, you know, what do you need? What do you want? Want me to sign for you? Give me samples? And I said, doc, I just need 20 minutes of your time, like whenever. You know, one guy just to give you an example, he said, you know what? I'm at the gym every morning at five. I'm on the treadmill. You get to treadmill next to me and get 20 minutes of my time. That was it. I was there every day at 5 a.m. One day I got there and both treadmills on both sides of him were taken. And, you know, I stood up.

I held a $20 bill and said $20 to the guy, you know, gives me up the treadmill. Gives up the treadmill. Boom, I'm on, you know, like, you know, I talked to the girls in the office. Hey, you know, what Starbucks does this guy go do in the morning? You know, what does he drink? I'm there with that drink, you know, coffee, you know, what time. Nights, you know, weekends, you know, the doctor's kids softball games. The doctors, you know, kids bar mitzvahs, weddings.

It's like, if I'm not invited, I'm not doing a good job. You know, I don't know this guy's kids and his wife's name and his family. And if I'm not fishing with him, I'm nobody. I'm just a sales guy. I don't want to be a sales guy. I want to be the doctor's friend. I want to be the customer's friend. And that's a lot about what my book is about is really, you know, if you really want

to be good in sales, in my opinion, and there's a lot of sacrifice involved. And I'm not sure that I ever want to do it again, quite frankly. But if you really want to be a good. salesperson and that's what's important to you then you got to stop being the salesperson and start being the friend and as soon as you can do that then you know you're getting you're getting that much closer to a point where the customer is going to say hey you're a friend you've been good to me what can I do for you okay is that what the so the book you wrote is that predominantly it's more of a kind of like a sales book or a self-help kind of book or is it

kind of cover is it kind of cover your like a portion of your like a memoir also does it is it a two yeah it's all the above it's all the above because I can't write a book without including all the above because it's all intertwined if you want to get the book the name of the book is selling hard lessons learned in the description box I'm going to put Alex contact information he would really like it if you would contact him directly on his email and he will send you the book at no cost to you so take a look at the description if you want to get a free copy of the book but it just makes people think um do i want to be number one or am i cool with being in the top 10 and you can decide what you want and what you need and you can tailor it um based on

you know what it is that you're looking for in life you know my goals in life have changed You know, I still want to be successful. I still want to make some money. But I don't want to be number one ever again because I know that I know the sacrifices that be a number one entails in other parts of my life. And I don't want to give that up. But I still want to be in the top 10%, you know, and I think I can do that. The other thing is, in my opinion, and some people might shake their heads and

everybody has to write to their own opinion. Believe me, I'm not trying to rub anybody the wrong way. But in my opinion, from my experience, to be number one, you got to be, I hate to say it, but you're going to be a little shady maybe. You don't even know it when you're doing it maybe. Or maybe it starts that way where you're just kind of pushing the envelope a little bit. But if you push enough and you push long enough, you will cross the line. And again, you've got to make that decision as to whether or not that's something you want to do. when I was working and building my career and eventually became Vice President of Sales,

I turned to one of my friends before I moved out to Arizona to take the job. And I said to her, you know what, I might end up in jail. I might end up in jail taking this job, but I'm going to do it anyway. Because at that time, I thought that I was actually going to be like okay with it, like going to jail for a couple of years, you know, to make tens of millions of dollars. Wow, that was stupid. this thing i've ever said in my life and am i ashamed and embarrassed yes but the truth of the matter is is that's how how obsessed i had become at that point and how lost i was i mean i had kids i had a

wife and i'm talking about i mean i was 99 percent joking but there was a percent of truth to it right you know what goes on in pharmaceuticals and i know at the executive level that there are times where you're put in a predicament where you have to say yes when you really should say no. Yeah. I also know that I'm part of me and like seven others. We're like the first pharmaceutical executives ever to actually be given prison time and due time, ever in the history of pharmaceuticals. What company was this? I was with, I was indicted when I was with insis therapeutics. We had a schedule to opioid. And I think part of the reason is that we went to prison is because we had a schedule to opioid.

The fact of the matter is, is had I had a drug for hypertension, diabetes, a cholesterol lowering agent, antidepressant, I really don't think I would have been indicted. That doesn't change the fact that what I did was wrong and I was guilty. It's just I got to be realistic in that. The other thing is, I wish that I had, you know, often offered this job with a company that didn't have a scheduled to opioid. Believe me, I do because scheduled to opioids are just horrible. You know, I mean, now that I look back, like the damage and destruction that they have done, you know, they just, they're just, I mean,

look, there's a place for them with certain patient types. Right. Majority of patients that get them, quite frankly, based on what I've seen, probably shouldn't get them. And, you know, unfortunately, you know, And me being a sales guy, I'm responsible for some of that, you know, or some people might say all of it. But I did not set out to be the guy to sell the schedule to a opioid and hurt people. Well, what happened? How did that come about? Like, you took this job. Was that the primary drug that you were, that you were hired to come up with a marketing plan or, you know, how did that come about. He once got plastic surgery because he didn't like the photo on his wanted poster. His legend precedes him. The way indictments precede arrests. He is the most interesting man in the

world. I don't typically commit crime, but when I do, it's bank fraud. Stay greedy, my friends. Support the channel. Join Matthew Cox's Patreon. Yeah, I mean, it was the only, it was the only drug that the company had yeah so some companies have you know a multitude of drugs right this is a smaller biotech company and um they weren't doing very well in the marketplace at all they had already already already what year was this 2012 okay so i mean this is this is firmly like it there's there people know about pill mills they know about opiates you know about you know about you know oxycodone you know it's not like it's not like it's a new drug it's not like it's new no it was a me too drug they called a me too drug i mean it had a little bit of a different

delivery system a little a little twist to uh you know make it faster acting which again for the right patient that's that's a lifesaver but for the majority of patients it's probably the kiss of death right because the faster it acts the more likely they are to actually a it right want to use more of it right there's there's two two sides to every coin here and the flip side of coin is not so pretty um and um i sold a competitor of this drug with a previous company years years before that so that's what made me attractive to this company that i had already had experience selling a drug in this class and had been very successful i wasn't a vice president i was a manager at that time but they liked the fact that i i knew the market and um had experience

i started within just as a manager but within three months you know i was very successful and they uh they offered me the opportunity to be vice president and move out to arizona and again i thought it was the opportunity of lifetime i thought it was what i was waiting for my whole life and it was um but you know that's that's another lesson be careful what you wish for because it was it was literally the worst thing that has ever happened to me and it's i will be paying the price for being offered that position and accepting that position for the rest of my life so what what is it exactly i don't understand what what's the what is the crime i mean this is a an fd i fdc um FDA FDA FDA sorry FDA approved drug you know it was it did it have

something to do with the way it was marketed or the way the labeling. I mean, all of the above. Yeah. And honestly, you know, there are people in the industry that might listen to this that might take offense to it, but that's the industry. You know, the FDA approves drugs for a very specific indication, but doctors can use it for whatever they want. And if reps can somehow get doctors to start thinking about other places to use it in a very strategic manner, right, where they're not actually saying it, but somehow it's implied, I don't know, right? Then things could really take off. And this drug was indicated for breakthrough pain in cancer patients.

People who have cancer, who are opioid tolerant, were already on around the clock opioid therapy, but we're still having breakthrough pain. So say they're on Vicodin four times a day, but that lasts four to six hours, right? But like three hours into that four hour period, they start to get this horrible excruciating pain out of nowhere. You need something that works fast and that you could use intermittently. And so this medication, it would be a spray underneath the tongue and it would penetrate the CNS blood-brain barrier within three to five minutes.

It's very lipophilic. It's fentanyl. You hear fentanyl, and people are like, whoa, it's got to sell them fentanyl. Put them away. I mean, I get it. I mean, fattenile is, it's got a horrible reputation. If you just use it in people with cancer that are literally terminal and are an excruciating pain and need relief, great.

But there's no, you're not going to make a lot of money doing. There's no market. the company was diet. So doctors began, and again, it wasn't just with the drug that I sold. They've been using it in this marketplace for 10 years. They start using this medication for other people who have back pain, who have, you know, a post-operative surgery pain, pre-op pain, you know, whatever, migraines. I mean, you name it. They start using it. And of course, the patient comes back to the doctor and says, wow, doc, like you just saved me a visit to the emergency, I'm like, I normally go to the ER once a month for migraines.

This medication worked in like five minutes. It's a godsend. It's a life savior. Can you prescribe me more? Right. And then six months go by and they're like, you know what, Doc? Can you give me a higher dose? Because I'm not getting the same relief.

Yeah. The doctor's hearing that, that feet getting that good feedback. So now any of the other patients he has of migraines, he's like, listen, I've prescribed this to a couple other patients. They've had great results. You might want to try it. now you're just he's now on board he's on board and we're getting excited because we're seeing more money and we think we're doing something good or we're convincing ourselves we're doing something good because what we're want the money so bad or we're just not intelligent enough

to read between the lines and be like wait these guys shouldn't be on this patient these patients shouldn't be on this medication and they shouldn't be on such a high dose and they shouldn't be taking it so often. Like things are getting out of control and we're not pressing or pushing on the breaks because we're in sales and our quotas keep getting higher and higher and higher. And we're more worried about our quota than we are about doing what's right. And again, that's what my book touches on. You got to find your moral compass. I lost mine. You lose yours. You're going down the wrong path and you will get in trouble. I don't want to say you will. I mean, people get away with shit every day. But you've got to be prepared to get in trouble. You got to and you got to know

what you're looking at. And if you're okay with that, then so be it. Honestly, I'm not even going to judge you. I just want you to know what's out there because I really wasn't prepared to go to prison. And I hated every second of it. You know, any man that likes being taken away from his family, his children, his loved ones, I mean, to me, that's not a real man. You know, that's all I can say about that. So that's one area where things went wrong. The other area, which was huge, which is really, I believe, the main reason why I went to prison. My whole career, we paid doctors to speak about the medication to other positions. That's a very powerful way to move business or to increase sales, right? Because me telling a doctor about a drug, like, I'm a sales guy,

who but a doctor telling a peer or a colleague about the drug well that's a whole different story so we've we've been paying people my whole career and um you know of course right the guy who's getting paid the more he talks about it the more he reads about it the more he prepares to deliver his presentation what is he doing the entire time he's selling himself right so he of course is going to be the biggest prescriber of the drug. So we started to realize, I started to realize, wow, the more I pay this guy, the more he prescribes. These are my biggest providers, my biggest supporters. They're moving business.

They're putting money in my pocket. I'm making commissions because. So at INCIS, when I interviewed the owner of the company, he had a very specific agenda. He wanted me to pay doctors to speak, ultimately because he wanted them to prescribe more medication. You know, the company wasn't doing well, and he knew I had experience there. He was very clear and concise. I want a two-to-one return on investment. Every dollar I pay a doctor, I want two-back minimum.

And if I don't get it out, that's on you. I'm going to give you a tremendous amount of dollars to pay these guys. I'm going to give you a huge budget allocation. And I'm going to hold you accountable for this money. We are going to pay doctors to prescribe this medication. Through the, through the, I'm paying you, yeah, to talk to other doctors about what a great medication it is, but also knowing that they're going to prescribe it more and more. So it's not, it's not like you're outright saying this to the doctors, but you know what the result of paying them to talk to other doctors is. So, Matthew, I mean, you got to, you hit the, uh,

You know, you hit it right on the head, right? However, at other companies, what you said is exactly correct. At Incist, because the owner of the company was so hardcore and had no level of tolerance. Because if you pay 20 doctors and 10 actually start writing more because of it, you're going to make a ton of money. but the doctor the the owner of this company he didn't want you to lose one penny to one doctor so you pay 20 doctors you better get a two to one return on investment on 20 doctors well in order to do that you cannot beat around the bush with these guys you got to flat out sit them down at the table and say look I'm going to pay you to prescribe I need a two to one return on investments I don't make my

money back I could potentially lose my job like are we good like do we have a handshake deal here If not, that's fine. No big deal. Or other doctors. Exactly. Right. And, you know, when I sit at the dinner table with these doctors, some of them, like, some of them, they light up. I mean, they can't believe it.

Wow. Yeah. I'm in now. Because, you know, we have a relationship. We have rapport. We have trust. There's a mutual respect. Other than doctors who I thought maybe I could have that conversation with, it was premature

or just wrong, not just was never going to happen. They might get up from the table in the middle of the middle. the dinner and walk away right that's just part of being in sales hey this guy's pissed off i i offended him uh not didn't go the way i wanted it to go but i got to move on but what i cannot do is take a chance of not being clear and up front with this doctor about what the expectations are because if i do i'm going to lose my job because the owner of the company was very clear with me minimum of two to one return on investment on the on the doctor on the dollars that I pay these guys so essentially we were paying you know pretty much like $125,000 a year to every doctor that was

speaking to prescribe more medication and um you know a couple of people from the company got fired there were some whistleblowers they started to tell the story about what was going on within the company one thing led to another and you know Alec Velikov eventually one day They soon became a person of interest of an investigation, then a subject, that a target, and then I was indicted. And, you know, while this entire process is going on up until the day that, you know, things got really, really bad, you know, the higher ups of the company kept telling me, you know, Alec, toughen up.

This is your first VP of sales job. Like, you don't understand. This is how it goes. It's not a big deal. Yeah. It's going to blow over. Yeah, we're going to be fine. Happens all the time.

Don't show fear. This is how the industry works. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Don't show fear, you know, be a leader. Get on that conference call with your team and, you know, let them know everything's fine.

And you would think that knowing that the first time you had been in your first job where they told you. you this is what we want you to do you go and do it and then they turned on you and said what did you do you're fired you would think like you would have realized that i feel like i might be the fall guy here for you know did that did that enter the equation i mean as you're hearing these little things and reading articles and people are being uh people are being questioned and i'm sure it's getting back to you did you start to think i might be a fall guy here yeah of course i mean you you think you think everything right you obsessed you ruminate at night but at the same time the ego in me kept saying you are moving so much business and everybody's making so much money

and you're kind of uh the guy on the front lines that they're not going to let you go right and this is the industry yeah i mean this is the industry i mean yeah that i Listen, when articles were, when I was being investigated and newspaper reporters are calling and people from title companies are calling saying there were subpoenas served and this went on for weeks, I continually told myself, it's going to be fine. They don't know anything. They're not going to put that together. I mean, just the delusion that I'd been so successful for so long, I couldn't imagine that it was going to go bad. And I just deluded myself until suddenly, you know, someone shows up and says, they're going to come arrest you in a couple days. And it's like, oh, and that was a law enforcement officer. And I was like, wow, like I, you know, the signs were there. They were there. Yeah.

Yeah. No, they were there. And I was delusional and just in denial. And I just also felt that I needed to be a man. and not show fear and just keep leading and keep charging forward. Now, I will say that, you know, on a number of occasions, throughout this entire process and insists, I did, I quit. I actually resigned.

I sent an email. I verbally resigned because I had made a good enough amount of money. For the first time of my life, I felt pretty good. And I felt like I had enough. And I felt like I needed to get out, actually. but they wouldn't accept my resignation and they always had a clause or a stipulation and you know well we're going to hold back this stock and we have one more drug to launch and if you stay with us through that then we won't do this and they call them the golden handcuffs in pharmaceuticals you know you

have your options and they won't they won't accelerate them I mean I was constantly trying to get out but the fact of the matter is I allowed them to basically hold me uh captive by money. Again, money. There was another guy that I worked closely with. I was the vice president of sales. There was another guy who was the vice president of marketing. He just quit. He said, I'm done and walked. And they did the same thing to him. Well, it's going to cost you this amount of money. We're going to do this. We're going to do that. He just walked. And he said, Alec, it's time to go, man. Like, you just not getting it, buddy. and I'm like, and I kind of like ridiculed them.

I'm like, you're soft. You're toughen up. You know, you're leaving too early. You're bailing. Yeah, I mean, I got to admit it. It's embarrassing. I'm ashamed to say. Turns out he was smart.

He was freaking brilliant. He never got indicted. He's like the only guy that walked. And I'm, you know, just a, just an idiot. You know, and I'm driving home that day, talking to myself saying, I can't believe this guy. You know, he should have never been, you know, put this position in the first. place doesn't have what it takes you know but that then again it goes back to my book you know when

you when it doesn't feel right in here you got to move on that you know those damn moral ethical people oh yeah right those guys yeah of course then you're laying in your bunk two years later at the in prison thinking yeah you know he had something there yeah right yeah yeah yeah I know I had multiple, I had several employees that were loan officers and three months later they were like, yeah, I, this is, you guys are out of hand. This is too much. Right. You're changing documents. Everybody knows. Right. I can't do it. And they had changed documents. They had done things too. They had done, you know, very questionable. Questionable. They had done fraudulent things. But they were like, yeah, but everybody's in on this. Everybody knows. And then they left and no, none of those guys got indicted. Right. Right. And, you know, the guy that wants to be the top. guy in the big shot because, you know, in my case, I watched too many movies, you know, I used to say that all the time. I'd seen the Godfather movies. I knew what was going. Like, I knew not to cooperate. I knew that, you know, it was like, oh, what was I thinking? Right. What was I thinking? Yeah. I mean, you know, Wolf of Wall Street. I mean,

that, that movie literally, that just was like the final noun, the coffin for me. I saw that movie my wife and i i mean honestly i went out the next day and you know i just started yeah i was worse than ever you know and um just just let these these grandiose thoughts just take over and um i just kept telling myself high risk high reward you know you want to be somebody you got to push push push push and um no that's always going to they're they're going to take way more than the you know that's the problem is that it's it's there are some crimes sometimes it's it's worth getting pinched if you know keeping the money and going if that's a part of your cycle you know what i'm saying a lot of the street guys that's a part of their cycle they sell drugs they make a chunk of

money they go to jail they get out they do it again and that's just a part of their cycle but in there you know in their um um you know in their i don't want to say industry but You know, in their culture, that's expected and understood and everybody understands. And they have support when they go in. Right. This is the part of the community. This is what's going on. Yeah, man.

You're a white collar guy. Yeah. You go in, your friends, all those guys at the barbecue, all those guys on the golf course, all those guys that you are your close friends that you went to, you went on vacation with. And they're gone. Yep. Yeah. Those guys are gone. What you just said there just really resonated with me.

I mean, it's 100% true. I mean, when I went into prison, you know, I made some friends. Mostly I kind of connected with the Cuban guys for whatever reason. They took me under my wing, took me under their wing. And, you know, they were street guys. And yeah, they would come in and out. And everything you just said, 100%. And the whole time I kept thinking to myself, what the heck was I doing?

You know, like, I don't have what it takes. Like, that's not me, you know? And that's my message now, honestly, in my book and what I hope to do in the future as far as speaking and sharing my story is talking to the white collar guys, the guys that did not grow up on the street, did not grow up literally being forced to sell on the corner to put food on the table and help their mother. And, you know, I get that. Like, I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying those guys that I'm in prison, I have ultimate respect for it. I thought I worked hard. No, they work hard.

I'm not talking about dealing drugs. I'm talking about just surviving, making it in life, doing the time. I had no business getting involved in something that was against the law. That's, you know, I wasn't raised that way, you know. And I'm here to tell other people who are maybe similar to me in some way, shape, or form that you got to really think this through. because, first of all, there are no white-collar prisons. People, when I first got in trouble, they're like, oh, you're going to go to a wide-collar prison.

There are no white-collar prisons. You go to prison and you're in there with people of all sorts, right? Yeah, you're in there with crack. You're in there with guys that committed home invasions, guys that have kidnapped people. You're sitting there across. I'm sitting, listen, for three years, I went to the medium, to a medium security prison.

I'm in there with guys that have life sentences who murdered four people who these are murders. These are guys that are just violent criminals. They have life sentences 40 years, 30 years. And you're like, I was in there with guys that had tied people up and tortured them. Like literally taking like a cattle prod to them until they gave up like $100,000 because they were working for the mob. Yeah. I mean, boy, was I just so wrong and ignorant in nine. And I just don't want others to be go through what wants to go through what I went through

because, yeah, there's no such thing as a white-collar prison. I was very fortunate. I went to a minimum. But I was in there with people like you described who simply worked their way down from a maximum to a medium to a low to a minimum. So yeah, at this point in the game, they clearly got their shit together and they're less likely to have a problem or start a fight of this. But there is not white collar guys. No. And I felt like a fish out of water. And I was. So I have a question. When you got

indicted, how did you get arrested? Like where did they come knock on your door? They come in strong or did they call your lawyer and say, tell them to turn himself in? Like how did that go about? So I knew I was getting in trouble and my lawyer tried to get them to tell me to come in. they refused. They wouldn't say when they were common, how they were common. And the fact of the matter is, they came in strong. Yeah. The only nice thing they did was they waited for my kids to go to school. But I was home with my wife. My wife at the time, of course, she left me, you know, she divorced me, you know, she divorced me when I was in prison. So that's fun. You call home with a 15 minute phone call and you get on the other line, Alec, I'm divorcing you. I mean, it's just,

you know, again, this is not just about going to prison or losing some money. It's about losing everything. But yeah, they came in strong. There was a couple of cable trucks outside the house, and they had the fluorescent jackets on, and they knocked on the door and said the cable's out and the Internet, and they need to work on this. And my wife's like, yeah, whatever, do what you got to do.

For a limited time at McDonald's, enjoy the tasty breakfast trio, Your choice of chicken or sausage McMuffin or McGrittles with a hash brown and a small iced coffee for five bucks plus tax. Available until 11 a.m. at participating McDonald's restaurants. Price excludes flavored iced coffee and delivery. We need to talk to your husband and my wife came upstairs and she's like, Alex, they want to ask you about something. I'm like, what's going on? And I came downstairs and I still wasn't sure, but I knew it was coming. They're like, yeah, we need to dig a ditch outside in the back to help with the internet.

I'm like, okay, yeah, do whatever you want. They're like, well, we need you to come back and we need to come out back. We just need to show you. You know, and then I went out back and boom, the guys showed me the badge, FBI, you're under arrest. And like, you know, I don't know. I don't want to exaggerate, but at least five guys came storming. And it felt like 30. Right.

At least five, you know, guns drawn, weapons drawn, everything. You know, were very aggressive with my wife, you know, I mean. She'll never let me forget, you know, what she went through that day. You know, at the time, it was all about me. Yeah. Steph, look, look what they did to me, you know, and they took me in. And I had to, but, you know, looking back years down the road, like we talk, and she's like, look what they did to me out.

And I didn't do anything, you know, and, you know, yeah, they came in strong. And then, yeah, they cuffed me and threw me in the car and took me down. And the nightmare began. I mean, it really began because, you know, a lot of times people say that the worst part is before you actually go in because I did self-surrender. And it was horrible. I mean, you know, I was, I was miserable. I was depressed. I was anxious.

I was regretful. I was ashamed. I was torn and trying to put on some sort of smile for my kids, you know, and try to spend every last second I had with them before I went in the prison. How much time? what one what were you charged with and two what was the what was the sentence so i was charged with a ricko conspiracy racketeer oh wow okay yeah a big charge and um ultimately i was sentenced to 26 months you know again i was hoping and praying that i wouldn't go to prison at all i was hoping i'd get probation or some supervised release or whatnot but ultimately 26 months and um i did uh

I was the first one to go in. There were seven or eight of us that were charged and sentenced. They kept putting it off because of COVID. But I, you know, I was miserable and I'm very impulsive. And I just kept telling my lawyer, I want to go in. I just got to go in. I got to get it over with. I can't do this.

I'm not living right now. I'm literally dying, you know? You're in limbo. Yeah. It's a horrible situation to be. It'll go years and you just can't do. You can't start. anything you can't do anything you can't you know it's it's just that you know you're just

just like your your help you're helping to create you know stomach cancer or something you're just worrying all the time can't get it off your mind yeah decision is based on i've got to go to prison for a couple years yeah that's it's it's a but you know i want i want people to know who who do listen to this that this is not about me trying to say woe is me you know this is This is about me saying that I was, you know, a lost, greedy son of a bitch who let the mighty dollar lead me down the wrong path. And, you know, a lot of people paid the price for it. And, you know, I'm terribly sorry about everything. But, yeah, I was ultimately given 26 months.

I went in. I actually was the first one to go in under the conditions of COVID. You know, I was supposed to be going to a minimum security. and they put me in a cell, you know, they put me in quarantine, which was basically the closest thing you're going to find to solitary. I was one, you know, one guy in a, not in a minimum, but in the low. And I was there for three weeks by myself, you know, and, you know, you're on your knees, you know, to talk through the little opening there, you know, to ask for a cup of water or, I mean, you know, it was a rat in myself the first two days. I couldn't sleep.

I'm like, there's a rat in myself. They're like, we'll look into it and they move me eventually. I mean, you know, no razor, no toothbrush for two weeks. I never got, you know. It's just, again, I just feel like people need to know that if you're going to push the envelope and think you're this guy that you saw in the movie who was a big shot, well, you better really think this thing through because. It's humbling.

Yeah, humble. is like, you know, the word, right, to describe it all. Especially coming from a position where, you know, you're the guy calling all the shots. You know, you're the guy. Everybody jumps, you know, to the beat of your drum and you have anything you want you can get. And now suddenly you're, you know, now suddenly, like in my case, you know, now suddenly I'm in the shoe with an envelope that says books on it and I'm sliding it through the door. to try and get the attention of the guard so he'll bring books on the little cart you know the little cart they bring around yeah of course and and then they give you four or five books and you know and so

you're reading you know james patterson which is not a great which i understand he's a big seller but he's right right arthur um you know and i'm reading james patterson and there's like just this formulaic you know written for you know fifth graders and i'm like yeah it's do you have any do you have anything else you know and they're like hey man what are you doing you're in the show you don't get to choose here's here's six more books i mean it's i couldn't even read to be honest with you like most people go to prison they read a ton of books i'm embarrassed to say that i couldn't even read i couldn't concentrate i uh read very little i read like one or two books um but you know when i was in in quarantine they gave me a crossword puzzle and um but they didn't give me a pencil

I'm like, I never got the pencil. You know, it's like, you know, it's this big. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean... It's funny to be able to laugh about it now, but at the time, you're being told what to do by correctional officers that have a small fraction of your intellect and half your IQ. And they're telling you how to live your life.

And you're in the shoe looking at them going like, you know, you like this like you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you know I'm saying I watch you sleep all day and you know I'm asking you to bring me a book or to can I use the phone to call my mother and there they just treats you like garbage and granted look you know you're in prison you're a scumbag but to come from that level right and be and drop down there it's so just demoralizing that yeah you just feel so small. And again, people listen to this.

Many people are going to say that's exactly how you should feel. And I get it. I understand, but when you're in that position. Yeah. And keep mind, too, when you're committing these crimes and justifying them to yourself, by the time you finally get sentenced, you don't really feel like you've done anything to deserve this. I mean, in my opinion, it took me years, years.

I had to write a memoir. I had to do a whole bunch of interflection before I finally came to the conclusion that, you know, this is where I'm supposed to be. Like, they're right. Like the illusion was that I was calling the shots and doing all of these wonderful things. And the reality is I deserve to be here. You know, and, you know, you don't even if you say, oh, well, I don't deserve to that much time or I don't deserve this. Well, the truth is, guess what? You're a scumbag.

you don't get to pick make that decision you gave that decision up when you start breaking the law that's right right yeah you lose all power as soon as you start to break the law the power is no longer in your hands yeah you just it's just it's so hard to see it's it's almost impossible yeah um and that's again that's why i'm doing this podcast that's why i talk i mean i just think that i know that there are so many people out there going to college going to graduate school you know just finished the school that are out there doing exactly what i did um and for me personally because i worked with a company that promoted the schedule through opioid the damage was you know yeah exponentially worse

and that was not that's the one thing that was not a conscious decision i did not set out sell an opio. I set up to make a lot of money and be an executive in an industry that I thought, you know, at one point in my life was very reputable. But from the position that you were at, it's hard, you know, when you're you're making these decisions at that level, it's like to me, I'm, I'm just changing a number on a form like that in my case. I was like, I'm not doing anything, but then suddenly you put, get somebody gets a house. that they shouldn't have gotten right they get overextended two years later they're in foreclosure they lose everything it's terrible right and had had i not put them in that i had a fiduciary

responsibility not only to the bank but to that that customer to make the right decision but but my justification was i'm just changing a number like you don't see the devastation down the line and even when i saw it i thought oh well he knew what he was doing he this he that well yeah yeah i blame the doctors oh was the doctor's responsibility to prescribe the medication i didn't write the script right you know that's just not going to fly after a while um i did not just the medication that i sold there were like seven other competitors in the same class. So kind of like what you just said, I just justified and rationalized that in my actions, he wrote my medication over the other seven. So they were going to get it anyway.

Right. You know, it's like, come on, where does it stop? You know? Right. Who knows what, who knows if they were going to get it? Yeah. And who knows if they were going to get as much of it? And who knows if it was going to be as the other guys were going to be as effective as you. Correct. Correct. Correct. We'll go to the extent. Go to the extent. Go to the extent that you were going to so yeah i hear you yeah um this never runs yeah and here's the thing in in the end like you know look you take the time you spent in prison you take this time the money you spend on an attorney you take the loss of spending the time with your kids your wife a divorce getting out being you know being stuck with being a felon for the rest of your life being on

supervised release if there maybe there are even fines involved you don't know in the end people say you know you might say hey look i made three million dollars in the end though that that money won if you still have it and if you divide it by the time that you had to spend in jail and all of the other detrimental things that happened to you as a result of that sentence it ends up being like it's just not worth it's like in the end you're like it's not worth it like i could have i could have made less money and in the end had more money and had a better quality of life for the rest of my life had I simply made the moral and ethical decision that I chose not to make. That's what this is about.

And I, you know, listen, my whole life, I made fun of people that were super, super moral, like perfect. Yeah. There are people out there like that. I know them personally. And I would, you know, I wasn't mean about it, but I would be sarcastic and take a little jabs out. And that's the fact of the matter is, right? Jokes on me. Oh, yeah.

They're laughing, you know, right now, they're laughing. You know, some of them have come around and said, you know what, Alec has, he seems to be a little bit different than he was, you know, before he went in. And, you know, some people do believe in second chances. And, you know, I, I'm very grateful for those people. There are some people that I've come across in my life that are like that. But yeah, you know, for the people that are just laughing and saying, you know, the jokes on out, yeah, I get it. I do. Yeah, I have no problem with that.

Like, to me, I don't, you know, my life, I didn't want my life to be a cautionary tale. But if that's what it ends up being, that's not the worst thing that could have happened. right that's okay i'm okay with that yeah me too so you know i mean because i've still got the rest of my life i can still be okay and if some of some people out there watch this or you know or you know see something like this and they look at look into my story then and they say yeah you know what i'm not i'm not going to be that dude i'm not going to make those those mistakes i'm not that's not going to happen to me i saw what happened to him he talked about it he's said exactly the things that are going through my head, I'm not going to make that decision.

Then that's good because somebody has to do that. Somebody has to be that person. And that, to me, that in an in and of itself or in a very real way is a life worth living. 100%. I mean, for me, that might be the single most important, relevant thing that I have to offer for, you know, in this life moving forward. I mean, I've met so many people who went to prison and talked about writing a book, wanted to write a book, wanted to speak, wanted to tell their story. And, you know, most people just, it doesn't happen.

Yeah. You know, I've been speaking my whole life. You know, I've been talking to groups of people. I've been motivating. I've been selling. I've been delivering a message. And I've been very effective. So I'm hoping that at this point of my life that I can use those.

strengths and attributes in a way where I can deliver a message that actually means something that's actually beneficial that's not about putting money in people's pockets or moving a product that is not necessarily needed and that's what I hope to do you know am I going to work you know the side the 9 to 5 job that actually pays the bills yeah you know because I'm not going to make a living speaking right now or ever probably but uh you know i work in a cubicle man you know i go to work every day i work to nine to five uh you know i pound phones i you know i don't do anything worth uh bragging about but you know in some ways maybe i'm prouder now of who i am than i've ever been in my entire life yeah no i understand that and by the way you know i'm talking

i'm talking about this book i'm not here to sell books um you know i'll give it out free so So, you know, anybody that, you know, wants to read this book or even read a page or two, you know, and see if it's worth reading, you know, just email me at training at aberlacoff.com. Yeah. And what I'll do also is, I'm sorry, I'll put that in the link. I'll put the email address in the link. I'm sorry, in the link. I'll put your email address in the description. Yeah.

So that people can contact you if they want to get a copy of the book. Yeah, just email me. I'll send you a free copy. that's it you know that's all i want to do is i just want to uh you know get my message out there um i wish that i'm sure it's out there from other people right when i was doing this but it never got to me i didn't hear you know had i heard it maybe i would have listened probably not well here's the thing you can hear the same message five different times and then somebody says it just this five people can be saying the same thing and it just so happens that one of them

says it in a certain way and it hits so it's not you know it's not a waste to say oh well i'm saying the same stuff that everybody else says i say i feel like i say the same stuff that everybody else says but it's different coming from me when i do when i do talks or you know lectures and i go talking in front of mortgage brokerage businesses real estate offices when i do those things it's different coming from me because I owned a mortgage company. I was a mortgage broker. I was a brokerage business. I was a lender.

So when they hear it from me, it's different than when it's someone else. Even though they're saying, they may be saying it better than I do. So, you know, there's nothing wrong with saying the same stuff that everybody else is saying because that may be the right, you may just have the right way of the right delivery. 100%. I mean, it's the same thing with sales. I mean, how many times does the customer need to hear the same message before where they actually respond and take action.

Well, here I'm trying to deliver a message that actually might, you know, make a positive difference, not in, not just in the person that hears the message, but let's talk about all the people that are affected either positively or negatively by the person, you know, that's hearing my message, right? I mean, if I had heard the right message and, you know, basically said, you know, I really want to be vice president of sales of a pharmaceutical company, but I don't want to represent a product that's a scheduled to opioid. When I know in my heart that, you know, the majority of the people that are getting it really shouldn't be getting it, you know, it's not FDA proof of that.

And had I had the discipline to say, you know what, it could be another five, seven, ten years before I get a vice president offer with another company that has a drug that's not, that does not have the potential to harm people. Think of how many. people's lives you know could have been for the better you know well um is there anything else you want to say or are we you feel like you feel good about this we're good yeah i do i feel like um i really appreciate you give me the opportunity to be on this podcast and and uh you know just really honestly just speak from the heart you know because um i think that's important i think that the more i do that at least for me the better it is for me um but i also think that you know there's something

to be said for being genuine and that there are other people who can benefit from here and a genuine uh a man who's speaking um transparently and genuinely you know um i think a lot goes a lot of said for that i know that when people speak to me now and i can tell whether they're selling me or they're just speaking to me. I want the guy, I want to hear the message from the guy who's just speaking here. Alec, I appreciate it. I appreciate you coming on. Hey, uh, if you, uh, if you like the video, do me a favor and hit the subscribe button, hit the bell so you get notified of videos like this. Leave me a comment in the comment section. I'm going to leave all of Alex, uh, contact information in the description. Uh, also, uh, I'm not sure I can, uh, I'm going to ask him

and I may leave the direct link to the book if you actually want to buy the book or if you want to contact him, get him to send you a free copy. Totally up to you. And I appreciate you guys watching and I will see you.