Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - Former Mafia Insider Reveals the Cost of Corruption, Betrayal & Regret

Episode Date: July 15, 2026

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My name is Peter Parker, but I'm also Spider-Man. This July, we're faced with a threat. That can be anyone. The world may have forgotten Peter Parker. I'm just a neighbor, friendly neighbor. But he hasn't forgotten them. Sometimes Spider-Man has to do the hard thing. That's my responsibility.

Dr. Banner? I didn't know you could get that big. Spider-Man, brand-new day in theaters, July 31st. I worked for the federal government for 18 years undercover. The FBI, they pretend they're the good guys, and then they stab you in the back. My life was in danger all the time. But the FBI threw me to the, not the wolves, to the whole jungle. And they did it purposely.

I was born in Nourichelle, New York. You're kind of centrally located there. But in that town, there was a lot of things going on, a lot of, it was kind of an upscale type of thing. So if you move from the Bronx and you went to Nourichelle, like, ooh, now we're a nerd show, like, you know, Westchester, you know. So it was kind of like a little bit on an upscale. But there was a lot of things going on around that town, gambling, loan sharking, taking numbers, murders, you know, organized crime is organized crime, you know.

But you moved up to those kind of places when you kind of stepped up from, like, if you're a wise guy for a long time and you moved up, that means you were making money and you were doing good for yourself and you tried to get out of that neighborhood, the bad neighborhoods, I guess you would say. Right. Well, if you're, but you're a little kid. Like, I mean, how do you, do you see this around you or you didn't know nothing about it? When I went to clubs with my father, I was probably like maybe seven years old. So my father would take me with him, you know, and we go to like the clubs and there'd be the pool table in there, a bunch of guys playing cards, you know, I'd chew a little pool. The guys would show me how to shoot pool. I'd walk in my,

Like some of the guys would go to my father. What do you got there? Who's that your bodyguard? Like, you know, and he'd be holding my hand. And, you know, you hear things, but you don't really know. They show you how to shoot pool. They ask you if you want something to eat. You know, you want a sandwich and stuff.

And I look at my father. My father said, yeah, give me a sandwich. You want something to eat? You would call me Joseph. And so I'd eat and talk to the guys. But I, you know, it felt like you had like a bunch of guys with you, like your father's friends. So you made you feel kind of like special in a way. Right. When did you kind of did you it's funny because, you know, I want to ask when did you start to notice that this was abnormal?

But the truth is, I mean, I know it's like, you know, being a, it's like a fish that's in a pond. Like it doesn't really realize it's in a pond. It's all it's ever known. It doesn't realize it's surrounded by water, you know, so you don't really notice until you get out of that. And then you're like, oh, wow, that wasn't, that wasn't normal. It's, that's almost that's like right there, that's pretty much how it was. The only other times I've ever realized it was when if my father came out of the house and if I was having problems with somebody in the neighborhood and their father came out, sometimes they would be a little bit, oh, I'm sorry, Joe. My father's name was Joe too as well. Now I'm not a junior, but his name was Joe. You know, you could see that they would treat him differently like a little bit, but you still don't grasp it. you know my father used to uh i guess whatever how he was making the money back then he used to

wrap the money in foil and put it in the freezer so i so i said why are we putting the money in the freezer dad you know just a regular kid question and he said well it's a little hot so we're trying to cool it down a little bit but you know i stood it and grasp it i just said oh okay you meant that though but that was true yeah he meant it but i just said like okay you know i didn't know but so then i seen him do other things he would be looking at a book and doing going over numbers and stuff and then my uncle would come over and he would talk to him other guys would come over once and a while and they'd sit and talk with them on sundays and so he was i guess he was doing his own little number running and loan shark in uh and stuff like that but i didn't know it i mean i got

a picture of him in a jumpsuit sort of thing and he was he i said where you going that that it was at nighttime. He says, I got to go to work. And, uh, but he was hijacking the trucks back then. And he was doing it like at Macy's. They would bring the parts in and he was taking them out. It was it was crazy, but I didn't know that back then. How long does it take before you, you get to a point where you realize that this is kind of the life that is going on around you? I can tell you almost exactly. That's a really good question because I could tell you almost exactly. I think I was in junior high school in fourth grade. So how old are you back then?

11, 12, maybe, something like that. Well, a lot of people knew my father at the school. My gym teacher, call my Ramonto. He was in the neighborhoods, you know. But my father got arrested for drug trafficking. Back then, it was their heart. It was like what they call the tail end of the French connection. Right.

I don't know if you heard about that. It was a big thing back in those days. know, but my wife was like on the very tail end of it, you know. So he got arrested. I didn't know. He never came home. And so then they finally said, listen, I was kind of like asking, where's my father, you know? But we had to get out of the house and then we had to move in my grandparents.

And then I kind of knew what was going on. And while I was away, while my father was away and I was still in junior high school, I was a really good gymnast at the time, very long, lanky and that. This guy called my Ramantho said to me, listen, he says, you got a lot of potential. to be a gymnast. Don't try to be like your father. Because I had that attitude a little bit like, you know, a little, not cocky, but I guess, you know, don't mess around with me kind of thing. Because you're a kid, you know. And he said, don't be like your father, a tough guy. He said, be a gymnast, you know, go to school. And he was right.

How long does your father get? At that time, he got five years. Now, that's the old law. So that, yeah, because the guy, supposedly they got rid of the guy that was supposed to testify against him, which happened to have been, guess who? My father's partner. What a surprise. And, but they, he wound up doing five, in five years. And then at that time, it was only 65% of the time. So he came home in three years and six months. So this was, was it federal?

Yes. Was he, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, yeah, Matt. Well, I was going to say, was he a part of a, a specific group, like, or family? or was he just kind of, you know? There was a guy we used to call Uncle Rudy. I think Rudy Pippolo, that's his real name. I think he was with the Lucchasey guys.

I don't know if he was at the Gambinos, but it might have been the Lucchese guys, and that's who he was kind of like hanging around at that time. But he was not straightened out at that time. He was not a main man. My father started off. Both my mother and father were beauticians, which relates to hairdressers now, you know what I mean?

Yeah. So that's really what he was. That was his occupation at the time. So you moved in with your grandparents. Correct. My father's mother and fatherhood. I must have lived with them back and forth between my mother, father getting separated, getting together again, divorced, remarried.

I must have moved in my lifetime. I can't tell you how many times always back to my grandparents' house. Yep. So, I mean, was there a. point when you started getting in trouble in high school or did you stick with getting good grades or i can see it your face sorry that's the face this way you know without the glasses um but yeah i'm gonna tell you when i started getting in trouble i was uh my birthday's in december so uh but my mother had friends and their sons and they were like uh six months older than me but the school told my mom let them come the

following year to kindergarten because he's still like a little too young. But, uh, so anyways, my mother didn't want to do that. She, she, you know, she wanted to still stay with her friends, have all the kids in the same school and everything. So I was in Catholic school. So the nun took me by the hand and I was like a little, I guess I'm not going to lie, I probably was a little scared, you know what I mean? I'm going away from my mother, you know, I think it was what, five years old or something like that. And, um, so I turned and look back and my mother, I never forget this, she rest in peace, but she told me, she says, you turned around and looked at me, she says, and that was it. Ever since kindergarten, I was in trouble. I was either the class count.

I ran away from school. I actually in fourth grade, the teacher, Ms. Rosario, across the face, because she hit me across the face first. I mean, so yeah, yeah, Matt, when you said about trouble, yeah, I was in trouble. Yep. Was there a point? I mean, at what point, you know, by, when do you start getting in, in trouble, I mean like, like, I don't know, you know, selling drugs, you know, rock, like whatever, whatever the, you're breaking the law like crime wise. I think at 14 years old, I think, I started smoking when I was smoking pot, whatever, how you want to say it, when I was 11 years old. So I got turned on because I hung around with people who were like 18, you know, 19, older than me. Well, at least their family was. I hung around with their kid brother or something like that.

and somebody passed at me a joint, you know, and I wanted to look cool. I actually liked the little, the girl that my friend's older brother was dating, had a crush on her for years. So, of course, I took the joint, I smoked it, I didn't know. But I stopped at the THC and all of those kind of things, smoked hash, you know, took those pills back in those day, green teas. I don't know how old you are, but that's what it was like pills. They used to be THC pills.

I think I did L.A. once. I got really sick from it, though. But anyway, I stopped everything when it cold when I was 14. And that's when I started selling it. And I proved to myself that I didn't need drugs, but I was able to sell what they used to call loose joints. I started really low on the total pole. You know, then, of course, I would do anything like for money.

I would rob you if I had to or whatever. If somebody pointed me in the right direction, you know, that's how I learned not to rob anybody in your own neighborhood. You always go outside of your neighborhood to rob, you know, never do anything where you live. Why did something go bad? No, it's just that you, you just get like little tidbits from your family. When I was seven years old, my grandfather said to me, don't, if you want to kill anybody, you have to, you know, kill anybody.

Just do it by yourself. He said, you know, why, don't you? And I looked at him. I said, you know, because I was still with seven. And, you know, I was just looking at that dumb look. And he said, because you're not going to tell on yourself, are you? And I went, okay. And that stuck with me, as you can see.

I'm in my 60s now and I still remember what he told me. So he made a lot of sense, you know. That's not a normal discussion. No, I didn't have a normal life, you know. Let's face it. I wish I did. Everybody wants the Brady Bunch life. Anybody who's in my age and remembers them, but no.

I mean, there was a guy that came to the house, Alex Cicone, came with another guy about 2 o'clock at the morning maybe knocking on the door at my grandfather's house because my my father was living there my father was separated from my mother then again and um so he my father walks out the door yelling and screaming and the guy told them be quiet now this guy Alex Saccone was so tough that he had chunks of flesh taken out of him from a guy he had a fight with who was another tough guy and they started biting each other okay yeah yeah this is the this guy Alex Sacconi actually had legitimate papers that said he belonged in a nut house.

Right. So he was, yeah, and the whole town knew them. There was, people were kind of scared of them, you know, because he was a bouncer for a while. Anybody who was built muscular, he would, you know, try to start a fight with them. But anyway, this guy used to collect money to. That's what he was due for living. He had no really sense. But he came to my house and my grandfather was saying, you know, I went outside with my father

because I still wouldn't want to fight the guy alone. Nothing happened. But my grandfather was saying, bring him inside. bring him inside. He says, we'll chop them up in the basement. Now, this is, I was about maybe going on. Yeah, 20 something years old then. And but we couldn't do it because the guy was waiting for him in the car. But if he came by himself, we would have said, let's have a cup of coffee. And then he would have never made it anywhere. And lo and behold, my father wound up killing a guy later on down the road. Yep. Is this the guy that he went to prison for? No. No, he went,

the first time went to prison was for drugs. Right. And then he got out. Okay. Yeah, the second time he was, well, he did go to prison another time for numbers. They're there, you know, little time, like three months or something like that. That wasn't a lot of time back then. And then the last time he was supposed to go to prison, that's when he ran away. That was going to be for a murder. So he ran away for that one. Supposedly, my father, I looked up the FOIA Act, you know, the...

Yeah, Freedom Elimation Act. That's right. So he supposedly had like about four guys under his belt that he killed. that we know of still at least that they know of i don't really know he never discussed any murders with me or anything like that okay so how did you end up graduating like high school or unfortunately that's a good question too no i didn't i wound up not i know i was when i got suspended when i was in sixth grade so one of my friends and me were walking we were bored i guess you know i was sixth grade so he said to me jimmy mediato i never forget him and uh he knows

what he did because I still talk to him back in the days. He apologized to me for, you know, ratting me out. But so he said to me, he says, Joe, why don't you pull the fire along? I said, nah, I don't want to do that. He goes, come on, I dare you. Then he said he doubled dared me and then I pulled it. Well, obviously the fire department came, the whole school emptied out. It was a big thing, and I got suspended for three and a half years. But I know, I said three and a half years, that just kicked you out why don't it just kick you out like because i was under 16 years old um i guess they couldn't do it for some reason you know they were probably more democratic back then you know and um so they didn't kick me out but they suspended me and then they gave me a tutor and so the

tutor guy that came over there uh way chambers he and i became like this i'll put it like so you can see like this is a type of guy who okay i'm going to tell you how he came to the house i didn't want a tutor i was mad i was angry that i got suspended it got caught that i got ratted on i was all of that he comes to my house my mother makes him a cup of coffee we're in the kitchen my mother's waiting in the living room you can't see too much i pull a knife out of the drawer like the one from like psycho with the you remember psycho when he stabbed the girl in the shower he dressed up like a woman yep yep so i grabbed that knife and i told him i says listen you're never going to come back here but you're going to pass me anyway now i'm not even not even

I think I was 16 maybe years old or whatever. And this is what I'm telling this guy. Well, I don't know what he said to me or how he talked to me, but we just, he diffused the whole situation. He taught me things that I didn't know, taught me a lot about Shakespeare and stuff like that. As a matter of fact, I could quote Shakespeare right off the top of my head, but soft what light to be on the window breaks.

It is the Eastern Juliet is a son. So I'm very, I know it's really weird because I wrote a lot of poems because of this gentleman who didn't stand up to me, but talked me down. right because you know why like it's what you're leading to a little bit mad the the thing is i never had anybody to talk to me like that i only had people to show how tough they was and you know and all like that i didn't have no real guidance you know nobody said what do you want to do with yourself for your life like you know what i mean nobody sat down and said do you want to be this do you want to be that and i didn't have none of that right uh you know i mean maybe they asked me once or

twice but you know i did the old thing i don't know like that you know But he talked to me and I passed and then I had to go back to high school on probation. Well, I wound up knocking some kid out in school at 11th grade and then, yeah, I didn't graduate. So there you go. So what, I mean, so what happened then? Like, you know, I'm assuming you go, assuming that your parents find out about it, your grandparents or your mom finds out. What do they do? They tell you, look, you can't just, you got to go get a job.

Like, you got to do something. You can't just get kicked out of school and hang out in your spare room. That's right. So I worked at my grandfather putting down linoleum and like rugs and stuff like that. He owned a place called Ben Carle up in her shell. Of course, I hustled a little bit. Like I said, I sold a little pot here and there. So I made a couple of bucks there.

Then I did various jobs in the neighborhood, you know, worked at the grocery store. I worked as a car detailer. I used to detail cars at a couple of dealerships at one time. So I was trying to make my way in life. But, you know, I finally got a good job at a junior high school as a custodian. My cousin married this guy. His father was the custodian at the school, the head custodian. So I went there.

I didn't know what I was doing, but they taught me how to clean and mop up and do all that stuff like certain custodians would do. but actually while I was doing that I took the postman test and I actually passed with a 98 because my memory used to be so sharp I used to watch it on TV this match game or whatever it was so they would show you on the board what was on there and then they close it and then you'd have to remember where those pieces go and I remembered it and that's how I was so good that's kind of the test it was so I was actually passed a test with like a 98 so they called me and they wanted to give me part-time work. Now, I'm like a kind of a creature habit. I don't like to change. I was all right in there making some money. I figured part-time work, I'd have to change jobs.

I'd have to learn something. So I guess I was a little more apprehensive about going into it. And I should have because I would have, that's how they start you off. You become full-time after that. Now, I had two uncles and a cousin who was postman. It would have been like I went into the family business, you know, and I would have been retired at maybe 47, 48 years old with a nice. little pension. I'm assuming that's not what happened. Well, once again, nobody said to me, you know, I told everybody that I passed it and everything, but nobody said, go forward. It's a federal job.

It's a, you know, you have benefits and all this other stuff. Yeah. Nobody talked to me, so I didn't do it like a fool. And I regret it to this day. I regret it. So what happened? So what happened? What did you end up doing?

Well, I wound up getting fired at the job. no surprise there. The boss was, I guess, well, the first, it's a little bit my fault. Let me explain. I was young. I was about 24 years old, 23 years old. And so I used to like to go out to the club. So Friday came.

What happened was, you know how you punch the ticket into the time clock back in those days? Well, I thought I was smarter than most people, and I got the key to the time clock. and I used to mess with it a little bit to try to show that I put in my time, but I left a couple hours early. But lo and behold, I didn't know really how to work the time clock that good. And so everybody I was punching in was getting all the wrong times, all the teachers, all the everybody. Well, of course, they blamed me for it. And they didn't have no proof. So they couldn't fire me.

But the guy kept putting more work on me, more work on me. And so he tried to catch me there when I wasn't there at nighttime. Well, I was there at night because they told me. me better watch out Mr. Joyce, who that's what the custodian was after my cousin's father-in-law left. He said, he went upstairs and he were on the third floor of the school, and he said, look, it's not working out. I said, what do you talk about? I'm doing everything. I'm working overtime for you, and I'm still here at the job.

You didn't catch me doing anything. Well, the next thing I knew, I had him over the railing. I was throwing him over the third-floor railing. But the other custodian that worked that night to me, this guy, Jesse, he heard the guy screaming. And he came running upstairs and he grabbed me and he grabbed me. The guy was almost as ankles. I was about to let go. He almost went down the whole three flights of stairs.

Well, I guess that led to the fire. And so I got fired. And then, you know, I wasn't doing that for a little while. And then finally, my father's boss, who was Barney Balamo, he worked. We had the Jacob Javitt Center at that time. The Genevice kind of controlled that now. We took it away from the Westies. And then he says, what's the kid doing?

So my father said nothing. He says, okay, send them down there. And I started making, I think, $20-something an hour, $48 overtime. So all I had to do was just, I get a call, and I show up to Jacob Chavez Center, and that was it. What do you mean that was it? What was the job? The job was, I actually went there that I didn't even know. So the guy that was running the show down there was Ralphie Coppola.

It was a good friend of mine. We grew up together, fought together, everything. He's gone now too They got rid of him too But he said You gotta get a tool belt I didn't even know Nobody told me

So I had to run up the block I had to get a tool belt I bought a hammer And bought all the stuff All you did was put the boots Together for all the shows So you get car shows You get diamond shows

Hair shows It was a big thing like that And then the other Good thing was I was working around With a lot of wise guys I got free tickets I can go anytime I want

To the shows And I was working around With some really good good guys but i started messing up over there too because i sometimes i would sing and so all the guys that knew me some guys from brook or some guys from queens they say joey get up there and sing and we'll pretend like we broke the glass like you know they would hold like a plastic glass like they had something in and when i hit the high note like an opera singer it would break so the the boss calls me in and said we can't have this over here joe you understand what this is

about you got to you got to keep appearances up he says he can't keep doing it this kind of stuff. So anyways, then my mother passed away. She died of cancer. Once that happened, I flipped out and I wasn't, I wasn't out of control. So a lot of bad things happen. I was about 28 years old, I think, 28, 29. Yeah, about 20, I'm sorry, 27, maybe, I think. She died in 1988, July 8. But she was sick for, 14 months with cancer. And then after that, I freaked out. So what happened when you say you freaked out?

What does that entail? Well, I started doing all the things I wanted to do. I wanted to tell my father off for the life he put me in because I couldn't, I couldn't talk to my mother, really. They didn't want me to talk to her. You know, of course, I was afraid of my father when I was younger. you know so I sold his money I took it from him so I can get his attention and I did get his attention we finally sat down talk I gave him back the money I told him that he ruined my life kept me away from my mother all those years I couldn't tell her I loved her so yeah I heard him

because he hurt me you know what I mean and that's the way it was I'm sort of vengeful in those kind of ways. But we made amends my father and I. And then he, you know, he understood, you know. I put it to him in certain ways because sometimes if I just put it to him about his mother, what would he do if, you know, because my grandfather was sometimes mean to my grandmother, his mother, you know. My other grandfather used to hit my other grandmother, which was on my mother's side.

And my mother's side of the family, they also used that come they actually came from uh... uh... italy but they actually worked for al capone back in those days believe it or not you know it's kind of weird to say but uh... al capone had my uh... somebody killed in my family actually on my mother side so this is a long history of where i come from uh...

you know all of that stuff you know i mean what so i mean at once so your mother passed away you had you know the issue with with your with your dad i mean at what point you know what what happened after that well i my father was uh in on a murder uh supposedly they were uh they were uh they had suspicions that this guy was going to testify i forget his name exactly right now off the top of my head but he was well-to-do well-known so he got called down my father was had directions to call down to uh to go to Brooklyn. And so he took the guy down. They talked to him and everything. But, you know,

these guys are sharp. You know what I mean? And even if they don't really suspect it so much, they don't want to take chances. It's easier to have you killed than to say, no, he's good. You know what I mean? I'm sorry. When you say your dad talked to him, so he went down there and said, look, you can't testify, whatever. He had a, he had a talk, no, serious talk. What? No. Okay. My father never said anything. He let the guys talk to them, the bosses. Because he was, I think, a big shot himself. as well. And so Mickey Generosa was actually the guy that he went to go see. He was, he's gone now too, but he was a big shot for a long, long time in the Genevese family. So they actually talked to this guy. My father just listened to whatever, even if he was even in there or not. I don't

know, but that's when they called my father down and they said, he's got to go. So the next thing you know, short time after that, I don't know how long it was after that a week or day. I don't know exactly. but they found him hanging in his garage and they said he committed but that's not really yeah even the fed said yeah even the feds knew that wasn't so because they were working with him now if you're going to be working with the feds

you don't really want to kill yourself you're trying to get out of something you know what I mean? Yeah yeah things are working yeah you know what the way it is I ain't got to tell you but that's what it is he's trying to save himself he's not going to try to kill himself matter of fact the guy was his landscaper there was we used to call him Papa G I knew him and his wife really good. So the feds went into the house and they took out out of the air ducts up there, they

found $400,000 in cash. So we made fun of Papa G. We said, what's wrong with you when you were in the house alone? You didn't go through the house to look for the money. Oh my God, the stuff, you know. I interviewed a guy who was a jewel thief who had broken into, you know, he he broke into, I forget what it was. It was basically it was like a jewelry store, like in a high-rise building. He broke in and he got into the safe. And he said, and so he got the jewelry, jewels. And he's like, you know, which was like a million dollars. He was like a million dollars in jewels.

And he was a kid. He was a young kid, probably in his probably early 20s. And he was leaving. And he said there was a bunch of bags, but they looked like mail bags. You know, the thick. Oh, yeah. He's like like a bunch of them just piled up in the corner. And he said, I think he even said, like they had to move them at some point.

Even like they were sitting on them. They're moving them. And he said, I'm thinking it's just some kind of mail or something, gets the money, leaves. The feds were watching the building the whole time because what was happening was that these guys were laundering money for the mob. And he breaks into the place. The money is there. He doesn't know. He never.

So when he gets out, there's a, there's a huge article like the next day. A couple days later, his father brings him aside. and is like, what is wrong with you? You didn't look in the bags? He's like, I was there to get in the safe. I'm not searching the place. I'm here for the safe. He's like, you could have looked in the bags.

Like, what do you mean? It was millions. Like they caught like five million dollars. He's like, I just didn't. I was there for the jewels. I was thrilled. I got all the jewels. Yeah.

Yeah. Wow. Well, listen, you know, my uncle, he was, he was a cop. And he went to go rob this lumber, lumber place for the wood and everything. Well, he brought his wallet with him. For some reason, of course, the wallet fell out of his pocket, and that's how he got kicked off the police force. I mean, but you should know these things. Don't bring your wallet. And you should go with somebody else or someone, don't leave no stone unturn, no pun intended. You know what I mean? Yeah, obviously,

I have another buddy that walked, he said he was a kid. He's probably 19, 20. He walked through an apartment complex, and he saw somebody's sliding glass door was open. Wow. And so, he goes around, knocks on the door, nobody's home, opens the sliding glass door, goes inside, actually finds the guy's credit cards, takes the credit cards, goes to the mall, use the credit cards, bought a bunch of stuff, and then started thinking like, I don't know, I don't want to get in trouble. You know, he's kind of, he's young kid. He was like, you know what?

He said, I got scared. So he said, he goes back, brings the stuff he bought and put it in the guys. you know, on his bed, put the credit cards back and left. He said a couple hours later, the cops show up. And it was like, what happened? He, same thing. When he was pulling stuff out of his pocket, he put his wallet on the thing, on the, just, and left it there.

We were like, wow. What are you? Like, that's the dumbest thing I've never heard in my life. And it happens. Listen, that's why they always say every crime that's committed, there's always one thing that somebody makes a mistake on you know look you could plan it for days weeks months you know but you could still make a mistake because sometimes in that heat at a moment that's why i always love you still that's why i like that uh that movie the devil's advocate with

alpuccino and he says to kiana reeves alpuccino says to him he says can you summon your you know your talent when it really counts like in other words because you know some people fold under pressure some people become better under pressure you know and that was a really good line Yeah. You know, my fear is whenever I talk to guys, they're always like, bro, was you ever commit fraud again? I'm like, you know, I'm like, no. Well, I mean, I guess the circumstances right. You'll do anything. But, you know, I'm like, no, but not because of what, why you think. You know, it's not because I think I'm going to screw up. As much as it's that all the times I've been caught, it's kind of that fly in the ointment. It was something that I couldn't account for. You know, the guy that plans the perfect bank robbery and walks out the door and it just by complete coincidence, some patrolman who's supposed to be across town happens to swing by to see his wife at the place right next to the bank because they had an argument this morning. Like, how do you account for that? You knew that patrol car was supposed to be on the other side of town. You know, you just, you just can't, you just, it's that.

You can't figure it out all. No, you, you'd be like a victim. them of circumstance. You can't figure it out all. I mean, you know, anything can pop up. You could try to plan for it, but listen, it's almost like what they say about guys like me. They go, are you expecting wise guys to come around the corner and blow you away or whatever? I say, you know, something, to some degree, yes, but at the other time, I think it's that guy that nobody's thinking about, the nobody, the guy that comes out of the woodwork that nobody ever heard about. That's the guy that got you, you know? Who was, I forget which, which guy it was. I forget which guy it

was like a former mobster. And he was like, he said, oh gosh, he, he said it's not, because, you know, these guys, like they got a hit on him, he cooperated, whatever. And they're like, are you worried? He's like, I'm not really worried about the older guys, the guys that probably would have done anything. He said,

I'm worried about some young kid that's just young and stupid and is trying to make a name for himself and sees me and decides to take a couple pop shots at me and actually hits me and kills me by accident. accident. He's like, it's not the 65 year old guy because that guy at this point, he's 65 years old. It's like, look, man, I just want to live my life. That's right. I don't care what you did. Do what you did. And let me just let me drink coffee and smoke cigarettes and just and watch TV and live out my life. I'm done. I believe it. Yeah, he's not

worried about that guy. It's the young kid. No, that's exactly. And that's exactly right. When I was away with Chili, I was with Jerry Chili, uh, in MDC on my last bid. And so he said, look when I go home because he didn't probably half his life in prison he said when I go home and they want some work done I'm going to tell him look give it to the young guy why are you going to give it to me and he told me that that's like over 10 years ago now already so I remember that but that's the truth that what that guy said he's right you always got to worry about you know you can't know everybody in the life I was in the life and I didn't know everybody you know so you know somebody trying to make their bones trying to make themselves get noticed you know it's like what the feds

did to me the FBI they didn't they're not really exposed me they didn't throw me to the woods they threw me to everybody you know what i mean yeah and that's how that's how they kill you they did the same thing with willie boy johnson the uh assisting u.s attorney he didn't want to cooperate anymore he he he cooperated but he didn't want to take the stand against john goddy well what do you think they did they exposed them you can look this up yourself i'm sure you got you know you're resourceful uh and then they he wound up getting killed because you know nat he knew he was a rat uh so you know this is this is so if they didn't get me in at trial which they lost at my trial

though they try they figure well what's his life worth anyway he can't go back to his all ways he's going to have a harder time earning money uh people hate him and somebody maybe will kill him and then we'll be all happy they won't say that outright right right right you know how they do it well it's the same way it's the same way when they gave me permission the fb a gave actually gave me permission to kill a wise guy they didn't say okay here's the gun you know what to do no they didn't do that of course not they got to protect themselves but they said i told them i i might have to go on this hit and they said look do whatever you got to do joe to protect yourself but make sure you tell us right away so we could protect you i don't know how they're

going to protect me but if we could figure that out you and i might hit the lotto tomorrow What do they call that? Public. There's a term for it where they give you, it's called public something where they're because I know guys that are like, like they let them sell drugs. They let them buy and sell drugs. It's called, they've got a name for it. It's called public something where they're allowing you to act in that manner.

Yep. You know, just to, just to maintain your cover because you're in danger if you don't. Same reason that if a cop is in a group of people, they'll, you know, and hey, everybody's doing whatever, drugs or whatever. If you have to, if you're in that position, you have to. Like you can't say, no, no, I can't. Whoa, whoa, I could, it's not good. I'm going to have to do this.

No, that's right. And there's plenty of movies on that. If you don't take the hit of the, the, go to the week or anything, now right away, they go, oh, look, see, he must be a cop because he's not participating. Well, that's why I, this is the reason why it's such a mess up situation in my situation, because I worked for the federal government for 18 years undercover. So after I got a pinch, they said, we'll give you some money to, you know, to put out there in the street and everything. And I should have said, yeah, give me all the money.

Give me $50,000. I could put it right out right away. But then I asked them this question because I was so mad at them because they run their, the second people I was with, not my first handler, these other people. I said, what happens when the guy doesn't want to pay me? You know, I have to do what I have to do now. You understand? I can't not smack them around, heard them, whatever I got to do. They said they didn't want to answer me then. So it's the same thing. I'm allowed to do all these things.

They gave me permission to talk about murders, extortion or anything like that. But yet, if I'm with somebody in the bar and all my guys are fighting, I'm not supposed to just sit in the back and said, I didn't see it. You know, it's almost like a catch-22. How do you are supposed to operate, you know? So let's jump back to like when do you start to get into criminal behavior, you know, that gets you eventually, you know, grabbed? Probably like in my, like I guess maybe more towards my 20s. I mean, I started really rocking and rolling. You know, I started robbing drug dealers at that time because it was easy. Now, don't get me wrong. I wasn't robbing him for big money. I didn't have any real connections to guys that had millions in the house or something like that, which I wish I did, but I didn't.

I was robbing them in the street, you know, the little stupid things. I take a roll of money. Actually, this is one guy that I got that showed me how to do it. He actually got shot later on. We would take a bunch of hundreds and stuff and showed him. We want this, all this cocaine. And they would go, yeah, yeah, give us the. So, and then we'd give him the $20 in singles and then take off with how many grams of Coke.

And then we'd sell it and make some money and that kind of thing. Of course, I had a lot of guns at that. time because I was after my father left to go on the lamb I was collecting money for things that he had going on trucking companies all these kind of things like that but I wasn't kicking it up to the to the wise guys so finally I was told not to go there anymore like that but I guess maybe if they were looking for the money but they never got it from me you know so I kept all these thousands of dollars from them I figured they could afford it you know what I mean I couldn't but they could so I didn't know you know what was going on but uh you know I had a lot of a lot of

lot of I liked guns so I owned like at one time 30 35 guns at one time different places so I started doing that after my first pinch when I got caught with the guns with the extortion and all of this stuff like that and I was doing time that's when I started making some more connections well let's talk about that well what happened with that was that I loaned some kids some money We were supposed to be in business together, but I told them, listen, as long as you give me my end of the money back, I won't try to hurt you if any Vig or anything like that. Just give me my initial money that I put into the business. Well, he didn't, of course. Then he told me his brother would help him out.

Well, anyway, the loan grew to like $30,000 or whatever it was. I had a couple of guys come with me. We put a telephone cord around his neck. My other friend held a gun to his head. Well, he went to the feds about it, and that's when I started getting problems. So they grabbed me. I saw him, the guy that we put the telephone cord around his neck. He was wearing a wire.

He was supposed to have set up his own brother, who was my partner. Anyway, I seen him. Now, this guy was big. He was 6'4, 450 pounds. It wasn't like a built guy, but he was big. I'm only 5.11.5. I think I was 160 pounds back then. And I seen him on this porch.

I had my sap gloves on, which were the weighted gloves with the lead in them back in those days. So I run up to the porch of them and I said, hey, Eddie, I talked to him. Bing, boom, where's my money? He hit me bound in them. And I knock up to the ground and I get pinched right there. And I never see the street until three and a half years later. What are the cops across the street in a car, like monitoring? Yeah, the feds.

Because he was wearing a wire. He was waiting for his brother to show up. Now, his brother actually did pass by, but he felt something was wrong. And he just kept going. He never talked to him. But on the white, he was wearing for his brother. He got me wearing it. And so that was it.

I had a gun in the car with the serial number scratched off. The girl I was with got arrested, not arrested, but they took it down to down there and everything. And as she walked by me and I was in one of the offices handcuffed, I said, don't worry about it, Karen, you're okay. You don't know nothing about me. And I was yelling at out there, you know, trying to give her a little heads up to like,

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And I'm beating this kid down to a pulp, you know, pulverized them. But, you know, he died too. Actually, he's going now too. But I wound up doing the time and doing the time is when I met a lot of people more, of course. And then of course, that's when I found out when my father died because he was still on the land when I got pinched. So after the three years, you basically built some contacts. Like what do you get into when you get out? And who are these contacts?

What are the contacts? Are they? Yeah, that's a good point, too, that you brought up because you, you know, everybody thinks when you go to prison, you're going to be reformed. Now, now, some guys go in and they're scared to death. Some guys go in and they make the contacts and they learn more things than they didn't know in the street. I'm one of those guys. And then other guys are just still stand-up guys and they don't talk to nobody and that kind of thing, you know, because you even get wise guys that are like, oh, I don't want to get in any trouble here. What?

Are you kidding? It's too late to be afraid now. We're here. You know what I'm saying? it but you know they would start writing you know grievance letters or i figure what they used to call them in the top house that's it yeah there you go yeah that's it i'm like you're we're not allowed to write copouts bro we're gangsters we're not allowed to write you know what around you know if you're a gangster you can't write a cop out anyway but you you probably heard that anyways

probably from other people anyway so i meet a lot of people and i heard of some really good scores and i seen the mistakes they made but i hooked up with these guys and they were in the banana family or affiliated. I actually met Vinny Artuso's son, Anthony, Johnny, I'm sorry. And Vinny was actually supposedly in on the hit, on the Paul Castellano hit back in those days. So he was a good kid, this kid, Johnny, nothing to do with the family business,

but a tough guy in his own right. And he helped me out too. I could have got stabbed in there from a couple of guys. And he said there'll be a big war here if anything happens to this kid. because when he came in, I gave him a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. He was starving, you know, that diesel therapy you probably know about. Yeah, the worst. So I hook up with this kid, Bobby Defeo.

He gets out, I get out. Now we start going down to Brooklyn to Anthony Spiro's place in 85th and Bath Avenue. He had a place over there at the Big Apple Car Company. But he's still locked up. He was talking to Bobby. I guess Bobby got to know him. And then now they send them down there when he talks to this Jewish guy, Murray. was his name i don't even know his last name now murray dressed like a wise guy had the snake skin

shoes the nice the bell bottom slacks he you know because he's around that you know what i mean he's not he's not like a jewish guy anymore well we started i started collecting for him and everything because the guy's from bat the avenue there was a there was a group of guys the bat avenue crew they were tough guys and i heard a lot of nice a lot of well a lot of nice stories a lot of good stories about but you know what i'm saying if you're going to be tough guys they they were those they were tough guys well Murray liked him he talked very good about them and stuff and but he showed me a lot of stuff down there in Brooklyn I met Anthony Sparrow's daughter you know and Brooklyn is like different than Westchester I mean it was almost like you had a license to be a wise guy there this guy pull up with a Lincoln opened up the trunk okay what's that you look like an extra large you look like and you give him a hundred dollars and they give you a sweatsuit to wear you know Sergio Dukini or whatever sweatsuits back in them. days but they had swag they had anything you wanted guns but i was like i it was almost like i died and went to mafia heaven you know what i mean it was like it was like great i said holy and i was going

i was so i was so happy down there in one way i'm cooperating with the feds now but i'm happy there in one way because there's a side of me that i grew up with that i'm like wow if it was this good you know but uh yeah go ahead you probably want to know when i started cooperating yeah i was going to say How does that happen? Like, when does that happen? So I'm in Otisville, New York. I find out my father dies. Okay, I'm heartbroken about it, sad as anybody else would be.

I had the body ship back from Honduras is where he was. And so I'm thinking like, okay, now I'm alone. I'm still fighting my case. I don't know what I was facing. I was trying to get three years. Some people said I was going to get 10 years, but either way, I was fighting my case. I had no idea about cooperating whatsoever.

It didn't even register for me to cooperate. You know, that's the way, that's the way it came, because that's just the way we came from. I didn't think, like, oh, I'm going to get out of a bid and talk. I never registered to me. I thought I couldn't talk. That's just the way it was until the FBI pulled me down to MCC. I catch a superseding indictment with my uncle.

And now, I think I'm getting ready to back to Otisville, still fighting my case. Well, I get pulled down to the, to the courthouse again or whatever. I'm sitting in the bullpen. Now I'm walking down this thing. The marshals bring me in there. There's two agents at the end. And I'm like, what's going on?

This ain't the way to the courthouse. I never went this way. But I don't say nothing. And they said, okay, you've got to go with them now. Well, now the agents, yeah, one of the agents that was there that arrested me the day that I hit the guy to beat up the big kid and a couple more agents, the USA, the AUSA, and my attorney. No, I'm looking around like, what's going on?

Benjamin Rosenberg was the AUSA back then. I think he's got a private practice if he's still doing it. I don't even know. So I said, might have I have a minute with my attorney? So I sit down with my attorney for two seconds. I said, Bruce, what's going on? The name was Bruce Bendish from White Plains. Good, good attorney.

Good attorney. And I sit to him. I said, what's going on? He said, well, Joe, I said, I got a call last night. They said, I had to be here today. I said, but I told you, I'm not going to talk to these people. I'm nothing to say to them. he said well what else you got better to do he says see what they got to say just listen to him you know

so i did i sat there for a little bit and they gave you the spiel they give you the old hey you know this kind of life you know you know where you're headed and this and this and that look what happened to your father all this kind of stuff and then they said look we want to show you something so now they take the handcuffs that they put them to the front of me and now they got a stack of photos about maybe this stick you know And I start going through it. I see the cemetery when my father was and everything. And I didn't even notice.

They exhumed my father's body. I never knew this. Now I'm seeing my father for the first time on a slab after a couple of years he was gone. And he had decay on his face and everything. He had a scar on his chest. And that was the first time I saw him after a couple of years. Well, needless to say, it was pretty emotional for me. So they gave me a few minutes.

They walked out of the room. I was with my attorney. I listened to what they said. I just didn't have the head to talk to them anymore, and I went back. Being in prison, I guess I was doing a lot of thinking, what's going on, what happened. They told me actually at that time that somebody went down there, three people went down there to kill my father. Why? I don't know.

The only reason, one of the reasons why I believe him, because some people would say, why did you believe him? And I agree with them. Why would I? Before my father went on the lamb, he showed me a card. The FBI came to the house. And I said, you know, FBI, however, their logo is and shit. I said, okay. And I said, what's up, Dad? He says, well, they told me that there was a, they intercepted a call and they said, we got to get rid of J.B. Now, to that point, I do believe them to because they're supposed to by law come to inform you that there's a hit out on your life or your life's in danger or however they want to phrase it. I think I actually know who put the hit on my father if it's a real hit because the guy didn't like my father. And I don't like him either.

And I talk bad about him all the time because I don't like him to this day. But it goes back to the story with Mickey Generosa. I think he's the one to put the hit out on my father. And there's a lot of reasons why. And I won't get into him and Boyer's show. But, anyway. Well, I mean, another reason to believe that is that they exhumed the body. They didn't exhumed the body. You didn't get permission to assume the body if there was no evidence to support it. You can't just go into a judge and say, hey, I want to pull this. I want to, I want to exhume this guy's body and do an autopsy. You can't say that. You got to go to the judge say, this is why we believe that this is what happened. And you can't just say it. It's like,

this is the proof. Here's the, you know, here's the transcript. Here's the video. Here's the, you know what I mean like yeah yeah Matt let me tell you something that's a that's an excellent a point that you're making and I'm going to tell you would to exhume the body they told me later on the FBI that they didn't know if it was my father they thought they were just sending and pretending that he was dead so they did tell me that much yes so you brought up a very good point and I thank you for that I never even said that on the air till this time is the first time is actually that's a very good point the other point is is My father was supposed to be cremated because he didn't want to, you know, that's what he wanted.

But we had the body ship back anyways and we're going to have a cremated here. But it didn't happen. That way, he got buried with my mother. But three months later, they dig the body up. Okay, now I'm still fighting the case. Like I said, I'm not trying to pat myself on the back. I don't know anything what's going on until I get the interview from these guys. Now, it makes sense a little bit that, like, you know, to me, in my mind,

somebody did go down there to kill him because there was another wise guy that he was hanged that was down there that ran away i don't know his name but that's how they my father knew about it and he also paid the the government money you know had to give him seventy thousand dollars out of the safe deposit box and to go down there with so some of it was to pay the people down there so he had some connections obviously and because they didn't i i used to call him on the pay phone back then you had to go with the quarters and stuff like that well the one time i went to go call him here you remember yeah yeah exactly so it would cost like three dollars and something cents back then i forget but anyway i got the he didn't answer the phone that time and it was disconnected his girlfriend at that time uh is you know told me that he moved you know but they also told me

the same thing too but they told me why he moved they said because he got wind we were going to arrest him but because the officials are crooked and he paid him he wanted he wasn't They warned them. They warned them. And he moved to another villa. See, now all of that is making sense to me. So I'm not trying to say like, oh, yeah, the FBI, I believe everything they say, no, I don't. But the coincidences were not coincidences, you know, because I was there and knew that he did move. I just didn't know the reason why. P.S. I'm in the prison. I'm thinking things out, thinking things over. And I'm like, how am I ever going to find out who killed my father? Because in our life, you're never supposed to tell any. anybody who killed who, what, you know, how are you going to ask? Oh, excuse me, you know who killed my father? Hey, can I get that? Then they're going to kill me because they know what I'm about. They know what I'm going to do.

Boy, assume what I'm going to do. I went to my uncle when I came home later on, but, well, let me, don't let me jump ahead too much. Finally, I called my attorney. I said, come on in. I want to see. He came up. And I said, okay, let's see what they got to offer me.

Let's see what they got to say. Well, I sat down with them. They said, look, no promises, no nothing. They give you like a 5K1 letter. to a judge. They said we could reduce your sentence. Well, the information I gave them while I was cooperating with him, I should have walked out. Okay, I did almost as much time as Sammy the Bull, and he admitted to 19 murders. You know, I solved, I had like two homicides I solved for them and all of this kind of stuff. I should have, I mean, they only gave me four years. I shouldn't

even did four years. But, all right, whatever. They screwed me already there. So that's where the first screwing from the FBI gave me, you know. I came home. I asked him. I came home. I asked my uncle what happened. Did he hear anything? Because that's how my father got his thought to him. My uncle, he's really my cousin, but I call him Uncle a lot of respect. And then he told me everything will wash ashore. He says, and the knife wounds that I saw this, the autopsy supposedly wounds was the way that they did that, he said, to hide the stab wounds. Now, I don't know what to believe. What am I supposed to believe?

Right. So I'm on the, in my mind, I'm on this thing, on this, on this quest, this, this obsession. to find out who killed my father. And that's where I started working more with wise guys and just trying to get close to people. And one of the reasons why I joined the Bonano family was, well, because there was some people in the Genoese family I did not like. The Bonano family was kind of like a more, I can't say better or worse, but they were more lenient. They were more, I don't know, I can't explain it. But then also, somebody in the Bonano family could find out.

because they and they might be up to tell me what happened because it wasn't a direct knowledge from it wasn't really somebody in the Genevievees family because my father was made before he died he did get trained out so okay um but when you get out of you get out do you actually get a handler like do you go to the FBI and say this is what I'm going to do kind of to cover yourself or you just start working with them and think and then they come later because I mean that you smart to go to that person and say this is what i'm going to do kind of gives you a little bit of coverage you know i'm saying like i'm going to go i'm going to do some stuff i'm going to work with you but i'll keep in touch with you by finding anything out i'll i'll call you at least you have a little yeah no you that's right you're right i don't get myself as much credit for being that smart but i started working for them while i was in prison okay so i yeah so i actually yeah i saw i i led them to a double homicide another no i understand that i understand that Yeah, I understand that, but then you got out.

I'm saying, are you still in contact with the FBI? Or did you put that behind you? Get out and just start committing crimes and I'm boosting cars or robbing people or do whatever? And forget about the FBI. There were some crimes I won't talk about. But there were some things I still was doing in the street. I was collecting money. I was loan sharking again.

But the FBI guy came to me and said, you know, he met me, woke to me home. appreciate everything that I did for him. And he says, listen, he said, do you still want to work for us? You know, this is what you could do. This is what you, you know. And he actually gave me the green light to do whatever I wanted to do. Yeah, you know, without. Yeah, exactly.

Without, without, you know, as long as I bring information to him or whatever, but without getting myself in trouble. In other words, I, I'm not supposed to what they said, initiate the crime. But basically if somebody, yeah, I know, it's the joke. I know it's a joke. It's funny. But anyway, I started working with him for a little while when I first came home. I stopped when he told me that he came to me and he said, listen, Joe, he says, we can't protect you as good as we used to anymore.

And I said, what does that mean? He said, because there's a new law, something came out where he was, him and maybe one other person supposedly only knew about me that was working in the feds. But now it's supposed to be common knowledge in the feds who's working with who. no more secrets within the agency or something like that. It was like a database now. Exactly. So what happened was exactly. So actually he said, I don't trust everybody I work with, he said.

And he also don't trust assisting U.S. attorneys because they, now, you know, now if they know that I worked with the feds and they could say it in the street. So I took even a bigger chance. Yeah, that's super telling that he would say, I don't trust everybody that I'm more. like he that's super telling on the the bureau in general and yeah he and he was pretty big up there he he became a sergeant while i was working on and vincent brousuti was his name he was my handler for 18 years i practically built his whole career with him he retired at 20 in 20 years i was with him for 18 so as a matter of fact him and i had a slice of pizza or two and a couple of beers when he

retired he said you're the last person i wanted to see before i finally say goodbye to everybody i said about everybody but I wanted to share my last time with you imagine that so anyways uh you know I pretty much had car blanche I mean I was he knew what I was doing I did get caught doing something and he kind of squashed it a little bit helped a friend of mine out that's all it was nothing big but anyways uh you know that's what that's pretty much what happened the minute he retired in I think he retired in October I forget the year I get arrested three months later from the new guys. I was still working with this guy, Mike Trumbetta,

because he introduced me to him over the years a little bit and said, listen, anything happens? Would you still work with Mike? And back then I said, yeah, but how stupid? I could have said, nah, you retired Vinny? How about me retiring? That's what I should have said. I was already a millionaire.

I owned a million-dollar home. Everybody loved me in my town, my neighborhood. I still had friends all around. I should have just said, well, if you're walking away, why couldn't I walk? Why don't I walk away? You don't need me anymore, but no, I didn't do it. And that was, that's the biggest mistake of my life. Well, let's go back to when you got out of prison.

You got out of prison. You're working with him. You're still doing stuff. You're not telling them everything, but you're telling them periodically, you're giving him stuff. Yeah. What happened there? How did that progress? Like what kind of cases are we?

Basically, I don't know what cases he developed from anything. I mean, he just pretty much told him who was in the life, what I did, you know, stuff like that. You know, they said I gave a lot of license plates and phone numbers. But I did a lot more than that. I told them the guy, people's positions, what I heard in the street or something like that, who might have got shot, who got killed, who, you know, whatever it was. You know what I mean? Are they, are you on, are you getting money for this?

Is this like? No. The only thing, I never wore a wire. The only time I wore a wire was after my second pinch against the guy that was with me. and I wore it purposely because it proved that I, that this guy and I were not talking about what they were trying to pinch me on. But other than I, I never wore a wire.

And the only time they ever gave me money was when I told him I spent $500, $1,000, you know, that kind of thing. That's, they only reimbursed me. But I was allowed. I found out later on in my second pinch that I was allowed up to $100,000 a year. Yeah. And I could say, these guys are really getting paid. Well, yeah.

My friend, I was talking to my friend Dominic Sicali. I don't know if you know him. He was my captain in the Bananao family. He's got, he's a mafia round table and Sicali unfiltered. Well, he told me, he said, why didn't you ask him for that you spent, told him you spent 50,000. You know, we went to the strip club and you spent 50,000. I said, I didn't know back then that I was allowed that much money. Otherwise, maybe I would have, you know, but I didn't know.

I wasn't doing it for the money. I wasn't doing it for anything except to find out who killed my father. That was my sole purpose. Unfortunately, I never did find that out. But I'm getting, I think, a little closer even to this day with my friend Dominic. So, all right. So you do you get, so you go eight, you in 18 years and never got arrested again? No, never got arrested.

Uh, nothing like that. Nope. I was not under the radar, but we were doing things. I mean, I had to go to places. It was probably going to be a couple of murders I was involved in. They just didn't happen. at that time. And so I actually was fortunate in a lot of ways in that respect. Otherwise, I would have to put in a piece of work. So what are you, what are you doing for the, for your

for a living? I mean, you've got, are you loan sharking? Are you know, back then I was yes. Back then I had to. I mean, I still was making some decent money. I had a girlfriend that was rich. She took care of me as well. We took care of each other in a lot of ways. And so, you know, I was pretty, I kind of, I did what a lot of guys do. Sometimes they, they float, they coasts through life a little bit until life puts the hammer down on them and then that's it. And that's what happened with me. So that's it. So what happened when your, uh, when your handler goes to retire?

I mean, he goes to retire. You're saying they, they handed you off to somebody else? I went to Mike Trimbetter. Yeah. He said, listen, you know, Michael, Mike Trebeta will call you and this and that. And then, um, you know, I started having problems with some people because all the guys that I was around got arrested. And then, you know, my circle kept getting smaller.

And I was trying to get like away from everything. I was pretty tired after 18 years. I kind of gave up about what happened to my father because I just never got no answers. And then the girl that I was dating started, I hooked her up with this guy, Sammy. And to help her out with her diners. she owned and then this guy bought this guy buddy israel torres around another dirt bag uh supposedly a tough guy well i you know everywhere i go you know this is one thing i got to say matt you've been around i'm not gonna you you know probably what i'm saying everybody oh this guy's

tough that guy's tough don't mess with this guy that you know something i'm not going to say that that's not true but when it comes time to prove themselves when i have to deal with them let's see what that happens then if i get beat up or killed then that's okay they're okay then you won you were the tough guy but i'm tired i was always hear the shit this guy's good with his hands this guy do you know because i hope he's good with his hands because you know it's easy to pull a trigger not hard but let me see if the guy's good with his hands so i had a problem with this guy up there comes to the diner with some big muscle bound dude staring me down like this giving me to look like you know and i was like okay what is that supposed to do scare me now like

you know and we sat down and the guy gave me his work I'm over here now and this and that. I live for this kind of life. All this baloney, you know. But he could never be a wise, a made-a-wise guy because I think he was Puerto Rican, Cuban, or something else. So he was no wise guy. But he worked around these guys. He pretended he was Italian, you know. But anyways, I left her. Things went bad, and this guy set me up for a murder for hire hit that was never going to happen. I proved it in court, in trial, but that's where I spent a lot of my money. What do you mean, I mean, a murder for hire hit? Like, how did that?

They offered you money to kill somebody and they had you on tape? Some guy, my friend, who he's passed away now, my friend, Tony, Polaro, we talked about it a little bit about killing his partner. They had a million dollar life insurance policy out. He said, I'll give you half a million dollars. And I listened to him because they thought it was a wise guy. And so a lot of friends of mine came to me with proposals. So I'll say like that. And I say, yeah, yeah, I'll look into it.

But it was only me. And I said, no, I couldn't work out or let it go. I would make up all excuses. Well, this one guy, this one time he came to me, this is actually the second time he came to me to kill somebody. I said to him, okay, let me check it out. And so I had this guy that was hanging around with this kid, Mike. And I sent them up there.

I said, here's a few dollars. I gave him like $1,000. And he was like a real thug. type of dude, scary looking guy. But it was nice to keep my street cred up a little bit with him. You know what I mean? Like I can got no only, yeah, it's like I'm with the Italians, but this kid was black. And, you know, he was cool.

And well, he went up there, he took a video to place. He said, look, it can't be done. And I knew he would say that to me because he didn't want to do it, but he just wanted to make the thousand. So now I have proof. I go to my friend. I say, listen, can't be done. Don't worry about let it go. Well, months later, this kid gets pinched, Mike.

And now he says, I know this gangster, and he wants me to kill this guy. And you're talking, this is six months later, eight months, almost like eight months later or whatever it is. And we're talking about it. I'm pretending like, yeah, it's still going to happen. I said, you know, but I, he's wearing a wire on me now. Well, now I get pinched. Anyways, now I got to go through the whole system again, the whole rigmarole.

Of course, I get found not guilty in court. And actually, Mike became one of my best witnesses for the, the, did the assistant u.s attorney they hired this they they pulled him to testify against me he testified 80 percent the truth um for me because he you know he he couldn't he didn't know how to lie like that he actually told the truth so anyways i get found not guilty and then i get released and now um you know with the few dollars i got and all that kind of stuff i try to start a new life but you know my whole thing when I started my my show you know the good fellow podcast it was all just about how how crooked the FBI is the FBI and you probably notice for yourself too like I said you you you you've done

you know what they're I'd rather die with the wise guys that be caught up with the FBI they're more crooked because they they have a they pretend they're the good guys and then they stab you in the back okay the wise guys are not pretending they're good you know what I'm saying that There's no faking in there. They are what they are. You know what kind of life you're in. You know what you're dealing with. And that's it.

Now, did I meet a couple of really good guys in that life? I absolutely did. Okay. But you know how rare that is to get a guy that's really on your side? You know, but the FBI do me to the, not the wolves, to the whole jungle. And they did it purposely. Yeah. Well, how?

What happened? Well, they, I had to. I came for my trial. I had what they call a public authority case. That's what I was trying to say before. Public authority can say public something. I got the word. Okay, hey, not bad, right?

Yeah. So my attorney, Jose Munez and his staff and his people, at that time, my fiancee at that time, worked tirelessly to get me off. So the public authority case, you know, it exposed me. I had no choice but to tell the truth. And then believe me, let me tell you something. When I, and when you talk about the truth, I was so happy that I had a jury trial.

You know how like you're facing the audience out there in the courtroom? The jury's to your left. The prosecutors and everybody's over there. And you're like over to the right a little bit. I completely turned my chair and I faced a jury to tell my story because everything I told them was right on the money. I didn't have to lie. Matter of fact, my attorney didn't go, okay, now, you know, what you're going to say if they do this? if they say that.

He never said nothing. You know what he told me? And this is his exact words. Talk to them like you're talking to somebody in your living room. Right. And I did. I had my clear glasses on because I couldn't see them. And I looked right at them dead in the face.

And I wanted them to see my face because I wanted them to see that I was telling the truth. And I got found not guilty. Okay. Think about that. And that was a big murder for hire case. And my friend Tony, who passed away, like I said, may rest of peace. He told me, Joe, could you say it? Could you say that? I says, Tony, relax, bro. I'm going to tell the truth. We're going to, it's okay. Don't worry about it. God's with us. We're going to be okay. Sure enough. He was scared to death. He never took the stand. I did. And I was up there for a day and a half. Because my story isn't there just something you can do overnight?

And you're basically saying, look, I had public authority to, which means I'm allowed to behave in a criminal manner as long as once I've developed a case, I bring it to the authorities. And I'm, I'm allowed to conduct crime along the way to further that investigation. But at no point was this guy ever going to be murder. That's pretty much what I said. Right. Like I can talk about it. I'm setting people. I'm in the midst of setting people up.

Like that's not, you can't stop halfway through. If I'm setting up a fake drug deal and I say, yeah, yeah, I'll buy, I'll buy 10 keys from you. You can't arrest me. You know, because I'm waiting for that guy to say, yes, for us to arrange a meeting where I know, I know the drugs are going to be. Then I go to my handle or I say, look, I got it. Here's what time it's going to be. Here's what's happening.

It's a waste of time for me to be telling you every step of the way. How do you get information if you're not with the people you're dealing with? How are you supposed to get the gain of the trust of people like this? Okay, these people are not dumb. There's not all of them that are smart. But how are you supposed to go into a place and you're supposed to you're shaking the place down or whatever you're doing? and I'm not supposed to do anything. Just stand there?

I mean, you know, they pretend they're, we didn't authorize them to do any of that to protect themselves. But listen, I had to collect money for a girl once, okay? It was $10,000. I seen a, I seen a guy from this place called Bichetto's in the Bronx, okay? And he says, yeah, go get the money. He says, and anything problems or whatever, you come see us, don't worry about it because he was affiliated with them.

I go to this guy and I said, before I go to him, I said to her, listen, is there anything I need to know before I see this guy face-to-face? You're telling me everything? You know, you're a single mother. You loan this guy 10,000. I don't care how long you know him. Are you sure you didn't do anything with this guy? No, no, no, no, no. I swear.

Okay, no problem. I go see the guy. I says, Pat, yeah. Joe, yeah, he gains me to $450 because he was going to give you $4.50 a week until he made up the money. I said, okay, I'll see you next week. time he says yeah i start turning around he goes joe could i see you a minute and i go like this okay you know what he said look i just won't let you know i i i didn't want to tell anybody i fooled around with her and all of this kind of stuff like this i said well see and i said well no don't worry about

i knew about this already see i had to pretend like i knew but that's like throwing me in the pit with the lion and saying no he's not gonna he got no teeth in his mouth and you don't give me a knife or shield a spear or a gun anything you don't do that kind of stuff but this is is what the FBI does they put people's lives at risk my life was at risk the whole 18 years my handler vincent bazzi god understand and my attorney asked him straight out jose mune says was joe's life ever in danger he said all the time now what's funny is before he said that he said oh the what the gangsters aren't what they like used to be you don't got to kill anybody anymore to get in they now it is not what it used to be but meanwhile my life was in danger all the time

Right. Okay. So here he is contradicting himself right on the stand. So he says, what about, he says, what about these late night meetings that he would go to two o'clock in the morning or whatever the case may be? He says, did he fear for his life? He said, yeah, I made sure that he, you know, he talked to me or whatever. It's all in my transcripts. It's all in black and white. So look, my friend Dominic, if he would have found out, now, Dominic and I like this, we're close as anything. Probably closer now than we was even in the life. but we were closer in the life if he found out for one second that I was cooperating he would have pulled a bullet in back of my head and we all know this okay so you mean to tell me my life was never in danger he called me 11 o'clock I don't know in the afternoon 11 o'clock at night two o'clock in the morning whatever it was I had to go you know what I was thinking when I was there this is my last road trip right but I still went so anybody wants to call me a punk and all of this kind of stuff like that. I was going to my debt in my mind.

You know, and I'm not saying I'm a tough guy. I'm not trying to say, oh, you better watch out for me. No, but I still went. Let me see how many other people are going to go doing what I was doing, okay? And want to still go down when somebody calls you like Dominic. Who would have killed me like this? Because that's how true to the life he was. You know, you know, look ahead, Matt. I'm sorry. No, I was going to say, it's funny when I was incarcerated and there was a, I cooperated

against the guy that had run a Ponzi scheme and he'd stolen $57 million of like pension fund from pension funds and churches and you know and what he was doing is supposedly he's supposed to be investing the money and really he's just spending it yeah so it was it was a 200 and I'm sorry it was a 102 million dollar Ponzi scheme but that's you know how the government bullshit it's but it's bullshit I mean yeah what was really lost was 57 million you know they they say like all the money that and then what the profit but the profits in is bullshit that wasn't real money the real money right what they do yeah they always do yeah make it look for them like they did better yeah it's like ghost dope it's you know what I'm saying um so uh but it was 57 million and he had hidden Ponzi scheme money and I've got the

I got the this was a secret service they're emailing me on the core link system I don't know if you you have core links right in in federal prison Did you have email? Yes. I did have email, yes. So that's called, that's Corlinks. Oh, okay. I didn't know that what it was called.

Okay. Yeah. So they're emailing with the secret. I'm in prison. Really? And they're like, hey, find out who, uh, if this person was involved. And I'm like, well, I've heard about this person before. So I can, I can bring that up in conversation.

And so maybe in that couple days, we're walking the track. And I mentioned whatever this guy was doing. blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, that, that chick was helping. And the other guy was, he was the financial guy, right? Like, what happened with that guy? And then the guy would start, you know, you spark up a conversation, you hope that he says something. Then they come back and I'm like, okay, he said this and this.

And then they come back and they say, hey, find out this. And I'm like, okay, I don't know who that is. They're like, well, just bring it up in a conversation. I'm like, how the fuck am I going to bring it up in a conversation? I don't know who that is. Tell me something else about it so I can know how he's. involved. Oh, we can't do that. I'm like, then I can't help you. They're like, we're just bring it up. How am I going to bring up Tom Phillips? If I don't know who he is, I don't know

he's a financial advisor. If I don't know how he's in, he fits in this. Like, you're trying, like you guys are fucking idiots. You're trying to get me stabbed. I'm in prison, cooperating, trying to get information out of a guy who's hidden Ponzi scheme money. So you guys can look good, but and you're trying to get me killed. Like, and I'm telling them like, bro, you better tell me something else because there's no way I'm going to, what am I just going to say, hey, whatever, whatever it happened with Tom Phillips or whatever the guy's name. He's going to go, the fuck if you ever hear that name. You see what I'm saying like, I can't do that. Like, tell me something. Yep. You know, that happened over and over again. And then they're like,

we'll just bring it up. Listen, listen, bro, I don't know who's teaching your how to run an informant um uh you know little uh unit of of of or or you know thing that you got going here but you're i'm surprised you're not losing more informants you know you're you're asking you have to use your fucking head you have to give me enough that i can spark a conversation that's going to feel organic or this guy's going to get wise they just like they're just like you were saying like sometimes they just don't give a fuck nope their whole their whole thing is the engine justifies the means. They don't care anything about anything else. If they pretend they care about you, it's a lie. You know, you know, the other thing, you know, the other thing was funny. Like,

they, they were constantly offering me money. Do you want to put money on your books? Do you want me? And I, I was always like, no, because I had met a guy who'd cooperated. And he cooperated. And when he got in front of the judge and they were arguing for more of a reduction, the government came forward and said, your honor, we don't have to give him anything at all. We've been paying him for the information. Oh, wow. Anything. He should be thanking us for giving him.

Because we paid cash for this information by putting money on this guy's books or whatever. I think he wasn't in prison. They were giving him money. Right. Which was when he was the street. But they're like, we were paying him thousands of dollars every single month. So technically, we don't feel we need to give him anything. And I always thought when they were like, hey,

we can want me to put some money on your books and i was like no it's okay it's okay or when they would come see me they look well let me bring you lunch don't bring me any well yeah i'll bring you do not bring me anything right right for you don't bring me a soda i say because here's what's going to happen and they were like oh i would never do that i said wait a minute first of all you can't promise me anything you're just an agent the only person that can promise me anything is the u.s attorney and they'll do that they'll say oh i promise you're going to get this much the fuck or shut up you don't you can't promise me now you're just a liar right but most people don't they expect you to not know that i only knew it because i'd been in prison and i was being told by

people who knew what was going on this is the reason why prison makes you a lot in way i mean look obviously you're you you seem you got you got your life together you don't seem like no slouch to me but you can tell how when you go to prison you do learn a few little things extra that you know whether it's, you know, on one way or the other, it don't matter. You do learn things. And thank God you did. Like me, look, I just took the money back that I got that I spent. So basically, that was okay.

So if they were going to try to use that with me. But look, when I had a lawsuit against them was I tried to sue them for what they did to me. They put my whole life in danger for the rest of my life. Well, of course, it gets shot down in summary judgment because, you know, they don't want to, they know I could sue them, you know, but I was going to sue them for $20 million. But alone, in 18 years that I worked for them, that would have been a million eight if it was $100,000 a year. So, you know, just that alone, I mean, look, I'm not greedy. I'm 63 years old.

I'll be 64 this year. So I'm an old guy. If I had a couple of million dollars under my belt, whatever the case may be, that's all I would need to before I die. How much more do I need? I don't need, look, it's nice to have 10 million, 20 million, 100 million. Yeah, that's all good. But how many more free lunches can I have? I just want to live quietly, which I'm kind of doing now.

That's all I want to do. I don't need all of that hype. I don't need to show off. I don't need to be like a gangster anymore, even though it's always going to be in me to a certain degree. Like Pistone, the guy that was in the Donnie Brascoe movie, he's always acting still like a gangster. You know, even my hand living, he told me that back in the day.

He said, this guy, I met him a couple of times. He said he thinks he's a gangster still. Because he was so undercover. And even he admitted he won't tell everything that he did in that life when he was working on the cover. Now what does that tell you? But yeah, he's okay to get away with it because, oh, that's right. He had a badge, but Joe Barone didn't. You know what I mean?

So I forget the guy's names, but I was locked up with a couple of guys that he had busted. Oh, really? Okay. And I mean, Johnny Barrasco would come on TV. And the guys, I was in the medium, the guys would be like, hey. And I forget one of the guys is like Tony or Anthony, or they all got the, you know,

those names. Tony, real Jewish name, right? Look, yeah, Johnny Brasco goes on the thing and these guys would, that motherfucker fucking piece.

And they were so nuts. And I'm like, why do you keep telling these guys? This thing. It's fucking crazy, bro. They hate him. The one thing they always said was they were like,

so like if you read the books and stuff that you talk to those guys, they're like, listen, they make him seem like he wasn't doing it. They were like, The reason he got in so ingrained with them is because he was doing so much crime and committing such blatant criminal acts that was so above the pale of what they're allowed to do that they believed him. They couldn't even convince him.

When they walked in and showed him photos and everything, they were like, no, no, why? Because I know this guy's done insane fucking criminal acts. Without a doubt. You never would have approved. He couldn't be FBI. Well, this is the reason why he won't even say to things. and he's even said that in his books. I mean, look, thank God he was able to hand himself before.

He had a couple of fights in there that he did discuss about, that people tried to scare him. But it's a lot easier to know that you got a whole bunch of guys behind you in case you having a fight. You know what I mean? It's like, look, if I go into a fight in my situation now, it's only me fighting. There's nobody going to say, okay, I'll pay your lawyer.

There's nobody saying, we'll get you out of trouble. No, it's only me. Okay, so I have to be careful. But when you got a bunch of guys, you know, they'll take care of you, they're going to be behind you and all that, especially if you're an agent. But that's what I'm trying to say. How do you get close look?

You got you got Greg Scarper, okay, the grim riper they called him, working with the FBI's. And they still let him do everything he wanted to do. Okay? They had Whitey Bolger. And they wanted him kill because he probably could have told these people exposed the FBI even bigger than me. Because he was actually with them. You know what I mean? Even more.

They were together like, you know? Well, the scarf case, they were giving them names to kill people, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And that was the one when he went down to the member of Mississippi burning thing, and he almost killed that guy to get the information where the bodies were buried. You know, and he was a tough guy.

I mean, he's the type of guy you don't want to mess around with. He was, listen, he got shot in the face and he still was shooting the people. You know, this guy, you know, this is not somebody you want to play games with. You know, and I mean, God bless him. I don't care that he what he did it. That to me doesn't mean nothing or whatever the case may be. But he had permission. How do you be what you want me to be?

And you can't, you have to do it. You have to be in it. That's why the FBI said to me, that's why Vinny told me straight out, blunt in my face, not once but twice, said it to me, do what you have to do to protect yourself. Because the number one thing is never exposed that you're working with the feds. And I mean, that's like a no-brainer anyway.

But do it to protect your identity. I know, right? But do it to protect your identity. Otherwise, you know, and then come tell us that you did it so we can say, Hey, you came to us. You're working with us. So, you know, but it made it look like, like if I told them I did something, they would have to say, okay, no problem, they're going to take me out.

But they weren't going to protect me. They're going to throw me to the walls like anything else. I was going to go to jail. Who knows what the hell else they were going to do to me? You got no recourse with these people. Remember, you're dealing with the federal government. They got unlimited funds, unlimited everything, you know. And they're not going to care about little old Joe Barone for what?

right so you know but it's it's you can't it's it's it's like anything else okay i'm gonna i'm gonna fool around with a girl and fool around with a girl i'm gonna only do one way and not 10 different positions or whatever may be you know come on you're gonna you're gonna go all out you know you were saying something about would you go back to this or that and the the reasons why you mentioned it were spot on but the other thing is too if you're gonna do something it's got to be big you know don't do it big or don't do it at all You know, the whole thing is, like I said, if I would have walked away with a couple million dollars for my lawsuit, I would just pack it up. And I probably wouldn't even have done my show or anything like that because I don't want no exposure.

Just want to live nice and quiet. You know, I'm done. So you got out. Yes. And you started a podcast. How long ago did you start the podcast? I don't know if it's quite a year now or not. I mean, how long?

It's about a year now. You got the Godfather. You got the Godfather logo. Oh. The words or the banner across it looks kind of Godfather, right? Is it Godfather? Yeah, it's like it, you know, we got the theme to one of the songs and the Godfather I liked and stuff like that too.

Listen, most of my experiences, some things I can say to and some things I, of course, I can't and I won't. I mean, but I like my. guest that I've been coming on and stuff like that. I like all the people interviewing them. A lot of the stories are all similar, you know, and it's amazing how no matter where you're from, you kind of grew up almost the same kind of way. Isn't it weird?

You know, if I never went to Brooklyn, but I met somebody there, he'd have the same similar stories as me, you know? Right. So it's just, it's just, it's just funny how it all kind of unravels the same, same way, you know? in it because like I said I'm exposing what it really is also I'm exposing the life the wise guy life ain't what it used to be and even when I was a kid growing up and I was hanging around with the third street guys we didn't really like gangsters really we were like you know who they think they are and those kind of stuff like that but uh unfortunately I fell into it you know you know have you ever I'm sorry they're out for themselves as you know oh of course have you ever um well it just it just kills me these guys that idolize the gangsters. And it's to me, it's like,

okay, these are guys that are shaking down, you know, mom and pop stores because you're not shaking down Starbucks. No. Right. You know, you're never getting into the meeting. You're never getting into the boardroom or to the meeting to try and say, you guys got to pass this or we're going to throw bricks through your windows and burn your places down.

It just never happens. Like there's the, I think it's a Sammy the Bull was talking about how they were trying to get to Trump. You're never getting in the elevator to get up to see Trump. Like you're not shaking Trump down. I've got too many. I got too many staff. You're never getting here. You're never going to be paid.

Even if you throw a couple of bricks through some windows, they're just going to keep fixing the windows. That's right. And eventually, you're going to get tired of throwing bricks. You're going to realize these people don't even know why these bricks are being thrown through the window. So who you're really shaking down is the mom and pop stores.

That's it. You're lending money to guys that have gambling problems. And then these guys, they idolize them because they're driving nice cars. Same reason kids idolize drug dealers. They've got the nice cars. They've got everybody respects them. But in the end, you're selling drugs to, you know, to people that have drug problems.

Like you're taking advantage of, I mean, not that I'm saying I'm in and better. There's no reason to idolize, you know, anybody who's really committing crime in general. But just so you know, Matt, even the legitimate businesses, you know, how it is to have a legitimate business and try to sit down with the seal of a company or to try to try to sit down. with like somebody from Starbucks their team or even somebody that they let somebody talk to them or even to try to get a message even if you were legitimate look most of the most of the businesses today even though some of them are affiliated with the mafia all legitimate because where's the real hustles today you know you to be a drug dealer most of the time it's you got to you got to be

in bed with some really unsavory people it's not even like you know it's a class act more, you know what I mean? Which, believe it or not, even though that's one thing, I don't even know why the wise guys got away from it. I mean, of course, they said because there's a lot of time and more people might snitch on you and that kind of stuff like that. I get that. But at the same time, if you ran it the right way and you had, you know, that's why the Mexicans

picked it up. That's why the Dominicans picked it up. That's why the El Salvadorans. That's why all the other people picked it up. The Chinese mob picked it up because we walked away from it. You know, so you, you, you messed up. They're targeted. Yes, exactly.

You know, so you were the entire organization was targeted. I mean, Lisa, everybody's like, oh, well, the mom's basically, it's, it's over. Like, it's kind of a, a boutique, you know, organization at this point. It's, it's so small that they don't have these massive rackets anymore. They're giving away so much time that the feds. You can't go to trial on the feds. It's virtually impossible to, to beat them. Well, you know why, don't you?

It'd be most people take a plea. That's why they have such a 99 point something success rate. If most people took the stand and wanted to take it to trial, and they would be so backed up that they would start offering better sentences instead of giving you, well, listen, I'm giving you 10 years. You're going to take 25, 30. It's easy to do that when you have that success rate, but you have it only because most people took the plea

because you figured let's take the plea and that's it, you know. But people aren't going to go to trial. They're terrified. No. I went because I didn't care. I said, I did it. I was lucky. I was fortunate.

I had the grace with me. But the bottom line is, look, you got construction companies. What do you do with construction companies now? You don't shake them down. You get them jobs. So now you're getting money. You see, it's all legitimate now. You're just providing jobs.

You got a connection with this thing or that thing. It's almost like the old window case back in those days. They had the contract to put all the windows in every building that was there. You know, is that such an illegitimate thing? me not really i mean think about it all right so you got the connections like say if i needed something for you mad and i said mad oh you got that connection okay so now we i got a connection to make more people do this so now we're all going to make a lot more money what's wrong with that just because i'm affiliated with gangsters doesn't mean that you're in trouble no we're all making money

you know it's all about the dollar have you interviewed a jean barrello yes i just interviewed him uh oh some weeks back already yeah yeah yeah Yeah. Yeah, he was a good guest, too. And I did his cousin, too, Anthony. Um, he just, you know, he just got arrested. I heard. Yeah. He's out. He's out. Oh, he did go out. Yeah, he called me yesterday. He and his manager called me. They were going to go on the show, but he can't, he can't leave Miami. Like I want it. He was like, come up here. And then we were going to do a remote. And we just never, you know, first of all, he's trying to get, you know, he got out. He's like, you know, by the time he got out, it's like, like, like, like, what? one or two o'clock. And they're trying to scramble to get to a situation, to get into a place where we could do a remote podcast like this. Yes. They's got to get Wi-Fi hooked up.

Like, he's scrambling. He didn't put it. They didn't put it together. So I don't know if he did. There's another guy that. It's just the same that he's always, that he has problems like this. You know what I mean? Because he's, believe it or not, he's really not a bad guy.

No, he really ain't. He's just, you know, even when he called me, he was like, hey, man, what's going on? I got to and I go, what are you doing? What are you doing? They're like, no, listen, you don't understand. Yeah. This one isn't my fault. Okay.

You know, I think, listen, my, my wife works, my wife, it's funny. You'll think this is funny. I met my wife when I was in the halfway house, like five, five, about six years ago. She did five years for a drug conspiracy. Oh, yeah. Me either in the halfway house, we start dating. Oh shit. End up getting married.

But now she. Yeah. That's great, man. I love it. You were so funny, we were talking the other day. And you know, she's always, you know, not always. She was griping at me about, you know, I constantly get the, um, do you love me? I'm like, oh my God.

You know, yes, I love you. I'm laughing. And she's like, and she's like, do you love me like you did in the halfway house? And I go, that's a country song. That would make a great. country so love me like you did in the in the half way holy shit yeah that is i love that well you know what country singer i really like too and i i'm going to mention his name here because he's great will banister he's a guy coming up he's great but that is let me tell you and i mention

him because i bet you if you gave him that lyrics just those couple of things he'll make a song out of it but that's a great song i told her we have to i said we got to have chat gpt write us a a fucking song for that. That was lyric. Yes. You love me like you did in a halfway house. That's great. Oh, my God.

But she, so now she works for, she's a marine mechanic. She got her, back to school, got her certificate and everything to become a marine mechanic. And she's certified and all these things. Worked for a marina for a while.

And then she, she went to work for a company that manages yachts. So she just got her, we just sent her to school and she just got her captain's license. Now she's working on her hours. You have to get like so many. hours before they get your life. That's right.

But the point is that she's, she's, she's at the dock working on a yacht and just so happens Gene walks by. Get out of here. Like I'm standing there on the dock and I turn around. She's like, I'm like, and he doesn't see her.

She says, he's on the phone. Like, I don't know what I'm going to do about this chick. I don't know. Why love her, bro? What am I supposed to do? She's driving me left. And he goes, she calls me and she goes, He clearly has a problem with this chick. I'm like looking at him like, hey, what's up? And he just, he's, he had blinders on.

And he's yelling about some chick. And he's like, what am I going to do, bro? I love her. What am I supposed to do? I mean, hilarious. But yeah, it's like, to me, you're dating these women and you're getting into these arguments and you're getting into these fights. And he doesn't have a problem fighting.

Like, I could be, I can be loud and kind of obnoxious. say some stupid shit. But I'm not going to get into a fist fight. I'm a grown man. I know it's not going to work out for even if I win the fight. It doesn't matter. You win the fight, you go to prison. And Florida doesn't think it's cute.

Florida will send you, you get a fist fight, you break somebody's nose. You're going to prison. And with my record and his record, no. You can't do it. So, but yeah, he gets into these arguments with these girls, screaming matches, doesn't back down, gets into a, mouth off to people in clubs gets into a fight because he won't back down his ego i mentioned this the other day i've mentioned this on a bunch of podcasts is you know i learned a long look i learned in prison

but when i got to prison i gave myself some there was many many stern talks i gave myself and every bad decision i have ever made in my life was based on my ego and i was just like yeah you got to drop that shit. Get rid of it. You, you instead of, you know, when I first got in trouble, instead of claiming bankruptcy and moving in my parents' old spare room and starting over and selling used cars, what I did was, fuck it. I'm not going to, I'm not going to take a step backwards. I'm going to start committing fraud and I'm going to do this and I'm going to make this much money. And I'm, what are you doing? You're digging your hole deeper. I got three years probation the first time. It was a slap on the risk. I should have started over. My ego wouldn't

let me well you see the problem with jean is he's he is a legitimate tough guy and that's it that's the problem he's so tough yeah it's actually it's a it's good for him it works good for him sometimes but he's so tough that it works against him because he won't back down he's not humbled you know what it would take for him to be humbled you know for somebody to really give him the beating that you know you can't you know it's almost impossible so he's not to lose the limb yeah he'd have to lose a leg or something you know you know you'd have to lose a leg or something you know He'd have to be a position that if you got into a fight with him, he'd lose every time. And he'd still have to lose a few fights to figure that out.

That's right, because he's that tough. And that's the thing. See, if I was around him, like, in the days when we were growing up, you know, because he's 20 years younger to me. But if I, if I was, if he was with me or some, the situation with the girls, one thing I learned about girls right away is they love it when you blow up like that. They get, you get mad. You can show you love them. They like that. They feel like you got, they got you because you're getting so mad.

know what the best thing that ever i found out in the world oh is that the way you think honey is that what do you want to do bye and you walk away and then they're like oh my god where's he going he don't care he don't care about me and then they come back to you like oh i'm sorry okay thank you if he could do that he would be no trouble no but it's you know you know you know i can't you know i can't look i just met him so i can't really talk to him that you know that great but i would love to because like I said, he really doesn't have, I think he really has a good heart, to be honest with you. Yeah, no, listen, I like Gene. Every time I've talked to him, he comes over.

I've done a bunch of episodes with him. I will text each other. He's not a bad guy. No. But I've also never pissed him off. Yeah, that way. You do have to watch, right? Yeah, exactly.

You know what reminds me of who's another legitimate tough guy, but a guy that is willing to swallow. his pride, even though most people will think that's not true. But he tells a story. You know who Andrew Tate is? I don't think so. Okay. Well, Mo and Moe will show it.

If you see him, as soon as you see him, you'll be like, oh, I know right away, yeah. So he's a guy who, you know, he does, he mouse off about stuff all the time. He's always yelling. He's always getting in trouble. But he tells a story one time. And listen, this is a guy. He was a, he was,

He was a legitimate, like kickboxer, tough guy, high ranking, you know, a serious guy. And he tells a story one time about being in London where he's dating this girl. And he's like, I'm dating this chick. He's like, we're standing in line waiting to get fish and chips at two o'clock in the morning. He said, like a Rolls Royce or Bentley or something pulls up is these two black guys that are massive. get out, cut right in front of the line. He was in keeping mind, he said, I've been standing in line for fucking 10 minutes.

I got another five minutes to standing in line. Right. Because they walk right in front of everybody, almost push the guy at the counter, you know, out of the way. And they say, I want this and this and this. Nobody says anything. They get their order. And as they're waiting to get their order,

she looks at Andrew Tate, who's a tough guy. He's a gene type of guy. looks at him and she goes, aren't you going to do anything? And he goes, shut up. And she's like, you're going to, you're going to do anything. And he goes, keep your mouth, be quiet. Right. Those guys get their food four minutes later, whatever.

They turn around, they walk out. And she's like, I can't believe you didn't say anything. He is, let me explain something to you. He said, part of being a man and protecting you is knowing. Yep. I can look at those two guys and tell you right now. one, they're very well may be armed. Nobody in London, very few people in London have guns.

Yeah, right. You're not allowed to carry. Yeah. But I can see where they pulled up and stopped. The way they got out, the way they handled themselves, he said, I'm not necessarily afraid. He said, of getting into a fight with one of those guys one on one. There's two of them.

They're probably armed. They're probably connected. He said, I can look at those guys and tell. They've been in prison and they don't care about going back. And if it goes bad for me, I'm dead and you may be dead. So as a man, I have to swallow my pride and say, say nothing. It's five, it's three or four extra minutes out of our, the next five. That's it.

Yeah. That's it. It's not working. No. But you see something that guy, Tate, you're talking about, he's actually more dangerous than they otherwise because he could see the writing on the wall. And I like that. In other words, you're supposed to be able to pick and choose your battle.

really. I mean, let's face it. Sometimes you have to lose the war to win the, you have to lose the battle to win the war. Nobody's Superman. Okay. You, Tate, the two black guys that were big like that, nobody's Superman. Was it really worth it? No. Did they do anything to his girl? Did they insult him in any way? It's same thing to anybody. No. No. It's worth it to walk away. Listen, I don't, I can't tell you how many times in the street since I've been home that I've been walked away from so many fights because you know why i know what's going to happen i'm going to get in trouble whether i get killed or shot or whatever because you where i live there you can carry a gun doing but whatever it doesn't matter i have to say to myself is it really worth it and that's it you know listen if you back me to the

corner that's okay then you'll see the then you'll see the the dog don't just bark anymore i still bite you know what i mean but under under that what do i care you want the hamburger faster I said, I mean, brother, no problem. I'm still going to eat. You know? So I have a question. How many, so you're interviewing people. What, what, how many, how many interviews are you putting out every single or every

week? Right now, I just started interviewing people. So I interviewed about four people so far. I'm still going to go get some other people as well, too. Also, I like to get some of my legal team. I'm trying to get back on to, to get. to expose what the whole court system is like and the battle you got to go through. But I actually like interviewing the people getting the stories, different perspectives,

you know, like that. So I'm going to keep kind of doing it. I kind of like, I find like a little niche for it. You know what I mean? Well, tell Mo, you know, he can go through my stuff. I've interviewed. I typically don't interview guys, you know, mob-related content because, because, but I have.

Like, there's probably five or six out there. I probably would have done 30 people. I'm sure. But the reason I don't is because the way most of these guys talk, you know, they talk like, because it's such a known genre, you know, most people know it. I have a friend named Wade. He knows it inside now. If you say, oh, yeah, Jimmy the Chin or something, he'll be like, oh, yeah, he was with the KZ. easy. He was so excited. He'll tell you the whole thing. He'll do the whole breakdown.

Right. And I'm like, how do you know who that? Because, but when you talk to a lot of these guys, they'll talk like you, like we're talking, like we're in the same family and they're talking about your brother Mark or your brother. Or like, I don't know who, you know, oh yeah, yeah. You mean crazy so and so or they, they said, oh, yeah, yeah, I was with so and so or I was with the, I don't even, I couldn't, I don't think I could tell you the name of the five family. Right. Right. I certainly don't know who made up what. I know John Gotti and stuff because I've watched a couple documentaries and everything everybody knows him. I know some of the bigger ones, obviously, but I don't know necessarily how they, they, you know, interweave and exactly.

But like my buddy Wade, he knows everything inside out. So I typically don't because when I talk to these guys, I realize how little I know. And in order for me to have a really solid conversation, I would have to study for two weeks and read about six books. And then I'd have a decent conversation. And that's not worth an hour and a half podcast. So, and in the end, there's, there's so much, there's so much content out there on a lot of these guys anyway. You, however, will know all these guys. So it requires nothing of you to have a conversation with them.

And you'd have a better conversation than, than I'm going to have. So if you have Mo contact me. And what's funny is like Colby, my, Colby who's my, Colby is my Mo. Okay. Colby will leave all this in there. Okay. Probably not going to cut any of this. But if, if Mo contacts me, I can give him the name of, you know, four or five guys, maybe a couple of lawyers you could interview that are really cool lawyers.

Okay. What else? Appreciate that. Thank you. Probably give you Wade's information because Wade has a channel that I think Wade's got about 15,000. listen, Wade, working his channel for three years. Wow.

Trying about four months ago, he comes to me. He flies down here. He's from South Carolina. He flies down. He says, bro, I'm trying to break 10,000.

Can we do a podcast and mention, I said, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So we do the podcast. And he went from, I think he got an extra 400.

And that pushed him over the 10,000. It was about three, four months ago. He's now at 15,000. Nice. It took him about three years to get to 10,000. He's already at, like, that's what happens. It's such a struggle to get to that. You're like, I'm getting nowhere. No, I'm getting a few hundred subscribers a day. And then, then all of a sudden, you're like, oh, I, you break this one. And then you go, oh, wait a minute. Yeah. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. And it's like, you realize like a year goes by and you're like, it took me three years to get to 10,000. And in the next year, I got to 40.

And then the next year, you're at 150. And you're like, what just happened? And you can't believe it. I know. Right. So I wanted to mention that because I know how frustrating. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. Thank you.

But Wade has so many contacts. Okay. And he's built his channel just doing exactly what we're doing. he just does a stream yard i think he just started interviewing people okay yeah i actually like it you know i like the some of the stories other people tell don't don't have to be wise guys for me either i'm not i'm not limited to what who i could talk to you know uh well i was going to say there's i've got other guys i got smugglers i've got uh there's a guy uh dr how i just interviewed him he went to prison actually he i think he sat with john godd

when he was lying he was in prison with gongotti and he i think he administered his like last you know blessed him or whatever he's he's like a i forget he's a preacher whatever he got his something or whatever yeah yeah well and you also mentioned something about the ponsie scheme that of course you you heard of bernie made off type of thing and all that but you know what gets me is and that's the reason why i was mentioning about how much money you got all these you make you mean you you scammed all these guys out of the money okay whatever right wrong i'm not even trying to debate that what i'm just saying is you got all these millions of dollars why you just pack it in and go away and leave the country and have a nice life for yourself on an island someplace why do you have to still

keep stealing from him in other words you got why you when i was in prison on my first bit i met this guy tony italian guy but he i don't really consider him so italian because he was like upstate new york i was downtown new york so it's like more rough over from he's like country living you know So he told me, he says, you know, he got caught robin six million dollars. He got away with the first million, got away with the second of million, got away with the I said, why didn't you stop with a couple of million dollars? You know how? If you would have invested that money, you'd have been, in 10 years, you'd have been done.

And you still would have been young enough. Like, but the greed. And sometimes it's the greed. And it's also, like when I said, you almost think you got a license to do this now. You never get. Yeah. I used always say, you know, I, I, I always say, you know, I. What I would say is I became, and every time I got away with something, I became emboldened.

Yes. I was so overwhelmingly arrogant that I was, I got to a point where I was just like, they're just not going to catch me because I'm that good. Like, you imagine. Like, it's even funnier now, of course, after getting caught and then you're like, you're an idiot for thinking. And I look back and I would have said that. They'd admit guys would if guys had say if you'd said to me why don't you quit I'd be like anything got they're gonna fucking do shit bro they can't catch me yeah yeah yeah I got them this I got this I got I got it all taken care of I got it all covered yeah well I can tell you

right now it's not what happened no and then look at all the time you had to do yeah yeah yeah I did all I always say 13 years but almost 13 years it's just shy of 13 yeah 13 a long time still no matter how you look at it you know i mean five years paper yep listen the five years paper you know that's another that's another struggle that's actually in one way worse i hate it it's it's like they come and see anytime they want oh and i have a financial uh crime i every month i had to fill out paperwork i have to pay a fine or i'm sorry i have to pay my restitution every month you know you get in your check they're coming back saying no you got to pay more what yep no you this you that listen when everybody

else got their COVID money. Yeah, I didn't. You know, when everybody else, like, you go work a W-2 job and you get back $5,000 at the end of the year, the government takes my money. You know, they government is the worst. Look what they did to Joe Lewis, the box of Joe Lewis, the Bronx mama. That poor guy, he died broke. He made one mistake on his taxes. He wasn't smart like that or whatever. And look what they did to him. You watch the Joe Lewis story one day on HBO, have you in tears. And you know what helped him out, though? too when he was sick at the end was believe it or not was Frank Sinatra

okay Frank Sinatra was not doing that great in his career like as people go up and down in their careers as you know yeah I don't know what it was but Joe Lewis he was doing something in Vegas and he invited Frank up on the stage and something like that and it made him spark them again

to go forward again right well Frank Sinatra never forgot it he found out that Joe Lewis was sick he took his personal plane took him from Las Vegas Vegas to California to get the specialist heart doctor and everything like that. Unfortunately, it was a little too late, but he paid for everything, Frank. He didn't have to come out of nothing because he never forgot.

And see, and those are people like that when I hear, and even like you, yourself, how you just offered your services for me and to help me, I could never repay people like that good enough because that's, that goes to show you how, I think that's a real spirit in somebody, like a real, you know what I mean? Really kind, really good. Yeah, listen, I've had too many people, too many people came, you know, have helped me out since I've been out, you know, and I wish I'd had, you know, it's like, it's funny because like I've made when people come here to the studio. Yeah. What kind of camp?

Do you mind if I look at the cameras? Do you mind pull your phone out? Take a photo of every single camera. Take a picture of what we're using. Take a picture. Like, I'll tell you everything we've got. And I'll tell you all the mistakes. mistakes we've made because we've made so many mistakes.

Yeah. You know, and we're using cameras that are, it's called a Sony ZB1. The reason we're doing this is this, we figured out this is the best camera we can use for the money. They're about 700 bucks. The next camera up is like, probably about 2,500 bucks.

Yep. And the jump in quality is not, it's not enough to do. It's not enough. Right. And the only problem you have is that with the Sony ZV one, if you zoom in, it doesn't do well when you zoom in. You lose quality. And still we've got them sitting like they are sitting right next to. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like we almost zoom in almost none. And the quality is really good with the exception of unless you, unless you said, hey, I want to go with film quality. Like Hollywood film quality. Okay, well, that's different. Yeah. You're going to spend your minimum you're spending $10,000. Oh, without a doubt.

And when you upload to YouTube, it's going to degrade the film anyway. Like, you know, it's. Yep. That's why sometimes there's certain things you don't give up on. Like, I've been eating Skippy peanut butter since I'm a kid. So I don't go, and I'm not saying anything, I'm not knocking any other peanut butter, but I've tried them and I'm just, you know, it's not worth the extra money or even the little bit of money to spend. I'd rather spend them on the Skippy, you know what I mean?

That's it. there's some things you can negotiate with and sometimes you can't like i told uh one of the girls that i was talking to a friend that i was at the place where she worked uh with this guy worked that i was talking and i said listen saying about a bad back and everything i said one thing about the back get the best bed you can that makes you comfortable that you sleep good on because you spend most of your life sleeping you know it's worth it for that extra couple of bucks because that's your life though you don't have to wind up with the bad back and all of this stuff, you know, and that's what it is.

Some things you can save money, sometimes you can't. And sometimes it's worth it. Sometimes it's not. I agree with that a lot. Well, listen, I'll shoot Mo a bunch of guys that I think would be great for your show. Thank you for that. Appreciate that. Thank you.

That's kind of you. You appreciate it. Well, listen, do you have anything else? No, except that I liked your show. I saw the ones with you and Jean, and I watched a couple of shows. So I'm definitely going to keep on watching, keep looking out. Other than that, man, listen, lots of luck with everything. And if you need us for anything, please don't hesitate to shout, you know, give us a call or whatever you need.

We're here too. This is how we build each other up. There's nothing wrong with that. I don't care if you've got a thousand more subscribers or 20,000 more to me. It don't matter. We just build each other up. It's nothing wrong with that. Hey, you guys.

I appreciate you watching. Do me a favor and hit the subscribe button, hit the bell so you get notified of videos just like this. Also, in the description box, I'm going to leave, I'm going to leave Joe's link to his YouTube channel, his clips channel. and probably any social media that he also has. So you can go there, you can follow, subscribe, check out his stuff. He's growing his channel. Also, please consider joining my Patreon. It's $10 a month.

It really does help Colby and I make videos like this. It's $10. And like I said, it does help us. And I really do appreciate you guys watching. Thank you very much. And share the video to anybody that you think might be interested. See you.