Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - Frank Abagnale’s Lies Revealed | The Real Story Behind ‘Catch Me If You Can

Episode Date: December 6, 2024

Frank Abagnale is one of the most notorious con artists in history and the inspiration behind Steven Spielberg's film Catch Me if You Can, starring Leonardo DiCaprio and Tom Hanks. He claims that before his 19th birthday, he successfully performed cons worth millions of dollars by posing as a Pan American World Airways pilot, a Georgia doctor, and a Louisiana parish prosecutor. But this is a complete embellishment. As Javier Leiva of the Pretend Podcast found out, Frank Abagnale was actually in PRISON while he supposedly carried out these elaborate cons. Javier Leiva is the host of Pretend Podcast https://pretendradio.org/ and can also be found on his new YouTube channel at @PretendPod Javier's Channel https://www.youtube.com/@PretendPod/videos Javier's Website https://pretendradio.org/category/pretend-podcast-con-artist-episodes/the-real-catch-me-if-you-can-frank-abagnale/ Follow me on all socials! Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/insidetruecrime/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@mattcoxtruecrime Do you want to be a guest? Send me an email here: [e-mail] Do you want a custom "con man" painting to shown up at your doorstep every month? Subscribe to my Patreon: https: //www.patreon.com/insidetruecrime Do you want a custom painting done by me? Check out my Etsy Store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/coxpopart Listen to my True Crime Podcasts anywhere: https://anchor.fm/mattcox Check out my true crime books! Shark in the Housing Pool: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0851KBYCF Bent: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BV4GC7TM It's Insanity: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08KFYXKK8 Devil Exposed: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08TH1WT5G Devil Exposed (The Abridgment): https://www.amazon.com/dp/1070682438 The Program: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0858W4G3K Bailout: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/bailout-matthew-cox/1142275402 Dude, Where's My Hand-Grenade?: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BXNFHBDF/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1678623676&sr=1-1 Checkout my disturbingly twisted satiric novel! Stranger Danger: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BSWQP3WX If you would like to support me directly, I accept donations here: Paypal: https://www.paypal.me/MattCox69 Cashapp: $coxcon69

Frank Abagnale didn't do half the things that you did or even any of the things that you did. Nobody was chasing him. When the movie came out, when Catch Maybe Can came out, he was getting speaking gigs every day almost. The guy has made a fortune out of a fake story. But it wasn't millions of dollars. It was hundreds of dollars with checks using his own name. Okay, this is not a mastermind criminal. The problem is that Abagnale, like there's nothing backing.

up his version of the story. Like, there's just no real documents, and he's saying things that are completely contradictory to the documents that are out there. Like, hey, I was here at this time. No, you were in prison at this time. This guy was a low-life kind of small-time criminal, you know, like robbing, you know, gas stations and stuff like that. Right.

There was nothing exciting about his real story. So it is embarrassing. to say, hey, guess what? I was really not this mastermind con artist. I was really just robbing, you know, this mom and dad from, you know, like stealing their checks. I mean, yeah, I would be embarrassed, too. Before he got married and before he met Stan Redding,

these lies didn't exist. It's almost like if somebody helped him create this work of fiction. And he's just stuck to it, right? He's just stuck to it for all these years. Hey, this is Matt Cox, and I'm here with Javier Leva. He is currently doing or has done a podcast on the Frank Abagnale story, which is originally taken from the book, Catch Me If You Can, and there was a movie made.

I think everybody knows Frank Abagnale and the movie Catch Me If You Can. And basically, Javier came across my radar, And I thought it'd be great since there are so many people that compare my story to like a modern day version of Catch Me If You Can. However, the Catch Me If You Can story really isn't real. Like it's parts of it. So we're going to get into that. We're going to talk about it. Hey, Matthew.

Thank you for having me. No problem. Yeah. Thanks for coming. So listen, before we spoke, I don't know. and a lot of times people get booked through my booking agent and we're talking and then halfway through the conversation, they suddenly, I'll say something and they'll go, well, you know, maybe I'll say something about my past and then suddenly they'll go, well, what? And they'll, and so I don't

know if you know this or not, because a lot of times people don't even look into who I am at all, which is great, which is fine. But I don't know if you know this, but I was on the run. Did you know this? Yeah, I read a little bit about you when we were introduced. But, I mean, tell me, tell me more about that. It sounds like you're the real, Frank Abagnall. That's funny. Well, you know, what happens is I get compared to that all the time. And when I was locked up, I even read the book several times because I was writing a memoir.

And I, you know, as I read the book, of course, I realized, okay, well, the books, it's not vastly different. It's actually a pretty good adaptation of the book. but just as he was as I was you know read the book had seen the movie read his second book which was I think the um is art of the steel yeah read that book and then when I got out I saw there was there were other there were interviews with him and there were there was a speech that he had given and as I was watching the speech I was like you know none of this was in the book like there were just these constant contradictions to the book and I thought okay well you can't cover everything in the book and I get that and I like there's stuff I just completely left out of my book

because well well it didn't help the over overarching you know the story yeah it has to fit the storyline you know right so it's like why would I go off and hear here but his stuff I was like well some of the stuff he's talking about I was like that's a whole other book why wouldn't you have mentioned that and and so yeah so anyway um But back to what I was really saying was that basically I was a mortgage broker in the late 90s, early 2000, and I had committed some fraud. I'd changed some W-2s and pay stubs. And I got indicted. That's the short version.

Got indicted. I got three years probation. So I couldn't run my mortgage company anymore. I sold it. And I had about 10 or 12 guys working for me. So then I, instead of, you know, instead of saying, hey, I'm going to go sell used cars and just start my life over. I and said what I did was I went and while on federal probation started a larger scam and I started creating synthetic identities. I'm sure you know what that is. So I ended up getting social security

to I figured out how to get social security to issue me social security numbers to people to children that don't exist. I made a fake birth certificate. Yeah, because usually people find dead children or people that used to have. Yeah. That was it was easier just to convince them to issue. shoot me one. Yeah. It took some phone calls. Well, I'm going to have to be on my show now. Yeah, I mean, and this is very much a short version. So I then created synthetic identities, you know, and I, a lot of them, not all of them, but a lot of them had names with like James Red, Michael White, Lee Black, Brandon Green, you know, so green, black, black, white,

silver. So, uh, Reservoir Dogs was a movie I was. Yeah, I was thinking that too. So I started buying houses and recording the value of those houses that like four and five times the value, if that makes sense. And I drove the area up through the, through the roof, then borrowed against the houses on this fake equity because I'd created so many comparables. Ended up borrowing like $11.5 million in about 18 months. Then the FBI shows up. I go on the run for three years. I borrow another about two and a half to $3.5 million. dollars. And eventually the Secret Service catches me. And I, listen, I mean, the talk about Frank

Abagnale, like I was handcuffed in a bank in the middle of a scam, Wachovia Bank, the head of their security department said, hey, this guy's running a scam, questioned by detectives, convinced them that the bank had made a mistake, and they let me go. Went downtown, filled out of police report, the whole thing. I mean, was almost caught by the U.S. Marshals and a Starbucks was in my car, took off. I mean, there's a bunch of close calls, but regardless, because of all those things, and then, of course, there have been programs on me. I've been on Dateline, did two one-hour specials.

I was on American Greed, that sort of thing. And, you know, as much as I hate those programs, if you have to really look back, you know, when I watched them, I was so offended. But looking back on it, I was like, eh, they were pretty much, they were pretty correct. Like, there's 99% correct. Nobody likes to hear their own story. You know what I mean? Yeah.

I've had that happened a lot. Right. Nobody sees himself as who they truly are. Like, you know, the first time you're called a con man, super upset. But now I look at them like, well, what did you expect them to call you? You're a con man. Yeah, but you have that separation. I've had that happen too.

I interview a lot of con artists and nobody calls themselves a con. Like nobody identifies that way, right? I do. But, yeah. Well, but you've had time to have some retrospection. What I love about your story, though, is that you really did all these things. and someone was really chasing you and you were successful, but I bet you're not making $30,000 a speech to just tell your life story.

And that's the difference here. Frank Abagnall didn't do half the things that you did or even any of the things that you did. Nobody was chasing him. But yet he has made a career. And I'm talking about like multiple decades going on stage. Sometimes when the movie came out and Catch Maybe. can came out. He was getting speaking gigs every day almost. Okay. Could you imagine $30,000, $20,000 a pop? The guy has made a fortune out of a fake story that you actually lived

and what's his secret sauce, right? Well, I'm in the movie. Yes, I think so. You just got to convince Steve's River to make a movie out of you. Yeah, which is funny because I remember seeing photos of the movie set where they have him on on you know at an airport he's there tom hanks is there spielberg is there they've he's in the movie he's in the movie did you know no he plays a cameo yeah he's he's one of the uh i forget what role he he he's law enforcement in the movie and he i think he he's pulling uh decaprio off or whisking him away or something like that i can't remember exactly which scene but yeah he's in it Nice.

Anyway, I just remember thinking like the escape from inside of the aircraft. Like, I remember thinking, like, is there a, how does he, is there a door into where the, you know, the, the landing gear comes to that? Like, wouldn't that be airtight? Like, would you have a, how did he access that? You know, I'm always trying to think logistically how things happen. Well, and what you're pointing to is details. So, like, if I ask you the day that you were apprehended, when it finally came crashing down, what was the weather like that day? Do you remember? Yeah.

What was it? Why? I mean, it was a- Tell me about it. It was, it was, wasn't overcast. It was clear, maybe a few clouds in the sky. It was- Do you remember what you were wearing? I actually do, unfortunately.

I mean, I'm hoping that I'm not debunking whatever you're trying to say. Yeah, it was a long-free. I'm not. Longfully skirt. You're right. I don't even need to know what you're wearing. The fact that I saw you recall a memory, you're recalling details that didn't fit the narrative that you usually talk about, right? And that's what Frank Abagnale can't do. So he cannot describe to you the toilet and how exactly he got away because it's not true. You see what I'm saying? If I were to ask him those details, you know, he couldn't answer those questions. That's what, that's the difference between somebody who actually lived an experience and somebody who's fabricating one.

And, you know, investigators do that. They try to throw a curb bar at you. They try to take you back to that place. If you can't get back to that place, you're probably using some sort of deception, right? Law enforcement often questions him, not because he's suspected of a crime, but because they find him fascinating. He is the most interesting man in the world. I don't typically commit crime, but when I do.

do, it's bank fraud. Stay greedy, my friends. Support the channel. Join Matthew Cox's Patreon. Back to the beginning. First, let me ask you, have you finished that series, that podcast series? Actually, I had finished it. It was an eight-part series, but then I got some new information.

I was kind of waiting for the information to pile up. And I have some new testimony from witnesses who have seen him. in between prison, you know, all these incidents kind of, they're important because they go counter to the narrative that he has led us to believe. And so we have some new family documentation that shows a lot of facts about his childhood and his past and his parents that are, they go against everything he's ever described. His mom was portrayed as this adulterous woman who left her family behind. And from reality, this new episode that I'm about to release is that actually the dad was the one who was, you know, allegedly abusing, physically abusing the mom. She had an

order of protection against him. He left her broke. I mean, Frank Abagnall was looking to go to a foster home. So it's actually the opposite. He glorifies his father. And the movie tarnishes his mother's reputation. And then also we just, yeah, a bunch of updates that are great. But the biggest update on the new episode is that he was invited to be a keynote speaker at a CF conference in ACFE conference in Ohio. And that conference learned about my podcast and Alan Logan's book and realized the true story of Frank Abernail. So they invited me to speak right after him at the event. theory. Yeah, and they told them, hey, by the way, do you have any problems with Javier Leva speaking after year? And he initially said that there was no problem, that everything I have to say is

old news. But soon after that, he had a scheduling conflict and had to drop out. So now I took his keynote spot. And I'm donating all my speaking fees to his victims. The victims that he hasn't paid. And that's another lie. This is what makes, because a lot of people, you'll read on the internet, they're like, so what, man? It was a good story. You know, it was a good story. Like, lay off this guy. He was just telling a good story. Some things were fudged. Nobody got hurt. Actually, people did get hurt. And Frank Gabicknell goes around telling people that he hired a law firm to repay all his victims, okay, which if you think about it, that's just as absurd as the toilet scam, because how do you, you know, decades later identify who you ripped off and where

they are now and paid them. So that's a lie. And plus, we know a handful of people who he left you know, like his ex-girlfriend, he left bankrupt. He stole from a working class family. He stole from small businesses. He stole from people in Europe. And those people have not received a red dime. So that's why this story is important because while this guy is collecting a $30,000 check to go speak about a life he never lived, there are people. that are still, you know, broke or waiting for their check. Right. Okay.

So real quick, just for everybody that's listening. So initially there was a book that was written by who is it? By Frank. Oh, you're talking about that when the expose happened? Well, a lot of people have throughout history, there's been reporters and people who have been calling his bluff. But it wasn't until recently that Alan Logan, he's just a researcher. This is his second book.

He published, he basically took all this research, all these news articles that were published years ago, that remember, this was before the Internet. So, like, these articles never really saw the light of day because there were, like, local papers. But Alan Logan was able to bring all these articles together, all these court documents, the jail, the prison records. And he was able to stitch together a timeline showing that from the age of 18 to 21, or 16 to 21, those are the years that Frank Abagnol says he was doing all, you know, the doctor, the pilot, the lawyer, the professor. From those years, he was mostly in prison. So it's impossible for him to have pulled off the stunts that he so famously claims.

So, yeah, Alan Logan's book was great. And what I did was I discovered Alan Logan's book. And I said, hey, Alan, do you want to partner up on this? And I was able to take his book to a whole new level and fill in some gaps. that he wasn't able to fill. And it's great. It's just a, the podcast is such a great companion to the book because if you've read the book, this is like the enhanced version.

Right. Because you get to hear from his victims. You get to hear from, you have interviews. Like, it's a heavily pod. It's a heavily, you know, I always call those, you know, heavily produce. I know you do it produce it yourself. It's a documentary. It's a documentary.

So what's the name of where is it? Okay. So my podcast is called Pretend and the, series is called the real catch movie can it's season 11 is that is that youtube no it's a podcast it's a podcast although on youtube if you find me on youtube um the handle is at pretend pod what i did was i took the pot the podcast and kind of condensed it down to a youtube video so you could see yourself the timeline so i compare the fake story with the real story like side by side so like this year he said he was being a he was a doctor and what he was really in prison

You know, like I compare the timeline. It's really interesting to see it side by side. I don't think Frank Abagnall ever anticipated because he's been on Johnny Carson. He's been on 60 minutes. He's been on NBC News. I don't think he ever anticipated YouTube to be a treasure trove of him talking about these BS stories that are not real. And then I'm the first person to piece them all together, all these sound bites. You get to hear, in my podcast, from Frank Abagnow himself, tell his bogus stories.

which, by the way, he doesn't talk about it anymore since Alan Duggan's book came out. So I have a question because when I was incarcerated, I started writing guys true crime stories, right? Because, you know, I had a chunk of time. I did 13 years. And, you know, after about three years, so many people, there had been several programs on me and people were like, you should write a story, you should write your memoir. So, you know, to do that from prison without the Internet is very difficult. I had to start ordering Freedom of Information Act.

I had to start getting documents in. I had to figure out how the Freedom of Information Act worked. Right. And so I started researching my story, you know, timelines, you know, the specific dates, the names of the agents, like the whole thing. And that took a while. But the great thing was within that year to year and a half, I really figured out how to do it. And then I started writing other guys' stories. So what I'm wondering is, but the problem is that he's.

His story takes place like in the 70s, right? Yeah, yeah. So I'm lucky because I don't know if in the 60s and 70s if they had 302 forms, but the FBI 302 and the DEA 6s and, you know, they're basically, those are the forms for people that are listing. Those are the forms that are listed in someone's case that has interviews, witnesses, they lay out every aspect and they put them in a binder. And that way in the binder, they can see day by day what's going on.

Well, what's great is I can order those and I was able to figure out what they have, you know, what they have when they found things out. It gives you a 360 degree view of a case. But in Abingdale's day, they didn't have that. Yeah, but, you know, actually the story starts in 1964 when he's 16 years old. But we might not have that all bundled up and packaged up for us, but Alan Logan, he's a. hell of a research man researcher that guy can has we have documents like those documents that you described we have them going back to before 9264 we know that he served in the navy he never talks about that he we have like prison record so if you lay out all those documents in the timeline

I mean we I know I know more about this guy's life than I know like month by month than I don't know about my own life you know I mean because that's how detailed it is almost to the month. And so just newspaper articles, court records, prison records, we know exactly where he was. There are some gaps still that we don't know about. But for the most part, we have, like, these are facts. This is not subjective or we're not making this stuff up. These are, like, real records, real dates.

So, I mean, essentially what you're saying is that the book that I read over and over again in prison isn't really. factual like the book that you read in prison was based off of an article written about abignal by a reporter that basically either he accepted the lies and just published it anyways or he was really taken by the story and just didn't fact check it and and he wrote this amazing article outlining all these these capers and that article was used as the basis for the book. Now, and he's, the guy, the reporter, Stan Redding,

who wrote the article also co-wrote the book. If you ask Abagnale today, he's like, hey, but Frank, you wrote this book, and he's like, no, no, no. I had nothing to do with the movie, the book, the play. But his name is on that book. He blames the story now on Stan Redding, who is his co-author.

So Stan Redding, just, I don't know. I was tripping on LSD, I guess, and just made up all these stories. But it's a memoir. It's all in first person. It's being sold as an autobiography as a work of nonfiction right now. So to me, it's like, hey, it's okay if you make a bogus story. Just make it a fiction. You know, but even the publisher has some culpability in this selling it as a work of nonfiction. And it's not, and I want to reiterate that, you know, a lot of movies that are based on a true story. story quote unquote are everybody knows that they fudge things here and there they probably like if

they made your life story matthew they would consolidate some characters make them into one change the time you know like everybody accepts that but what we're saying here is that none of this happened okay some of it happened like he did pose he did dress in a pilot's costume to uh to get jobs to get some free flights, but the vast majority of it is, is baloney. You know, like, you can't pass the law, the bar exam, that quickly without any legal training. I mean, and you cannot work under the attorney or the state attorney general and Louisiana. Nobody knew about him, you know, it's like, it's just a bunch of baloney.

What's funny, when I was reading the book, I remember thinking, because they kind of, It's kind of, you know, obviously it's done in a very whimsical way when he plays the doctor. But I was thinking in the book, they actually have like a medical emergency. Like there's a blue baby, right? And he doesn't know what that means. This is a baby that has stopped breathing. And he doesn't know what to do. And he kind of laughs it off in the book.

And I remember thinking, even in the book, they're kind of joking about it. And I thought, if that happened today and you weren't. weren't a real physician and that happened and they found out you'd be in prison. You'd definitely do some time for that. Yeah. I mean, there's a case I'm working on right now about nurses who got a fraudulent degree out of Florida, like in West Palm Beach. Yeah.

And so these nurses got a degree whether they, what I'm trying to figure out is whether they knew it was a bogus degree. And they got real jobs and real hospitals, right? And so like if those hospitals, I'm sure, silently got rid of these nurses, once they figured it out. But can you imagine how scandalous that would be if you're, if your kid or your parents or you were in a hospital and you're being treated by, you know, a fake doctor or a fake nurse?

I mean, come on, that's outrageous. But he laughs about it. It's a good story. You know, I like the movie too. I love the movie. I love the movie. It's a great movie. I have no problems with the story.

I just have a problem that I know these victims and they don't find it. as amusing as other people do, you know? So, all right, they're apparent in the book, well, in the book and the movie, I always liked the book because the book went more into how he arranged the stewardesses. And he actually sets up a great scam that you understand why he uses the stewardesses. In the book, you understand, like, oh, he's going to take them. he's going to hire photographers do a photo op. They really

believe that they're on a photo shoot for who is it? TWA, who does he? Yeah, yeah. One of the airlines. One of those airlines. They really believe that he does a recruiting thing. He takes them to Europe.

They do photo ops all over Europe. But while he's doing that, he's writing bad checks and getting them to cash the checks for him and then give him part of the money back um as uh for expenses and whatever and of course these are young college girls in the 1970s they have no clue whether this makes sense or or in the 60s or whenever it was i forget but they have no clue if this is normal business practices so they're just thrilled okay so they get a check for $1,100 and they have to write back $400 and this is happening with a dozen girls

so he ends up flying over there flying back and he he's made $30,000 or $40,000. I love that part of of it. Can I tell you the real story? Yeah, tell me the real story about the stewardess. Because that, I'm so glad you brought that up because that's actually part of my new episode, my new bonus episode. Most of his stories are like 90% fabricated and just like based on nothing. This one, however, I learned and I was shocked to learn that it's actually based on some truth. So let me tell you the real story here. Frank Abagnall, dress as a pilot, okay, in his pilot costume, gets out of prison, dressed as a pilot goes to work at a preschool.

He tries to get a job at a preschool. The preschool hires him as an assistant teacher. So like as a teacher's assistant, but you've got to ask yourself, why would a pilot want a job as an assistant teacher at a preschool? That doesn't make sense, but this is what he does, and he gets the job. while working at this preschool, all right, his job is to drive these kids to and from the preschool. He hears the other preschool teachers talk about, hey, you know, we have a holiday coming up. Why don't we go on a little trip? They're probably talking about maybe like a road

trip, you know, like a small little getaway. Frank Abagnall says, hey, guess what? I could get us to Puerto Rico. You guys want to go to Puerto Rico? All expense paid trip. And so he takes a And this is a real story, by the way. This, I feel like it's the inspiration to the story you just said. So he takes these preschool teachers, all-female, to Puerto Rico, all-expense-paid trip, pays for the hotel, pays for their food, drinks, everything. And he's doing this presumably with fraudulent checks, right? Like cashing bogus checks.

But towards the end of the trip, something went wrong. And he's like, we've got to go. And the girls want to stay longer. He's like, no, we've got to get back. They got back to the mainland. And as soon as he got back, he stole the preschool station wagon and drove off. And that was the last those people have, those teachers ever saw them. He, he, yeah, it's bizarre.

But you could kind of see where he got that inspiration, right? Right. Well, plus one of the true stories also was that he was really going to university. Oh, well, that's true, too. As someone who worked for whatever it was, TWA or whoever, I forget. Yeah, so that story is actually quite disturbing, actually, because, and by the way, when I tell these stories, these are based on real testimony. So like that preschool story, I interviewed a preschool teacher. I have the articles to back it up.

Now, this story that you're referencing is that Frank Abagnall in the book claims that he would go to different universities. posing as a pilot to recruit stewardesses, right? Well, that really did happen. He went to the University of Arizona and said that he was a pilot recruiter for Pan Am, that he was going to recruit these stewardesses, so the university arranged to have all these women come into, you know, this, I guess, this room to meet with him. And according to a witness, somebody who was there,

this guy is a credible source. I mean, he was a ex-CIA pilot. He was an airline pilot. I mean, this is a very respected guy. He said, he told me that Frank Abagnall would do physical examinations, like, on these women. So why would a pilot recruiter have to do medical, physical examinations on these young female students? I mean, he was basically, according to this guy, he's taking advantage of these girls. Right.

And, yeah, I mean, that part of it is true. But he never did recruit them, you know, like he never flew them to Europe. I sound like he had something, something else going on. Yeah. I mean, that's, what's interesting about the story is that there's some like eyebrow raising moments throughout his life. Like, why would every, and I told you about the preschool story, but that's not the first time that Frank Abagnale gets out of prison and goes seek employment with children.

Did you know that? When he was in Louisiana, he got out of prison, went to Louisiana, got to tried to get a job with kids with disabilities. Then he went back to prison. He got out of prison. Immediately after prison, dressed as a pilot, went to go to Houston to work at a summer camp for kids, dressed as a pilot.

And then he goes to prison again, gets out, and gets a job at an orphanage, placing children into homes. And then you got the whole preschool situation, too. So that's four different incidents where Frank Abernail gets out of prison and goes. right that you know about that that we know about yeah i mean it's not like every time you go for a job you get a job like he who knows but and i'm not trying to like fill in the blanks for anybody but

i just think that's kind of weird like why would a pilot get a job at a nursery why would a pilot get a job at a summer one thing he's not a pilot so yeah that already makes that oh here's the thing so for the people that glorify him because those people exist and i read the comments all the time They're like, oh, he's still a badass. He's, this is the longest con. You know, the guy is still got it, right? You know, like for those guys? Right.

Let me tell you about a little caper that I just found out that's going to be on my new, new episode. When Frank Gabingnell was younger, he went to a girl's house dressed as a police or with a paper badge and a toy gun lodged in his belt. And he was saying, he knocked on the door looking for for this. young lady, she wasn't home. The mom said, no, she's not home. She'll be back later. He returns to the house and he was arrested. I have a newspaper clipping of that. A paper badge and a toy gun, ladies and gentlemen, this is not some mastermind criminal. Frank Abagnale used to cash checks using his real name. Okay? So you're a smart guy, Matthew. Would you have ever used your real name for any of your crimes? No, because smart criminals wouldn't do

that. Right. I remember in the book, he accidentally cashed a check that he'd written his name and address on the back of. And then, which I was like, just when I heard what I was reading, I was like, that's the dumbest thing of it. Like, how would you not have checked? How would you not have known? But then, of course, then he calls back the next day. He realizes what he did. He calls the bank. He goes there. He retrieves the check. And, you know, sorry. No, I was going to say that. Yeah, he included that in the book. But in reality, we have no evidence whatsoever that he used any aliases. And I have images of his checks. Oh, by the way, I don't have the number right off the top of my head. But he didn't cash millions of dollars worth of bad checks. I mean, he cashed, let's see, like $120 here, $162 there. And there were only a total of like, I want to say like, less than 10 checks or something like that. If memory serves me correctly,

I can't remember off the top of my head. But it wasn't millions of dollars. It was hundreds of dollars with checks using his own name. Okay, this is not a mastermind criminal by any stretch of the imagination. But I am impressed that we're still talking about it years later. Yeah, well, I mean, look, the idea that you're, the idea that he took this you know this bogus you know con man fraud scheme and turned it into an entire speaking career and career in general that's impressive yeah that that part i'm more impressed by that than his what he's famous for right um the i was going to say the thing i from listening to one of your podcast was that apparently he had a brother that was very similar stole people's identities

the same was his brother which of course I didn't well in the book they do mention that he has a brother but right um in the movie they don't he's like an only child it seems like but yeah that's actually to me it's really fascinating that his brother was more of a con artist or maybe even a better con artist than than Frank Abigail himself is um this is a guy who before my podcast you know Alan Logan had realized that there was something weird about this guy's story,

but then when we started digging in, we were able to find Heather Abagnow, which is Frank Abagnow's niece. Her father was Frank's older brother, and she was curious about her dad. She wanted to learn more, and so we worked with her together to find out more information. And what we learned was that this guy baked his resume,

very George Santos-like, like the whole day was just like fake, got a job as a therapist, worked several jobs in the mental health for years, right? For years. And then they would find them out and he would get another job. And this guy died and got away with it, in my opinion. And Frank Abagnale, in a way, he's like living in the shadows of his older brother, you know, not quite as successful.

Right. I was going to say, I was talking to a friend of mine who's, you know, that does a credit, used to do credit card fraud. I actually wrote a book about him called Bent. And so we were talking, I was talking about this story. This was like a week ago when we first tried to, when we first reached out to you. And I'm talking to him and I was like, oh, my gosh, you know, this is so interesting. Like I've heard bits and pieces of.

of this story about the book coming out for, I've heard bits and pieces of it for the last year or so. And I said, so I said, I'm excited about talking to this guy. And he, and so we were talking and he was like, well, how did he, I don't understand, you know, how did he this, this many years later, how did they piece all this together? I said, well, here's what's messed up. I said, is that from my understanding, is that Abagnale,

just like you've already kind of said, already said that, you know, The problem with his story is that there are so many arrests, there are slight documents out there, and that his story is at odds with everything that's out there. So I was like, it's not like, and I give you an example, in my particular case, I have a, there was a, you know, I got the Freedom of Information Act, obviously, and I knew things that happened. So, you know, you start piecing it together, like, I don't know the exact, date. I remember it was a couple days or a few days after I left. Right. I remember, which by the way,

you have to admit, like the freedom of information. It's gold. It is. For instance, when I actually left at one point, Houston, and drove back to Charlotte, North Carolina. And on the way, because I was just in such a state of just everything had gone wrong, I'd been calling. I'd been caught a week or so earlier in a bank there were articles coming out constantly i was you know i was like listen you're in a bad spot i called home and i talked to a few people and a broker i used to talk to said listen you need to call the fbi i need to think about turning yourself in so i called the fbi agent spoke with her several times on the phone while i was driving and you know and then eventually that that conversation just went wrong like you know the fbi i doesn't

have the ability to negotiate for the U.S. Attorney's Office, you know, they can't make promises. And so I was getting these vague, you know, promises and very, very vague this. And then I got to a point where I realized she was just lying. And eventually those conversations ended. I chucked the phone. But after that, when I got back to Charlotte, I actually almost got caught in a Starbucks. The U.S. Marshals had gone to my old address, interviewed people at the, at the apartment complex

and I had picked up a car that I'd left and then I went to get a Starbucks coffee caddy corner to where the really just right around the corner from the apartment complex before I left. While I was there,

I was recognized by one of the apartment complex employees who had just been interviewed by the U.S. Marshals. They run back. Get the Marshals and on their way back by this point I've already gotten to my car and I'm about to drive off and the marshals are actually running

towards the back of my car as I take off. And the other Starbucks employee actually yells, he's right here, he's right here. And that's the only reason I even knew they were there.

I take off. Sounds very dramatic. But the truth is, you know, I'd already checked. I'm basically driving out into traffic already. I'm right,

you know, and I just happen to look in the mirror and see the guys. This guy's yelling. He's right here. And I take off. When I got the U.S., when I got the Freedom of Information Act,

though, that document, all it says is that they, they, They interviewed the, they interviewed the post, post apartment, you know, employees and that they put a bolo out on my tag number. They never mentioned that they saw me at the Starbucks. Like, I never got a report. I know what happened.

I was there. So I was talking to my buddy and I was like, so what's interesting, I'm like, so I could see. Abingale saying, well, wait a minute, this is what led up to that and this is the report. I said, because not all my reports have the entire situation. Now, there are some that are extremely detailed, like the phone calls with the FBI agent. The FBI agents going and talking to various people. Some of those are pages and pages long. And things like the U.S. Marshal's going to,

they actually went to Louisiana and were looking for me in Louisiana. You know, there's all these things that were, that 360, you know all the other things that are happening, which make the book that much better than I couldn't have told you had I not gotten that report. Yeah, because you only knew one part of it. Right. Everybody knows their part, but nobody knows the whole story, right?

The problem is, is that Abagnale, like there's nothing, backing up his version of the story. Like, there's just no real documents, and he's saying things that are completely contradictory to the documents that are out there. Like, hey, I was here at this time. No, you were in prison at this time. Yeah, and I mean, maybe it's, I mean, nobody could have predicted the internet, right? Yeah.

So it's like, you know, when he started the myth, the myth was really born when, And obviously back when to tell the truth, which was before the Carson show. And, you know, it's kind of like a high. You know, you get this like rush. It's like, oh, man, I told this BS story. And people believe me. And I sound like a frigging hero. And so then Johnny Carson, hey, come on, what a bigger stage than Johnny Carson.

So then you get on Johnny Carson. Johnny Carson totally buys the story. And then you got to keep doing it. I mean, and keep doing it. Yeah. And so at this point, when now. YouTube is out and Internet is out. All these freedom of information requests are out and these documents are painting a picture that's counted to your story. You would think most people

would be like, hey, you know what? I might have fudged things here or there. The reason why we're talking about this now is that he can't admit to that. He cannot bring himself to like own up to it. I think it would be really cool personally. If Frank Abbicknell was like, guess what, guys? I had you. I fooled Stephen Spielberg. I fooled the best of the best. All these journalists, quote-unquote, journalists. I was on 60 minutes and they totally bought my story. I duped you guys for 40 years. He built some of the nation's largest banks out of an estimated $55 million because $50 million wasn't enough. And $60 million seemed excessive. He is the most interesting man.

and the world. I don't typically commit crimes, but when I do, it's bank fraud. Stay greedy, my friends. Support the channel. Join Matthew Cox's Patreon. So I think part of that, I feel like this is just me, but, you know, so one of my co-defendants is a girl by the name of Rebecca Howe. And she went on the run with me.

Like, there were articles that called us, you know, the Bonnie and Clyde of bank fraud. Right. So she, you know, we, when I got out, she spoke. When we spoke, we were speaking to each other. We were texting each other through Instagram. I forget what they call that. But anyway, you know, we were texting. So we were going back and forth, just having a conversation. How are you doing? She'd gotten remarried. She had a baby or a little boy. It was just, you know, how her life had turned around. I was like, oh, that's great. We're talking. Well, while we're talking, I said, hey, you know what? what would be great, is if you came on the podcast. And she said, and say what? I said, because her story the whole time was that I was a Don Juan. I convinced her to fall in love with me, that I had asked her to help commit fraud, and she didn't really realize what she was doing, and that basically then I left her and she took the blame for,

or she was sentenced and never should have gone to jail or really, you know, that it was all my fault, that she was just a girl that was in love and really didn't know what was going on. And I said, well, you could come on a podcast and we could talk about like what really happened. And she said, are you, are you out of your mind? She said, I've been telling my version of our story since I got arrested. She said, do you think I'm now? Stop. Do you know how fast you were going?

I'm going to have to write you a ticket to my news. movie the naked gun Liam Nissan buy your tickets now and get a free chili dog chili dog not included the naked gun tickets on sale now August 1st I'm going to tell my mother and father

and my husband the truth she said that's never going to happen so yeah I know you're thinking it's a great story I do too but this guy's got a wife and kids yeah I am kids and so I can no no no exactly I think you are rare I mean what you're doing without yeah

owning up to your story, saying you've made mistakes, and actually, like, turning it around. I mean, you are, like, what Frank Abingnell wishes that he could be a reformed person. You've made something out of yourself after, you know, you have to, you've rebounded. This guy was a low-life kind of small-time criminal, you know, like robbing, you know, gas stations and stuff like that. Like, there was nothing exciting about his real story. So it is embarrassing to say, hey, guess what? I was really not this mastermind con artist. I was really just robbing, you know, this mom and dad from, you know, like stealing their checks.

I mean, yeah, I would be embarrassed too. Well, I think what's comical, I've said this before, you know, and look, you meet a lot of con men in prison, right? Like, you know, obviously. And some are better than others. Some are just low-time fraudsters that got caught for doing two or three. stupid things. And then there are other guys that went 10 years and made millions of dollars and are just extremely sophisticated. And so we would, you know, a lot of us would sit around and talk. And I'll tell you one thing. As their days got a, their release date got closer and

closer, I was the only person out of a group of, let's say 12 guys that I knew throughout the entire, that were, that I was really, really genuinely impressed by. Because they weren't low level guys that were they could have been drug dealers they could have been car thieves like they just happened about some checks or make some fake do some fake tax scam thing you know the the they that tax scam things like these not I'm not talking about those guys I'm talking about the guys that ran like a Ponzi scheme for 40 million dollars and those guys and these guys would be in their 30s or 40s and almost every one of them work thinking how do I get rid of stuff on the internet how do I hire um i think firms to bury it yeah um reputation dot com or how do i how could matt you've

legally changed someone's name how did you go about doing that because i legally one time this is horrible don't judge me okay um so like one time i i stole the guy's identity and i went and legally had his name changed and then got a credit card for a child in the new name so that i was able to get a driver's license and an ID from the DMV in the new name. So it was basically completely different. Right. But I was able to use a lot of his real, I was able to couple his information with new, new documents that I created. It's almost like you built like a like a tangent, like a separate timeline for this guy. Right. Only I did it all with his birth certificate. Right. Um, so anyway, you know, so I legally changed the thing. So I would have guys like how, what's that process? How did you,

How much did it cost? Who'd you go to? You know, it says $1,500 to an attorney. You know, so, you know, you need a good story. You need somebody that says they've known you for more than three years, which the person that actually signed the document that got a notarized document saying, I've known this person for more than three years, had known me for about a month. Like, it's not hard to, you meet somebody.

They think you're friends. Yeah, I'll sign that. But all of these guys were actively trying to figure out how to bury their past. And they were always like, what are you going to do? I was like, I'm going to lean into it. I said, I'm not going to hide the rest of my life. I hid for three years. I'm done.

I said, when somebody asks me, I'm never, there's never going to be an opportunity when it presents itself where I, at this point, I should probably say I was incarcerated for this. But I'm not going to say, oh, yeah, I was working here. I was doing that. I was out of the guy. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do it. And, and I mean, I literally got to the point where people would, where I would say, hey, you know, my name is Matt. Cox, you know, and I'm a con man. You know, I was indicted for this, a bunch of bank fraud related

frauds, and I'm 100% guilty of every one of them. Because I always say, look, there's two kinds of people in the world now for me. There are those people that are, that understand what I once did, and they're accepting of it, and they understand the person I am now, and there are those people that can go fuck themselves. Because the truth is, you know, the truth is, is that, that those are the only people that need to be in my life. I don't need anybody in my life that's disturbed, that hates me or dislikes me or, you know, and why not be open and honest about it?

Like, it would be a, like you said, it would be a great story if he came and said, look, I was born into this family. Here's who my father was. He was kind of a derelict. He raised two sons that both became con men and kind of write the story about these two con men brothers, even though they didn't necessarily work together.

You said they had a love-hate relationship. right yeah but it's interesting you have two con men brothers you know and one of them you're a con man father yeah right that's an interesting story but you know what i yeah and he could actually possibly sell that and make another movie i might have another movie yeah because actually it might be a better movie it's a Netflix series it's very good and i don't know why it hasn't been turned into a movie and he should he should ride that way you know but here's the thing the between you and Frank Abagnall is that would you describe to me and assuming that everything you just told me is true? You are somebody that is very valuable. So when you introduce yourself

as a con man, you are a reformed con man. That's what Frank Abagnall claims to be. If you watch his presentations, he's going to teach, he's going to show you all these slides about cybersecurity and identity fraud and all this stuff. But it's not, and he claims that he's, been sitting on these boards and he's been part of these companies that have developed anti-fraud, anti-check fraud technology. I don't know if that's true or not. I can't prove it. But the point is that you, as someone who has committed all these crimes and has turned,

you know, a new page over and your life is completely different, you actually have something valuable to tell the cyber fraud community. You know, like I can see you getting a speech. gig and teaching fraud investigators what you did and how to protect yourself from it, how their customer, you know, like, you could actually teach them something. He's using second, third hand information to build his PowerPoint slides. Right. I was going to say, I actually, within the last month, I've met with the Hillsborough, about 40,

I don't know if it's maybe 30, between 30 and 40, it's probably close to 40, about 40 financial crime detectives with the Hillsborough County Sheriff's Department. I've gone there twice and given speeches that were about an hour. I've met with banking associations. I'm supposed to talk at the international, it's like the international association. It's got a long name. International Association of Economic Crime, something. There's over a thousand people that are going to there. I do cyber. I do cyber conventions. So I mean, I'm working on doing that. The problem with that is, is like, I haven't got a booking agent. I need to get a booking agent.

That's difficult. Oh, yeah, yeah. And that's, you know, that's takes, it's a little bit of luck and a little bit of hard work, you know. But the point is that I would get a hell of a lot more value out of listening to you than to listening to a guy that was walking around with a paper badge and a toy gun writing badge checks using his real night. You know what I mean? Like you actually pulled, pulled it off. And I can answer those questions because these, these detectives, like they. ask like, how did you do this? How did you get this? How did you? And I actually can,

I can answer it because I did order the security paper. I did, you know, like I, for instance, getting a seal, getting a seal for a birth certificate. So, you know, they have the raised seal, right? Like, you can't go to anybody and order a state or a county sale. It's a government seal. So you can't say, hey, I want a seal that says the state of Florida or, no, I'm sorry, the Department of Vital Statistics, Hillsborough County. I had to call five or six places. None of them would do it. They said that's a state seal. We can do it. So I eventually had to, I changed it to Office of Virtual Records. And then I put Florida Corporation or something. I then wore the sill down by taking two grit sandpaper and just crunching it over and, you know, sealing it over and over to wear the wax seal down. Then when I did it, you could see bits and pieces of it, but you couldn't really read it, but you could feel that it was raised.

And that's how I used that. So when I explained that to them, they were all like, oh, I was like, nobody, nobody ever questioned it. Like, I explained going to the DMV and getting them to give me a driver's license and how I ordered, you know, a passport and the difficulty of this and how many times I was stopped and what for and how it was a learning process. Yeah. Abagnale can't explain that because he didn't go through that process. Well, I mean, he's famous for the float, the check float, right? Yeah. And I do think.

Brilliant in the book the way he explained it. It's pretty brilliant. No, no, no. he that is really cool that's a very ingenious idea and and and he may have used that technique you know that's what i'm saying heard it from somebody in prison maybe but the point is that there are grains of truth within his story and he did cash bad checks and you know he did have a pilot's uniform he did walk around he did play that up he said he actually did get some free flight some Mm-hmm. Some jump-seep flights, you know, the way that works is if he was posing as a Pan Am, he would go on Eastern, you know, like there's nowhere to really check. So yeah, there are people that say, yeah, he did take flights. Yeah, it is gutsy. It's kind of a cool story. I mean, but why not just tell that story, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Well, the point is that I just think that it's, who said that the truth, you know,

know, or like, yeah, why let the truth, yeah, ruin a good story? Or something like that. Or like, you know, I forget, yeah, I forget the quote. But the point is that his false narrative is you can stop anybody in the street and they'll tell you about his fake life story. But his true life story, I mean, your audience is learning about it now. Maybe they heard it before or whatever. But it's not well known.

And he keeps getting booked by these companies. And they're expecting him to talk about the story that we all know him for. When I saw him speak, he came out on stage with the John Williams theme of Catch Maybe You Can, which is so iconic. It's like his superhero music. And he doesn't talk about his past. That's like, I always say it's like going to see the Rolling Stones and they don't sing satisfaction or something like.

You're expecting. They're singing all their new, yeah, some new album. Yeah, they're singing all the new songs. Yeah, exactly. That's what you get with Frank Abagnow. He does have very useful cybersecurity content in his presentation, but I would much more rather listen to a professional in the FBI, Secret Service, or someone like yourself who has managed to work around the system.

That's more valuable to me than just some second, thirdhand information, you know? Yeah. So what, so when are, when are you, well, first, how does the podcast do that you've been, how long has it been going on? Yeah, well, it was an eight-part series. It's, I think it ended like right at the end of summer and I've moved on to other topics. But this new episode that I'm coming out with, it's going to be out in like two weeks, I think. It's out now for my Patreon listeners. But yeah, the series did well.

it was well received it's been written about but not well enough you know what's really weird about this thing is that you and I would love to see this documentary on Netflix right like this this is a no this is a no brainer no one wants to touch it we went to the new york times and they're like yeah old news we went to production companies and they all sound really excited at first and then we never hear back from them it's almost like they're scared of hollywood Steven Spielberg, I don't know what the deal is, but this is a, this is a documentary in a can. There's so many documents like we talked about, but we pictures, photos, we have videos of Abagnall during this time period. It's, I would love to watch this one day, but so far

no one, no one's, no one's taking the bait. Well, so, you know, I mean, like, because I've written, I've written about over 20 true crime like synopsies. So they're like 12,000 between, let's say, eight to 15,000 words. And I've written about eight books. I had a lot of time on my hands. So what I've noticed, what I've noticed from working with different production companies, getting them turned into documentaries, which, listen, I've been doing this for a couple years now, and I just now am having them pitched to Netflix and Hulu and FX and all of those

companies, some of them. And some of them I've been working on for over two years and like what now being pitched. And some I started working on six months ago and they're being pitched. Yeah, it's like a fishing expedition. Yeah. But one of the big things is, I notice is, you know, they want people to participate. Like, who are we going to be able to interview? What assets do we have? Like, Abagnale's not going to be interviewed. Oh, but we have so much video of him telling his story. I mean, too much video of him telling his story. And they've got you?

We got, no, forget. Just remove me and Alan from this, right? You have the people who he's screwed over, all his victims that are willing to talk. You have the lady who got him the Tonight Show booking. She didn't know it at the time, but she created a monster. If it wasn't for her, you know, we wouldn't be talking today. We have video of Abagnale in that time period walking around. You can see it on my YouTube channel.

I have video of him like writing checks, video of him driving around town. I mean, this is a lot of photos galore. I mean, there's enough, trust me, that they could run wild with this thing if they wanted to. And, you know, it is getting attention. You know, like the New York Post, Abby Elling wrote an article about the true story of Frank Abingnell. This is what I love about the story is that this is not my story. This is not Alan's story.

There were reporters, you know, back in the day that started this thing and professors who questioned him and then Alan took it and then I took it and I passed it on to Abby Elling and now you're telling it. It's like we're all passing the torch, you know, telling the truth. I mean, this is an exercise. on correcting history. That's all we're doing here. It's like you've been sold a bag of goods.

Now we're telling you what really happened just for the record, you know. Have you tried to get it into, you know, something like Rolling Stone or, you know, any fair, anything like that? I've contacted a few, you know, people in the press, like in those publications. And then also, like, some publicists.

And no luck, man. I mean, you know, just Abby Elling stuck with the story in the New York Post. I thought that was pretty big. But the reception, you know, people don't care about the story. They're like, eh, it was a good story. It was a good movie, you know? You know, because I can kind of, like, it's upsetting. It's like you're taking one of my top ten favorite movies and you're saying.

It is upsetting. And I think it upsets people and people don't want to be upset. I want to believe that. Exactly. I tell people, it's like telling people, Santa Claus does it. exists. Right. It's like a nine-year-old, hey, listen, Santa doesn't really exist. He's kind of like, you know, go fuck yourself, man. You know, that I, that was my reaction, too. When I first learned about this stuff, I couldn't believe, I refused to believe it until I started saying the documents

myself, yeah. Yeah. Because it is, it, it's such a good movie, you know? You know, I wrote a story about, you might remember this. I'm not sure. So in 2008 during the financial crisis, so just January of 2009, there was a guy that had been, his office had been raided. He was a financial advisor. His office had been raided and he was about to be arrested and he also was a private pilot. So he took his plane up and called in a fake distress signal. The name is Marcus Schrenker and said, you know, I've hit turbulence. My windshield is spider cracking. And then it then suddenly comes back and he says the windshield is imploded, I'm bleeding. Remember, he said, I'm bleeding profusely.

And then, of course, the tower is screaming, get down, get down, you know, and then he goes, he goes offline, and he ends up jumping out of the plane, and it runs out of fuel, and it lands a couple miles short of the Gulf of Mexico. his plan was to call in the distress signal have it go out over the Gulf but because he opened up the doors the drag burned off too much gas and it ran out just shy

he runs three of course when they recover the plane the wings are ripped off the tails ripped off everything's ripped off but the windshield's in perfect condition they know immediately he's this is all bullshit he's on the right they track him

down three days later at a K-O-A camp ground and he gets arrested. His name was Marcus Schroenker. So I wrote his story when I was incarcerated. And he was trying to tell me that his wife had done everything. He was trying to blame everything on his wife. He was about to get arrested. He was about to leave prison. And so as I said, okay, well, that's a great story because that hasn't been told. Like he was on CNN. He's been on every few pudgeon Marcus Schrenker. He's everywhere. I mean, to this day, it's page after page. So, and everybody thought there'd be a book or a movie, but he was impossible to deal with

because he's a pathological liar. And you don't really realize that until you start to have to work with him. And so as the Freedom of Information Act came in, I start realizing that everything he's saying is a lie. And so, and then I have to confront him with it. And so we're battling back and forth where he's lying and not like, no, but I have this and this, and he'd get mad and he'd leave. And then two days later, he'd say, when are we going to keep working?

and so the book is really part of the book is that process yeah and he um so i was going to say that i wonder if you i'm just wondering like if there's a pathology with abing nail that there were times when i would present so shrinker would say like i've never been sued my company's never been sued i've never been sued then i would show him the document showing he had been sued. And he literally would go, he would say, well, oh, oh, first it was always like, where did you get these? I tell them. And then he'd say, and I'd say they sew that you were sued. He'd go, oh, I see where you're confused. Of course I was sued. Matt, I owned a large wealth management company. We were sued all the time.

It'd be crazy if I wasn't sued. And then I'd go, well, that's great. Then what happened with this one? And he would start talking. He would literally, but I wouldn't confront. him right about the lie that hey 30 seconds ago you were telling you've never been sued and your company never been sued now you're saying obviously you were sued so you could just the he you know you know they say pathological liars know or they believe their lies like he doesn't believe he knows these lying oh who abick now no no you're this guy that you're talking about i'm wondering i i that's a very good question and i mean you and i probably talked to real pathological liars, people that cannot control themselves.

You know, like, they can't help it, you know. They're lying about, I don't think. A shrinker would lie about things that literally he would lie about things that it was ridiculous to tell this lie. There's no benefit and it's easily, it's easily rebuffed. It's easy for me to find out and very quickly find out that that's a blatant lie. Right. Yet he would do it anyway.

I don't think that's the case with Abignow. I mean, I don't know. Maybe Alan Logan or anybody else would disagree. with me, but Frank Abingnell, and I don't know, I don't know him personally, but he doesn't strike me as a kind of guy that would just start making stuff up on the fly. His lies are very well architected and engineered. They're very rehearsed, okay? He's been telling the same story for decades. And so if you pull up a clip on YouTube from the Johnny Carson show and you pull up a clip from the 80s, it's almost word for word the same lie. So he's not like making up

You know, because a lot of liars are just like making up stuff on the fly and they're spinning up so many lies that you can't, no, these are the same lies. The only difference is that now, you know, he either shortens the story or leaves parts out. He's been confronted about like the toilet escape, a bunch of engineers, aeronautical engineers realize that that's physically impossible. So like now he's like, oh, no, I didn't really escape from the airplane toilet. was, you know, that was made up for the movie. But if you, if you look, there was audio of him saying that. Telling the story. Prior to the movie. But, you know, here's the difference.

This is why I don't think that he's a pathological liar is that because before he got married and before he met Stan Redding, he, these lies didn't exist. It's almost like if somebody helped him create this work of fiction. And he's just stuck to it, right? He's just stuck to it for all these years. I think he knows what he's doing. I think he's very well aware of what's true and what's not, because he does not deviate much. Well, he's made a great run of it. Yeah, yeah. He has made a great career. And, and, you know, I think he's getting older now, and he's still doing these speeches and stuff like that, but he's slowing down. You can tell his schedule, he's still getting booked, but he's not as aggressive going out there every week, you know, type of thing. And

he's he's kind of slowing down so okay yeah um yeah well i i mean i know you know uh there's a i know you got to go um yeah this is awesome i love talking about this yeah listen i could talk for another you know i i want to by the way can i have you on my show yeah that would be great i cannot wait you know what i was thinking would be hilarious um i i i see say, but not that you had the time to do this, but, you know, I was like, listen, it'd be great to send you my book. You know, I'll send you my book anyway. Yeah. I'm not if you have the, I don't know if you have the time. Oh, I read, I read the books. Yeah. Before I interview people, yeah, definitely. Um, you know, but which luckily I, luckily I remember getting the freedom of

information act like my, my, thank God I did it because the dates in my mind were off. Right. And so I was able to really. You're not like keeping a journal as you're doing it. Yeah, you know, where I was like, God, I thought that happened. like two weeks later and it was six months later. Right, right. Yeah. But I have dates and I have all kinds of stuff and I thought, boy, it'd be great to have this guy fact check me. Oh, that'd be great. Yeah. I'd love the challenge. Yeah.

So I have, I can send you, I can, if you send me your address, I'll mail you a copy of the book. Yep. And, yeah, I would love to be on your, on the podcast. Yeah, let's make it happen, man, because you have a really interesting story on, on identity fraud that I've never heard that how sophisticated you that you know it always sounds it's a learning process you know like I jumped right to it but oh no yeah you it's trial and error right yeah oh yeah there's no there's no there's no you know dark community that I could go to and they'd help but I think that there's a lot that people can learn from hearing that story I mean the

first first first you know like get a credit freeze get this you know get that you know like there's from hearing a story like yours you could kind of arm yourself and protect yourself you know yeah that's yeah and that's that's one of the things i i do stuff for home title lock and i i uh you know consult with people and uh with uh security companies and that sort of thing but i i know you have to go bro i'll just keep talking you just have to shut it you just have to shut me off yeah yeah yeah no i i love it this was great this was an awesome conversation man once again uh thanks to Javier for for doing the for letting me interview them also I'm going to put all of the links to his podcasts in the description box and there may be some other links there I'll get I'll get some

some links from from Javier if you like the video do me a favor hit the subscribe button hit the bell so you get notified of videos like this also do me a favor leave a comment like the video and share it with as many friends and family as you can really appreciate you guys watching I have Patreon, and also I've written a bunch of books, so check out my trailers. Using forgeries and bogus identities, Matthew B. Cox, one of the most ingenious conmen in history, built America's biggest banks out of millions. Despite numerous encounters with bank security, state, and federal authorities, Cox narrowly, and quite luckily, avoided capture for years. Eventually, he taught.

the U.S. Secret Service's Most Wanted list, and led the U.S. Marshals, FBI, and Secret Service on a three-year chase, while jet-setting around the world with his attractive female accomplices. Cox has been declared one of the most prolific mortgage fraud con artists of all time by CNBC's American Greene. Bloomberg Business Week called him the mortgage industry's worst nightmare, while Dateline NBC described Cox as a gifted forger and silver-tonged liar. Playboy magazine proclaimed his scam was real estate fraud, and he was the best. Shark in the housing pool is Cox's exhilarating first-person account of his stranger-than-fiction story. Available now on Amazon and Audible.

Bent is the story of John J. Boziak's phenomenal life of crime. Inked from head to toe, with an addiction to strippers and fast Cadillacs, Boziac was not your typical computer geek. He was, however, one of the most cunning scammers, counterfeiters, identity thieves, and escape artists alive, and a major thorn in the side of the U.S. Secret Service as they fought a war on cybercrime. With a savant-like ability to circumvent banking security

and stay one step ahead of law enforcement, Bozziak made millions of dollars in the international cyberunder world with the help of the Chinese and the Russians. Then, leaving nothing but a John Doe warrant and a cleaned-out bank account in his wake, he vanished. Boziak's stranger-than-fiction tale of ingenious scams and impossible escapes, of brazen run-ins with the law and secret desire to straighten out and settle down, makes his story a true crime con game that will keep you guessing. Bent. How a homeless teen became one of the cybercrime industry's most prolific counterfeiters. Available now on Amazon and Audible. Buryed by the U.S. government and ignored by the

national media, this is the story they don't want you to know. When Frank Amadeo met with President George W. Bush at the White House to discuss NATO operations in Afghanistan, no one knew that he'd already embezzled nearly $200 million from the federal government. Money he intended to use to bankroll his plan to take over the world. From Amadeo's global hedger, he's global hedge of, he's quarters in the shadow of Florida's Disney World with a nearly inexhaustible supply of the internal revenue services funds. Amadeo acquired multiple businesses amassing a mega conglomerate. Driven by his delusions of world conquest, he negotiated the purchase of a squadron of American fighter jets and the controlling interest in a former Soviet ICBM factory. He began working to build the largest

private militia on the planet, over one million African strong. Simultaneously, Amadeo hired an international black ops force to orchestrate a coup in the Congo while plotting to take over several small Eastern European countries. The most disturbing part of it all is, had the U.S. government not thwarted his plans, he might have just pulled it off. It's insanity. The bizarre, true story of a bipolar megalomaniac's insane plan for total world domination. Available now on Amazon and Audubour.

Pierre Rossini, in the 1990s, was a 20-something-year-old Los Angeles-based drug trafficker of ecstasy and ice. He and his associates drove luxury European supercars, lived in Beverly Hills penthouses, and dated Playboy models while dodging federal indictments. Then, two FBI officers with the organized crime drug enforcement task force entered the picture. Dirty agents willing to fix cases and identify. informants. Suddenly, two of Racini's associates, confidential informants working with federal law enforcement, were murdered. Everyone pointed to Rossini. As his co-defendants prepared for trial, U.S. Attorney Robert Moore sat down to debrief Racine at Leavenworth Penitentiary, and another story emerged.

A tale of FBI corruption and complicity in murder. You see, Pierre Rossini knew something that no one else knew. The truth. And Robert Miller and the federal government have been covering it up to this very day. Devil Exposed. A twisted tale of drug trafficking, corruption, and murder in the city of angels. Available on Amazon and Audible. Bailout is a psychological true crime thriller that pits a narcissistic con man against an egotistical, pathological liar.

Marcus Schrenker, the money manager who attempted to face. his own death during the 2008 financial crisis is about to be released from prison and he's ready to talk. He's ready to tell you the story no one's heard. Shrinker sits down with true crime writer Matthew B. Cox, a fellow inmate serving time for bank fraud. Shinker lays out the details, the disgruntled clients who persecuted him for unanticipated market losses, the affair that ruined his marriage, and the treachery of his scorned wife, the woman who framed him for security fraud, leaving him no choice but to make a bogus distress call and plunge from his multi-million dollar private aircraft in the dead of night. The $11.1 million in life insurance. The missing

$1.5 million in gold. The fact is, Shrinker wants you to think he's innocent. The problem is Cox knows Shrinker's a pathological liar and his stories of fabrication. As Cox subtly coaxes, cajoles, and yes, Khan's Shrinker into revealing his deceptions, his stranger than life of lies slowly unravels. This is the story Shrinker didn't want you to know. Bailout, the life and lies of Marcus Shrinker, available now on Barnes & Noble, Etsy, and Audible. Matthew B. Cox is a conman,

incarcerated in the Federal Bureau of Prisons for a variety of bank fraud-related scams. Despite not having a drug problem, Cox inexplicably ends up in the prison's Residential Drug Abuse Program, known as Ardap, a drug program in name only. Ardap is an invasive behavior modification therapy, specifically designed to correct the cognitive thinking errors associated with criminal behavior. The program is a non-fiction dark comedy, which chronicles Cox's side-splitting journey.

This first-person account is a fascinating glimpse at the survivor-like atmosphere inside of the government-sponsored rehabilitation unit. While navigating the treachery of his backstabbing peers, Cox simultaneously manipulates prison policies and the bumbling staff every step of the way. The program. How a Conman survived the Federal Bureau of Prisons cult of Ardap. Available now on Amazon and Audible.

If you saw anything you like, links to all the books are in the description box. Made a fortune out of a fake story.