Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - Gene Borrello Breaks Silence on Cooperating With the Feds | Mob Soldier Turned Witness

Starting point is 00:00:00 In 2024, a woman walked into a boutique to buy a designer handbag. The price, $3,000. She bought it. The next day, the fashion house behind that bag was all over the news and not for positive reasons. She had to ask herself, did I just pay a premium for this label? How much is this bag actually worth? We wanted to know too, so join Chino, Melissa, and me as we talk with fashion industry expert K. Harris on the We-Ferner, It You're a Welcome podcast. Together, we'll call out things the fashion industry does right, and we'll propose some alterations too. That's what we do on this show. We fix things.

Starting point is 00:00:41 Companies in crisis, cultural tension points, if it needs fixing, we're on it. If you like this episode, you'll like them all. Catch this and other episodes of We Fixed It Your Welcome on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Now, what you're telling on, who you're telling on. If you're telling the right people, you're walking out. For operation, it was created for mafia. We vow to not ever do this. Our code, I have it on my arm.

Starting point is 00:01:10 I'm a sellout. But I walked out the door. I was facing 100 years. You know, you get the rat thing, snitch, rat, all that stuff. Right. So, and this is what I get in the comments all the time, which is basically what they say is, you know, oh, you just fucking gave somebody up and you walked right out of fucking jail or, oh, it's, you know, like you don't. they act like you get arrested for fucking stealing $10 million

Starting point is 00:01:37 and you go, oh, hey, I know a guy who's got a fucking slab. And then they go look and they go and knock on his door and they arrest him. They let you out of fucking jail. I don't know. No, especially if you have violence. You know what I mean? Right. So like I said, I'll break down the cooperation agreement for New York in that state is the best.

Starting point is 00:01:57 So you can't really compare it to other states. Like if you, like when I was in the units in the woods, units, right? You're with the most high-profile's people in the country. You're with people from all over every state. I was with guys from Alaska, bikers from Alaska. Literally. One guy's name was Long Walker. I was dying laughing. Anyway, so you're with people all over the country, and they're all got agreements. And if you sit with a table of 10 of us, all from different states, and then New York, you will see the difference. Yeah. So let's say, for instance, I had a friend named Jay-Z. I had a friend named Jay-Z.

Starting point is 00:02:31 He was a head Latin king out of Chicago, Illinois. They told him, if you have a murder, there's nothing other 20 years, no matter if you tell on God. You're telling Jesus Christ, put him in prison, you're getting 20 years. That's your minimum. And then we could work with you after that

Starting point is 00:02:45 on Rule 35s if we could use you in other cases. Right. You understand? But your minimum is 20 years, so do not expect anything under 20. Right. You understand? That's Chicago.

Starting point is 00:02:55 Okay? Virginia. Second Circuit, there's no point of cooperating. Okay, there's almost no point of cooperating. Oh, because they get you almost nothing. It is so horrible. When I tell you, I believe it's a second circuit, I believe Virginia is the second circuit, I'm almost positive.

Starting point is 00:03:12 When I tell you, Matt, they are cooperating for 40 years, 35 years with murders, that's what they're getting. They are cooperating and telling everything they have and getting 30 years. Coming back, look like they just lost their dog. Like, just look, they just got 30 years. Then you have New York, seven, eight murders, ten murders, twelve murders, my friends, big Dino, little Dino, Joey Cave, these guys are serial killers, mafia hitmen, eight years, ten years. They'll give you a guideline of, so you'll cop out, I'll tell you, now New York will get to the greatest, we'll get to the best cooperation there is. So in New York, federal New York, you'll go in front of a judge, you'll plea out to all your top charges.

Starting point is 00:03:54 They don't tell you what you're going to get, you're not going to get. You're going to cop out to your top charges. So if you have murder, you're playing out to all six of your murders and all the top charges. And you'll cop out to life plus life plus life plus life plus 60. That's your cop out. So I've seen guys cop out the six lives plus 70 years. And then when you have the 5K agreement, 5K agreement, and you told on some people in New York, these big guys or whatever names you're cooperating against,

Starting point is 00:04:23 you go from the judge, and with the 5K agreement, your minimum mandatory is no more. So if you have six life sentences, now becomes zero to life. So the judge can give you one day, zero, to natural life in prison. That's his range now. Now, if you don't have the 5K,

Starting point is 00:04:42 you're minimum mandatory's life, obviously. So with the 5K letter, and I had friends, Sammy Kavanaugh, 19 murders, five years. Joey Cave's, seven murders, eight years. Big Dino, 11 murders, 10 years. Okay, I'll keep naming them. In New York, this is.

Starting point is 00:05:01 15 murders, 8 murders, 6 murders. They work with anything. And I'm going to tell you why they do these deals. Now, I'm not saying New York is the big gang city, but it technically is. All the high-profile guys, a lot of big timers come out of New York, especially organized crime. Cooperation came from mafia. It was created for mafia. Right.

Starting point is 00:05:18 They had no way to put these guys. They were cooperating. They were scared for their lives, you know, so they made these deals. so scrumptious because at one time, mafia ruled the country. So now, okay, how are we going to get these guys to cooperate? We got to make it, you know, worth it for them. Right.

Starting point is 00:05:35 Sammy Gavano. That paved the way for everybody. They says, oh my God, this guy got five years for killing 19 people. He was the head of an organization. They basically, when you sit with prosecutors and you sit with the agents, they tell you, we have to make it worth your wild. We can't tell you what you're going to get, But nine out of ten times, you're going to get a really good deal.

Starting point is 00:05:57 So when you go in front of a judge and you cooperate against John Gotti's or these Vinnie and Saras in my case, these big time served. I walked out the door right off the courtroom. I did six years, but I walked out the door. I was facing 100 years. Well, so why did you do six years? Because it was that long while these guys are fighting their cases. No, because you have violence. They want some time out of you.

Starting point is 00:06:19 So when you have violence, you have so much crime. And now I remember, I had three different conspiracies. I'm a violent predicate persistent. I have multiple felonies already. And I'm going to front and I'm admitting to a thousand violent crimes. All right. Think about that. You know, you got to get some time out of me, something.

Starting point is 00:06:36 It's not like, now if I had like a case like yours and I'm cooperating against the people I did, I probably wouldn't do. I probably would literally be out on bail the whole time. Right. I would be on bail the whole time. With no violence in New York and you're cooperating against big people, you won't even be in jail. My cousin, Anthony, you need to do a day. only six months before he, only reason why he did six months

Starting point is 00:06:54 because he didn't cooperate yet. He waited to get bailed. When he got bailed down on $2 million, he never did another day in jail. He got time served, not one day. Right. Think about that. And he had murder.

Starting point is 00:07:04 He killed his own brother in law. But at the end of the day, he was older. He testified on so many trials, and the judge didn't even give him one day. He let him walk out the door. That's New York cooperation. You understand?

Starting point is 00:07:16 Because why? Organized crime. They ruled the country at one point. They get the best. deals, New York, East and Southern District, they're going to let you out. If you're cooperating against these big gang members, these people, no matter how many people you killed, how many people you shot, you're going to have a second chance at life. Right. You understand? But I've seen deals get ripped up, people lying, leaving out crimes. These idiots don't want to admit everything. I

Starting point is 00:07:38 want to tell on this guy. And then they'll cooperate for no reason. But then I still seen it still decent time. Yeah. It's still not that bad. Oh, I know guys that have the same thing where they had cooperation. And then, you know, a week before they're sentencing, they find out that the guy lied about this, or he called up a witness and made a veiled threat. And then they get in front of the judge. And because he made one phone call and made a veiled threat,

Starting point is 00:08:01 they took away his cooperation. And he ends up, instead of going from, you know, let's say 10 years to five years, he's going to now he's going to do the whole 10. Now, that's not a lot. But still, for a phone call where he's like, okay, well, you got something coming to you. And that's all the guy said. Yeah. Took five years.

Starting point is 00:08:15 That's other states. You know, like I said, New York, I've seen guys' deals get ripped up. No, that was Florida. Well, that's the worst. Yeah. It's one of the worst cooperation states there is. Yeah. To be honest with you.

Starting point is 00:08:24 Florida, Texas, Virginia, Illinois, Chicago, all of those areas. It's just horrible. Virginia's the number one worst cooperation agreements there is. I swear to God, they would come back with 30 years telling everybody. That was, they would come back with 30 years. I wonder what California is. Is that high up? Yeah, California's bad, but not as bad.

Starting point is 00:08:41 Florida is horrible, too. Florida will hang you. Florida want to, Florida, wanted my head on a stick. I had a lot of armed robberies on jury stores in Florida. And the prosecutors from New York gave them the evidence to lock me up in Florida. So when I cooperated two years in, they didn't want to help me. They're like, no, we're frying this kid.

Starting point is 00:09:02 The prosecutors goes, hold on, Nicole Adjateri, who's the attorney general of fucking Eastern District right now. That was my prosecutor. Right. She's huge. She's fucking, this girl's brutal, by the way. Friendly when you're with her, when you're not, she's brutal. She told Florida, okay.

Starting point is 00:09:15 So you're not going to drop the charges. We gave you the evidence. Okay, well, he did it for organized crime, take care, and pulled the whole case from them. They were furious. They wanted to give me 20 years out there because I was sticking up jewelry stores, tying them up in the jewelry store.

Starting point is 00:09:28 So they wanted... Not good. No. They wanted... I mean, I was taking the whole store. Right. You know what I'm saying? We were taking the store,

Starting point is 00:09:35 you know, tying them up and taking the store. So I said, well, they had me on wiretaps. That's Florida never had no evidence against me. My cousin was wearing a wire. So Florida was able to indict me off my cousin's wiretaps. So Nicole wanted me to cooperate. So she's throwing everything at me. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:09:51 When I sat down and cooperated, says, hey, listen, I'm going to be honest you. Florida's looking to hang me. If you're not going to get rid of Florida, there's no point of me doing this. She goes, I'm trying. They're being hard-asses. They don't want to drop the charges. Yeah, I'd rather do my time in the Fed. I'd rather just take my time.

Starting point is 00:10:06 They're going to railroad me. So it's PBL out there, punishable by life. If you both trial in Florida on armed robbery, they give you natural life they want. You know that, right? It's called punishable by life. So if you blow trial to a robbery in one with a gun, it holds natural life in prison. I don't know if you know that. It's called PBL, yeah.

Starting point is 00:10:22 So I was at a 20 guideline with them. So if I blow trial, I get natural life. Right. So I'm telling him, if you don't get Florida out of there, they're trying to hang me. Nicole Argettieri goes, okay, you don't want to drop the case? Well, he's organized crime, and they pulled the whole case from them. Right. They literally pulled it.

Starting point is 00:10:41 Didn't exist them while. I got sentenced to that in New York. that's how much she looked out for me. Other than that, I was fucked. Florida was looking to bang me over the head. They didn't go fuck if I told on fucking kingpins. They don't care. They wanted my head on a stick.

Starting point is 00:10:54 I went to this state. I was on wiretap saying I'm going to tear the state to pieces. I'm on wiretap saying that. I'm like, I'm going to tear the state. I said, I'm going to tear the state to pieces. And they were really after me. That was Boca Raton. So, okay, so let's go back.

Starting point is 00:11:09 Yeah. My question is this. Yeah. You were grabbed, you're locked up. You got multiple cases. against you. Yeah. You don't say anything for a couple of years.

Starting point is 00:11:17 Yeah. At some point, at some point, how does that like process? Like, you're sitting in your cell. The CEO comes up or do they call you? Is it open bay? No, CO comes. Knocks in the door and says, hey, you're going to medical and then you walk it. Visit.

Starting point is 00:11:29 I knew it was fake. But you know why I knew the whole thing was fake? Because a captain came to see me. I'm like, the fuck you doing here for a visit. You're a captain. You don't even come and see you, mate. And I looked at a, because in Raggers Island cells, there's no windows. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:11:42 So it's just closed. the door's closed, sometimes the key cells, but there's no window on the thing. You can talk out, you know how they have glass usually on your cell? Yeah, yeah. There's no.

Starting point is 00:11:50 There's no glass on it. It's just open. Right. You get what I'm saying? It's just a square thing. So I'm talking, I'm looking at it. I go, heads.

Starting point is 00:11:56 She's like, right? I knew it. You know what I'm saying? I knew already. I got no visit. It's Tuesday. There's no such thing as a visit.

Starting point is 00:12:02 And my brain, I'm like, yo, you're going to get these people, they get some shit in this fucking tier right now. I'm with all guys that are real serious dudes.

Starting point is 00:12:09 Like, I'm in a gang fucking unit tier, leaders. They all love me in there. Everyone's facing life. And I'm like... You're not doing me in favor. You're not helping out. You're not like, Gino. Everyone calls me...

Starting point is 00:12:20 Wherever. Anytime I was in prison, my nickname is Gino. Always Gino. Gino, where you go? And I'm like, I don't know. They call me down. I'm ready in my brain. I'm like, let me hear what these fuck's got to say.

Starting point is 00:12:30 I know I've told you this story before, and that's how they got me. They brought me down. And Rob and Adam, who are very famous agents. They were on the front page of the paper with Vinnie a... Sarah, bringing them in for the Latanza case. They work, their brano crime family assigned agents.

Starting point is 00:12:43 So they know more about your family than you do. Right. So you can't lie at them. You know, it's like me talking to you about your stocks. You know if I'm bullshitting or not. You know what I'm saying? So they're looking at me like, they told me, listen, you are indicted by the government. We will be coming to lock you up.

Starting point is 00:12:57 You will be spending the most of the remaining life in prison. This is the last time I'm coming to see you. You're done. Like, you're fuck. We got Florida. They said, you know you're done. I was like, okay. And I took the paper.

Starting point is 00:13:06 That was it. So what happens? So after that, you go back to yourself. So I explained to them. I says, bro, I'm in the worst county in America. I says, if they even get a fucking idea that I'm doing this, I'm carved up. They're going to stab me off the block. I says, you have to get me out of here.

Starting point is 00:13:26 I says, I'm in the worst house in the jail. Right. They all love me. I'm known to the building. I was already known for fighting and stab in Latin Kings. I had a reputation already. I said, you have to get me out of here. because if they even have an, it's going to hit gangland.

Starting point is 00:13:40 I was scared he was going to hit gangland because shit leaks. So if you don't get me out of here, if I cooperate and it hits gangline, it's going to be all over the street, which hit gangline next day, bro, if I got out of there. That's how fast it went there. So when I told them, they said, okay, we're going to get you out of here. They put me, they called for me and says, Barrello, medical. They called me down for medical, and then I never came back. Right.

Starting point is 00:13:59 I told them, oh, I don't know what's going on. I went down to medical, and I was gone. They put me in Somerset County, a regular county prison under a fake name. Okay. And wait it for me to get into the Widsack show because you got to take a lot of tech attached, you got to do all the bullshit to get in there. What is that? I don't, see, that's the whole thing.

Starting point is 00:14:14 I don't know what any of that is. Oh, when you go into the Widsack units, right? You can't just go in. You have to be approved by everybody. And it takes like a year. Okay. You have to wait to get in there. So what?

Starting point is 00:14:26 Because you got to understand something. There could be other, there's only six units. Yeah, I was going to say, everybody always thinks that, oh, you know, you can say, they'll put you in witness protection. Like, it's a big deal to get you in there. It's not like they're doing 2,000 of these guys a year. I think the whole program has ever taken. People beg to get in there.

Starting point is 00:14:42 I was an automatic shoeing because I'm tested offing against organized crime, so we're automatic. Like there's no if and buts about it. Mafia, it's created for organized crime. I heard the number was, and I heard this a few years ago, they said the total number of people that have ever been brought into the program is around between 1,500 to 1,500. Like, that's not a lot of people for 30, 40 fucking years in the program. In the prison system, you mean? No, well, I don't, outside. You think there's more outside?

Starting point is 00:15:09 Yeah, 100%. I know that. But in the prison system, remember, the jail is only six units and it's not a big unit. So it only holds 80 people. Okay. You get what I'm saying? So there's 80 people there at all times? No, it's not even packed because people are dying to get in there because it's such a sweet spot.

Starting point is 00:15:25 You know, there's nothing going on. But you can't get in there. You have to be a high. It has to be where the prosecutors feel like, all right, are you really in danger? Who are you telling on? Are you really known? mine is automatic. I'm going to be in newspapers.

Starting point is 00:15:37 I'm going to be all over the internet. My guys just beat the biggest case in the country. La Tonza High's case. He just won the fucking Latanza case. So you know I have to go in there. They put me under a fake name. I had to take a lot of attack test. And what they ask you in a lot of attack test,

Starting point is 00:15:51 are you going in here to hurt somebody? Because people, cartel guys were trying to send people in there to kill the witnesses. Okay. You get what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they would sense.

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Starting point is 00:16:51 Plus, that signature, wait, for this price, moment. Old Navy's drapey denim wide leg. So let's say you're in Mexico, you're dirt poor. Yeah. Your family has nothing. They'll say, hey, listen, go in there, kill a witness, will take care of your family. They'll do it.

Starting point is 00:17:05 Right. Just going in and kill that guy, he's testifying against so-and-so, or drug leader. So they have to make sure that you're not doing that. It gave you a lot of tech the test. Are you being paid to go in here?

Starting point is 00:17:14 All kinds of crazy questions. I passed it, obviously. But they had to get me out of there because I just knocked the guy's teeth out and they were trying to re-arrest me. So they had to get me out of there. I didn't exist. So if they fingerprint me,

Starting point is 00:17:26 I don't come up. My name's Joey Russo in there. Understand? Right. I knocked the guy's teeth out. I caught staff affection. I was pus coming out. I couldn't close my hand for a year.

Starting point is 00:17:36 Yeah, I knocked him out, knocked his teeth out, and then they were trying to re-arrest me. So my prosecutors are trying to say, you can't re-arrest him. It's going to pop up. We have to get him out of that. You cannot do that. You can't fingerprint them.

Starting point is 00:17:46 He's a huge witness against the mafia. They didn't want to hear it. How I got out of it, the warden says that in his, this is crazy. This is how corrupt it is. I'm sorry, not to say corrupt, but it's just how much they work together. Yeah, they work together.

Starting point is 00:18:00 Yeah, yeah. Guys, I'm sorry. I have to say this, but I was so wrong. I hit him with a chair afterwards on top of it. Like, I not only knocked him out, knock his teeth out,

Starting point is 00:18:07 I took a chair and smacked him across his head with it. Like, I was fucked. Like, you have no idea. And there was no signs of him being aggressive. He didn't want to clean the phone after he sneezed on it. He said something nasty to me,

Starting point is 00:18:15 and I just wrecked him. There was no signs of him doing anything aggressive towards me. And the warning goes in my 30 years of experience, I feel he was defending himself. You can't make this shit up. And they didn't arrest me. and got me into wood sack. Okay?

Starting point is 00:18:35 So that's how much like when they need you, you know, they need you. Yeah, they need you. Yeah. And, you know, it's on camera, me just wrecking this guy and beating him with a chair and the warden stuck up with me. So once you're in witness protection, yeah.

Starting point is 00:18:49 I mean, how, like, are they, so you're in a special unit? Yeah, Ferrington. Okay, so you're a special unit. So like, listen, when they were in, when they were coming to question me, it was, I went six months before I saw anybody. Right. And then, of course, then they have to fly everybody in.

Starting point is 00:19:08 They're at a fucking hotel somewhere. And then they're seeing you every day for four or five days, 10 hours a day. You know, so I'm wondering, are these people, are they coming, going? Well, organized crime cases, they have a lot more funding. You know what I'm saying? So they have, like, unlimited funding almost when it's testifying against mafia. They spend $7 million in the Latanza case and lost it. They spent $7 million.

Starting point is 00:19:27 So they have unlimited funds when it comes to these kind of high-profile people. sold. They had me basically in an area where they have like safe houses. Right. Or like places where they have like, y'all, the door was crazy. Like you go inside like a building and it's like on the sixth floor of like a commercial building where it's like other businesses.

Starting point is 00:19:43 You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. And you just go up to the sixth floor and then they have like do to do codes and they go into like these rooms. But you're still cuffed up. Not when I go in the room. Oh, when you go.

Starting point is 00:19:52 Okay. They take everything off. Okay. But I mean they're coming. I'm saying, are they coming to the witness protection unit? No. not the one in the special, when I'm in the regular county prison, they were taking me out to do profits from there.

Starting point is 00:20:05 Okay. I got to sit down with them once a week. I got a thousand crimes to go over. So I got to come out with them twice a week once a week. Right. You get what I'm handcuffed, your walk. Not when I'm going into that building. Okay, that's what I'm wondering.

Starting point is 00:20:18 Are you in the car? They take the handcuffs off? Everything off. Well, it becomes you're in their property. You go in the thing and they walk you into like a building, like a commercial. It's like almost a building where there's other people like businesses going on. You go on the elevator, you go to the special floor. To get in there is all like those big, you know those locked pairs, like those digital shit.

Starting point is 00:20:36 Do do, do, do, do. They go on there. Then you start seeing government pitches all over the wall. Now you know you with them. Yeah. And then all of a sudden you go into another doodoo, and you go sit in the room. That's it. And there's all kinds of profit rooms.

Starting point is 00:20:47 And then what? Two, three people come in? No, my prosecutors are there and the agents. I was with the same people every time. Okay. Remember, they just lost the biggest case in the country. They're devastated. They're embarrassed.

Starting point is 00:20:56 They're all over the front page of the paper. They had more media attention than that. any mob case ever in the history of mafia. I'm working with the exact team that just lost. Right. They're fucking furious. You know what I'm saying? They had wiretapsed this guy going,

Starting point is 00:21:07 I killed them, buried under a house. They found the bones. He still beat it. You know what I'm saying? They found the guy under a house and he still got found out guilty. Get what I'm saying? They found the bones.

Starting point is 00:21:17 Yeah, yeah. He told him where it was on wiretap and they still didn't find him guilty. Something's wrong there. What do you mean? It's crazy. So I'm sitting with the quadratery, who's a known chief of organized crime,

Starting point is 00:21:28 Lindsey Gerdes. So also when you have organized crime cases, you get the best of the best of the best. Murder trial specialist, this specialist, that special. So I'm sitting with the best prosecutors in the building. You know what I'm saying? Harvard, Yale.

Starting point is 00:21:41 I mean, talking about like, you know, the elite. So. And then I'm sitting with these agents and the prosecutors and then you go over everything with them for hours. I'm talking about you start at seven in the morning with me to like seven at night, bro. Literally, because I had so much shit to go over and wiretaps and things. Because remember, I'm 2200 pages out of the wiretops.

Starting point is 00:21:58 taps at a 15,000. So I was a big part of this case. Right. So I had to go over so much stuff with them. I'm with Ronnie G. every day. He's a captain. I'm with Vinny every day. He's a fucking coniglia. Why is a kid with these people? You know what I'm saying? They're just trying to put everything together.

Starting point is 00:22:13 Why are you with them? Like, you know, I'm just trying to. They knew, but they try, you have to break down everything you ever did in your life, bro. Right. From fucking stealing candy at seven years old to fucking, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. And that's how it happened. I had to sign the contract.

Starting point is 00:22:28 and then my lawyer stopped coming because they were comfortable with me. Like my lawyer had to be there. And after the first time, they're like, no, he's good. He's easy going, you know. And then my lawyer didn't have to come to more. And then I would be with the agents and the prosecutors every single time. First of all, the whole cooperating thing. Like, I don't know if you know this, but the federal sentencing guideline or whatever,

Starting point is 00:22:51 the committee or anything, they did a whole thing back in like, I want to say 2004, 3, where they did a whole review and they broke the entire country up by the districts and told how many people are cooperating what the cooperation is, like these people typically get 30%. These people are like 51%.

Starting point is 00:23:12 New York don't have that. New York, you get 80% off. No, I know, but I'm saying New York was a part of it. I don't remember what it was. Yeah. I remember when I was in prison. Florida's horrible. It was like 15% off, right?

Starting point is 00:23:21 It was going around. Yeah. 50. I wish it was 15. 15. Oh, yeah. I was going to say, hell no. It was more like, it was more like, yeah, it was like 20%.

Starting point is 00:23:29 It's horrible. I was in Georgia. Georgia was no better than Florida. It was probably 22, 23%. And it depends on the crime, by the way. Yeah. If it's, let's say it's, well, if it's violent or something like that, it's a lot. If it's fraud, eh, if it's gang related, like, they have different variations.

Starting point is 00:23:44 You know, I think, like, if you could give them like... Do you know what a New York saying is? It's not what you're telling on. It's who you're telling on a big-time guy, you're walking the fuck out. I'm sorry. It's just what you can have as many murders you want. If you tell on the right people, you're telling on the right people. People, New York, you're walking out.

Starting point is 00:23:57 Right. You're walking out. I have all my friends to prove it. My friend was a serial killer, basically. He was blown, but he was telling me stories in the box. I was like, how is this guy? I said, I don't even feel safe for this guy coming out. He was pulling guys out of holes with meat hooks.

Starting point is 00:24:09 You get the guy eight years? Think about that. They don't care if you give them what they want. In New York, they'll give you a second chance. So how long is this, how long is your process? What I'm trying to say is that, like, there's 100% from the government. Like, there's cooperation across the board. It's something like, like, there were some people that almost always, like fraud, it was like 92% of all fraud cases cooperate.

Starting point is 00:24:34 The drugs was like 87%. Oh, bro. I'll be honest you, the gang members are the worst. They just don't glorify like the mob. Well, I think the difference was this. Keep in mind, they have a whole subsection. The difference is that's cooperation that's given. Doesn't mean that 99% didn't try and cooperate, but these guys cooperate and then they don't get, you know, you might say, oh, it's that you tried to cooperate.

Starting point is 00:24:54 but it didn't lead to any arrests so you don't get the cooperation. Right. So people are like, oh, you know, it's not that high. No, it's like 87% get cooperation. It's like John Jr. Right.

Starting point is 00:25:06 Okay, why what happened with him? Because he was undermising. He didn't want to, like when he was cooperating, he was trying to blame everything on his father. Yeah, you can't do that. But I'm saying, if you look, I'll tell you funny thing. We're gang members, if there's a 90-man indictment, 70 of them are cooperating, 70 of them will cooperate.

Starting point is 00:25:21 But you want to know why? They're nobody's. You're not going to hear about it in the paper. One mob guy cooperates who on the front page. Right. So you don't hear about it. The gangs are the worst.

Starting point is 00:25:29 The bloods, the gang members, they're all telling like crazy. And then they'll go change their nickname and join a different gang in a different borough. I swear to God. They'll go from e-money to something else and they'll go be in a different gang set and they won't even know.

Starting point is 00:25:40 They just told down a whole building in Brooklyn. Now they're in the Bronx gang banging. When I cooperated and it came out on the front page of the St. Peak Times. And then they throw me into the shoe. Right. I'm in the shoe. So I'm in the shoe for 45 days.

Starting point is 00:25:53 I luck to you. By the time they come to get me, just to talk to me, they come, they sit down, they go, okay, look, we're going to have you at it. They said, first of all, do you feel safe here? Like, do you understand what happened? They showed the picture. I said, yeah, yeah, I get it. And this is the medium. And he goes, listen, he said, we can ship you.

Starting point is 00:26:09 And I said, no, no, no. I said, I want to go back. And he was like, yeah, you might have some problems. I go, bro, if you scream snitch on this compound, half the compound turns around. He goes, oh, no, it's much, much worse than that. Yeah, of course. Much worse. But everyone, listen, like I said, a lot of guys can't get a deal and they want a deal.

Starting point is 00:26:24 Like in the feds, I don't know if you know how it works. There's never ending cooperation in the feds. Like, I had a friend of mine from Washington, D.C. I was in the unit to him, right? And, you know, everyone talks about their cases. And he blew trial in D.C. And D.C. has really fucked up drug laws. They gave him five consecutive life sentences for drugs.

Starting point is 00:26:39 It was the sickest thing I've seen in my life. He was in Marion, I believe, one of those big maxes, when those really bad maxes where they're killing each other a little time. He was in there for a couple of years. and all of a sudden, an Aryan brother stabs a guy to that in front of him. And now when somebody gets killed in there, they come around with a white shirt will come around. Do you see anything?

Starting point is 00:26:59 Yeah, wait, yeah. Now, you know, in there, if you talk to that cop too long, they're gonna fucking kill you. Right. So it's like this. He said he went, like, to him. He's in there for eight years.

Starting point is 00:27:05 He's sick. He's done with this shit. He goes, this is my opportunity. He goes, and he like this to them. Wait, all you got to do is give the head nod. They'll make it like they didn't see it. They came back and got him three months later, had him testifying a jailmer.

Starting point is 00:27:17 He got 27 years. His five life sentences turned to 27. So you could always cooperate in the system. On a jail murder, they turned his five life sentences to 27 years, which is amazing. When you think you're never coming out again, and now you have a chance of life. Yeah, you can see the light. Right, you know what I'm saying? So they have a thing called Rule 35.

Starting point is 00:27:35 It's after cooperation. You know, only five, you can only get one 5K letter per case. So if you could cooperate in a multiple case, you get multiple 5K case. But let's say you start off with 100 years. The judge screwed you over. And you could cooperate against so-and-so and this so-and-so, you keep getting Rule 35s. There's no limit to them. Nine years off, eight years off, six years off.

Starting point is 00:27:52 They could just keep knocking time off. So when you're in the feds, my lawyer said you have to be careful because people jump on your case and because they get a Rule 35. Right. On you. A guy can be sitting down 35 years. He's been down eight years. He hears you talk about something.

Starting point is 00:28:03 Go call a prosecutor. You get a rule 35 on you. It happens all the time. I mean, I know it does. Yes. Happens all the time. I had a guy who I was walking on the compound. One day he tells me where he hit a bunch of money, I fucking.

Starting point is 00:28:16 told my lawyer, hey, listen, this is what happened. You know, she goes, I said, you know, I don't think they're going to give me. They didn't want to give me anything the first time. They're not going to do this. I was like, it's maybe $100,000, $150,000. It's nothing. And she made a phone call.

Starting point is 00:28:28 One day, one of the fucking, the CEOs comes to me and says, hey, you got to go to SIS at the next move. Like kind of, like, hey, cops. Yeah. I'm like, yeah, what's up? And you like, kind of get it. You got to be careful going to see SSS. SIS.

Starting point is 00:28:37 Here's the thing. I used to be in and out of there all the time. Because because I was writing guys story, so I was getting Freedom of Information Act. Let's say I ordered it on you, and I'm writing a story on you. It'd be sent to me. If they'd catch it in the mailroom,

Starting point is 00:28:48 they'd call me and they go, okay, what's this? And I go, I'm writing a story on the guy, and they'd be like, oh, okay, but they already knew I'd already got guys. Guys were okay with that in the joint? They were because I very knew. By this point, I've got two books, and I've put some guys in Rolling Stone magazine.

Starting point is 00:29:03 So guys already know, they're like, oh, he's writing that guy's story. And I'm walking around with guys with a fucking pen and paper. Right. This is at the low, bro. Everybody's fucking cool. The law is different.

Starting point is 00:29:11 You're not doing that in a medium hire or a pen. They're going to stab you off to your other two seconds. No, I kept it myself. Yeah. So, but what happened, they call me in there. I walk in. He goes, Cox, come here, sit down. I got to make a, and I'm sitting there like, I'm waiting for my fucking mail.

Starting point is 00:29:24 Like, I'm assuming. Picks up the phone says, you got to talk to this guy. Boom, it's a secret service agent. Yeah. And when I went to go leave, he said, hey, he goes, do you want me to write something up? And I go, what do you mean? He said, like, I can write you like a dummy shot that you can show. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:29:38 And I looked at my said, bro, I said, I don't know. Yeah, I was like, come on, bro. Like, I'm one of the, unfortunately, this is how bad it is. I'm one of the tougher guys in my fucking company. Like, I'm like, no, no, I'm good. That's how, I know, yeah. You know, so, so would they give you on that? Did they help you?

Starting point is 00:29:51 Did they knock off any time? They knocked off five years. That's not bad. Yeah, yeah. For Rule 35, you got, right? And you get in the mail. You didn't go in front of charge. You got in the mail, right?

Starting point is 00:29:58 Because the ones that we get in the mail, yes. Because they were going, when I was in the units. They could have brought me back. So I'll tell you a crazy one. My friend, do you remember the kid in the Bronx that I killed with the machete in the store? It was a real fucked up crime. The Batias killed him, Dominican gang.

Starting point is 00:30:12 Unfortunately, I've heard that before in New York guys getting fucking stads. All right, so anyway, they were part of this gang, the Bati is. They were a known Dominican gang. They're brutal. They're fucking savages. And they killed this kid anyway.

Starting point is 00:30:22 So Mudo was already locked up, but he had that in the hole. Like he could help on that case. Yeah. This is all he had to do for five years off, like you just got. All he had to do was be a credible witness and explain to the judge

Starting point is 00:30:34 He already had 15 years for cooperating. He got a bad deal. In New York, it's a bad deal. Even though he had two heinous murders, it was still bad guys that he killed. He thought he was going home. The judge says, no, your crime is too heinous. You killed a guy with a machete.

Starting point is 00:30:48 It's too personal. I'm not letting you go. I'm giving you 15 years. He was heartbroken, devastated. He told him all his friends, that, whatever. All of a sudden, I don't know where. He's like three more years in. We just need you to be a character witness

Starting point is 00:30:58 and explain to the jury because he's coming down on appeal. Right. The guy's coming down in appeal. We just need you to explain. what the gang is and how it operates, and we'll give you Route 35. He's like, there's no way.

Starting point is 00:31:10 Bro, we're home. We're home for explaining to a jury. This is how New York is. What the fucking gang does and what his operation and what his role was. He got it in the mail. He goes, bro, I'm going home. They just got it in the mail.

Starting point is 00:31:24 Wasn't there. Because you're going home in two weeks. Meanwhile, I was supposed to go home in seven more years. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? It was crazy. We were like, what are you talking about?

Starting point is 00:31:30 He's, bro. They're sending me home. He goes, it worked. He goes, I went down there. He was gone for two months. Went down, he was stuck in the hole the whole time. Now, went down there, did he ready to do? Came back all of a sudden, like three months later.

Starting point is 00:31:40 He goes, yo, I'm going home in two weeks. He was bugging out. That's how it works. So my cousin, I'm at the medium. My cousin gets 20, 23 years. Right. He gets 23 years. I don't know if it's 23. But whatever, close to 23 years for meth.

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Starting point is 00:32:14 please contact connects Ontario at 1-866-531-2,600 to speak to an advisor. Free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. Yeah, I've seen it. They crush people with meth. Yeah. Well, he's been out of fucking jealous whole life. No, but they're there with the meth.

Starting point is 00:32:32 But this was a, this was in Florida, he gets 23 years. He said, I get there, I show up. Well, no, I'm sorry. He's about to get 23 years. Let me put it that way. He's about to get 23 years. So he actually went, I think this was the same time he went to plead guilty. Goes to plead guilty with this young kid.

Starting point is 00:32:47 He has a kid's like 22 years old. Colby's heard the story. So they go in, he gets sentenced. He goes in. He's in the holding tank, you know, the little Marshall's holding tank. So he's sitting there. There's about four or five Mexican guys there. He has nobody speaks English.

Starting point is 00:33:01 He said this one Mexican walks in and he said the guy, the other white guy in there, sits up. The kid sits up and he's like, like fuck. The Mexican walks right over, sits down, looks at him and he says, if you don't fucking come off my witness list in the next fucking week, he said, I'm going to have your fucking mother killed and your and your sister killed. And he goes, you live at 3802 and he names the fucking address. And the kid's like, I don't even know why I'm on that list. I wasn't going to cooperate. I shouldn't even be on the list. He's like, you matter my lawyer better tell me in the next week that you're off the fucking list.

Starting point is 00:33:35 Kids freaking out. So they end up going back to the unit. The kid comes to him, comes to Reese. He doesn't read or write. He was, can you write this letter? Help me write this letter to the prosecutor. And he goes, I'll help you write the letter. But that kid, he ain't going to do nothing. And he's like, no, you don't know these people. So my cousin writes the letter for him. They send it off. My cousin ends up a couple of weeks later, whatever, gets

Starting point is 00:33:53 23 years, goes to the medium at Coleman. He said, I'm there about two months. And he said, after about two, three months. months. He said, I'm on the pack out. I got to go on the pack out. And he said, I thought, he said, I did have a... They killed the family? No, he said, I did have a case. He said, I did have like a driving, like a DUI case or something. I thought, fuck, they're going to take me back to Florida for the case. Yeah. So he gets on the bus. He goes back. He's, I'm there two weeks. I don't

Starting point is 00:34:20 know what the fuck I'm there for. Yeah. I'm in the federal building. Right. Not the county. He said, so one day they call, hey, cuff up. He cuffs up. He goes to the federal building. They put him in an elevator. He's like, what's going on? What's going on? they put them in a little room in the U.S. Attorney's office. U.S. attorney walks in and looks at him and says, no, actually he said they were at a conference room. He walks in the conference room, the U.S. attorney was already there. And he looks at me, he was like, what's going on?

Starting point is 00:34:44 He said, two months ago, you were in a fucking holding tank with this guy, and he names a kid. He said, someone walked in and sat down and said something. What did they say? My cousin goes, does he have to know my cousin? He goes, what do you want him to have said? He goes, don't fuck with me, bro. He said, what did the guy say?

Starting point is 00:35:03 He said he was going to kill, if he didn't come off the witness list, he was going to kill his mother and his sister, and he named his address. He was, as a matter of fact, when we got back to the unit, he said, I wrote the letter to you for the kid because he doesn't write so well. And he went, will you testify to that? He was, you're going to take care of me? And he goes, I'm going to take care of you. He goes, absolutely, I'll testify. He was, okay, turned him around, went back. He said, I go back to fucking Coleman.

Starting point is 00:35:28 He was three, four months go by. One day I'm on the pack out. go all the way back didn't even get it didn't get this in the mail by the way goes all the way back goes in front of the judge he said i'm still not knowing what is he's i go up and they're like oh you're going to court he's like for what yeah he said i forgot about it goes in he said i walk in i see the fucking prosecutor i walk up he goes he looks at him and he's like what's going on he said i'm taking care you and judge comes in he said this man agreed to testify blah blah blah blah they they they pled guilty blah blah because of his his thing because he how much state is this what state is

Starting point is 00:35:59 This was Florida, knocked 25%. So we went from 23 years down to like 15 or 16? Oh, all right. Right, not bad. For something. For what? For nothing? I walked in a room, but didn't have to testify nothing. Walked in a room.

Starting point is 00:36:13 Put him back on the bus, went back. Yeah, on 15 you do 12. So it's, you know, a lot better, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, he did. Yeah, basically same thing as me, about 12.13. Yeah, on 15, you do 128. No, without the halfway house, you know what I'm saying? So that's not bad.

Starting point is 00:36:24 That's very quick calculation there. But I know all the guidelines. You know that. On 15, you do 12-8, guys. That's known. I know tons of, I mean, I, like the, there's, you know, listen, everybody there. I was locked up with a guy in the shoe, black guy, had been in the fucking pin. Right.

Starting point is 00:36:38 We're in the shoe. You testify in a murdering there. They go all the time. Well, he's in the shoe. He never, he got like 25 years. Right. He's one of these guys constantly assing the guard. Can I use the phone?

Starting point is 00:36:49 Can I use the phone? It's every day. Can I use the phone? They're letting him use the phone two, three times a week. He gets on the phone with his son. his son had got kicked out or suspended from school he was wrestling top wrestler everything he's on the phone trying to tell his son you can't be fighting you can't be doing this you can't be doing that hangs up the phone somehow or another he and i end up start or are talking about cooperation because

Starting point is 00:37:15 he's all snitches this snitches this a snitch put me here snitch this he's trying to figure out how to do it yeah well well what happened was and then he tells me a story he said yeah he said when i was to Penn, he had a guy he played handball with every day. He said, that guy, he said, we were cool. He said, well, like, I didn't think we weren't this cool, but he said, he felt we were. He said, the guy comes up to him one time and says, look, he says, my girl knows some drug dealers. And he's like, okay. And he says, we're on the racquetball court just stops. And he goes, my girl knows some drug dealers that she can bust, get me out of here. He'd been locked at like 15 fucking years and he has on a

Starting point is 00:37:53 25 year sentence or something. And he was, he said, now what the fuck are you talking about? He's like, yes, it's called it. He explains to him. It's called 30, rule 35. Third party cooperation. Right. She's going to cooperate. She's going to do this. She's going to do that. And he looks at him and he goes, man, I don't want to fucking hear that. I don't want to hear that. I don't want to hear that. He's like, I don't want to know, you know, I don't want to be associated. This guy's talking about snitching and shit. I don't want

Starting point is 00:38:12 nothing to do with that. Tells him the whole thing. He said, three months go by. The guy tells him, he says, my girl busted them. them fucking guys. He's like, man, I told you, I don't want to hear nothing about that. Six months go by. He says, bro, them dudes all pled guilty. He said, I don't say nothing. I'm like, whatever. He said, three more months go by. He's gone. Yeah, he said, one day he's walking. He's going to, he's going up to the wreck. He said, I'm supposed to, like, meet him. And he's passing him.

Starting point is 00:38:43 Well, you already know this guy's suspect because the guy already told him he's cooperating, and he's still playing handball with him. So you already know the time it is. You know what I'm saying? Well, so he sees him and he's like, bro, you're going to meet me out there? He said, no. He said, I'm leaving. Next day, he's doing his job and sees him with his bags and says to him, he's, bro, what are you doing? You're getting transferred? He is, I told you, motherfucker.

Starting point is 00:39:05 I can't do this anymore. I'm leaving. He said, if you're smart, you'll do the same fucking thing. He walks off. He said, dude went home. Now, we're in there and he's telling me his story. He's all disgusted, right? Yeah, I'd fucking snitch motherfucker.

Starting point is 00:39:17 I'm saying nothing, bro. This fucking guy just got out of the. pin. He's at the medium. Right. And he's already, he's been in the medium a month. He's already in the shoe going back to the pen. So I'm sitting there like, oh, yeah, that's fucked up. You know, I don't want to get killed. So I'm sitting there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he sits there. He's like, yeah, he's going on and on. I said, well, I got a question for you. And I said, what I said. And then he told me, can you believe I told my fucking girl that? And then she told me she knew some motherfuckers. He was, and she's fucking a dude now. He's a big time drug

Starting point is 00:39:46 dealer, blah, blah, blah. But she wants me home. Okay. She got his kid, whatever. He's his baby, it's her, it's his baby's mama. And he's on the phone with the kid, fucking every couple of days. She lines him up. Yeah. And I said to him, and I'm sitting there going, bro, I said, listen, let me tell you something. I said, you're, I said, do you think your son, when he's playing, when he's wrestling and he looks up in the fucking stands, do you think that all, when all of his buddies say, hey, there's my mom, there's my dad, there's my dad, there's my dad, and they say all that thing. So I said, do you think that your son's going to look up there and think that that stand is empty

Starting point is 00:40:18 and tell all of his buddy, yeah, my dad's not here, but he's a stand-up guy? No. I said, your son don't give a fuck. Your son would rather look up there and say, there's my fucking dad. I said, that's all that fucking matters. I said, I mean, you do what you want to do.

Starting point is 00:40:32 And so we talk about it for the next day or two. He gets on the phone with his girl, and he says, you know that thing you told me about? He goes, yeah, I think you need to call the guy. Because she'd already been approached by his DEA agent. She was saying, I can call him. Right. This guy had already been locked up like fucking 10 years.

Starting point is 00:40:49 Right. So he calls her. Well, I'm 25. You got to do 22. Yeah. So you're in there for a while. Yeah, he's got some time. Got some time.

Starting point is 00:40:55 12 more years, 12 more he is, bro. He calls, while I'm there, he gets, he gets the, you know what I remember?

Starting point is 00:41:01 I just a lit name with Griffin. I always thought that was a coolest fucking name. Anyway, he gets that the ball started right there just by being in the room with me for, for two fucking days. Like, I'm potent. Anyway,

Starting point is 00:41:11 honestly, he'd been thinking about it anyway. 100%. So, so it happens all. the fucking time. You know, we know it's funny, Matt, and we're talking about third party cooperation. There's one, there's a big thing going on right now.

Starting point is 00:41:23 I don't know if you've heard of Big Meach. Yeah, of okay, so with him, and I wanted to break that down, I'm glad I'm on your show today. 50 cent. Obviously, I'm a huge fan of 50. I grew up watching him, listening to him and everything, and I could break down that whole thing what Big Meach did. Big Meach sat with the government. There's no if and buts about it.

Starting point is 00:41:41 See, with third party cooperation, the way that he's doing it, if it's not like how you just said, a new crime where he's setting somebody up out there. Yeah. Then you don't have to sit with the government, you know, your people just, you know, do it. I think he got somebody locked up on old crimes, if one, I'm not mistaken, right? Didn't the guy get a rain? So if you're giving them something that you've done with this man before, you can't take it to a third party. You understand?

Starting point is 00:42:05 Okay. So like, let's say me and you, all right, look, what you just described to me, you said, the girl's going to set people up, right? Right. That's third party cooperation and you can give the credit to me. So you're out there on the street and I tell you, hey, Matt, go set up so and So for two bricks with these agents, and I'm going to get the credit for you doing it.

Starting point is 00:42:20 That's third-party cooperation. I don't have to sit with the government if I never cooperate. That's fine. You just get the credit from you. Right. Now, if I'm saying you did something to so-and-so back in the day,

Starting point is 00:42:30 I have to do an agreement. I have to sit with the government. There's no third-party cooperation. Right. You understand what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. Well, it's first party. It's you.

Starting point is 00:42:38 You cannot do third-party cooperation like that. The only way third-party cooperation is just the way you said it, what the girls are doing and all that stuff. They're helping you. They're helping you get out. They're not giving previous crimes that you did with somebody.

Starting point is 00:42:51 You can't do that. The government won't allow it. You have to go sit with the government. You have to sign contracts. You have to go tell them everything. Listen to me. Once you step into that room, there's no holding back.

Starting point is 00:43:01 You have to tell them everything you did in your whole life. So right now, Big Meach probably gave them everything he ever did in his life. He probably gave them unsolved murders. You don't even know. So right now it's coming out that he's cooperating. It's no third party. His party. He was with them.

Starting point is 00:43:15 He sat with the government. government. There's no if buts about it unless he did it your way. Like you just said, his girl went out there and bust somebody and gave him the credit. I think that, I feel like that, you know, I'm actually supposed to do a video on this and I don't know much about it. It's still cooperating. You're still little no good. But at the end of the day, listen, I don't know the exact how it went down, but if he got somebody locked up from an old crime that he did with the person, yeah, there's no third party. There's no third party. Right. That means Big Meach was in the room with the government and gave them all kinds of information.

Starting point is 00:43:46 And you can't just give them what you want. You can't just say, oh, hey, I'm going to cooperate in this guy, but not that guy. They'll say, okay, get lost. You cannot do that. I tried doing that. Or even better, by the way. Right. And there's a guy, I know a guy who, and listen, like, everybody, the government, like, they are,

Starting point is 00:44:02 they're dirty. Yeah. They will, they will look for it up, like, they can know from the get-go, we're not going to give this guy nothing. But we'll take everything he's going to say and we'll use it. Well, they can't do that. I'll tell you what they could do. They could only.

Starting point is 00:44:14 so here's the deal with that. And they broke that down to me. They can question. They can't go to the exact things that you gave them, but they could work around it. You understand? Like they can't, they explain to me how that goes.

Starting point is 00:44:26 I'm like, what if I give you this stuff and you don't use me? They says, well, with that, we can't exactly, like if I told them where the body was. They can't go dig up the body and charge the guy and they give you nothing. No, no, I understand. What I'm saying is this, is that I knew a guy.

Starting point is 00:44:41 I've mentioned him before. But anyway, his name's Kevin. So let's go with Kevin. he he went to trial right first of all i love the trial thing by the way like this is a great example first he's running a financial scam scam he goes to first they come to him and they go look we got you you're indicted you're fucked right we're going to give you we'll give you and i don't know the exact numbers because i think i've told this story probably a year ago but they say look we're going to give you five years and if you plead guilty and testify against these other people

Starting point is 00:45:09 see it don't work like that with the new york okay they don't do they can't do that i'm surprised they allow that oh absolutely yeah they don't me how many people I know they've said three years. They're not supposed to see. They're not supposed to do that. In the federal system? Yeah, they can't promise you. Yeah, they can't even give you a number ahead of time. They have to give you a guideline you cop out and you get sentenced by a judge. I know that. I know what I'm saying is they're saying, I don't want to do that here because

Starting point is 00:45:30 I want to say, you know, they're going to say, we'll hit you for two levels and we'll give you this enhanced. Like they, they craft it where you know I'm going to be in this range. Right. His range was around five years. So you're in the five year range, whatever. So he's like, okay, okay. He's like, okay, he's like, yeah, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to plead guilty.

Starting point is 00:45:46 I didn't do anything wrong. He goes to trial. He loses. He gets, I'm going to say 25 years. They always max you. I think it was 30, but whatever. So let's say 25. So he gets 25 years.

Starting point is 00:45:58 That's not true, bro. He did a fucking time of time. I want to say 30. He gets 30 years. Then they come back to him and they say, listen. No, yes. So they say, listen. Your co-defendant is going to trial.

Starting point is 00:46:12 Testifying. And this code of, like, These guys are going to testify against them. We'll cut your shit in half, 15 years, right? We'll cut it in half, whatever. Well, that's what we'll recommend. All right. And, you know, and he says, fuck you.

Starting point is 00:46:25 He said, I'm going to win on appeal. And they go, okay, the guy goes to trial. He loses, and that guy gets like 20 years. Another co-defendant goes to trial. They say, go to trial. We'll still give you, you testify, we'll give you something. Well, you can get down to around 20 years. And he says,

Starting point is 00:46:44 Fuck you. I'm going to beat you on my, on my 2255. And he lose, they go to trial. He doesn't, they get found guilty. He loses on his 2255. So. Stubborn. Yeah. Idiot.

Starting point is 00:46:56 So then, now he's got 30 years. He then turns around, this is after he's been locked up like five, fuck it. It's not been five, six years. Right. His sister comes to him and says, listen, I know a guy is a drug dealer. He likes me. I understand there's something called a third party rule 35. And he goes, yes, there is.

Starting point is 00:47:14 Yeah. And so she contacts the prosecutor, puts her in contact with, like, a DEA agent, DEA agent. He shouldn't, but he does. He makes promise, oh, absolutely, I'm going to get him out. He's going to get cooperation. You know, he says all these things, which he can't say, but whatever, he does it. So when I say she sets this guy up, the drug dealer with a boatload of drugs,

Starting point is 00:47:36 she gives them a boatload of fucking drugs. They didn't give him anything? A fucking thing. And then he files a... They didn't like him. Of course he went to trial and he was an obnoxious prick. They didn't like him.

Starting point is 00:47:48 Listen, if they don't like you, they'll fuck you. And he, listen, on his appeal, like he files a... Well, look at gas pipe. Well, hold what, he files a bunch of motions. Your Honor, this phone call, this phone call. I have this. They promised me this. Like, he's got, he's been doing legal work.

Starting point is 00:48:02 He's got it. I'm surprised he didn't get nothing with the evidence. He got nothing. Well, Rule 35, he's up to a judge. They give you a day off if they want. You know, right? Right. Well, yeah, I know.

Starting point is 00:48:10 It's up to a judge. But here's what he said. This is actually what the response said. It says it in the motion. I read the fucking motion. This was before Osama bin Laden got caught. They said if this, if Kevin, whatever his name is, if Kevin were to give us the location to Osama bin Laden,

Starting point is 00:48:27 he doesn't get one day off his sentence. It was said that in the motion. No, they didn't like this guy. Robert Mosakowski, which is the U.S. attorney here now. That's different. They hated him. They did. He went to trial.

Starting point is 00:48:38 Yeah, no, that's different. Because that is not how it works. But usually you could go up to a judge and the rule 35, he could give you 10 days off. He don't have to give you five years off. So it's really up. The federal judge could say, yeah, I'm giving you two days off. But see, in some jurisdictions, some districts, like New York, New York, California, there's four or five of them where you can file like a motion.

Starting point is 00:48:59 It's called a specific performance motion. Like it compulsed them to file something. In Florida, you can't. Right. Like in Florida, Georgia, Most of the districts, you can say, Your Honor, I got 100% guaranteed. This is what they promised. Like, they said this.

Starting point is 00:49:14 They don't matter. They don't give a fuck. Well, it's super strict to call. Cooperation sucks at any states. I'm telling you. Texas is horrible, too. You guys with telling on a, they still come back with 20-year sentences after cooperation. They're not good.

Starting point is 00:49:26 It's not how, like, the way New Jersey, even New Jersey is a lot better than most states. And New York is the absolute best. You know what I mean? You could, if you have a drug case and you're giving murders, you're walking out the door and you go to court. Like, when you get sentenced, if you have a year in, you're gone. No violence. No violence and you're giving them what they want. The day you go to court, you're going home.

Starting point is 00:49:46 You could tell you, they'll tell you how you have clothes waiting with you. They told my mother that. What's lead pipe? They told my mother that and I'm like, there's no way. I'm like, you sure? They say, yo, bring clothes. I'm like, why? They're like, bring clothes.

Starting point is 00:49:57 Tell your mom to bring clothes. In other words, I'm walking out the courtroom. So what's lead pipe? What happened? Gas pipe was a boss of the Likaze family. He killed, I don't know, 30-something people. He had 30-something murders. He had 30 something, no exaggeration,

Starting point is 00:50:10 he had 30 something murders. They gave him a deal. He gave him a Vicamuso, a lot of guys. What happened was he was going to get his chance to go home. They probably had him doing like 12 years. He gets into a beef in Farrington, and he creates a blackjack and beats the guy with it. The prosecutor goes, okay, you kill 30-something people.

Starting point is 00:50:27 You're now beating a man nearly a death in our Widsack units. Now you're going to do life in prison and gave him no time off. Yeah. Because you show that you're... Listen, look, yes, because not only did you... A fight is one thing. Like, I knocked the guy's teeth out, and that was bad, you know, but I didn't even have my thing set yet.

Starting point is 00:50:44 I knocked his teeth out and he's beating him with a chair, but I didn't try to kill him. Right. You try to kill a guy in Whitsack, and you're known, you're a homicidal maniac. You've done tortured people, you kill people, you have dozens, dozens of murders. You're not going back out in the street.

Starting point is 00:50:58 Well, they're basically Whitsack. They're trying to give you a reset. Like, you can go live, they want that supposedly. Like, they're hoping you go out, you get a normal job, you become a regular citizen, you put this shit behind. You're like that's the goal, right? Whether it happens or not, two different things.

Starting point is 00:51:12 Right. So I feel like, it also depends on who your prosecutor is and who the agents are because if you get dicks, you know, that's not good. You know, if you get people that read down really don't like you and they don't really like, they feel like you're a no good person, but they need your information, like you're fucked. You know what I'm saying? I've seen that.

Starting point is 00:51:28 Joe Messino blew trial and they still gave him only 10 years. He blew trial. He blew trial. The day after he blew trial, that's our boss. He called the agents up right after he blew trial, the boss of all bosses. He blew trial. The next day he's on the phone with the FBI. Right.

Starting point is 00:51:42 So everyone thought he was stand up, taking his life sentence, and he just started wearing a wire in jail on Vinnie Gorgeous. And that's how it started, and they gave him 10 years in prison. So the guy, your boss? Joe Messino. First boss of boss. He was the boss of all bosses. So I, so we had talked one time and you said that he was about to get out, but you don't.

Starting point is 00:52:02 No, Ronnie G. Ronnie, yeah. Ronnie, you're supposed to get out. He's supposed to have cancer right now, supposedly. How old is he? 54. But I'm hearing rumors that he's getting out. He's not. I don't know because I feel like if he was medically sick, he'd be gone because do you see the people that are letting out right now? Yeah, yeah. They just let out Anthony Setta, who had 14 murders. Patty Tester, these guys were

Starting point is 00:52:24 serial kills for the Janini crew. They just got out. They did 30-20-something years. They're releasing all these murderers now. They're all men. Don't matter. You killed 12 people. You convicted of killing 12 people. You didn't cooperate. You killed 12 people. One guy you ram the broom stick up his ass. You understand what I'm telling you? Yeah, I understand. They were their bad people. Hainous murders.

Starting point is 00:52:45 So if Ronnie did have cancer. Why wouldn't they let him out? Yeah, would let him right out. I think that it's more, maybe he is sick but not sick enough to release him. How much time did he get? 14 years. How much time has he done?

Starting point is 00:52:57 He's been down since March of 2017. So he's got a little over eight years, almost a full eight years in. 50% of your fucking time. Like that seems more. He's trying to get out. He's supposed to go home with 2029, but from what I was told, there's, the agents don't talk, I'm not allowed to talk to, they, I'm cut off.

Starting point is 00:53:18 They cut me off years ago. Why? I kept getting in trouble. I was banned from prosecutors and agents. That's real. Like, they're not allowed to talk to me. That's how bad it was. That's how much they hate him.

Starting point is 00:53:26 They tried to really put me back in prison. Like they were mad at me over the podcast stuff, everything. So I have no contact with them at all. But one of my other friends does. And he says that Ronnie's not getting out. That's fake. Okay. He goes, we would know.

Starting point is 00:53:36 So that's why I would be, I told that. He says, oh, is he getting out? And the agent that was on our case told my friend, that's not true. Okay. Yeah, but he, and he actually worked, is the agents that were on the case. Yeah. You know, they hated Ronnie. I can tell you that.

Starting point is 00:53:49 They did not like him. Like, there was a guy, like, they wanted him. Like, they did not like him. Like, you know, agents, they took it personal. Like, they wanted him all this true. Yeah, yeah. He was only supposed to get eight years. The judge gave him 14.

Starting point is 00:53:59 Think about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay? Yeah. So that's how much they didn't like this guy. They actually lied to him. They made him cop out to guidelines, and they said that he would get that. The judgment completely over.

Starting point is 00:54:10 And that's what it was appealing. It keeps losing his appeals. They didn't like him. They okey doked him to take like these guidelines. Right. He'd only get eight years worst case scenario. The judge came 14. You know what I'm saying?

Starting point is 00:54:21 He's supposed to be home already. They did not like him. So another thing that people ask all the time, and I know they answered this, is that, you know, guys are like, well, you got to get it. You know, they offer you something. You got to get it in writing.

Starting point is 00:54:33 Do they give it to you in writing? No. No. They're not allowed to do that. Right. Well, wait a minute. Wait a minute. He signed a contract.

Starting point is 00:54:40 A U.S. attorney can do it. So you know who Robert Mueller is? A lot of laws changed. When years you cooperate? No, no. What year did you cooperate? 2006, seven? Changed a lot.

Starting point is 00:54:52 You know that, did they record in your room when you did it? No. No recording no more. Agents got to write everything. Were you allowed to talk on the phone alone with a prosecutor? Well, I never tried. Okay, so you're not allowed no more. You used to be allowed to.

Starting point is 00:55:05 Now agent must be on the phone with the prosecutor. A lot of rules change. where now you always have to be cuffed at the table with the prosecuting agents, but they were taking it off of me because they seen I wasn't like, I guess I was cool, I got along with them. There's a new rule where you have to be cuffed now all time at the profit table. Right. But they didn't do it with me.

Starting point is 00:55:23 I'm saying this was back in the 90s. I don't even know how it went back then. Rules change, you know what I'm saying? I understand. Even then they weren't allowed to promise you anything. This guy actually has a letter from Robert Mueller promising him a reduction if he's simply sat down and had a conversation with them about what was going on. And if it was true.

Starting point is 00:55:42 And I've seen the letter. That's true. But that was Robert Mueller. That was back in the 90s. It was a big case. Right. That out of all the people I've seen and talked to, it's the only letter I've ever seen ever.

Starting point is 00:55:52 And I'm shocked. Matt, I was with guys that were down from 19, I was with Tony. He was from, you know what case he was from? Joe Spalachio. The fucking casino movie.

Starting point is 00:56:01 Right. I actually seen the pictures of the, he had them on the wall of the real Sharon Stone, who were the real people. Right. He's been down to 1978. They fucked them over. They gave him, they were supposed to, like what you just said, he testified, he had six murders.

Starting point is 00:56:13 He was a hitman for the Chicago outfit. He was supposed to, he was worked under the Boston, Milwaukee. He's supposed to get a time cut. One of his crimes was heinous. He cut the girl's tits off. They had him. What happened was she wouldn't give the property up. It's an innocent person.

Starting point is 00:56:26 Not supposed to do that. And mafia doesn't allow that. But she wouldn't give the, they were trying to take the hotels from her, buy it from her. She wouldn't give it to them. Fuck you, fuck you. So they told him make it look like a sex crime. Right. Make it like it's not from me.

Starting point is 00:56:38 the mob. They killed her and chopped the tits off. Like it was a sex crime. When he admitted to that, the judge wouldn't give him his deal. The other murders were bad guys. That was an innocent person. You killed an innocent woman. Right. Natural life. Screwed him. And they promised him. You're going to go home. Like the same thing you just said. But the judge overrules all of that. The federal judge, you can't go again. He has the last say. Don't matter what they promise you. Well, in that letter. And then they screw that guy too. But the point is I actually saw the letter. Yeah. He did have a letter. And they did give him something. Right. But he's going in there thinking I'm getting a huge cut.

Starting point is 00:57:08 Right. And they gave them like four years. It's like what? Oh. Four years. I got 30. He had like 40 years. Like what do you mean four years?

Starting point is 00:57:16 Yeah. And they were like, yeah, yeah, that's it. Four years off a fucking 40? So, but they did have a letter. But I've never seen the letter. And it also goes by how you get along with them. If they, if you're a dick with them and you're playing hardball with them, they're not going to be good to you.

Starting point is 00:57:29 I'm telling you, it really goes by that prosecutor in them. They have a lot of juice. The judge does have the final say, but it goes by what they write. Well, listen. I'm saying? I was very nice to these people. Yeah. Some of them had attitudes.

Starting point is 00:57:41 And there was nothing I could do. Well, because you had a lot of money. They don't like that either too. They don't like when you, they want to teach your lesson when you have like a... Some of them liked me. Some of them had attitudes. There was this one chick. She just did not like me.

Starting point is 00:57:51 I couldn't do anything right for this fucking. Yeah, I got along with all of them very well. They went to above and beyond for me. And when I got sentenced, the agents in the car told me, tell your mother, we told them to bring clothes. I'm like, why? Like, bring clothes, bro. And I got almost six years in it.

Starting point is 00:58:06 time but I I had a thousand violent crimes it was like a thousand like one thousand like it was so many like I was like you sure because probation recommended 10 years even after cooperation because it was so much violence right and I had so much going on and I've been committing crimes since I'm a kid shooting like bed like broad daylight shootings I almost killed an instant moment by accident I had crazy shit you know what I'm saying I was shooting into a car Ronnie had me shooting to a car and I almost shot my friend's mother she was in the car I was on the boulevard ongoing traffic shooting into a car. Right.

Starting point is 00:58:34 That's a reckless, that's bad. You know what I'm saying? I had all these crazy shootings and shooting guys in broad daylight, you know, bad crimes, you know what I mean? So I'm like,

Starting point is 00:58:44 you weren't filling out paperwork. No, I'm like, I'm like, yeah, I'm like, I'm like, I don't think I'm going home. Right. And they're like,

Starting point is 00:58:52 bring you close. Tell your mom to bring close. I'm like, all right. And sure enough, probation said 10 years after cooperation, we feel due to excessive violence. It's, you know, not, you know, just a lot.

Starting point is 00:59:03 And the prosecutor, the Eastern District don't recommend. They won't say we recommend time served, but they won't oppose it if your lawyer acts for it. Right. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. So they won't say, Your Honor, we want him to go home. They won't do that.

Starting point is 00:59:15 They'll just give the whole everything I did. And how they look at is that I outweighed, even though all the violence I did, it's the caliber of people I told on. Everybody knows in the Eastern District, when he's saddle. He just walked out laughing in front of a courtroom, joking that the bodies were in his lawyer's trunk on national news.

Starting point is 00:59:31 Did you see that? He goes, oh, don't open the trunk. There's a body in it. On national front cover, he just beat them. And everybody's laughing. And he just beat murders. And he jokes around and the thing. Goes, oh, don't open the trunk.

Starting point is 00:59:42 There's a body in there. You know, embarrassing in it? So I put him back. So it's like, the judge is like, all right, he did a thousand violent crimes, Ronnie, Vinny, millions of dollars, da-da-da. One of the biggest mob cases for our time. Take care.

Starting point is 00:59:54 Go home. Time served. Walk out the door. Just walk out. That's it. I see like elite. He goes, just go. Yeah, you're free.

Starting point is 01:00:01 That's it. That was it. Yeah, just like that. I was, like, bugged out because I just been serving time, and now I'm just going to walk right out of the door. What did you think, you know, I thought I was going to get to 10. What did you think was fair?

Starting point is 01:00:15 Like, what did you think, like, if this is what, if I get this or less, that's fair. I would be happy with, like, eight years. I would have been okay with that. Like, I had to serve another year. I understood that, you know what I'm saying? Because the excessive amounts of, I confess to 17 shootings.

Starting point is 01:00:26 Right. At 17 shootings. That's a lot. I had, like, over 100-something on robberies. Home invasions, arsons, assault, conspiracy, to murder, you name it. I had it. It wasn't a crime I didn't have except for rape. And, you know, that, that bullshit.

Starting point is 01:00:38 Everything else I had. Arson, you need, I had a, the last show it, I had a laundry list of arsons. Right. Like a laundry list. So it was like, all right, if I get eight years, seven years, I'd be happy with that. I got to serve, like, another eight, nine months. And, but they told me, like, the week before I went to get sentenced, like, oh, tell your family to bring your clothes with you. Bring clothes with them.

Starting point is 01:01:00 I was like, I guess I'm going. home. Right. You know what I'm saying? And they were right. I walked out the door. Where were you at that time? Ferrington. Okay. And they brought me down to MCC to get sentenced. But Farrington is the witness protection? Yeah. It's a regular jail, but there's a unit for us. Okay. Okay. So there's three different units. There's all different units. So I had to get brought down from Jersey to Manhattan to get sentenced. So they put you in MCC. That's where I was with El M.O's son, Henry. Right. We talked about, I was with Henry there until I got sentenced. I was going for like 10 days. They bring you down like two weeks before you get sentenced. And then I was in, uh, MCC, there's only seven of us. There's only seven

Starting point is 01:01:33 people in the whole unit. It's a floor. An MCC. It's just our unit. We have a special unit. They don't have it no more. And I'm on the floor with him, me, Henry, and like five other dudes. So when you leave there, you're saying you're in witness protection. When you leave there, did you go into witness protection? No, I went right back home. Yeah. I went right back to Howard Beach. I was living in Howard Beach again. Were you concerned? No. You weren't. concerned, wait a minute, come on, you're not concerned at all. Somebody's going to, somebody's going to drive by. Not this era.

Starting point is 01:02:02 No? No, maybe 30 years ago. I was the bad guy. You know what I'm saying? I knew they didn't have shooters no more. I was the last shooting done for my family was for me in 2012 in my neighborhood. Okay. Think about that.

Starting point is 01:02:14 There's no more violence. Look, the murder was taken out of the mob. I say this on all my podcast. I took advantage of the time. I knew no, I was a vicious guy in the street. And I'm not bragging about it, but I was that guy. I was bad dude, you know? I walk it to your store in broad daylight.

Starting point is 01:02:30 I'll beat you in your store in front of people. I had that reputation of broad daylight violence, vicious guy. I worked for powerful people, but I was vicious on my own. You mean to tell me just because I cooperated, oh, now Gene's lunch meat? No, you're not going to just walk up to me and say what you want. You know what I'm saying? You got to be that guy. And I know who the guys are that would do that to me.

Starting point is 01:02:48 And most of them are deader in jail. Right. So I'm walking out to a bunch of guppies that never shot a cap gun. You think I'm worried? I did more violence than one month. These kids did combining their life. I kidnap people who zip tied

Starting point is 01:02:59 and put them in trunks these guys never did nothing in their lives just think I'm worried about them I'm laughing right they're worried about seeing me

Starting point is 01:03:05 than I am seeing them because they don't know what I'm gonna do I was a fly off the handle an explosive guy I was a hothead so you're not gonna just come to be go

Starting point is 01:03:10 oh get the fuck out of it you gotta be that guy I know who's gonna move on me I was walking in my neighborhood again walking in the neighborhood again how many how many shorts

Starting point is 01:03:19 do you think he just gave us at what point did you decide that you were going to cooperate and like what was the mental struggle? Like, was there ever a mental struggle of, I'm not going to, okay, you know what, I am going to?

Starting point is 01:03:33 So if my boss would have helped me and paid my lawyer, I would have felt like a piece of shit cooperating. But because the way he left me and how I got left and how things went down, I did it with smile. You know what I mean? I didn't like the way it was done. So if he would have actually did the right thing by me and stood by me, I'd be sitting in a penitentiary somewhere right now,

Starting point is 01:03:49 telling wall stories. So for me, it was when they screamed Secret Service, get on the ground. But you weren't important. of an organization. No. You just doing, listen, and everybody's already

Starting point is 01:03:59 cooperated against me. You're not even considered a rat to me. I'm being real at you. You're a bunch of pencil pushes. You're not fucking like industry,

Starting point is 01:04:09 baseball bat people. You're cooperating against corporate people. It's not even considered being a rat. Keep in mind that the first time I got in trouble, the first time I got in trouble,

Starting point is 01:04:17 I give my lawyer is 75 grand. He says, listen, you haven't been indicted yet. Like someone wore a wire on you. They're asking, they're going to indict you. He goes,

Starting point is 01:04:25 but at this point, he said, if you go into your office and get me like 10 of your most egregious files from your mortgage brokers, bring them here, explain what's going on. He said, I'll get the whole thing. You're not, I'll keep you from being indicted. You could just go away. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:04:40 And they'll go after them. He's like, you'll cooperate against them. It's pre-trial intervention, right? And I went, I'm not going to do that. But of course, when I got in trouble, all those same people cooperated. So at that point, I realize if I get caught, I'm cooperated. I know. I know in the gangster life, he's still going to go.

Starting point is 01:04:56 Oh, he's a rap, but in actual actuality, you weren't a part of a criminal organization. You're not a promise anybody anything. No, I'm saying. You were a fucking guy about, you know, stealing money. Like, it's like the Sam Bakeman kind of shit. You know what I'm saying? Like, you're not really a cooperator to me. It's like, you're all telling on each other to get out.

Starting point is 01:05:10 You know what I'm saying? With us, we vow to not ever do this. You know, our code. I have it on my arm. You know what I'm saying? Like, I was all big on that shit. I'm a sellout if you want to break it down. But I don't look at it like that because they sold me out.

Starting point is 01:05:24 So that's how I break it down. me for dead. I was one doing all the work. You know what I'm saying? So in my brain, I feel like I got fucking fucked over. Right. You know what I'm saying? Oh, don't worry about Gene. He'll be right. He could do 30 years. Oh, don't listen, don't worry. I feel the same way. Like I don't, I don't have any fucking kill. I can give a fuck. If so, because people always ask it, you know, but like I says, and I'm not bullshit in you, I get thousands of DMs. People that love me. You know, I feel bad that I'm boxing his kid. You know, he's getting death threats and his DMs. I'm like, bro, chill out. It's just boxing. Like, they're fucking giving him death threats.

Starting point is 01:05:56 You know, people love me. Like, you know, a lot of people really, really like me. A lot of people don't like me, but it's like, I'm not a bad person. You know, when you get to know me, I'm a cool dude. I'm down the earth. I'm not like, I'm not what you think I am. You know what I'm saying? I'm not like just mean guy walking around, just murder one face all day.

Starting point is 01:06:10 I was never like that. But when it's time to get busy, I get busy. That's all it was. You know what I'm saying? When it came to my organization and they wanted me to do something, it's getting done. You could count you less. If they had me on you, I'm getting you. Like there's no way from much about it.

Starting point is 01:06:22 I'll hunt you down. You only know I'm hunting you until I get you. You know what I'm saying? So that's why I was such a good asset to him. But when I went to jail, where are you? Yeah, well, that's the whole thing. Everybody always thinks that like the whole or the street code, whatever, is they're always like, yeah, man, keep your mouth shut. Well, wait, but there's a whole bunch of shit that goes along with that that you forgot.

Starting point is 01:06:40 Right. Like, you're supposed to put money on my books. You're supposed to take care of my family. They're not doing that. No, no, no. All that is thrown aside, but you've got to keep your mouth shut. Yeah. Fuck yourself.

Starting point is 01:06:48 I'm not going to. Listen, I live a great life. You know what I'm saying? I don't give a fuck. What am I standing up for? The organization's dead. These guys ain't busting grapes. The guys that are in charge right now

Starting point is 01:06:56 and never even been in fist fights. They were carrying John Sr.'s laundry. They just made it because they never got indicted. You know, we respects these guys no more. There's no real serious guys out there like, bro, when we used to wake up, and I'm not bullshitting you. When I was in the early 2000 starting off, all we did was plot every day.

Starting point is 01:07:10 We go to social clubs, how we make money today, who we robbing, who we extorting. That's gangsters. That's being in the mafia. Not, oh, hey, I'm going to go sip a drink at a social club and wear a suit. That's not a gangster. When we were in that gangster life, we were plotting every day.

Starting point is 01:07:24 Lone shark in sports, who owes money, debt lips, go beat this guy, go this, do we got to deal with this guy? Let's make money. Let's rob this. I got a score. That's living the gangster life. Yeah, it's Goodfell. And Goodfellers start the whole thing. I live that life.

Starting point is 01:07:38 I got the tail end of it. This new life they live, they don't even talk about shooting a squirrel with a cap gun. You know what I'm saying? I was just saying in the movies, like they're, you know, you notice they're all wearing nice clothes. Like in Godfather, you think they're wearing nice clothes. There's money under the table and shit, but you go to Goodfellas. No, no. They're burning places down.

Starting point is 01:07:56 Street thugs. They're shooting each other. That's gangsters. They're robbing fucking trucks. If those guys are still around, I probably would have stood up. You know what? Something to stand up for. These guys are really about their life.

Starting point is 01:08:04 I'm standing up for a guy that won't fucking schedule three years. Never even been in the jail before. You know what I've been in prison my whole life. I lived that gangster life for real. That's why. Why do you think my books are by cell? Why? Because I can dance good?

Starting point is 01:08:15 Well, you know, I'm a good dancer. Oh, they like Gene. Yeah, recruiting to be an enforcer because he could break dance. You know what I'm saying? Like, common sense. I was a bad guy. You know what I'm saying? And that's why where I am today.

Starting point is 01:08:25 And that's why I'm so popular today. Because they know I'm real. I was genuine. I really did this stuff. You got guys coming on the show talking about, oh, my friend did this. I did it. That's the difference. Not, oh, I was there when my friend shot somebody.

Starting point is 01:08:38 I did it. You understand? So that's the difference between me and all these other ex-mob guys. And that's how I always break it down. I did it. I'm the one pulling triggers. I'm the one sitting on you. I'm the one kidnapping.

Starting point is 01:08:48 you. Not while six blocks down with a CB going, oh, he got them. You know what I'm saying? Right. So that's why I break it down. That's why I'm so popular. And that's why, you know, I'm still going to this day. Right now me and you. You're going to get, you know, 70,000 views on this, bro. What's the last one at? You know, it's funny? The last one we did when you were walking out the door, you looked at me, you go, how many, how many subs you got? And at the time I had like 100,000 or something. And you go, you'll get 200,000 on this. And I thought, this fucking guy. Listen, within like three months it hit 200,000. And I thought, listen, if you go, listen, if you go, I remember my friend tell me,

Starting point is 01:09:23 because I have a lot of friends, people love me in Florida. And I get a message from my girlfriend. He goes, Gene, you know I go on the podcast and goes, your top view on all their podcasts. Every show you do with a podcast is their top views. That's why I keep fucking telling you. Why aren't you running a fucking podcast? No, I don't want to, you know, I don't like it because I don't want to get burnt out.

Starting point is 01:09:38 I like doing it like this. I'll come on every once in a while and people get excited about it. And I got new things to talk about when these mob guys, what they do is that if they go every day, they're burnt out. The only one that won't get burnt out is Sammy and Mike because they're like on a different level, but all the other ones are burnt out. Yeah, but you don't have to talk. Right.

Starting point is 01:09:54 If you're doing my job, you could sit here and this is actually what's supposed to be, I'm supposed to be talking to and I've talked maybe 15% of the time. Right. So I'm saying if you're interviewing someone else, you don't have to say anything. You go, so where you're born? And if you're lucky, you don't say anything else until the end when you go, wow, I appreciate you coming by. That's a, you could get athletes.

Starting point is 01:10:12 I mean, I have so many connects where I just, I don't know. I was just, I think because I was making so much money in the last, like, I got rich real quick. Right. And then blew it all. So what happens when you get money. So I got rich real quick. And I was making like, like, I'm talking about like crazy money. Not like 20,000 in a month.

Starting point is 01:10:30 I'm talking about crazy. And then what happened was I just went crazy. So I didn't give a fuck about podcasts and that stuff. I was just bowling and I control and going nuts for like the last eight months. And now, you know, I'm coming back to life and I'm going to do it again. But now I'm not going to blow it all. You know what I'm saying? You know, you know, buying McLaren's hummus, you know, just going crazy.

Starting point is 01:10:48 And, you know, I, you know, spending $60,000 on vacations, you know, I just went nuts. And, you know, now I have to tone it down and come back and get rich again and not do that. You know what I mean? This, listen, building a channel is slow. Yeah. But once the money hits and it starts coming in, there are guys making hundreds of thousands of dollars. I know them all. Right.

Starting point is 01:11:08 So now, granted, it takes a year or two to get there, admittedly, and it's depressing as fuck all. You know the Asian kid I went on Sean Kelly? The Toll Asian? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's making about 200,000 a month. Yeah. Vilat TV? Motherfucker.

Starting point is 01:11:20 Valad TV? About the same. Yeah. No, I'm being honest. I know the podcast that make that kind of money. Sean Kelly's a... I know. I just did Sean Kelly.

Starting point is 01:11:28 I just had that conversation with him. He makes about $200 a month. I know for a fact. He told me himself. I'm cool with Sean. He makes about $200 a month on fucking YouTube. Why would you ever want to go to school? It kills school.

Starting point is 01:11:39 I mean... I'll become famous on YouTube. Look at that kid that other kid. And they have popular shows. They're making, like, doing weird shit eating stuff. They're making fucking a couple hundred grand a month on YouTube. All you have to do is interview people and people would want to be interviewed by... I'm probably in the works.

Starting point is 01:11:55 He could run this fucking thing. He wants to. He wants to. My buddy wants to do it. I think we're going to do it. You know, and people... He doesn't even have shirt sleeves. No. People just want me on the air.

Starting point is 01:12:04 They love me. You know what I'm saying? They call me... Secret Service it says. So, like, Like I says, people just want me to talk. Even sports like me to talk about. I'm debating on it.

Starting point is 01:12:18 I don't know because, like I says, my other things are still in the works. You know what I mean? So I don't want to. Right. I have retirement plans hopefully happening. So that's all. And then I'll come see you every once in a while. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:12:28 And bullshit. Why do you think the people in the comments that aren't affiliated with the life at all care whether or not you cooperate? Well, it's not. It's just a trolling. They just having fun. It's the truth. Because a lot of guys that even troll when I answer them, you know what they say,

Starting point is 01:12:39 oh shit. I didn't know you really answer people. Yeah. Yo, bro. I'm sorry, man. I love your stuff. I get that all the time. They're like, oh, shit, that's really Gene Borrello?

Starting point is 01:12:48 So it's like, it's just having fun, you know what I'm saying? So you're doing a celebrity boxing? Yeah, I'm supposed to do celebrity boxing. Yeah, in Philly. I'm going to Philly to fight this jerk off, Joey Milino's guy, whatever. It's supposed to happen in April or May. We'll see what happens. I'm supposed to be getting trained by professional fighters.

Starting point is 01:13:07 And let's see what's up. You know, the guy's not really a great fighter. You know what I'm saying? I'm not really worried about it. Is it the, is it just one bite or is there multiple? Well, my goal is to call somebody out after that fight. After I beat this guy, I'll call out John Guy the third who just fought Mayweather and cannot box to save his life. He's a UFC fighter.

Starting point is 01:13:25 And we hate each other. Me and the family, they sued me for $20 million on the front page of the paper. I would love to do it. You know what I mean? Love to do it. So that would be cool. You got anything else? I mean, I had some questions, but they're more so about the cooperation since we've kind of moved on that.

Starting point is 01:13:41 Let's see. So when you're starting to cooperate, like when you sit down at that table, do they just say, all right, tell us everything? Or do they say, I'm curious about this specific thing. They don't do that. You got to start from when you're a kid. They want to know your whole life story. They want to know your upbringing, your family, your mom, your dad, names, uncles, cousins.

Starting point is 01:14:00 They want to know everything about you so they could learn about you. And also, you understand some. At the end of the day, they want to make you feel comfortable. And you learn this from the agents because me and the agents got very friendly. And they started telling me a lot of their tactics and tricks, which, you know, you just become friends of people. They says, we want to make you comfortable and they actually want to relate with you. So they'll actually want to know what TV shows you like. And they'll go home and study what you like.

Starting point is 01:14:20 I swear to God. If they really need you and you're a big cooperator, they'll go home and watch the TV show that you like just so they can relate and talk to you. That's how much they get into it. What are some other things that they do, do you know? Do you remember? Like a lot of their tactics, they all have group chats. So as you're talking, they already know the answer. So when you lie to them, they'll group chat and they say, okay, do that again.

Starting point is 01:14:42 What are you talking about? Okay, look. You know, like, when the government locks you up, it's because usually you would organize crime, you've been investigated for seven years, six years, five years. The case been going on since 2012. They got you in 2017. They know everything. They have a laundry list of evidence.

Starting point is 01:14:58 And you're confirming everything. And when you say something wrong and they know it's wrong, you'll see them group chat. They have like a whole little click. Do they also text in. And they'll go, all right, listen. So, and they'll come back to that question. And they keep asking that question because they know you're not telling the truth. Oh, yeah.

Starting point is 01:15:14 When you went to the witness protection unit, yeah. Did you have to come up for yourself, like your own kind of fake backstory? No. So everybody in there's a cooperator in the Witsack unit. And the CEOs are not allowed to know your name. They go by your initials. Only the people in the front can know your actual name. And do the actual inmates be like, hey, okay, this is, do you guys kind of say you really are?

Starting point is 01:15:34 It's all hype. It's all bullshit. Even the CEOs know your real name, but they have to, they call, but when they do, say, visit, GB, only the people in the front office, the unit managers can know your actual name. They know everything about your life. But you've been on the paper, in the front page of the page. Right, right. So, most, like, when I did Vlaad TV, I was getting phone calls that the CEOs were showing everybody in the unit. Yo, Gene, because I just left the unit.

Starting point is 01:15:55 Right. And I did Vlai TV. It's like a huge podcast. I didn't know that. You know what I'm saying? I just walked out of fucking jail six years. I know what YouTube is. And Johnny Eli puts me on Vlad and the Floreshwin, Margarito.

Starting point is 01:16:05 they all will contact him like, you know, people that I was in the, you know, that we knew each other. And his wife contacted me. And they're all in the unit laughing that the CEO is showing you on Vlad TV. So it's like, you know, they're in the units, but they're all still, you know, everyone's still talking about and everything. If you know it was bigger, would you to grow not your beard? Huh? If it was no, if you knew the podcast was bigger, would you to grow not your beard before you went on? Yes.

Starting point is 01:16:26 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When I saw that thumb there, I didn't even recognize it. I'll be honest with you. I just did, I just did, um, uh, what was it, 90 days in the hole. I was 168 pounds. I haven't seen the sun in three months.

Starting point is 01:16:39 You know what I'm saying? I was all fucked up. So like, how soon after you released three weeks? Three weeks. Three weeks. Johnny and I threw me on there three weeks.

Starting point is 01:16:47 And I had no idea how big it is. And they're like, bro, do you understand what you're going on? I was like, no. He's like, the biggest podcast in the country.

Starting point is 01:16:52 I'm like, this guy don't tell me this. I'm fucking look like a crackhead. You know what I'm saying? I was all cracked out. And then when I got to do it with him again, you know, we did a great try.

Starting point is 01:17:01 I beat out everybody on my list, which was all actor, celebrities and everything, I beat all of them in numbers. My main podcast did like $340,000. I beat out the famous comedians, a bunch of famous people. Did Vlad? Because I did Vlad. Did he show up?

Starting point is 01:17:14 Was he there in person? Oh, with me. Yeah, he was down in person. Yeah, see the motherfucker. Yeah, he sat with me with the, I got a fucking FaceTime on a fucking pad and shit. He sat with me in person. We had a whole team there because I was doing that. I did no jumper.

Starting point is 01:17:27 I did a whole bunch of, I did the whole run out there with me and the Aralada. We did soft white underbelly. He wanted me to keep coming on. he's like, Bob, pay you more money. Just come to do another one. I'm like, bro, how many? Let me do five episodes. This guy talking about things.

Starting point is 01:17:40 It was cool, man, you know? But, um... Is that soft white underbell? Soapy. Soapy underbelly. Yeah, Mark. Yeah, Mark's cool. And, um, but I was trying to get to Joe Rogan, you know, but, um, it's hard to get

Starting point is 01:17:52 to him, you know what I'm saying? But listen, I literally know. Wait, wait, I had Deshawn Watson, Watson, the football player. The Sean Watson. I know who it is. Very famous football player. His manager is my friend. Okay.

Starting point is 01:18:01 Brian, great guy. He messages Joe, Rogan all time. He goes, you have to put this kid on. This guy's the manager of huge athletes. He loves me. He's like, you have to put, he shows me. He messages Joe Rogan all the time. You have to put Gene Brown on. He's the best. But, you know, a lot of people try to get to him. He's more like, he doesn't do stories. He's more like just talking. You know what I'm saying? You know what I mean? So it's like, I'm into all the stuff that he talks about. So Rogan actually talked about watching South Wide Underbelly and watching my episode on one of his

Starting point is 01:18:29 thing talks about it. He's had Mark on. Yeah. I know of three people, really I know of four. And the one guy just, I don't want to say, but that have all said, like, hey, there's this guy, Matt Cox, former column, you ought to have them on. And the last, and all of them, he's like, yeah, yeah, I know who he is. Yeah, yeah. Oh, okay, yeah, I'll think about it. He's just not interesting. Like, he's just, like, and everybody's like, bro, not for everybody.

Starting point is 01:18:51 No, no, like, he's just so big. He's, you know, he's probably so booked up. Yeah, and. He's probably so booked up. It's like, you know, Lucas come on and show A-List actors and shit like that. It's like, to get to us, it's like. And it's just like what you said, like, he's, like, he's. interested in, like, my, aliens and things.

Starting point is 01:19:06 Well, my, you know, my claim to fame is I've got a great story. But I'm not like this, I'm not like a comedian that is funny in anything they talk about. Like, like you said, it's not a conversation with me. It's like, hey, here's my story. So, so I can see how him thinking, okay, you're going to sit down on what, tell your story for four hours. Yeah, he's not doing that. He don't do that.

Starting point is 01:19:25 He don't do that. He's going to want to sit down and talk about this life, what's going on and things like that, which I could do with him, you know, I'm just hoping that. Yeah, I could do it too. Yeah, I want, I want, I want. I want just to get on him. He's the only podcast I basically didn't do. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:19:37 You know what I'm saying? That's the only one. And my buddies keep reaching out. They want me on there. And supposedly one guy says, yo, he would definitely have you on, like when I knew him,

Starting point is 01:19:46 but it never happened, you know? Yeah. No, I, I hear you. Did you have the option to go in witness protection when you're leaving? Yeah, I told them for what?

Starting point is 01:19:56 Who am I, who you protected me from? I was to be. Plus you got to have to behave. No, but I'm saying, I told him, I says, who you protect me from. I says, when they needed somebody shot, they called me. What are you protected me from? Who are you protecting me from?

Starting point is 01:20:10 These guys were all washed up. I said, fuck, you protected me from. You know what I'm saying? You gave a deal to the devil. So the guys that have the opportunity to cooperate and don't, when they're facing, let's say, a large amount of time, five, ten plus years, why do you think they do not? If you're cooperating over ten years or five years,

Starting point is 01:20:28 you should never be in the street, to be honest with you. If you're going to be a cooperate, you said five, to 10 years. Not. Usually guys that I know that are cooperating. Over five to 10. No, at 20, 30s and 40s, most people that I was with, like, you have to be throwing the book at us. You know what I'm saying?

Starting point is 01:20:42 Or like, real time. 10 years, I would have fucking, you never meet me. 20 years, you never meet me. I would, I would be happy to come home at 46 years old. You know what I'm saying? That wasn't my ballpark. You know what I'm saying? So it's like anybody that was cooperating over anything other 10 years or 15 years,

Starting point is 01:20:58 you should, you had no business in the street. Did you have relationships that, like, after you got out? that people are just like, I'm not talking to you anymore? Just the mob guys. Yeah. You know, I was getting met. I still talk to people a lot of where I'm from. You know, they don't really give a fuck because they know it's all a joke.

Starting point is 01:21:13 You know what I'm saying? A lot of the guys that didn't cooperate with facing three years, bro. Like, I'm a stand-up guy. I got that in the hole, bro. I got three years in a bathroom. Like, you're going to sit here and tell me you stood up because you did 24 months. You don't know where anyone's at until they're facing real time. You know what I'm saying?

Starting point is 01:21:27 Oh, I'm standing the guy that's the three years. Bro, who the fuck can't do? My mother could do three years. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, that's nothing impressive. When you sit down, you take a 20 piece, 25 piece, and you hold it down, you know, that guy's legit, I'm saying? And even sometimes they'll hold that down, but they won't hold down 40.

Starting point is 01:21:40 You know, it's very weird. Yeah, yeah. You know what I'm saying? So you never know where anyone's at until they're facing, like, real time. You know what I mean? How much money did you blow over the last eight months? $800 and something thousand. How do you do that?

Starting point is 01:21:54 Cars, clothes, jewelry, vacations, partying, every day. Ridiculous. Yeah, that's how. I got a $100,000 wardrobe. I mean, I went crazy, yeah, you know. So, but I'll get it back, you know, had fun. You know, don't go to, you know, like I said, the places we were going are extremely expensive,

Starting point is 01:22:18 you know what I'm saying, and just different lifestyle. You know what I mean? It goes fast when you're living like that because you're not going to a dinner that cost $100. You're going to a dinner that cost $2,500. Right. You know what I'm saying? So it's just a whole different life, you know what I mean? So I, like I says, I've been wealthy before, broke,

Starting point is 01:22:32 wealthy, broke. I've did it three times. I'll be wealthy again because I have so many options. And then I won't blow it this time. That's it. Hopefully. Hopefully. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:22:43 Bro. Yeah. Jesus. Hey, you guys. I appreciate you watching. Do me a favor. Hit the subscribe button. Hit the bell so get notified of videos like this.

Starting point is 01:22:51 Also, check the description box. We're going to leave all of Gene's social media links. So check those out. Follow him. yell at him in the comments, call him names, whatever, he doesn't mind. So I really appreciate you guys watching. Thank you very much. See you.

Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - Gene Borrello Breaks Silence on Cooperating With the Feds | Mob Soldier Turned Witness

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