Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - Global Smuggler Caught by NYC Cop | Insane True Crime Story

Episode Date: April 30, 2025

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If you don't come with our money, your family, you, you're all gone. You don't understand the reach we have. We're all over the world. And if you hit the piece of wood just right on a corner, it would open. And inside it was a heat-sealed plastic container with one ounce of 95 to 97% pure he. You can make about 100,000 off it. I'm sending you a package with 20 to 25 statues three times a week. You start doing a math.

That's a lot of money. This kid was hooked up. with the main source of supply of the drugs who was in Thailand. And he was the guy that was going to cooperate. And we get driven up to North Hong Kong, to near the China border, to a housing project. I'm unarmed. He's unarmed.

Walk into the building, takes us up. On the way up, I tell Keith in the elevator, Keith, I got a kid at home and a pregnant wife. No matter what happens here, we're getting out of here. I don't care if I have to throw somebody out of window, stomp on their throat, I'm getting out of here. You understand that? went upstairs turn the recorder on rang the bell

guy opens the door with a gun in his waistband I was like I'm fucked I'm dead I'm dead I'm in the middle of nowhere they're never going to find my body Hey this is Matt Cox And I am here with Dan Murphy And we just met him at PodFet No wait we met him at we're at crime con

And we just met him at crime con I'm not even to redo that We just met Dan at CrimeCon, and he is the co-host of a podcast called Gold Shield with Tom Smith. And he is a retired New York City detective. Detective. I'm getting so much right. And we're going to hear his story. So check out the interview. Like nobody expects me to be professional.

It's fine. We leave in all kinds of flubs because it's like, hey, this is not slick. It's just a couple of knock on. You want to see professional. Get Netflix. Yeah. This is YouTube. It's free.

You're on YouTube. Yeah. So. You see, the me or some guy lighting up his farts. Which one do you want to watch? I mean. So anyway. Yeah.

Were you, let's start at the beginning. Yeah. Were you born in New York? Yeah, I was born in Queens. Okay. Were your parents in law enforcement? No. My father was a Marine.

He did eight years in Marine Corps, a Korean War veteran, and my mother was a secretary. Both of them were the parents, with the children of Irish immigrants. And my father actually didn't finish high school until I was about six. When he got out of the Marines, he finally went back to finish high school. He joined at 17 to go fight in a war because his brother was a Marine also, and he was shot over in Korea and missing in action. And so he just jumped up and ran to the recruiting station. And that's how it was back in those days. right 50s but um that's back when people love their country yeah thank you amen but he um he instilled

a lot of good things to me my uncle was a member of the new york city police department he was very influential in my life as a matter of fact uh my father was a serious alcoholic and we had a ruptured i'll call it family life and as a result i spent a lot of time my aunt and uncle's house in brooklyn and he was a a great great guy he did end up in 39 years with the police department and he knew everybody and I didn't really even think I wanted to go into it but he was just such a positive influence

and when I was about 18 I had no idea what I was doing I went to Queens College took communications classes I had a radio show I thought that would be something fun to do and thought you had a radio show? I mean you had a radio show in college

I was a DJ played records knucklehead thinking I could be a broadcaster with this accent right I used doing You know, the plural of you is U's in my neighborhood. So I was going to be on the radio, yeah. Yeah, how's you doing? This is a country station in Nebraska.

Nice to meet you. Nobody was going to listen to me. I realized soon that my career in radio was going to go up and down and be done in an hour. So I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I remember being at a family barbecue where my uncle said, why don't you take the police test? It's 1982. They're given a test. And I was like, police test.

I hadn't thought about it. I really didn't. I had no idea what I wanted to do. So I ended up taking a test, doing very well on it, got hired, and really liked it. It was fun. To me, it was an adventure. It was exciting. New York City in 1984, when I got hired, was, you know, a city, I out of control.

Right. Subways were a mess, drugs everywhere. So to me, that was my adventure. It was excitement. I liked it. It was a lot of fun. Okay. Did you, I mean, did you graduate college?

Well, I, well, I finished high school. school, went to Queens College for a couple of years. I ended up getting hired from the police department when I was 21 before I finished. I end up going back to get my degree. Okay. So you started as what, like a just a patrolman. Yeah, that's why you all start. You do your six months in the academy and you learn all the basics and then you come out and I was assigned to what is now a trendy area, Bushwick, Williamsburg, section, Greenpoint and Brooklyn, you know, lofts are all worth money. But back in 1984, I can describe it as a heroin-infested shithole, if I'm allowed to say shithole on your podcast, because that's what it was. It was a dump. You walk down the street, you're stepping on

the envelopes and then the glass scenes and the needles and stuff and junkies hanging out like this in the hallway. It was just that kind of a place. Right. So I learned a lot very quickly. How long were you, you know, a patrolman? Well, I did my six months training there and then I got assigned to a precinct, and that was the West Harlem, 30th precinct, which was at the time, very busy little shop, and went from there, another patrol unit. I did about three and a half, four years in uniform before I went to what's called the Manhattan Warrant Squad, and that's looking for fugitives. So I was looking for felons, people who had skipped bail, people who had jumped out on their

trial or whatever, and a lot of drug dealers, some murderers, people like that, but that was interesting work because now I'm doing detective kind of work, and I'm working in jeans, I'm dressed in any way I want to, waking people up at 6 o'clock in the morning in their beds and dragging them down to court, all kinds of crazy stuff. People hide. It's funny. I used to laugh. People say, oh, this guy went on the lamb.

Half the guys I look for went on the lamb like two blocks down. Right. Because that's their whole world, this little neighborhood. So I'm hiding in front of police in the next apartment building. It really didn't take a genius to find them. and I had people, I had two guys once in a refrigerator hiding from me. And I went in the apartment. The same refrigerator?

The two of them are. It was a big refrigerator. It was a big refrigerator and these two guys were small and they're holding each other and I heard something inside it and I opened it. I'm like, you guys would have died. You can't push open that door from the inside. It has that seal. And I'm like, you're welcome.

Number one. Number two, put your hands behind your back. You're under arrest. Is this just you or do you have a partner? No, with a partner. Oh, I was going to say that. Oh, yeah. No, no.

In New York City, you don't go hunting people who want it for. felonies by yourself. It's not a smart move. Right. But had a lot of great experiences with that. That was, my guy, that was fun. You want to hear an old story? Yeah. Funny, we're on a podcast. I'll tell you a story.

Guy that I work with had a warrant on a guy who skipped out during the middle of his trial. The trial was for robbing a bar and shooting the bartender in the face with a shotgun during the commission of the robbery. This guy's family put up a house. He sees it's going bad during the trial. He decides, you know, the wind is my place. I'm going to get out of here. He comes the next day.

He's supposed to be in the courtroom. The judge sees the defendant's gone. He says, yeah, warrant for him, get him now. So it came over to our office. Go find this guy. We're looking for him. We can't find him. He bolted town.

Well, my partner had to investigate everything he could. He looks through some really old paperwork in the docket files at the courthouse, and he finds a phone number associated with a family member in Connecticut. Picks up the phone, calls it. Who answers? Our hero. He says, yeah, this is detective, whatever. Listen, don't hang up.

Here's what happened in the case. And he's, he's, what? Here's what happened in the case. The bartender, the witness himself has now wanted. He bolted. He's not testifying. The judge is willing to get rid of this case if you'll come down and pay $250 fine for possession of the unlicensed shotgun on Monday morning at 9 o'clock with a money.

You got to get a money order. You get a pen? He's writing all this stuff down. Monday morning comes. We think he's not coming. Yeah, okay, be it, whatever. Monday morning comes, we had made an arrest at about 6.30, 7.30. We come down to the courthouse.

We had a special office there. We bring our guy in, and there's a guy sitting there wearing a tuxedo. Our hero went and got his hair, jerry curled, rented a tuxedo, and had green patent leather shoes on. He's sitting there waiting for us, and he's waving his money. I got my money order. What happened is during his trial, he was convicted in absentia and sentenced to 12 by 1⁄2 to 25 years. his lawyer couldn't get in touch him because he didn't have a number

so he didn't know so he believed our crap right he went and got a money order and showed up for court so we said excuse me one second we walked out in the hallway and pissed ourselves laughing went back in and said yeah

we'll just walk into the courtroom no problem so we took him back up to the courtroom and he's like yeah this is good we said listen it's procedure we just have to put cuffs on you okay no problem cuff him bring him in the courtroom

give the court paperwork to the court officer and said goodbye and ran from the courthouse because the second he found out, I'm sure he lost his mind. Your Honor, I have my $250 money order. I'm supposed to go free today. Judge, oh no.

That's that was happening. No, you owe the state 12 and a half to 25. Remanded, get on a bus. You're going upstate. How could you be that stupid? Mike, I still marvel at, but people believe what they want to believe, right? They hear what they want to hear.

We used to arrest people by appointment. You know what? come in at 3 o'clock on Monday. I just need to interview you. I need to get a statement from you. I understand you're at the scene of this fight. Somebody said it was a robbery. You might be a witness.

Maybe you can help me. I'm probably, I just want to close it out. If you come in, you should take 15 minutes of your time. Meanwhile, I got three people identifying the guy as doing the robbery. And I know we did it.

Right. Okay, good. So what does he think when I'm on the phone with him? Well, if they really were going to arrest me, they would have come and got me. Right. Maybe I can get out of this called hope. right maybe i can bullshit my way out of this i can walk out the door well knucklehead walks in the door

at three o'clock sit them down thanks for coming in i appreciate it uh i understand you're at the scene you saw this this fight go down and see yeah i was there what happened yeah this happened i happen okay great um do me favor come in this other room with me hold this piece of paper up in front of you with these other guys i swear to god and they're like okay they hold it up they're in the lineup they're like okay and they get picked out me a favor sit in the cell just sit in the cell for me close the cell door start typing up the arrest reports and the guy looks at just excuse me any other prisoners are sitting there am i under arrest they all start cracking up no we put innocent people in the cell you just got

identified in the lineup you put yourself at the scene which is all i needed you to do and now you're under arrest that's how it works man you tricked me yeah i did i'm allowed to yeah i was going to say the uh i love the well you know they're just the cops they can't like idea. What? Oh, yeah. Like if you're buying drugs or somebody in a narcotic situation. You have to tell me if you're a police officer. No, I'm not. Okay, we're good. Yeah, we're good. It's a let them believe that. It's funny. Right. I used to call them one-celled organisms. We had a lot of funny, a lot of funny times with people who are so stupid. Thank God they're stupid because honestly, it was, it was easier to get the stupid ones, but it was, it made for good laughs. We used to

ask them questions like, we'll do an IQ test, writing out the arrest report. IQ test, yeah. name three presidents. I probably had five people in my whole career that could name three presidents, Washington, Lincoln, and that other guy. Well, that guy we got now. They wouldn't know it. Because they're street people. They're very smart in what they do, but they don't know anything about the real world. Do you ever see that guy that goes to New York City and he does TikToks?

And he stops for random people. And he's like, hey, can, you know, how many, you know, how many states are there? Yeah. And they're like, uh, man, I'm not good with that. And they're like, okay, just guess. And they'll be like, 30. And he's like, right, right. Well, there are 30, but there's 20 more.

Partially right. They just, this one after another. Can you tell me what country the Great Wall of China is in? Man, I don't know. Great Wall of China. And they'll say Great Wall of China. I don't know. It's like, so.

Or who's the, what, or who, you know, who is what? the queen of England, and they're like, I don't know. What queen is she the country of? Yeah, yeah. I don't know. You can't make it up. I had a lot of fun with them. And one of the best questions was when we asked everybody, which is this, get ready now.

What's closer, Europe or the moon? And remember, you can see the moon. Right. Yeah. It's got to be the moon. I can't see no Europe. I can't see you ever from here. Yeah.

Oh, my God. I had a lot of fun with them. So, yeah, I worked in a warrant squad. That was fun. Learn how to do a lot of things like that. And then I went to narcotics. Now, in 1989, I'm working in Brooklyn North, which is the upper half of Brooklyn, which is Bedstuy, Bushwick, Williamsburg, Brownsville, East New York, tough territory,

Crown Heights. A lot of shootings, a lot of guns. It was probably the most homicide-ridden stretch of territory in America by far at that time. And so we did a lot of undercover buy-and-bust scenarios, a lot of cases, a lot of search warrants, with informants. And I really, really saw the drug problem more there than I ever did in any other place I worked because I was entrenched in it at how pervasive drugs were on what they were doing in the late 80s.

Crack had destroyed the fabric of most of New York City's neighborhoods. Heroin was making a comeback in many ways. It was crazy times, crazy, crazy times. It was not uncommon. You're writing around here. Shots going off. Not uncommon at all. And you don't even know what they're coming from, so you don't go crazy.

Well, how long were you, how long did you work that job before you were transferred? I was a couple of years of narcotics, so two years of narcotics, and then I went to a unit called Ossid, the Organized Crime Investigation Division. Stop. Do you know how fast you were going? I'm going to have to write you a ticket to my new movie, The Naked Gun. Liam Nieson. Buy your tickets now. And get a free Tilly Dog.

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to learn more. And this is a more thinking man's game. Is that something you wanted to do? Like, are they just come to you or do you apply? You had to apply and put in for it and it was not easy to get into. And I had some cases and things. I had actually helped catch Puerto Rico's Most Wanted Fugitive, who was a cop killer, who was killing people all throughout Bushwick.

I got an informant that gave him up and we lured him in. So that helped me and I ended up getting assigned there. It was a prestigious place to work. It was looked up to. And part of that assignment, part of that unit was mafia. cases, mafia crime families. The other part of it was a task, it was other parts, was the task

force with the DEA, which I was in. So I started working on Southeast Asian heroin cases, and I knew nothing about that, so it was a big education. Looking like me, yeah, I'm a natural to work Asian cases. But it was, it was fascinating. I learned a lot there, and that's where

I started my first federal RICO case, which branched, it became a drug case that branched into a RICO case. And that was something we had chatted about earlier. This is a two and a half year investigation that was an eye-opener for me. It started with street level stuff. Guys getting pop. We were out there. Our mission is find Southeast Asian heroin, the best heroin in the world, 95, 97% pure. They call it China White. Number four, they call it over there. And it's sold in units as opposed to

kilos and it's more expensive and you can step on it many more times. And it just was, Not as easy to find as your traditional run-of-the-mill heroin and coke and stuff like that. So we were trying to find direct sources of supply. That's what the DEA works on. So I started talking to some people, letting people in the police department know, hey, detectives, I know. This is what I'm looking for. If you get any trace of this, let me know. And we developed a few sources of information.

What started it was there was a group of four guys. And there's a prison in upstate Manhattan called Bear Hill Correction. Correctional, upstate New York, I mean state, up near Canada, Bear Hill Correctional. And in Bear Hill Correctional, four guys who were housed together became very close friends, and then some. One of them was a, I think he was, I think he was Lucchese. Another one was an Asian guy. Another one was a member of the White Tigers gang who was Filipino. And the other one was an Italian guy from the Bronx who was involved in heroin drugs for years with his brother.

they all became very close. The Asian guy, upon his release, was going to be deported back over to Asia. So he told his three good friends, I'm going to make you all rich. When I get out of here, I'm going back and I have a global contact. I'm going to be working in a Thailand-based global heroin operation. And I'm going to be sending you guys packages with the best stuff in the world. And he did. He was sending them in the mail, these boxes with these beautiful wooden statues in them.

Very light balsa wood, painted everything. And if you hit the piece of wood just right on a corner, it would open. And inside it was a heat sealed plastic container with one ounce of 95 to 97% pure heroin. Which if I saw at the time, if I'm a dealer, I sell you that one ounce, it was $7,000. Okay. You can make about $100,000 off it when you step on it and cut it up. Right. So I'm sending you a package with 20 to 25 statues three times a week.

week. You start doing a math. That's a lot of money. So we tapped into this and it ended up taking us a couple of these guys cooperated. I mean, some of the craziness. How do you, I mean, how do you track that down? Like, I mean, this is a guy, you're saying that he's mailing it back. They're, they're cutting it up. They're distributing it. I'm like, do you end up catching a low level drug dealer? And then you get him to give you the guy above him. Like, what that. Here's what happened, actually. A member of the narcotics division in the Bronx had an informant who turned them on to a guy who was receiving heroin in the mail. Okay. This guy I know from my neighborhood. All right, great. They deal with the U.S. Postal

Inspection Service, and they do what's called a mail cover. This guy's address is such and such. Any packages that come here, take a look at. Well, U.S. Customs and the U.S. Postal inspectors can open any package they want and check it out. So they checked out a package. Sure enough, lot of stuff in it. And they did what's called a controlled delivery. Postal inspector pretends to be a postal carrier, knocks on the door. Hey, you're waiting for this package? Yeah, great. Sign here. And you get what's called an anticipatory search warrant, which means I'm anticipating when he gets this package. He's going to open it up in a minute or two. And we were allowed to hit, if he accepts the package, we can hit the warrant. Right. So this one knucklehead accepted a

package. They hit the warrant. They grabbed him. It turned out to be Asian heroin. They gave us a call. Now this guy cooperates because he's looking at the rest of his life in prison. And so he comes in and he cooperates, and he is a character, to say the least. He thinks he's a big time mobster, but in reality, he's kind of a wimp. He tried to line to us a couple of times. That doesn't work in federal court. And he lived a very interesting lifestyle. I'll just leave it at that.

But he, we ended up then getting the Italian guy who was related to Lucases, who was funny as hell. A little bit about Mikey. Oh, I won't say his last name. He's probably dead. Mikey, when we grabbed him, he took off from us and we had to chase him in the car. And when we finally get him out of the car, he fights. So we throw him down on the ground and we cuff him and stuff. And he's like, what's with the guerrilla tactics?

What didn't you just call my lawyer? I would have come in like a gentleman. You're a knucklehead. Right. What do you think? Paul Castellano, you're just some moron. Call my lawyer? No, we're not calling your lawyer.

And so, Mikey. gets brought down, I interview Mikey, and I tell him, you know, you're looking at the rest of your life in prison. I don't give it to him. I don't give nobody up. I'm the last fucking Viking. I don't cooperate with nobody. He's got that rough, gravelly voice. He's a steroid guy. He's a heroin user, too. And he's crazy. So we're sitting with him, okay, FBI wants to talk to him because they want to know about, you want to cooperate and help yourself, tell about your family. Fuck you. All this kind of stuff. Tough guy. Well, at one point, I'm sitting with Mikey, and it turns out the other informants had given us quite a bit of information about Mikey. Right.

Mikey, it seems, when he was in prison, used to like to wear the Catholic school girl dress, skirt, uniform. That was his role. We'll call it their extracurricular activities in prison. So that was his role. He played the Catholic school girl. I had a Polaroid of him doing that. So I'm sitting in my interview, and I'm like, you sure you don't want to cooperate, Mike? You're sure.

You got nothing? I'm a, okay, great. We just hit your door. We got the drugs. We got the money. All right. Okay. What about that?

I slid the pole right in front of him. My wife knows I'm nuts. How nuts does she know you are, Mike? How nuts? Do you want this on an overhead in a federal courtroom? I don't cooperate with nobody. Okay. I'm done talking to you.

We take them down to the courthouse to process him. The next morning, I have to pull him out and bring him to federal probation, where he's got to be screened for eligibility for parole or bail and all out of this stuff. So bring him in, federal parole probation officer sits with me and Mike and says, okay, time for the urinalysis. We've got to test your pee in addition to all this other stuff. The three of us walk Mike into the bathroom. It's cold. It's wintertime Manhattan. Bathroom's cold. There's a urinal. Mike takes his steroid frame and puts it up in front of the urinal. We can't really see. Takes the scoop.

scoops it down into the water, scoops them up and hands it to us. And the probation officer takes it and goes, Detective, would you feel this? It's like 40-something degrees. Right. It was the water that was in the urinal sitting there. It's like almost freezing in that room. He says, really?

Really, Mike? This is what you want to give me? I said, Mike, God. Dead bodies that have been dead for 12 hours. The fluids in them are not that cold. Right. This is not your urine. You're calling me a fucking liar.

Yeah, I am. on you're a liar. You're a liar. We know what you did. Okay, no worries. Probation officer takes it, tests it, gets his report, goes into the courtroom. Mike's, Mike standing in front of the judge. Mike's family owns this house. He has this. He has this history of work and all this other stuff. And he failed his urinalysis for evidence of opioids. Mike stands up and goes, how the fuck did that happen? Right in the courtroom because he can't believe. Mike had the misfortune of dipping his cup into water in a urinal where the last guy through had heroin in his system. Right.

It wasn't even his. And the look on his face was shocked. The judge is screaming out and restraining him. I was cracking up in the back of the court. I couldn't believe it. You know, like, if you didn't have bad luck, he'd have no luck, Mike. So that's Mike's story. Mike ended up taking a plea, needless to say, he didn't want to go to trial.

But that case branched off where... Did he end up cooperating? He didn't cooperate. But he took a plea. He was happy to get a plea. He didn't cooperate with me, that's for sure. So we got those guys, and one of them was a leader of the White Tigers gang in Queens. And he was a Filipino guy.

He was born in Canada. His name was Chris. Chris was legitimately a sociopath and stone cold evil. And I met a lot of crazy people in my career in my life, but he was stone cold evil. For example, Chris, when we popped him, he decides to cooperate. Now, Chris is sniffing heroin and he's having some problems. He's like 22 years old and he's got his little crew and he's a tough guy. And the Chinese members at a white tiger's gang used his crew for enforcement stuff because Chris would do anything.

Shoot anybody, kill anybody, he can care less. And Chris comes in and cooperate and he's sitting there and he's all like dazed out from coming off heroin. he goes, you guys probably know all this anyway. And we're like, yeah, we know everything about you. We didn't. Poker face, right? I have no idea about your life except we just popped you in Queens. You're a moron.

That's all I know. All right. You know about the hit I took on the family? You know about the big press homicide in Midtown Manhattan? That was me. The big robbery that was all over the front pages. We had no idea. It was him.

And we're sitting there. Yep. We got it all. Went outside. We went outside. We're going, holy. couldn't keep up with all the crimes this guy had done. So this kid was hooked up with the main source of supply of the drugs who was in Thailand

because he was the guy who was in prison. Yeah. And he was the guy that was going to cooperate and try to work on helping us identify who else was receiving these drugs. He gave us all the bank accounts that the money was being wired back to all dummy accounts through shell corporations and Hong Kong and all other stuff. So the drug side of the case moved along at that rate because at the DEA, we wanted to identify the source of supply in Thailand and figure it out from there and stop it. So we got back to the source. We figured out who it was. It turns out this entire drug operation was being run from a prison in the mountains of Changrai Thailand.

And our guy was in prison. He got released here, got picked up over there and thrown into prison. But the prison itself was a drug operation. okay so it's like you gotta be kidding me i got pictures of the guy in chains and they take the chains off long enough for him to process the heroin and do all this it's like it's crazy so he turns us on to that we get involved in that we're investigating that we're looking at the accounts and we decide in order to get anybody extradited to america especially the main money launder the operation was run out of hong kong the main money launder and the main members of the organization

were Hong Kong based. The Hong Kong Crown Authority, this is before Hong Kong went back to China. Right. They demanded that we have an in-person meeting undercover capacity with these people, get them on tape, to confirm it's them before they will agree to extradite. He's in prison. But like I in Thailand, we couldn't touch. But the Hong Kong folks, we were able to stop it there. Oh, okay. We would have no luck with the Thai authorities trying to grab them and break that up in the mountains of Chang Rai because it's, there's so much money the whole place is correct so we went after the hong kong folks in order to do that uh i set it up with a series of calls to the guy in the prison in thailand i was introduced as a new york businessman who's going to be over in hong kong on business anyway i have to bring you some money i have to do this we have to be careful with the accounts right now i need you to change the accounts i need to come over and discuss

that with you in person all this stuff and they went for it so So myself and my DEA partner, Keith, we're salt and pepper team. He's a same size as me, African-American guy, and a two of us are going to go over there and do this, right? We're both Americans. I'm sorry. I mean, if he looks like you, then you both, you both look so much like cops. Yeah, but not there.

Not there? Well, let's go back to all Americans look alike. Well, let's go back. Yeah. Let's go back to I talked about early about hope, right? People believe what they want to believe. Right. You're going to bring me money.

You're a representative of this guy. He owes us money. You're our new contact, all this other stuff. Yeah. They want it to be real. They wanted to be real. So they bought it. We went over there, flew over to Hong Kong, total life-changing experience, never been anywhere

near there before. And now we have to work with the locals. It turns out that the locals, there was too corrupt. But the locals are tiny compared to you. Oh, God. Yeah. Oh, the cops are like, I'm 6-3. The cops roll 5-5.

5-6, 100,000. It's so nice of you guys. to help us. Thanks. Elbow red. No, they were nice enough and very professional. They just weren't tactically sound in any way, shape, or form. But we had to do an in-person meeting with these people.

And so made arrangements to meet at the Marriott Hotel in Hong Kong in a safe space, so to speak, in a public space. We could talk. And I was wired up with a Nagra recording device, which looks like an iPad almost. It's about that thick and that big at the time. It was ancient equipment in 1994. five and we did four and I was wearing this belly band in my back and I had microphones taped to my chest and I'm thinking all they have to do is pat me down and they're going to kill me right but guns are rare over there and to have a gun is a big deal so there's not a lot of fear of that

necessarily but nonetheless we were in armed and we go to the hotel and the Hong Kong police are surveilling us they're watching us to make sure we're okay hopefully do the meeting hopefully get them to talk drugs hopefully get them to my goal was to order up more to say keep sending. I was going to give them new addresses so that we could document the shipments coming in and we could pop them, all that stuff. Well, sitting in the hotel lobby, all of a sudden, you know, I get paged under my fictitious name.

I go up to the concierge. Yeah, you call for this guy? Yeah, you have a call. I pick it up. Yeah, change of plans. I gave the address to the concierge, take a cab, click. A lot of people would have called it off. Yeah, I was going to say, that's that's.

That's not good. It didn't look good. It didn't feel good, but I was, I just traveled 10,000 miles to get you assholes. I'm not giving up. So I didn't want to talk to the Hong Kong cops that was surveilling us for fear we were being watched. Right. So Keith and I went outside, got in a cab, and hoped that they would take the hint. Follow us.

We're going someplace. You know, it's before cell phones. I couldn't pick up a cell phone. Right. So we get out, we get into a cab, and we get driven up to North Hong Kong to near the China border to a housing project. Okay. I'm unarmed. He's unarmed. And we look around. We don't see anybody. This is the building. Let's go in. I'm like, I come this far. I'm doing it. Walk into the building. Bring the elevator. Takes us up. On the way up, I tell Keith in the elevator, Keith, I got a kid at home and a pregnant wife. No matter what happens here, we're getting out of here. I don't care if I have to throw somebody at a window. Stomp on their throat. I'm getting out of here. Understand that? have the same mentality. So if this goes bad, we're living.

That's it. Have that in your mind. He's like, agreed. So we're like, good. We shook on it. Went upstairs, turned a recorder on. rang the bell. Guy opens the door with a gun in his waistband.

I was like, I'm fucked. I'm dead. I'm in the middle of nowhere. They're never going to find my body. And you have no, do you have any idea that the, whether the, um, Hong Kong police have followed you? They didn't. Found that out later.

They didn't. Yeah. So we're there by ourselves. They're just sitting there watching you guys leave. I guess they're going to lunch. We'll stay here. Yeah. We'll wait for them to come back. No worries. So, yeah, when they were checking out for the tactical operation, they were signing several of them, five shot Smith and Weston revolvers and giving them five bullets and telling them I have to bring it back at the end of the operation. These were not cops in a sense that you think. Right.

So these guys are lost. They go in, meet with the main woman who's in charge of the whole operation. During a course of probably a 45-minute conversation, she talked herself into federal prison in Manhattan. She gave me handwriting samples, all the new account numbers and information. She talked about the drugs. Everything went like Clockworth. But the second we sit down and start talking to her,

she had a dog the size of a race horse that comes over and is standing right in my face looking at me growling. I'm thinking, I was afraid of guns. Now I'm afraid this dog is going to bite my head off. Right. I'm sitting there going, oh, my God, can I just get out of here? sweating bullets, shook hands, thank you, great, we'll talk, Be-da-bing, out in the hallway, took the elevator down, come out.

There's no cab waiting for us. We have to figure out how to get a cab. There's no cops waiting for us. So we finally get a cab. We walk to a business, tell a guy we need, points to a wall, number we call, guy comes, takes us back to the Royal Hong Kong Police, narcotics bureau offices, and we walk. and go, how's everybody doing?

They're like, oh, you're back. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody have a nice afternoon? What the fuck were you guys? Right. You left us. Where were you?

Oh, we didn't know where you were going. Well, if you don't know the answer to something, wouldn't it be who of you, you know, to attempt to find out? Right. How would one find out where we were going? Follow us. Yes. Right.

One-on-one. They didn't do it. But we got the tape. We got the evidence. We played the tape. Went to court with it in Hong Kong. Everybody got arrested the next. day it was very interesting very interesting uh do they deport them back he got extradited to

america which is a process where the u.s. marshals fly over and fly back with them in cuffs and um so i went and they must have just felt like you know being in hong kong committing this with the ineffectiveness of the local police or having paid them off or whatever and knowing the the system they must have just felt like dealing what they were doing was they were just they just had it had a down like they were totally safe. They had a global operation that was making so much money and had paid off the right people in every place, had corrupt people working for them left and right, and then walks these two knuckleheads from New York, and we managed to snake right through to them and

talk to them, and it happened. It was probably one in a million that it would have happened, but they had the guard down because they weren't used to getting hit. But I'll never forget during one of the phone calls, because we had made some arrests and we had stopped the flow of money back temporarily, I called over. and who gets on the phone, the guy's boss. He goes, my boss wants to talk to you. You got on the phone.

It's a Brit. And he's telling me with a thick Brit accent, we are all over the world. If you don't come with our money, your family, you, you're all gone. You don't understand the reach we have. We're all over the world. It's a Brit. I was like, okay, in the mountains of Thailand, this guy's boss is a Brit. So you start realizing the scope of things.

And it's an enormous ring that they had going on around the world. specter we had just tapped into our little piece of it but it was a it was a heck of experience i mean you know i think we drank so much that night as a way of saying thank god that's over it was it was a lot of fun but uh yeah what are those what they get how many people did were how many people were grabbed completely and what were the some of the the sentences if i'm sure you can't remember all of them yeah well no that that was a as i said it was a two-pronged case. The one piece of it was the global narcotics piece, and the second piece of it was the White Tigers gang in New York, which we did a federal RICO on. Now, that specific branch of the

gang had done a Park Avenue and 46th Street, right under the Pan Am building, brazen, rush hour, daylight robbery murder, where they robbed a jeweler from Chinatown, transporting money and jewels up to his 47th Street location, made big press. We had the, you know, we had the contract murder in Brooklyn of a husband, wife, and year old baby that my informant took. And when he told me about it, he could have been eating a sandwich like it was nothing. He's his total sociopath. He killed all three himself. He took a hit.

He killed the husband. He took the hit, 7,000 a body. He took the hit, shot and killed the husband five times in the face, knocked his head through the window. The wife was in bed. She gets up. He shoots her just above the heart, but she lived. but she was passed out. He thought she was dead.

And then he's frantically searching the apartment for the baby. But the brother, who was the girl's brother who hired him to do it because they wanted the apartment to use as a mahjong apartment to make money. And the family who owned the building was letting the daughter live there because she was brand new young baby. They're working hard. He's like, uh-uh, dad's dying. I'm going to be the new boss in the family.

I want you out. She's like, I'm not leaving. Oh, yeah, you are. So he hired my guy. My guy went over and did this. And the baby wasn't there because he turned the heat off to try to get them to leave. This, I mean, now, my guy cooperates and gives me the guy that hired him. The guy that hired him, the only evidence we had was my guy.

Right. Because this is a four-year-old homicide. We had the detective in the squad was shocked when I told him we were solving it because he worked his ass and he really felt bad for the family. but we went to uh i went to the u.s attorney's office and she's like let's just indict him and because we have enough evidence to indict him let's see what happens let's see who else cooperates let's see what else we can generate on this case because he's just you know you hire somebody to kill your own family it's horrible and a baby took a contract on a baby so we go i lock him up i bring him in he's not cooperating he's acting like it isn't what i'm talking

about. My guy who's cooperating is now in what they call a rubber room, a psych room in the federal prison system down in North Carolina, lighting his genitals on fire and screaming about Jesus in the apocalypse. He's lost his mind. He's nuts. He's no you good to me as a witness. He's not going to make a good witness. No. A little less than credible. So all this guy has to do is say, I don't know you're talking about. Right. And eventually the case will go away. Right. However, right before Christmas, the U.S. Attorney's Office decides to give out Christmas presence, which is please. Let's give out a plea in this case, in this case, and clear a calendar, so to speak. So I'm sitting in the office with her, and she calls up the attorney

for this guy that ordered the hit. You know what? Your client sickens me, but let's talk plea. Okay. So we got him to agree to 15 years. And the US attorney says, are you happy with 15 years? I'll take anything. This guy's disgusting, but I don't got anything else. He's willing to admit he did it. I know he did it, but he's willing to, you know, it's not the wrong guy. It's the right guy, but let's work with him. So he says, I will not admit in a courtroom to taking the contract. I will admit to hiring these guys to go and scare my sister, but not kill her. Okay. I said, I don't give a damn what you admit to. As long as you admit that you were involved in it, you're the guy to contracted them to go there. Whatever. To be honest, let's face it, it doesn't matter

If I hire you to go scare my sister and you murder her, you're still, you're on the hook for that. Yeah, you're done. Yeah, you're exactly. You're on the hook for the, for the murder. You rob, if I say, we, I arrange for you to rob a bank, but don't bring a gun and you bring a gun. Well, I'm still, I'm still going to get, you kill somebody or anything. It's still going to be my fault. Right.

It's the root cause thing. So he, um, he goes into the courtroom to do what's called Alecue, which is admit your crime and talk about the whole context of it. The judge says, I want to hear from you. Not just, yeah, I did it. No, no, no. What happened? They want to make sure they don't get wrong people convicted. Tell me what happens.

So he gets in the courtroom and he speaks Chinese and almost no English. She has an interpreter. Now, this is the guy who hired the crew to kill his sister, brother-in-law, and nephew. And the family's all there supporting him. The sister who survived with the baby had to move to the other side of the country because the family abandoned her. Oh, wow. That's their culture. Right.

The son comes first. So he's in the courtroom with his pregnant wife, his parents, they're all sitting there. He's a green of 15 years. He gets up and he begins his allocution. And it goes through the interpreter. He speaks in Chinese. He interpreters says what he said. I hired the gang to go over to kill my sister.

He admitted it. And as soon as he said it, the interpreter said it and he put his head down, he realized, oh, my God, I just admitted it. Right. His wife erupts in the courtroom in the front row. She's like eight months pregnant. She's screaming at him in Chinese. She grabs her stomach and rolls down to the floor. I had a call an ambulance.

It was a scene. It was crazy. But I thought to myself, you know, sometimes there is justice. I mean, this guy, you know, he admitted it. Everything he didn't want to say, it's the classic tale, do not say this. Do not, whatever you do, don't say, you say it. That's how we're wired as people, you know. But that was satisfying.

I was like, okay, all right. I feel better that he did it and I feel better that he admitted it. And now I can feel good about that case. I know I got the right guy and the right, and a little bit of justice was done. What happened to the shooter? How much time do you get? You know, he entered the witness security program with SEC.

He cooperated and I have no idea where in a world he is. Once he gets moved into that, it's a change your name, move you, and I have no more contact. I didn't want any more contact. I just hope I'd never meet up with it again. He's crazy. He's legitimately crazy. So what happened with the people that were extradited from Hong Kong?

What did they get? You know, I didn't stay on top of the case. I know at least one of them cooperated, maybe more. And after that, I lost contact with it because the DEA was very concerned about the widespread organization, you know, so they're going to make every effort to get these people to cooperate. Right. I forgot what the sentences were. But the rest of the White Tiger crew that was involved with my cooperator,

They were all his guys that were involved in shootings and robberies and all this other stuff. They all got like 50 years, you know, life without possibility, federal RICO. When you throw that weak RICO charge on somebody with violence, it's life. You're never getting out. So I'm going to tell you a story that you find funny. I know Colby's here heard this. And we had this guy on. His name was Juan Carlos.

Yeah, Juan Sanchez. Juan Carlos. Juan Carlos Sanchez. Juan Carlos Sanchez, I think. So, yeah, like such a, it might as well be like John Smith. Yeah, yeah. So Juan, Juan ran a real estate, a huge real estate scam. I'm, I mean, if you heard the whole story, you die.

Like I, and I probably tell the story better than he does. But he, he ran a scam where this is before the meltdown. So he's, he's basically going in and he's, he's, he's, he's, selling these huge developments, right, and selling to the people, he's getting him a mortgage or whatever. Well, then things start to go bad, and he's looking for investor money. And he goes to Venezuela and he borrows money from the, from the, I'm going to say the cartel, which is actually the government. So he actually borrows money from the Venezuelan government. So he's meeting with government officials. They give him a bunch of money, whatever, $10 million or $20 million, something like

that. He comes back. He loses it. He goes back again. They give him more money. He, because they're making tons of money. They're laundering money for like the cartel and stuff. So eventually, you know, they're threatened. At this point, they're threatening to kill him and everything. So he basically just kind of disappears. So he disappears. He goes to, he goes to New York. It eventually catches up with him. And there's a whole slew of things that happen. But he catches up with him one day, FBI knocks on his door. And because a lot of what he was doing was manipulating the market and stuff. It's bank fraud. So they knock on the door. They indict him. They bring him back to Miami and he's in Miami and he's, you know, he's under indictment.

He's got no money. Of course, the first thing they do is take away all your ill-gotten gains. Take away his money. He gets a public defender. He ends up pleading guilty. He gets 20. Like, I don't know what I want to say 15 to 20 years. Let's say 20. I think he probably did. He probably still did eight or nine years. So he gets 20 years. He's doomed. He ends up hiring. And finally, he actually raises the money to get. get a second attorney off of Facebook. Raises like 40 grand or something, hires this new attorney.

And by the time he just about gets the attorney, one day he gets a visit. And he's more than willing to cooperate. And his new attorney is going to try and fix the sentencing. And it's federal. One day he gets a couple of FBI. He says they said they were FBI, but his attorney is saying he thinks they may have been CIA,

whatever. point is is that they show up they sit down with him and they say we look through your cell phone do you know this guy like we have you have cell phone number for this guy this is a this is basically like the attorney general of venezuela like he's like a cabinet member or whatever like he's high up he's like oh yeah yeah yeah yeah i i yeah i yeah i met that guy and he's like he's one of the guys that gave me the money they gave me a bunch of money he's like right they're like we indicted him he's been indicted three two three years ago yeah and he's like right well why don't you get him he's like well he's in venezuela we can't get him come

here he goes and he said obviously he's not going to come here and he went well i could i could get him to come here and he goes they go no no he wouldn't come here i mean he knows we've they kind of know we've we've looked into them like he probably knows he's indicted he goes no no no he'll come here he wants them to go to disney world and they go what are you talking about he said yeah he said because like a year or two, like two years ago before I kind of went to New York and tried to hide from you guys. He said a year before, so a couple years ago, he contacted me. And they were asking me to do all kinds of favors for them because I lost all their money. Like in between the phone calls where they said they were going to kill me in my entire family. They would

periodically ask me to go buy an SUV and try and get it shipped there. You know, he said, so one of the things he did one time was he said, my family, my kids, my wife and kids, they want to go to Disney World. He said, I need you. to get me to come in and he was in the way it works is like i could do that but i needed to get him approved and i had to say that i was like an owner of a company that he was coming to possibly work for and bring him and his family in you know he said i told him i could i can open a corporation but it would be a new corporation and they might have an issue with that and so you may not get the visa and he said try he said well i did try and it turns out that the local um um u.s embassy down

there, like, denied his visa. He goes, so if you guys have the embassy write a letter from the embassy saying that they made a mistake and his visas approved, he'll fly in. And they went, he can't be that stupid. And he said, I remember Juan goes, listen, you don't get to be at the level he's at in Venezuela because you're bright. He goes, it's because you're brutal. And he's stupid and brutal.

He will come. He's a thug. And he said, he thinks he's untouchable. And so they were like, okay. Juan ends up going to jail. He goes to prison. And one day he like, somebody gets a newspaper article. Somebody's getting like the Miami Herald.

And like this guy's on the front page like Miami Herald. They mailed him the letter saying your visa's approved. A week later, he and his family. family show up and at Miami International Airport like they're wearing like Disney World shirts and the kids have on like little Mickey Mouse airs they arrest them in the airport hysterical as he flies in and then he shows up at Coleman with the federal prison where where Juan was yeah actually shows up one sees him before like before they he sees him he sees him and he's like oh shit so he kind of has somebody go to him and say look do you know who this person is he's like yeah I know who that is he's like okay look you know is you gonna be okay this and that he's like yeah yeah bring him out i'll talk to him let me talk to me he's not it's not a big deal so he comes over he talks to me look he's like i don't want any trouble you don't want any trouble he and he said you know um one of the things they did at one point was they they actually kidnapped one at one at one

kind of got away got on an airplane flew back to and he and he goes he came to say when he came to he's like he's like man you you got me to fly in here you got me you got me in a lot of trouble he's like, you kidnapped me. He was like, you stole our money. And he's like, listen, this is going nowhere. Can we just be okay? Yeah, yeah, it's fine, it's fine. That guy, and like you were saying, they wanted that guy to cooperate.

Yeah. He did cooperate. He ended up getting four years. He was out for laundering hundreds of millions of dollars of the cartels money. Mm-hmm. You know, the Colombian cartel money through Venezuelan government. Part of that money went to one. Yeah.

So, you know, that whole thing. thing like you know he laundered hundreds of millions of dollars he ended up getting four years he was out on his sentence before Juan ever even got a reduction on his sentence for the guy yeah like then the government never even told Juan they arrested him they said nothing he had to see it in the newspaper call his attorney and say hey yeah this is what happened yeah then his attorney calls it as did you guys forget the mention something yeah but yeah that's so far I love the I I can picture them getting off the plane with the Mickey Mouse air ears on and the t-shirts and we're going to Disney World. Not really.

Not so much. Yeah. You know, you bring up the case about South American kidnappings related to the Colombian cartel. And after that assignment, I went on to work and was called a major case squad of the NYPD. And we handled every kidnapping for ransom in New York City. And at the time, we were doing about 55 to 60 a year. And the majority of those were alien smuggling, Asian-related alien smuggling, became a big thing. It was part of their M.O. They make money.

And it was, I worked a lot of them. But I also worked some Cali Cartel drug kidnappings. So just so, and because Cali Cartel was New York, I can speak about them. They moved their drugs through Queens and they have the whole Eastern seaboard up and down and Middle Atlantic states and everything. And they were forced to be reckoned with. Now, that was the enemies, so to speak, of Escobar, but none, and they were powerful. So when they as an organization bring you in to do anything.

for them. They know everything about you. They were the biggest cash business in the world. So they have phenomenal investigators. They have enforcement wings. They have intelligence people. They know everything. Right. If something goes wrong with you, your family's dead before nightfall. I mean, they will find you and they will kill you, but they're going to take your family out. So what they did was they had this group of guys called Los Gijos. They were their kidnapping wing. So we had a couple of kidnappings that were drug-related where we had people who were. were couriers for the cartel when Little Rogues skimmed five keys. They're not going to miss five keys, right?

Let me tell you something about the Cali cartel. They miss a half a key. Yeah. They miss an ounce. They account for all of it. That money they don't play with. And you're responsible for it. So this guy was a pilot, this one guy.

And he took some. Skimmed it, pretended it wasn't put on his planes. No, that wasn't me. It wasn't your mistake. They don't make a mistake with that. If they load a plane up on a wrong way down in Columbia and it stops in Central America, and all that stuff, it better have the same amount at each stop than it did when it started in Columbia. Well, this guy skim someone took off and he had a lot of money. He had a lot of money

from being a pilot for them and he thought, you know, he'd get away with it. The problem is he had a sister who had a baby and they lived in Queens. Well, they're at that family's house within hours. They grabbed the baby. So we had a 19-month-old baby kidnapped. That's a crazy case because kidnappings are serious cases always, of course, but for detectives they're very nerve-jarring because anything you do wrong can result in that person being killed. You have to be good at what you do and covert about it and low-key and it has to not be publicized. You're on this. It has to be behind the scenes and you want the safe return of the victim. That's your only priority. Everything else is secondary. It doesn't matter. Criminal case,

we'll figure out. First and foremost, get the victim. in back. This was a baby. We were highly motivated to work it. Well, we talked to the sister who was the mother and she was destroyed and she's like, it's my brother, he's an asshole, he's wrapped up with these people. I'm not. I'm an American. I work hard. So she manages to get in touch with the brother and she reads him the riot act. You better get your ass here and make this right. So what they were demanding was that he show up with the drugs and extra money and they'll let them, they weren't let them, they're going to kill him. so we knew that he comes out of the shadows because the sister told him now he's going to be our

courier he's going to bring the money and all that stuff to them but we had to back him up so the day comes down for the drop the ransom drop it's about 95 degrees with high humidity in queens that day he admits to you that he took the money oh yeah obvious that he took it but he knows we're not looking at him if we don't get the money sorry we don't he knows i don't give a crap about that that's not my deal my deal is getting your nephew back home to your sister right don't care about your world and drugs that let the dea care about that at that point i was working different stuff so he he had me yeah yeah we'll do it so we had him out on the street dummy rolls of money dummy rolls of drugs all so he could flash it so we would

know who we're looking at we had surveillance everywhere we had cars everywhere me and my partner are sitting in a car and we're in a pair of jeans t-shirt bulletproof vest gun a pair of sneakers hot day. We might be fighting with people running and chasing them. And I'm in a car that has no air conditioning. And I got the window down rolled down just that much so I can get some air. I'm waiting for hours. I'm already to go to the hospital. I'm like, God, let this go down

and this drop. So finally our surveillance team sees these crews. They do counter surveillance. They're riding around the area looking, make sure the area is clean. We were in the most nondescript vehicles. We had people in the bodega. We had people who blended. We had undercover from the car. We had the neighborhood watch but you wouldn't have known it. And you couldn't have known it because these guys, if they raised up, they would have killed a baby.

If they would have said cops were involved, they would have killed a baby. So finally, after several cars go around, the car comes. There's five guys in the car, two in the front seat, three in the back. The guy sitting on the bump in the back is holding the baby with a 45. This is in New York City in plain sight. Like a Tuesday afternoon at 2 o'clock on a hot summer day, right by flight. Washing Meadow parking queens. That's fucking insane.

So our lookouts are looking and saying, okay, this car is suspicious. Okay, we see a baby. It's the baby. It's in the car. It's doing this. The car pulls up by our guy who gives us the signal, whatever signal it was, that this is the car. That's my nephew. And we know if we give it too much time, they're just going to kill them.

Right. We know they're going to kill them. And they're probably going to kill a baby and dump it someplace else and just take their drugs back, whatever. But they had no intention to let that guy walk away with the baby. none you don't cross them like that and get away with right so we start pulling up we just it's like move in move in moving we have to stop it right now screech up get their attention jump out of the car is probably eight of us open the car doors throw people out in the ground everybody's got a gun they're all a mess the guy in the backseat is still holding a 45 i jump in the car he's right here

in my face with the 45 i take my Glock crack him off the face with it the metal piece. It opens him up. My magazine falls out. I got one round now. He's still got the 45 in his hand. Louis Estevez, who I work with this big guy, grabs the baby, and I'm hitting this guy in a face with my gun to get him to drop his gun. I finally get him to drop it, and I pull him out. These guys treated that baby like gold during the captivity, which was maybe a week, changed the diaper, fed it, it was comfortable, had toys. I mean, they're professionals. They had no intention to harm to the baby unless they had to. We want our money and our drugs back. the courier killed at which point we'll keep our part of the bargain and let you but these are a

professional crew they did it all over the world and that's how they do it and i was i was blown away by the professionalism of them they were just you know we have a playbook this is how we work you mess with us we can't find you we go right to your family so if you think that you're going to get over with those people good luck good luck i um i mean i hate to tell another story um but the the the whole them your family thing you know i've heard i mean obviously you know i've heard about this over like these guys you know they're fronting you 600 pounds of you know whether it's you know marijuana or whatever it is you know a lot of times oh yeah they just gave it to me i i it did so i wrote a story called american narco about these this guy who was uh he played in a band he's basically like a rock star right

used to play with like uh he's played with like lini cravitz and um three doors down and you know uh he just never made it big but he he he he's he was a he's a great musician anyway i wrote a story about him and his friend and the first time he got he he was buying a little a little marijuana here a little bit there a little bit there he said you know and he was dealing with a guy that he didn't know he was a cartel he didn't know he was connected to cartel like he's like he's a mexican guy yeah and uh he said and one day he comes to him and he's like hey man let's uh let let let's talk let's talk okay he said um he said we go and he said look i want to front you some you know more like five six hundred

pounds. He's like, oh, wow, because he'd been buying like a couple hundred pounds. He's like, you know, he'd gotten up to that. He's like, I'm going to give, we want to front you some stuff. He said, oh, he, does you live around here? He's like, yeah, I live right down the street. He's like, can we go by, let's go by your place? And he's like, oh, cool. He said, he's real friendly. This guy

is very like, he's real friendly. We went by my house. We had a couple of drinks. We had this. I told him I grew up in the area. My parents live in the area. He was, where do your parents live? He's like, oh, they live in. He goes, we drive by my parents' house. And as we're talking and I'm sitting there talking, you know, I'm writing my notes and I'm like, do you realize at this time what's happening? He's like, no, like he's funny because he made a joke

with me one time. He's like, you know, like, I mean, do you have, you pay your bills? You, you like, they want me to ask you some questions. Like, you pay your bills, right? Like, you have good credit. He's like, yeah, I got perfect credit. I got a house. I got a mortgage. He's like, okay, you know, we just had to ask some questions. You do live around here? Where is your house? He's like, yeah, he is. Can you believe that? He asked me like, what's my credit? And I sat there and I thought, you have no. No idea what's happening. It's funny, at the end of that story, one of their contacts, as they get up through the chain, they're dealing with a guy, this guy, Apples, you've ever heard, you know, they call, they have nicknamed, right?

Like, you have a big head, they call you Apples. Right. His contact, Apples, Apple's got at some point, he gets busted and loses a couple thousand pounds of Coke and goes to prison. the cartel kills both of Apple's brothers who are in Mexico. They just never find their bodies. They just, because they are normal guys, working works at like a t-shirt factory.

One guy works at, you know, in a retail store just normal people. Just one day they just go and they're, this guy gets off work, they pick them up. Yeah. The other one gets off work a couple hours later.

They pick them up. I don't know if they found their bodies in the desert. Or he, I forgot I said check the thing. But I think he, he said they dropped the body. bodies off in the desert or something. But I think they were just never found again. They was whatever. They're, they're, they're, they're definitely, they're gone. But yeah,

it's, it's, you know, people, he was just, when you talk to him, he's like, I'm telling you, this was, he was the nicest guy. This was a nice, which you don't necessarily, just like you said, people believe what they want to believe. Right. He didn't see it. Right. You know, and you don't realize till suddenly you get busted or somebody gets busted. Now I owe them $50,000. Right. I'll also note of times when things have been seized and guys, you know, but it's clear the DEA got this and they go and you were responsible for it and you go and the cartel says, we're going to let you work it off. You know, I've seen, I've heard those stories before too and they let them slowly work off the amount that they, that they, but other times you're not so lucky. Depends upon how much they trust you and what your track record is, right? Well, and that guy's just a thief.

Yeah. They didn't get seized. You didn't get pulled over and they, that you lost it. in transit or customs. No, no, you stole from us. Right. Well, crime tends to attract criminals, right? And so it's no honor among thieves, right? If you're going to be in a drug gang, there's always a reason why you opted for that lifestyle, and it's generally not because you're the most honorable person in the world. And some people are, but there's a lot of people who aren't. And as a result of that, these organizations, whether it be mafia, whether it be Colombian cartels,

Mexican cartels, they have an infrastructure built up to deal with people who play games, and they have strict internal discipline. I was involved in a federal RICO case when I was detective of a group called the Poison Klan. The Poison Klan was a Jamaican, Jamaica Southwest Indies group out of East New York, Brooklyn, run by the Beckford brothers, Dean and Devon, who were both, say hello to Florence, Supermax facility right now. These guys were responsible for 27 homicides in Brooklyn and eight in Richmond, Virginia,

where they were just starting. Most of it was internal discipline and it was strict. This is how we do things, period. You deviate left or right. They have no problem killing you. It does a couple of things. It ensures quality control among the crew, for lack of a better term. It also ensures loyalty.

And it makes sure that everybody understands that there are repercussions that you don't have a second chance. You cannot do this twice. it sends a clear message to everybody and these guys were ruthless as you've seen the most successful criminal organizations they cannot be given people breaks it just doesn't work in that line of work because it's giving latitude

to somebody whose whole life is about pushing the limits so you take your criminal crew and tell me it's okay it came up short it's okay you're gonna come up short every time right you rip you off like crazy actually probably one of the reasons that Paul Costellano was killed

by the Gotti crew was because he didn't act first. He suspected Godi wanted to take over. He knew Godi was getting involved in drugs and hurting, hopefully not, but definitely going to hurt if it ever came out, the name of the crime family and turned them into a different type of entity. Castellano was old school and didn't want that. Gotti knew that because of a tape recording that was out there and the old man knew it. So he acted first.

And because he acted first, he assumed the helm. So they have their own internal discipline and they're more brutal to each other than you think. But it works for them. What you told me about another case? Kidnapping. The kidnapping case. Yeah. When I was in a major case squad, as I said, we worked every kidnapping.

This one specific incident, I had a bit of an expertise in Asian, Asian organized crime. I had done some federal RICO cases. I developed a bit of expertise in it. And in my role in the major case, well, whenever we were to Chinese kids, kidnapping, I was, I usually worked on it. If I wasn't the case detective, I worked on it because I knew the players. I knew the gangs. I knew who was who. And so we had this one specific instance. There was a time when there was two separate kidnappings, two different places, two different times reported. And two separate detectives from the major case squad, each had their own case on it. But it went cold. We didn't have any information. We weren't getting calls into the family. We weren't getting anything. Things had gone cold. This is only only cost of a couple of days. Usually things are hot right away with a kidnapping boat. You know, they're taken. The family calls and says my friend was taken. My sister was taken from the store.

She was leaving. Do they have any idea why? Alien smuggling generally. With the Asian community, it's like, well, certain communities in New York City, we could assume, right? Okay, it's a Jamaican thing. It's probably drugs, kidnapping, because that's how they do it. Right. Columbians, it's alien smuggling and gang related.

I don't understand. You mean they owe money or? Yeah. Well, here's what happens. They want to make more money off them. It's a racket. it's all a racket. These people at the time,

Fujia province was the poorest province of China. They were having people brought over to America to get out of that life and they were willing to endure months in the hull of a ship. They were willing to endure whatever it took to get to America.

But to get over, to get passage, they had to work through what's called a snakehead. Snakehead's the guy that organizes the whole thing. Now, the price for you to get your new life in America was always $38,000. now they love the number eight that's a good luck number to them 38,000 dollars somehow paid some up front some worked off as an indentured servitude thing you're going to work 16 hours

a day in the back of a restaurant seven days a week and at the end of everything we keep everything except 50 bucks and you sleep on a cot until you're paid off or a 16 year old girl yeah she's going to work in a restaurant right to the brothel right and she's got to do 500 guys to work off for time, and then it becomes 750. I mean, they never get out of it. They really do destroy their own people by doing this to them, and it's their own people, the snakeheads. But they come over here out of desperation. Now, when they're over here, if they have any indication that your family has any assets whatsoever, they'll kidnap you, and they'll grab you and hold you for $38,000. They love that number. Kidnapping ransom was always $38,000. They used to do the ransom,

drops, they'd pick up the money, whatever money could get raised in and around New York area. And we would lock them up because it's easy. Knucklehead's coming. We just heard it on the wire. We're monitoring the home phone. They called in, you know, meet us here. Have the brother meet us here with $38,000. We'll give you your sister back.

So we would always lock them up. We were batting a thousand. They're showing up. We popped them. Then they got smart. And what they did is they decided we'll have the money wired. We will have our cohort. over in Fujow.

So the first thing they did when they grabbed them was they put them in a car. They said, give me your China number. Give me your family in Fujow province. Give me their number. And they call them up and say two people are going to come visit you very shortly. If you want to see your daughter again, here she is, mom, you give them what they want. And they do it because they know that victim has a family who has a house and or a restaurant or something over there that's of value. So they get off the phone, they're all distraught.

And two minutes later, the doorbell rang. and that's two guys from the gang. He didn't need a loan. Yeah, I do. Okay? We have money for you. You just have to sign over to your house and your restaurant and your car,

whatever else you have. And we'll hold on to your, I mean, it's crazy. So they do all this, and then they wire the proceeds, some of it back, and some of it's kept over there and they released the victim.

So we didn't know what to do with that this because we didn't have a ransom drop. We can't identify our players in New York, made a couple of cases go by where somebody would get kicked out of a car after the money was transferred and they would say what happened. We're like, well, we, you know, we had you as a kidnapping victim, but we had no activity and all of a sudden you turned up on the street. So our unit, through various contacts, got in touch with the Fugia police.

And the Fugia police decided this was a great opportunity for them because according to their laws over there, in a case like that, if they grab the people in China picking up the money, they seize all the assets of their family. family and they love that apparently they get some of it themselves it's a big thing for them so they were happy to help us out so we we had these people helping people yeah we had these cases um these first two knuckleheads i won't go into it tomorrow i'm deviating from the story in this one case but uh they were cooperating with us and that was a good thing so these guys um the first two guys that go to pick up money in china on one of those cases get popped by the fuja out police and summarily executed within two weeks. And they do public executions in a big stadium and they keep numbers, tallies, executions

to date, kidnapping, drug traffic, certain things are just kill right away. Yeah. And the sum total of their judicial process in China was a hearing with a stenographer, a court, a prosecutor, and you. Death, click, next. They don't play. So we have these two cases, these two people are being held. It's Labor Day weekend, 1995.

I head out to Montauk area with friends and family hanging out there all weekend. This is beeper time. This is pre-cell phone. Right. My beeper doesn't get a signal out in Montauk. It's way in the ass end of the Long Island. And it's really nice out there. And I can't, nobody can get in touch with me, really.

But I don't care. I'll explain what beepers are afterwards. Yeah. It's up there with phone boots and rotary phones. Yeah. So I'm out there enjoying the weekend. Start driving home. and my beeper is going off like crazy.

Right. Like crazy. Backed up beeps. As soon as I get into range. I jump into a pay phone at a gas station and I call back and it's the office, of course, and they're like, where the hell are you? I'm out in Long Island. What do you mean?

The shit hit the fan. Everything broke with these cases. It turns out these two victims taken at separate times in place was being held by the same gang along with a third victim whose family didn't report it to the police. So the three of them are being held by a gang in a basement apartment. in Borough Park, Brooklyn. Okay, the gang, Chinese gang, Chinese victims.

They they took the girl, the one girl, the first girl, and they beat her and killed her, stabbed her, crushed her head, suffocated her because her family refused to pay. They said they have no money.

So they killed her brutally. Now, this is a small apartment, and then they hung her by the neck from a weight bench and left her right next to the two other victims they had on the floor and they said see her that's what's going to happen to you if your family doesn't pay they took the dead woman and they took a note and they wrote on the note in chinese that you'll

never catch us this is a clue to our identity and they put a king of club's playing card down her shirt because that was an identity it would help them because they would call the plum flower boys of the fukinese flying dragons gang and they thought they were really really sharp and they were going to get away with this because they had done a lot of it. We found that out later, how much? Two other victims, the guy, his family can't pay. They're like, okay, let's just take him out. I feel like shooting him. Let's have fun with him.

So they take the guy out and they tell him, they tell the girl laying on the floor that they wrapped up in duct tape like a cocoon. They said, we're going to kill him. Party, come back and kill you. It's 2 o'clock in the morning now. We back by about 7 to kill you. So she's laying on the floor inches away from this other woman who's dead, brutally killed, bleeding all over the place.

And she realizes I have to do something. So somehow she manages to worm her body over to the stove. And she picks her head up and manages with her teeth to turn the light, the ignition, I'm sorry, she ignites the flame on the stove. Worms her way across the floor, picks up a newspaper with a mouth. Worms back, gets it up on top of the flame. It starts a fire. Just enough to go out, the open window.

and somebody calls 911. Well, the fire department gets there, this smoky room, and they're like, whoa, we got a problem here. All right. Precinct gets there. You got a dead body. You got a girl. She starts talking, blah, blah, blah. Simultaneously, at the same time, out near the Queens-Nasaw County border, they took this guy,

they drove off the side of the highway into a wooded area, shot him in the head, and left them there. Problem is the bullet hit his cranium, traveled around it, and didn't enter it. So he was knocked unconscious with the conceded. concussion. And it looked like he'd been shot in the hand. Yeah, because he was out. And they left him. And they took off. He wakes up and wanders out into traffic and almost gets killed. Causes an accident. The cops come, who the hell are you? He's got a bleeding head and he's, you know, babbling in Chinese about something. Well, it starts getting put together. They do a record check. They find out we had a case. Our case gets involved and everything starts taking off. Now, who did this? Who were these guys? They're in the wind. I get called in. right away we start working on it. We're interviewing people. We're doing our stuff tapping into resources.

Who do you have that's a source within the Chinese community? Who's your source of information? Who's your informants? Who knows anything about this? Because these guys talk. Everybody knows who did what, right? Like if there's a gangland slang, the bananas know that the Colombo's did it. Right.

Or something. People know. All right. So I talk into informants. And at one point, we realized through phone work that at the time, And again, I'm dating myself. There was these things called international calling cards, right? If you had the number, you bought $50 worth of credit.

You can call anywhere in a world with that number. You just punched that number in. So these guys had used a calling card from this kidnapping to call over to China. The same calling card numbers were used in Seattle to call over to China at the same time. The Seattle FBI had a kidnapping case in Seattle at the same time, Chinese, and they made two arrests. So we found that out through the phone company. We called the Seattle FBI. I said, yeah, we got two people.

We had four perpetrators. We got two arrested. Okay, our guys are related. Our crews are related. Can we come talk to your guys? Sure. So myself and the guy named Bill Oldham, great detective, lunatic, but a great detective. We get on a plane.

We fly out to Seattle. We go to talk to these two guys. They're in some lockup. We meet with the two FBI agents. They tell us the case. And we're sitting and we're like, okay, you had six perpetrators. Yes. Okay. And you arrested two.

Okay. Tell us what happened. Well, the victim was being held in this house, and the house stood alone, surrounded by yard and a fence. Okay. You know that because the phone call requesting, another phone call came out of the basement. In any event, we heard the person, we know us the victim. We went to hit the house. Okay. You hit the house and you got two out of six.

Were they all in the house? Yes. How come you only got two? Well, four of them went out the back. I said, you all went through the front door? Right. Yeah. Okay.

Nobody watched the back. I thought, oh, my God. You mean to tell me, you, we looked at each other, we're like, I can't, I don't even want to. None of you bothered to go to the back to watch it thinking they might do that. So that was, anyway, make a long story short, these two knuckleheads did not cooperate, but we knew the path we were on. because we knew they were affiliated with this crew.

We come back to New York. We're back in New York about a day. Same guy, Bill, who's got snitches everywhere. He looks at me at one point. He goes, they're in L.A. I said, how do you know they're in L.A? They're in L.A. Bill, how do you know they're in L.A.?

They're in my snitches apartment. You have a snitch in L.A. And they're staying at his apartment. Yes. Grab the captain. Captain says, what are you doing here talking to me? Get your ass to the airport and get out. So we did.

a bunch of us jumped on a plane back out to the west coast you put somebody behind the house my god unbelievable it was like rookie amateur hour but we get out there and we began a manhunt because they had left the snitches apartment at that point they only stayed there a little while they would they feel they were too hot so they're moving around and which we're doing all kinds of phone work any piece of information we have we end up coming upon an apartment that we have really good reason to believe they're in. And it's like a Melrose Place-style apartment, garden-style apartments with a pool. And you can see everybody's door when it opens.

It's like a motel. Right. I'll explain Melrose. Yeah. I'll explain Melrose place after the pot. It's a throwback reference. Yeah. I can go farther back than that.

But we go up to this apartment. We get the Orange County sheriffs with us or L.A. County sheriffs think it was. And they were great. We're like, we think they're in that apartment right there. And so we knock on a door. Of course, we have people. the back. We knock on a door, bang on the door. Police, we hear people moving inside, and all of a sudden we hear crash out the back window. One of these idiots jumped out the

back window and is in the tree that's outside it and falls down the tree. Compound fractures his leg, bone sticking out, and he's dragging his leg as he's trying to run away. They jumped them. The other idiot, we pushed the door in. The other idiot is sitting there with 17 kidnapping victims' identifications plotted out on the floor in front of them. They kept the ID from everyone in their victims. Not a good move. Not a good move. It's called evidence. It was the hottest trail I've ever led in my life. Oh, we know exactly who they kidnapped. So this guy gets up and tries to do the karate kid with me. He's about five, five, 130 pounds. Now, to put it in perspective, I've been working 16, 18, 20 hours a day for nine, 10 days now. I haven't slept,

barely seen my kids. I haven't eaten right. I'm exhausted. And you're going to to try to effing karate kit on me. Right. Are you kidding me? So he puts his hands up and I just knocked them on his ass. I was like, no, done. No, not going to work. Wrong guy, wrong time.

There's a time when I might have laughed and just had fun with it. No, I'm too effing tired. So we locked them up. We got what we got. Turns out the other three guys had gone out for booze and cigarettes and were gone at that moment. But later on, we found out they drove past the apartment, saw all our cars and said, adios.

Now, this is outside of. LA, I think it was Alhambor or Monterey Park. These guys took off and now how are we going to find him? Went through every piece of information we had in the apartment. Found all kinds of phone information. Started working with it. Found some numbers. Had some interpreters look at it. Said, this is this guy, Wu Jai. He's the leader of the gang. This is his his beeper number. So he said, okay, we know from their beepers that they work off code. We knew that 888-9-1-8-88 would always get an answer because 888's prosperity money good stuff 911 immediately call me so we set up a dummy number a Chinatown exchange Manhattan number and page this guy multiple times 88 911 he calls back

we don't answer the phone we don't have to we just see the number he's calling from the super 8 motel 8 their lucky number in milpitas california outside san jose they managed to make it 400 miles north overnight they just drove straight they stayed in their lucky number hotel and they were there. So we're like, okay, knucklehead Woojai is calling us from Super 8 Motel. So we notified a Milpitas Police Department. They surround

the hotel. We went up there and we're sitting there trying to arrest them and we're sitting in a car like, why are we here? We flew up, first of all, commuter flight, we're exhausted, haven't slept, get off the plane, they meet us on a tarmac, which is kind of cool. If you can get met on a tarmac for non-incarceration

reasons, it's kind of a nice, like royalty. I'm getting on the cop car on the tarmac so see you guys later this movie stuff yeah this is the way like this is the way it plays out in the movies not in real life so we go to it's funny we go to the milpitas police department i'm with my lieutenant ptartaglia who was a character i'm with the guy dougie hopkins from brooklyn south homicide caro rab who is the case cashing detective from the six six squad and we march into the milpitas police department they have a big briefing everybody's there the whole department's in it's the biggest thing they hit milpids in years mypd kidnapping homicide vic perps are

sitting in our hotel. They want to do the right thing, and they were great, very helpful department. So we walk in for the briefing and they're like, okay, we get the hotel surrounded. They're in this room number. They're there. We're going to go over and get them. And so my lieutenant, who insists upon smoking and the no smoking building that they're in, because we worked in dumps. Our precincts were like dumps. You could smoke in them. You could die in them. Right. But there's like these beautiful, clean, air-conditioned precincts. And he's just walking and smoke and they go, could you put that out, please? Yeah, he puts it out on the floor and the carpet and lights another one. He was that kind of guy.

So, we're standing there, and this guy's doing a briefing, and he's all confident they're in the, they're in the little room. And so he goes, excuse me, how do you know they're in the room? Well, we set up as soon as we got your call and no one is left, I understand no one has left, but how do you know they're in the room? Well, like we said, we haven't seen anybody leave. So you don't know they're in the room, right? Oh, we deflated them.

I was like, oh, God, let's just go off. I'm so tired. Let's just go there. We get there, sure enough, they're in there, but we're waiting to go in and all of a sudden, their chief of police is on the phone with the city attorney who's telling them, I'm not sure we have to cause to make an entry into that room. We have to talk, we have to have a discussion about the legal elements of it. And we're sitting in a car going, you're kidding me, right?

You're kidding me. these guys are insane kidnapping killers they're in that apartment they signed in that's the room they were seeing going into by the staff why are we what are we waiting for you know wait 12 hours to one of them comes out right well we're sitting there and this is going on back and forth and finally my lieutenant goes come on we're going to hit it i have no legal authority in california but we get out we start running up to the door and they i guess they got embarrassed and they beat us at a punch and they knocked the door in and in typical fashion there's always something funny that happens three guys in this little room they know what's happening one of them runs into the bathroom and closes the door

because you know we're not looking there yeah what the hell you think but that's what happens to people under pressure and stress they're not they're just i got to get away he runs into the bathroom and close the door and we're like hello you want to come out and they just knocked the door down but it was it was kind of funny um these guys had done 17 kidnappings they had done on that homicide, they did a bunch of stuff, and they were so emboldened because they had gotten away with it, because they prayed on their own community, and many of them didn't report it, and many of them did pay, they found a way to pay, but they ruined lives all the time, and they thought nothing of it. But as I used to like to tell them, I'm sitting there talking to them,

you can cooperate, or you cannot cooperate. And if you don't cooperate, I have one guarantee for you. I can guarantee you that you were not born. and raised and created physically to survive the American penal system. You're 5 foot 5, 115 pounds, you're hairless, you're the closest thing to a wife that some guy in prison is going to, you are not going to survive it. They're going to make you shave your head so the moth wig fits. And they, you know, look at you like, I'm a tough guy. You know what?

You keep that attitude. No. Good luck. Not with six guys. Oh, no. but it was a that was a fascinating case I felt good about that case because you know we like to speak for the victim and that poor woman was killed and brutally abused so badly and you know all joking and laughing aside you have to have some justice for cases like that that was not a simple case that was you know horrific and and we felt good about the closure I was going to say it's like it had the best for the situation at hand it had the best possible outcome you know but it's still not like a positive, you know what I'm saying? Nobody wins.

Yeah, yeah. Nobody wins. No. I was going to say, so do you go, what do you go over on your, do you go over this type of thing on your podcast or do you solely interview people specifically or what do you do on the podcast? We have a bit of a mixed bag. So we are a true crime podcast at heart in as much as we want to give our audiences the best true crime that we can get from the mouths of the people who made the case, the detectives and

investigators. But we veer off in certain areas. certain times, depending upon the guest if we think it's worth it. It's all related. We've had some military folks on talk about some things because we think they're just fascinating people. Tom and I have talked about some of our cases. We had an episode each we did just to focus on a case that we did that was complex and we thought interesting for the audience. But our goal is to bring true crime from the mouths of the people who make the cases. Like, for example, we're going to have people on who did serial killer cases and they interviewed the serial killer for hours and hours and

know all the evidence and can tell you that kind of backstage, this is what really happened. The media didn't report this, but this is something that you should know about him, explaining the pathology and psychology of the people who do that type of stuff. And I think it's, we've had fun with it so far. I mean, we're giving it a shot. It's a brave new world for us podcasting, but we've enjoyed it because we've met amazing people, and now I get to meet you. And is it on, is it YouTube?

We're on everything. YouTube and Rumble for video. Okay. And we're on every platform there is. for audio how does rumble rumble do i don't know you know we're not i'm not number i'm not the number checker oh you're just uh you're you're you're just the host you're not you're not paying attention to the analytics uh i hate to you i'm just the talent yeah yeah that's what i told colby when we got this and it said media i said i really wanted one that says and talent the talent yeah

yeah um i can relate to you yeah i don't have to do the rest of that yeah i didn't talk to your i'm just kidding i didn't talk to your your co-host because he looks like he he looks he looked at me a couple times and and I was like but he's he's he's he's in good shape yeah yeah he's thin he looks like he looks like he looks like he's a little bit a little buff but I was like Tom has that look with everybody he didn't know he was with you like I was he's a pussy guy's the nicest guy in the world he really is and uh we we know each other we worked together in the PD and got became friends and and he did a lot of his career in a terrorism task force he did a good portion of it and he traveled all

of the world and he did a lot of work for and on behalf of the victims of 9-11 and beyond and um he's he's a good solid guy and we have fun he's a good guy too uh we don't just do a serious show we try to interspers a little bit of humor as we can um but we give people it be good people a chance to tell us it's not about us it's a guest-centered show well i was going to say you've got you got like just like when we're talking periodically it has to spark something where you're you know you're kind of you know that reminds me of yeah this yeah exactly and sometimes make sense you know it's like it's it's it's because people don't I don't I get questions all the time people will say oh well you know this is how it is and it's like now that is how it is

maybe in California state yeah yeah but in the federal system this is a or what about parole well won't he get probation but he was in the feds there's yeah there's no there's no there's no there's no parole or will you get when is he eligible for parole not in the fed system not the feds he's not you know but you know no they still have parole because my buddy's on where's that? Well, oh, he's in Missouri or something. Yeah, yeah. Okay, well, I don't know. Yeah. The federal system is very different. And I did a lot of cases in the federal system. And from my perspective, as detective, once you understand and can tap into that resource, you have a lot of leverage over the people that you are right, especially organized crime. I'm not talking innocent people. I'm not talking to lassoing innocent people. I'm talking about people who are career criminals, organized crime entities who are harming and destroying neighborhoods.

You can tap into that and you can do two things. One, you can put away the bad guy and you can do. it without having the neighborhood having to come and line up in court and testify because everybody rolls on each other and so you save people's lives and i enjoyed that piece of it because people i mean these people are not you know white-collar criminals i didn't work on white-collar crime until i became a chief security officer in a bank but i i just these are criminals you're hardcore rapists murderers i mean these nasty people you know and you want to see them off the streets. Yeah. Yeah, I was going to say, yeah, I was, every once we get somebody that will get some people in the comment section, because I'll interview someone who, let's say, who's

like just innocent, like they, they were, you know, just railroaded, went to prison, did like 16 years and then happen to get like the innocence project to run DNA, ran the DNA, found out that the DNA matched somebody else. That guy's in prison for the same kind of thing. They put this guy in prison he gets out and so then in the comments they're like you know half the people in prison are or innocent and then the cops this the cops out i'm like listen i'm like very few people are are innocent and even then now if you want to say maybe people are over-sentenced you know there's a sentencing disparity like i'll give you that like maybe this guy should have got five years he got 20 years okay i'll give you that but innocent i didn't mean i didn't

me anyway that was really even if they're innocent of one thing it's like the guy was still making meth yeah yeah i get it that was wrong they probably should have just yeah focused on the meth right you know a lot of crazy things happen with that and i i would agree with you the vast majority of people who are in prison earned it and but if you asked them there's not a guilty person in prison not a single one but that's normal human beings we all but to pull back a second i would rather never have made an arrest than arrest one person and put them away wrongfully. Do mistakes get made with identification? Sure. I wouldn't assess money is not as reliable as people think it is. Do mistakes get made during course of investigations? Yes. But have I ever seen

any cop or investigator or agent go out of their way to put somebody wrongfully? Never. We don't want that. I don't want that on my system sitting in my heart because I actually didn't enter the job to do that. Right. Most people come in the job wanting to get to bad. guy, not the wrong guy in trauma way. That doesn't do any good. It's, it, you know, are there bad people? Yeah, there's bad seeds in law enforcement. There's bad seeds, you know, in the clergy for crying out loud, you know what I mean? There's bad doctors, there's bad everything, but the vast majority of the work that's done is done with honest intentions, which is why in America you have a chance for a stout defense. Right. And hopefully, you know, your attorneys take it

seriously and you get a chance to represent yourself. And hopefully a judge and a jury will look at you and now look at the evidence. I mean, things go wrong everywhere in the system. It's a human system. Yeah, I would say that. I'm like, listen, even if the system, even if the system was perfect, it doesn't matter. It's still run by humans and humans are flawed. Right. Okay. Yeah. I'm saying I'm a lot. Do you feel like, do you feel like, do you feel like there's anything else you want to talk about? Do you feel okay with this so far or this? No, this has been great. I really appreciate the opportunity. It's really nice to meet you. Your show is a success, and I'm so happy for you. You know, no, honestly, I mean, you know, it's, it's probably a time

in my life when I wouldn't have wanted to sit down with somebody who's convicted fraudster. Right. Really. But the older I get, the more mature, I get the more wise to get the more, I realize, hey, we're all humans. I'm one decision away from being a guy in a jumpsuit. Right. And it's really. And it's, it's not that we're so. different, what unites us, what we have in common is far more, and we can learn off each other. And I'm all about meeting interesting people and people who have, you know, I think you use your show for great, for great reasons. And there are wrongfully convicted people.

There are properly convicted people who have a story. Right. Everybody's got a story. And, you know, understanding the human condition, understanding who we are as people, we're all flawed. So I don't act like I'm any better than anybody else. I just, I chose the path I chose and managed to stay clean. But I tell you, it could have been many times when for just one second, if I had thought

differently, it would have been a whole different situation. And, but I applaud what you're doing now. I mean, you're honest about it. You're upfront about it. You know, embrace who you are. You know, we're imperfect. But I appreciate what you do and I appreciate the opportunity to come in and talk with you. Thank you.

Okay. I appreciate that. I never know what to say when people say that. But I do appreciate it. You don't have to say a thing, man. It's all good. All right. so well well okay so one we should turn that i can't even see myself i've been the whole time i've

glancing here i've been thinking to myself is this on is this on i don't mean to be insulting when i said you convicted frost i mean help you are you kidding me bro i prefer con man scumbag okay sometimes i go with with i hate to say former scumbag because i still concerned myself kind of a derelict but i appreciate no listen i had i did a a speech you know I'd go and I do like keynote speeches and this woman was like, what do you want me to say, you know, at the beginning of your thing? And she said, I said, well, she's right now, I have white collar or I was thinking white collar this and I go, well, why don't we just go with con man?

And she says, no, seriously. I said, well, you can say former con man. She's, are you serious? I said, would you prefer former fraud sir? She's, let me go with like former fraudster. And I was like, like, I was, I said, listen, I'm okay with scumback. Like, I'm not, you know. And she just, she's like, I.

I'll go with former, former fraudster, current white collar expert. And I was like, oh, okay, you're, you're doing a whole thing. Oh, my God. So, and then I go and I talk in these, you know. Have you ever talked to the ACFE? Certified fraud examiner? I'm a certified fraud examiner. Oh, are you?

Yeah, I've, uh, three times. Oh, yeah. Yeah, they're, they're good. I mean, I like doing them. I've done some, uh, the cyber ones. Yeah. And my favorite, though, is doing for a mortgage. conventions or I just did one for like a credit union, but it was still mortgage base.

Like yeah, it was kind of like the mortgage departments at the credit union. Yeah. So I don't have to when I say I, you know, I, you know, I changed the verification of deposit or I provided fake, you know, three months worth of fake bank statements or the DTI was off. Like I don't have to explain that. So if I say I whited out a 30 day late on a verification of rent, you know, you can see all of them where in normal persons just, they have no idea what I just said. Yeah, yeah.

But you can see the whole crowd. Yeah. And I'm sitting there like, you're my people. You know, like, we understand. So I had the opportunity to be the chief security officer at U.S. Bank and I was responsible for all fraud investigations and regulatory reporting. Okay. See, he said, by the way, he said security.

And I went, well, security doesn't mean fraud. That means like he's the guy that tells you who hires an off-duty cop. Like, that doesn't mean fraud. Well, in the world of banking and bigger banks, the CSO role encompasses all the fraud elements for investigations and reporting, all the SARS, all out of the crap. And it encompasses physical security, executive protection, alarms, a lot of their shit. Right. So it's a big mishmosh. The bigger part of my job was dealing with the Federal Reserve Board and the Office of Control of Currency on regularly.

They would look at my team SARS and break them apart and break their balls on page 37 of this stupid fucking endless piece of paper. describing how somebody, you know, did some element of fraud somewhere. Right. And one of the biggest things that I think most of the public doesn't understand is, if it ain't over $5,000, there ain't nobody in any bank investigating it. Right. Unless you, they have a personal interest or you break their balls. It ain't happening.

So you can lock, you can take $4,000 a day in various fraudulent schemes easily from the same bank and they'll never know who your name. Right. They don't care. I mean, they let it go. They write it off because they don't have the time. I had 120 investigators almost working around the clock writing frickin' SARS. That's all they did.

They don't investigate. They write SARS. They gather information to tell to the government who ignores it. So, I mean, it's actually, you know, the world's best business. The whole time when I was pulling money out, I had one CTR filed on me. And we're talking about removing millions of dollars out of the bank in cash. What did you do? I'm curious.

I mean. And I had one Sard, by the way, one suspicious activity, just one. Out of all the times I would go in. and say, hey, I need $8,000, I need $7,000, I need $9,000, and $2,000. I need this. I went one time I went in and cash the check for $2,900. Mm-hmm. For $2,000, yeah, sorry, for $29,000, for $29,000.

That was a CTR. That was it. And that guy, that was that bank manager, and he knew something was wrong. Yeah. He did everything he could to figure it out. Yeah. And he still ended up coming out because I wasn't leaving. I'm saying, I don't know how long it's going to take.

Make a call. Yeah, yeah. get my money. But what I did was that the quick, the simple version is that, well, I own a mortgage company that was regularly subprime. We did FHA, VA conventional, but the majority of it was subprime. So there was a lot of fraud in the subprime. And it's just like, you know, changing a W-2, changing a pay stub, you know, and so, you know, and of course I, you know, there's lots of people change like a slight, a number here, a number there, which is totally fraud. But, You know, I got to the point where it's like, now I'm going to change bank statements.

Now I'm going to make my own bank statement templates that are in color. So I can get, so I could send the color bank statement, three months worth of color bank statements, original bank statements to the underwriters because they would see the originals and they call, they call you up and say, oh, my gosh, Matt, you send us the original. I go, oh, man, I'm so sorry. Can you send them back? And they go, sure. And I go, oh, can you go ahead and, you know what? Go ahead and stamp those certified, you know, copies that you saw, the original copies. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And they'd make a copy and certify. And then they don't even call them. And I'd mail them back. So, and then it got so bad that I then realized, what if they do call? So, you know, and so what you did is you, I actually went and I made bank websites with my own bank, for my own bank statements. So they could call. And we would hold on. You know, you'd say, well, I.

I can't tell you how much is in the bank. But if you tell me, I can verify whether I can tell you whether that's true or not. Well, right now it says the balance was it. Yes, that's true. Okay, thank you. So, you know, I did. There was all these things. You know, it's funny.

All the protections in the world, all the, I sure what they call them. Safeguards, security procedures. All the stuff in the world. It all comes down to the human element. When I was, I was the head of. security for Albertsons based out of Boise Idaho briefly. I met the CEO. I ended up moving out there of all places, fucking Boise, Idaho. But it was a great opportunity. So I remember I was on a business trip from there on where the hell I was, but I'm in the airport and I got a frantic

call. The CFO, all these other people sit around a desk. I'm on a spider phone and they're all panicking. What's going on? I did all investigations at that level of Ford. We had this crazy ACH fraud case. Fuck, we're screwed. Somebody. Now, if you are a major retailer, you do business with big names. Frito-Lay, Pepsi, O.E., they move a lot of shit for your stores, and a lot of wire transfers go back and forth, a lot of movements of money to pay for product and all that other stuff. So this one girl who made $13 an hour, her boss was a director, made about $200,000, and it was his job to make sure that anybody who changed the bank account information for payment, to any of these companies, he approved it because it was all millions and millions going.

It was his job. Make sure it was legit. So somebody got smart and made of dummy Pepsi and Frito Le email address, sent an email to her telling her, please change this. This is the new account information, right? So in one week, $10.3 million went out the door to these new accounts.

And they're like laughing. their balls up before somebody caught it. This is, this is Zach. This is like Zach. Sorry, my buddy, Zach, who they would go steal checks. Yeah. Going to like, you know, Kellogg's for $2.5 million. And they would go open a, they'd go get an occupational little license that said, you know, it'd be somebody's name, DBA,

Kellogg's, you know, of Tampa Bay and open a bank account and deposit the checks, that kind of thing. And he was like, and they go through. So. Funny shit. So this money takes off. It's in the wind. They're panicked. 10.7 million dollars and it's egg on the face because they didn't follow their own internal

controls controls where i'm looking for didn't follow it didn't bother it the director i'm not doing that shit 13 dollar an hour girl right she's shitting her pants i go to interview her she's like am i going to get fired am i going to arrest it i'm like you know how hard it is to find a job making 13 yeah yeah first of all why don't you pump gas you make 15 but this was probably over 10 years ago this poor girl almost had a heart attack i had to calm her down relax You're not going to prison unless we determine, did you take the money? I didn't take it. Okay.

I know you didn't take the money. You barely found your way here today. There's no way you could figure this out. I didn't say that, but I thought it. Well, make a long story short, this money takes off. They're panicked. I'm like, son of a bitch, how did you fall for that one? It's like you went for underscore rather than, okay, I get it.

These guys are not stupid. They know how to do this. So that money had already moved. I went to see this guy in the FBI. There's a justice program, Department of Justice Program. I knew about because when I was in terrorist task force, my team was telecommunications and terrorist financing. So I got to work with all banks around the world on a freezing of assets, movement of

money. And I learned a lot about it there. That's why I ended up working in banking. But this specific set of money, by the time we, the FBI, which was less than 48 hours later, had already moved through like six countries. It was in Dubai. It was in Hong Kong. It had moved here.

It's now in Slovenia. I mean, like bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. And then you can't get it back from this country. Yeah, you got to all of it. Everybody would have to cooperate and line up and they're just not going to do it. Pain on the ass. Well, I ended up getting 8. something million of the 10 something back.

Nice. Because I made the right call to the right person early. And the bank was like, oh, like praising me. And like, honest, whatever. I mean, let's not focus on giving me a little plaque. Right. How about like wake up and fire him first of all? And they did.

And give that girl a raise and put somebody in here who's going to do their job, not don't make her do that job right now we've addressed the situation but it's amazing how many people fall for that shit yeah it's almost like uh reminds me of the stupid bank well people get these letters you know i'm a barrister from england and i've got the nigerian scam shit it's so funny you fall for that you got to be like marginally retarded i mean to put retarded people down why would you fucking answer that you know dear sir oh you ever see that guy james vich the comedian is a skinny little Brit guy named James Veach, V-E-I-T-C-H, who does TED Talks, where he scams, he messes with scammers.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, I've seen several of them, but. He's a riot. He's funny. Dear, sir, Winnie, you know, Winnie Mandela, the Winnie Mandela is reaching out to me to have me take her check. I just check for $2 million. You can keep $100,000 if you just, oh, people fall for that shit, though.

Yeah. It's amazing. Oh, my God. Yeah. How long did you work for the, what was it, a U.S. Bank? U.S. Bank was, what, three years, three and a half, four years or so before they did a reorg. Federal Reserve Board said you have to have a complete center of excellence for fraud. And my job was just going to be the physical piece.

And they looked at me and said, we pay away too much to just do that. I said, I don't want to just do that. Use your package. I said, thank you. Highway robbery. legalized. Give me a nice big check and I walked away. And since then, my wife and I do a bunch of entrepreneurial stuff, you know, like we do, uh, Tom and I do this. My wife and I own, of all things a franchise nail salon. Right. It's based out of Sarasota. If you guys live in Florida,

maybe you've heard of paint now, but I don't know if you have, she goes to get her nails that whatever, but, uh, what the fuck do I care about? I don't give her shit. It's a business. She's happy. We do live in, we live in Florida. Where do you live? I live in, I live about, I live in Wesley Chapel, which is like maybe 20 minutes north of Tampa. And Colby lives in Lakeland, which is probably 45 minutes or an hour from me. It's about 50 minutes. Oh, yeah. It's right in between Orlando and Tampa.

Oh, cool. Cool. Yeah. So was this good for you? Is this something in use? I hope so. Yeah, yeah. This is good.

I was going to say, I almost, I think, you know, I mentioned the chain. I was going to say back to me. when we were talking about fraud i was going to say like it wasn't it wasn't just changing that it was like i i ended up making fake identities oh okay and borrowing money from the bank so it ended up being like multiple scams like 11 and a half million three and a half million okay i was went on the run like that's that's kind of why so i ended up getting i ended up doing 13 years in federal prison i just got out like like but the first 10 years are the hardest um so The last.

Oh, my God. So, where were you? Oh, I was in Coleman. Where's Coleman? Coleman's a one mile north of Tampa. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, I was like the medium for three years.

Like, it's all fraud, you know, but I got, initially I got 26 years. So you have to, you have to, if you're over 20 years, you have to go to a medium. So I end up in a medium where these guys are like stabbing each other and there's, it's, you know, there's riots and there's, you know, But I would say like I felt like I was like a non-enemy combatant in a war zone. Like, you know, I just, this is all happening around me. I'm just walking to, I go to work, I teach GED, I teach the real estate class for 10 years at both facilities. And then I came back to my cell and I write or do whatever. And then I went to the low and then I started writing guys stories and I did that.

And towards the end, guys kept saying like, bro, when you get out, you got to do a podcast. I'm like, what is a podcast? What's a podcast? There was no podcast. YouTube had just come out. it like a couple years. I'd never been on it. Yeah. So I didn't know what YouTube is. Oh my God. And they're telling me what a podcast is. And probably the last year or so when I was about to get out, people started giving articles. Like, this is a podcast. Look at the top 10 podcast. Like,

bro, look, it's all true crime. It's just and I'm like, okay. So I got out and I tried to figure out what this was. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, what is a, a podcast? And, and I still didn't do it right away. I, like, we just started. I did it for about, six months by myself and then I convinced Colby to come in and help me. And so we've done that for about two years. That's great. And it's, you know, like it's been the last six months to whatever. That's my six or seven months. It's like gotten to the point where it's like it's actually starting to make money. And so now it's like it's all I do. I mean, Colby was all Kobe was doing anyway for about two years. But now this is like all I. That's great. Congratulations. I'm happy for

you. So I find bank fraud to be almost an interesting term because banks are fraud the way that they make money off you. Let me tell you, give me all your money. I'll give you 1% back, maybe less. We're going to make about 20 to 30% off that in a variety of different ways. You're going to move around a lot of different ways. If you want it all back, we won't be able to do that, just like Carlo Ponzi couldn't. But yeah, we're going to make a lot of money if you money and give you back a pittance. that's fair right but you know you can feel good about it because we have nice commercials and we give money the united way so what the fuck it's fraud they the way that they operate is they it's anyway don't get me started banks banks in america suck they all suck

that's a remote podcast topic yeah i was actually it's funny might have to wear glasses and disguise my voice for that one well when i was when we were when i said so would you feel like that Like, I was going to wrap it up. And then when we were going to get off, I was going to say, do you want to do another one, like remotely, you know, just about like, or first I was going to ask, what did you do? And if it was fraud related, I was going to say, you want to do one, a remote one just on kind of like, you know, your time at U.S. Bank and, you know, that sort of thing. Well, I don't know that I have a lot of stories from that, be honest with you. Because at my level, I didn't read every case and I wasn't investigating them. And it wasn't a lot that popped up to my level.

It was so much run-of-the-mill kind of stuff. I don't know that I could give you good stories now let's put that way that's fine I have a buddy name Zach and one of his stories is which is you know plays into what you had just said he actually went to he used to do he was check cashing checks and one day he had a friend of a friend that knew someone that worked in the fraud department that I forget what bank let's say bank of America so he goes and he meets the guy he says look I'll give you a thousand dollars to just answer 10 minutes worth of questions so the guy so the guy meets him he gives him a thousand dollars and he asks him some questions look if i go and do this what do

if i do this what are they going to call what you know and then he's like yeah this this is the answers the questions and then so they they're talking and then you know he of course pays him and he goes to get up and the guy goes wait a second he sit back down he goes what's up he said you got another thousand dollars on you and he goes yeah he said i'm going to tell you something that happens all the time there's nothing we can do to stop it he said now most people i wouldn't tell because i don't think they can do anything with it, but I think you can. He goes, give me $1,000 and I'll tell you what it is. He was here.

He says, okay. He said, if you own a bank, if you have a bank account and you go into the bank, he said, and you take out $1,000, $5,000. He said, and walk into the bank the next day and try and pull your money out. And they say, you don't have $5,000. And you say, what are you? What happened to my $5,000? dollars and they check and they go it was removed you know whatever 20 minutes ago or it was removed

two days ago you go i didn't take it because they have to give you your money back immediately and he went what because they have to give you your money back is now they can do an investigation they can do this they can do that he said maybe they'll give you the money back close the account they're going to give you the money back and he said and we don't he said we don't investigate anything under 10,000 dollars and he was like holy shit he's i don't know what you can do with I know that periodically bank employees tell their friends who have had accounts. Like they'll load up the account, put $9,000 in the account, leave it there for a few days, and then they'll remove it.

He said, like, they'll take their debit card, drive four states away, remove it and walk into the bank 20 minutes later and say, hey, I need to get out $1,000 and have the teller say, you don't have $1,000. You have $42 left. You just took out $9,000. What? Yeah. And so he was like, okay, thanks.

So he got up and left. And I remember he said his wife goes, well, there was a $1,000 way. He goes, are you nuts? Because that guy just gave us the ticket, the golden ticket. So he turned around because he could make fake IDs. So he would go and get people and he'd give you three IDs and you three IDs and you and send you to, you know, Idaho. He'd have you go open three bank accounts because you can open about three accounts,

you know, at three different banks before the, the fourth bank starts to go, wait a second, are you? Because they run you through like check systems or that. They're like, did you just go to, you got a bunch of inquiries. After about the third one, they start really, they start going, no, we're not going to open an account. So each guy had three IDs and opened up three bank accounts in each ID, and there's three guys. So we're talking about like $100,000 at this point. He would then have them, once they got their debit card, they would clone it. They'd send it back. He'd make a card in Florida. He would then go into a U.S. Post Office. He would order nine $1,000 money orders, swipe it, punch in the PIN

number. They'd give them the money orders. He'd then go deposit those in a corporate account that he had. He'd then call those guys up and say, hey, Jimmy, go in the bank. Yeah, I just did, you know, whatever, U.S. Bank. The guy, Jimmy would walk in the U.S. bank as Jimmy, you know, walk in and say, hey, I need to get out $200. And the person in the counter would go, you've got like $40 in your account. What are you talking about? I got it from $9,000. thousand dollars. And they go, no, it was taken out. When? About 30 minutes ago. Where? Florida? And then you get Florida like, I'm in Idaho. Like, what are you talking about? Do you have your debit card? You go right here. And they go, gosh, you need to just talk to Jan.

And he talked to Jan and Jan's like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. We'll be going to put that money back. Even if Jan said, that's weird, it's weird that you open this account. She still has to give you the money back a week ago with $9,000. You just got your debit card. and suddenly the money's taken out he was yeah it is weird and jan i'm not saying that you guys are running a scam here at the bank but you guys took my money well we're going to we're going to need to call the police call the police he's got a fake ID he's not he's not real wording he also knows they're not going to she's not going to call the police no so right she may make a referral to corporate security who may follow up except it's not it's not the threshold it's not a sorrowable amount right and they

don't give her shit and and so by listen they put the money in the account the next day he takes the money closes the account he would have him walking and say i'm not saying you guys are doing anything illegal but i'm done here i'm done yeah he'd get the money and and so these he did this like forever like for years and the guys he's working with are horrible by the way he's like they're drug addicts they're they take off with the money they would they were like he he actually came up with a system where he would remove he he would remove the money where one of the things they would say is what do you mean my money's gone i just wrote a check for a down payment on a house for nine that that's gonna to clear tonight and they'd be like don't worry it'll clear and so he got the money back they didn't

actually but they would go in the next day when all it was clear and they'd close the account so yeah he did this forever and he said sometimes he's the problem is they're drug addicts so you know they'd make whatever 40 grand or 80 grand he said not they'd get 20 and he said they're they were you know you couldn't work with them after that you gave him 20 you gave a drug addict 20 grand like even if he showed up the next time he couldn't function well enough to do what he's supposed to do. Oh, he's probably going to overdose because he's going to go crazy. Right.

Yeah. So he said they were good for one, maybe two. And, uh, oh my God. And keep mind, these people that he sent didn't know him. Right. They knew him through a phone number. They couldn't give him up. Right.

So he would, he would get a phone call from like the hotel saying, listen, the cops were called. Your guys walking around naked in the parking lot. I don't know. You know, look, we're, we're, we're afraid we're going to have to move him out. He'd be like, yeah, that's fine. I understand. pull the card out

get rid of it away you're like that guy he's burnt we're leaving him in Washington State he can't get back and he can't call oh my God

I got to get boogieing back over to the show and shit yeah yeah you wrapped up or do you yeah let me wrap this up okay sorry okay okay

all right hey so I appreciate you guys checking out the interview and we're going to leave all of the links and the links in the description box for gold shield and uh and we'll leave the link and i appreciate it and i appreciate you guys watching and see you