Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - Hidden World of Illegal Gambling | Paul Schiffbauer Tells All

Episode Date: May 23, 2025

Inside look into Baltimore's Illegal Gambling Operations. Pauls Book https://www.amazon.com/Amusement-Only-Paul-Schiffbauer/dp/1543911072Pauls Page https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-Ye3zVSq7L225BOeXxxBkQFollow me on all socials!Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/insidetruecrime/TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@mattcoxinsidetruecrimeDo you want to be a guest? Fill out the form https://forms.gle/5H7FnhvMHKtUnq7k7Send me an email here: [e-mail] you want a custom "con man" painting to shown up at your doorstep every month? Subscribe to my Patreon: https: //www.patreon.com/insidetruecrimeDo you want a custom painting done by me? Check out my Etsy Store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/coxpopartListen to my True Crime Podcasts anywhere: https://anchor.fm/mattcox Check out my true crime books! Shark in the Housing Pool: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0851KBYCFBent: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BV4GC7TMIt's Insanity: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08KFYXKK8Devil Exposed: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08TH1WT5GDevil Exposed (The Abridgment): https://www.amazon.com/dp/1070682438The Program: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0858W4G3KBailout: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/bailout-matthew-cox/1142275402Dude, Where's My Hand-Grenade?: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BXNFHBDF/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1678623676&sr=1-1Checkout my disturbingly twisted satiric novel!Stranger Danger: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BSWQP3WXIf you would like to support me directly, I accept donations here:Paypal: https://www.paypal.me/MattCox69Cashapp: $coxcon69

If they get caught, they take all the heat. The cops come in, they take every dime in the place. They take every penny out of the machine. We get this call. She said, we got hit. The police are there. You have 15 minutes to get down there. They're breaking open the machines. That's the problem with getting away with behaving like that for so long. You start thinking you're invincible.

They're like, oh, okay, we need 30,000. Hey, you know, that has nothing to do with me. That's no, no, no, no. You don't understand. We're collecting 35 today. I had my shock and I cocked it. And he's like, what are you going to do? Take one more step. step and you're going to find out these things were always classified as arcade games amusement only

devices right but we used them for illegal gambling racketeering you know so and what for years protected us was on the machine it said for amusement only not not wink wink but you know we had the outfit I worked for was my brother-in-law's company uh we had like 50 50 55 to 60 bars but they go up and down you lose accounts you gain accounts and um you put them in these you know put them in the bars restaurants little convenience stores you know and they uh they use them basically for gambling you know and if they get caught you know the thing with what protects us is you know if they get caught they take all the heat you know the cops come in they take every dime in a place they take every penny out of the machine they take any money you have behind a counter any anything

you're safe they take it all they clean you out and they take the boards out of the sometimes they smash the heck out of these machines with sledge embers but sometimes they say you know we'll give you 15 minutes to come down here and open them up so you know if they open the machines up you know we'll go down there we'll put a board in there and it'll be up and run it but how this works is how we protect them is that they get ready they take the heat so uh if they take you know three thousand dollars out of the poker machine you know they would have got half of that 1500 so we'll come down there the cops will leave them a ticket three thousand We'll give them $1,500 of it. They're whole now. We ate the $1,500. If they had $2,000 in the safe, we give them $2,000. They're covered. And then, well, they go, we have this, we have this thing.

We have to go to court. Here's your attorney. Here's a card. This is your turn. We're paying for them. Any court costs, miss work. Anybody got to, you know, we pay for everything. Well, let's get to that.

Let's start back kind of at the beginning. Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry. So, I mean. How was recruited in it or? Yeah, well, you know, basically, like, I mean, were you, was your family an organized crime? I mean, how did this, like, where were you born?

Where were you? My family was, and I was born in Baltimore, Maryland, and I was born on Easter Sunday, 1967. That's why my parents named me Paul. We weren't Catholics, we were Protestant. So growing up, you know, it's funny, my mother's 80 years old, and she tells me the story, you know, she keeps her mind of me, you know, when you're six years old going to school, kindergarten, you're going to cry, but you're, you're going to cry, but you're. so brave that, you know, we said, if you make it half the day in school, we'll buy you whatever you want. And I said, I want a Coke and a knife. But six-year-old, you know, a six-year-old kid says, I want a Coke, of course, it was a rubber knife, you know, plastic knife. So they get me

that, you know, they're happy. I went to school and then, but prior to that, when I was four years old, they didn't, I didn't talk. So my parents thought something was wrong with me. And they took me to the doctors. And, you know, my sister was older me. She was six and I was four. And the doctor checked me out, said, no, you just have a good kid. because my sister, they called her hurricane because she was all over the place. And she spoke for me. And even years later, she worked for me at my bar. And she was still, I owned the place and she was still speaking for me.

Like, Zioner, you can't talk to them. I'm like, so it persisted through a whole life. You know, it was kind of comical how that went. But back to the story, like, you know, I was in school, National Honor Society, up to the 10th grade. I always wanted to be a fed. In fact, in my yearbook, my 1985 year book, I did have hair, had long hair, part of the middle. You just take me 45 minutes to drive, believe it or not. And big the big comb. I don't know if you had a big comb or not. So it was written my yearbook, U.S. military, criminal justice

degree, hopefully FBI. So my 11th and 12th grade year, I kind of aft off, you know, it wasn't cool to be smart, you know, because everybody cheat. I was a guy, everybody cheated off of, you know, because I've always had the work done, you know, and it wasn't cool, you know, when you get older than your teens, it's not cool. So I kind of, kind of screwed up my early college plans by messing up 11 the 12th grade so i'm thinking okay let me let me let me go in the army let me take some classes while i'm in the army regroup and and i qualified i did well and they you have to take an entrance test and i did well enough to like kind of pick what i wanted to do so i'm like you know gunsmithing they had they had a job was 45 bravo 10 which is like you're like a gunsmith you know and it had

a top secret security clearance i said oh this is great i'll do this go on there four years learn about all kinds of weapons everything they fired i could fire and fix i'll get the i have the the top secret clearance, I'll get out, four years, go to college, try to become a policeman prior, you know, being a Fed. I want to be a policeman, go to school, then be a Fed. And, you know, so that was my, that was my path. But once I got out, you know, I started working at this hotel, and I met my boss, ended up being my fiancee, now my wife. So she was my boss. And so how I met, talking about my family wasn't an organized crime. And we were just, regular you know my father worked for general motors 38 years yeah my mother was a house

about the organized crime i was like yeah yeah like how did this well i'll tell you what happened we're we're dating and then you know your first dating i i i went to every function they had a function every weekend and we always went all the functions were at her brother law's house my future boss sunny i call him sunny and um there's always another character there this guy named phil fell ended up walking my wife down the aisle because he was kind of like a like a like a surrogate father because her father died when she was young and he was a family friend but he also was a baltimore county judge he was a liquor board judge he ended serving at their 23 years but he knew he knew everybody in bonner county Baltimore city Annapolis you know he knew

everybody because he was in politics and being a judge for so long so when we would go to these parties about when my i was dating my wife you know the two characters are always there sunny they're usually sunny's house he had a 7000 square foot house you know i'm thinking like what is this What does this cat do? You know, you had the gates and the pool with the, you know, the fountains and intercom systems, you know, pretty good for a judge. Well, no, this is, this is Sunny. This is her uncle.

This is her brother-in-law, this is her brother-in-law, not the judge. The judge was always there. He was always invited because he needed him in his industry in the business, because he would be notified when like bars were going for sale and Sunday would get tipped off, hey, this place is coming up, maybe move in there, try to get the account, you know. So I'm going to these. functions. And they, they would talk and then they would sit amongst themselves and talk shop. And they knew they started real right away, like ask me questions like, oh, you want to be a fed,

you want to be a cop, this and that. And I've already gone through the process like the city police, Baltimore County Police, State Police. I was like in in the in the in the in the in the till ready, you know, waiting for for a higher date or whatever. And like it was like 18 months to two years. So it was like a hiring freeze. But I was already in the system. Like I already passed everything. So I'm I'm working at the hotel. And. and just kind of buying my time, starting to go to school. And so they kept talking to me, oh, why are you going to do this? Why are you to do that?

They knew, you know, later on I learned why they would ask me all these questions because they knew if you want to be a Fed, you're a squeaky claim. You're, you know, you're like, you can't have a speeding ticket. You can't be, you know, nothing can be wrong with your, with your background. And they got, they got a good feel of that. So if about eight or nine, you know, little parties, they got more and more familiar, but they started telling me what they're doing, all out of the ending company. And they had like 160, they had 110 cigarette stops, but not every stop had poker machines.

About 55 to 60 bars had poker machines because some of the- They had 110 cigarette stops. Back then you had cigarette machines. Okay. So some bar, every bar had a cigarette machine. Yeah, yeah, I remember the ones you pulled the lever. Yeah, but not every place we had had poker machines because some places were like facilities where they had you get weddings and things like that. So we don't have machines in those places, you know.

And like we had cigarette machines at like a warehouse places where guys got off work and they get cigarettes, you know. Because back in the 90s, people were still smoking like crazy. So they started talking about the business and all. And then they, uh, I thought something was up. I'm all away, my, my, my fiance at the time sticking like, was he always asked, why is he pulling you aside? You know, he always were pulling me aside, asking me questions. so I'm about a few months after going to these things I'm working at the hotel and he comes checking in he was staying there he lives in he lived in Virginia he would come in town in Baltimore where these you know his business was and stay like three days a week so he'd work three three four days a week and go home on the weekends and so he came in one night and he was checking in one night and he always called me kiddo he always called me kiddo he was hey kiddo when you get off you know I'm like okay sonny I'll come up you know and I'm thinking like okay he's got to maybe You know, all this talk about what do you want to do with your life, you know, maybe I can help you out with something.

And they would say, you know, hey, Phil's, you know, Phil's a judge in the county. Maybe he can help you in 18 months, get you in the police department, you know. So they're feeding me all these lines. And so I go up at, I go up at 11 o'clock when I got off and he's up there. He loved the smoke. He's always smoked. And he's telling me about his business, what I do. And then he started telling me about the poker machines more involved.

He goes, I'm like, are they illegal? He's like, well, you know, they're, there are any illegal? legal if you get called gambling on them. So, and so I'm just listening to him. And this, he was 20 years my senior. I was 23. He was, so he was 43. So he's a lot older than that man.

So he's telling me about the business and he's all, he goes, you know, the same thing. How long is this police thing going to take? I said, 18 months, two years. He goes, hey, man, why don't you come work for me? I said, I don't know, you know, the legality of this stuff, I'm not sure it may hurt me. He goes, oh, I'll just have you move machines. You run the cigarette route, you know. you're going to get married eventually to my sister-in-law, you'll be family, you'll be perfect.

I'll help you out. You're helping me out. You're not robbing the bank. You're just driving the getaway. Yeah, no. And he explained to me too, like he goes, we're like bankers. And they were. They were like bankers.

So you want to own a bar. You know, a bank's not going to lend you 25 grand as a deposit to get into a bar. They're not doing that. So they would come, these guys would come to these operators and say, hey, I want to buy Nick's bar. He's selling it. You know, he wants $100 grand. He wants $25 grand down.

I don't have it. And so we go check the place out, or he's telling me that we check the place out. We think we can make money. The main thing is putting fast pieces in there. They call the program machines fast pieces. And you put a jukebox, pool tape, whatever. They think that they make their money back pretty quick. They'll have done the guy to money.

But see, they tie the guy up too. If the property is involved, they put a lien on the property. They always put a lien on the liquor license. So they're not going to be out of penny if the guy that goes belly up. And then we also kind of control them, too, that if they screw up, and we've done this before, or if they screw up, I'm kind of getting ahead of myself. We put them out, put somebody else in there. Right.

So he's explaining how this thing works. So we're just like banks. We're helping people out. We loaned money to get into business and all. And then he, you know, he's what do you think? I said, I don't know. So he had his briefcase there. He opens his briefcase and he had this six, six bundles stacks of money bundled together.

And he throws me one of them. I catch you. I'm like, man, you know, it was $5,000, you know, bundled up. And he goes, what do you think? I said, that's, you know, more money I've had held in my life. I was making $800 a month in the Army and I was making, you know, $2.25 a week working in the hotel. And he's telling me about he goes, how about I start you at $35,000 a year? I'm like $35,000 a year.

I'm thinking like the police is going to start me at $21. So I'm thinking like, he goes, what do you think? I said, you know, I don't know. He goes, look, you know, just do it for a while. You know, my wife will feel better. You're helping her sister out. You know, it's going to get you started. You can save some money.

He's laying all that on me. You know, like I said, Phil is going to help you get in the police down the road. It's just about people helping people, you know, and I'm like, you know, and I was, you know, I was naive in a sense, but, you know, not, you know, I learned the ways of the world pretty quick. So I'm like, all right, you know, you know, here. And I said, okay, yeah, I'll try. I'll do it. I've got to give my two weeks here. I'll come down and we'll see how it goes.

So I throw the money back to me, so give it back as no, man, that's all yours, brother. That's sonny bonus. I'm like, you sure? He goes, yeah, it's all yours, man. You take it. I'm thinking like, shit, and that's most money ever had in one time in my whole life at that point, five grand. So, you know, then I'm off the races. So I, two weeks, I start working.

I go to the shop, I meet, you know, he had a partner, partner named Iira. And it was IRA, how they got into it. It was IRA's a father-in-law's business. That's how they got in there because you can't just buy into these businesses. Like me, you just don't hire somebody off the street. You know, he felt he knew me. I'm going to be a family. so they'll hire me you know and these guys as I found out you know as it got involved in it

it was it was organized like there was five main I'm not mimicking a lecoaster nozer there's five main operators these guys had most of the most of the bars and restaurants there was dozens and dozens of operators but these five guys controlled probably 85% of it so they weren't the total guys out there but they were they had most of the stuff so um these guys, you know, kind of controlled everything going on. So I started working. I make it back to, you know, start working for him. I meet all the guys and he says, you know, the first three months, I'm like riding

with these guys. I'm getting paid $35 grand a year just to sit on my ass. Right. Drink sodas and run. Because I had to know every location. I had to ride with that cigarette guy for a month. I had, everybody had to see my face on all these accounts because we're not wearing a shirt that says, Bill was amusement on it.

Yeah. You know, because it's like, you know, who's this guy? You know, he's a new guy. He had to physically take me to all these accounts. He's the new guy. So I come up with a set of keys to fix the machine, dump a machine, collect the machine. They knew who I am. So I ran with a cigarette guy for about a month.

I ran with the day mechanic for about a month, the night mechanic for about a month. Then I started. And Sunday's like, all right, you're going to start collecting with me. And I'm thinking like, okay, I thought, you know, all right, all right, yeah, okay. So I'm going to start collecting with you. Can I ask question? What's the the night mechanic? Yeah, we had, because these things were in bars and restaurants.

Right. So we had a day, we had day mechanics because we had, we had a service of machines that they broke down. Oh, okay. Yeah. I thought you were just going, opening him up, taking the money. Oh, no, no. I mean, I learned everything. He wanted me to learn everything from the ground up because eventually he would come up in town and screw off because he had, he had three or four girlfriends.

Right. And his plan was, his plan was I was doing all his stuff eventually. Right. Right. That was his goal. Get me situated. He's going to go to Vegas, do whatever, go to Jersey. And then he plays, you know, dad and husband on the weekends. You know, I mean, the guy was the guy was a character. So I'm learning, you know, I'm learning the round and all. And so a couple weeks with him, I start riding with a night guy. The day, he's a mechanic. He's a mechanic mover. It's big guy named Rob, big black guy. He's like six foot, six foot three, three 80. Big dude. And Sonny's like, you know, hey, man, he. you know, he's slow. You work with him. You move his ass. I'm like, I don't know how am I going to move this guy.

He's six foot three, three, three, three 80. I'm, well, you, you know, let him know that you're going to be in charge. I'll like, all right, whatever, dude. So it was like my first day with, with Rob, we get to the shop early. And I, you know, we're in the truck and we have some equipment in there. We got, he had like a list of things he had to move pool tables and things. I'm, I'm same thing going around helping them out, learning the bars and the people. Then we get this call, you know, we all had radio.

and Janice was the woman who worked in the office who took the calls and she said we got hit we got hit I'm thinking like I'm looking at rob because I can hear over the radio and Sunday comes on to go is we're at and she's like a Thunderberg lounge the police are there you have 15 minutes to get down or they're breaking open the machines so this was this was like one of those times they said you have 15 minutes to get here or we're going to smash them up right and we happen to be closed so this is this is one of the first this is the first encounter I had with police of many of both state, local, and eventually the fed, you know, feds. And we go down there and in the store, it was kind of crazy.

This is what it was like surreal. So Sonny's on the radio saying, Rob, tell Paul the situation, you know, so we want to ride down or we're real close. He's like, don't say nothing. Don't say anything. They're going to ask you stuff. You just move machines around. You don't know shit.

I said, okay, I don't know shit. So we go in there and these cops had pool sticks, the uniform cops. There was undercover cops there. They had pool sticks. in this bar. You know the white ceiling towels. You put up in the grids. They had pool sticks and they're bang, bang. And they're knocking them and it's like it's snowing in there. Dust is coming down and see why they're, why they're banging these towels. They're looking for money because people would stash the money in these bars at different places, you know. Like I used to hide money

in the ceiling and the back in the kitchen in my place. I had a safe, but also had an area where I had money too because you never know when you get pinched. Right. So they're in smashing a place up in the bar and they're yelling and screaming, I don't have any. money. They go behind the bar and they're pouring out, they're pouring out a coffee. They're pouring out sugar. Where's this give us the bank? They wanted this bank, you know, so they go to Rob, you got the keys.

He goes, yeah, he goes, open them up. So he opens the machines up, dump the buckets out because the machines go right through. The money goes in the bill acceptor, drops right into these buckets, a little bucket. And they dump on the bar and they're counting the money, you know, that's where they count it like three grand out. So there's still a guy, the cop goes behind a bar. He goes, just give me, just give us your drawer money. And we'll fill the paperwork out. We'll be born our way.

We don't have to wreck your place up. So the guys like refusing to give his drawer money up. So they start smashing the bottles. They're like, psh, I'm thinking like, what? I'm thinking like, here, I want to be in law enforcement. Yeah. And these guys are like, these guys are tearing this place up. Yeah, they're plugs.

They're not the law enforcement. Oh, yeah. They pulled me aside to go, what are you? I said, I just worked there. I'm just, I'm just, I'm moving machines around. Give me your ID. Okay. I give him my ID, and he's, what do you do for the company?

I said, I just move machines around. You know, they're using these things for illegal gambling. That's racketeering. I said, officer, said, I haven't been doing this as long. You know, I just started doing this. I don't know what you're talking about. He goes, you need to find a new line of work. I'm like, okay, whatever.

Like smashing up bars? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you got to be careful what you say. You know, you had involved with police. Oh, me. You got to be very measured. I'd be very polite. I'd be like, I'm so polite.

If I got pulled over and dealing with these guys. And when I had the feds eventually come see me, I'm very polite, but firm. And so Rob finally says, look, you know, look, officer, the money's in the floor drain. And the guy starts screaming, why are you telling where the money is? So they stop smashing a place up. There's a floor drain. They pull the floor drain up. There's a mason jar of $1,500 in it.

That's where he hit his money at night. He didn't have a safe. He put in the floor drain. So he gives the money up and they do their thing and they took the boards out of the machine. And they go, are you hanging around? And Rob just like nodded. So once he leaves the paperwork. and the receipts, they're done.

It's over with it. They can't come back. So they leave and that's when Rob, you know, Rob tells the story of what I went back to where like, you know, he starts bitching out Rob is why'd you tell him what the money was, you know, they would never found. He goes, look, they were going to smash his place up until they found it.

He goes, we got to pay for everything. Yeah. You know, so he said when something, like I'll reiterate how it works, Sunday's going to come down. The $3,000 they took out of the machine.

15 was yours. You're going to get $1,500 bucks. The $1,500 hours that was in your, you know, It was your bank to start the day. You're getting all that back. You're $3,000. He goes, but now we got to pay to have the place fixed up because you wouldn't give the money up, which we're going to give you the money back.

Right. You know, so he didn't, he didn't the guy realize you guys. He did, he did, but he just thought. He thought he was smarter. I'm like, you're not good. You're not, you're not, they already got you illegal gambling. No, you can't win. You know, what are you doing?

So, you know, sunny comes down. We put the boards in, boom, within an hour. We're up and running. but see there's there's three there's three things that have to happen for them to catch you three things they have to see sometimes they lie about it they do lie about it so they have to see somebody playing the machine okay they're playing a machine so points secure so say there's 2,000 points up in the corner that you've you've cured over playing for an hour or whatever so that's if it's a quarter machine that's 500 bucks so the police have a undercover guy has to see the points they have to see the points they have to see the points they have to see the points on the online machine. Then they had to see them disappear. Now, how they disappear is like we had, we would hook basically as like a garage door opener,

you know, a little clicker. So we would hook it to the board. So when they wanted to clear the machine, there's somebody cutting lawn outside. I don't know if you hear that or not. No, okay, sorry. So we had these garage door opens and we would hook the machine. And then if they wanted to clear the points,

it was a little button. Boom, you click the button, the points go away. The cops had to see, okay, the points were up. the points went away. And then the next thing, the third thing you have to see is money going over the bar that a guy that was just playing the machine. That completes the transaction.

There are three things they have to see. Then a place has popped. It may take a week or two to get the warrants and all that for them, you know, come in and kick the door and whatever. But that's how it operates. But we've had bars in the past that were popped so many times that the police would lie.

They'd say because this one guy got popped four times. And he finally said, look, if you hit the machine, just walk out, come in tomorrow morning before I open up, give you the money then in an envelope. Because that's how many times the guy got popped. Right.

So he started doing that and they still popped them saying, oh, we saw the points go off. The points go off. The points were there. And then we saw the envelope go over the bar. And the owner was like he was like fit to be tied in court. He was ready to say, I pay him the next day.

But of course he's not going to say that because you know, he's incriminating himself anyway, you know. That's kind of how all that works. That system works there. as far as that stuff goes. But, you know, I was in the business a while. And then, like I said, I was, I was being prepared to do things. So after that, like, I was a little shooking up.

And I, there's a couple of times that I worked when we were on. I'm thinking, like, I'm getting out of this. You know, I'm going to get the fuck out of this. So that was one of them. And he's like, you know, at the end of the week, he's, let's go out, let's go have dinner. Because we had to go hang in bars, too, that we didn't have and, like, try to spend money to get accounts. You want to keep your accounts, you know. But you're losing them so you have to constantly get more.

Yeah, we would try like if somebody would come in, say you would come in, you went to bar, we'd loan you $25,000. You signed a five-year contract with us. So if we're making, say, $2,000 a week each, you're getting $2,000, I'm getting $2,000. I'm going to take $500 your money towards that note. So within five, with the one year, we're paid back. So we have four years with you, you know. So once that, when it gets close to that time running out, you want to try to finis

able to keep the guy. But some guys want to move on or they want too much money. I want a hundred grand now. Or I want to gift. You know, like, why don't you just give me 50 grand and I'll sign a we had accounts where we would give 50 grand to for five years. But we're making like five plus a week, you know, five thousand a week. So we might say, yeah, we'll give you 50 grand. You sign a seven year contract with us, you know. I mean, they're making the money five to seven thousand a week. But a lot of these guys are spending as fast so they can make it. So, you know, so we'd like, you know, give them the 50, just give it to them. We're making that back real short, and then we got them for seven years. And so you also, once you have a contract with these guys, you know, you have liens on everything.

And you could, like if you have a problem with the contract, you can solve to one of the operators. And that was part of these meetings when these organized guys, these main operators would meet like once a month. They would talk about that. They would say, hey, I'm not happy with, with the Tiapples Schmitz. You know, we just don't get along. I'm making 700. We're making only 700 a week, you know. He's making seven. I'm making seven. but really there's no work involved the less the machines break down. So it's like easy money.

But if they have a personality problem, sometimes I'll say, you know, hey, I got three years left on the contract. We're making seven a week. You know, you want to give me 20 grand.

I'll sign the contract. I'm done with the guy. He's a jerk. Yeah, I was going to say, but then again, the funny thing is, it's like the more money you make,

the less you're willing, less shit you're willing to put up with. If you're making half a million dollars a year, and this guy is only $20,000 of it, but he's a big headache. I'd rather get let me get rid of me get rid of anybody else but then with the other side of the corn we had we had this one stop and this guy was a he was a bad big coke ad again and you like I said of all the bars we have most of these guys you do the thing we have no problems we do

the collections you know they know when their contracts up maybe we know it maybe we won't if they like us they'll stay with us we'll loan them money maybe we'll give the money whatever but we had this one guy we had we lent him a hundred grand he had a he had a nightclub but he was a he was a big Coke at it, but the thing was he would bring, he had this big nightclub and he had a back bar that was as big as my bar that I owned. My bar was 2,000 square feet. He had a back bar of the size of my bar and he had like a door and he would have after hours parties in there. And he invited like all the, you know, the gamblers, all the dealers, the bookmakers. He knew all these guys. And then you had prostitutes in there. So we'd have these like, it's like Caligula, you know,

back in his back room after hours and I would get a call I mean my wife with many times three four in a morning I need a dump you got to get over here I need a dump and a dump is like he's out of money because these guys would loan money to players they would cash checks for him you know and these guys would be there all night feeding the machine so he would run out of money so a dump was I would go over there you know open machines up we count all the money say it's five six grand I give it to him he signs a piece of paper he's got more money to keep these guys in there for this one particular i don't want over there you know i had a steel door in the back you could come around the back and go in and i hear this music it's like 430 in the

morning music is blah blah blah you just woke me up you know but this guy's the only guy i had my phone number because we're making so much money there and i pull the door up i think there's fucking doors open you know and i know what's going on there it's like i said these girls are in there give guys blow jobs you know there's coke all over the place i mean like i said it's like caligula if you're familiar with that it was just nuts yeah yeah So I'm like, I both the door, I go in there. I'm like, what the hell is going on here, man? He's like, oh, Paul, he's going to see you.

And he's like stone off his mind. This guy was named Richie. And he, he, he was like stuck in the 70s, long hair in the middle, always had a Hawaiian shirt on, shorts, flip flops. I don't care if it was eight degrees outside with snow. He was, and he had a bad stuttering problem problem. And Sonny would call him stutter fuck. And I'm thinking like, man, I was kind of, you know, I thought it was kind of evil to

call him that. You know, I had a stuttering problem when I was younger. I kind of felt bad at first, but then I realized it wasn't, it wasn't, you know, heredity or anything or genetic because he didn't so much Coke. I mean, he couldn't talk right. So I go over here, do a dump it on and he's like, he's going, he's like kind of a little flip it with me. So I always, I carried a piece. After a while, I carried a piece because some of these guys would get robbed. I'm thinking, I'm not getting robbed, you know, I'm going to protect myself.

I had to. Initially, I carried it legally. And then eventually, when I bought my bar 93, I had to permit. But early on, I didn't have a permit. So he's in here, did this and that, I'm in a holland. I said, look, dude, I said, if I come in here again and that back doors, I'm like that, I said, there's going to be some problems in this place. Oh, out of out of yeah, man, he's all hot.

And he wasn't getting when I was saying. So I had grabbed him and I'd like shove him against the wall. And his imprint of his shoulders and head were in the wall. I wasn't like drywall. It was like this thin wood grain. They kind of shook him a little, you know. And I said, I mean it, man. I said, you know, we got a hundred grand invested in this business, your business.

and you're you got that door open and there's prostitutes and there's coke in here I said you know we're making five we're making five to ten grand week and so is he you know plus we're getting our note back from if we're getting another five grand so we're doing pretty good from one spot you know right but I said you're not going to eff it up for us you know and uh don't tell sunny I'm like yeah I'm going to tell sunny man this is boy you know I'm not dealing with this shit because it happened a couple times so when I tell sunny this he's like I got an idea we're going to because we're going to put you in there. I'm like, dude, I'd love to own a bar one day, but I'm not getting involved with Richie, man. He's something bad's bound to have because he's like, that's a problem. You can, you can keep control of it. I said, I'm not, I'm not dealing that shit, you know. I don't need that, you know. It's not me. I'm not doing that, you know.

So he goes, well, you know, we'll figure this out. So a couple weeks went by and he heard about it. He's like, he didn't like me because, you know, I shoved around, slapped around one night, told him, I'm not tolerating this shit, you know. Right. So he finds this guy. This guy named Paul Monk started hanging in there. And he was an insurance company.

And we checked him out in all. And he actually had a pretty good idea because we're making so much money in this one joint. We're only allowed to have three poker machines back there because certain sizes of bars. You can only, you're a limit one, depending on the size two. This place, we could only have three. So we had guys there lined up waiting to, you know, they're waiting to play. People are playing. They're waiting to give us money, you know?

just here's a bucket just throw your money in a bucket you know but um so he had a brilliant idea they went to buy this bar down the street was for sale was about a mile away and they said hey we can put two machines in there and we'll run an after hours joint down there too you know that was paul monk's idea and he and he had a little bit of money so he approached me and sunny about it and uh and we're and you know we're thinking okay you know and ira too but ira was always sunny ran the show iir was like an after fact that's what we're doing ire you know is that is that is that to run the other guy out of business no No, no, no, no, to partner with him.

We thought he would straighten them out because this guy had a legitimate insurance company. He was an insurance man, so insurance. So we're thinking like, okay, this guy's, you know, he's a straight cheer. He knows Dickie, he says he can keep under control, Richie, and I'm sorry, Richie. And they'll buy the other joint down the street. So they bought that and things would be going a couple, a couple months went by. Things are going, okay. Then I get wind that Paul Monk is a big Coke dealer.

And I'm thinking like, oh shit, this is letting the fox in the henhouse. Right. Because Richie's got a Bay of Coke problem. So Sonny's like, you've got to go straight in this out. I'm like, you're the one that started. You're the one that. And it's his company, but he kept pushing more and more on me. And like I said, I was, you know, I was drinking a lot back.

We drank a lot. And if I wasn't drunk, I probably was hung over. And I was just out of the military and I had a real bad. I mean, short few. I had a short few. I'm out of short few years. I'm out as calm as I am now. But I mean, I like would like my wife would say you were just terrible.

I mean, she would say you were terrible back then. I mean, I just had a bad. I would snap in a second. Like now, like people can't believe what? You did that stuff? I'm like, yeah, but I was, you know, now I got low tea on one medication. I can't do that shit anymore. So, so I had to go.

He goes, go talk to Paul. I'm like, what do you want me to say? You know, they're keeping these guys in there all night, both places. We're making over 15,000 a week. And it's like no work. Just stay out of trouble, guys. you know, keep the door locked. So I go over there and I talk to Paul and I said, look, man, I hear you, you know,

selling a lot of Coke and oh, well, yeah, that's, I say, I'm, I don't begrudge anybody to have to make a living, but I said, don't do it in these bars. I said, because, you know, we're the operators in here. If you get shut down, we're out of business. Right. So I said, there's got to be a happy median, you know, you can't, because, well, you know, we're keeping the, I said, I get it. I get it.

I understand the guys are in here. You got the broad. You got the Coke, you know. and I it was crazy what I said I said just keep a limit on how much coke you have in here that's what I said so I'm thinking like I mean what am I supposed to say you know so it wasn't it wasn't probably a month I get another phone call at my house and it was Richie you call me and he said Paul Monk got murdered and I'm like what he goes can you any new I had I had a you know 20 gauge I carried with me at 38 night o'clock and I'm thinking oh shit And I'm thinking like, because Sonny started, I was stepping on people's toes, other operators, wasn't paying people when he bought some accounts. I'm thinking like, man, this guy's going to get me fucking, he's going to get me in a bad way. So I go over there and second time I'm talking to police. And I go over there and, you know, the tapes up and all.

And this was, this make the news and the paper, this murder is still unsolved. It's murder never got solved. And I go over there, police like, who is how are you? You know what I'm thinking? Like, I just pulled up. I said, oh, I'm acquainted. I didn't say I was the machine operator. It said, I'm, but his friends, you know, I'm his friends.

And then Richie steps in and says, I just called him off. He was asleep at his house. And he's like, is that true? And I said, call my wife. But my wife wouldn't answer the phone because whenever I would leave like that, I'd say, don't answer the phone, don't answer the door because she didn't know what I was doing or where I was going. I said, call my wife.

She was, she was there. I was in bed, you know. So we find out, you know, it, the rumor was a, it was a hit. We find that later on, like months later, it was a, you know, a professional hit that he was dealing Coke in Jersey and his girlfriend died of an overdose from his stash. And his girlfriend was a daughter of a connected guy in New Jersey. And he swore at his trial. He got off. There was no manslaughter.

It was like an accidental overdose or whatever. And the father to trial swore to get even. And it took like five years and he finally did. That's what we're assuming. That's what we're hearing. But it's still an unsolved. It's an unsolved murder to this day. I mean, it's, it hadn't been solved.

So that, that spooked, that spooked me. And, and that, that there, like I said, we didn't know at first what was going on. For years, I slept with my 38 and my pillow and, you know, because you never, we never knew what was going on. We, you know, we didn't know, you know, early on it, Sunny had something to do or piss somebody off and all. So that was causing issues with, with him and his partner. And then the icebreaker was, we had, it was like six, probably not six, six, seven months later. um sunny was a bit of a gambler so we're hanging at whatever our joints you know hanging out he's you know could we go there spend money let him know we're spending money in your your account

you know where we had the machines and he gets when he gets when that uh there's this gambling parlor after our was gambling parlor you know uh over you around the corner off harford road from where we're at he goes get my car kiddo we're going over there i'm like dude it's like two in it's like two in a morning man you know because we had to stay out and you know mingle and he's looking for broads. I'm just with him because he's telling me to come with him, you know. And I guess eventually I'm kind of his muscle in a way because he's got me in, he's got me in fights.

He's got me in situations that, you know, that normally I wouldn't be involved in. But he goes, we're going over there, brother, we're going to do some gambling. So he gives me 20, he gives me 25,000. So I got it in my jacket. And we go over this place and it's this, it's an old stinking garage off like Hartford Road. And I'm thinking like, what are we doing here? And it had a second floor, had metal steps to go up to the second floor.

And I'm looking, there's like BMWs or Jaguars or Mercedes. I'm thinking like, man, what the hell? These nice cars doing this dirty-ass little garage, you know? And he says, we're going up there. I'm like, okay, so we walk up these steps. And you knock on the door and this big guy answers it with, he had a holster and had a gun in his holster. He's like, yeah.

And Sunday's like, rolling. All right, come in. I'm thinking like, what's how are we getting into? But we walked in this place. It's over a dirty garage, it's the second floor. We walk in there, and it's probably like maybe 1,800 square feet, roulette wheel, you know, poker tables. They had chips. It was just like a mini Vegas in there.

Girls were walking around half naked with carrying drinks. Right. These two big, Italian guys with the chains and the goal were walking around, talking everybody. And it was rolling his game, but these two Italian guys were bankroll in the place. And so Sonny's, you know, he's gambling. He's gambling. He gave me another five, give me the five, give me the five, you know. And so four or five o'clock in one rolls around, I said, dude, man, I get the kid to freak out of here.

I said, my wife, you know, he's going to tolerate me getting home five o'clock in the morning, you know. He's like, oh, you're with me, brother, everything's cool, you know, like, that was wearing on my wife. They were sort of wearing my wife, you know, getting home, you know, nothing good happens after 2 o'clock. I went to bar. Are you still making $35,000 a year? No, no. When I started collecting, he gave me like a $2,000 a month per diem. Oh, okay.

You know, but see, then he would always throw these little little things in there, like when I would think about getting out, like when I was going to get married, Phil's, Phil's like, I'm paying for the catering hall and the caterer. Oh, thanks, Phil, the judge. And Sonny's like, well, I'm paying for the band for four hours. I'm taking you to Las Prices, Mexico for 10 days. And that place was like Lifestyles of Rich and famous during the 1990s. Robin Leach, you know, it was 10,000 bucks a week. Limo rides, rent a Jeep. He paid for everything.

So he would do things like that. to try to keep me corralled, you know, and then throw me money, throw me money. Oh, here's this, that you had a good week. Here's another, you know, two or three. I'm thinking like, and you get like, it's like a high in a way, you know, you just, you know, you know, I'm thinking like, I was thought like am I doing enough, but then I realized, yeah, I'm doing enough because he's put me in bad spots, you know, you know, where I could, you know, somebody could shoot me or stab me or or come at me.

Yeah, what happened to the, what happened to law enforcement? Well, that's, that was, I was, I was. was hooked. I mean, I was hooked. I mean, I was hooked. I mean, but after, so we go to this gambling Paul, right? And I say, I got to go at 5 o'clock in the morning. So Roland dropped me on my car, go home. My wife gave you some shit, you know, I'm like, hey, it's part of the job, you know, he called me sick. And God, there was no, was you have a cell phone? No cell phones. Nice. Nice. No, no. No, no. There was no, there was no. You didn't have to hear anything until you got home. So I got home. So I got home. Yeah, of course, she was never up, but she heard everything.

oh you got what time's you get home to oh it was five so she did you know she she everything so so he called I laid my head down he calls me at six and he's like on the house phone like what's up you goes brother you got to do my route man you got to go room around I'm all I'm over here still I said I'm sorry man I mean I knew how to collect his route I knew you know because every every account was different there's a different deal how much money they owed you what the cut was 60 40 50 50 so I learned all that stuff because I've been here you know a couple years so I'm running his wrap out, and then I get back to the shop, and Janice is like, uh, these two guys are calling here.

This guy, they're calling making threats. So what are you talking about? They have like accents saying, we're sunny, you know, you know, it's his money, supposed to come by, da, da, da, da. So sunny calls the shop, hey, meet me over here at Bellock Diner. So I go over there. He looks like shit. And I, you know, we get a call for you. He goes get a coffee, have breakfast.

He didn't even touch his. He looked like in a bad way, smoking one after another. He's like, dude, man, I lost 30 grand. It's like, no shit. I was carrying 25 up before you. He said, no, I barred 30 from the house, a little 60,000. I'm like, holy shit. I said, well, I guess you got to pay these guys.

He's like, fuck, am I paying them shit? I'm like, you're not paying them shit. I said, these guys were Italians, right? She's like, yeah, I don't give a fuck. I'm like, I don't believe in Italians. I'm like, dude, I said, if they're connected, you know, there's going to be hell to pay, you know. He's like, just bring your, bring your shit down tomorrow. You bring your shit tomorrow with me.

We're going to straighten this out, meaning my. my revolver my my my shotgun was a was a 20 gauge it was pistol grip it was legal but it was short it could fit fit for the rope and under jacket it could um if you needed to I was just say that's the problem with getting away with behaving like that for so long you start thinking you're invincible and I can do whatever I want like I said you know he thought he was connected we weren't we weren't the mob we were it was organized but we weren't the Italian mob but right these guys kind of operated like that you know the guys in the group so I'm running with them that day we're doing collections these guys are still calling the shop we get back and he hides his car in the in the garage which is he never does usually we kept the cigarette van and some other stuff in there he pulls it right in the garage and hides it i'm thinking that's at first he's never hit his car before so they're calling they're calling the car and ir's like what's going on what's going on he goes irs like these guys are calling they said something about you owe him 30 grand and

all and he goes ah don't worry about it i are you know fuck i'm i ain't paying them and so ir's like look tell them you're not paying them we don't we don't want the problem we don't want the problem here He said, don't even worry about it. Just don't answer the phone. Don't answer the door. So I'm in the back. It was a shop. Sonny had the secure office because you have all the county machines were there, the safes were there, and it had a secure door.

Ira had the front office, you know, which, you know, people could come right in, you know. And I was behind the office and a door to ran to the shop right behind Ira's office. And I'm sitting back in her chair with my freaking 20 gauge and I'm praying, I'm praying these guys will come in and cause a problem. You know, I'm thinking like, you know, this is like the word. How are you going to explain this? This is like, if you have to shoot somebody, how do you explain it? Yeah, how do I explain this, you know? Yeah, how do we explain it?

So, uh, we hear the door buzzer ringing. And mind you the shop, the shop was secure because it was like a nondescript building down an alley in a bad part of the city. No, there's no, no description. Steel door, a little window with metal grates on it and a buzzer. And you had a buzz and that intergon system. You didn't get in that shop unless you got buzzed in. It was a steel door.

You weren't pronged that door open. That's how secured this place was. So we hear the buzzer go off. And Janice is like, the mail lady's here. So, oh, let her in. You know, I was like, let her in. So I'm listening. And then she comes in.

I hear this freaking scuffling. So these two, these two Italian guys, they're coming in. They're waiting outside. They're coming in. I hear Sonny slammed his door shut in that office because it's secure. Right. So they come in. We're looking for Sonny.

They had the heaviest, heavy Italian accent. We're looking at a sunny, you know. And Janice was ready to say he was in the office and the IRA said, oh, wait a minute, he's not here. Can I help you guys? He's trying to like, quash it. So he's come in and sit down and all. And they come in, they sit down.

I have my ear to the door. And they're like, okay, we need, uh, your partner owes us 30,000. But sent him to the past yesterday, it's 35 and we're here to collect. And ours, like, hey, you know, that has nothing to do with me. That's, you got to see Sonny. You know, it's not. They're like, no, no, no, no. You don't understand.

We're collecting 35 today from you, from Sonny. Doesn't matter. We're getting our 35,000. And I'm like, and I was like, I couldn't see him, but I could imagine what he was doing because I'm listening through the door. I could hear him get out of his chair and kind of stand up probably saying, what are you going to do? This is 1993.

What are you going to do? Well, hell break loose. They start, they tap with him. They start wild. They are beating the shed in. Because I could hear him. He was in distress. I didn't hear Sonny's door open.

I'm thinking like, what the hell? This guy is going to get beat. They could get $35,000 in a hospital. And I couldn't let it happen. I mean, I didn't really like I, but he didn't deserve a beating for Sonny. So I cracked that door open. I had my shock and I cocked it.

And a shell came out to let him know was loaded. And they stood up. It wasn't the first time they saw a gun. I know that. They stood up. And he's like, what are you going to do? And I said, take one more step and you're going to find out. And they just stood and looked at me.

Now, my jia, it was kind of surreal. I tell a story one of the one of the YouTube things I do. When I went through that door, I was scared. I was nervous. I'm thinking, what am I going to, you know? And it was like everything stood still. it was like slow motion and I swear it's funny but I swear

I could smell urine that guy or pissed himself cheap Italian colon and gar like I mean I swear and then it's kind of but because these guys were you know tang with the musk and all that shit and then when I when I swung that gun around I told the guy take one step you can find out

he believed me and they had their hands up they slowly backed out of there and he said we'll be seeing you later I said, get the fuck out. So they walked out. I'm thinking, oh, what the fuck? It was like the world, the weight of the world came up my chest, but then it was a whole new problem. Yeah.

I was going to say, well, he just got you into some shit. Oh, I said, he comes out of his office. Oh, man, Paul, he saved the day. I said, save the day. I said, these guys are going to kill me. They're probably going to kill you. I said, we don't know if these, we know they're Italian. We don't know if they're connected or not.

He said, oh, no, don't worry about it. I'll take care of it. I said, you'll take care of it. You should have paid these guys. So like you said, we were. Yeah, like you just take care of it just now? Just like, yeah, you're hiding in the office. You're not willing to take care of it.

No, he's hiding. He always, I mean, he always talked a big game. And, but usually I was there. So he threatened somebody like one, one bookmaker, he had seven grand to. He won 10 the previous month, a guy he would lay off bets with. And he won 10 and he lost seven. And then the guy's like, you know, you're going to seven. He said, fuck you.

And then so we show up a, real quick, we show up at a bar one night and the guy picks a fight with him. And of course, I'm not going to let him get the, I beat the guy up. I knocked out of there. And he, for my, for my, what I did, he gives me 2,000 cash. I'm like, what was that all about? He goes, I told the guy, you know, come get the money, you know, kick my ass. I ain't paying you. And I said, what the hell are you going to do if I wasn't here?

He goes, well, I wouldn't have been here, brother, unless you were here. So shit like that, he was getting me these situations. So anyway, back to the story, he's like, I'm going to straighten this out. I'm going to straighten this out. I said, you better do something, man, because, you know, This is like four in the afternoon when it came in. I said, they opened up over about eight, you know, when it got dark. I said, you've got to get the ships straight now.

So like I said, we knew we paid off politicians. You know, I personally paid all politicians. They called, they always called campaign donations. Whatever, it made it feel good. They slept good at night because of it. That's great, you know. And he would call on some favors. And he, and through Phil, you know, we knew some police commanders.

And this was over in Baltimore County. And so they had told them, Look, have somebody go over there tonight when they start, you know, partying, get going and have somebody call from the pay phone and say, you heard shots fired this address. And we'll send the cavalry over there. So, of course, he's looking at me. I had to go over there. It was between 8, 9 o'clock at night when they got started. Hey, shots were fired.

Somebody screaming, run out of the place. And I kind of hung back. And they came over there. I mean, all the police were like, and they busted a place out. It's a legal gambling operation, you know. Right. You know, your roulette wheel, all that, it's all the shit poker, you know, so they get busted up. So these guys had, these guys had a history, these two Italian guys.

So they shipped them out. They shipped them out pretty quick. Like I said, he had to pay somebody that had this taken care of politically. And so like three days go by. So we knew an associate in town that was with the New Jersey outfit. This guy was named Johnny Palano. He had a sub shop. We were on Hartford Road.

We would eat there a lot. Sonny would bet with him. This guy wouldn't take less than $500 a game. So this guy we knew it was connected. So Sunday goes, you need to go over there, me, and talk to John and see, you know, if these guys were anybody he knew. I said, you come with me. He's like, oh, no, no, no, you can take care of it.

And I'm thinking, like, you know, I'm packing my 38, but I think like, I can't have a beef with this guy. He's an associate. He's not a maid guy, but he's an associate. And we knew that because we see jersey tags, a black sand, will come down once a month. behind this sub shop and he did his deal. He was one of the biggest bookmakers of Baltimore County. And it was funny.

When we got every good for lunch, he'd be in silk shirt, silk pants, silk shirt, white apron, clean. You know, gold watch, gold jewelry, you know, the dark hair, you know, on the phone, doing that talk and come out and talk to us. Because, you know, Sonny would bet with him. He talked to Sonny. He knew Sonny had a venue business. Never a spot of grease or dirt on. But we knew he was connected at outfit. So we go over there.

Well, I go over there. And I'm having lunch. She comes over to my table. This is three or four days after this happened. And he comes over, he's smiling at me. I'm sitting at the table. I'm eating. And I'm nervous.

I'm thinking like, you know, I could be in a bad spot right here. You know, show my face because I put with a gun on these guys. And he comes there. He starts smiling at me. I said, Johnny, can help you with something? He's like, he's like, I heard what happened. I'm thinking like, you did. What did you hear?

He goes, I heard it all. I said, oh. He's like, you're, like, you're. lucky I said what do you mean I'm playing that what do you what do you mean I'm like he goes those guys or anybody uh important he goes they were kind of like they're trying to set up camp themselves they weren't affiliated with anybody that he knew because john would know that because he's with he's with the group up in up in jersey and he says uh goes uh you goes you're you're lucked out this time and I said I looked at him I said uh better lucky than day

said yeah he said yeah you know and uh that was like that was the that was the that was the final straw that him and his partner they split they split because you know i was like this is too much because he he acted like a made guy people would you know he always had you know five six thousand dollars in his in his you know a roll in his pocket and he always had 30 40 grand in the trunk and people knew that and he's lucky you never got you never got jacked I mean, but then again, whenever I was with them, I had a piece. So, um, so these guys split. They, they split because of that, you know, uh, and, you know, me and the guy named Stickley,

of another mechanic went with him. We kind of, we went our own way. And, uh, this is where it gets interesting. Um, so he's, you know, I'm doing more stuff. The police has been gone. That's done. You know, that's, I'm making too, I'm making too much money. I mean, we're looking to build a house.

I mean, you know, I'm just, I'm full with money, you know. Right. So, uh, I'm, I'm, thinking like it's not it's not going to last forever just bank some money put some money away so i'm doing everything so i started noticing these um these crown vicks like outside my apartment in the morning at certain accounts i went to we would always go to these accounts like super early in the morning before anybody's stern you know because we were collecting we were getting out because we have always we're carrying a lot of cash and they're like at the account they're you know i'm thinking like

man you know for about a month a month that you went by i'm seeing all these crown vicks so when he comes in town to settle one of his little trips with one of his girls and i said uh hey man i'm i'm seeing these crown vicks everywhere you know something's up uh if you see much too much tv you know there's no there's nothing going on you know i'm like because he's 20 years my senior he knows better i'm like dude i'm in a trenches i don't know better i feel like he doesn't know about well i found out he started doing he starts doing coke right but you always swore he never did you know so i i don't you know, you know, I drank a lot, you know, I had my thing, but I said, I was trying to tell him what's going to. So finally he goes, I'm going to arrive with you. See, I'm going to,

I'm going to come with you one more and I'm going to collection. So, all right, y'all pick you up. So the first stop we went to was a place called Brandon's Pub off Harvard Road in the city. And I always would drive around because it's early. I didn't, you don't know if anybody's going to try to hit you, you know, you know, rob you. Because we, I had the van stolen. I had my house attempt to break it into because you never knew, you don't know what's going to happen, you know, because these guys are watching you don't know they're watching you so i drive around the block first before i park so this time he's in the car with me we're driving down a road to go around the block and i park and i see a crowned dick down the street and i'm like right there see it and he's like oh shit

he's like he's like down in the seat i'm thinking like he's like man you weren't kidding i said see the two antennas so when we did her thing and drew by he's like look and he sees the antennas in the back you know so he's like okay yeah so this just be careful and all you know so after a while I stopped seeing him. I stopped seeing him. So he's thinking everything's copacetic. Okay, maybe they didn't get anything. They're putting the indictment together.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they didn't get anything. They got the surveillance done. Yeah. Yeah. So he gets, he goes home. This is months and months later. He goes home.

I'm trying to think of the year. 94. It's going into 95, 94 to 95. He goes home, you know, be the dad, the good husband, you know, on Friday. And he goes to his mail. And then he calls me up Saturday night and says like two in the morning because we had to meet for breakfast. I'm thinking like, oh, Tuesday when you come in town? No, now.

Like now? Yeah, in an hour, Bell locked on. Target letter? So I go meet him. He has a, he should have never got this letter. His lawyer said, you should have never got this letter. It was from the phone company. Like, say, I'd say it was like C&P telephone company or whatever.

And it said he highlighted it. First, he gives me this letter. from the phone company. And I'm trying to make it stream tomorrow. I'm trying to make a joke. I said, oh, you need to pay your phone bill? No, no, read this. And it says, the federal government has no longer requested wiretaps of your phone.

And his lawyer said, you should have never got that letter from the phone company. You should have never got that. So as lawyer said, you know, when you work and all, you say, well, you know, I'm in town most of the week. I'm going home on the weekends you do as well. I bet you, you know, a bucket of money that whoever you're talking to daily, me, my house phone, my bar phone because I had the bar at this time and her shop phone as well as his phone. He goes, everybody's phone's tapped. He goes, you never, you never, I didn't get a letter, but they, they messed up where he lived in Virginia. He got that letter by mistake. So then he's like,

he's like super, super, super, super, super uptight, you know, so we're going, you know, he's having me do more stuff. He's trying to be in the background more, more than any more than what he was. And then so time's ticking, times ticking, times ticking, times ticking. And, um, and, um, he's always said like one time when I was like I'm out and I'm getting out I think it was after the Italian thing he's like oh brother this is what he kept me in that again when I'm done I'm giving everything to you I'm just going to give it to you just hang in here a couple more years I just say if a few more million I'm done see we'd always it was always this thing he's going to give me something or do something for me buy me a gift take me on a trip so he starts

like hey man I think I'm you know I think I'm ready to get out you know I said what about the feds you go I go what about the feds he's like oh man they got nothing you know all this time all this time's passed they got nothing you know he's leaving that for you're the one collect you're the one putting the machines in you're the one collecting everybody in you for years i'm going to i'm going to the meetings with the guys the other operators my face is out there he goes i'm thinking about i turn everything over to you and on i said i'm thinking he's going to turn it over he goes yeah all i want is oh i want is a 200 grand I'm thinking like motherfucker 200 grand I said you told me for years you're going to give me this business we are done I said now you're going 200,000 I said because well think about it I said I thought about it I don't want it I don't want it at that point we stopped talking I'm working for him right we're not talking I go to the shop he leaves me notes do this do this do this if he had to call me you call me so I'm now like everybody else that you screwed over I'm a right piece of

shit right because i wouldn't get sucked into this so one day i go over the office and he has uh now i had the bar he'd loan me 25 000 to buy the bar when i bought it in 93 this is like 95 i paid him back already it was his equipment in there but it was you know we'd split i never signed a contract with him and um he's like uh you know we need to work something out you know i'm trying to sell i'm gonna piece off on my stuff the other guys the other operators they'll buy some of their stuff you know that's what you do he didn't tell them why the feds were on them yeah he'd said hey i'm going to retire you want to sell my stuff so part of the stuff part of what he went to sell was my place to curbshop and i was making he was making three grand a week out of my

place which is a good stop you know it's a decent stop and um i said that's not part of the deal he goes oh yeah yeah all i did for you i said they ain't fucking happen it's not part of yeah well we'll get it all worked out so he storms out of the office so i guess the week later i went over there and um prior to that one of the one of the guys that worked for uh rock kind vending he's like he was the biggest operator in the state he had 150 he was making 150 150 200 000 a week back of the 90s in cash and uh one of his guys came over to see me at the bar i was at the curbshop he said hey paul you knew me he was hey you know i'm just following up on this list of bars that sunny has you know he's selling i said yeah yeah i know

know he's selling you know because you don't want to I said nah I'm content I got this bar I'm content I'm making good money you know because okay goes well he goes you're like the fifth he goes you're like the fifth one on the list I had to come check out and I said uh I said my my place isn't my my place is on that list it's not part of it he goes oh he said it is right here he said it's it's part of the package you know worth the 200 grand he goes it's a good stop you know if it you're not on the list it's going to affect the price I said I don't get a fuck what it what it what it does I said I'm out on the So when I went to the office on a Friday, like the week later after I met this guy,

of course, he wouldn't, he wouldn't talk to me on the phone. I tried to call him. He wouldn't talk to me. So in the office was a contract. It said sign, big letter sign, you know, explanation point. And it was a vending agreement for five years with bills of view, his company. He wouldn't even sign it so he can say, yeah, I got him under contract. It's part of that bundle of me selling all the bars of the accounts I have.

so I ripped it up I ripped it up left my keys there on his desk and I had a key to lock the door I locked the door and I threw it through the mail slot I'm like fuck him you know so I go home as soon as I got home he came to the shop he called my wife's on the phone he's yelling and screaming he's causing up my wife I'm thinking like his sister-in-law I'm like he has no right to do that right at all to do that and I get on the phone and I get on the phone and so what's going on he goes you son of a bitch all I've done for you but I'm about this Yeah, yeah. He's going through the whole thing. I said, dude, you let me $25,000. I paid you back. I said, you let, lent drug addicts, you know, all kinds of crazy people, you know, 50, 100 grand. And, you know, the other way you got your money back, you had to sell the account and try to do something with it. So I said, and I'm family. I said, I said, I'm not, because you owe me, you owe me, you go to sign this. She goes, well, you owe me, you go me something, you know, it's my equipment in there. All, you got to come straightening this out. He was like a, he was like a, you know, like a, you know, like a. a dog, you know, back to the corner, a rabbit dog.

I mean, and I knew that. He had a previous federal charge years ago. I found out later on when I was working for him for fraud, you know, so he couldn't legal own a handgun, but he had a hit at M-11-A-1. He kept in a drawer in his office. I knew he had that. But like I said, I always, he knew I always had a gun on me. So I put my 30 in my pocket and I went to see him.

And I go in there and he's sitting at the desk smoking. He goes, we got to work this out. He goes, I said, are you calm or otherwise I'm not coming in? He said, yeah, yeah, we're going to work this out. You know, I want you to sign this contract. All I did for you and all, I said, I said, I ain't sign any for a contract. So I don't sign anything. You owe me.

I said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I said, all I owe you is the equipment I have in that bar. It's your equipment. It's your equipment. I agree to it. I could say, F you, screw you walk out, try to get it back. But I said, no, I'm not, you know, I'm not like that. You know, I did some creepy shit, but I'm not like that as a person.

I said, what do you want for the equipment? 20 grand. I give you $20,000 for the equipment. And I said, well, you owe me the business and all. That's worth money and all. I said, I'll give you $20,000 for the business for lost income. Well, it's worth more. I said, that's all you're getting.

I said, take that or you can get nothing. I said, take that or you're getting shit. So then he starts threatening me. You can't be at your bar all the time and this and that. You know, I knew what he was capable of, but what he was capable of, of things that I had done or paid people to do. We paid people to go on, smash bars up. I go back, backtrack with one story involving a retired cop.

But I knew what he was capable of. And he had other people that would do things. People would do things for $100. I mean, there's some sick of individuals out there. So he starts threatening me, you know, you can't be that bar all the time in your house and I did die. And I said, look, motherfucker. I said, you have more to lose than I do.

And I said, if anybody comes around my bar, looks at me the wrong way, threatens me, threatens my wife, you know, if I even think something's going on, I said, you're not going to be around to take care of your family. And at that time, I clicked my robber in my hand in my pocket, and he knew I had my hand in my gun in my pocket. And he just got white. He just turned white. And he was a golfer.

He always had a tan. And he just kind of looked at me. And I said, I'll send you, I said, I was sending you the money. I said, this is the last time we're talking. And I backed him up out of there. And I said, he was godfathered my son and my oldest. But when I split, he was three. My son, I have two sons, date, my son never met him, never had.

And, you know, how my kids found out. about this that uh they know me as this jovial bar owner you know michael phelps who's come in my bar the ex-governor maryland would come in my bar judges lawyers stone mason street people uh radio personalities i mean i was this i wasn't that guy everybody knew me as this bar owner who catered for little events for people and all for judges for sheriffs supported the police and uh you know they didn't know they didn't know me as that and my i started writing a a book you years ago. I wasn't a writer, but it was in a box. And my, the only way my kids found about this, about this lifestyle, because my wife and me

never talked about it, because we didn't see that side of the family or side of the family, that he found this box. My oldest, he was 14 at the time. He's 28 now or 29 now. And he started reading some of the stuff. And he's like, is dad, is anything this stuff true? You were in this business and all? And I'm like, yeah, some of it is. I said, you know, some of us embellops, you know, Bellas for story stories and all. But that's kind of how he found out about it when when i sold everything in 16 2016 and you know bucket list i wanted to write a book i did write a book you know it's more more fictional you because of legality things and then i wrote a screenplay that's more true to the story so then i started doing this stuff talking about it

you never talked to him again no what what happened with the federal case did he ever get indicted i'm glad you asked that very you're very very cute And I split from in 20, and I thought I was out. I thought it was out. This is 1996. So 2000, I was building a 3,500 square foot house, my dream house. I mean, I showed enough money for how I was living, you know. Right.

That's one thing he never did. We always butted heads. He would put 10,000 cash in the bank, like every week. And I'm like, dude, you can't, you're going to, you know, you can't do that at a week. Yeah. Don't tell me. You don't know what you're, you don't know what you're, oh. okay, I don't know what I'm doing. Whatever. I don't know. So, I mean, I showed 110,000 plus income every year and I had a settlement from an accident and I was in. So I had, you know, I had money. So I'm building this house and I'm in an apartment. My kids, both my kids were little. And the phone rings the apartment. And it's, it's, uh, hello, Mr. Schiffauer. This is agent Smith with the, uh, internal revenue service. I said, oh. So what could I do for you? She goes, we need to come see tomorrow at this. She knew, you need to address.

the apartment I was in. She knew I was building a house. And I said, 685, 2022. She goes, what's that? I said, it's my attorney. Click. She slammed the phone down. And you know, from dealing with things, sometimes your attorney might get you, you know, you call, you may get them then, an hour later. He may call you later in a day, maybe the next day. It wasn't five minutes. My attorney's only calling me. She's like, Paul, this is Sydney. I said, yeah, he goes, you know what it's about. And I said, yeah. about my brother-in-law, ex-bril-law. I haven't seen or talked to him in four years.

He said, they inform me. They're coming to talk to you tomorrow at your apartment at 10 a.m. Or they're going to drag you before a grand jury in northern Virginia. He's like, what do you want to do? I said, he goes, you want me to be there? I said, no. I said, I can, I, you know, I said, I can answer questions. I know what to say and what I have to say.

So they show up 10 on the dot, sharp, knock on the door, boom, boom. I'm on the bottom. We're in the apartment, like I said, waiting for this. house that be built. They knock on the door and I let him in. Agent Smith shows her badge. The other guy shows a badge, doesn't say one word. And they sit down. He has a pat out. He's just, he's looking at me, taking notes. And she's asked me, you know, we had canceled checks. I wanted to pay him back his money in checks because I didn't want him come back saying that he owned that

property. Right. And he wanted to put a lien, you know, so I wanted to make sure he got checks. and I said it was for equipment and goodwill. I, you know, I wanted it document it. I didn't want him coming back on me. So they're like, oh, your laundering money for him and all. I said, where do you see that at? I said, I just told you, I bought some equipment. We split and I paid them back.

They had me going in these accounts. You were going in here, you know, about all the money was making. You know, we got you doing $30,000 deposits. I said, that was his business account. what it's not my money you know that she was like you know trying I you knew everything this other guys just sitting there staring at me doesn't say one freak of word he just sitting there looking at me to take a note seeing my reaction and then she says you know she's like oh well you know you know at about 45 minutes she's like oh you know you have the you have the curbshop on falls road

and you have you have two she knew the layout you have two poker machines in there and it's just us talking you know we know you pay off to your regulars you know just it's us us talking you know just it's us talking, you know, and I said, I say, hey, Agent Smith, that's great. You think you know what goes on my bar, but I said, I'm not going to say to answer questions and incriminate myself about any of that. I said, I agree to talk to you about Sonny. I've answered questions. I'm not talking about me. Right. I've answered everything you said, well, it's just us talking and all. And she's talking about my poker. She's got to say, I said, tell you what, I'm done talking. My wife's like, I didn't raise my voice. I was very calm. I said, I'm done talking. They're like, she like put her

chest out like oh we're like we're the feds you know you can't i said i know my rights i'm done talking you want anything else i said call my tourney and i'll talk through him have a nice day and they the guy slammed his pad and they're like we're leaving through the back door it was a slider you know and i said knock yourself out it says it's a little damp out back but knock yourself out out of it open a slider for him and they leave and my wife goes what that was that about going out the i said they're looking for something in plain sight a ming vase a Picasso, you know, looking for something of like value where they say, oh, we thought we saw Ming Vaz in there. You know, he says you and he makes so much money a year and he's building

this house and he's got all this. And I thought that was it. I thought that was it. So I go back doing my business and all and, you know, four years go by. I'm still running the curbshop. I'm, you know, doing my thing. I'm getting rid up in Baltimore Magazine for, you know, best burgers and things like that and what is the statute of limitations on this crime like i would think it would be five years that's why i was thinking what it took them it was four years later so they were trying to indict this guy within the five years now you're saying it's another four years four years go by they were still on them they were still on him he was doing he was still racketeering as long as you're doing racketeering it just continues i thought he would shut everything down and

no no he he saw he bought a nightclub He bought a strip club. Of course, when they had machines in there. So he just can't get right. No, he can't get right. So I didn't, I mean, I didn't know about, they told me that. So I got a call. I'm working at the bar.

And I'm in my house now, the big house. And she calls me. She said, this is Aiden Smith. I need to come serve you. I said, serve me for what? She goes, well, you're a material witness in the U.S. government versus Sunny Warner. And I said, for what?

She goes, we need to come serve you. You're a witness for the state, for the government. I'm thinking like, this is the state, not the feds? This is the feds for the Fed. I'm sorry, for the U.S. government. I'm thinking like, what the? I guess they wanted to just, they were asking people who knew about his background. Yeah.

I just think they would delay. He has a history of doing this stuff, you know. So I call my attorney up. And he's like, for what he says, look, they got, I don't know what was true or not. So we told me, he says, they have 30 days to serve you. When they notice, when they notify you saying, we're serving you. He said they got 30 days. I don't know if it's true or not.

That's what he told me. But it ended up. It worked out that way because I'm like, I mean, I needed to lose weight at the time. I lost 15 pounds real quick because you know, you know, you're pacing. And I, I knew because I saw that poker machines in my place, my bar. So I knew what I'm doing. I'm money laundering, you know, rack. I'm doing.

I'm doing what I'm doing. Right. But I'm just doing it for myself. I'm not doing it for his operation. So my attorney's like, you don't. know what they're going to ask you, you know, if you got to, you're up on that stand. And I said, yeah. And I said, he goes, you better hope you comes a plea. And it was all over, it was all over the media. He had like 23 counts against them. So the time's clicking down one week,

two weeks. He's calling me every day. She serve you. She serve you. Are you dodging her? No, I said, she goes, no, she goes, I'm going to come serve you at 30 Berkshire Drive. That's where my house was. Like I said, it was like my dream house, you know, everything I wanted. You know, you're saying it later. And I'm like, you know, agent Smith, just, I said, Just come to the bar. She goes, no, no, no, I want to serve at your house. I said, I'm never there. I work 15 hours a day. I said, you go waste. I said, let you get to come in the middle of the night. I said, you're wasting your time. I'm doing your favor. Come serve. I didn't want her coming to my house. For her to justify how I'm living or, you know, because I had expensive furniture. I don't want her walking around my house. So she agreed, okay, I'll come serve you at a bar. So, you know, there's like a week left. My attorney's calling me. No, she hadn't come by. Two days, two days, two days. before he said this thing was going to end. It's all over the radio, all in the papers, cop the plea. Nice.

24 down to three. Money laundering, illegal gambling, failure to pay taxes. He got 18 months in the feds. Oh, come on. That's nothing. We got 18 months. All the stuff he did, you know, he could have got more. And like when we split up, you know, his argument was, I forgot to say this.

Part of his anger pitch was, you know, you got, I got all, he's like, I got all this shit on you, all the shit you've been doing, you know, you've been doing this, doing that. And I said, knock yourself out. I did it for you. I said, so I said, you're going to implicate yourself. Go ahead. Talk about it. I'll tell him, you want to me to do it. I got paid to do it.

Yeah, that's like the guy saying, I know about this, these two guys robin, robin banks. How do you know? I've been driving the getaway car. I'm driving the getaway car. Yeah, that's just. And I'm like, you know. And, I mean, I was so fortunate, you know, that like I said, I was interviewed by police a few times, the feds, the state. I'd been to court as a witness for forgery with him and some other things, and just as a witness.

So I've been to court and I've talked to authorities, but, I mean, knock on wood, I mean, I never was charged or indicted or, you know, prosecuted with anything. I mean, I was very fortunate with some of the stuff I got done. And it's fun, well, my co-writer of the novel, Darren Hobson, he's younger to me. And he's like, with all this technology nowadays, he's like, how did he's like, how do you get away with that? Karen a gun, point of gun people, threatening people. I said, I held up my cell phone. I said there weren't cell phones back now. You know, nowadays, you got a camera, got a video, you got a recorder.

Back then, banks had them. Banks had cameras, government buildings had them. not your average bar, your corner, your corner, uh, liquor store. I mean, so that's, that's how we got away with a lot of stuff. And I was fortunate, you know, to get out. I mean, I mean, lucky. I mean, lucky to get out and all the stuff I was involved in. So he went to, he goes to probably a camp somewhere.

Yeah, it was a camp. 18 months. He did, he did initially owe, he owed $600 some thousand dollars initially. Um, and then I knew. I know he's got a big home. He's got a $700,000 lien on his home for whenever he sells it. They can't, where he's at, it can't take his home from until he sells it. They can't, wherever he lives, it's like he's protected, what is called a term for it.

And then, Homestead. Homestead, yeah. He's a federal lien on there for his rest of the future. So whenever he sells it, he's got to, he's got to give that up. And even when I was still with him and he didn't want to pay, he didn't want to pay taxes on anything. He didn't want to show any income. I said, you know, this show. something and then if you show something you know they're not going to look as hard at you well there's a there's a

huge difference between tax fraud and making a mistake oh yeah exactly yeah like you're making an honest mistake yeah right i should have paid you know i wrote i took a bunch of deductions maybe i shouldn't have uh maybe i didn't declare quite as much cash as i thought i was i'm not very good with my books i thought i had claimed enough that was that's a that's a mistake let me fix it now as opposed to No, no, I'm actively dodging paying taxes. Now it's a felony. Now it's criminal. One's a mistake and I can pay a fine and make some payments.

The other one, I got to go to prison. He always thought he was smarter than everybody. And even when I would try to say with the, you know, the Crown Vicks and maybe an account wasn't happy or something, I was always full crap. I was, I'm in my 20s. He knows better. He's the man of the world. I'm like, whatever, dude. I'm just trying to help you out.

you know you know and i said i didn't like going to the bank and putting $10,000 in account they asked me for my id yeah that's it's not my it's not my money it's it's going to his account i said i told him i said i'm not doing that anymore he's like i'm your ball i'm like i'm not doing that yeah said i'm not doing that you know so uh there's other little stories and other little things he got me involved in that uh somebody would somebody could talk about some i can't talk about but um like You know, politicians like, I'm going to go back to where like these, when they had these meetings, when I, when the guys would meet, when they had problems, I'm kind of backtracking the, when I first started going to these sit downs with these guys, like the five major operators. So when we would go meet, first, they didn't like me going because they didn't know me.

Right. And he had explained to them that I'm, I'm his brother-in-law, you know, I'm family. Because like I said, everybody, you had any way you got in this business, you had to know somebody. your family or you were in the business or you grew up you grew up with this kid so it was kind of like the mob in a way from those avenues like you had to know these people but they weren't pricking your finger and they weren't burning a saint saying you know it wasn't any of that it was just like you know we know you know you we know you we know you're okay you know and uh they uh they were really careful who they let in their little things and and and and and and and

even what kind of kept me into which is kind of crazy that um it was like you ever play cops and robbers as a kid right yeah it was like playing cops and robbers for real because it was like kind of a maybe that kept me into the money and the allure of like you know you're you're looking over your shoulder all the time or you know some vagrants outside of one of the bars where you're going to go collect money and you're like okay is he a vagrant is he a cop is he a guy that's going to jump me when I come out because I I've been jump before I mean I We got jumped. I mean, one night, this is a night that I, another night I saved his ass,

we were leaving this bar and he had to have it run around with married women too. But he always, all these girls were my age. You know, he liked to date these young. And he's flipping the money around and they, oh, you know, girls come over to the money. Not all, but these types. And we left this bar this one night and these guys made a mistake. They jumped. The one guy that the girl was running with, this guy was a bodybuilder.

This guy was a big dude. and we come out and these guys are standing there there's like five guys and they fucking come at us he gets knocked down and these three guys are grabbing me punching on me and he's like down boom boom this guy's and like one guy kind of like

once a kidney punched me he's swinging low and he ah he hit my 38 with his fist and he said oh and I grabbed that and I pulled it out and I pointed to these three guys on me and I said back the fuck up

And I pointed at the two guys beating Sonny up or worn them. I said, get up. And they're like, they're scared. And I knew these guys weren't going to, they were young. They weren't going to do anything, you know. But we were getting her ass kicked. I wasn't about to go to the hospital. And I pulled it up.

And I wasn't going to shoot. Well, I'm going to shoot them. But they got up and I said, one guy's, what are you going to do? I said, unless you want to be left here, unless you want to be left here tonight, you better get the fuck out of here. and they ran off. That was another time I saved his ad. They put me in a bad spot.

And I was telling, somebody asked me about pulling a gun on somebody. And it's, if you pull a gun on somebody, you better be, you better be able to use it. And I'm, thank God I never had to use it.

Right. I mean, I'm thankful for that. Like, these guys were younger, I knew it would just scare them. Like in the movie, you scare them.

I didn't have to fire around in air. Just scare them they got out of it. because, like I said, we were, we were getting torn up. I mean, we were getting beat up pretty good. And that just got us out of the situation. And I always said, you know, if you pull, like, when I pulled the gun on those Italians, you know, I've got to be prepared for the repercussions. And thank God they didn't reach, they didn't reach it from you.

No, you can't let them take it from you. And thank God those guys and reached behind and pull gun out on me because I'd have to shoot them. I mean, and I didn't like, you know, I like I can tell my kids when I tell these stories when they were younger. I said, I didn't like being that guy, you know, and when, you know, and when, you know, shit got really bad and my, my oldest was three. You know, I went home one night and I looked at him. I said, you know, I don't want to be dead. I don't want to be in jail. I don't want to, you know, I got to get out of this. And at that time, I was pretty much not, you know, unscathed other than doing, you know,

doing this stuff. And I, and I mean, I waited to do to talk to people like this, you know, and promote the script I wrote after 2016, enough time. statute of limitations right you know I'm out of that I'm out of that that that stuff I haven't been involved in it so that's why I'm kind of talking about it now and I think it's kind of a it's kind of a unique store in a sense that I'm like it's not people think you know you know at one time I had a hundred grand in my trunk I had a deliver to a politician and you know if I lost it or somebody stole it I'm a deep shit you know and it's not like the move movies, oh man, that's so cool. It's not cool. It's scary. Yeah. You know, it's not. And I was

forced to get out and, and, you know, thank God I had, you know, had the bar and I did well there for years. And then, and like said, after a while, nobody, nobody, a couple years, nobody to remember me from that business at all being in that. Well, you know, one, it's, it's, uh, it's funny. It's a, I mean, I, you know, I'm from Florida. So I think, you know, it's like a cracker version of a of casino yeah in a way yeah i mean yes yeah it's it's and it goes on and then it's like people ask was the mob in baltimore somewhat but they couldn't like we we dealt with johnny polano he he was just bookmaking he's he didn't want the aggravation with the machines and all and these guys that we that were in this you know in this click they were on at 20 30 years so

they were entrenched with the politicians so the yeah the judge and they they were yeah and the judge you know, walk my wife down the aisle. In fact, he was so well-known, Congressman Dutch Rubbertsberger spoke at his funeral. I mean, this is how well-known this guy was. He knew everybody. And, you know, that kept me out of the, you know, situations too. And, but the Italians couldn't get a foothold because these guys are so entrenched.

They tried. I mean, they would try. But they just couldn't, you know, we had them run out pretty quick because they weren't connected like with the politicians at all. And they, and the reason also why we paid these guys. Every once in a while, they would try to throw a bill up, like, to outlaw the peg machines. Right. And they would do it.

They were doing it on purpose to get cash, you know. And we'd pay them too. Every few months, they kick in money because, well, maybe we'll make slots legal and outlaw the amusement pieces. Right. So they kick in cash. But now it's, now slots are legal in Baltimore. A lot of these old timers died that controlled these people. A lot of the older politicians died, you know, they had people in the Senate and, in,

Maryland, Annapolis in the house. These guys controlled it for a combination of 50 years. These guys passed away a number of years ago. So all these people that they knew that could control things, they're no longer there. So the slots kind of got in and these guys kind of went by the wayside. So what happened with your,

you're saying you wrote a book and you wrote a screenplay? Yeah. What happened with that or you're working on it? No, we wrote a book and we sold, I guess, like five or six hundred copies, which I didn't think was that great. I'm a nobody. somebody said, well, that's pretty good because usually it's just your mother,

your father, and your aunt. I said, well, if you put it that way, maybe that's good. I didn't think it was that good. And we wrote a, we were entered in some, a few contests for, for our, or actually, it's a, it's a pitch for a TV show, but it can be turned into a movie. Right. And, and we placed, we made the semi finals in a couple, uh, writing contests, which I thought was pretty good.

And they said, hey, out of, you know, 7,000, you were in the top 20%, which they thought was pretty good. So we had a guy two years ago that wanted to. buy it out in LA and but we didn't he went to buy it and they kind of shop it for us right but we we thought about it and but he said you know I want to be producer on and this and that okay whatever you got a you got a you give a little bit for somebody who's going to shop but you give him a little bit of something that's why there's like 18 producers or anything and then when he came to like he wanted a hundred percent control of any deal that me and my co-writer Darren

Hobson that we had no if somebody who made him an offer we had no say if he took it that was good enough for us and I said wasn't an option did he give you an he didn't give you an option just a shopping agreement just a shopping agreement yeah that's well that's good he could sell for somebody for $100 I said no I said no good or or in my business when I was in the vending business a lot of money was under the table I don't know if they do that out there maybe they do so he could have had a buddy saying yeah I like it here's 50 grand I'll give you 10,000 above board and we we wouldn't know about that. And I said, no, I said, you know, we'll just, we'll just keep, you know, working on it. And, you know, like I said, there's, there's, there's interest. I think it's unique story because like you said, it's not Le Costa Nostra. Yeah. But it's criminal stuff. And it's, and it's, it's predominantly white guys. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, uh, and Baltimore's a small market. You would never think like that shit was going on. But one guy's, go ahead. I'm sorry. I was going to say it's like, um, the whitey bulger or, uh, the departed. Like it's, it's, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a mob story, but without the Italians.

Without the Italians. And somebody got, somebody had once said, you know, I like the story, but it's kind of like stuck to Baltimore. I said, no, it's based in Baltimore. These machines are Virginia, North Carolina, you know, Maine, Pennsylvania. They're, they're still out there. And in that time frame, the mob controlled a lot of the stuff up north. They were, they, they had these things up north, you know, but they were, they were making millions in New York City.

You know, we were content, like our little outfit made 50 to 60,000 a week that they were splitting. That was decent money in the 90s. Joe's outfit was making 200,000 a week. What's that today? It's still a lot of money. A lot of money. And there was a report done in 2006. It was called the Abel report.

And there's a bell company, they would do, they would study things every once in a while. And they went back and they studied the vending business from, you know, it's inception. And it was like a 10-year period or so. And they said, yeah, they said, out of 3,000, 300. poke machines in Baltimore City and Baltimore County, these guys evaded paying taxes on hundreds of millions of dollars over a period of, you know, 10 years. Right. So, yeah, there's a lot, there's, there's so much money in it.

I mean, for the mob, maybe not, but for, you know, guys like us or guys like these guys, it with plenty of money. I mean, yeah, you know, it's plenty of money. Okay. And so after, after that, you just, now you, you said you were running the, the bar? I ran the bar. I got out 93. I got away from him in 96

and I ran my bar I ended up selling it in 2016 so I was fortunate somebody it was in a neat little area in Baltimore area called Mount Washington it was kind of an upscale area and like I said

Michael Phelps would come in the ex-governor would come in judges lawyers, tree guys stonemasons it was like a cheers and I was fortunate I always had everybody not everybody a lot of people wanted to buy the place because of how it was set up

and like the cheers feel to it, and it was like, oh, buy it, I buy to buy. And I'd throw a figure up to like, and I went all my money at front. Oh, you'll never get it. You never get it. I said, why aren't you fucking sell it? You know, unless I get all my money, I'm not selling it. Because a lot of my buddies that had bars that I knew over the years, you know,

say they sold, you know, I owned the property, I owned a building, I had a parking lot of liquor license. So I had more tangible property than a lot of these guys. But a buddy of mine, he had his bar 30 years. He didn't own the property. He sold it for 300 grand, the liquor license and the business, not the property. The guy gave him 50 grand down, six months stopped paying him. Now you've got to try and try to get it back.

He got it back, took him that 50 grand to get it back. The place was ruined. I think he sold it again for 70, just to get out. Yeah. I'm like I said, that's not going to happen to me. If I sell it, I want all my money up front. I stuck to my guns. And then I had these, these Oriental people wanted to buy and went to change the whole thing.

And some of the locals that were pretty well off that hung in there like, no, you can't sell with them. I'm like, write me a check. because they're going to write me a check, you know, 800,000, you know, and they go, okay, we'll give you, I said, all right, but it took like nine months to sell it because you have the, you have the hearing process, you have the, you know, post signs for a month, hearings coming up. These guys have to go to a hearing. They could get background checks. They have to, they have to apply and get, for the liquor license. License, they apply for that. They have that background checks. And then you have hearings

where the community can come in and say, do we want it to stay? Do we not want to stay. Now, this place was there since 1934, the place I had. And, you know, I bought a 93 sold in 2016. Unfortunately, in 2000, they went out of business. Really? Hence, that's why I wanted all my money up front because COVID just knocked them out. And the guy that bought it was, he was very, very wealthy, you know, shopping centers and horses. He played polo. That was his hobby. Yeah. You know, you know, that and, and he goes, man, it'd be cool to own a local bar because they would come down once in a while and him and his buddies bought it but they didn't realize the grind in that if you're not around the first year they they had it they called me up and begged me to

come back because it was messed up bad and I said dude your employees will rob you blind right yeah yeah you really have to be there you have to be I was if I wasn't in my place my sister was there but it ended up this guy they gave me eight grand to come back to 30 days so I came back to 30 days. I first sold her a year. And in 30 days, I showed, it's profitable in 30 days. But I found out too, you know, I said, if somebody came down and checked on the invoices, I said he was buying 100 pounds of crab meat a week and 100 pounds of shrimp a week. Now, we would do it once in a while as a special. It's pretty much like a beer shot burgers, clubs. I would do shrimp and crab meat to seasonal. He was doing this every week. And people were saying, oh, man, I missed that deal.

He would sell me five pounds of shrimp over the bar for like 10 bucks. It was. cost them 20. So I said if he had, if the owner had somebody come down and look at the invoices and say this stuff's not on the menu, he'd have figured it out. He could have figured it was like 50 to 70,000 the guy skimmed from in a year. And the guy was so wealthy. I said, man, you got to press charge. He's like, no, I could never do that's beneath me. I mean, this because this guy knew the mayor, knew the governor, you know, he was worth over 200 million dollars. He's like, this is beneath me. I can't do that. I'm like, dude, I know people would get killed for less. I mean, listen. I'm like, and I wasn't,

I wasn't messing around. I said, there's guys will be dead for less money. And he's like, ah, it's just, uh, you know, cost of doing business. And then when COVID hit and he went through another manager, he just said, screw it. You just got rid of it. So. Well, well, you know, I mean, you know, listen, I got my money. I got my money. I got my money. Yeah, that's all, it sucks because it was part of my life and my kids, I would just work down there. My kids will come in their little and hang out with me and color in the background and all. But, you know, it's, you know, I just moved on to something else. Okay.

Well, what are you doing now? Well, I'm doing, I said doing the book. I've been doing, doing some podcasts with other people. There's interest in it. Entering contest, rewriting. That's it. I mean, I just a little construction work for my brother when he needs it, drive a little Uber. I mean, I'm fortunate, I don't have to do a lot.

Right. So I just need to make a little bit of money. Two years of not doing anything, my wife finally said, find something to do. Yeah. So I said, you care what it is? She goes now, just make a couple hundred bucks a week. So, okay. Hey, this is Matt Cox.

And I appreciate you guys checking out the interview. Do me a favor. Hit the subscribe button, hit the bell so you get notified of videos like this. Also, please consider joining my Patreon or buying one of my books. There's links to all my books in the description box. A link to his book also. and thank you very much. See ya.