Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - Hollywood Butler's INSANE Double Life

Episode Date: June 28, 2025

Liverpool bank robber who became a butler to Hollywood A-list stars, including Elizabeth Taylor, Richard Burton, Clint Eastwood and Max Factor Jr.Terry's Book https://www.amazon.com/dp/1912885301?ref_=cm_sw_r_apin_dp_PRWD7QMWEKJQ778E50S2&language=en-USTerry's IG https://www.instagram.com/thehollywoodbutler/Follow me on all socials!Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/insidetruecrime/TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@matthewcoxtruecrimeDo you want to be a guest? Fill out the form https://forms.gle/5H7FnhvMHKtUnq7k7Send me an email here: [e-mail] you want a custom "con man" painting to shown up at your doorstep every month? Subscribe to my Patreon: https: //www.patreon.com/insidetruecrimeDo you want a custom painting done by me? Check out my Etsy Store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/coxpopartListen to my True Crime Podcasts anywhere: https://anchor.fm/mattcox Check out my true crime books! Shark in the Housing Pool: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0851KBYCFBent: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BV4GC7TMIt's Insanity: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08KFYXKK8Devil Exposed: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08TH1WT5GDevil Exposed (The Abridgment): https://www.amazon.com/dp/1070682438The Program: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0858W4G3KBailout: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/bailout-matthew-cox/1142275402Dude, Where's My Hand-Grenade?: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BXNFHBDF/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1678623676&sr=1-1Checkout my disturbingly twisted satiric novel!Stranger Danger: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BSWQP3WXIf you would like to support me directly, I accept donations here:Paypal: https://www.paypal.me/MattCox69Cashapp: $coxcon69

I'm just a butler. Barbara Streisand lives next door. Baird Reynolds lives on the other side. Frank Sinatra lives down the street, Elvis, Michael Jackson, and there's a billion dollars worth of art in the house. And nobody knows that they've got a bank robber in the home. So how does that work out? It's brilliant.

So you were you were born in Detroit, Michigan? No, I'm just joking. I'm just joking. oh my god so you're born in liverpool yeah i was born in liverpool in the city center when is this 1957 okay all right yeah what and what were your you know what were your parents uh what did they do your mom when my father he was in the merchant navy and my mother was you know is like an american day you know she stayed at home and raised the kids so but where we lived matth it was a very tough area and scotland road it was

notorious for street fights and gangs in the day and very tough people so that environment that we grew up in was very tough and we had no choice as you know we just come out the war and you know the late 60s and that and it was still we had that feeling there so we had no choice really and as kids you know there was not much for us so we just we just just um i got up one morning my father was absent he was in the merchant navy sending the money home to my mother and him i just got up one morning and went on the streets about four o'clock in the morning okay and i just decided to go and help the milkman to deliver the milk to bring some money into the home and um i helped him and i seen the bag that he had and the next

week I worked with him and then the following week he asked me to collect the money so I got there a few hours before and then what I did I collected the whole lot of it the whole bag before anybody because they knew me

and I think it was approximately £96 pounds or something like that and then that was in 19 or that was 1964 and then what happened is I took that money and I buried it in a cemetery but yeah

he knew you took it though they called the police yeah they got the police and they came around and the police got me and said why isn't he in school and I was unruly I was you know

I just wouldn't do as me told so what I did is I wouldn't tell them and then that was the first you know just the police I said where's the money and I wouldn't tell them and then what we did

was we just kept it and we just and then I formed a gang then so then in them days we had we had the bread company we had the lemonade company then we had the co-op

so me the gang David Brooks Ronnie Gibbons John Lally and Franny Jones we all got together and one Friday night we all got together and we decided that we would like

say like Vons or Wells where they take all the money for the weekend. We decided that we would go in there, distract the cashier, go to the register, and just get the bag empty here. And at the time, we were all eight and nine years of age. So this is the gang that I formed. And we all left. And then we all bought, at the time, I went and bought five cigars. Wait a minute. So you robbed the place. Yes. And it worked. Like the crew of eight, nine-year-olds went into a place and just strong, did you, you just strong-armed them or? Well, no, what we did. We, you know, we distracted the cashier.

She went down the aisle to get the tin of beans with Franny, and I jumped over and I emptied the register. And then, well, it was, you know, it was quite a bit of money. It was 136 pounds, actually. It was like being a millionaire when you had eight years of age. Right. And then we ran out. and then we buried it all in the cemetery with the rest of the stash

and then what we did was that we I went and bought five cigars and the guy said in the liquor store who's the cigars for? I said, oh, they're for my father. It's his birthday. And then we got a taxi and we're all sitting in the taxi

smoking cigars at eight and nine years of age and then we go over to a little place over by Liverpool it's called New Brighton on the ferry and we come back and then we get caught John and Ronnie got taken into custody because they were

I think they were nine and a half so they got sentenced to probation and then it was only a matter of time before me and Franny would be nine years of age that they would take us into custody yeah what happened to you guys well what happened was about a few months later

Franny was in the house and he was He was staking this house out in them days. They had what you called gas meters where they had the money in the homes. So Franny introduced me to her and Franny went into a house and the back door was open

and he went in and he got a hammer and a screwdriver and he smashed the gas meter open and he took all the money. I was not with him at the time but they thought I was with him so then what they did is that they took us into care. So for the previous... things that we did

the co-op and the milkman they said we'll take them into care anyway and they took us into care and then what they did in them days in Liverpool and the British government they'd formed these schools Matthew they called approved schools and they gave us three years

we got three years yeah me and Franie got three years they sent us to an assessment centre and then in that assessment centre we were sent to what you call an approved school in 1968 69 approximately 68 69 and we were sentenced to three years each and they put Franny in a closed it was called Red Bank it was a secure unit for the you know kids with psychosis and all that

and then they put me in this home and then eventually I did about two and a half years and total abuse right under the umbrella of the constantly being abused by the men that were running the home, the teachers and the headmasters, a lot of rape going on at the time, a lot of bullying, kids beating the hell out of each other. And eventually I was released and I only had one day of freedom. I came home I felt that the house was empty my father wasn't there

my mother wasn't dead and I actually went into a store and I had a bag with me and I stole a load of groceries and I was sitting eating biscuits cookies on a bus stop and a police car comes up

and arrest me and then they take me back to the remand center take me to court I get another three years and I go back to the same school and again that that was six years and then they send us

me and Franny ran away we goes on the streets they made a mistake they put us together Franny got out and he got another three years and then we went to a place called St. Aden's in Witness in Cheshire where Sean Atwood's from

and that's what he used to do was paper round and we went to that home so we decided then we were getting a bit stronger and we would attack the teachers. So we set this up one morning where we got all the knives, the forks, and we attacked them, and we escaped.

And then we get back to Liverpool. And then we, it's always on the streets of Liverpool, Matthew. And then we go to a store, we steal a load of clothes. And as we're walking through the city centre, I meet some of the most notorious guys from Scotland Road that became notorious. and we do a whiskey heist on the docks because all the docks in them days

they had all the importation you know all the ships in Liverpool they brought everything into Liverpool so what we did is that we we just we were doing a warehouse on the docks and we would get create to whiskey and we'd push it up to a friend's house Joe Kavana's house and then

we'd sell the whiskey and escape out of there go down to we jumped out the window and we had to swim like across a little lake and Franny got caught in the middle he had his glasses came off

and he couldn't see I'm sorry how old are you at this point yeah what about 11 12 okay and then the other guys in the in the gang was Joey Wright he was notorious

became notorious you had Eger London and Joe Moran, they were from Scotland Road. They were the most famous guys from Scotland Road. And then we get away and then the next morning we go back to the cemetery. And then what we do is we wake up, it's cold. Our clothes are wet, we've got a blanket. And then I go to the store to steal some milk and some bread and Frannies asleep.

And the woman knows me, so they call the police and then we're caught again. They call the police just because she saw you? Yeah, because they knew that in the local area that we'd robbed the co-op and it was so well known at the time at this age when we were 10. So they were kind of looking out for you. Yeah. Okay. And then what happened was they got Franny, they got me.

And then I was sentenced to another three years. And then Franny went back. He got another three years. So that was nine years, nine years in the approved schools. And I get sent to a school in Cheshire called St. Joseph's. Now, in there, you had all these guys from Manchester, and I'm from Liverpool. So there's a rivalry. So they beat the hell out of me, break my nose,

just nearly beeped the whole bodies of hell, you know. And I take it because I'm on my own. And then eventually I run away and I go back to the streets of Liverpool. And I get captured again. And they gave me, they sent me to, in the British system in them days was called a sharp shock. It was called detention. Okay. And I was sentenced to three months of detention, military style and punished once again.

Are you, like, are you going to school this whole time? Do they keep you in school? Yes, you do, yes, you do, Matthew. But also what's happening is to the brain, we're on a high alert of, we don't know what's happening to us because our brains are being developed. We're not getting trained. It starts from when we were 10 getting abused and our brain is not developing because we're under what you call a state of anxiety.

Right. And we're under what you call hypervigilance constant. Yes. So it's a form. So it ends up developing into a form of PTSD, right? Like, I mean, you're constantly under that strain. You know, there are those spikes of strain and then it's okay for a little bit. And then there are these spikes.

And it just makes you extremely anxious and lumpy. But I wanted to mention one thing to you. So in Florida, I don't know if people that watch these podcasts, I'm not sure if they realize that, you know, in the, jeez, you know, in the 50s, 60s, 70s, like, you know, after World War II, obviously Europe had been decimated, right? Like, that didn't happen here. So we're doing pretty good in the United States during this period of time. And still, the juvenile facilities that were set up, these reform schools are brutal. Yes.

They, they've in Florida, and I've talked about this before, because I've had some guests on that I've talked about it, and I forget the name of the school. I want to say it was called White House, but there's a couple of them where literally kids are getting in trouble. They're throwing in here for a year or so. And then two years later, their parents show up and say, where's my son? Yeah. He was supposed to be here for a year, 18 months. Where is he? And they're like, we released him.

And they're like, well, where is he? Well, we don't know. he's a bad kid, he ran away. Come to find out, 50, 60 years later, they end up digging up hundreds of bodies that these guys, these guards were raping and killing these kids and beating them and then just burying them in the vacant fields next to the school. And now, you know, 50, 60 years later,

they're now digging up these graves. And it's insane. So I can only imagine how, you know, throughout Europe how you know the rough conditions that you know that the God that all of Europe was

undergoing how brutal those schools were in comparison to the United States which really was having a huge economic boom yeah that's unfortunate because what happened later on Matthew is the homes that I were in it was the most

I'll give you one incidents with St. Aidan I file a lawsuit against them I come back from America when I'm going back to get justice for myself after I went on the run and we'll get to that later and I went back and the police were looking for me

and there was a home called St. Joseph, St. Joseph, St. Adens and St. George's where I was in where I was sentenced to 12 years and they were under investigation. So I joined a class action lawsuit in England with the courts, the European courts, and it went on for 14 years. And when I was interviewed,

I was interviewed in mental hospitals in a place called Wampton for the criminally insane against the lawyers sent me there. Their lawyers, to be examined to see if we had what you call a split personality and under them conditions

I went in and I thought I'm going to control the interview with the psychiatrists three of them they're not going to control me because the first question

I asked the psychiatrist before you interviewed me can you please tell me what records do you have in front of you and I asked the doctor these were forensic psychiatrists. I said, what year is it today? And they said, oh, it's 1997.

What's the date? June the 16th. I said, do you have a report there from Los Angeles in 1981 from a hospital? From Dr. Messina. And they said, yes. Do you have a report from a psychiatrist? Dr. Caroline Way, yes, we do. 1983. Do you have a report there from a Dr. Obler from 1984? Yes, we do. Do you have a report there

from Dr. Murray from Cina-Signan Medical Center in Beverly Hills? Yes, we do. What does that state? I made them records then, and I blamed the people then for the abuse that I occurred when I was in the home and they were shocked. Now these lawyers were the highest lawyers in Britain. They were for the courts. I was the only child out of 360 people in the class action civil lawsuit. They went against their own lawyers. They went on my side. You just mentioned PTSD. They at the time said I should have been hospitalized for PTSD. And I said, no, I'm okay, I'll get through this. And at the time, the diagnosis was chronic, serious, PTSD.

It's ran its course. But I survived it. And going back to your audience, Franny would die. He would die from circumstances when he was 22. Joe Moran would commit suicide. Eger London my dear friend he would hang himself in a prison

Joey Wright would be sentenced to 21 years for importation eventually he would die so most of them passed away Ronnie Gibbons he did the he did the Matt Springs job

in New York the fifth largest heist and they got 8 million But these guys were pretty clever fellas In my gang They were all in my gang when they were kids And he went to get his money Upstate in New York

And he was apprehended And he was killed He was chopped up and thrown in a lake And last year they did a movie on him Called Holy Heist Apprehended You mean Apprehended makes me think of the police

Well by the mafia Okay Yeah the mafia And then they chopped them up And threw him in a lake Okay So basically I'm the only one alive today To tell my story

Right And I bring their lives to the To the big screen That's what I'm doing Because I'll never forget them They were all great men When did you eventually get out of these schools Like what was the next school you were in

What Well the next one When I ran away Matthew I was sentenced to The movie that was made on us Called Scum right we talked about yeah i i watched part of i almost watched the whole thing but there were some brutal uh graphic scenes especially for a scene especially for a movie that was made back in what was it

like the was it the 60s or 70s yeah 70s well it was banned by the british it was the most violent film in the world at the time it you know it really like just like you had said it it reminded me of the movie sleepers sleepers yeah yeah yeah very much um and then i'll like Yeah, Kevin Bacon. Yeah. So anyway, I went to Scum after the come out. That was the only way I could, that was what they were going to do to me. So they sent me to Scum.

And obviously at the time, when we got to Scrum, it was like a prison. And most people were feared of Scum because what they would do, they'd either go into the Marines or the army. And then what happened is there was all, actually it was Britain's toughest children. that were criminals and you've got no chance of getting out. You were sentenced to two years, constant marching in the morning at six o'clock, military style, beaten up. We did get a bit of education in there,

but also then there was conflict. Who was the toughest kid? Manchester, London, Liverpool, Birmingham. So then there was what you call, who was the daddy? And then I was called out by a black child. He was the daddy. and I had what you call a straightener with him a straightening means come upstairs

and then as we were growing up in Liverpool me and Ronnie you know we used to do a lot of boxing because Ronnie was a professional fighter and I trained with Ronnie and he was actually number one in the world and well to wait and so you know we know it's a fight and we use what you call the Liverpool

kiss a head kiss where you just headbut them and so I had a straightener with the daddy and I beat the hell out of him and then I became the daddy but then I went into solitary confinement for one month so what I think how they did the movie they took all the reports

from the files and this is how they did the movie because they couldn't have done it any other way so I'd spent about two years of my life in scum I'd saved 12 months and then there were children in there at the time

breaking the windows, we'd come and they would slice the necks, slice the arms to pieces. And you could hear the ambulances when we were in our cells at night coming to the borstal, which was scum, to take another dead body out. It was absolutely horrendous. And then what happened there later on, as I said about all the approved schools,

the detention centres and scum, Margaret Thatcher and a guy called William Whitelaw they closed them Borstals down so the British government then had blood on the hands for introducing that system that it did not work and most of them children in the detention centre of Matthew

and the approved schools today and in Borstal most of them became dysfunctional and have passed away Okay. So, how old were you when you got out? I was about 15 and a half going on 16. What happened then? I mean, did you go? Like, where are your parents? Well, my mother had cancer. Okay.

She was in the hospital when I came out of scum. I hadn't seen her for a couple of years. and I went to a visitor and eventually she would pass away when I was 16 of lung cancer. So really I didn't really know my mother. And then I went down south. My father was at home and he had a lot of problems with his heart and then he would pass away. I went to the south of England. I went to Brighton. I'm sorry.

How old were your parents? At the time, my mother was 56 when she died. and my father was 67. I was the youngest. Right, so they had you very young. They had you older when they were older in their 40. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

So what I did, Matthew, I went to down to Brighton to stay with my older brother, John. I felt safe with him and comfortable. And then what happened was I went on the streets again. One thing, that's the only thing I knew was shoplifting or doing something that. So I went into a store and I stole two shirts.

and I got stopped by the police and I ran away and then I went back to Liverpool and I just forgot about it so that day then there was I joined up with John, my old buddy John Lally and there was a thing called what we did then in them days

as we were getting old day we were learning as criminals we were doing what you call snatchers and night safes so John had come to me and said to me Listen, we've got a snatch to do And it's like a big store where the woman would take the money On a Friday afternoon after all week

And we'd just snatchy as she went in the bank And then we'd run, get into a stolen car And we'd get away So we did that one day And they came for me that night Looking for me in the pub So I think to myself, Matthew, I think Well, you know, they want me for the snatch

so I have a fight with a policeman in the pub they get me they throw me through a big plate glass window my arm goes through the my arm goes through the window my arm is hanging off my fingers are hanging off and then the artery bursts

and then I wake up in the hospital two days later I don't know where they am and they saved my life and then the cops come in and they've got me tired to the bed with the handcuffs on right I've got the

handcuffs on and the cop says to me you're going down to Brighton you were shoplifting and they escort me you think I

you think I was the great train robber for two shirts for two shirts I goes down to Brighton goes in custody goes to a prison in Ashford in London

I'm a Scouse I'm from the north but they hate the north and the south don't like each other and I get all this abuse and I'm fighting with all the Londoners but I meet a few friends and that okay then I go back to what you call the Crown Court in Brighton and the judge said I've got no alternative you've done everything

you've done approved school you've done detention you've done Borstal and he gave me two years for the two shirts and I'm at the time I'm 17 years of age So this is, I'd gone in when I was just nine, and now I'm 17. I've done nearly a total of nine years. All right. How, did you do the whole two years? Well, I went into a London prison as a young prisoner. I was the youngest prisoner in the whole of the prison.

And same thing, fighting with a few Londoners, all the London gangsters, all the young kids who were coming up. He was the great train robbers were in there, Gordon Goody. I met him. He became my friend. I met Norman Johnson was a dear friend who I didn't mention on Shones. He had a contract to kill the Craig Twins in London. And Norman would become my best friend. And I did, I had a fight in the prison to get out of the prison.

So I set upon two black guys. I broke the chair. I locked them in the cells and I beat the hell out of them with another Scottish guy. And then I was put into solitary confinement once again. And then the governor said to me, you're going to end up doing life in jail. You carry on. I said, well, I need to go to Liverpool. I don't belong here.

And I was shipped to Liverpool. And I finished me two and a half years. I got six months extra for beating the two black guys up. So I ended up two and I did two and a half years. Okay. So when you were released, what happened? What did you do? You went straight? You went ahead. You went to college. You got it. No. It's no such thing. Well, in them days, Matthew, we had no chance because of my references. I was a born criminal. I had no chance. And so what I did, my brother Alan, he was on the, he did the maiden voyage on the Queen Elizabeth II, the ocean liner. So he had a friend in Cunard. And he took me to Southampton, and what he did, he got me, we falsified all the documents, and I got on the ship as a cook, as a chef. And then I worked my way up to be a waiter, and then I worked my way up to be a butler.

So then I became in charge of the penthouses on the QE2. And this is where I start. My life starts changing completely. and I'm going straight but then I get these ideas because Elizabeth Taylor's on the ship with Richard Burton and I get an idea

of stealing all their diamonds there's about 14 million there so I go to New York and Ronnie's in New York he's training with Gil Clancy Mohammed Ali's trainer and he's going to be a professional boxer so I'll go

to see him. I bring him on the ship and I said, come on, we're going to go and steal Elizabeth Taylor's diamonds. You've got two choices. We can do the jewelers on the ship because I know the manager, I was dating her as a friend, not as a girlfriend, oh, we can do Elizabeth Taylor's diamonds. And she had one of them was eight million. And the redemption started kicking in my thoughts of myself, you know, I can't, I can't go and steal somebody. diamond. She's a lovely woman. She's beautiful. And at the time, it was infiltrated the QE2. On the 5th of November, it's called Guy Fawkesnight in Britain. The Irish Republican Army was at war with the British since 1969. And the conflict carried

on. So then men came on to the QE2, and on the 5th of November, they're going to blow the whole of the QE2 up on a trans langtick going across from Southampton or to New York. So when I bring Ronnie on the ship, the police are watching us, the secret service from London, and they arrest me and Ronnie, and they take Ronnie off the ship, and they said, when we get to Southampton, we want to speak to you. And so I guess to Southampton, I knew I had done that wrong. and they said you're a member

of the Irish Republican Army I said no I'm not no no so next next thing I was

I was fired I was sacked off the ship to kick me off the ship for falsifying me documents and I became which you had done yeah

oh yeah and there was you know there was a few things we were going to do on the ship and we were going to take all the wages that was being delivered from

Heunard for the staff. We had that plan in place. We would go out at night and when all the, when they went to Cadabine, all the whiskey bottles and, you know, we'd carry, we'd go around the ship and we'd take all that and we'd store that in our cabins and we'd sell it. There's lots of stuff that we did.

Right. But not a member of the IRA. Right. Not a member, but I knew them. Right. And later on, then, there was 400 pounds of metrics in Southampton that they found that they were going to blow it up. And they all got 20 years each. Yeah, the guy Fox.

I mean, obviously they had that movie, was it V for Victory or for Vendetta, sorry, V for Vendetta. But, you know, I know the Guy Fox story, which is always. you know super interesting one of them one of the IRA man was released who did the the Matt Springs job with Ronnie

he was an IRA man okay yeah so once you were let go what then now you're I'm back to the streets I'm back to the streets of Liverpool and so you did the right thing went and got a job

no no no no Okay. I didn't think so. No, I don't think so. You know, in them days, people just work for nothing. So, you know, there was some clever guys that I knew. So early I was in the morning, I met a friend at a bus stop. And I was in my car. And I went, hey, man, what are you doing here? And he said, oh, we're just watching something. And I knew him from the approved schools. He was a notorious bank robber. He said, he said to me, can I get into? I'm watching something Now we had a headquarters in Liverpool called the gyro which distributed It's like security core in America That distributes all the money to the banks

Right, right So it was called like Brinks Yeah, Brinks So it was called the gyro So what we did is He took me to the headquarters And I said, what's going on? He said, we're waiting for the van to come out

I'm following it oh I said okay and because he knew me and I was I was very trustworthy and he asked me to come in and be the driver so I decided

the next day I'll go myself and do my own thing I didn't need them that doesn't sound very trustworthy no but they yeah but that was okay with them you know I told them right because I thought

you know I had the I had the confidence that I could do just as good as what they were doing and eventually I would team up with some of them and I said let me look at it tomorrow so let me follow another van and see how many drops he does so he does 11 drops and the other van does nine drops

and in them that money's getting transported to all the post offices so the one I did was it was there was a quarter of of a million in it in 1978

and I formed a notorious gang of bank robbers to hijacky and unfortunate the it all went wrong that day what how do you go wrong

what as the we're supposed to get the guys on the floor get in the back of the van emptied probably 13 14 bags with a quarter of a million and one of the guys they were too fast, they closed the door too fast

and then as the guy was going in the door to the post office my friend punched him in the face and he flew through the window and I write this chapter in the book it's called blood, glass and milk he's cut they can't get the bag off him

he won't let go so I move in and I've got a hammer on me and a rifle and I use some skills with it and I drag him in the middle of the street but in the meantime you've got, there's a milk float

and all the customers that are waiting for the money they run to the milk float and they get the milk and they start throwing the milk at us and all the milk is smashing all over our bodies on our heads and that and we get trapped A milk floats a milk truck Yeah Okay

Yeah So then there's a big battle in the street We're fighting with all the customers And there's blood all over the place There's milk and there's glass And as we're getting in the car They're throwing bottles of milk But it's glass

And they're smashing in the car And we've got blood and milk all over us A few of us got cut And then we finally we can hear the sirens, the police the post office alarms going off the screamers are going off, the alarm system and we get away to a safe house

and while we're in the safe house my friend goes out to the safe house whose house it was and we it was the we were in the headline news of all the newspapers in Britain Hammergang They called it the hammer gang?

Yeah, the hammer gang. What, because you had the hammer? Yeah, we used to carry hammers. And, you know, our objective, you know, was not violence. We just wanted the money. Right. That's all we wanted. But not guns because it's...

Yeah, we could get access to guns, but we didn't want to use because that would say that's 25 years. Right. Plus, it's difficult to get guns, isn't it? You can get them. Okay. Yeah, you can get them. So then what happened is I go to London. And I've been in London and I've done a few security vans in London with some of the London gangs.

And we've got away with that. Nobody knows to this day where they were. And what happened was the guy that met me that morning, they did, they were. they got away with 95,000 three weeks before. Yeah, I was just going to ask, what kind of money are you guys getting when you, when you did this? There's a quarter of a million.

Could be three quarters of a million in the van. We don't, you know, it's an estimation. Right. And then about, I went to London and I came back. and I had a private apartment and I just walked out one morning and there he was 20 of them and they got me

police officers yeah detectives from London and the serious crime squad how did they like how they track you down how they get somebody and they rolled the guy yeah one of them had

one of them had told the police where I lived and he got apprehended yeah so I was taken into custody now on that robbery the men wore masks

so we couldn't be identified right so in the police station they got a woman she wanted to be a hero and the police showed a photograph of me and she went yeah that's him

that's him that looks like him no the police wouldn't do anything underhanded oh no no they wouldn't would be so she picks you out i mean do you go or do you try and you know go to trial or you just yeah like the police you would go to trial yes so what happened is i get charged with robbery with force and i get put in what you call in notorious prison in the west of England, in the northwest, called Risley-Riemann Center, where we had waited to go to the approved schools. I actually was the youngest prisoner in that remand center,

and it was called Grizzly-Risly, where men would hang themselves because it was so bad. And when I came in, they all were going, oh my God, the bank robber's here. And at the time, there was only one great bank robber. was a guy called Tommy Comerford from Liverpool and he was behind me he was in for importation

and he came behind me and said oh so you're the new kid on the block I said I don't know what you're talking about anyway I was in and a guy had said to me why don't you put an application into the house of lords to get a bail hearing

three judges in London I'll hear your case. So they heard my case. And the next morning, I was released. I walked out to prison after six months. Well, I mean, you're supposed to come back for trial. Yes, I did. The trial was set, yeah.

The trial was set in December. So the trial set in December, the only evidence they've got is the woman against me. Right. the evidence in England has to be collaborated and it was not collaborated so you got one person that's me

right no I'm saying you've only got one witness against you or what about what about the informant the guy that rolled over on you it's what you call admissible okay it doesn't stand doesn't stand so they drop the charges no what happened the trial starts

so I have a judge the judge came from London I have another judge from Manchester to defend me and I have another what you call a Queen, a junior barrister and they determined me

they said it could go 50-50 each way and I said what do you mean 50-50 I said I'm innocent and they said they said you'll get 10 years so anyway as I went into the courtroom

I cut all my hair off. I put a sight, a razor part here. I had a suit on and I walked in. I seen the witness and the police are at the end of the corridor smoking a cigarette. And I go over to the witness and I say to the witness,

good morning, Mr. Seino. My name's Detective Sergeant Smith from the police station. So then the trial starts. The prosecution gets up. we're going to prove this case that this man did this robbery. Next thing, they put me in the box and they get the witness and she shuffles in. And my Queen's counsel says to the witness,

I want you on that day on April, the 30th, you've seen the robbery and they went through and she said yes. And did you identify a man? and do you see that man? And she said yes. And then my lawyer said, well, all them men wore masks that day. So can you identify the man standing in the courtroom now?

And she went, yes. And my lawyer said, well, what's her name? Okay. What's his name? And she said, that's Detective Sergeant Smith. right and the judge took his glasses

off and went I'll give you one more question when you were in the police station Mr. Sino did Detective

Sergeant Smith ever show you any photographs of Mr. Muggan and she went oh yes so the judge

threw out she thought I was detective sergeant Smith Right. Next thing, the judge went, no. The judge went, Mr. Mugan, you've been found not guilty and you're free to go. Nice.

The gallery went crazy. The journey went crazy. I come out the courtroom and they're all congratulating me. But then there was one big problem. What was that? They put a 24-hour surveillance on me from London and Liverpool. okay what's what's wrong so when you left what did you do we had the next job planned for like within the next 24 hours no within the next month okay but they were tailing you

yeah so they figured out you guys were casing a joint or yeah it was a bank and there was a large amount of money in it with two guys and I was with I can name one of them Joey right because he's passed away now and as we're doing the bank the police are watching us and did you go did you go in was it like a burglary or did you go in at night or did you go in the middle of the day it was like it was in the middle of the day Matthew where we would use a certain technique to get a man on the floor

it was like a wrestle hold and then we were tooled up to pieces Amazoners everything in case anything went wrong and it was on it was on where I was born it was on the notorious Scotland Road and we get him

we apprehend them we get the box off him in two seconds two seconds he's done he's done we go across the street in the van me and Joey get in the van and we're driving

and Joey says to me we're going to the safe house Joey said to me Teddy there's four police cars behind us I said fucky go to the safe house we're done

we got surrounded about 25 police cars they come in they beat the hell out of us take us into custody and charge us with arm robbery. I'm assuming you don't beat this one. You want to hear it?

Yeah. Huh? Yeah. Okay. It's absolutely brilliant. So I'm in Risley again. I'm in Risley. Okay.

Joey gets, Joey, I'd had a private relationship with the police. He's what you're call a reservoir dog and I don't know that all right and he comes back to his cell

and he said to me Teddy I've paid the police I've paid them 10,000 to get out when we go to the court next week the police won't be there they've gone on holiday

to oppose the bail so we get up to the magistrates the biggest case one of the biggest cases again in Liverpool and the magistrate Wooten goes, where's the police in the case to oppose the bail? The prosecution, well, they're not here.

Well, I want them here. Put them back in custody. You get put back in custody. Goes back up at 2 o'clock in the afternoon. No police. The law says you've got to let us go if there's no police there. Right.

So anyway, the magistrate's going crazy. The magistrate, well, I know him. I know this Morgan guy. He's been in front of me before. He needs to stay in custody. And the prosecution said, well, the police is not here. You have to let them go. So next thing, me and Joey walk out the court.

We get out. Right. Is this out on bail? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, but out on bail. So Joey comes out and he walks down the street and I come out, there's a few guys and there's a few guys from the Mafia waiting for him.

And I looked at him. I gave him a dirty look. And I went, no, no, no. And he looked at me. I said, I'm warning you. Be careful. And the two guys looked at me. I knew them.

We had Chicago Warfare in Liverpool in the 70s. and they were leading the Chicago Warfare with guns and they were as his friends and I just looked at them and he said hello Teddy, how are you? And I went to I'm okay

and I knew then he was up to something so he goes to meet the police and he signs a statement against me to say that to say that he lent me the van in the robbery and that he wasn't there and he gave me the van so

a few weeks later the four of us Joey we had another bank in the city center that no one would do it was called Water Streets and it was a massive there was about 186,000 in 1980

coming out the bank we get the guards on the floor we just take it it's all set up that morning Joey doesn't show up he doesn't show up so we're going to follow through with it and as we do it

we take the box we get the box no problem at both ends of the street we get locked in we get trapped Joey had informed the police that we were doing it Yeah So this end of the street was blocked The other end of the street was blocked

We can't get out So I ran and I smashed the window And I dive through a window And the other two followed me I left We got away Okay The following

The following morning, at 6 o'clock, my door comes off the injures. Six armed policemen come in the bedroom. I'm in bed with my wife. Put a gun to my head and said, don't move. You're under arrest. Were you wearing a mask at the second robbery? Yes. Okay.

So, I mean, so far, they just had the one guy. they just have Joey's his statement and he did say there's going to be a bank robbery but they still don't haven't seen you there is that it or

no but they know it's you oh they know it's you oh yeah I know I get that because the dying you know the dying to get me right because these are the these are the these banks and these post offices

are the biggest jobs that are going off in Liverpool and they've got to get someone they can't let it keep happening so I was taken into and you've already you've already beaten a couple

of several cases already so yeah you're not very popular with the police oh well at the time I was the most wanted in Liverpool at the time I was like public enemy enemy number one right yet they had me down as number one at the time there was a

outside Liverpool there's a gang of bank robbers from heightened they're called the heightened buddies I knew them. They were involved in a couple of them got shot on some of the jobs they did and so that morning

they got me at gunpoint. They take me in the police station 12 hours of questioning I don't say nothing. The sergeant comes in he said okay you can get him up now he's getting charged with four bank robberies and I just stand there

I don't say nothing then the phone goes the sergeant said hold on a second my phone's going he goes to the phone he comes back and he says you got to let him go

there's a prison strike for 24 hours we can't take any prisoners the government said no prisoners and I'm like that oh my God and the sergeant said

Mr Mugan make sure you come back tomorrow at 6 o'clock so I go Matthew I go down the street I walk out it's freezing it's December the 8th I got a shirt on

they gave me a pair of pants pair of shoes I get to taxi home to my wife I said to my wife pack a suitcase go to your mothers and get me 50,000 pounds and meet me in London in the morning

at Pan Am she said where are you going I said I'm not telling you you meet me in London three o'clock in the morning it's raining I know the house is being watched I just jump out

the window a car's waiting for me in a tunnel with two gangsters in it i can mention one of them today that was tommy gilday he was one of the most fearless men in liverpool he was a friend of mine and he's passed away god bless him tommy drove me we're eg of london and they drove me to london I said goodbye My wife was waiting for me And she said Where are you going I said

I got an idea that when I was young On the QE2 Elizabeth Taylor told me to be an actor You should go to Hollywood And I said now She said well you could be a butler in Hollywood So I jumped on a flight Matthew

I got a return ticket And I went to Los Angeles on my own. What year was this? 1980. 1980. So what do you do in Los Angeles? Do you become an actor?

No. I get a job. Well, I arrive. I'm all screwed up. I'm mentally under so much pressure. It's, you know, there was a man, when they did the great train robbery in England there was a guy on the run

called his name was Ronnie Biggs he went to Rio Janeiro I knew Gordon Goody and I had this thing in my head you know being on the lamb on the run was horrible and it affected me mentally so I got a

couple of jobs and then I decided to go to Beverly Hills to become a butler and I registered with one of the biggest agencies in the world. And she's seen my books off the QE2 when I was the butler and the penthouses. And she said, I've got the right job for you.

I've got an interview for you tomorrow. And it was with Clint Eastwood's wife, Maggie. Okay. And the job was in Carmel with Clint and his wife, Maggie, and taking care of the two children, Alison and Kyle. so I took the job and I went to Carmel all right

how long did that last well I was there on my own you know it was beautiful it was on the 17 mile drive and I was on my own and my wife was at home in Santa Monica we had a lovely apartment and it was quite lonely actually and I just felt isolated

on my own and I found the agency and I asked them they had another job that was closer and they said yeah because you know they're going to get commission so I left

and she was like upset you know but I had a lovely life and I met Clint a few times and he had his you know he was going in and out the house and Kyle and Maggie it was a lovely place to live

and then I went back to Santa Monica and I got a call to go to I don't even remember this guy Merv Griffin

right I know I know I know you're talking about the QE2 you're right I know all the names

what were the two twins the two the Kray twins like they made a movie about them didn't they yeah well I always said that I always said that

me and Ronnie you know they were very violent men and I always said to my they used to call me and Ronnie the great twins when we were kids he said you're like the great twins I said no

the crate twins the crate twins actually I write in my book they never went through what I went through and we always said on the street that me and Ronnie would have the two of them on the street yeah a straightener and me and running would probably do the two

with them. That's not bragging and nothing like that because they were just violent men. That's what the game was. And I don't think they'd ever gone out and done a security van. They hadn't done a post office. They'd never done nothing like that. They were known for the violence. That's what they were known for.

So did you took the job, did you take the job with Merv Griffin? I went to, I went to sunset. and Vine in Hollywood. And Merv asked me to fly up with him to Carmel Valley. And the money was like unbelievable. It was like double the amount that I was getting at Clint. But this time I could take my wife. So we went up there and I became Merv's butler.

But unfortunately, Merv was bisexual. Okay. and he made some remarks to me and at the time he had a boyfriend with him tony and that was registered in the inquirer in the early 80s he sued mev and i didn't like there was some new um innuendos that went on you know and i just went oh no no and i left how long were you there i was there about six months I was just still in the 80s so what happened at that point

you know what did you do what were you doing for work well then I went back to the agency I went back to the agency and she could place me anywhere being an English butler everybody in Hollywood wanted me then so I went back and I did went to a place called

called the Weinberg House. They owned a Kahala Hilton in Hawaii. Okay. I went there. And it was crazy. Why? She was mentally ill. We had a staff of seven.

That was absolutely nuts. It was actually, Matthew, it was Elvis's old house. Elvis Presley's old house. And she was absolutely sick. so I wake up one morning and I hear this rumbling in the garage so I'll go round and I open the

garage and all this smoke comes out and I thought maybe the you know the the Rose Royce is on fire but actually Mrs. Weinberg's in the Rolls Royce she's got a pipe going from the exhaust into the mouth

and she's trying to commit suicide So I get it out Call 911 The police come Paramedics And they save her life And she's crazy She's abusing all of us

And eventually I was at the house All the staff left And I just stayed there And Eventually she would kill herself she shot herself in the head this isn't while you were there though

yeah oh okay how long before that took place well it took place after it was about a month later she died how long had you been you know working for her probably about four months

so yeah very sad right yeah and then Mr Weinberg he he flew me to the Kahala Hilton in Hawaii and I stayed with him for the week and me and my wife and he said Terry you know I'm sorry I said I don't worry you know I'm just used to stuff like this being in school being on in all the homes all the people

who died I was just I was sort of used to it I was immune to it and I just got on with my life and then did you did you stay on with him? No. No, I got an offer to go to George Siegel, the actor. Right. He was big in the 60s and 70s. And I went to his home in Bel Air, and he hired me as his butler.

This whole time, you're wanted. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. are you going are you going by uh by mugan

yeah okay okay all right yeah it's it's amazing and um well let's go back a little bit because let's go back to Joey's trial

when I left okay Joey was found not guilty on the on the Scotland road even though we made a statement against me he tampered with the I told him to tamper with the jury

I was in contact with a few of them, the mafia in Liverpool and I said listen when the jury comes out follow the jury home get on the back of the bus with them and just tell them make sure you come in tomorrow and I'm not guilty

and if you don't we know where your children go to school right so Joey got not guilty so I was delighted I formed my lawyers in Liverpool and they said well if he's not guilty the co-accused is not guilty so I was not guilty

okay so but they're still looking for you yeah but really it's just a technicality like they just need to get you bring you back and go through the proceedings yeah okay so I'm with George Siegel at the time right and I'm

I'm in Bel Air and I used to go to Hollandby Hills and I'd make phone calls from my park it was called Armandhammer Park to the lawyers

and I'd say what do you think they say just Teddy stay away so I stayed away and then me and George Seagled

become good friends and his butler running his big mansion in Belair and one day he tells me Telly, you've got to go and pick these guys up. It was Burt Reynolds, Art Carney, Buddy Aki.

And then I was doing a stew for them, and I was stew in the garden in Bel Airy, and they're all smoking cigars and drinking scotch. And George says to me, oh, there's another guy going to come in about half an hour. And then there's a knock on the door. It's Robert Redford. And I went, wow.

And they're all sitting, Matthew, in there in Bel Air, smoking cigars and drinking scotch. And call them Marlon Brando all the names under the sun. They're calling Brando, everything. He's making more money than anybody. And I'm just listening to this. Right. And then, as me, I'm just a butler. And George goes, George turns to Bert Reynolds and he goes, see him.

should be an actor and I said to George I am an actor I'm the butler but you don't see you so I had this great relationship with him you know and I go out for lunch with him and it was nuts

and then I was with him about a year and then he goes and gets his face done and he's moving back to New York so that job came to an end you didn't want to go you didn't want to go to New York with them no no yeah you didn't acquire me no

have you been in L.A. this whole time yeah yeah you okay all right I just wondering I mean I know the weather is nice you know I know but I don't know why I thought

at some point you were you were going to go back you've been back yeah okay they'll tell you that I go to a guy in Alby Hills and I do, he's a billionaire, he owns Toyota and he's got a billion dollars worth of artwork in his house and he sees all my references

and he goes, bump, he's just bought a $50 million mansion in Holmby Hills. Barbara Streisand lives next door. Burt Reynolds lives on the other side. Frank Sinatra lives down the street. Gregory Peck, Rod Stewie, Elvis, Michael Jackson, and I'm back again in this big mansion, taking care of a guy called Frederick Wiseman, and driving a Bentley, driving his Rolls Royce, flying in a gold stream, a $50 million jet, and there's a billion dollars worth of art in the house.

and nobody knows that they've got a bank robber in the home. Right. So how does that work out? It's brilliant. So he's away for, he's back in Merdyland, Toyota. And I'm checking the house one day. And I opened this door and there's a safe in there about five feet by three feet. And I open it.

And I just looked inside and in the corner. there's two bags it was 155,000 in one bag and about a quarter of a million in jewelry in the other bag so I decide I'm taking it I'm back to Liverpool you know it's funny I mean even though you weren't setting up a great resume you know just by coincidence you've just had a perfect resume yeah you know by that point you'd work for all the big stars like why wouldn't they hey, come on in. They have no idea. So it's really a perfect setup.

Yeah. So then redemption started to kick in. I thought, hold on a minute. So I kept the money. And I thought, shall I take 10 grand? Shall I take 20 grand? He won't know. And I'm going, no, I can't do it.

And my wife was the one who said to me, me don't you touch that well i thought you said you did take it and went back to liverpool no oh okay no or you just thought about it i thought about it yeah okay and that's when the redemption's kicking in and i i just got the two bags one day and i took them down to the office and i gave them to a secretary i said listen he left the safe open that 150 000 could have bought me a big mansion England. Right. But then I'd be on, I was already on the run.

I was on the lamb anyway. I'd be on the lamb from the United States. And I just, you know, I looked at the guy and I thought, you know, I've got a job. I'm doing well. And it was great. And then one day, you know, you had Andy Warhol would come over to the house. He'd buy his patents, David Hockney. Ed Rouge

He had Liechtenstein And one day He was getting this masterpiece delivered And he was so excited And Teddy, when it comes, let me know So it came in the afternoon And here's I am, I'm immature, I don't know About artwork

And the masterpiece came And I said, what is it? he said it's the mother than child Picasso okay and I went wow he said it's the only one in the world it was the mother than child and we hungry in the house

over the living room it was beautiful so the next morning I'm cleaning his office and I've seen on the table the invoice how much 75 million

so what went through my mind I'm calling me old buddy in New York honey Gibbons to come and get it so I'm having this battle with myself to steal the Bacassau right and I'm going well at the time you know when we were doing things we didn't think it out and now I'm getting old and

you know you're developing you think no come on you can't do that don't do that I was going to say and there's no market for that's right stolen art yeah and I thought to myself well that's where 75 million

are we ever going to sell that so then I told me Ronnie I said no we can't do it and we never done it and I was glad I never did it anyway and I and then then he left he I was with him for three years

he's to fly in a $50 million jet a Gulfstream a G4 and it was a hell of a job he was the one that in 1969 he was blackjacked

in the polo lounge by Frank Sinatra's bodyguards what does that Well, he was blackjacked. He was arguing in the polo lounge in Hollywood with Frank Sinatra, and he punched Sinatra in the face, and he gave Frank Sinatra two black eyes. So I write a chapter in the book. It's called All Black Eyes. And it's about the case in 1969. And Wiseman had told me all about it. And Frank Sinatra's bodyguard? Yeah, he blackjacked him. Within an hour, Matthew, the blackjack.

The blackjack is, he came back of the head. Yeah. Oh, okay. The back of the head with the phone. Within an hour, Frederick Wiseman was in Cina-Sinai Medical Center, getting a brain tumor off his brain. Yeah, a hell of a story. It was all the rat pack.

Yeah. So he leaves, he decides that he wants to go back to Maryland, because that's where he's based, mid-Atlantic Toyota, and he moves. So then I'm available again then. Tells the agency, Dora, one of the greatest agencies in the world, I'd go over to her and she said to me

I've got a job for you tomorrow you've got to go to Beverly Glenn meet some woman she's the hair to Max Factor Max Factor Yeah the makeup line

Yeah multi-billionaire Right She interviews me for the father Max Factor junior within an hour

I'm sitting in the living room in Beverly Glen in Holmby Hills with Max Factor and he says you're a young delightful young man he said would you like to come and work for me and he said we drive every day for lunch with the nurse we go to Malibu I go and buy me stocks every day

and I end up with Max Factor How long does that job last? Well, what happened, Matthew, is my sister was coming through the immigration and she had my phone number and it was Max Factor's. So I get to call from her. I was with him for about seven or eight months.

Right. And then this phone goes and I went, Hello, who was this? And she said, it's the United States immigration. We'd like you to come down to Los Angeles Airport. I said, what for? I said, no, I said, you got the wrong number, my friend.

And I put the phone down. I had to pack my bags, and I was gone. And then I went and got my wife, and I ended up on Wilshire Boulevard in a motel. Okay. And then that was there. So then I decided, Matthew, to go home. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of, it's catching up with you. Yeah, well, I was getting very sick.

I was, I was actually getting sick, you know, I'd been to see psychologists and psychiatrists. They'd put me on a lot of medication because of the trauma that was catching up from when I was a child. Right. And I was working. I used to go to Muhammad Ali. he's gym in Santa Monica and I train there with Jimmy Alice.

He was the WBA heavyweight champion of the world in 1972. He was a friend of mine. And I'd just add enough. I thought, I got to go back. Right. I go back. I get to Liverpool. All the technologies changed.

That was a little bit apprehensive going through the airport that I could be on the wanted list. Right. And I just fly three. so I meet some of the old friends and I go to a lawyer's office about a week later and I ask him to do a background check on me and he said I'll put age into the department of prosecution it came back we went and had a cup of coffee it came back no warrants no arrests they had nothing on me he pushes it in front of me

he said you're free I went wow so why did immigration question your sister if and call you if was it because she had references on her that she'd worked in the United States

and they knew that she was coming for the job probably checking the system that, um, I was, oh, I was illegal. I was my visa had went out. Okay. Okay. That was the reason, Matthew. Right.

But you thought it was for the, uh, did you, do you think it was? I didn't know what it was. I never knew what it was. It could have been anything. So I just bailed out. Right. I was a, I was a step ahead of them all the time. so did you did you stay in liverpool or where'd you

i stayed in liverpool and then i got an offer from the mafia the the mafia then liverpool asked me to stay and things had changed then matthew importation Liverpool is one of the biggest places for importation right so they would importan importation importation was millions coming in from

Kenya and South America and I sit with them and eventually I decline and they said Terry you're crazy we're making a fortune

and I just thought no I can't do that because I'd seen the way my life had changed in Beverly Hills and I wasn't that man that I was when I left Liverpool even though I'm a safe man and I thought I could go back to Santa Monica was beautiful

Hollywood, Beverly Hills was beautiful and we could go back so I stayed on for about eight weeks I turned them all down some of them are dead most of them are dead today they got life in jail they became multi multi millionaires actually I can name a couple of them

one is Colin Smith and they were important 72 million from South America and something happened with that load the Colombian sent a contractor to Liverpool and blew his head off outside of gym

and killed him my other friend in Speak professional fighter Tony synit was a bully unfortunately a great guy but a bully he stepped on the toes of my friends

he also was coming out of a gym because he all go to gyms and he was machine gun to death he was killed was this while you were there this was late after you go back

it was later I would have connection to them and the men that did that. Yeah, so I decided, no, it's not my life. Right. And I came back to America. Yeah, I was going to say, you know you can live a good life at this point. Yeah.

And, you know, I mean, I don't know how hard being a butler is, but it seems like a pretty good life. I mean, you're taking. Actually, actually, Matthew, it's like just being like a slave, really. but you get the you know there's there's good benefits to it right and at the end of the and you've got to be consistent you've got to know what you're doing you've got to have the cat of you know you've got to be very catamistic and you've got to be

you've got to have a lovely personality and be a yes say yes say no say yes I will do that I won't do this and it was just it was just a personality that I had right yeah um yeah I have that I'm extremely personal a very very polite it wouldn't matter who you are i'm going to be polite wouldn't matter it doesn't really matter what you say to me i'm going to be pretty pretty pretty polite no matter what you know

it's i've very even temper that's the best way to go yeah it's the only way yeah i might cut your throat later but yeah i'm going to be like absolutely yeah you're right that's my fault i apologize let me take care of that let me yes so yeah um so you go back to you go back to is it L.A.? Yeah. I went back to Dora. Okay. And she tells me,

I've got this job in Orange County. It's for an attorney. His name is Teddy Giles. I don't know that name. He worked on the Hillside Strangler, the freeway killer.

Okay. Fred Barr Douglas made and I go to this estate in Orange County on five acres of land. There's a 5,000 square foot house for me and my wife to live in, 11,000 square foot house where he lives, he has a cinema, five acres outside with peacock, swans and flamingos, waterfalls, a million dollar tenets. his court and he hires me as his butler. So it's a tough gig.

I didn't think to me. It was hard. So I told him, I said, I'm not sure whether I'm going to take the job because tomorrow I've got an interview in Malibu with Johnny Carson. Right. And he goes, no, Terry, you know, I feel comfortable with you. You know, you're young man, you're lovely.

He said, I'll give you a sports car. He said, I own a Toyota dealership in Garden Grove, Garden Grove Toyota. He said, and I'll give you extra money. Anyway, we took that job, me and my wife. And I was living in Orange County in a $5,000, well, a $2.5 million home with my own swimming pool. And I was taking care of a $15 million estate. And who would come? none of them

Oprah Winfrey he was their lawyer um are you legal in the United States at this point I'd got a new visa okay when I left England

when I was in England in Liverpool I renewed my visa so actually I'm glad you said that because Ronald Reagan who I'd met at at Wiseman's house he used to bring his daughter there

Maureen for tennis lessons and I'd met him a few times And this is when he was governor of California, right? Yeah, nobody was thinking Nobody was president Oh, okay He was president then I think he was president

I didn't take too much notice But he had an amnesty Okay He was the only amnesty In American history So my wife went out she went to the immigration in Santa Ana and got us the applications

for green cards and that's how I got my green card was through the amnesty and then I was legal so I stayed with Terry Giles I took care of a guy called Bill Millard the fifth richest man in the world in the 80s

he owned computer land I took care of him and he was an interesting guy yeah he was um Giles was defending him on a lawsuit

I think it was 360 million at the Alameda Courthouse in San Francisco okay for what what was the lawsuit do you remember It was, the lawsuit was, um, where the, they were fighting over the, you know, the agreement in the contract. Okay.

And Giles won he. And then Bill Millard went missing. He went to the Cayman Islands and he was found 25 years later. He owed the taxes hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars. So he, okay, I thought it too many, like he died. You mean he just disappeared? Just disappeared. And he, and he went there for like 25 years.

And then they found him. Yeah, very interesting guy. And Oprah would come with Stedman, you know, and that was a very interesting job. This is just to have five acres of land to myself, like I'm living like a billionaire. Yeah. Yeah. How long, and how long did that go on? Well, I was happy because my wife got pregnant

And then Mr. Giles and Mrs. Childs got very unhappy They didn't want a child on the property Okay And they wanted someone that didn't have any children Because maybe the child would have been a liability On the property Being a lawyer Right

so I was happy I was having a baby you know my life was changing so um we left we left and I bought a little house in Santa Ana what year was this by the way that was an 89 90 okay and we left and um I write a brilliant chapter on Teddy Giles yeah how long

sorry how long um so how old were you at this point now I'm about you're in 40s right no just no 34 35 something like that okay

so I just settle down and I go to daughter and I make a phone call to her and she's got me a job with the bishop in Orange County I don't know who that is the bishop in Orange County

at the time was McFarland Okay This is for the Catholic Church Yeah It's so ironic I was abused by them And here they am now I'm going to a school

called Marta Day High School All the priests That live at a house And I'm going to be taken care of them. Right. So the bishop interviews me and he hires me. And I'm cooking for them every night.

So one Monday morning I get there and there's commotion upstairs and a nurse comes down. And I looked at her, I thought, who are you? Oh, she said, we've got a patient upstairs. And it was one of the priests. she said come up and meet him you know you can you'll be doing the in the cooking for him

and he's laying in the bed he's gone he's on IVs and I put two and two together in my head I thought something wrong with this guy here well the AIDS epidemic had came in hadn't he right and I put it together

and I was right and the bishop was the priest in the bedroom he had AIDS and also his name was Jack Lord and he was a child abuser and he

they'd done a settlement in Orange County on him for 3.5 million and paid the parents off he was a child molester Right That name sounds familiar Yeah, Jack Lord And then at the time

It was going all over Orange County At the time Schools were getting Investigated And then There was priests in L.A. And Boston All getting investigated

So there was There was a massive investigation in Orange County against all, like one school was Father Harris in St. Margarita's High School. And a few of them were interviewed. Anyway, the Catholic Church put it into a nutshell. Who defends them? Who's the lawyer for the children? none other than Teddy Giles

he's the lawyer he defends the children and they do the largest settlement in American history for 100 million so they but I'm sure then they

so they bury all those cases right I'm sure there's a yeah so I write in the book about the Bishop McFarland about the Catholic Church I tell the story how long do you work with

for them it was quite a few months very few months and you could just sell you just see by looking at them when they were having the dinner the behavior out of them very sick people

and here I am myself saving them and what I'd gone through I'd had the biggest lawsuit in British history and then I'm working for these and then the biggest lawsuit here in American history and then who do I work for? It was Teddy Giles.

Right. There's a lot of incidents. Yeah, it's crazy. Absolutely bananas. who where do you end up after that I was in when I was in prison waiting for trial there was a three million dollar

heist on the docks of traveller's checks and I had them in my I bought 5,000 I gave 5,000 and I bought 25,000 and I brought them to the United States with me

when I went back home. They were in my mother-in-law's home. Okay. So I decided to go to San Francisco and cashed them in. Are these like non-traceable or? Well, you know, they were stolen, American Express. Now, I used a British license.

I thought, I'll make myself a quick $25,000. Did you? Yeah, I went to San Francisco. I cash $20,000 in a week. And then I had $5,000 left. So I got this idea one morning to go to Disneyland. Okay. With a friend.

And I went to Disneyland. And I was on Main Street. And one woman didn't like the way I'd signed the check. So she called the police. And I got arrested on Main Street in Disneyland. But, okay, so the checks were stolen. Yeah. They know they're stolen?

Yeah, they ran a check on it. Yeah. So they ran the check. and eventually they're stolen from England so I'm thinking hey hang on a minute

are they going to come after me for the $3 million house off the docks and I'm in custody and you know as you know Matthew each check you write is a felony

each one is a felony so I get I get done with four felonies and I hire one of the greatest lawyers in Ange County. His name is John Barnett. He defended the cops in the Rodney King case.

Okay. And he comes back to me and he says, Teddy, they want you to go to jail for four and a half years. I found those checks. Yeah, but it was still Even if you ever found them I was guilty with the felony Even if I found them and I never signed them

Then I found them because then I didn't do I didn't commit a crime Right So you know I couldn't Matthew I couldn't get out of it Couldn't get out of it So John gets me John gets me

A deal I get 18 months months. In a California prison? Yeah, Orange County Jail. Oh, okay. I'm going to say that sucks. Yeah, it was brutal. Yeah.

So I'll go into jail. Two guys are trying to pick on me. And he said, are you Irish? I went, yeah, I'm the Irish Mafia. I said, when we get upstairs, I'm going to fucking kill the two of years. I'm going to knock the both of you out. And they went. Wow.

So they separate me and put me in the tank on my own. So I did a few months in there, and then I went to an open prison. And what is that? I'm an open prison. It's like a farm. Okay. Yeah, it's called James Music in Orange County. Yeah, in the federal system, they'd call that a camp.

Yeah, it lives a camp. You go with in the camp. Matthew made a big mistake the next morning. I'm on top of the bunk, and I get down and put my boots on. And the guy downstairs said to me, Hey, mother such and such, get your laughing boots off my bed. And I went, oh my God. So this Mexican guy comes over to me, he said, he's, he's the boss of the jail.

I said, is he? I say, we'll soon see. So the next morning, Matthew, they used to get us up with Vietnam music at 5 a.m. ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding you get this that music going off it's crazy so we're going to the recess and um on the commissary i bought some cigarettes so i said to the guy you want a cigarette and as i give him the cigarette had a towel wrapped around the hand and i just went bang and knocked him out and he fell like like a tree I got these two black guys

The black guys went, wow They said, pick him up And call him on the bed I said, go and tell that God He fell over and banged his head I got away with it Right And then everything was peaceful in the camp

It was just a big bully So I did my time And as I was coming out And they said to me Are you a citizen? And I just said yeah I said Yeah, I'm a citizen

Anyway, that was at a win home I had the house in Orange County And within about I'd say about six weeks Early hours in the morning Four guys knocking on the door The FBI Why?

Bang, bang, bang Mr Mugin Yeah With federal agents you're under the rest so what for we're taking you to court this afternoon for deportation

you're a felon oh so you're you're it invalidated your your green card yeah well I've committed that was a felon

right for felonies so they put me in deportation goes to see the judge he said what you do I said I've got my own business I formed a window cleaner business maintenance cleaning chandeliers

and I get put into deportation and I get a lawyer by the name of John Alcorn he's a judge's advocate and I fight the case but at the time Matthew I'm doing public speaking

for international toastmasters and I've become the president of international toastmasters and I'm teaching all the immigrants English so I told John I said well John let me defend myself in the courtroom

so we have a big trial in Los Angeles on Olive Street and the prosecution gets up and he says Your Honor he needs to be deported and then John said to me go on Teddy defend yourself I got up

said Your Honor the scales of justice at half inch off that even I said let me tell this man this prosecution my life and I told them my life story and I said

I took care of a dying priest that was dying of AIDS I worked with the Catholic Church as an orderly and I have the references Your Honor to show you I said my wife's the United States citizen, my daughter's a

United States citizen I don't deserve to be deported the question he asked me Matthew was well what books do you read? And I said, I've read many books in my life. And I said to him, what books do you read?

I said, what do you think is the best book to read? And I said to him, you've asked me a question. I said, there's only one book, the Bible. Book in the world. That's the book I read. And the judge just went, no more questions from you. And he gave me a stay in America. And I got my green card back the next day.

Nice. When was that? God, that was in full. I'd say in the 90s, 95, 96. Okay. Yeah. So how old are you at this point? Oh, 40 odd.

Yeah. Did you go back to work as a, as a butler? Well, I actually, I went to his bodyguard. For who? Well, we had this, we had a window maintenance in Orange County. And we'd had a bankruptcy in the 90s. now the county tax treasurer was Bob Citron

had gambled $480 million on the stock market and lost it of the county's money I was going to say of the county's money yeah it's not good yeah so can imagine

what happened to Orange County how affluent it was all the rich Orange County went into backroomcy Now I was friend with Bob And I felt sorry for them So one day I was in his house with his wife Teddy And I said to him You know you need some protection

You know you're going outside the front house All the time, the news is after you Do you want me to help you? I mean what You know these people have got no common sense Very, very highly educated but common sense on the street like we've got. They don't have it.

So I went to the back neighbor across the street and I said, excuse me, can we use your house to go out the back door? And they said, yeah, they said, there's too much news on Shannon Lane and Santa Ana. And then Bob said to me, will you be my bodyguard? And I went, yeah. So I took him to court.

Every week. And I drove him in my car. Nobody knew. And he thanked me so much. And he actually, he didn't ever get any gain for the $480 million. It was an error that he'd made a bad judgment. Right. He never stole anything, Matthew.

And the judge gave him 12 months in a food bank. Still. That's a lot. he got lucky he got lucky yet but he never made any gain for his own life but at the time then in the 90s the whole of orange county had gone bankrupt it was absolutely bananas right so how long did you work at the bodyguard for for was this all about six six months Yeah. Yeah, it was interesting.

Did Jericho go back to being a butler? Yeah. I started in Newport Beach on the coast in California. I started what you call a butler's dinner menu. So I'd go to certain homes on the weekends and I'd do dinners for private people. Right. The likes of a guy down in Newport Beach called Jim. Slemons he owned a Mercedes dealership I'd go to his house in his multi-million

dollar home and I'd be the butler for the weekend and while I was there I met a man on the moon who's Neil Armstrong no Buzz Aldrin so Buzz Aldrin comes with his wife and Buzz says what a lovely meal because it was all gourmet you know and he said

tell you can I have your number and went yeah and I ended up going to Buzz Aldrin's house in Emerald Bay in Laguna Beach and he's

shown me all the stuff in his house and I write in the book The Man on the Moon right and I was just talking to him and I said what was that Apollo 10 or 9

you went in I said I flew in a G4 I said have you ever flown in a G5 he went yeah been in a G5 and I was just laughing with him and he was dead nice and then I just

my life just settled down you know my daughter was going to a private school and I moved out of Santa Ana and I moved to a place called Irvine yeah it was crazy and then I get calls from I got a call to go to see

Marlon Brando and I thought to myself I got to go and see him I'd read so much about him and I loved the way he acts in the movies so he lived on my Holland drive and daughter said to me you got to take this

job you've got to take you i said well let me just go so i drove to my holland drive and i i knew jack nicholson lived down the end the other end of the street i'd heard that so i go to marl and brando's house and he had a maid and she let me in and i went in the house on my holland drive and i sat with him and i'll be honest with you matthew i didn't want to work for him him. Why is that? It just, you know, his lifestyle, his behavior, I just, I couldn't do it because of the way he led his life. But my objective was to just sit with him and watch him. And I wanted to say things too muchly at the time, but I couldn't.

I said, listen, I felt like saying, listen, Marlon, we're the real deal on the streets of Liverpool. You might be the godfather. That's what I felt like saying to him. But I was the godfather of my gang, and you couldn't do what we did. It would be absolutely impossible. I felt like saying that to him. But the objective to meet a lovely man like that, that had been in the movies, was like very honorable. and I left

and he said well when he do you think you're going to come and work for me I went well let me talk to the agency the agency the next day daughter said to me Teddy he wants to meet you again

and I said no I don't want to work for him it's it was brilliant because I loved Malam Brando right he's in one of my favorite movies called The Score.

Oh, yeah, the score, yeah, but that was with the, yeah, and he's in the bathtub. Yeah, yeah. He's in the bathtub. Yeah, it's with, Ed Norton. Ed Norton and De Niro, Robert De Niro. Yeah, De Niro's got, yeah, De Niro's got his own little restaurants. Yeah, he's, that's, it's one of my favorite movie. It's a great movie.

Is it? You like that? And then De Nato, he's got the little, the restaurants, he's camp at the tables at night, and he's dating a black woman. Yeah. Yeah, he, yeah,

like I didn't see it coming. I really thought Edward Norton got him. You know, his character, I really thought, oh, he just screwed him over.

He screwed it. And then when he pulls out, when he's actually switched the, yeah, and he walks out. Man, that was great. Yeah.

But I'd been to a lot of movies, stars, Holmes. I went to Spielberg. I went to Stephen in Warner Brothers and I thought, I didn't think not another at the time, you know, Matthew. I was just a guy doing my job, but it's so ironic today when I tell my stories and the book that I wrote. Did you know the book went to number one? No, I was going to ask you, when did you start that?

Was it like once you kind of retired or did you, were you taking notes, like, just kind of. No, you just decided one day I'm going to start writing it? No. Well, let me go back to Spielberg. Okay. Be your audience after watching. I went back to Spielberg because he asked me to come and work for him, but he had these parrots in the kitchen.

And he said, you've got to change the paddock cage every day. And he was married to an actress called Amy Irving at the time. And it was his behavior. that he just didn't. I just found it inappropriate that I just couldn't work for them. Nothing specific? No.

Okay. No, I probably could have done, you know, but it was just the way I didn't want to be clean and padded poop up because I'm a butler. You know, I'd lost a lot of jobs because of the behavior out of some of the stars. Like Mickey Rooney. He lived in Westlake Village in Ventura.

He was just, you know, you couldn't work for them because of behavior. I'll tell you where I did go. I went to a guy called Richard Donner. He did all the lethal weapon movies. Okay. And my friend was his butler. And unfortunately, he killed himself in Richard Donner's home. yeah

he took one of Richard Donner's guns in his house and he killed himself very sad and then I got a call to go to Joan Rivers and to take care of Sir Lawrence Olivia and that was an honour

to take care of him and he was a lovely man very quiet and then Joan was married to a guy called Edgar Rosenberg he committed suicide yeah

yeah and Joan Rivers asked me to come permanently to her but she had all these bodyguards and dogs I didn't want to be in that environment so I never went and then I get other offers

to go and work for certain people and I just I was worn out with her and then I was going back to Beverly Hills one day and I was on the freeway

and I've seen this car coming in and off the freeway and eventually he rewends me and he's a big kid and I told him listen you're under the influence parking car over here and I said I'm going to the hospital

and I got his documents and it was Tom Hanks's son okay Chet Hanks so a year later unfortunately I felt sorry for Tom in a way we filed a lawsuit

and then lawsuit went all over the world and then I was on TMZ they were calling me everything for being a fool for letting him go I didn't think that he should have been arrested because I think if somebody's under the influence it's an addiction it's not a crime

it's more of a mental problem so we got slaughtered by the news right and we eventually um I had someone right

yeah yeah you settled the lawsuit yeah we settled it in San Diego and just to get it over it was horrible I could have kept it going and I didn't really want to keep it going

Right So then my daughter I raised it in Orange County with my wife And I was out with a one night And she stood by me And she said, Dad, why don't you write a book? And I said,

No, I never thought about it. So the pandemic was coming around. You had some time on your hands. Yeah, yeah. So what I did is she ordered me all these big books to writing. So I just sat there one day, Matthew, and I just went. In 1963, 15 men were going to hijack a train and steal the Queen's money. So I write about the Great Train.

robbery and then I just go there was only 15 in that gang but in my gang there was only five I was eight years of age and that's how I start writing so it took me three years to write it

did you and you got a publisher did you get to get a literary agent I mean did you know I did it all myself I had a guy help me he typed it right but I wrote the whole thing

right no I meant like when you got it published did you go to a publisher well somebody had got in touch with Sean Atwood in England then he has a crime podcast right and somebody had said to him there's a guy in California

that you've got to interview okay I need to interview Sean Atwood I think I think about this once every couple months, I think, I've been on his show twice. Why haven't I interviewed him? It's not that he's, I've never even asked. I'm assuming he would be interviewed.

I don't know why I haven't, but the guy in California, you just said, I need to interview. So, um, Sean calls me. Right. And he goes, hello. And I go, who this? He went, Teddy, it's Sean out with in England. I said, what do you want? I was joking with him, you know.

He said, Teddy, you've got to come to London. I said, let me think about it. So I thought about it for the month. He calls me again. I said, I think I'll go. So I went to London. And how long you were interviewed by him, right? Several times.

Actually, I did three podcasts with him, and I think it was the second biggest podcast that he's ever done in Britain. It became, got a really big hit, and it was all about my life. And I think YouTube did slow us down. Got a massive audience. And it was up there a lot. Right. And so at the time, Sean told me he had a publishing company. And he said, and he never asked me.

So when I come back to the United States, I asked him. I said, do you think you'd want to publish the book? And he went, yeah. So he said, send me all the information. And then we got it going. and then we designed the cover I wrote everything

I corrected everything backwards and forwards for six months and it was published in December and it went to number one and three categories in best in crime best seller in crime it went to I was number one

and El Chappo was number two. And then, yeah. How did it do in the UK? I think it's doing great. Yeah, because the UK is big on true crime. They love true crime. Yeah, they love it. And Sean left me a message the other day.

He said, yeah, your book's doing brilliant. So basically, I'm glad I did it now. It was all because of my daughter. Right. But the all objective is redemption. So the book is like, you know, the Liverpool bank robber to the Hollywood butler. And I can show it to your audience when we conclude. Yeah, we'll put a link in the description too.

And I'll, you know, explain that we can put the link to the book in the description box for the video. Yeah, it's done very well. but I think it would inspire people. I've got lovely messages from all over the world on YouTube. That basically is it's redemption. Right. To help people, Matthew. And I believe it's just gone into the prisons in one of the prisons.

I got a mail yesterday. They put in a notorious library prison in Manchester Strangeways. they're putting it in there so it's been quite a journey of life I write 45 chapters of the book and what are you doing now well I was taking the writing the second book

and I just live like in Laguna Beach now and I worked on this hell of a project and going back to England I've been invited to do some interviews and the guy in London and works with all the film makers Stephen Gillihan he's an IRA man

he was an IRA man I don't ever heard of him Stephen Gillihan he wanted me to come to London and work with him and get some projects going so I've just at the moment I'm working

in Laguna Beach with a beautiful family Mike Thomas and his son Keegan and we're putting episodes together for the movie section one

so did you sell the life rights no we're just in the process at the moment putting section one section two section three and section four together for the Bible Right

You know what The Bible Yeah And I think it would be I think it would be I think it would make a great movie Who pitches that for you Are you gonna

Do you have an agent that's going to pitch it? No we're probably down the line We you know We'll We'll form something And create it But some of the feedback That I got from the

um reviews on amazon was like out of this world and the title people shone asked me said how did you get the title i said well the liverpool bank rob to the hollywood butler is beautiful right from the little child little child yeah nice it's nice and simple it sums it up very quickly yeah And, you know, I speak for most of the guys that have passed away. Like Joey, he went on in Portation. He became a multi-millionaire.

And everyone was afraid to say things about him in Liverpool, but I wasn't because I knew that I'd sort him out, you know. And I did sort him out when I go home. there was two guys they got shotguns and they wanted to go and kill him and I said no don't do that

yeah Teddy we're going to kill him I said no you're not going to kill anybody I said let's go and tax him and we taxed him and we got a hundred and fifty thousand out of him and he was feed I put the feet of life in him

for what he'd done a few months later his son was killed he was shot in the head and then Joey got 21 years in Scotland in jail

come out of jail and he officiated on his own sick and he died and most of them they're all dead right they all died Matthew

it's very sad well how do you feel about this interview brilliant okay yeah it's great well I'm gonna do you have anything else to say

before I wrap it up yeah I'd like to say to the people in America give them a nice if you ever watching this interview and you want to get into gangsterism or you want to commit crimes

and you're watching? No. The best thing you can do is get an education and I'll give you an example of that. I was talking to a guy a few months ago and he said to me Terry, I should have made millions. I lost it.

I said, no, you never went to jail. So here's what I said to, Matthew. When you wake up in the morning and you're not in a cell, you're a millionaire. Right. When you walk down the street where you live on the beach, you're a millionaire. When you don't have a prison officer locking you up at night, you're a millionaire. And then when you wake up the next morning, you're a millionaire. So you are a millionaire, my friend.

And you've never done any prison. so you're a millionaire yeah it's a good life out here you don't really it's too bad you know like for me I had to go to prison to really realize how good it is out here oh yeah people don't realize they want this they want that I've seen it all I've seen it all in Beverly Hills

I've seen everything when you wake up in the morning people want to do things and you know people say oh yeah I would have loved to rub the bank and nah If I had my way, I would just, so getting back to your audience and telling them, don't get a good education and think about your life and better yourself and get some good education behind you, get a family,

because that's better than all, any kind of gangsterism in the world. I've been with all of them in London. They've all passed away. They've all got killed. So life is very precious. Don't take it for granted. That's my message to your audience. Hey, thank you guys so much for watching the interview.

If you liked it, do me a favor and subscribe to the channel. Hit the bell so you get notified of videos like this. Share the video to your friends and family so that they can enjoy it. Also, I'm going to leave in the description box. We're going to leave the link to Terry's book. I really appreciate you guys watching. Check out the book. Thank you for checking out the interview.

See you. Thank you.