Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - How Detroit's Luxury Car Thief Made Millions | Dawgface Calderon

Starting point is 00:00:00 We had a carjacking ring. I put the button down shirt on, go to the dealership. I have a pistol on me, and we go for a test drive. And doing a test drive, we snatch your ass, have the motherfucking phone cars and take them to the chop shop. So I've never said this on any platform before ever. The first time I got in trouble was for a strong-arm robbery. There's a little white guy who had a mangoose bike, and I wanted it,

Starting point is 00:00:20 and I just strong-garved his ass. How old were you? 12. This is in your neighborhood? No, no. We had to go to the white neighborhood. Come on, man. They don't got no good fucking mongooses

Starting point is 00:00:32 over there with the black people stand, bro, I had to go out by Waterford, Michigan. I went out to where the white people live at where they have good shit. Right, you're saying? So I saw a little white key on the bike and I had a strong arm with his ass for the fucking bike and took the fucking bike.

Starting point is 00:00:45 Yeah. And you got, did you get caught? Catch you? Fuck, yeah. I got about a block and a half and the police. You don't go in white neighborhood just stealing shit from white boys

Starting point is 00:00:54 and think you're going to ride into the sunset. No, I went into, so going into Waterford, Michigan, it's kind of like, So whatever the sub, whatever, whatever, just think about the widest, white suburb. Right. And in the, into metropolitan. I think the one I grew up in.

Starting point is 00:01:09 Right. Just imagine, you're right, they already, they already have eyes on you anyway. I didn't know this. They already, as soon as they see you walk into the neighborhood, they already, they're going to belong there. This is 1984. This is not now where neighborhoods are like mixed, right? They knew you didn't belong there. I think I got about a block and a half.

Starting point is 00:01:27 So what happens? So you grab the bike, you get caught. Do you go to, do you go to, how long? I think I spent three weeks, three weeks the first time. I went in there and, you decide, you know what, this isn't for me. No, I'm not doing this anymore. Never crossed my mind. I'm going back to school.

Starting point is 00:01:41 I'm going to study. No. I'm going to get my degree in a CPA. No. Never crossed my mind. I'm going to be a lawyer. This is a good experience? Once you get locked up.

Starting point is 00:01:52 You're either all in or all out, right? So once you get locked up, it is truly, a university full of people who are trying to perfect being criminals. Oh, yeah. And when you're locked up at 12 years old, you're around 13, 14, 15, 16 year old kids,

Starting point is 00:02:13 they are more seasoned than you are. So it was nothing about, don't do it again. There was no lesson to be learned. The lessons I learned by listening to the stories would be a better criminal. Try something different.

Starting point is 00:02:26 Oh, you should have never did that. You should have waited until you should have caught him at the BMX track and took it and it was, the BMX track is closer to the hood. You had made it home with the bike versus going out into a neighborhood. You went, you were too deep into the white neighborhood. Are you fucking crazy?

Starting point is 00:02:41 So that's what it was. Throw the bike, throw the bike in the bushes and then just walk home and go back for it later. All that kind of shit. No, so the thought of, the thought of, no, it never crossed my mind, not one time. Not once. They never, the thought of maybe I should have done it. Never crossed my mind because the desire to have a bike like that was, it outweighed the consequences of what would happen if I got caught.

Starting point is 00:03:10 And that is the story of my life in this entirety, right? I'm going to do whatever I need to do to get what I need to get to hell with the consequences. And that, that, that, that, nobody's never asked me that question before, mind you, right? So as I sit back and think about it, no, I never crossed my mind. mind not to do it again. I'm in there. It was just, it's about doing it better, doing it in a way. It's just like you get education. You should have did that. You should do it this. Right. And when you're surrounded by people who have all, who all are locked up for a crime, it's never about don't do. It's never about you come from a good household. Your mom loves you. It's never that.

Starting point is 00:03:49 Not in the urban environment. It's never that. It's always be a better criminal. So what does your mom do? She worked at a, uh, uh, uh, uh, for General Motors and she owned her own beach line as well. So did you continue to see your dad? No, no. After I saw him, after the divorce, I saw him twice

Starting point is 00:04:12 in my preteen adolescence. Then I didn't see him again until I came home from prison. I came home from prison. I saw him once before he passed away. This is the guy that had raised you up to the age of eight and left. Yes, yeah. And you're calling him your dad, but later you found out. At 15, I found out that he wasn't my dad.

Starting point is 00:04:32 My mom told me the truth that he wasn't my father. How does that happen? Well, I want to say that I had sneaky suspicions. Right. Because I don't look like my brothers, right? My brothers have, they're generally speaking, they're light skin. They have smaller, they're smaller in stature than I am. And they have, like, brown and gray eyes.

Starting point is 00:04:52 And I look nothing like them. So I grew up wondering why I didn't look like my three older brothers. So I want to say I had sneaky suspicions, but I had no clue because it was like one of the best kept secrets in the world. Back then, see, secrets didn't just start in this generation or even the previous generation. Secrets in terms of whose kid is whose and who cheated and who were the infidelity started and where it came from that. It's been going on for a lifetime. So I've always wondered why I didn't look like my three older brothers. But I never imagined.

Starting point is 00:05:29 That happens all this, but who, that could be anything. Yeah, he should always say, you look like, you look more like your mom, yeah, you do your dad type thing. And I, I bit down on that and I, I digested that and it just was, what it was, I looked more like my mom than my dad or so I thought. That was the story he was telling me because I think I asked one time, why don't I look like my brothers? And she was like, well, you look more like me.

Starting point is 00:05:52 Your mom loves you and blah, blah, blah, blah. And that was cool for me. Yeah. That was cool enough for me. I bit down on that shit, hook, line, and sinker. Get him off this subject as quick as possible. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Starting point is 00:06:03 And so I can remember growing up. I can remember, I found out at 15 that the person who I thought with my father wasn't my father, she told me. And what happened was, is that when I look back at it, when you're a kid,

Starting point is 00:06:18 you hear conversations, but you don't know. So I can remember conversations between my mom, my aunts, and some of my mom's closest friends. And I can remember walking into a room and they hushed up, but the conversation was about, I was able to hear pieces of the conversations, and pieces of the conversations were like, why don't you just

Starting point is 00:06:36 tell him? He ain't shit no way, meaning the person who I thought was my father. Yeah. He ain't shit no way. Why don't you just tell him? That was what my aunt and some of my mom's friends were saying. And I heard, I caught when in that conversation maybe three or four times, but I had no clue of what it meant.

Starting point is 00:06:52 So when she did tell me, kind of clicked. It clicked. All those, everything that I thought, everything, every clue, I call like a Scooby-Doo clue, right? I examined everything. Right. And I remember those conversations like they were yesterday. And those conversations, some of them happened five, six, seven, eight years prior to her telling me, everything just came rushing back. I was examining everything.

Starting point is 00:07:14 Every conversation, I was planning it back in my mind. And every conversation. Suddenly, suddenly the whole picture was there and been there the whole time. You're kind of like, now it all makes sense. It all makes sense. Yeah, it all makes sense. So when he moved back down in Alabama, he took my three older brothers with him.

Starting point is 00:07:29 I stayed with my mom. And it was, we came from, I won't say affluence, but I came from a two-parent household, owned our own home. We were one of the, in terms of, I lived in the hood,

Starting point is 00:07:44 but we were like hood rich. My brothers had go-carts and mini-bikes, and we had campers and boats. We went on trips. We would go down south regularly, a couple times of the year during school breaks. And so when my mother and my father got divorced, my mother had to pay my father alimony, right?

Starting point is 00:08:03 And she had to pay him child support. Because he's tuck, he took the three older, my three older brothers, he took them with him. So she had to pay him alimony because she was making the most money because she owned their hair salon and she worked in the plant. And he was a truck driver.

Starting point is 00:08:17 So she made more money than him. So she had to pay him alimony and child support for my three older brothers. I didn't have a clue about that until did did you guys have to move out of the house did you have to yeah okay we ended up losing our house my older brother got in trouble he had

Starting point is 00:08:32 caught armed robbery and kidnapping charge and so in order to save him he was he he had committed he did all this crazy shit with he was 16 when it happened he was with guys who were like 18 19 years old and the 1819 the grown guys told on him so they were

Starting point is 00:08:48 going to send him to prison we're going to try him as an adult and send him to prison so my mom mortgage the house is paid for she she put she put she took out a loan against the house to pay for his legal expenses and she saved him because he didn't go to prison um he went to the training school he did like two three years in training school and came home um when when did you when did you uh meet your your real dad sorry this this you went on the vlad interview you just skated right over this when did you did you because you said it turns out your real dad you kind of knew him you actually

Starting point is 00:09:24 know who he was. I saw him in the neighborhood and he used to speak to me. And I can remember one time I was at my mom's cousin's house and he pulled up. And he said something to me.

Starting point is 00:09:39 Back then it was like a Boy Scouts thing. Like Boy Scouts were doing, there was a bunch of graping going on with the Boy Scouts back room up. So we was like, my mom was like anti-boy Scouts. You ain't going no camps, none of that kind of,

Starting point is 00:09:49 because we can't trust it, right? So I saw him, he pulled up, mom's cousin's house, her name was Vanessa, and he spoke to me. And at that point, time, I'm like, you know, because I was talking to strangers and all that kind of stuff, right? So he looked right at me and he spoke to me. He was just sitting there in the car, right? He knew who I was, he knew I was his son the whole time. He was married. My mom was married. And so he knew the entire time that I was his son. And the person who I thought was my father knew the entire time that I

Starting point is 00:10:18 wasn't his son, right? He went out and made a baby. My mother said, fuck you, right? We're not together anymore. So even though they were married, they were not together. Right. So it was like a separation. It was like a separation type thing. Yeah, absolutely. So it was 1986, 1987, I was 15 years old. She told me in 1987. But it was like March. Her birthday was March 21st. She told me at her birthday party, when everybody left, she told me she wanted to, because I was getting into trouble. I started getting locked up in 84. I started catching robbery

Starting point is 00:10:49 cases in 84. And I kept on getting in trouble. I think that because I didn't have contact with the person who I thought was my father I think that her friends and my aunt's probably convinced her like listen he's getting in trouble it's only going to get worse you already had one son your oldest son already went down that road

Starting point is 00:11:08 he always wanted to be a part of my life but my mom said no even after the divorce she still said no because it was a secret that she didn't want to admit to yeah right she's been saying this the whole time plus I'm thinking what mentally what does that do as far as trusting people that all the people in my life that I'm supposed to, I'm supposed to, that I could trust my mom and dad that both are in line to me about this.

Starting point is 00:11:32 That might have some problem. That might have some psychological damage. Maybe she was worried about that too. I don't think she's worried about me. I think she's more worried about herself. A lot of times when adults tell lies to cover up stuff, they're concerned about maintaining that lie because of what it means to them. They're not necessarily concerned about, I reject them.

Starting point is 00:11:53 I reject the whole concept of you're going to continue to tell a lie because of the high is going. I know there are some situations where if the truth of the matter comes out, it may affect somebody. But I believe that human beings are motivated by the lie is to make them feel better. The lie is not to make whoever the situation. It's not to make me feel better, it's to make her feel better. Because my father had several kids outside of his marriage that he took care of and that he raised. without any problems. So it wasn't like he wouldn't have took care of me.

Starting point is 00:12:28 It was just that he was married. She was married. So I think it was embarrassment that led the, that kind of like inspired the secret. Right. And that perpetuated the secret over years. I was getting to so much trouble. I think that her friends and my aunts

Starting point is 00:12:45 and other people in the family and told her, hey, listen, you might need to tell him who was real fun. In fact, I know that's what happened. I kept on getting me into trouble. I was getting into, it was escalating. They went from just strong on robbery, the armed robbery. I was committing all robberies at 14, 15 years old.

Starting point is 00:13:01 And when I was that, so in Michigan, they were not waiving you as an adult. Like, so in Michigan, I grew up in a time where most of the, like, most of the drug crews in my city and even in Detroit, back then, you can be 15, 16 years old and kill somebody and not go to prison. You, at most, you would go to the training school, BTS or W.J. Maxie of Green Oaks. You can kill somebody literally, like up until 1989 in Michigan. You can kill somebody.

Starting point is 00:13:33 First, you can walk, I can walk up to you and shoot you in your face at 15 years old, and they couldn't send me to prison. They would send me to W.J. Maxi, which is a boys training school. It's like a green oaks. Boot camp. Like a punk prison, like a child. It was like a kid. It was like a prison for juvenile.

Starting point is 00:13:48 So you can literally shoot. somebody in the face at 15 years old, they didn't start waving juveniles as adults until 1988, 1989. To most of the people, most of the people in the city of Detroit who were the biggest gangsters who were in drug crews, we were around just killing people and White Boy Rick Day. In the White Boy Rick Day, White Boy Rick was 15, 16 years old selling keys. The people who he was beefing with, some of them were grown, but most of his contemporaries were 15, 16, 17, 17 years old killing people.

Starting point is 00:14:20 People in broad daylight. Yeah, because there's no repercussions. No repercussions for it. And then that's how you made your bones. You would kill somebody, do a couple of years in training school, come back home. You would be home at 19. That was the old law. It can hold you up to you 19, and they had to let you go.

Starting point is 00:14:36 So you could have killed somebody at 16. They can only hold you to your 19 and let you go. So I think that her fear of me just becoming more and more aggressive and doing more and more crazy shit. I think that's what inspired her to tell me. And she asked him first if it was okay. And he was like, yeah, sure, no problem. I want, that's my son.

Starting point is 00:14:59 Right. I wish I could have had a relationship with him, but I couldn't because that wasn't your desire. Right. So what happened? Did you ever meet him and talk to him? Yeah, yeah. She told me, she told me in March of 87, who he was. And so I was born on the street called Sanford.

Starting point is 00:15:17 him and my half-brother, my half-sister and half-sistered have brothers that live two blocks over me, over from me, between the same two streets. I grew up knowing who they were, but not knowing who they were. So when she told me who he was, she said his name, his name was gravy. He called him Gravy. I remember my friend who I used to go to the boys club

Starting point is 00:15:41 with their father's name is Gravy. So I'm like, Gravy. Like, I mean, Trina. and Eric and Wayne stay on Edith I'm from Sanber like yeah as him so I grew

Starting point is 00:15:53 I'm 15 years old I have been knowing and then they flashed back I remember seeing him that's why so when I saw him outside of her cousin's house and he spoke to me

Starting point is 00:16:05 my cousin seen it she called my mom my mom came rushing over and cussed him out I didn't know what the cuss out was about but the cuss out was about I heard her saying to him stay the fuck away from my son

Starting point is 00:16:16 but they didn't compute. I didn't know. I thought maybe he was like some type of fucking a person. I didn't know some type of pervert or something. I didn't know.

Starting point is 00:16:23 Right? But he used to always put eyes. He knew where I was. He knew we lived at. And he used to always, he made his business to try to. So he was kind of there lingering, hoping maybe.

Starting point is 00:16:34 Yeah, he has eyes on me. And it's just never. Yeah. And here's a little known fact. He was a police officer. He was a police officer. And he was one of the, the most of the most.

Starting point is 00:16:46 It's ironic. Yeah, he was one of the most powerful police officers in the city of Punyak. I've never told the story before, right? His name was Willie Wilson, aka A.K.A. Gravy. He was one of the, he was one of the coolest police officers on the Punniak Police Department. Most of the gangsters in the city of Ponyak, where I grew up where I grew up, where I grew up, where he was cool. He was the kind of guy who would tell you, hey, you hot, go sit your ass down. So, when your name's on the hot list, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Starting point is 00:17:10 Right. So he was going, when I would get in trouble and go to court, my mom would call him. And he would come to court and talk to the judge on my behalf. And I didn't even know that he was my father. So before they would bring me to the courtroom, he would be in judge the shamers of my mom. And so the system knew that he was my father. Everybody knew about you. But me.

Starting point is 00:17:38 So once she tells you, do you go talk to him? Do you go, does he now kind of a part of your life? Or did he then become a part of your life? or it still was kind of too late you were already? No, she gave me his phone number and I called him. This was 87. She gave me his phone number. I called him.

Starting point is 00:17:51 I talked to him. He was real cool, like really nonchalant, really kind of like, you know, he was a soft-spoken guy. He was a kind of guy where, what he, because of who he was and what he did for living, what he said is what he said. He was a real, he had a real authoritarian voice, you know what I'm saying? Whatever he said, he's not used to hollering and yelling. So I talked to him over the phone.

Starting point is 00:18:15 I didn't actually meet him until 1989. It's the first time I met him. I went to his house to meeting. Right? I went to his house because he still stayed the same house that I knew the stadium

Starting point is 00:18:29 knowing I was a kid. I went to his house to meeting. I knocked on the door. All my brothers and sisters were there. I had a brother who went to the military. He was home. He had just finished basic training. He went to Marines.

Starting point is 00:18:41 And so he had just finished basic training. So he was home. before he went back. And I met my two brothers, Eric and Wayne. I met my sister Trina. They were all there in the house. They were all adults, but they were all just so happened to be over there. And I had between to meet them.

Starting point is 00:18:59 I met him for the first time I talked to him. And he was just like, hey, what you got going on? It was really, it was not that complicated conversation. He was like, hey, what did you get going on? Staying out of trouble, right? And even then, I didn't know that he was going into the court before I got there trying to like running interference for me

Starting point is 00:19:17 you know what I'm saying so just what it was I had the opportunity to to talk to me maybe four or five times before I went to prison no he would send me money he would find me I was still getting locked up I was still robbing and thugging and a fool and

Starting point is 00:19:36 the kind of things I found myself into the kind of crime that I was committing it was the kind of things that he couldn't just save me from yeah right I amped up that shit. I was shooting and robbing and looting. And it was just to that level to where I went to the training school. I was acting a fool.

Starting point is 00:19:51 What was the next time that you did something else? Robbery? Yeah. Rob, was it like a robbery robbery? Robbery, yeah. The next time I started robbing drug dealers at about 14, 15 years old. Everybody needs a good pair of jeans. What I like about the perfect gene is that the moment you put them on, they feel like sweatpants. They don't ever pinch or bind up. As a matter of fact, they're super stretchy. There's never any point where you feel like they're binding up on you or they're tight or they're

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Starting point is 00:21:20 I'm thinking they can't tell on me because they drug dealers. How are you going to tell on me when there's drugs? What are you going to do? Call and say, hey, he took my right? No, no, you can't, what are you going to do? Right. So I quickly went into robin drug drug dealers in my mind. And I formulate this conclusion by myself. I don't take anybody kind of like inspired me to do this shit.

Starting point is 00:21:41 I just watched it. My mother got on drugs. So I had a grudge against all drug dealers. When I was 12, at 12, my mother started, the first time I ever got locked up, my mother started using drugs when I was 12 years old. So she went from being the hardworking, beautiful person that I grew up loving and admiring. My mother was my first love, right? She was the hardest working person I knew.

Starting point is 00:22:01 So I went, so to see her get on drugs, it kind of like, it crushed me because I knew. It wasn't like she was on drugs my entire life. I knew how beautiful a person she was prior to the drugs. You watched the effect. I watched it, right? So I had a grudge against all drug dealers. So that's what inspired me to say, you know what? I'm going to start sticking these bitches up.

Starting point is 00:22:20 So that's just what I did. I started sticking the drug dealers. And on top of that, how are you going to tell me? All right. What are you going to tell the police? I took you dope? You know, it's funny. I wrote a story called Cash Logistics, these two brothers.

Starting point is 00:22:32 And one of him, same thing that you just said, his mom had gotten on drugs and was dating the drug dealers. she would see it. He's like, and I just despise these motherfuckers. And he was probably 14 or 15 and the first guy he robbed. And remember Vlad asked you in that interview. He said, well, I mean, you're like, you're like 13 years old. Like if a 13 year old tried to rob me, I just be like, you get out of here. You're joking. And you said, yeah, but I had a, yeah, but I have a pistol. And that's what he did. He had a gun. But he actually had a gun. And the guy was like, you know, you ain't going to do nothing. And he was like, what? And the guy goes, fuck you. And turn around to walk away.

Starting point is 00:23:09 he shot him in the ass. And he said, oh, I've shot him in the ass. He said, man, I shut a lot of people in the ass. He said, I was like, he said he, fuck hit the ground, and said, scrudge screaming throughout everything he had. He picked it all up around. Because now you know I'm serious. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:23:21 So that's what happens. Not even know what I'm serious. Right. So that's exactly what happened to me. Right? Because when you're young like that, they can tell. Older people can tell you're young. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:23:28 Their first thought process is they don't respect that you're young. You tell a little bitch that's out of here. Yeah. What are you going to do with that? No, but see, but you don't know, in my mind, in my mind, I played out robbing you before I robbed you. Like in Larry Berg effect. Larry Berg said he practiced shooting feet of rethroes in his mind before he ever took a physical shot. So I practiced in my mind robbing.

Starting point is 00:23:51 I played it out in my mind long before I ever did it, long before I ever had the courage to actually pull it off. Because it takes courage. It takes moxie, right, to do it. So how long does that go on before you get in a serious trial? like you get arrested again? I was getting caught back to back, back to back, back to back. I think I... There's just no real deterrent, right?

Starting point is 00:24:11 A few weeks here, a few weeks there? I was getting locked up. So what happened was between the ages of 12 and 17, I think I was free maybe a year and a half, three months here, a month here. I would get locked up. I would get caught. I would get locked up for three months or two months or 90 days, get out. the longest I was ever free between 12 and 17, I think it was 45 days was the longest stretch I ever went free without getting locked back up.

Starting point is 00:24:45 So I spent 90% of my teen years from 12 to 17, I spent 12 and 19 because I ended up shooting my stepfather for hitting my mama. So I think from 12 to 19, I spent. spent, I think I was free, maybe a year and a half from 12 or 19. Are you going to, so what, you're going to high school or? I never made, I was locked up. I got locked up. I think I was in a sixth grade. I was 12.

Starting point is 00:25:18 Yeah. Six, seven grade. The first I remember I got locked up. But when you go to these, these institutions, they try. They have school. They have school, but it's hard to figure, kind of get back into it, right? So do you end up getting your GED or? I ended up getting my GED, yeah.

Starting point is 00:25:30 I didn't finish high school, you know. You're being locked up. You're getting, you're getting, get. now. And these are all robberies. You never get it. You never start selling drugs, nothing like that. It's always just robberies. All robberies. I'm a, I'm a fanciful robber.

Starting point is 00:25:45 You know what I'm saying? So I grew up loving Billy the kid. Right? That's not the good thing either. Right. Right. Because listen, I didn't grow up watching all the black exploitation movies where people were getting robbed and all that kind of shit. I grew up admiring bleed of the kid, baby Felix Nelson, Bonnie and Clyde, I grew up watching the classic Great American heroes

Starting point is 00:26:07 The great American heroes are Jesse James You know what I'm saying The Billy the kid Those were my first I never wanted I always admired the criminals

Starting point is 00:26:19 I always admired the bank robbers The train robbers The stagecoach robbers I always admired that Because they had fuck it They had heart out of this world To gallop on you and stick You know

Starting point is 00:26:31 It was the odds were again them. So I always admire your ability to kid. So I think I was a Billy the Kid fan. So, you know, you know, most of these guys have a run of just a few, like, like Bonning Clyde was like 18 months before they were just gunned down. They didn't try and pull them over. They just gunned them down. Yeah. Because they knew what we, so I wanted to be that. I wanted to be that dangerous, right? Because the environment that I was living in. So at 15, I moved from Pontiac to Detroit. I was already with your mom? No. I moved by myself. You know, it was I didn't move. My mom never left Ponyay. I moved by myself. I moved to Detroit to sell drugs. My godfather was in a drug. I mean, my god brother was in the drug. I was a drug crew. So I moved from Ponyi to Detroit to sell drugs. Okay. That's why I moved out there. So I moved out of March of 87. I moved to Detroit by myself.

Starting point is 00:27:21 Specifically knowing you're going there. To sell drugs. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And what happens with that? I mean, is this like a street level dealing or is this? Yeah. Yeah. I was in a crew. I was in a, I was in a, I was in a, I was in a, I. I went to the East Saturday Tree in the Van Dyke-Carper area, and that's why I first started. The first time I ever sold drugs was on the East Saturday Trail. I went down there to sell drugs to make money. At that point in time, I kept all getting locked up, so I figured I needed a change of venue.

Starting point is 00:27:50 Right. I needed to change a venue. So my guy brother was, I met my God brother. We made each other each other's God brother in the youth home. So that's what I met him met. So, well, when I got released, you need to come down here with me. You know what I'm saying?

Starting point is 00:28:05 Because you know what? My home life was unstable. My mother was on drugs. I didn't really have anywhere to go. So I went down and went out and went with him to sell drugs, and it was just a different level. I was already extremely violent and extremely aggressive because I was already robbing.

Starting point is 00:28:19 I had already been to youth home four five times. I'm already in a youth home fighting. I already knew that I already knew. And so what happens is in, I was from Oakland County. So it's Wayne County, which is Detroit. Then you have Oakland County, which is where Puniak is, right? So I met a lot of guys who were from Detroit in Oakland County

Starting point is 00:28:37 because when you cross eight mile, you've heard eight mile with the M&M. When you cross eight mile, you're in Oakland County. And so whatever you do, you're going to either the Oakland County Children's Village, which is a youth home where you're going to OCJ, Oakland County Jail. So I grew up in the youth home with guys who were from Detroit who had made the mistake of crossing Oakland County to do whatever crime they were doing, and they would send them to Oakland County. So I knew a bunch of guys from Detroit just by being locked up in placements

Starting point is 00:29:02 in the youth home. and stuff like that. So I came to Detroit to sell dope. And the guys who I came, the guys who I was with, my God brother and all of them, they wasn't just selling dope, because they were robbers too.

Starting point is 00:29:13 So I felt, I was already, I'm already... These are your people. Yeah, yeah. I'm right at home with this robbery shit. Right? Because they were robber too. They would sell your dope and then take your dope back from you.

Starting point is 00:29:25 So that's right at my alley. Sell them, sell them the drugs, then catch them and take the drugs back. Is this just just... other users or other drug dealers or drug crews where you find out. Yeah, so listen, dope fiends now, they were not, back then, a dope fiend would kill you. Right? It was not like it is now, but you can just kick him in the ass and just treat them like anything.

Starting point is 00:29:51 But this is the beginning of the crack era. This is 86, 87. Crack is new, right? So back then, the first crack addicts were ex-drug dealers. They were not pushovers. That's the biggest misconception when it comes to, when we see crack heads down, we think about Pookie from New Jack City.

Starting point is 00:30:11 Yeah, yeah. Nah, dude. Back then, the crack hits were the OGs. They were the neighborhood gangsters who were tweaking their nose and they didn't have a clue how addictive crack was. So the first wave of crack hits in the ghetto, They would kill your motherfucking ass.

Starting point is 00:30:28 They were not. They were gangsters who just get hooked on drugs. So no, we were robbing. There was nothing to robbing them. We would rob other drug dealers. We would set out, we would plan it out, scope it out. And then back then it was like drug crews, right? It's not like it is now where anybody can go sell drugs.

Starting point is 00:30:46 You can pull up in the neighborhood and sell drugs. No. Back then it was territories. And so you had to be a part of a crew. You just couldn't pull up in somebody's neighborhood in Detroit and starts hitting crack or heroin. you were going to die. You have to know what I'm saying?

Starting point is 00:30:59 Right now, you can just do whatever you want to do right now because it's just open season, right? You have the muscle. Back then, you couldn't just, you had to know somebody to sell drugs in a particular environment. If not, you're going to find yourself dead. Like these robberies, are you guys

Starting point is 00:31:16 just like busting in these houses or just kind of waiting for them to leave? There are these home invasions or? No, just so the whole thing is we would catch them out and about. sometimes so spot. So a spot was a house or a house. Yeah, we were rumping.

Starting point is 00:31:30 Yeah, we kicked that motherfucker in and then tear their ass up. Yeah, exactly. But the guys are forecoring and hustling back then, too. So it was like you had neighborhoods where you can pull up. The majority of the time, it was a spot. It wasn't like Chicago where it was an open-air market. The drug dealing was confined to houses in the city of Detroit. You had neighborhoods where you had strips.

Starting point is 00:31:52 But in Detroit, back then, 85, 86, 87, It was drug houses. It was drug. So whenever, if one drug crew was to get into it, another drug crew, the first thing we would do is burn your spot down. Burn your spot down would be, that would be, that was war. That's an active war. I was just thinking about, remember black label?

Starting point is 00:32:13 Yeah, it was the same thing. He's talking about like, this was your neighborhood. That was, you know, these five blocks or three blocks and these three blocks, they're talking about they're kidnapping people and all kinds of shit. Yeah. So when you look at. If you've ever been to Detroit, when you look at the decline of the neighborhoods, right? When you look at the effect of what, see, crack, the crack error is what destroyed the black neighborhoods in the city of Detroit.

Starting point is 00:32:40 Because, so we call it the drug war. The drug war is like, when you think about the white boy ricks and all that kind of shit. So there's a big misconception of the white boy Rick, right, the white boy in the black city. No, white boy Rick was a stumped down killer. this shit about white boy Rick being white boy Rick was protected by some of the most dangerous people in the city of Detroit he had a whole crew of killers that you couldn't touch him he was a plug he had access to shit so it wasn't just what you see in the movies and i don't get fuck with nobody tell you i was there i was in i moved to detroit where they're

Starting point is 00:33:15 trying to make him a sympathetic character no bro white boy Rick was a fucking killer bro right oh he's a white boy amongst all them black people all the niggas no white boy Rick would kill your ass and the people who were protecting him, he was protected. Brother, in 1986, Detroit had over a million people. The city was 70% black. A white boy could not exist in the city, Detroit selling keys. He wasn't selling ounces. He was selling kilograms.

Starting point is 00:33:43 There's no way you can exist, exist without getting robbed and they were trying to kill him. But he had a cruel people who were just as violent and just as vicious as the people who he was trying to kill him. You hear stories about people trying to kill him? Yeah, but he had a cruel motherfuckers who were extremely dangerous. Well, you know, it's Hollywood. You know, when they do the movie, they always...

Starting point is 00:34:05 Don't listen to that shit. White Boy Rick was dangerous as a motherfucker. I moved to Detroit before he got locked up. And I saw it. The neighborhood I was in, he was from the east side. The neighborhood I was in, we used to see him rolling with his crew. And the people who he rolled with were some of the most vicious motherfuckers

Starting point is 00:34:20 that would kill you versus look at you. They were protecting him. It wasn't just his father. No, he had a crew that was protecting him from other people because it was a plug. That's how it is. So what, I mean, does any of these interactions go bad? I mean, you've been shot a few times.

Starting point is 00:34:39 Yeah, fuck yeah, they went bad. People don't necessarily want to get shot, and then they're looking for it. I'm trying to stay chronological. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah, yeah, plenty of time, though. Yeah, because listen, you run there. Listen, when you're playing on that, when you're, so the robbery is the most. dangerous profession. I'm sure.

Starting point is 00:34:56 It is the most, I mean, it's more dangerous than selling drugs. Right. Because you are, you are presenting yourself in a way where you're trying to take something for somebody who don't necessarily want to give it to you. And then once you become known as a robber, you are a target. And then the drug dealers who have money,

Starting point is 00:35:14 they want to get rid of you because they're afraid of you catching them and robbing them or doing something worse to them, right? So yeah, I've been shot up with me. Yeah, I've been shut up about good four times. Oh, yeah, it was all about robbery. Every time I've been shot, it was the result of me trying to rob somebody. Yeah, I was locked up with multiple guys, and they said, you know, once their name, once everybody knew, like, as soon as they pulled up, everybody pulled out their feet and start shooting.

Starting point is 00:35:39 It's like, you know, taking off, I get shot in the fucking shoulder by a 22. It's like, I wouldn't even going to rob. I'm just stopping by somebody's house. No, it's nothing. That's, in the ghetto. Once you become the owner of the robber, it is what it is. when you talk about the robbers from the

Starting point is 00:35:55 Wild Wild West days, right? The police didn't once you became known as a person who's that vicious and they're not there's no hate free you stick them up

Starting point is 00:36:06 that is some Hollywood shit they're gonna gun your ass down there's no fucking constitutional right there's no region your fucking first Miranda rights no they're gonna because they know how violent and aggressive you are so what was one of the times

Starting point is 00:36:20 you got shot What was the first time you got shot? The first time I got shot, I was sticking the, I stuck up somebody outside of the gambling joint. They were outside of shooting dice outside of the gambling joint. I rolled up with my motherfuck and I had stove from somebody, right? And I jumped out there, they were outside the gambling joint. It was night.

Starting point is 00:36:38 I think it was like about 11, 12 o'clock at night. How old were you? I think that was 14. Okay. The first time I got shot was 14. This is before you moved? Yes, before I moved. I got a shot in Detroit once.

Starting point is 00:36:50 The other three, I got, the other three times they got shot was in puny yet. So you pull up, you tell these guys you're going to rob the guy? I didn't tell them anything. I just pulled up on the bike. I'm young. I look young. I'm riding the bike. Right.

Starting point is 00:37:03 So I pulled it up. They wasn't paying me no attention. They were gambling shooting dice and shit. They took the money drinking. It's like that. So I walked up and I just pulled a gun out. And you looked and saw me. Like, what the fuck?

Starting point is 00:37:14 You know what I'm saying? So I'm like, give me your money, right? So what you just said. Man, get the fuck. out of here, man, what the fuck is you? Get the fuck out of here. And this was a lesson that I learned it really saved my life moving forward because I got shot by somebody. I let them talk me to death. The biggest mistake you can make when you're robbing people and as a robber is to allow too much conversation to happen. Once you pull that gun out, there should be no

Starting point is 00:37:46 talking. There's no negotiation. That gun represents, that is my calling. card, right? But I was stupid young, and the guy stuck his hand in his pocket. I didn't know what he was doing. He shot me through his fucking jacket pocket, right? So that was a lesson. Where did you get shot? In the side. Do you take off running? Yeah, I took off to the chicken, hell yeah, I took off running. I didn't go to the hospital either. It went through and through. I didn't go to the hospital. I've had plenty of times where I never went to the hospital not one time. I've been shot four times.

Starting point is 00:38:20 I never went to the hospital once. Not once. What was the next one? The other time I had robbed somebody. And I think it was a carjacking. I had shook the car. And it was a drug dealer. I took his car.

Starting point is 00:38:35 And I drove off. I didn't drive off fast enough. They started shooting at the car. It was a Volkswagen, Jeddah. I never forget it. It was a silver Volkswagen jetta. Shot the back of the car up, the back windshield.

Starting point is 00:38:46 It was like a movie I'm trying to get away The back window Exploity hit me in the back of the head And I didn't realize that I was shot until I started to have shortness of breath The seat, the driver's seat had cracked the half And fell down on the back seat Right, they shot that motherfucker

Starting point is 00:39:04 real good How old were you then? I think I was 16 when that time happened You said you got shot in the face one time? Yeah, I got shot in the face right here. That shot in the face. Oh, okay. I can see, Alyssa.

Starting point is 00:39:19 You're barely even have a scar. Yeah, yeah, I'm 50. I'll be 54 next month. Gunshot, gun wounds, heels. You can see the scar down. Yeah. I got shot in the shoulder and the bullet came

Starting point is 00:39:30 went through my neck and it exploded out of my face. Yeah, I got shot right here. Yeah, went out home to come up. No, no hospital. No, no hospital. What do you do? Go home and just rub some,

Starting point is 00:39:43 my wife. You rub some fucking dirt in it. Right. Right. I got galls. I went to the store. I had a gall. I put a ball, put a book band-aid on it. You know what I'm saying? That's why I never healed up right because I never went to that. You don't see any stitches. I know, but it looks fine. It's just a discoloration. You put Vaseline on it and put a band-aid on it. That's what happened. True story.

Starting point is 00:40:06 Yeah. And that happens a lot. Even in prison, it happens when you get stabbed in prison or if something happens to you in prison, you can't go to the infirmary because you're acknowledging you've been. Yeah, yeah. You're going to be in the shoe and then get shipped. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:40:18 I was a state penitentiary, so it's the hole. Oh, okay. It's the hole. Yeah. I hear these guys talk about the fucking, the hole and everything. They're like, oh, they're this and this. And we didn't take a shower, and I was thinking, I mean, I was in the shoes.

Starting point is 00:40:32 We had a shower. My cell had a shower. What do you know? This is federal prison, though. No, the NBRC, in the Michigan Department of Corrections, I spent 17 years in that motherfucker. No, and I was in level four, level five, the majority of time.

Starting point is 00:40:43 But level four, level five is like a supermax, like an ADX. You know what I'm saying? You come out for one hour a day. In population, you come out for one hour a day. I was in level six, too. Michigan had a level six. They don't have it anymore because he ruled it unconstitutional.

Starting point is 00:40:57 And the shower was in your cell. It was called IMAX. You took a shower every three days They turned a wire on for six minutes So you had six minutes to get wet soap up And then rinse off And then you never came out of your cell I was in IMAX for 39 months

Starting point is 00:41:12 So So you're a teenager at this point What happens at how old are you When you at some point you swing by to see your mom You're driving through the area You were 16 Okay I was 16 Yeah 16 I'm good

Starting point is 00:41:29 Yeah yeah I'm glad I watched for glad. 16, 16 was a major year of me. Yeah, 16 was a major year or me. At that point, time, we're going back and forth from Detroit to Flint. So we had to go past Pungiak to get to Flint. I was selling dope in Flint.

Starting point is 00:41:41 Right? We said it mixed jiving. Gave me money to be able to buy a car and do. I wasn't thinking about school or college. It didn't cross my mind. You hear me? So I was leaving, I was leaving Detroit, going back up to Flint.

Starting point is 00:41:57 And I stopped by my mom's house to I was going back to Flint I was going back to Flint and I stopped by my mom's house to see check on her she was on drugs at that point in time

Starting point is 00:42:08 but she was functional you know what I'm saying he's functional I stopped by just give her some money it was on the north side of the point of the street called St. Clair

Starting point is 00:42:18 of Baldwin-Mondack area right where it is a mixed neighborhood and you have Hispanics white people black people I stopped by to see her I gave her a couple of hundred books the person, he's not my stepfather

Starting point is 00:42:30 by marriage, but I consider him my stepfather because she was with him. She was with him longer than anybody else after divorcing my father. I stopped by this year, I talked to her, talked to him. Mom is like 4'11. His name is Melvin.

Starting point is 00:42:45 Melvin's like 6.3, 6.4, 270, 280, minimum, right? He was a high school football and basketball star. And I was leaving. I went to a store across the street to get some juice, some snacks on my ride back up to Flint. And I came out to get in my car, the neighbor, the Hispanic guy, Mexican guy, who lived a couple of doors down.

Starting point is 00:43:11 He was standing outside. At my car, when I came out, it's a store called Big Daddy's on Baldwin and Kenneth Row. I came out. The store, he was standing by my car. And I had met him a couple times before when I stopped by a couple times before. And he was like, I need to talk to you. I'm like, about what? It was like

Starting point is 00:43:27 I tried to talk to your grandmother and I tried to talk to your brothers right and I told them that Melvin is beating your mom real bad he's beating her like beating her really really bad I told your grandmother and I told your brother and nobody's doing anything man he's going to fuck around kill her

Starting point is 00:43:46 that was all you need here that was it I literally I want to say I blacked out But I was I was I was like everything moves everything started moving slow motion You know what I'm saying? Because I'm a cancer So cancers are really like I'm a mama's boy You know what I'm saying? And despite the fact my mother we've had turmoil

Starting point is 00:44:06 That's still my mama I don't give up what kind of drugs she doing that's my mama You know what I'm saying? So he told me that It was like an out of body experience in terms of anger right that I was just so angry when he told me that I had a I had a I had a I had a I had a cote 45 with a nine-inch barrel six shots Jesus. I called it. It was only my stick-up tools. It was literally a cannon.

Starting point is 00:44:32 Yeah, it was literally a cannon. The barrel, the bullet was like this. Right? It was like this. Right. So you pulled a little leverage to say, and you spin it and put it, you know what I'm saying? So it was in my trunk because I kept in the trunk back then. I know you keep it in the trunk or you keep it in the compartment of the engine, right?

Starting point is 00:44:49 And he told me that. I'm like, what? He said, yeah, he'd been beating your mom and my ass. Been beating her real bad. Like beating her all in public. BetMGM casino and check out the newest exclusive. The Price is Right Fortune Pick. BetMGM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly.

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Starting point is 00:45:31 Thank you. I got the car, pulled back across the street, because it was right across the street, right? Pull back across the street. Got out of the car, popped the trunk, went and grabbed my gun. I walked up on the back porch, and there's a sliding glass,

Starting point is 00:45:44 sliding glass, what you call it, sliding gas door. Yeah. Like, you know, sliding glass door. I tried to open it. That's the only thing that's saving, because if I was, if I, he had it locked.

Starting point is 00:45:55 My mother was, the Mexican guy who told me, she was too, because I'm in the backyard. So she's two, if she's back down at the Mexican guy who told me what happened, I guess he told her he was going to the store to get a beer or something, but he can't tell me, right?

Starting point is 00:46:09 So I drove right across the street. She was back down. When I left, she had went back down to his house sitting back down, a couple doors down. Walked up on the back porch, the door, the slacking glass was locked. Couldn't get in it. So the slagging glass was like blinds,

Starting point is 00:46:26 but the blinds were open. There's a hallway, it's a bathroom right here to the right. There's a hallway There's another door. Beyond that door is the kitchen. That door was closed. So I tried to slide the glass door back.

Starting point is 00:46:38 It didn't slide. It was locked. So I started bamming on it, right? I'm mad as a motherfucker. My mother is down there. It hadn't registered to her what was going on yet. And he didn't tell her what he was coming to, but he came across the street to tell me.

Starting point is 00:46:53 So I was banging on the door. So he opened up the other door, which leads to the kitchen so he can see me. Right? So he's like, oh, what's going on? And he's like, because my nickname is Tom, because it's ton, because I was a 10-pound baby. Right? I was 10 pounds when I was born.

Starting point is 00:47:07 I was 10-pound four ounces when I was born. So he opened up the door and he saw me. And I was like, he was like, what's going on? Because I just, it was just all good. It just gave him some money, gave her, the money was all good, right? So he opened the door like, oh, what's going on? So I'm yelling and shit, like, bitch, you hit my motherfucker mama. So he really couldn't, you're like, what?

Starting point is 00:47:30 Well, he can see how I was I great. He can see your piss. Yeah. He could see how pissed off, right? So I'm like, open this motherfucker door. So he was like, what the fuck? Because he was confused. You know what I'm saying?

Starting point is 00:47:40 He probably was high too, because they both were getting high. So I rose the fucking gun up and I blew through the, I blew through the slatting glass. So it blew a hole through it, but it kind of like shatter. It didn't just bust all out. Right. So I blew through it. And when I blew through it, I can see him take off running.

Starting point is 00:47:58 So he ran out the front of the house. and ran down the street, so I chased this bitch ass down the street blowing at him. I only had six shots. I wasted one blowing through the glass to begin with, so I ran down the motherfucker.

Starting point is 00:48:10 You know what I'm saying? I only hit him one time, right? And the police is on me, don't forget this, but I'm in the predominantly white neighborhood that police was there. I didn't even deny the idea, though. When they got me,

Starting point is 00:48:21 I went to the youth home for it. I went to, I had a jury trial in juvenile. I wonder what the Mexican thought. Like, I wonder what he, he just told you this. Does he know you're on your way over there? He just said he told you. Like, look, I told your grandmother.

Starting point is 00:48:39 He was concerned about her. He was concerned about her. Yeah, I told the grandmother. I told your brother. Nobody's doing anything. I'm telling you, somebody's got to do something. Turn around, walk away. Next thing he hears, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam.

Starting point is 00:48:50 And he's Marvin running fucking. Yeah. He must have thought, holy shit. Yeah, he, he, he, my, I call him my stepfather. He would have been dead except for my mother tackled me. right she tackled me begging me not to kill him that's probably why she never told you anything to begin with because she knew yeah i've always been kind of like a little bit we call it touched in a right yeah the only reason why i didn't kill him is that because i had one more shot

Starting point is 00:49:17 and i'm young i had hawked his ass down i had him but then she ran out and tackled me and grabbed me and was begging me and crying not to do it they didn't start waving people as adults until 8889 I could have got off on that one other than a free kill and you went to trial I went to trial I think I find not guilty okay why

Starting point is 00:49:40 he didn't show up okay he said he was going to show up the trial started and I had an all-white jury I was in Oakland County Michigan Oakland County to this day it's probably the third or fourth Riches County in the country Oakland County Michigan right

Starting point is 00:49:52 and Ponyack is like the county seat Ponyak is like really the only urban city Ponyag and rural township are the only predominantly black cities in Oakland County, right? Oaken County is, is probably the second or third, which is county in the country still to this day. Right?

Starting point is 00:50:09 So growing up in Pony, you're surrounded by affluence. You're surrounded by the West Blunefields of Rochester Hills, the commerce townships. You're surrounded by affluence on all levels. So being from Ponyett, it makes you want more because on all sides of that city, you see nothing but wealth.

Starting point is 00:50:23 So what happened? Did she stay with him? Yes. She absolutely did. Yeah. Was he just continue to be a fucking douchebag? Is that? I think he was less prone to put his hands on her.

Starting point is 00:50:35 Oh, okay. All right? I got fined not guilty, but I still got sent to training school for that. It still locked me up because I ain't have nowhere to go because she was scared of me at that point. And don't forget, even though I was on my own, she still my guardian. I wasn't awarded the state. Yeah. She can't have you come back there.

Starting point is 00:50:50 No, I couldn't come back there. So they locked me up. I got fighting out guilty and still went to the training school for two years. Was it because you had a gun? No, I got a fine not guilty. They found me not guilty. They charged me with attempt murder. Okay.

Starting point is 00:51:06 But you got found not guilty? I got fined not guilty. How do you end up in the training school? What was a justification for that? I had nowhere to go. I had no, nobody would take me. Because my family was, I'm still, I'm still a juvenile. I'm 16, I'm still juvenile.

Starting point is 00:51:18 But you're out there's shooting people too. Yeah, so my whole family thought I was crazy at this point of time. Nobody wanted, nobody was really to take the risk of. Right. have me coming to their household. So I had nowhere to go. So because I had nowhere to go, I became a warded to the state.

Starting point is 00:51:31 You got your high school diploma? I got a GED training school. Yeah, WJ. Max. And you decided you got out, and that's when you said, yeah, I'm going to college, and I'm putting this life behind me. When I first came home,

Starting point is 00:51:45 I came home at 19 years old, I went to. I'm thinking this is not what happened. No, no. So listen, at this point in time, when I was in the training, school, I had a couple of staff members who knew, like, man, you're extremely intelligent. I used to watch Jeopardy.

Starting point is 00:52:01 I'm a Jeopardy, I'm a fan of Jeopardy, bro. I'm a Jeopardy champ. I used to sit, we used to watch Jeopardy in the training school, and I used to answer the questions before the contestants answered the questions. That's how good I would. And I started to read a lot inside the training school. And one of the staff members, he was just like, man, I, I've always been, I've always been relatively intelligent.

Starting point is 00:52:25 I've always been like a thinker. I've always been quiet. I've always been like a cerebral person. Despite all the crazy shit I got into, I was never like loud and boisterous and disrespectful and disrespectful. I would just, I would do shit and you'd like, I can't believe you did that. You know what I'm saying?

Starting point is 00:52:40 But it was like, I can't believe you did that, that, that type of shit, right? So one of the staff members should bring books in to me, brought the all the biography of Malcolm X in to me. He brought a book by Francis Crest Wellcing. I think it was the color complex. He brought books by Cornell West. He would bring me like black literature in. Right.

Starting point is 00:53:01 Right. And I would read it. And that's when I first decided. At that point in time, those were the first reading. It's kind of like what opened my mind. And then I understood that somebody had told me about if you want to hide something from a black person, you put it in the book. Black people don't read. Right?

Starting point is 00:53:25 And so I was offended by it, but I was motivated by that statement at the same time. You can be offended by something and be motivated by it at the same time. That's the absolute true. I was offended by like, man, so we're stupid like that? No what I'm saying? Like, fuck no, right? So even though I was getting in trouble and even though I was, even when I got out and I kept on doing shit, I still used to read. Right?

Starting point is 00:53:52 Because I don't like being. I didn't like being stupid, right? I didn't like not knowing shit. I've always been a cerebral person. So it was like, if we're having a conversation about what just happened between, let's just say, Maduro and Venezuela, right?

Starting point is 00:54:08 Right. In the youth home and in the training schools, I used to read popular science, national geographic, popular mechanics, popular science, popular mechanic, Jet Ebony, Ebony, man, shit like that, right?

Starting point is 00:54:20 And so, in essence, I realized that shit, bro, a lot of the shit that I was reading, in these magazines, I've never seen it before. The magazines, like the Ebony, you should talk about the essence festival and Montague Raw. I had never been anywhere before.

Starting point is 00:54:34 Yeah, yeah. There's a whole world out there. You don't know anything about. I discovered that whole world by reading, like literally. Like, I used to read the Ebony. And back then, the Ebony, what the Ebony and with the Jet Magazine represents the black culture was,

Starting point is 00:54:47 it showed us life. Even though we haven't, we didn't have an opportunity to experience ourselves. It showed us the best part of what black America, what it meant to be black looks like, right? I don't think people give the jet in Ebony and Essence magazine's enough credit because those, I mean, when you're from the hood, you're from the ghetto, bro, we don't see shit, we don't go anywhere. There's no, there's no Facebook, social media, no, none of it. There's, there's, what, three main channels and one local channel? You're right, yeah, NBC and CBS and ABC,

Starting point is 00:55:19 yeah, right? So, and then Fox came later, right? I'm old like, that's a Fox game later. right. So I had the opportunity I used to read a lot. So reading saves me. Reading gave me peace of mind. I would be, a staff member was bringing books in and he wasn't supposed to be doing that. You know what I'm saying? He saw something in me like, man, you have strong-willed, you're respectful.

Starting point is 00:55:40 When I was locked up, I didn't look like or sound like a person who had just, they used to read my file. Like, you just did. I was like a whole different person in person. Like, you just did this crazy-ass shit? Like, yeah. Like, I couldn't believe it because I, my demeanor, I was quiet. Right.

Starting point is 00:55:56 You know what I'm saying? So I used to read a lot. So he's like, yeah, reading the staff members said, hey, listen, man, you're going to gain your, you're going to gain your independence, right? You're going to learn how to be a man by reading. You're going to learn what it means to be. You're going to learn how to control yourself, is what he told me. His name was Mr. Chisholm was his name.

Starting point is 00:56:15 The name was Ron Chisholm, was the person who brought those books in for me. Like, you're going to learn, you're going to learn because you're going to learn how to be a man. You're going to learn what it means. to live life by reading. So he brought me magazines in, brought me books in. I think the book that kind of like changed my entire,

Starting point is 00:56:30 I think it was the all biography of Malcolm X to what changed me. It kind of like opened up my mind. Right? Because it really talked about the condition of black people and how we got to be where we were. The all over,

Starting point is 00:56:42 the autobiography of Malcolm X is a book that really kind of like, it did, it inspired me the most. And I read Marcus Garvey. Marcus Garvey inspired me too. And I read Miseducation of Negro. That changed me as well.

Starting point is 00:56:57 So I understood that, for the most part, black people, and I understood this at 16, 17 years old, we're where we are right now because we've been conditioned to be that way. And even though we have been conditioned to be, everything things have been taken from us, we take from ourselves too. So at that time, I started to understand that I didn't say it, But I understood that even though when you look at everything that has happened to black people in America,

Starting point is 00:57:29 black Americans, slavery and Jim Crow and all that, right? I don't discount it because it happened and it had an impact on us. But very early on, I said to myself, if we know all these things happen, what the fuck are we going to do about it? Why does it keep happening? Yeah, we know about it because right now, to me, it looks like that we're our own biggest enemies, Even though there are still outside factors that you had to take consideration. But right now, we're our own biggest enemy.

Starting point is 00:58:00 I discovered that, and I came to that realization at 16, 17 years old. And so that was like, even though I still got in trouble after that, I went to prison and all that shit after that, I went to prison kicking myself and asked I was in college when I caught that case. I didn't even do this shit I went to prison for it. That is the crazy part. I was in the crew of people who were robbing, but for the robbery I went to prison for, I wasn't even there.

Starting point is 00:58:24 I just didn't tell. It's for the guy. What was, when was that? It happened in 1990. The robbery happened in 92. How old were you? At the top 20. 20?

Starting point is 00:58:37 20. 20. I was 20. So you got out of, you got out of juvie at what? At 19. Yes. I went to prison for 17 years at 20. I got 21.

Starting point is 00:58:48 Within, so within a, within a year. year and a half. You're tied up in this. I came home from training school. I got married. I was married and everything. You know what I'm saying? I was in college.

Starting point is 00:58:59 I was in Oakland University. And I was kind of like halfway in and halfway out. And I was going to, this is another thing that people don't know. I had signed up for the Navy. I took the ASVAB and everything, brother. I scored an 88 on the ASVAB. I still have the proof that I scored at 88. The people who I went at that point in time,

Starting point is 00:59:20 Because my older brother who was raised down south, he went to the Navy. So in between me getting in trouble, he was like, man, you ain't got an adult record yet, bro. At that at that point in time, I believed, I was under the impression that your juvenile record didn't count against you in terms of going to the military. Right. Right. So, but it did. It does. Oh.

Starting point is 00:59:36 Fuck, yeah. Because I had all high-level mist. I had attempt murders. Right. Armed robberies. You don't know what I was all violent and assault or shit, right? So I've never said this on any platform before ever. I took the test in

Starting point is 00:59:52 October of 1992. I took the ASVAB. I took the physical, everything. I went downtown Detroit. I scored the 88. The next highest person, the next score, the next highest score was like a 40.

Starting point is 01:00:05 I had the 88. And at that point in time, the highest enlisted person in the Navy in the country was a black person. And he was over the recruiting department in Detroit. So when my score came back,

Starting point is 01:00:17 he was like, She, you fucking, swear your ass in right now. Yeah. They ran the background check. I didn't have a dark record. I had the juvenile record. Attempt murder, blah, blah, blah, blah. And even though I got to find out guilty of the thing of my stepfather,

Starting point is 01:00:29 it was still a part of my file. Right. So he said, you need to go, you need to go get an expungement. Don't get your juvenile record expunged. I had a court date for November, November 18th, 1992. I had a court date to get my juvenile record expunged. I had talked to my judge, my magistrate, the person who was my judge,

Starting point is 01:00:51 her name was Jessica Cooper. Right now she was the magistrate in Juvenile Division. Right now she's the chief judge for Oakland County Circuit Court right now. Right. She was my magistrate back then. So I had,

Starting point is 01:01:07 I went to the courthouse myself. I went to her clerk's chambers and I talked to, I told the clerk what's going on, I'm trying to go into the Navy trying to get out of that. She, because she had majority of my cases as juvenile, right? So I talked to the clerk.

Starting point is 01:01:21 The clerk gave me a hearing for November 18th of 1992. I had signed up for a two-and-two program. They had a two-year active duty in two years reserves. Okay. Right? I was in college. I was going to go in there, let me finish my, you know, GI Bill, let's finish paying for my college.

Starting point is 01:01:44 I don't have no college debt, get all the insurance and all that kind of shit and I was not going to come I was my brother said go go overseas because my brother spent he spent 23 years in Navy

Starting point is 01:01:55 he spent most of his time in Italy and Japan for say go overseas just live life just whatever just get the fuck out of there right so I was going to sign up to go I didn't want to be in the States

Starting point is 01:02:07 I was going to race training I was going to go overseas right that was November I had a court date for November 18th 1992 I got locked up November 7th, 1992. If I could have made it 11 days

Starting point is 01:02:20 Could have got the espungement And I didn't be gone What was the robbery? Carjacking. We had a carjacking ring. We were carjacked foreign cars Taking to a chop shop. You say like everybody has one.

Starting point is 01:02:34 Didn't you have one? No, I did not have one. Yeah, carjacking. Yeah, carjacking. You snatched your ass at the motherfucking foreign cars and take them to the chop shop And then it was what it was.

Starting point is 01:02:43 And so these other guys did a carjacking and what you're saying you got. I was carjacking too. Well, right. But the one carjacking. So what happened? So they got grabbed and they just grabbed the whole crew. Was there a task force or something? Like how did your name?

Starting point is 01:02:57 Yeah, because the chop shop. So it was the chop shop. So it was the chop shop. Yeah, it's not a minor. This is not a minor thing. This is not a couple of kids doing it. No, no. We were taking the cars like a chop shop.

Starting point is 01:03:08 Yeah. Before we get into how it went wrong, like, yeah, how does this whole process work? Are you guys just, oh, we're in the wealthy part? of town. We're looking for these dudes and we're just snatching them out of the car or. Oh, no, dealerships. We go to the dealerships. We go to dealerships.

Starting point is 01:03:21 I'll put the button down shirt on. Go to the dealerships. I have a pistol on me. And we go for a test drive. And doing a test drive, right? Hey, pull over his fish back. We pull those feet back. Get your bitch ass out.

Starting point is 01:03:36 Right. Take the car home and stuff to sunset. So I was going to say, so you take it to the, chop shop. Is this like cars for order? or any car they would order them. Because back then it was like Oeddy, like an Audi.

Starting point is 01:03:48 Back then it was like all these BMWs. It was a Mississippi's they had the Mississippi's I forget the high level of Mississippi Sedan it was Akra Legends

Starting point is 01:03:59 back then Akers were really hot back then Accurys were really hot back then. And so you run it to the chop shop are you ever being chased to the chop shop? No, no, no. There's a couple times

Starting point is 01:04:12 we snapped people out of the cars in the hood. you know what I'm saying but for the most part we would go to the dealerships you know what I'm saying do the test ride you drop in the salesman off in the when they usually pull over they pull over into like an area like here it's quiet over here let's pull over like right like this like an

Starting point is 01:04:26 industrial yeah you slowly walk around the car if you don't notice the such and such yeah that's a perfect place to say take all get the fuck out yeah you hop in and leave so he he has no cell phone there's back then the cell phones were this big back in the 90s in the 90s and they're yeah he'll flip but nobody had a cell phone point and let's say like a

Starting point is 01:04:42 $50,000 car how much do you you get it from how much do you get for it from from a chop shop? 2500 yeah yeah plus you're in the two you're in the chop shop probably within five minutes way before the cops are even looking for the car yeah yeah before they did you want to have all these technologies you had take those cars were technology dollars to get vans but you didn't have all the tracking mechanisms that you had now right and so they they eventually come in and grab you and everybody else no they grabbed them motherfuckers first right then came get me one of the guys who was in our crew he was picked up for something

Starting point is 01:05:14 else and the because it was a crew of us going around. Right. All in the suburbs, you know what I'm saying? We're all going around taking cars. It was crew of us.

Starting point is 01:05:22 They picked the motherfucker name is Bruce Earl Williams. That's his name. I'm thinking that Bruce, did he mention your name? Yeah, listen.

Starting point is 01:05:34 Listen. Did he say I need a piece of paper and a pen? Let me write. In order of operations. Yeah, bitch that's that nigga name Bruce.

Starting point is 01:05:42 We call him Bruce. He called him Bruce. too. His nickname was bus stop. He told he got caught up for the, he got caught. And him getting caught led to everybody else getting caught. They knew him. They didn't know us. They didn't know who we were. He told our, because we had all been in the training school together, so he knew our real names. So he told on me and my, and my, he's not my Cody, but yeah, I guess he called, he told everybody. He told him everything. Did you, did you go to trial? Did you feel? Oh, no. No, no. You know, Oakland County, Michigan? Going to trial,

Starting point is 01:06:13 in Oakland County, Michigan, if you black and you've stuck some white people up, boy, your ass. No, Oakland County, Michigan had the highest conviction rate out of any county in the country for over two decades running because they would, if you black, so listen, just how it is. So you got, this is, this is like a history lesson for you. So Detroit's mayor is like Coleman Young. You ever heard of Coleman Young? Coleman Young was the mayor when white boy Rick. Oh, yeah.

Starting point is 01:06:40 Yeah, yeah. Coleman Young was a certified gangster by the mayor. Right. Right. He's the most legendary political figure in the history of Detroit. It still swear by him to this day. Right. He was, when all the gangsters that you hear about, when being metph was formed,

Starting point is 01:06:55 yeah. Coma Young was mayor. He plays the, he plays the lieutenant in, uh, come on, Beverly Hills cop, right? That was the commissioner. Oh, that was commissioner. Oh, okay. He was under Coma Young. That was, that was the police commissioner.

Starting point is 01:07:12 Right. Axifoli, blah, blah, blah. That was a police guy. That was really him, too. Right. Corrupt is a son bitch, right? They sold more dope than the drug just did. Right?

Starting point is 01:07:21 Back then, it was just like everything was for sale back then. Everything was for sale back then. But the motherfucker told on everybody, told on me. They didn't know where I stayed at, right? What happened was my guy brother brought him because I would go off and I wouldn't, we had a crew. And me and my godbrother, we ran the crew. So I was in college and doing other shit that even my guy brother didn't know about.

Starting point is 01:07:43 So when things were happening, I'm like, man, when I moved, I moved from the West of the Detroit to the East of Detroit. The only person who knew where I stayed at was my godbrother, my godmother. Nobody else in our crew knew where I laid my head at, right? So one day, I didn't answer, I didn't, I wouldn't answer on the phone, picking up the phone. So my god brother came in my house, we had Bruce in the car with him. That's how Brooks knew where I stayed.

Starting point is 01:08:07 That's how he knew where I stayed at. And then, even then, because he wasn't from the east area from the west of Detroit. Right. He wasn't familiar with the area. He knew it street. but he couldn't tell him what block or what house. So what they did was they went and they pulled the mail. And they went to pull my last name.

Starting point is 01:08:21 Anything they knew they wouldn't pull the mail from the entire block and found Austin. And that's how they knew what house I stayed in. So task force, they grabbed everybody. How'd they come grab you? Nice. Knocked on the door. Just really, but nice.

Starting point is 01:08:36 And we have an issue. I was laying down. I was, even though I was on some, I'm not going to say I'm totally innocent. Clearly. Right. I was totally innocent, but this shit I did not do.

Starting point is 01:08:49 This one I didn't do. But you paid for the stuff, even the stuff you didn't do. It was knocking the door. It was like 11.30, I wasn't to be asleep. I had to go to class the next morning, right? I was in it,

Starting point is 01:09:02 and I heard a knock on the door. My wife went to the door, and then he was like, who is? Like, it was police, right? Oak County Sheriff. Because it happened to Oakland County. Oh, County, Sherrod, what the fuck I didn't do?

Starting point is 01:09:14 What's, what? Right? So I'm listening to him, so I was going to go hide. You know what I? I'm anti-turned myself in. Just so what I'm saying page. Like, if I, if there's ever an occasion where I had getting trouble again, I've never turned myself in.

Starting point is 01:09:31 No. I used to kill me when these guys would show up. They turned themselves. For eight years, 12 years, like, you just, are you telling me that an hour and a half ago you were outside? Like, you still smell like fucking Burger King. Right. You know what I'm saying?

Starting point is 01:09:42 And they're like, yeah, I was eating it. I ate at Pernara this morning. Right. No, no, I've never turned myself in and you got eight years. Get your job. Listen, listen, listen, listen, I pray that I hope to God, I didn't forget your question. I hope you, I'm never turning myself in. I hope they don't see this and use this against me if something ever happens.

Starting point is 01:10:01 No, you get to the job. Mother fuck, I'm never turning. Turn myself in. That's never going to happen. Right? So they came, they're knocking the door. My wife went to the door. It announced who they were.

Starting point is 01:10:11 And so in the house I was living in the Indian It was that this house was from the 1800s So there in the attic there is There is like You would think it's a chimney stack but it's not It's not the chimney The chimney, the actual chimney stack is enclosed and drywall But this looks like a chimney stack

Starting point is 01:10:29 You can and you I don't know who had it I know some prohibition shit But you can take the whole fucking shit The whole it's like a secret Door but it's all You can slide it and get in there and slide it back.

Starting point is 01:10:44 Because like a handle on the inside. Right. It had to be some mobster's house back in the day. So he said out of Detroit, right? So I was going to do that, but they were going to come in that house and tear that motherfucker up and my stepkids were in the house, right?

Starting point is 01:10:57 And I didn't want them to have to go. I didn't want them rumbling through all that kind of shit. So I just came down and gave myself up, right? And that was all she wrote. Would you, I mean, they give you a lawyer. Oh, I had a lawyer. What's your lawyer saying? They're charging armed robbery,

Starting point is 01:11:13 largely from a person, and weapons charge. The lawyer, the lawyer, like, you're your ass is grass. Right. My lawyer's name is his name is William, Zim, William Zim. You ass is grass.

Starting point is 01:11:25 Because they, let's see, so Oakland County, Oakland County is worse than the feds. Used to be. Oakland County, you can do your research. It had the highest conviction rate of any county in the country.

Starting point is 01:11:37 Oh, and Oakland County was second, third, richest county in the entire. your country. If you're black and you catch the case in Oakland County, let's do the contrast. Let's just say you're still the car in Detroit. On the other side of the mile, you're still in Wayne County.

Starting point is 01:11:51 To the car. Probation. Ogden County, you still the car? Five to ten. Let's say you get caught with a gun in Wayne County. Depending on your prior criminal history, get caught

Starting point is 01:12:07 to two to four, some shit like that, right? Oakland County, five years, right? You stick somebody up because Oakland County is really like a white flight county. White people left Detroit after the riots in 1967. They moved to cross eight mile. And so the law, the laws and law enforcement, they are dead set on making show your black ass. Don't cross that motherfucking eight mile trying to steal from rich white people.

Starting point is 01:12:38 So they teach you a lesson. You don't do it again for five years. Listen, you rob a motherfucker in Detroit. I get three or 20. You robbed somebody in Oakon County? 20 to 40. They don't play that shit. They're going to sentence you.

Starting point is 01:12:54 That's why I brought up Coma Young earlier. It wasn't even about the white boy rich shit. So there was a battle between El Brooks Patterson, who was the county commissioner. And Combe Young, who was the mayor of Detroit, it was colossal battles. Colossal. It was white versus black.

Starting point is 01:13:08 Oton County versus Wayne County. The two titans, The Titan of Wayne County was Detroit's mayor, Cohen Young, and the Titan of Oakon County was El Brooks Patterson. El Brooks Patterson was one of the most racist, bigoted motherfuckers he ever wanted to meet in your life. If you were black and you crossed, listen, it was a known thing. You crossed over eight miles, your ass grass.

Starting point is 01:13:30 We'll see you when you get, if you are 23, we'll see you when you get 37. They would sentence you harsher if you were Detroit. Detroit resident, they would sentence you three to five times what the guidelines were. And that whole thing was done to discourage the niggas from coming there. They called Detroit nigger time. Right. From coming crossing over eight miles.

Starting point is 01:13:56 And we know that. Everybody from Detroit knows don't take your ass across eight miles. You ain't got no insurance. You ain't got no license. Your car looks sketchy. Right? Don't do it. If you could be in their foreign car once you cross over eight mile turn your music down and make sure your windows not tinted

Starting point is 01:14:17 They're gonna pull you over driving while black is a real thing across eight mile It will pull your ass over and look for something we had the guy remember the He was open the the cannabis places where they were selling that was the whole thing he said so he he went over Because in Detroit he could open up a place and that was his whole thing he said I we said I couldn't do it here He said because they kept shutting him down So he said, we just drove over, over eight mile. He said they didn't bother us at all. It was here that they were.

Starting point is 01:14:48 Yeah, Detroit is open for business. It's going to cannabis. Growing, sailing is open air. This is legal. Michigan is legal period. But they have some counties they try to discourage because they don't want to much of them. Yeah, this was like when it first happened where they said it's legal. He said, it didn't matter.

Starting point is 01:15:05 It was legal. And I would open up a place. He said they'd shut it down. Open up a place, shut it down. So that's when he went over eight mile. He said, and they didn't bother them there. Yeah, absolutely. I think, right?

Starting point is 01:15:13 Is that where they weren't bothering them or they weren't shutting them down there too? No. Or they'd get away with it for longer. On Detroit side of eight mile? Yeah. Eight miles is the northern border in Detroit, right? And so it's two counties that border eight mile, that border Detroit. On eight miles, you have McCone County and you have Oakon County.

Starting point is 01:15:29 Those are the two counties that border. Eight miles is the northern line, is a northern line of Detroit. Across eight miles, you have Oakon County, and then you have McCone County on the, on the, on the, on the east side of eight mile, you have McCone County. On the west side of eight mile, you have Oakon County. Both of those counties will tear your ass up.

Starting point is 01:15:51 They will send your ass to prison for very long, long time. So what was your offer? What were they offering you? Shit. The first offer was 20 to 40, with a couple of the enhancement for the guns. So what happens was, Oakland County will overcharge you.

Starting point is 01:16:07 for any crime that looks like or smells like or tastes like the crime you committed let's see you got an robbery every unself armed robbery with a motherfucker who you could be six too the suspect for that

Starting point is 01:16:22 armed robbery could be five foot eight that's your armed robbery they would overcharge you you know you're not going to get a jury of your peers Oakon County is predominantly white predominantly white every city in Oakland County is predominantly white except two just imagine that entire

Starting point is 01:16:36 County. That is Ponyak and rural Oak Township. The rest of that ship, when I say white, I mean white, white. When I say affluent, I mean very affluent. Not trailer park white. No, not. No, no.

Starting point is 01:16:50 No, kid rock and the M&Ms, they stay in Oakland County. You have West Bloomfield, Rochester, you have a lot of, I think the capital capital income in Oakland County as a total got to be medium income, got to be close to 100 grand. Period. You know what I'm saying?

Starting point is 01:17:06 And in Ponyak, when you step for the outside of Pune, North of Ponyk, you have Arbor Hills where there are Pistons you used to play at, Arbor Hills, Michigan. And then east of Ponyak, you have motherfucking, you have Rochester, you have Claussen, you have West Bloomfield. No, it's all bad. Your ass, you have Novi. It's all bad.

Starting point is 01:17:33 Sylvan Lake, your ass going to jail. You're going to jail for nothing. You're going to jail, period, simple as that. In your case. They offered me. You ever did something. When I got to the county jail, I think you charged me like seven to eight armed robberies. Shit that we had no knowledge of, didn't, wasn't it, but they would overcharge you and force you to take a cop.

Starting point is 01:17:55 Right. Yeah. So, Oakland County had the highest conviction rate because, not because of trial, but because of you would cop out. You know you have to cop out. Because if you don't, if you take it to trial, you know how to feds, you take it to trial, you go ahead and get. Yeah, yeah, you're getting a 50 years. Yeah, you're better off taking the six or 10 that they're offering you,

Starting point is 01:18:13 even though you might feel like I don't think I deserve that or I'm not guilty of that. Yeah, but if you go to trial, you lose, you're getting 50. So listen, people from Detroit, from the metropolitan Detroit area, to this day, it's still the same thing. You don't play with them white folk. You don't play with them crackers. I'm just going to be real. You don't play with them crackers.

Starting point is 01:18:31 You catch an armed robbery or some shit? Mm-hmm. If they offer you a 10 to 20, you know you got to like, you know you got to be going to start. You might start crying because I know I'm not. I know I'm not guilty to chef. Know how you be playing the evidence game? I know they don't have. I know they I need no footprints.

Starting point is 01:18:55 I know they don't got no DNA. Yeah, but if you go to trial and you lose, Oakland County will humble you. It's like it's worse than offense. It will hump if you go to trial and you lose, we'll see you in another lifetime. Not this one, another one. So I have a quick question. When you say, you know, 10 to 20, what is the 10? So unlike the feds, so you have a minimum sentence.

Starting point is 01:19:21 Right. So the feds you give you one sentence in months. You get 36 months, 120 months, 360 months, blah, blah, blah, right? In Michigan, you get a minimum sentence, you get a tail. Is there a guidelines? So let's just say, let's say if I get it on robbery, they'll give me 10 to 20. The 10 would be my minimum.

Starting point is 01:19:39 Right. So you could get out in 10. You could. Once you do 10 years, you start seeing a parole board. Oh, okay. They don't have to let you out. Yeah. So there's a minimum.

Starting point is 01:19:48 So what happens is once you get to your minimum, so it used to be you say 85% of your, like I said, they'll give you on robbery, me, 10 to 20, right? You start seeing a parole board after about eight and a half years, at 85% of your sentence, you'll start to see the parole board. The parole board don't have to let you go. They can flop you. They can hold you up to 20 years if they want to.

Starting point is 01:20:12 So like me, I went to prison and I did, I got flop six times. It called it a flat. A flop is a continuation. You go see the parole board. You sit up like this. You ever seen Shawshake Redemption? Of course. Same thing.

Starting point is 01:20:31 You go in there. It's like to fade, but you just go, let's you ask. No, Shawshake, you go on there? I still don't know how I got it. I got a pro. Because I was in there stabbing people, robbing people in prison. I don't, I do not know how I got a pro. I was shocked, right?

Starting point is 01:20:44 I told, stop playing with me, man. I'm playing with me, man. But he told me how to parole, I was fucking shocked. Yeah, so you get a 10 and 20. So you start seeing a parole board, and then they had something called truth and sentencing as well. So when I was in prison, you would do 85% of your time before you start, before you see a parole board. Pro board doesn't do anything.

Starting point is 01:21:00 They don't have to let you go. Right? You got a 10 or 20. You start seeing a parole board at about eight and a half years. They can hold you up to you up to you up to you up to you. 20 years. Now most of the time they don't hold you, your behavior will dictate, generally speaking. Sometimes it can be the crime though. Sometimes the parole board hold grudge against your ass. Or let's just say something happened to you. Let's just say if I broke in your house,

Starting point is 01:21:21 I scared your wife to death. I go to the prison, right? You can come to the parole board here and say, hey, this son a bitch scared my wife. My wife still having anxiety. Right? This son's a bitch, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the whiter you are is the worst it is for me. Hey, I'm so-and-so. I this business, blah, blah, blah, this son of a bitch, you know what I'm saying? Right? Oh, listen, that's a person. That's a worst nightmare is to have somebody to come to your parole hearing. The victim?

Starting point is 01:21:48 Oh. Oh, my wife, my wife, my wife died of broken heart because this son bitch terrorized us. And, you know, I didn't kill her, but she never couldn't recover. She died of melancholy because he robbed us and she, oh, your ass, you're going to do. you're going to do that 20. What did you take? Did you take a 10 to 20? Yeah, I took a 13 to 20.

Starting point is 01:22:13 13 to 20. Yeah, I took a 13 and 20. You did 17? How much did you do? 17 years flat. Oh, my God. There's 17 years flat. But see, the whole thing is,

Starting point is 01:22:25 when I went to prison, there was beef on the floor. It was beef, so it was a lot of beef. So there was a war going on inside the MDOC, the Michigan Department of the Crickson, I went to prison. There was a war going on. So you have a lot of the drug crews

Starting point is 01:22:39 that get knocked in 89, 90, 91, 92. I went to prison in 92. So it was a war going on inside the NDOC. The NDOC wasn't gang related. It was crews. You know what I'm saying? You had east side versus west side. Then you have a lot of city beef.

Starting point is 01:22:56 You know what I'm saying? You have Flint, Flint, Michigan against Saginaw. And Saginaw against Plinyag. And Detroit against everybody and shit like that. But does I have anything to do with you? Like, fuck yeah. Oh, okay. You haven't mentioned anything about that. Yeah, well, let me mention it to you right now. Right. Right. I was robbing in that motherfucker. So listen, I was robbing.

Starting point is 01:23:15 I was, the robbery didn't stop when I went to prison. I was robbing and beat motherfuckers ass and taking their store. The prisoner store. Right. You, you feel this, you, you, you just your stone list, let me, I will fill your store list out for you, right? And I will give you what I want you to have. Right? We go, so it's $15 a week. I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm order $50 and you go get $25. That's how they go. So it was extortion, robbery, and just beat motherfuckers' ass.

Starting point is 01:23:44 You know how, did they have tapes when you were in prison? Like tapes, because they had tapes? Or they had MP3s. Right. So when I was in prison, they had cassette tapes. When I was leaving, they started to get the MP3 players. Well, cassette tapes, like a little like cassette, right? You could have like boxes.

Starting point is 01:23:58 They'd be like 30, right? And all the newest stuff. Right? I, you know what I'm saying? And so I'll take your tape box. If I would relieve you of the shit that I didn't think you were supposed to have, take it. Take the shit from you, right?

Starting point is 01:24:16 If I liked you, you could keep some of this shit if I didn't. You know what I'm saying? I wasn't supposed to be doing that shit. No. No, I wasn't. No, I was a member of the Nation Islam. Oh, okay. And the Nation of Islam, we're not supposed to be engaged in any of that shit.

Starting point is 01:24:28 All right. But I used to get suspended from this Nation of Islam. I'm like, Malcolm Mexican. I used to get suspended. They were suspended. They were suspended, 30 days suspension, 90 days suspension, 60 day suspension. I've been suspended because you're not supposed to be doing that, brother. Right.

Starting point is 01:24:43 Right. But the whole thing is like, listen, if I'm hungry, I'm robbing. Simple as that. You know what I'm robin. I'm taking that shit. If you got some dope and you selling dope, I'm going to take your dope. Doesn't any of this ever come? Like how much are the other, for how long do the, for how long do the,

Starting point is 01:25:04 other inmates put up with this before they they retaliate in some way. No, it's not a matter of how long. It's about who. Some people just ain't going for it. Yeah. But I was in the nation, so religions in the NVOC, they used to run the show. Right. Religions used to run the show. So now it's gang orientated. You have crips and bloods, even in Michigan. You would think Michigan was California now, right? But back when I was there, you had GDs and Vicer's who were from Chicago, and you had a couple of gangs out of southwest Detroit, but for the most part, it was like drug crews. Michigan wasn't like a heavy GD, vice lord,

Starting point is 01:25:40 Crip Blood state. It is now. Back then it was just like, Cruz. What side of town are you from? What neighborhood you're from? It was neighborhood crews and drug crews. Because the crews, even when you get locked up, you still claiming your crew.

Starting point is 01:25:54 Yeah, the feds are the cars. Like you're the Tampa car, you're in the, whatever, the Atlanta car. Yeah, the blood car, Crypt, Pyru car. GD car type shit It could be state You could be all that kind of shit It could be just south car

Starting point is 01:26:06 I shit like that big Mitch was in the South car because he's from Atlanta He wasn't in the Midwest car He was in the South car So that's That don't get me started right So what happened was

Starting point is 01:26:17 Is that um It was just a matter I was a I was a It's just I'm a bully You know what I'm saying It's just what it was If you got something It's horrible

Starting point is 01:26:25 Yeah I'm sorry Sorry to offend your sensibilities Brother Yeah if you have something And it wasn't about no, it wasn't about black or white. It was about if you have something that I want, I'm going to take that shit, brook you. That's just the way it was.

Starting point is 01:26:38 You know what I'm saying? The way it was. And then, so that leads to problems because everybody's not going for that shit. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? You might think somebody is quiet and introvert, but that motherfucker might be a fucking serial killer. You know what I'm saying?

Starting point is 01:26:51 And then you, so today I might wake up and do something to you today. Tomorrow you might wake up and say, you know what? The next motherfucker tried this shit, I'm going to stab them in the ARI. I'm going to pick them up and throw them over the fucking gallery and watch them fall and break the fucking neck and die on the gallery. Or I'm going to run up in the cell. I'm going to take some bowling.

Starting point is 01:27:12 Bowling is like bowl cleaner. I'm going to mix piss with bowl cleaner. And I'm going to throw it on you and light you on fire. Because back then you could smoke and shit, you know what I'm saying? So you could take toilet bowl cleaner and mix it with a little piss, you know what I'm saying? And throw it on somebody and strike a match and burn the ass up. It's like an acid type thing. All right, so I saw it all.

Starting point is 01:27:32 I've done it all. Yeah, you mentioned on, on Vlad, you mentioned how one guy had, I forget, there was a dispute and the guy just threatened him. He said, oh, I'm going to, I'm going to you. And he walked off, and then the next day, like the guy, one guy had probably forgot about the next day, he's just standing there. And the guy ran up and stabbed him. Yeah, that happens all the time. I mean, because I was in the worst prisons that the Michigan Department had the direction had. I was in Jackson, South Yard.

Starting point is 01:28:00 I was in Marquette Level 5. I was at MR. MR. MR is Gladiator School. Gladiator School is when you have 10 years or more, you're 26 or younger. So it's called Michigan Reformatory or MR or Gladiator School. Just imagine you have 1,500 prisoners who are under 26 years old, who all have 10 years or more to do. And if you don't have 10 years or more,

Starting point is 01:28:29 because I get back on appeal, I'm going to get my control sentence back, right? But I still had to, I was getting flop because I was doing crazy shit. You know what I was in that bitch robbing and I call it a dope case in prison, all kind of shit, you know what I'm saying? So what happens is,

Starting point is 01:28:44 you admit, you in Michigan Reformatory is 26 and younger, 10 years or more. The average person had a sentence of maybe 20 years on average. There's no hope. There's none of that shit. And then the prison guards isn't, I own your Michigan.

Starting point is 01:29:02 I own you. Some of the most racist white people. Listen, so little known fact, Michigan has some of the most racist white people in the country. You don't got to go to Mississippi or Arkansas or Alabama to see racism. Oh, that's up north of you. No, no, no, no, no. Listen, Michigan has two peninsulas, the upper peninsula and lower peninsula. the white people who live in the northern part of the lower peninsula and all of them who live in the upper peninsula up in the it called the UP right

Starting point is 01:29:37 they're not fans not fans well listen listen so the upper peninsula the lower the lower part of the lower peninsula of michigan and the upper peninsula That is ore and iron country. What happened when this country started to import sheep, iron and steel, and ore from China? And put them out of business. So the most, listen, it is like Appalachian Mountain Poor up there. White people, hills have eyes. Interrace.

Starting point is 01:30:18 The uncle is the cousin, is the nephew, is the brother. Like that there. That's right. eight black people. That's my sister and my niece and my cousin and there's only one woman standing there. Yes, listen, listen, the prison guards, the best thing that happened to a prison guard in northern lower peninsula and the upper peninsula, the best thing that can happen to them is when they put prisons up there and they gave them a job.

Starting point is 01:30:42 You can make $40,000 a year and get health care insurance, right? You know when the CO is new because they have no teeth. They have maybe one or two teeth in their mouth. And then after a year they got their good insurance They got a whole fucking bright smile Listen, they hate niggas But they need niggas Because without those fucking prisons in the Upper Peninsula

Starting point is 01:31:04 There's no economy There's zero economy You think Detroit is bad There are no car plants up there There's nothing. There's no industry There's no nothing up there They need prisons The prisons is what saved them

Starting point is 01:31:17 So they despise black people Because they know without this, we don't have anything, but they know they need it at the same time. They are the most, they will kill you. Talk about that, listen, I've seen, the prison guards will kill you in Michigan. They will kill you without thinking twice about it.

Starting point is 01:31:35 How did you get, how did you get another case in prison? Silly, got caught. But just, I mean, just once? Or I mean, like, usually they have to put, like, usually it has to be. be a significant amount or they have to put something together. You get caught with, I get caught.

Starting point is 01:31:55 I think about half an ounce. And then two to four for that. Two to four years sentence for weed. Yeah. So my tail went from 20 years or 24 years because they added the tail onto my, you know what saying? Yeah, two to four. Now you get caught with some dope in Michigan.

Starting point is 01:32:09 You get the case. You're going to court. They can go into court. And with every county their prison is in, you're going to court. You're going to court. You're going to court. Only the way you don't catch the case is you tell. Other than that, you get in the case.

Starting point is 01:32:20 case. Do they bring you back that they brought you back for like a in what you just pled guilty? Well yeah what the hell yeah? I'll play guilty. Fuck yeah. Because I got caught with it on me. Fuck yeah. You don't plead guilty. You'll get a 20 year sentence in there for some shit

Starting point is 01:32:34 that if you got caught within the street would be a fucking misdemeanor probably. Yeah, yeah, you can't. It's smuggling. So listen, the worst thing you could do besides murder in prison is get caught smuggling. Because when you smuggle you, you are

Starting point is 01:32:48 you, the integrity of the prison is at risk because how'd you, how'd you get this cell phone? How'd you get this dope in here, right? How's you do it? You know what I'm saying? They're compromised. So they're going to press your ass death. You get caught at one facility with some drugs.

Starting point is 01:33:04 They're going to ride your ass out to a different facility because they don't, they don't know how you, you know what I'm saying? They're going to get rid of your ass. They're going to see your ass way up north. You're going to send you up north with white people who will call you a nigger in front of your mama on the visiting room. You can be on visit. They would call your mama a nigger.

Starting point is 01:33:20 And if she gets a problem, they put her bitch ass out. They would call your mama a nigger. You're going to do what you got to do. If you feel some type of way, you can have to have your business. But they would call your mama a nigger. Is your mom coming to see you at this time? She came to saw me. She came to see me about six times over the course of my bed.

Starting point is 01:33:43 Yeah. But then, so there are certain inmates inside the MDOC that they, The police won't fuck with it because to fuck with them, there's going to be a, there's certain inmates that just leave alone because they know their inmate has a lot of power. And if you fuck with them, like, I went to IMAX for fucking the police up. We got into it to the Aryan Brotherhood. So we got into the Aryan Brotherhood, and the police were trapped to aid and assist the Aryan Brotherhood.

Starting point is 01:34:09 Yeah, they gave them knives and locked us on the yard with them, with them ABs. And the ABs was stabbing us and shit like that. So we had the, but they didn't, we went to the weight pit. They had a weight pit out there. So we went to the weight pit and got the little five-pound, the five-pound, and we got dumbbells,

Starting point is 01:34:24 and we had crashed them over the head with that. And then the police, when we went in the tides turn and we started to beat the fuck out the Aryan Brotherhood, the COs ran in there trying to grab us, but they wouldn't grabbing

Starting point is 01:34:35 the Aryan Brotherhood members. Right. So the COs would grab the Black people while the Aryan Brotherhood members would be stabbing them. Right. And so we had to fuck the police up too. So we fucked the police up too.

Starting point is 01:34:46 We had to fuck the police up too. we interviewed the CEO that busted the Corcoran Corcoran the courtroom of Corcoran They were shooting the fucking guys in the head Or they were they were bringing the inmates in And putting two gang Yeah two gang members in the same part

Starting point is 01:35:03 Or in the same area And let them fight it out And they let them fight for a little bit And then they'd shoot him Yeah he's the guy that The whistleblower He was the whistleblower We had him come in

Starting point is 01:35:13 Because he was like it was just ridiculous He's like they were just shooting these guys and then they wanted us to shoot them. Like they were giving like, they're like, here's the thing, go up there. We're going to let this guy and this guy out. He's like, well, they're rival game members. You really shouldn't live there. Nah, we'll put them in.

Starting point is 01:35:27 And so here, take these bullets fire with the real rounds. He's like, okay, well, I'm supposed to shoot with the rubber bullets for, you know what I'm saying? He had a whole thing. And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, but you can use these. He's like, yeah, but I'd rather use these. And that's going to kill the guy, you know, and they'd be like, oh, bro, you know, it's fine. They wanted him to do it because they were afraid he was going to tell on them.

Starting point is 01:35:49 Yes. It was a whole, I mean, this went on for like a year or two. He eventually, yeah, he started working with the FBI and everything. And then finally, they basically had to leave because he was in danger. They were going by his house. The cops, the cops are going by his house. They would do that. Absolutely, it would do that.

Starting point is 01:36:03 The correction officers are more corrupt than regular, regular, regular file police officers. No, it's because they can't even be regular. Like, you ended up a CEO because you couldn't be a cop. Right. Right. Yeah, a lot more corrupt and a lot more violent, a lot more, there's a lot more control. And there's less safeguards. Because what, what wildest all agency really gives a fuck about you? No, nobody cares about an inmate, no.

Starting point is 01:36:28 How many inmates, well, I don't know, how many inmates do you know or guys that you know that got, I know, I know, I know tons of it would get arrested, their family or somebody would steal their identity, run up their credit cards, go in and take all their shit. And these guys, they have no way to complain. And even if they write a letter to the local cops saying, listen, man, these guys are, they stole my car, they stole this, they stole that. The cops aren't going to come out and take it. They're not going to, they don't give a fuck. They're not even responding. Like, I don't give a shit.

Starting point is 01:36:56 You get, whatever comes to you, you get. No, that's just what happens. Yeah. Shit, I was going to say something. Yeah, doke. I got a dope kid. I got caught, I got a half ounce. I got to call for the half ounce.

Starting point is 01:37:06 They knew, he knew the inspector. The inspector in the MDOC, the hierarchy, you have the warden, assistant ward and the inspector. The inspectors are like Gestapo. The last person, I would rather the warden called me out. Then the inspector, the inspector, you don't want to, they're not nice people. They're not nice people. The inspector, if he calls you out, you're in trouble.

Starting point is 01:37:33 Period. You're in trouble. And the NVOC, they have this thing called notice of intent. You only have to be a misconduct. They have a slick system where they write what they call an NOI, a notice of intent, on you. And that knows of intent is worse than getting a misconduct because they don't have to have proof. All they have to have is suspicion.

Starting point is 01:37:50 And the suspicion is based on them saying, we're suspicious. That's it. And your ass would be up north, rolled out in the hole for years, for years without no misconduct. A notice of intent in Michigan is a bad motherfucker. And that's what, well, they caught you with the stuff.

Starting point is 01:38:08 Yeah, they caught me with the shit. I was going to see Pro Board. I was going to see Pro Board in two weeks. I got caught at St. Louis. I was at St. Louis Correctional Facility up in Midland, Michigan, and I was going to see parole board in two weeks. The inspector came and he said, hey, listen,

Starting point is 01:38:22 I know that this shit came from, he said the guy's name, one of my partners, right? I know where he came from, and I know he fucking one of my nurses, right? I need you, I need you to, I just need you to say nod you head, yes or no.

Starting point is 01:38:40 Right? He said, I know this shit came from Skip murder. Skip his home now. Right. I know it came to skip. I know he fucking my nurse. Right.

Starting point is 01:38:47 Because if you, if you knock a nurse off and you, you know, you've been, if you can get a nurse, a nurse, a correction is officer. I don't know because I've done it,

Starting point is 01:38:56 but I know because of the guys that have been here. But, like, if you, if you knock off a female, who's the best females knock off? I mean,

Starting point is 01:39:04 I don't know. A CO is a good, yeah, okay. A nurse because nurses have so much, you know, go to the infirmary,

Starting point is 01:39:12 for the healthcare, gets me. He, fuck her. She can be in places that nobody's around. Nobody else can. Yeah, yeah. You're supposed to be alone. So you're supposed to be alone. Where is this, a CEO, they got a fucking, well, I don't know how it's, yeah. And everything's kind of, you know, they're in the, there's people in public eye,

Starting point is 01:39:29 white towers, cameras, all that kind of shit. They have to really go out of their way to try and figure out a way. Me in the closet and we'll have four minutes. Right, right, right. Not that I need four minutes, but some people. You got me two good minutes and I'm straight. What are we going to do for the other two minutes? All right, look at each other.

Starting point is 01:39:43 Right? All right, so the whole thing is, yeah, so he caught me with that. She said, man, I just need you tell me where it came from. That man, close my motherfucking dough, close my slot, bro. You know me? He said, listen, if you tell me where it came from, I will, I will, I'll, he said, you're going to see the pro board. You got a pro boy here in two weeks.

Starting point is 01:40:02 I had a pro board here. I was crying. I'm talking about crying. This was in 2004. I had been gone 12 years. I was going to see a pro boy. I hadn't caught no misconduct. I had been a good boy.

Starting point is 01:40:16 Right? I had been a good boy. I just knew I was going to get me a good parole. Man, I went in that moment. I said, you said, man, I will walk you into your hearing. And I would tell them what an exemplary prisoner you have been, how cooperative you have been. He said, I will walk you into your parole board hearing.

Starting point is 01:40:32 I will guarantee you get a parole. I'm thinking that didn't happen. Not only got to not get a parole. You can send me so far up north. He sent me so far north. That bitch sent me to Barraigua, Michigan. Barrag of Michigan. Okay, so listen, right?

Starting point is 01:40:49 So this is the lower peninsula right here, right? Detroit is right here, right? I was at St. Louis. St. Louis is right here in mid-Michigan, right? This is the upper peninsula right here. This bitch sent me, oh, no. I was on the other side of Wisconsin, bro. You get Milwaukee, what's the fucking baseball team name?

Starting point is 01:41:08 The Milwaukee Brewers. Brewers, the Brewers, baseball. You don't hear, he sent me on the other side of Lake, fucking Michigan, bro. When you get a map, you just put that on the other side of Lake Michigan. I'm on the Wisconsin side of Lake Michigan. Sit my ass way up there to a prison with Barragum Maximum Correctional Facility. It is, I think it is probably the Barragal Max and URF. URF is in Ken Ross, Kenslow, Michigan, right across the bridge.

Starting point is 01:41:36 URF stands for you are fucked. That's what it stands for. You go there, racism. So racism is about a 10 On the scale from 1 to 8 It's about a 10 At Berger Max Racism on the scale from 1 to 10

Starting point is 01:41:54 It is about a 20 It's about 20 You're a nigger all day And they wish you would The big country cornfield white boys Will beat your ass to death Ain't no We listen

Starting point is 01:42:08 We had a CO that He had Nazi tattoos on his arm and they made him wear a sleeve. But everybody knew why the sleeve was. And he was a, his name was Solo. And he was, fuck, he was a, he was a, he was a, like a UFC fighter. Like he was, you know, because these guys aren't 90% of them are, they're not professional, right? They just did.

Starting point is 01:42:32 And he was a semi-professional, listen, this dude, he, he, he would stop, you'd be walking by him. He'd, you know, stop, you, you know, start, turn around. And if you were like, hey, what are you doing? You just see legs in the air Boom, right on the fucking ground He'd jump on He'd hit the button and fucking It was over

Starting point is 01:42:50 He loved it You could tell he loved it You get off of it You get off on you Yeah Hit that button The bad motherfucker I mean

Starting point is 01:42:56 See I have forgotten about the button The way of The deuses Yeah They hit the deucees You hit that button You hit that button There's no

Starting point is 01:43:03 Understanding No You get your ass beat Yeah Yeah You get your ass beat That's like Up there

Starting point is 01:43:09 There's no There's no You know they're clans They are Aryan Brotherhood, Aryan nation, Aryan something. They are a mind comp reading motherfuckers. You hear me? They have it.

Starting point is 01:43:21 They be at the desk reading it. Not even hiding it? No. The Turner Jiris. They bring the literature in for the inmates. Whatever new lit, whatever fucking anti-Jew, anti-whatever, anti-Nigro, they bringing it in and giving it to them. Whatever.

Starting point is 01:43:41 David Duke. Duke was, you know, David Duke was the, when I was in prison, he was the man still. You know what I'm saying? They love fucking David Duke, bro. I can just imagine when they're getting off on Trump right now. I can just imagine. David Duke, do you know what Minkom is? Oh, so listen, this is a manifesto.

Starting point is 01:44:00 It is a third-right manifesto. Yeah, yeah. Adolf Hitler wrote it when he was in prison. He wrote Mn-Komp, which is my struggle. And that's, that was kind of like his, like, you know, like you said, Manifesto or his, it was his kind of like, here's what's wrong and here's what we need to do about it. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:44:17 Yeah. It was a best seller. Emotion. Yeah. It still is. Is it? The Bible in my case, that's number two. The Bible first and that's number two.

Starting point is 01:44:25 Yes. So, all right? So it was, it was, it was, it wasn't, what you're saying, what you're saying is it wasn't a, it wasn't an equitable situation up there for you. It wasn't a good time. No, no. Was it cold? Yes.

Starting point is 01:44:37 You know what fucking cold. Oh, yes. It snow in July up there. You know, it's a fucking cold up there. Yes, it's fucking snowing right now. What is this? June, July, tomorrow. July, it is snowing.

Starting point is 01:44:48 Yeah, it is snowing in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan right now. It is cold. And it is a bitter. Listen, if you don't, if you don't dislike white people, you've got of a fan. Go up there. You go up there. When you leave, there's no way you can, if you spend any time up there as a prisoner in the MDOC,

Starting point is 01:45:11 when you leave, you're going to see. going to hate white people, period. There's nothing the white person can tell you nothing that kind of shit. And there's all kind of shit up there, too. It's like good. Like, people go up there for vacations and shit like that. I was asked to go up there to a,

Starting point is 01:45:24 fucking nuts. That's not no. But when you're a prisoner, you have a different take on all these natural shit. You know what I'm saying? I don't give a fuck. I'm not going. If you asked me,

Starting point is 01:45:36 you might as well, you call it, you talked about my mama, ask me to go up there for a vacation. It's not going to have, never. You cannot spend any measurable amount of time in the Upper Peninsula, Michigan, and leave liking white people.

Starting point is 01:45:49 It's not going to happen. They're worse than Mississippi, white people. Just imagine. You just drugged the comparison. You're not going to believe this. I've never had any problems with them. I'm fucking going to fucking believe you ain't. They've always treated me very well.

Starting point is 01:46:04 I bet you they have. You know, but listen, if you have black, but see, listen, they do white people who are with black friends, your ass. Your ass is in trouble. Fuck, no. They're going to ask you what the fuck are you doing? Right? And if you don't have a good excuse, right? Your ass is going to get the same beating I'm going to get.

Starting point is 01:46:22 You're going to get the same shit. You're going to tear all your pictures, your kids. They're going to tear your pictures. You, they're going to tear your children. They're going to tear your pictures up while you stand there in handcuffs of your kids. Tear them up. Or they're going to take them. I'm going to get all the time.

Starting point is 01:46:37 So how long until you finally do get your 17 and a half? I did 17 straight. I did 16 years, nine months, 29 days. I have a question. I heard on the last podcast that you did three months in the hole, or three years in the hole. Three years, I'm at the police situation. I spent, I spent. Can you explain what's the difference between the hole in the shoe?

Starting point is 01:47:00 Like, what's the whole like in state? There's no different. It's just different facilities or might some, some are worse. Some facilities are worse. The higher level you go. Yeah. So when I first got to prison, MR. Gladier School, the whole.

Starting point is 01:47:10 the whole was called the graves graves like a dungeon there's like a mint evil castle so in Michigan we had three prisons that were under federal consent decree because they were condemned they were not supposed to be open

Starting point is 01:47:26 they were only allowed to be open because they were under a federal consent decree because they needed to space to house prisoners it was like you either let us keep them here or we got to let these guys go yes right so that meant that if you were housed in one of those free prisons

Starting point is 01:47:38 everything that you get in the feds You have to get in those prisons because they're prisoners on the federal consent decree. Yeah, college, programming, the whole nine yards, right? So the grades, the Michigan Reformatory was like a castle, like a medieval castle, right? So you would get rewarded. You would get rewarded if nobody got killed in three months. Rewarding is, the warden her name was Big Ancles, aka Pam Wentrow. Right?

Starting point is 01:48:07 We call her Big Ancles, because her ankles was like this, right? All right. And she would bring in a donkey. So the NBA, it's a baseball diamond. And you hit the ball, jump on the donkey, and the donkey would rad you around the fucking the donkey. And she would give you ice cream, and they would do barbecue.

Starting point is 01:48:31 But we would have to go three months without somebody dying, right? And that's 26 and younger, right? 10 years or more, right? Or high tickets. No, I had Thai tickets and everything. So, and then what she would do was a furniture factory. So Michigan, so you know the knives. So knives were not called knives.

Starting point is 01:48:50 They called swords. Because the average knife in Michigan reformatory was about between 12 to 14 inches. And they would razor sharp, like an arrowhead. It would be a piece of steel because it was a furniture factory. We made desks for schools and stuff like that. There was prison industry shit, right? So the knives would be like. like this long, the knives are so big.

Starting point is 01:49:13 I'm like, well, what the fuck are you going to do with that? It's like a, you're going to hit him and knock him out? If you stab, some, I've seen people get stabbed in here and go out in the back of them, like Dracula. It was like some Dracula shit. Right? So, now you're going to die. I've seen, I've seen, I've seen all the eye out, drowned in the toilet.

Starting point is 01:49:31 I've seen people get drowned in the toilet. Run up in the cell and drown them in their toilet. The prison was so bad that when you flush your toilet, I had to, flush my toilet if I'm next to you. So the shit can go down. Because if I flush my toilet and you don't flush your toilet, then my shit is going to come up in your toilet. That's how much of a condemned facility it was. It was condemned. So we would all say flush. And so you have seven to eight guys flush. And so the water

Starting point is 01:49:59 pressure would flush the shit down and out. You wake up in the morning. We had to sleep with a towel over our toilet because you wake up in the morning, it'd be shit in your toilet from the guy one or two sales over. That's how terrible it was. And then we didn't kill somebody every night. If we can go 98 without somebody dying, then she would get a flat-bed pickup truck,

Starting point is 01:50:23 and then she would pull it up outside the fence. Then we had white strippers and music playing, and then we'd all be at the fence. Like some fucking zoo animals. Eating ice cream, we had to fucking dung. you're talking around with the white girl strippers outside the fucking I'm fucking I'm fucking I you ask this is a carnival it doesn't exist anymore like that right it was it was Michigan reformatory you asked anybody who's been in the EmoC with the OMR we had bars

Starting point is 01:50:55 not not the cell doors you would die it would kill you they would kill you it would kill you the guards are key yeah guard the graves you go to the graves it was like it was like it was like the count of Monte Cristo before he came to count. Yeah. When you come out the grave, your eyes are sensitive to light. It's called the grades for

Starting point is 01:51:16 reason. You were meant to die down here. So what, so how long till you, well, you said that but then the question was you go into the... The whole for three years. 36 months. Yeah, yeah, it was 36 months. But fucking up the Aryan brotherhood and the police at M.R.

Starting point is 01:51:34 Right. They send me from M.R to IMAX and then from IMAX I went to Oaks Max I went to Stanis Max from Stannis Max. From Stannis Max I went to Munis and Max. I went from Munisand Max back to Oaks Max and I went from Oaks Maxx to St. Louis and St. Louis level four I went back up to fucking Bergera Bax.

Starting point is 01:51:53 Barragumax is the worst prison. Barragamax and U.R.F. You are fucked. Don't get no worse than that. So I did level five. So level five is 23 and one. You're locked up 23 hours a day you only out for one. You get 20 minutes to eat. So it's really, it's really,

Starting point is 01:52:10 so 23 and 1 is really more than 23 and 1. Because in level 5s, in Michigan, you're locked up 23 hours a day. You come out, you have 20 minutes to eat breakfast, lunch, lunch, and dinner. So that's an hour. 20 minutes. When the time they open your door,

Starting point is 01:52:23 you, your ass back in that sale in 20 minutes, or you're going to get a ticket out of place. Out of place misconduct ticket, right? And then you get six minutes to take a shower. You get six minutes. You go in the shower, while wrong, you get six. You got six minutes to ladder up and they turn it off.

Starting point is 01:52:38 And you get one hour a yard a day. So it's really like, it's really like you're like to have 22 hours, 20, and. So it's roughly two hours, about two hours. Unless you have a job. If you go to school or you have a job in the kitchen, if you're a porter, you can come out more than that, but you're locked up. So the guys that used to come to the Fed, and I'm pretty sure that Josh said this too.

Starting point is 01:52:59 But I remember this one guy, Apollonia, used to talk about being in Florida State prison where you get your food, you go and you sit down and you eat and they, they're basically counting, you know, like, you know, one minute, you got one minute left, you know, and then you're, they're eating, they eat and then they get up and they leave. Are they talking? Yeah, yeah. Ain't no talking in the town. Well, he used to talk, all the time like, where guys would be like, you don't eat the biscuit, you know, the biscuit, that's actually, but, you know, you're going to eat that. Yeah, yeah, no, here. And you, you, you know, you're going to

Starting point is 01:53:30 fucking buddy. You want, like, the cookie. You want that. Oh, no, no, no, no. You got to do under the table, you get to be real small. They're like, you just, you look down, you eat, you get your shit up, and you walk. That's level five. Level five. But level five is also violent. You know what I'm saying? You just, you just, I was, I, anything is a weapon.

Starting point is 01:53:47 We'd be, listen, we'd be in the chow hall for fucking hours. I'd go sit out and eat and you could go back through. Oh, no. So in the lower level, you go, so Michigan, you have level one to level five. Level five is max joint. Right. It called me max joint baby. I'm a max joint baby.

Starting point is 01:54:01 So when you're a max joint baby, you, when you come down to lower levels, You have people in the lower level like, oh, he's from the max joint. Oh, fuck, no. Because they know that you're surrounded by acute violence and just craze, depraved shit. They know. You're not talking out your problems. What? You're not going to talk.

Starting point is 01:54:20 Listen, in level five, so listen, level five is so violent. Talking out of problem? No. There's no talking, even level fours. In level fours, there's some negotiation if you're in level four. in Michigan. There's some negotiation. Level five, no, they're trying to kill you. And then the violence

Starting point is 01:54:40 is really violent because if you get into a fight, there's so many officers in level five, you only get like good 60 seconds to fight. So people are trying to inflict the greatest amount of damage as fast as possible. So you know, like

Starting point is 01:54:59 when I came out of prison, I got to a couple of scuffles, I beat the fuck out of them because, you know what I'm saying? I'm used to inflicting damage fast. You ain't got no 10 minutes to be fighting no motherfucking no sale. No, I'm going to beat your ass really, really fast. I got a minute. You know, psychologically, I got to fuck your ass up.

Starting point is 01:55:20 That's how it goes. So when they call you in for the parole, is it just like that you go in front of a board? There's like five people and you, is that how? No, normally, so to Michigan, so back then, And it was like nine, ten parole board members. And normally one member would come to a prison and they would schedule you.

Starting point is 01:55:41 You know you're going to parole. They would tell you like, about 30 or 60 days, the first time for you to go. You know, because they got a flat report. You know what I'm saying? And the report is all the programming you've done since the last time you saw a parole board

Starting point is 01:55:54 if you've ever saw them. All the stuff you've done, any certificates you've earned, any misconducts, all that stuff is in there. You know what I'm saying, what you're crying is, all that kind of shit. So you go sitting from the pro board

Starting point is 01:56:03 It's just like right here is a parole board hearing. This, how it looked, plain table. Nothing that an inmate can use as a weapon. Right? Just like this. No, nothing, just this. And they have a, they have your folder. They have a stack of folders right here.

Starting point is 01:56:17 Austin, flip through, oh, you asshole. Right, flip that shit back. You know what I'm saying? And then in Michigan, they had 12-month, 18-month, and 24-month flops. Continuations, they call flop. We got flops, though. So they can give you a year, an 18 month, or a 24-month continuation.

Starting point is 01:56:39 Just imagine you're going to sit rowboard. They say, you get the shit, because they don't tell you right there on the spot because you fucking go ballistic. So you get the shit under your door, put it flat up on your door. He's like, I get my shit. It's like a piece of paper and a staple. You get unstable the bitch. 24 months. 24-month continuation.

Starting point is 01:57:01 But your whole family, no. I'm going to throwboard. You got the kids. Yeah, you come home? You have to come home. You get this shit. It's like the fed, but when it's time you go, it's time to go. They play with you.

Starting point is 01:57:14 They give you a minimum sentence and a maximum sentence in Michigan. You can get a three or 20. You can get a one to 40. You can get a, you know what I'm saying? They can literally hold you to your maximum date depending on your conduct. They can hold you. They can hold you.

Starting point is 01:57:28 I know motherfuckers who came to prison with a one to 20 and did 20. He maxed. I mean, you almost did 20. Yeah. I mean, the whole thing is I was already set on maxing out. Right. I had already told myself because I knew I caught, I caught maybe 45 tickets while I was in prison.

Starting point is 01:57:49 And all of them were fighting, assault, fighting or assault, all of them. You know what I'm saying? So I had already told myself that I'm going to max out. You know what I was psychologically prepared. I was already prepared. It was just like Shawshank Rediffson. You know how Morgan Freeman went in there?

Starting point is 01:58:07 That's one of my favorite movies. Yeah, he went in there like this. He leaned back. You know, because you wear your own clothes, you're going to pro-board hearing. You can put the outfit on and go. I went there with the state blues on. I didn't give a fuck. I didn't shave or nothing.

Starting point is 01:58:20 I wasn't even going to go to the hearing. There's a guy, one of my main guy is in the MDOC. His name is Tricky. L.A. Tricky. He's a crib from L.A. Right? He was never going home. He called a bank robbery.

Starting point is 01:58:33 in California, then he went to Mississippi on the run, caught bank robbery, and then he came to Michigan, did bank robbery, and killed a state trooper, a Michigan state trooper at Michigan, never going home, right? So I was around lifers,

Starting point is 01:58:45 even though I didn't have life. When you're around lifers and you don't have life, it does, you play it like they play it. You know what I'm saying? You cannot be on the same type of shit they own. The same, I don't give a fuck attitude they have. You got to be on the same shit.

Starting point is 01:58:58 So they're like, oh, they're awesome. The pro board. they put my dough back I mean, call my motherfucking dough I ain't going to show my fucking pro board I said, call my dough back I said, my head out say pro, I said, what's this?

Starting point is 01:59:13 See, I didn't even realize it was my, I didn't even realize the date was, I, fuck I ain't going. So they blew my dough back. Austin, a pro, a pro board report to the control center. I looked at, I said, call my motherfucking dough back. I know I ain't feeling

Starting point is 01:59:28 get no pro. I know anything for me to get no pro. Come my motherfucker do back. The NBA, feel to come on in a minute. Come on my dog back. I ain't going to that fucking pro, boy. I sat there. So he's right across the hall for me.

Starting point is 01:59:40 He came to the door. He said, what the fuck is you doing? I said, what you mean? He's like, man, he said, listen, bro, I'm never going home. I'm going to die. I don't have kids or nothing. I'm never going home. He said, man, you stupid-ass nigger.

Starting point is 01:59:52 Anytime you get an opportunity to go and speak up for your own freedom, you take it. What the fuck is wrong with you over there? I'm going to max out. I got about three, four more years left. Fuck him. You know what I'm saying? You can max out I'd rather just max out

Starting point is 02:00:04 to go to be on parole say now fuck that I'm just gonna max out and then fuck it I don't give a fuck you know he said listen man you're fucking nuts

Starting point is 02:00:11 bro he said man you had like a dumb ass nigga over there say bro anytime you get the opportunity as articulate as you are as you know what I'm saying whenever you get the opportunity to go speak up for your own freedom

Starting point is 02:00:21 you never not take that opportunity the fuck is wrong with you I'm never going home and I'm glad I'm talking about him now so I got to send him some money because he did want so I went in there

Starting point is 02:00:30 But I went, I didn't, I didn't get, because, you know, if you have clothes, you wear clothes. If you have state blues, you crease them up and shit. Yeah, yeah. And get yourself all getting shave up and shit. Look, go sit up straight. I swear to God, man. I went to him up with slouching like this. Like that.

Starting point is 02:00:45 So, and it was a parole board chairman. There's a chairman. It was Barbara Samson. She was like, uh, so she, it was like a non-conventional parole board hearing. No one of the ask you, hey, what you, blah, blah, blah. She looked through my shit. And she said, uh, if you were to get a problem. pro, what's the first thing you would do?

Starting point is 02:01:06 Now I said shit. Now I said shit, because you don't be cussing from the pro boy. I said, shit, right? I said, shit. I don't go get my motherfucking kids taking this ice cream. Quote, unquote. Right? No, you don't cuss in front of the parole boy.

Starting point is 02:01:22 You don't do that. You do not cussing. Right. You're getting your best behavior. Even if you're a fucking savage in there, you come out. I said, shit, man. I'll get my motherfucking kids taking get some ice cream, man. My kids grew up while I was in, you know what I'm saying?

Starting point is 02:01:35 So she's like, you wouldn't go and find you a lady friend? Like, fuck no. I've been jacking off for 20 years. You didn't say that, did you? Yes, I said, I've been jacking up. I've been jacking off for 20 years. I've been, I've been, you know what I'm saying? I'm jacking out 20 years.

Starting point is 02:01:51 No, fuck that. You know what I'm saying? I would go, my kids, I would go spend time with my kids taking this. You know what I'm saying? I would go be with my kids. No, it's like, she said, I've never heard nobody to say that. I think I was cussed. I didn't give a fuck.

Starting point is 02:02:04 I know I'm not for to get no pro, man. I know I'm not feeling like, and those are things I didn't play in. Like, Shawshank Redemption, that's real. I, I didn't forget of the role. The one time he went in and said, listen. I swear to God.

Starting point is 02:02:16 You know, I swear to God, I swear to God, to my kids, that's what happened at hearing. I didn't think I was getting no pro. I left out that parole board hearing. I said, I don't know I didn't fuck that up. Oh, well, NBA finals. I'm feeling to go watch the NBA.

Starting point is 02:02:28 Do a cookup. You know what I'm saying. I had a, I had a, I had a nacho durette with the meat stick and the pickles and the cheese stick. And, you know, the cheese, tub of cheese and the, you know what I'm saying? So the peppers, the popping peppers, yellow peppers? I understand. Well, you get, I'm saying.

Starting point is 02:02:45 You feel what I'm going to. You got a whole thing ready. Nacho do, we called the nacho do. Right? And so about a month went by. So I went to talk to the counselor. I don't see, because I ain't had no points. They sent me to level four, but those of them intent.

Starting point is 02:03:00 for a robbery. Right. That they couldn't prove I did that they had no evidence but they wrote they couldn't write me a ticket and Misconda so they wrote me

Starting point is 02:03:07 an N-O-I and noticed him in tent and sent me to level four. No points. So I wasn't even supposed to be here. I couldn't go to level one because I had a very high assault risk

Starting point is 02:03:15 and high poverty property risk so I could never go to a level one, right? Even if I had a pro I couldn't go to level one. So I went to talk to the counselor about hey man I didn't get me the fuck up out of here,

Starting point is 02:03:23 man. The counselor was new. No, when the counselors are new, they green. Yeah, yeah. They still think they're going to make a difference. Yeah, that type of shit, right?

Starting point is 02:03:31 So I went and I said, man, I'm supposed to get permission to go to talk to the counselor. I'm like, man, I'm like, man, I'm supposed to have a rat out in. Man, when he got my transfer in, right? So he looked, he's like, what's his name? I've been bugging him, you know what I'm saying? Like, oh, he went through, look. He said, so your transfer is in. Now, mind you, I'm across the bridge and you Pete, where you are fucked.

Starting point is 02:03:56 That's where I was at, right? Like I'm a pro. And he said, uh, you're saying, uh, you're supposed. say P-29, they had changed the codes, right? He said, what's the P-29? I don't know. I'm just standing there. I'm sneaking, because I'm put in being in the day room, right?

Starting point is 02:04:08 So he called, he called another council. Like, what's the P-29? He said, P-29 is a parole. I can hear through the phone. I heard him say parole. But, no, that shit didn't register to me. Now I'm fucking retarded, you know what I'm saying? So I heard you say parole, but I didn't hear it.

Starting point is 02:04:26 Like when I told me about my daddy, I heard shit, but I didn't hear it, right? So he said, he hung up, he said, okay, thank you, hung up. He said, hey, you got a parole. You say, P29 and parole. He looked up to the coast and parole. Mile Road.

Starting point is 02:04:39 Mile road is in Detroit. I hadn't been nowhere near Detroit in 17 years. So they had some shit called a reentry program. So P29 meant reentry program. Pee was programmed. Yeah. 29 is parole. So you go to Mile Road in Detroit.

Starting point is 02:04:54 I hadn't smelled Detroit, because Detroit has a smell to it. Not a, not a, not, not, not, not, not, not, I'm saying some derogatory. Right. This is, the music, you, the feeling, right? So, you see, I said, I said, I said, I said, I start stuttering. Like, ah, bro. I said, me, you got a pro.

Starting point is 02:05:15 I said, man, stop playing me, bro. I got kids, man, stop playing me, man. Stop, don't play with me, man. It's not, no, no. Say, come here. So I stepped in. So you wasn't pulled, I wasn't supposed to be in without permission. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:05:24 So I stepped in there, he turned the screen around. Look, went down, he said, look, P-29, Mount Road, transfer in, yep, pro. So listen, in the Michigan Department of Corrections, the higher level you in, you don't want to tell nobody you got no pro. Oh, they get jealous, they might fuck, and they start trying you because they know you're, yeah, even, even the most gazed. They, they, they, they, they, muffles never going home. Yeah. The higher level you go, the more desperate and destitute people are psychologically, never going home. So the general rule is you don't tell nobody you got a parole

Starting point is 02:06:00 Because somebody will make you jack it off That's what it's called Jack your parole off All of a sudden they want to fight Like bro, you know how I stab you Why are you gonna make me jack my parole off You know I was fucking stab you bro, go on They don't want to pay your shit

Starting point is 02:06:13 I ain't giving you shit You know how you get a prisoner store You're two for ones They don't want to pay your shit What's you're gonna do You got parole? What's you gonna do? You want to fight? We can fight Then they want to fight right in front of the police

Starting point is 02:06:23 They don't want to go in the sale to fight They want to fight right They just want to fuck your shit out yes, I was scared. I've only been scared one time in prison, like literally. I've been fearful, but I'm scared.

Starting point is 02:06:35 Like, broke out of the sweat and that's when I got that fucking parole. I'm like, oh man, and I did so much shit to people. People started hearing, I got a fro,

Starting point is 02:06:42 they would love it. Tell on you, he doing this, he, or whatever the case may be. A motherfuckerer was swing on you right in front of the police, knowing you're going to swing back.

Starting point is 02:06:51 You know what I'm saying? Knowing you, you swing on me, because I fall down, your bitch ass right now. But I'm going to fall down. You're fucking on me. I'm going to fall down.

Starting point is 02:06:57 bitch I'm going home I got a pro I was shocked everybody who knew me was shocked that was terrible I was shocked I was literally shocked I was I went to my sale and it took him about two weeks to rad me out I didn't come out I would stop coming out I stopped going whatever you are I stopped going I thought no two weeks for what oh two he took him he told me took him two weeks from me out okay he wrote me out from you are a fuck down the mile road which is in Detroit and that's why for your auto transfer right yeah yeah yeah yeah I didn't come out myself. No, you bitch just ain't

Starting point is 02:07:30 going to give me like that. I told you that. Remember the guy, God, I forget his name. God, I can't believe I can see him too. He was, we just finished Art App. He was in for halfway house, and he was leaving in like,

Starting point is 02:07:44 he was leaving like a month. And coming out. And something, we were all staying around. Something happened. And I made a comment. And, God, what was his name? I can't remember. But anyway, somebody goes,

Starting point is 02:07:56 oh, you better watch out. you know, Shuler do whatever. And I looked over at him, he looked at me. I said, shit. I said he's a, he leaving two weeks to go to fucking, to go to a halfway house or whatever. I said, he ain't doing nothing. He said, I'm gonna tell you the truth, Cox.

Starting point is 02:08:11 And he walked over to me. I thought, oh shit, you know? And he goes, I'm so fucking close. He said, you could slap me dead in my fucking shit right now. I wouldn't do a fucking thing. He goes, you understand me? Like, and I'm like, no, I get it. But he's still, you know, he's a big guy,

Starting point is 02:08:27 But I understand because I know that's what happens. Hey, listen, when I left the street, there was no riverwalk in Detroit. There was no casinos. None of this shit. Oh, yeah. I left the street in 1992. There was no casino. There was no river walk.

Starting point is 02:08:40 When I left the street, see, Detroit is a reverse city. Detroit is the only city that has a coastline where it was underdeveloped. Detroit's downtown area and the riverwalk area, it was all mob shit. They never developed. It wasn't like San Antonio or like Miami. The Detroit's riverfront was It was warehouse, dead bodies Tampa Bay

Starting point is 02:09:01 Yes, Tim Bay's night Like you go down there You can walk the whole thing There's tons of restaurants And everything It's all very developed Yeah, it's none of that It was, it was still

Starting point is 02:09:11 It's still undeveloped right now Right? But it was, when I was up the street No casino's none of that shit None of that shit, none of that shit. So, okay, so when you went back, what was it like?

Starting point is 02:09:21 Went back where? When came home? Yeah. Oh shit, I was good because my wife had a really good job. Right. You're still married? It's been 17 years.

Starting point is 02:09:32 Yeah, I came home and got married to my kid's mother. Oh, okay. Right. So I came home and she didn't necessarily wait on me. What happened to the first wife? She divorced me. Son of a bitch. She divorced me.

Starting point is 02:09:45 I ain't going to call her something. We have a decent relationship now. Right. You know what I'm saying? I was a piece of shit when I was in the street. You know what I'm saying? You're a piece of shit. Come on.

Starting point is 02:09:54 Right. is right um and she divorced me i was in the county jail she divorced me she seemed i got i got i got a divorce paper where i was in the county jail so i got i got i got i got the divorce papers and sentenced the same day really bummer day really bummer for me so when you came back were you saying when you came back that that the coastline in detroit that it was all developed it was all more developed yeah more developed casinos were already there uh it looked it was a different world you know everything was different i did 17 years nothing was the same so when did you have it was When did you go in?

Starting point is 02:10:26 I went in 1992. I came home. When did you go out? May 13, 2009. I came home. I got like the November, 7th, 1999. I came home May.

Starting point is 02:10:38 Oh, so you missed the whole internet, the whole, so now it's, yeah. Yeah, when I came home, she, I missed all that shit, bro. We still have cell phones and briefcases.

Starting point is 02:10:49 And the NECs, the NEC joints, the, with the, the square, rectangular or shake joints. No, hell no. In 2009, so Facebook was just starting to kind of boom.

Starting point is 02:10:59 Yeah, Facebook, Myspace was dying out. It was kind of dead, yeah. Yeah, my face was dying out. Facebook was really king. Yeah. Yeah, Twitter wasn't even. Facebook, you know what I'm saying? Facebook was like king.

Starting point is 02:11:11 I came home. I didn't even look like I had been gone all that time. So I came, I had the car. I had clothes. She spent like five, six grand on clothes alone for me. Just, I came home. I came home with true religions were really popular. True religions were probably where I,

Starting point is 02:11:24 came home in 2009. And the mortgage shit started to happen with the mortgage people. The mortgage. Oh, you came in 2009, but that's full-blown collapse. Everything's going down. They had collapsed.

Starting point is 02:11:38 Yeah, because I was in prison. Guys who I was in prison with, they were in prison in the state joint for the mortgage shit, mortgage fraud, all that kind of shit, right? I'm like, you what? You lie.

Starting point is 02:11:48 Bitch, you ain't need no mortgage shit. They say, you lie. And in Michigan is so crazy. and the MDOC you can go to prison for being behind your child support. If you $10,000 more in rear as a child support, guys would come to prison for child support. I said, you're a lie.

Starting point is 02:12:03 You can't get you something. Yes, no, child support will get you sent to prison. Fuck Bill Clinton. I was Bill Clinton did that. Fuck Bill Clinton. I don't think you can get in Florida. I don't think you can go for child support. Yeah, but Florida, it's too hot to go to prison down.

Starting point is 02:12:18 I can't say you there right now. No, that he's got no AC. Fucking. Anytime somebody mentions Florida State Prison, my first thought is there's no air conditioning. Right. Like, fuck it. Like, that's just the most miserable thing I could think of is no air conditioning.

Starting point is 02:12:31 I don't stop anywhere. No air conditioning, that's a deal breaker with me. You got a fan, though. I don't get you a fan. So, shit. The actor from Elf, who was recently arrested, is in Tampa, Florida, for criminal contempt of court he was held on an active warrant

Starting point is 02:12:47 connected to unpaid child support in a reopened paternity case. Oh, so he is going to, so they did arrest. that that's what he was arrested for? I mean, that's what... Oh, okay, so maybe you can, I guess. Yeah. Bill Clinton, the Democrats, do you know anything?

Starting point is 02:13:02 Being a Michigan guy, Detroit, you have any info or opinions on the NFL player from Detroit currently locked up in Tampa? Do you know anything about that? Yeah, yeah, stupid. One word, stupid. And listen, how, listen,

Starting point is 02:13:17 I don't get fuck who broke into what? All that shit is insured. That is a... You obviously on some thug shit. Hey, listen, as a people, right, we work hard to build better lives for ourselves, whether it is illegal or legal. We work hard to get there. You got to be a special kind of stupid motherfucker to be in an NFL. Whatever you have, you can get it back.

Starting point is 02:13:48 Whatever you have is more likely than not insured. You, that is the epitome of being of, listen, talk about short-sightedness. Talk about not valuing your position, your status in life. I don't have any sympathy for motherfuckers who've crawled their ways over their way out of poverty, right? Or out of the ghetto. And then you not think, you're not taking into account. You're not consider how far you can fall. And how fast I don't have any sympathy for motherfuckers like that.

Starting point is 02:14:24 I don't have somebody for rappers. I don't have sympathy for motherfuckers who are millionaires who choose to do the dumbest shit in the world. And most of them come from poverty. They come from. Yeah. So if you are willing to trade your life and trade your freedom and trade your status

Starting point is 02:14:36 because somebody broke in your house, man, fuck that shit. You can get it back. It's like O.J. Simpson got a total pass and then went and fucking kicked in that dude's door or tried to remove for some memorabilia. for some memorabilia that he says was stolen from him. And it was just stupid.

Starting point is 02:14:53 Like, you got a pass, bro. That didn't happen the second time. No, no. Hell no. It's just it's what it is. They tore his ass up. You know what I'm saying? To his ass up.

Starting point is 02:15:04 How do we do? What are we doing? Just really, after prison getting out. Like, what do you, you got in 09. So I started businesses when I came home. I started an income tax company. So I do a, I have a full financial services company. I started a property management company.

Starting point is 02:15:19 I'll make good money. I make over a million dollars a year. Look at this. This is ridiculous. Like the story you just fucking told and you get out and that's and that you start up. I watched an 80-Nar black tax school

Starting point is 02:15:32 when I started the income tax company. But when I came home, see when I came home, so here's an interesting story. When I came home, this is a Michigan thing. What was happening? When I came home in 2009,

Starting point is 02:15:42 four Chrysian GM were buying out, right? They were buying out their employees. So they would give you $40,000 of car, and buy you out. There, you'd be going, right? So what happened was, when I came home,

Starting point is 02:15:54 I got a job instantly, right? What happened was that my wife, it was her idea. Because my resume has a gap in it. Right. My resume has a gap in that motherfucker, to the tune of 17 years, right? So I was in college, I went to prison, I came home.

Starting point is 02:16:12 So how did we explain this resume shit? My wife said, hey, listen, board Christ and GM, people are taking by, Once you took the buyout for Ford Chrysend GM, their HR departments did not keep track of the people who took buyouts, right? So we're going to say that you worked for Chrysler from 1992 to 2007, you took the buyout, you started the business, the business collapse, so it forced you back into the job market. Right. That explained it.

Starting point is 02:16:43 And she knew because of her position that she worked and she worked for the government that most, listen, the private sector, the federal government, I've worked, I've worked for, I've worked at General Motors. I was a site operations manager over a GM power train plant. I managed the entire physical property, 2.5 million square feet of property. And it was a test facility because it was the first GM plant that had robotic high lows. I ran the entire facility inside and out. I was home six months. I was making $140,000 a year in that job.

Starting point is 02:17:21 I had P.SRB meetings, monthly meetings where the department here is, each department in the plant had to come and report out in front of the plant manager and assistant plant manager, including the, so you had the union bosses there too, local Ray Woods, Steve Rubley, who was the president for Local 400, which was, and then you had the pipe fitters, local 900 there, and we all reported out about everything going on in the plant. I went from there to Chrysler. I was a shift supervisor for Chrysler in Detroit, starting to Staphamham Plant. for two years, and I'm from there to Detroit Metropolitan Airport. I was a supervisor at the McNamara terminal at Detroit Metropolitan Airport. I went to interview for the job, didn't think I was going to get it because I'm a fucking criminal.

Starting point is 02:18:04 I had no idea that the feds have more lenient higher practices than their private sector do. You can't work in, if you don't have a felony in 10 years, you don't have a misdemeanor in five years, you can work under a federal contract in a federal facility. You can't work in law enforcement,

Starting point is 02:18:20 but you can work in a federal facility. They have more lenient, high-end practices than the private sector do. And then my wife, she also knew that. So in high turnover rate drops, like the plant, like four questions and GM, the turnover rate is high as hell. They don't do lifetime background checks. They don't do state police background checks.

Starting point is 02:18:41 So you didn't do seven years or 10 years. The longer you look back, the higher, the more it costs to do in your background check. So most jobs do 17 years. I think I'm going on 17. I don't have to even say I had a felony. I think on 17 fucking years. So I put down, I work for Chrysler from 1992.

Starting point is 02:19:01 How are you going to check it? I took the buyout. The HR department, they did away with the records. They don't keep track of who took the buyout. There's no way for you to check to see if I did it or didn't. Right. So I worked for Cisco Systems, the food distribution company. I was in charge of the Canton, Michigan facility,

Starting point is 02:19:18 and the Chicago, Illinois. facility. The last W-2 job where I was on salary employee, but the last W-2 job I had was in 2017. I launched my income tax company. I launched my income tax company in 2015, but my last salary position was in 2017. So I have an income tax company, we specialize in all things income tax. I can give you my spirit if you want me to. I specialize in all things, income tax, from corporate tax, payroll tax, of course, self-employment. And so we don't just work from January to April, which is tax season work year-round, because we also specialize in all the claims as well. And we also specialize, you have you ever seen a commercial where it says if you're

Starting point is 02:19:57 in trouble with the IRS for more $10,000, you mean to qualify for the first-star initiative. Yeah. But the first-star initiative is just a televised publicized term. The real term is called an offering compromise. So if you owe the IRS, so if you're in debt with the IRS for more than $10,000, they have to sell it with you for less than a third. And in many cases, it's less than 10% of what you owe, but you have to fill out the paperwork in order to qualify. We do that as well. We do all the cleanups, we specialize to get liens and levies lifted off of real property, bank accounts and stuff like that.

Starting point is 02:20:24 And we also specialize in, and we also have, so that morphed into credit repair. We also do credit repair. So most people who know me, they know this about, I don't have a lot of friends, but the people who know me, they know this about me. Right. So people like, well, you're Instagram, like, you sell drugs. No. I got all this shit that a rapper got.

Starting point is 02:20:46 You know what I'm saying? I don't sell drugs. I don't do it. And I own a property management company, too. So I own 23 pieces of property in the city of street that I ran out, including four pieces of commercial property. So I came home and I got to it. Vastly different than your operating, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 02:21:02 That's what I'm saying is like you would, based on the story up until the release of prison, you would never think that that was the second act. Yeah, so I know more about the IRS and IRS tax laws than most of our large-scale clients come from CPA. They come from CPAs who are disgruntled with your CPA. A CPA doesn't mean that you are a tax expert. CPA means you're a bookkeeper. Right. You took a class in your pursuit to get your degree to become a certified public account.

Starting point is 02:21:32 That means you're a tax expert. Most of our large-scale clients, we have clients that owe the IRS $700,000, $800,000, get their debt reduced to $50,000. I've done stuff for people in the rap community. I've helped a lot of people out. I don't talk about it because that part of my life It's not congruent with the whole dog face.

Starting point is 02:21:51 Yeah, that's not as flat. Come on, that's not as cool. Yeah, and cool. I want you to think I sell drugs, whatever. Whatever you think. Whatever you think I do, whatever. You know what I'm saying? Whatever.

Starting point is 02:22:02 Hey, you guys, I appreciate you watching. Do me a favor. Hit the subscribe button, hit the bell, so get notified a video just like this. If you want to follow Dog Face, Colderon, please go into the description box. The main link he wants you to go to is Instagram, so you can check out all of his stuff. And also check out his YouTube channel. I really do appreciate you guys. watching. Thank you very much. If you want to be a guest, we're going to leave our link for our

Starting point is 02:22:23 website so you can go there. You can fill out a form, leave a short video, and be considered to be a guest on Inside True Crime. Thank you very much. See ya.

Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - How Detroit's Luxury Car Thief Made Millions | Dawgface Calderon

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