Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - How Fraudsters Make Millions Off Prisoners

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Starting point is 00:00:25 We'd love to talk, business. Hey, I'm Seth Shackner. Check out my new show, Breaking Down the Biz. Every week, I sit down with people who actually make movies, music, and media happen. Executives from Sony, Universal, Apple, NBC. Together, we cut through industry jargon and hype to show you how the business is built. What's key to making everything come together and why it matters to you. From iTunes impact on the music industry to the advent of AI, from the Taylor Swift ticket sales fiasco, to Bad Bunny's Meteor dark rise, we break down the stories, the numbers, and the negotiations that shape the industry. I've been in the trenches of the entertainment industry for several decades with leadership roles

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Starting point is 00:01:41 Let's make sense of this industry together. You're happy I'm going to prison for 40 years. I've got to find a way to get out of prison. You have these prison consultants that are robbing people stealing. He makes more money by working on your case less. Winning to him is get this motherfucker-slee guilty. It's all manipulation. They do come to see me.

Starting point is 00:02:02 And they're like, hey, look, you want to get out of prison? Man, it's all nonsense, man. It's all alive. I grew up in Rochester, New York. Pretty dangerous place, dangerous city. Father was a, father was like a famous, I hate to say this, but kind of like a famous crackhead in our neighborhood. Mother ends up becoming a single mother on welfare.

Starting point is 00:02:22 My father leaves when I'm three years old, shoots at us with a 12-gauge shotgun. Who, your family or just your mom? Oh, well, my father. He shoots at me and my mom, And we're kind of like escaping. So my mom throws me out of a window. She jumps out the window.

Starting point is 00:02:39 In the house? In the house. He shoots us with a shotgun in the house. We escape. We get out the window. My mother ends up throwing me over this fence. And I end up in a pricker bush. She pulls me out of the pricker bush.

Starting point is 00:02:50 And pretty much we escape. My father ends up leaving. He moves to Las Vegas at that time. Cops were obviously looking for him. But you know, it was in the 80s back then, early 80s. So crime, cops. It wasn't like it is now. Back then they didn't really give a shit.

Starting point is 00:03:03 He just disappeared. There's no computers to find people. So he goes to probably Las Vegas, I don't know, for 10, 11 years, ends up actually leaving with my mother's friend. And he ends up with her. They get married down there in Las Vegas. And he has a daughter with her. And I'm pretty much at home with a single mother on welfare.

Starting point is 00:03:21 Okay. I mean, so it's just you. At that time, yeah, it's just me and my mom at that time. All right. What about your brother? So my brother's here. right? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:03:34 He's really my best friend. Oh, okay. So not Blood Brothers, but. Got it. Got it. Best friend. We end up meeting each other. That's a crazy story.

Starting point is 00:03:41 We end up meeting each other. I want to say in fifth grade. And I'll never forget this shit. This kid, Juan Robles, we're walking home from school and he jumps up and kicks me in the back. And I hit my eye on one of those newspaper machines. And he splits my eye open. And my brother, my best friend, he ends up jumping on him and starts wailing on this kid.

Starting point is 00:03:59 And from that point forward, we become best friends. Like, I lived at his house. He lived at my house. house and we become co-defendants later on in life while co-defense and everything nothing makes you closer than being a co-defendant we end up in state prison at the age of 16 um i get a two to six he gets a two to six and we end up in new york state prison well wait a minute how'd you let's go back like how i mean when did you start getting into trouble or start you know not trouble but just start doing criminal activity i mean i think we're doing criminal activity very young one of the

Starting point is 00:04:30 things I remember is we're robbing, we're all just robbing shit, right? We're going in like laundry mats, stealing all their chains, stealing everything like that. We break into some schools. We're going to this girls Christian school, and we end up breaking in there all the time. So we go through the window, and eventually I ended up getting a little bit more chubbier, and I couldn't fit through the window no more. They had bars on them, but these guys could. But I remember one time we go in this school, and they got a vending machine.

Starting point is 00:04:56 And we're like, man, how can we get in this vending machine? They got these softball bats for the girls' softball team. I'm like, don't worry, I got it, and I smashed the glass. We start stealing all the candy. But really the lick in there was inside of like their mezzhole from like them collecting money for like, you know, chips and whatever kids are buying, whatever the girls are buying. We end up stealing all that shit. So we started at a young age. And one thing that we used to do, and I'm not proud of this, but we used to think we were kind of tough, right?

Starting point is 00:05:22 And we would like fight your own men, hit them with snowballs, whatever. They'd get out of their cars and we'd be out there fighting your own men and really winning. There was one time, and I know he probably remembers this, but we called him the runner. We decide, hey, we're going to get this dude that's out jogging. Well, you know, back then you don't realize when you're 12 years old that this guy's working out. He's out jogging. He probably works out. And we threw something at him.

Starting point is 00:05:45 He turned around, and he was fighting us. He was doing really well against, like, four kids. How old are you when you say kids? I don't know, probably 13, 14. All right. And I think he was kind of winning a little bit. Right. And then we had this other kid that was with us, Rich, Schwarzenberg.

Starting point is 00:05:59 and Rich had some size on him, so Rich ends up grabbing the dude, and that's kind of like what saved us. Rich grabs him, he falls on the ground, and I remember us punching him and kicking him, and not proud of that stuff at all. But, yeah, we were just, you know, like where we came from, where we grew up, it's poverty, it's violence. That's all we really knew.

Starting point is 00:06:16 That's all we seen in that neighborhood. Right. I remember as a kid, there were a lot of Puerto Ricans in our neighborhood around the J Street area. I remember them, like, fighting each other out there, stabbing, hitting people with bats. Back then, people were hitting people with bats and sticks, and axe handles and motorcycle dudes with crow bars and chains and all that bullshit.

Starting point is 00:06:35 So I mean, is this because they're like little gangs or are the drugs involved? I mean, are they like? I just think it was just total chaos, just a neighborhood where there's just like it's total chaos. It's poverty at its best. When. And, you know, conflict. Like let's say, you know, even like the other night, you know, we go to one of our friends' birthday parties.

Starting point is 00:06:55 It's kind of like a hood ghetto birthday party inside of this place. and, you know, you got these chicks that are, you know, 35, 40 years old, and they're fighting each other. Like, for what? Ain't you a little too old for that? But this is all this culture knows. This is what they know. Right.

Starting point is 00:07:09 This is what they do. This is the world that we lived in. And, you know, I can always say, like, you know, prison changed me, right? It made me realize when I got out that, you know, there's a lot of other great things that you can do, things that we never even realize. Yeah, we're out here getting money and, you know, we started making money and selling drugs and then you never did anything.

Starting point is 00:07:27 You know, we just, you know, we buy clothes to go to the club, whatever. But then when you get out of prison, you start going places like Aruba, and you're coming down here to Florida, and you're like, wow, this is what life is really about. You know, you're going to Punta Kana. You're starting to see that, you know, all this stuff, and this is life. But we don't know any of that shit back then. You know, we're selling, you know, obviously selling, first we started selling powder, then eventually it becomes rock, and eventually I end up with a 40-year federal prison sentence out of it.

Starting point is 00:07:52 Well, so how does that start? How do you start? Because, I mean, you know, I was a kid. at one point and at no point did I ever think to myself, you know, maybe I should start selling rock. You know, like how does that happen? Like, who, do you see guys in the neighborhood doing it? Does someone approach you? Do you approach them? So I had this kid that lived the street away from us. I mean, eventually later on in life, we'd become friends, but his name was Booper and his uncle was a drug dealer. Right. But it was powder back now. I'm going to say it was in, what, 94, 95? This is

Starting point is 00:08:23 when we were watching Biggie Smalls on, you know, the big wooden TV and the junk. And the jukebox, we're putting that shit on. And his uncle lives with his grandmother. His mother's a prostitute. His aunt's a prostitute. And the uncle's just selling dope. Well, when I say dope where we're from it, it's cooking. And they're cooking it, whatever.

Starting point is 00:08:39 That's when they were free basing back then. And that was kind of my introduction to the drug world, right? I'm seeing all this. And in my young mind, I'm thinking, oh, this is cool. They're getting money. He's got, you know, the starter jackets, the Chicago Bull starter jacket. He's got, you know, he's got all kinds of shoes. But he's also a drug addict.

Starting point is 00:08:56 But he's pimping out his wife. He's pimping out his sister. As crazy as that sounds, he's pimping out his sister. They're living at their grandmother's house. And whenever we would walk into grandmother's house, she was an older Italian lady, and she was just one of the most, I mean, one of the most nastiest people you could ever imagine.

Starting point is 00:09:12 Get out of my house, you can. You know, sucker mother. And this is the grandmother. Yeah. And I'm like, that's because I actually had a good grandmother that worked at Kodak and cared about us. But when we walk in and this is his grandmother, I'm like, damn.

Starting point is 00:09:26 So that was my introduction to the drug world. And then I'm like, oh, in my young mind, I'm thinking, they're making all kinds of money. I want a starter jacket too. I want the Bo Jackson's that just came out. I'm 12, 13 years old. So my introduction to the drug game was at that point really selling, trying to sell fake drugs.

Starting point is 00:09:43 And then at that same time, there was another kid from our neighborhood. Fake drugs? Yeah, I was selling fake powder. I'd put flour in bags, whatever I could to make as crazy as this sounds, $20.30. I mean, that was something to me, right? Yeah. If I catch a lick for $20, $30, I rob them.

Starting point is 00:09:58 I'm gone because they're probably coming back. Like, hey, that wasn't real. When they go home and they try to cook it up, that was kind of my introduction. And there was another kid in our neighborhood who ends up becoming, you know, later on in life, like the big homie and prison and a kid named YB. So Yellow Boy. And that was also an introduction to the actual violence. I remember being in a car with him and he's going out to this house out in Greece,

Starting point is 00:10:20 apartment complex, English Village, and he's going out there to bag up some drugs. I'm like, we want to hang out with him. And I remember him shooting the gun out of the window. And the casing, it was a 22 or a 25, the casing hit me on the leg and burned my leg. And I'm like, wow, I thought he's shooting a gun out of the car for no reason. Probably just to act cool at the time. He's 18 years old.

Starting point is 00:10:39 I think we're 13, 14, whatever. And that was kind of my introduction to violence, personal violence, like being around them with guns and the stuff you're seeing, you know, NWA rapping and all of that type of stuff. So that was my introduction, but I always been a hustler. I always been like, hey, I need to make money. I need to survive. Like I said, single mother on welfare.

Starting point is 00:10:59 We were kind of poor, kind of dirty, but every school year, my grandmother would take care of us, make sure we had some sneakers and three or four outfits. We might get five shirts and three pairs of pants. And, you know, as I got older, I'm like, I don't want to live like this. So I started selling fake drugs, and the fake drugs end up becoming real drugs.

Starting point is 00:11:16 Right. And, I mean, where are you just selling this to other kids in the high school? No, I don't know. We're out on the corner. We're selling it to drug addicts. I don't like to use the word, you know, like, you know, the sea head or fiends. You know, back then that was my life. That's not my life now.

Starting point is 00:11:32 But, yeah, I remember catching licks on. Now, after I started selling fake drugs, that was so I can get real money in order to, one, obviously eat and buy like, you know, little clothes at the corner store, the Arab store sold clothes back then. But my intention was, hey, I need to be able to get an eight ball, right? And you think, damn, an eight ball. It's only back then, what, $100, $125? So when I get that first eight ball, that eight ball becomes what?

Starting point is 00:11:55 Another eight ball. Now you've got two eight balls. That becomes what, a quarter ounce. That quarter rounds becomes another quarter. And then you just move all the way up. You get up to a 62. In New York, that's what we know, 62 is what, two ounces, six grams? But your goal in your young mind was, I need a deuce.

Starting point is 00:12:09 And that deuce is, what, $2,000 back then, $2,200. And you're bagging up, what, $4,500 on it, I think, back then. And you know what? I try to sell it. How old are you, though? That's a lot of money for a fucking kid. that time, probably with powder, 14, 15 years old. But I mean, that's like, but I'm saying that's like a thousand bucks,

Starting point is 00:12:29 $2,000 for a little kid. I mean, that's a ton of money for a 14, 15 year old. But you know, it's crazy. You're thinking it's a ton of money, but we're blowing it. Right. We're blowing it like it's nothing. You know, you're buying starter jackets. We're going out to eat, buying sneakers, buying all the homies, clothes,

Starting point is 00:12:44 we're all poor. We're all a bunch of, you know, white kids and a couple black dudes with us, but we're all poor. We're all just trying to make it. We're all thinking that we're, man, we're going to be some big drug dealers someday. And really all we're doing is probably building a case. Eventually, I mean, I build that case and get a 40-year federal prison sentence. So what, so what happened?

Starting point is 00:13:02 How does that kind of, you know, blow up, like get bigger and bigger and bigger because. So what happens is this. I'm selling powder, right? And how we start now, I got my own money. Now we're hustling. And the kid Bupra I mentioned, right? I'm watching him, watching his uncle. He's selling bags.

Starting point is 00:13:20 I want to do this too. Right. Me and Bupa end up becoming partners. Because in my mind, I believe, hey, look, he's got the customers. His uncle, his uncle's a drug addict, so people would rather deal with us than deal with him. We become partners. Now, he lives one street away from me. I used to hop the fence to go to his house.

Starting point is 00:13:36 He'd hop the fence to come to mine. And then we have these people that are drug addicts that live across the street from me. I'm like, hey, man, we'll give you, you know, two dime bags a day to sell drugs out of your house. Right. And it was a smokehouse. So what a smokehouse is back then was people would come. come to his house, buy drugs, and smoke their drugs there. And sometimes, you know, people come spend four or five hundred hours. They get stuck. I mean, I've seen, it's crazy,

Starting point is 00:13:59 man, people's wives come looking for them. I've seen wives beat husbands up because they're so geeked out. They can't even stop their wives from hitting them and people selling their shit. I mean, I know. It's crazy. And, you know, I don't want to promote, like, I do regret that stuff now. I didn't regret it back then. It was either me or them. I mean, that was my mindset. You know, I want to make money. I want to, you know, have a better life. What was a better life to me? at 14 or 15 was we had food, we had clothes, and we could look cool, right? And I can help take care of my sister. So, so how long does, I mean, how long does that go on before? Because eventually you get like, well, what did you got? You guys got busted at one point, right?

Starting point is 00:14:37 Like, so whatever, we're selling drugs, whatever, but we're still young minded. And I had this Italian girlfriend that lived out in the suburbs. Her name was Maria. So I call Maria. And I'm like, hey, you know, where's Maria at? And her brother answers the phone. And he's like, oh, man, or no, her brother's friend answers the phone. And he's like, oh, man, we're banging her right now. I'm like, what? So I call my brother.

Starting point is 00:14:59 I'm like, yo, man, we got to go out here right now. And we end up going to the house. And we end up really, you know, we end up jumping on the kid that said that stuff, right? And my brother ends up hitting him with a piece of steel rebar in the head. I think a piece of his ear ends up getting, you know, it comes off somehow. I don't know how, but. It wasn't such a funny thing to say now. Yeah, well, yeah, and really, they weren't banging her.

Starting point is 00:15:23 No, he's just a douchebag. Yeah. Fucking kid. But, you know, obviously you're 16. You're in your emotions. You think you love this chick. So we go out there and we do that. And eventually we end up with a two to six.

Starting point is 00:15:33 I cop out to the assault second. But while that case is pending, while that case is pending, I'm selling drugs now, right? Still, out of this lady Kathy's house. Our son, Damien, we grew up with Damien. Kathy's a drug addict. She's like a kind of famous, like, drug dealer, drug addict in our neighborhood. I end up splitting away from Bupa.

Starting point is 00:15:55 She's like, we should be partners. She sees an opportunity with me because I have clientele. The same way that I see an opportunity with Bupa and his family. Now she sees it. I don't see it. I just see, oh, she's got a house, and I think she has a lot of customers, too. So I'm over there and we're hustling over there. We end up getting robbed at gunpoint, and this is how prison really starts for me.

Starting point is 00:16:14 We get robbed at gunpoint. You're still out on bond. You haven't gone back. You haven't gone to prison. Well, I was out on my own recognizant. Well, whatever. Yeah, but you haven't even gone to prison yet. You haven't been sentenced to.

Starting point is 00:16:24 I'm 16, right? Right. And I'm 16 while that case is pending. I think I turned 17. We get an armed robbery October 21st, 2000, 2000, um, 1995. What happens? Is the guys kicking the door or are they just walking? No, they kick in the door.

Starting point is 00:16:39 They rob us at gunpoint. I think that the kid booper set me up, but I call him. Like, yo, man. man, it just got robbed, bro, you, what's up? And he's like, nah, man, I didn't have nothing to do with that, whatever, right? So he ends up coming to the house. I end up shooting in the air. Bomb, bomb, bong, bong.

Starting point is 00:16:55 I shoot, I have a 25. I never forget. It's a four-shot. I shoot some shots in the air after they rob us and the kids are running down the street. Why don't you just call the police and ask them to come? You know what I'm saying? Because I'm not selling drugs. No, that's the police to come?

Starting point is 00:17:08 No, that's what I'm saying. No, that's what I'm saying. By shooting the, you might as, yeah. Yeah, every neighbor in the fucking place is, hey, some guy's shooting the gun. So anyway, I shoot at them kids that run out of the house. Then I called the kid Booper like, yo, I just got robbed. Yo, come over here. When he comes, I'm thinking, man, he set me up.

Starting point is 00:17:23 It's him. Him and his uncle set me up to get robbed. You know, that's when I started thinking. And me and him get into, you know, his physical altercation and blast table gets broke. Now people do call the police. You know, like you just talked about the gunshots, whatever. I don't know if it was a neighbor. I think it was his uncle.

Starting point is 00:17:39 He came with his uncle, his uncle Bobby, the guy that I was talking about who ends up, you know, getting a bad reputation. in the neighborhood for like numerous cases, whatever. So the police come. I lock everybody in the house. I'm like, nobody can leave. No one's leaving. Just be quiet.

Starting point is 00:17:56 Everyone get upstairs. Don't worry about nothing. So they end up surrounding the house. They got like people on the roof. Like this becomes a serious situation where I thought if we don't answer the door, the police will just leave. That's that young mind again, right? They're not leaving.

Starting point is 00:18:08 There's a gun in this house. They already know that we're selling drugs out of there probably. They're not leaving. So eventually they end up coming with a bullhorn. and like, hey, let these people out of the house, all of this stuff, right? So I'm like, okay, you guys go out first, you guys go out next. And once they get everybody rounded up, Kathy, you know, she passed away now, she tells them that I threw the drugs through a hole and it's a double house.

Starting point is 00:18:29 I threw the drugs and the gun through a hole into the next door apartment. So I think, hey, we're good through the attic. It's an empty house next door. No one lives there. So I throw the drugs and the gun through that hole in the wall. They go over there, they find everything because she told them where I threw it. Right. So now this is when I'm arrested.

Starting point is 00:18:46 There is no bail. I'm charged with criminal possession of a weapon in the, you know, third degree or second degree, criminal possession of controlled substance in the third, like four different felonies. And I'm like, oh, drug felonies where, you know, they're giving life back then in New York. The Rockefeller law is back then. So I'm all the way hit. So I'm in jail. I end up copping out to the assault second.

Starting point is 00:19:04 I get a two to six. And that's when I, you know, I never get out of jail after that night for another two years. So I get that two to six. I'm in prison for the two to six. my brother gets his two to six for the assault second, and that's what we copped out to. And eventually we end up in this new prison, Gawanda. So I go first.

Starting point is 00:19:22 I'm in prison first, and then one day he shows up like two weeks after I'm there. And I see him, I'm like, oh, and obviously I'm happy. We're here. We're here together. And two years to a 17-year-old is forever. Like, that shit hurt. And I remember us being in Gawanda,

Starting point is 00:19:35 and we're watching. He's only there like three weeks, right? He's a wild kid. So we're sitting on the bleachers, and he's got these pieces, is a long pieces of grass that he pulled up. And he's sticking them in these black dude's ears and shit. And they're like, and he's like, yeah, man, bugs are everywhere, you know?

Starting point is 00:19:49 And I'm like, yo, bro, I'm like, you know him? He's like, no, I don't know him. I'm like, yo, we can get, bro. I actually, you know, like, damn, man, we're in real prison. You know, these are grown-ass men. And you're sticking grass in this dude's ear. And he thinks it's like mosquitoes and shit hitting him. And I'm like, man, he's a wild dude.

Starting point is 00:20:04 Then there was another time we're leaving the gym. And he's eating a jolly rancher and he spits it on the CO, the back of his hair. And his CEO turns around. I was like, do it in my face, motherfucker. And the CO's like, I'm like, yo, if you do something to a cop in New York State prison, they're going to crush you. Yeah. And this, he's spitting jolly ranchers in their hair and laughing about it.

Starting point is 00:20:24 Like, we're not real. I mean, I think I am. But he's not really probably realizing at the time that, yo, this is a, you know, you're putting us in some dangerous situations over here. So we end up in Gwanda. What is your mom saying? What is, is she coming to see you? Oh, my mom used to come all the time, man.

Starting point is 00:20:40 even though we were poor, like I said, but my mom started working, and then my grandmother would drive her up there on visits. My mom used to come a lot. And, yeah, she used to crying all the time. Obviously, she's, you know, upset. She's like, man, you know, you're in prison. But eventually, we end up leaving Gawanda

Starting point is 00:20:57 and we go to Wyoming correctional facility right across from Antica, New York State. And we get into some shit over there where he gets in a disagreement with this dude from Rochester over a bat. He, like, loans a kid of basketball. magazine. And I don't remember exactly everything probably perfectly, but, I mean, this is what? Yeah, this is probably, what, 30 years ago? And he ends up beating his kid up in the, in the,

Starting point is 00:21:20 in the shower, in the bathroom, boom. But somehow he ends up, like, it gets broke up, I think. He slips and falls. I grabbed the kid. And they're like, oh, they jumped us. Now it's a keeping a real, which I felt like they felt like it was a white, black thing. Right. So they turned it into some big, big shit in there. And now the next thing I know, we're fighting like 15 black dudes in there. And I end up getting hit up a little bit. He gets hit up real bad. And I end up grabbing the, you remember the brooms they used to wash the showers

Starting point is 00:21:47 with? I grabbed that broom, and I'm just hitting these dudes with the broom. Bang, bang, bang, bang. I'm hitting people. I'm like, yo, we're trying to make it out of here. He got, he can fight. And trust me, it's harder. The only person ever dropped me in a fight was him. One time we had to fight as kids when we were in, and

Starting point is 00:22:03 it's the only person ever dropped me. Not that I'm the toughest dude on the planet, but I can fight a little bit. And he's only dude to ever dropped me. But we had mad people like jumping on us, hitting us, boom, boom. And I never forget. Remember, we're in upstate New York. Prison, prison cops, New York State

Starting point is 00:22:19 cops, viciously racist system. And really, man, the cop was like talking to me after he got me. He's like, you're all right? He acted like he was concerned. Right. But that's because I was white and they were black. I mean, that's just what it was. And I felt like, damn, man, he's do exactly like day. And this was on Christmas Eve.

Starting point is 00:22:35 We ended up in outside hospital. I get stitches. I think he gets some stitches. is I go to Attica that night. I don't remember exactly where he went. Eventually, he goes to the Cascati or Green, and I go to Attica. So I'm in Attica. I'll never forget going to Attica. And those cops over there that night, you know, after I'm stitched up, whatever.

Starting point is 00:22:54 And he's like, look, we do not fuck around over here. We don't play no games here. We get, we take things serious. He's like, we will shoot you. We will kill you. He was using the N-word. He called me a honky, a cracker. call me a bitch.

Starting point is 00:23:09 I'll never forget that that dude talking to me like that. He's like, we will kill your ass over here. You understand me? Like he was setting the tone that you don't play no games here, you don't put your hands on the cops.

Starting point is 00:23:18 How old are you at that time? Probably 18, 17, 18 years old at that time. And I'm like, I'm in Attica. Now I'm thinking, I'm from this area, right? I'm 30 minutes away from there. I'm thinking, man, Attica riots. I'm like, wow, man, I'm in Attica.

Starting point is 00:23:32 And all bullshit aside, I'm scared. But they put me in Key Block, right? Because obviously we get shots, We get rode up, whatever. I forgot, they called them over there. I'm so used to federal prison. What's key block? Keep lock is you're locked in this cell.

Starting point is 00:23:43 You're not coming out of this cell. Oh, keep lock. And they're like, they're bars back then, you know? Oh, wow. I've never been to a prison where they're actually bars. They're always windows. Yeah, they're bars. So, I mean, you can talk to people.

Starting point is 00:23:56 People are putting mirrors over there to talk to. It's like, like them old school movies. And I'm like, damn, man, I'm in a real prison, what real grown-ass men that are, and I'm thinking, you know, I was in a medium. I was, you know, it's all right. It's prison. But, yeah. This shit's for real over here.

Starting point is 00:24:08 I'm thinking, these dudes are killers, and you're thinking, all the R, these dudes are R&P people, young dudes. I mean, I was always a big kid, but I was still like a little bit scared, a little bit nervous.

Starting point is 00:24:18 I was grateful that, oh, you know, I can say it now, I was grateful that I was keep locked that I wasn't around these dudes. I wasn't coming out with these guys. I'm good. Eventually they end up transferring me

Starting point is 00:24:27 to Comstock, great metal correction facility. So I think I stayed 97 days in Ag. I remember, I got a pretty good memory. And I ended up going to Comstock. Now when I get to Comstock, I've acclimated,

Starting point is 00:24:37 to the prison bars and the prison attica, I'm like, okay, I'm good. I go to Comstock, Great Metal, dangerous, dangerous place back then. But now I'm like, this is it. You know, you just kind of like, this is your environment now. So I'm over there in Great Metal, and I just start

Starting point is 00:24:53 living my life. I'm in prison. With a two to six, I'm in a maximum security prison. And eventually a year later, I make my first parole board, and I go home. And you're on parole. How long are you on parole? I had a two to six, so I had four more years of parole.

Starting point is 00:25:08 Okay. I don't know how it works. I mean, you know, at parole, and even the state here doesn't at parole. But I catch a violation.

Starting point is 00:25:14 I end up catching a violation. I do another 22 months. What was the violation for? It was over that, this, remember that kid, I talked about Damien, his mom, Kathy. We went to DMX concert,

Starting point is 00:25:25 and we ended up seeing them. And I point a gun at him. And he calls, and now this is a kid that was, you know, he's a straight guy and all this stuff. And eventually he later ends up wearing, you know,

Starting point is 00:25:35 wire on people or whatever. he calls the police and calls my parole officer and he comes and testifies on me at the parole hearing all of that stuff says I pulled a gun out on him and hold on now hold on now he ends up he ends up remember that girl Maria yeah he ends up with Maria that's his girl so we have a beef right that was my boy

Starting point is 00:25:54 supposed to be my friend he ends up with my girl who I thought was the love of my life at 16 that I went and did a two to six for when I go do the two to six he ends up with my girl all them years and then that's what happens you know yeah And then karma's a real mother, right? He's serving 25 years right now if we're killing a dude that was a drug addict. He's got about 17 in on it, I think, probably 17, 18, and on that 25 years.

Starting point is 00:26:18 So. So you go to a, you go to the concert, you point a gun, you get your parole officer, yanks your parole, you're back in. You're a violation. Where do you go? I go right back to Comstock to the same exact cell that I went home from. And they give me my, you know, when you. leave, they take your ID. And I used to use that ID, and I used to chip the paint off my wall when I was laying in my bed. I don't know why. They give me back that same idea with the little

Starting point is 00:26:43 chip paints all inside of it. I could not believe that they still had that ID. We've been waiting for you. Yeah. And yeah, it's like it's a revolving door, right? They were waiting for me. I go back to Comstock to another 22 months, 22 months, 12 days I did on that violation. Get out of New York State prison. Your viewers are like, oh, this dude's a real piece of shit, probably, but I mean, I'm not that person anymore. I get out. I think I'm home 15 months and I catch the federal case. So, well, okay, so what happens when, when do you catch the federal head? How old are you?

Starting point is 00:27:13 Wait, so you're, you're going to be 20, 21? And I was 20. When I caught the federal case, I think I was 23. Okay. So, so. Maybe 20, I just turned 24, I think, maybe. So you get out, you just go back to the same thing. You didn't, you didn't think you weren't old and mature enough.

Starting point is 00:27:29 Oh, no, no, no. I did get out. And I'm like, I'm going to go get a job and I get this job. And, um, it's at a factory. and I'm like, man, this can't be my life. And I'm hitting, you know, punch press. And they blame me for breaking this machine, right? Like something to happen to the machine.

Starting point is 00:27:44 But really, I didn't break the machine. Someone else got on the machine, and they broke it. So they fire me. And when they fire me, I take my little check I get, and I go buy a quarter-round's. I'm like, I'm done. I'm not working a job. I'm going to do what I know how to do. Buy a quarter-round.

Starting point is 00:27:57 And now it's no longer powder. This is when I get into the rock. Yeah, I get into the rock game, right? and I go buy a quarter rounds, and then it was all the way to the moon after that. I thought I was that due. I was home 14, 15 months and catch a 40-year federal prison sentence. Is it just you doing that? Yeah, just you, or do you get other people are underneath you?

Starting point is 00:28:18 Are you selling it out of? Oh, no, yeah. I mean, we had a whole team. I mean, I built a team. And I'm not some things I won't say, but not jamming him up, but, I mean, it's over. It's actually what it's over. But no, yeah. I mean, we become partners, whatever.

Starting point is 00:28:31 And, you know, we start, you know, we got other people working for us. I mean, and then we kind of separate. He goes his way. I go my way. And yeah, I had, I had all kinds of people that worked for me. Well, how does that, like, I mean, what kind of money are you making and how long does that last? And what makes that, what turns that over?

Starting point is 00:28:49 This is what it becomes, right? I stopped. I got older, so obviously I got a little more intelligent. I wasn't renting houses from drug addicts no more. I see a for rent sign. I call the landlord. Hey, what's up? Man, want to rent this place.

Starting point is 00:29:00 and you know you go over there you rent the place you can't get the gas and electric they weren't even given out leases back then we'd go to uh office depot whatever it was back then we'd get a lease sign the lease and the lease take it to the gas electric and let's get the electric turned on go to the salvation army by a couch a couple beds and unfortunately in you know this world that we lived in there's a there was a lot of young dudes that didn't have nothing and they're like all they know is hey i want to sell drugs so i was the leader someone has to be the thinker right and these guys are all like dudes that don't have nothing. They don't have the mentality to be leaders. And they end up sitting in the house. It's like, yo, this is what they do. And what we would do back then is we would buy a deuce,

Starting point is 00:29:39 right? Let's say a deuce was $2,200 back then. I want to say you bagged up like $44, $4,500, whatever, 4,600. And what we would do is say, hey, look, you get half the profit. I get half the profit. But you take all the plays. That means if someone comes and says, hey, I want $12 for $100, that $20 comes out of your pocket, not mine. So let's say the profit was 2,400, you know, hypothetically. It was somewhere around there. You get 1,200, I get 1,200. But I always get my 1,200. So if you only come back with 2 grand, I get my 12, you get 800. And these dudes used to fight over shifts. They might sell a deuce in a shift, an 8-hour shift. And some of the kids are like, now I'm here, I'm staying here for six shifts. And they started fighting each other. So when they started fighting each other, we started getting

Starting point is 00:30:21 different houses. And really how you end up getting these houses going, you would drive around the neighborhood, I'd probably take an eight ball and make fake, not make fake bags, make sample bags. And I'd be giving out samples. Hey, yo, we're over here at 541 Lyle Avenue. That was one of the houses that got hit. You're at 445 Lyle Ave. Here you go. Boom, here's a sample. And in this game, let's keep it real, man, back then, people would rather deal with you if you were white. They weren't afraid. These are white drug addicts coming from the suburbs, a lot of them. And of course, there's people in the hood getting high too. But they would rather come to us because we were white and they felt safer. That's what it was. So I don't know racial stuff, that's what it was. So they would

Starting point is 00:30:58 deal with us. And we always had a good product and we always had big bags. You know, some dudes might buy a deuce and bag up 6,000 and their bags are, people don't want that. And they're like, you mean, I made three grand off my dues. Yeah, but it took you a week to sell your dues. Right. I sold mine in one day. I only made two grand, but I sold mine in one day. And everyone's coming. Are people get, are these guys getting busted or are the houses getting rated? Oh, no. I mean. Just go smooth for 18 months? people get picked off. Eventually they start hitting the houses. Who's they? The police, Rochester Police Department. They end up putting this team together

Starting point is 00:31:29 called Granite. Raider Rochester Air and Narcotics Enforcement team. And they started, you know, busting people. And I'm like, damn, they got so and so and so over there. I'm like, wow, that's crazy. Eventually, they start hitting our houses. I remember we had a house on Lyle Avenue, that 445 Lyle, they knocked it down now. They hit that Joker with a tank, but one of them long bars on it, the metal plate. I remember the door flew across the street. And they're like, And that was another one where they didn't come in. It was officer awareness, whatever. They didn't come in.

Starting point is 00:31:56 They were like, hey, you need to come out of the house with your hands up. I wasn't in the house. But they called me like, hey, man, the police are here. And they end up searching the house. They find like $500 worth the bags. They find a gun in the house, 22 rifle, which eventually I end up getting time for. They find a 22 rifle in that house. And you know what, man, it was like two ounces bagged up that they never found.

Starting point is 00:32:15 So when they didn't find it, those dudes go to jail that night. They get out the next morning. They're like, oh, I don't think they found it. Let's go in the house. We go back in the house and get that. the other two ounces out. And we're like, who cares? It's nothing. We don't, we don't know that they're building a conspiracy case on us. Are you, are you worried? Are you thinking, like, this is, they're kind of, they're going to eventually, they're going to grab me. Some of these guys are

Starting point is 00:32:35 going to talk to the police. They're going to put it together. I'm not worried at all, because I'm thinking, in my mind, I wasn't in the house. Right. You didn't catch me with nothing. I never would think the feds are going to arrest me eventually. I think it's just the state police. I think federal courts for, you know, mob guys and, you know, you know, scarface. Yeah, like, Yeah. It's not for us. I mean, we're petty-ass drug dealers. For real, that's what I'm thinking. But they are building a case. And then we get another house down the street at 541 Lyle Avenue. They hit that house. They find a gun in there. They find drugs in there. But yes, people are signing statements, but I don't know this till later on down the room. Right. So in these houses, right? And, you know, eventually I'll talk about this later. Like, we do a lot of stuff in the community now. We got a reentry house for men. Two of them. We got one starting for women.

Starting point is 00:33:16 But we would honestly, man, and I hate saying this shit, but we would take women off the street. These are, these are, these are, prostitutes that got nowhere to live. They're looking for a smokehouse to go get high and get and stay warm in the wintertime. So I end up getting the one chick Kathy and I'm like, yo, you're going to rent these apartments. Definitely. So my name's not on it. We got Kathy rent in the apartment. She is a prostitute. But what does the prostitute do? She brings in another prostitutes that got nowhere to live, right? So all the prostitutes get a room. This room's for a little bit. This room's for Kathy. This room over here is for Sarah. And what do they do? They catch licks. And when we say catch licks, they've got a white dude that pulls up and he wants to party with him and

Starting point is 00:33:52 he's got $2,000. And they got a room. Now they got a room. They're partying with her. They're doing whatever they're doing. And he doesn't leave. He stays there until his $2,000 is gone. And then Little Bits got someone in the back room too.

Starting point is 00:34:04 And he's there until his $1,000 is gone. And they're working them. You know, these are street girls. They're working them. They're stealing their credit cards. They're, you know, they're taking them, oh, let's go to the ATM back then. I think you can only get $500 out of the ATM back then, right? So they'll take them to the ATM, get, you know, they already spent their two grand.

Starting point is 00:34:21 Let's go to ATM. and they got another 500. And, you know, that's how we were really getting money because the prostitutes were bringing in the clients. And now if they catch you for a lick for $2,000, they can get high all night long. They don't have to go back on the street. They don't have to take chances of getting robbed or getting hurt.

Starting point is 00:34:35 And in our neighborhood, you know, there's people that go around, beat up prostitutes, shoot them with BB guns. I mean, there's, you know, you get young kids that just, this is the life. Right. This is the life that they're living. You know, I was all the way immersed in this drug trade. Eventually, they're building a case. I think that I'm a tough guy

Starting point is 00:34:53 and I got money and what are the police going to do? Police ain't doing shit to me. I'm not the one in the house. I'm not getting caught. But the whole time, you know, these prostitutes are writing statements. They're building a case. You know, they're putting these forms together

Starting point is 00:35:06 every time they pull me over. I mean, they're pulling me over like crazy. And I don't realize, hey, they're building this case. And then I did have a home improvement company going at the time. I had a pizza shop going. I'm taking my money and trying to do other things. And then I start thinking, man, I don't really want to do this no more.

Starting point is 00:35:23 I really want to get out. But the money is pulling you, right? And the power, you have power. When you're a drug dealer and you're that dude and look, bro, I mean, it's obvious I'm white. I'm that dude in our neighborhood. And it goes to my head. I think, man, I'm white. And I'm doing this.

Starting point is 00:35:36 And most of my team is all black dudes. And I'm the balls. Yeah, it's a good feeling. When you're the guy, everybody's asking you what to do and call the shot, it's a great feeling. Yeah. But it's really not in the end. It's not, you know. I got this kid, Donald Molinari.

Starting point is 00:35:50 when we were younger, like I looked up to him in our neighborhood. He had a band. He had, you know, I remember his drum set, mess with the best you die like the rest. And I was like, he's a cool ass dude, you know, to me. He's got the BMX, you know, bikes. He's got the GT performers. He's out stealing bikes from all the rich white kids out in the suburbs.

Starting point is 00:36:06 And, you know, he's selling us bikes for $20. I'm like, mom, I need $20 to get a bike. And my mom's like, all right. So I'm buying, you know, a $200 bike that we used to love with mags on it and pegs on it for, you know, $20. The only way we could ever have a bike where we grew. grew up. So I think, hey, this dude, this dude's that dude. He's a cool ass kid, you know. Eventually he becomes a drug addict. He's smoking. He's smoking. Him and his dad are smoking.

Starting point is 00:36:30 We used to use his dad to drive us around. We didn't have a license 14, 15 years old. We give his dad two bags. Drive us around or rent it back then, you know, big thing was renting cars from drug addicts. For $20, they'll rent you their car. Dude, we're out hitting people's knocking garbage cans down with cars that we rented, like driving right through him, boom, boom, garbage cans flying all over the place. We're bumper car in it. I remember the old black dude, we got his, we rented his car, and we're like, man, let's see what this thing.

Starting point is 00:36:56 His tires were so bald, but we don't know nothing about cars. When you pull off, it's like, ah! So I remember being at the stop sign and hitting the gas, like, putting it in drive, and his transmission fell out of the car, right? Boom. And I remember like, yo, man, your car's over here on Otis Street, bro. Otis and Burroughs. And he's like, yo, my transmission's gone when he came back.

Starting point is 00:37:14 And I'm like, he's like, man, my car. That's all I have. I mean, we're joking, you know, laughing about it now. It's really not funny. I mean, this dude was a drug addict, and we took advantage of him, you know what I mean? But I remember dropping his transmission. So, yeah, I mean, we did all of that bull crap, looked up to that kid. And eventually, I see him walking down the street.

Starting point is 00:37:31 This is after you've got these houses going. After I got these houses going. And I see him, and I'm like, I pull over. And it's raining out. I think it was raining. And he's like, Chad, man, I need some help, man. And it's Donnie. And I'm like, what's up, man?

Starting point is 00:37:42 And he's like, man, you know, I'm going to rehab tomorrow. I need something to eat, man. My mom won't let me in the house. Help me, man. I got a hotel. Will you drive me to the hotel? I'm like, yeah, I'll take you to the hotel. But first I take them to this place called Mark's restaurant on Monroe Avenue.

Starting point is 00:37:54 And we're talking. I'm like, damn, bro, you got to get your life together. I've always been kind of like this dude, even though I was a drug dealer that cared about people, right? Even now. Like I, sometimes my brother, like, we were talking about last night.

Starting point is 00:38:04 People get on me. Like, I actually care about people. Like, yo, man, why, you know, you're wasting your time, whatever. So I'm like, man, I'm going to help you out, whatever. Buy him some food. I'm like, man, you see them cars going by. I'm like, man, I'm 23 maybe at the time, 24, somewhere around there. And he's like, man, I'm 30, whatever, however old he was.

Starting point is 00:38:21 He was older than me. I was like, man, I'm going to be like, yo, I'm going to change. I'm going to stop getting high. When you're going to be like, yo, I'm going to change. I'm going to stop getting high. He was telling me that he got kicked out of his mom because he stole their TV. And I always liked his mom. I thought his mom was a good person, what, you know, just ended up in a bad situation

Starting point is 00:38:34 with her kid and her ex-husband. And I'm just like, oh, man, that's your life, bro. That's your life. It's just passing by. job. I'm like, yeah, man, I gave him my business card. I was doing tear off's roof. So yeah, I can always use people, right? But I don't think this kid's ever going to call me. He calls me. He calls me when he gets out of rehab. He goes to rehab, calls me. Eventually, I find out he left rehab early and all that stuff. He calls me and he's like, hey, man, I'm out. I'm out. I need, you know, I need help

Starting point is 00:39:02 a job. So I give him a job. He's living with these people that were friends with his dad. His dad ended up dying. So he's living with his dad's old friends that also get high. And he's like, man, the environment's horrible for me. Can you help me out? I'm like, bro, what do you want to do? He's I got to stay at your house. I don't know why I even considered this shit. I'm like, well, I got a refinished basement. You can go down here. I'm thinking I need them for work, tear-offs, you know?

Starting point is 00:39:20 It's going to benefit me. And I'm going to help him out. So I let him come stay with me for like a month. And he's working, he's doing good. And eventually he robs me. So he ends up stealing. Robbs you of what? He steals all the rock out of the, he doesn't show up for work one day.

Starting point is 00:39:34 Right. My wife calls and says, hey, Donnie just came here and he wants to know where the job is at. And he wanted some change so he could catch the bus to the job. I'm like, oh, yeah, he must be in high. she's like so I gave him some change and then he left but really he stole a bunch of shit out of my house he never came to the job I'm like hey did he show up we're doing a tear off I need I kind of need the kid and she's she's I'm like hey he never showed up did he'd come back there she's like

Starting point is 00:39:55 no I didn't come back whatever and that's what he did he robbed me so now he goes to the cops we're looking for him me and my brother a couple people were looking for him and he's got this this other chick um she's a Italian girl Maria not that Maria he's got her out there working the street. They're getting high together, right? So he's got her out there working, and we see him. But he's got this black kid with him who he probably fronted some drugs from. And the black kid's sitting in the car with him.

Starting point is 00:40:22 We see her. So I get out of the car. We both do. And I'm like, oh, where's Donnie at? And I'm like, dude, remember, I'm not a good person at this time. Like, I'm a drug dealer. I'm in the street. I'm right.

Starting point is 00:40:33 Ripped you off. Yeah, so I act like I'm going to crack the chick. I'm not. But I did act like that, right? I shouldn't say that stuff on her, but it is what it is. It's the truth. he sees us. He gets out with the black dude because he feels like he's got power because he's got this black kid with him. And the black kid's like, yo, what's up? And I end up, I hit the black kid. I dropped. Remember I dropped him, DJ? I dropped him. Boom. Right on line. I just dropped him. Boom.

Starting point is 00:40:53 I was all that's your boy and he starts running so we're chasing him he gets in the car he tries to run us over his girl jumps in the car they leave the black kid in the street they don't even help him and they pull off so now i'm getting a hold of him through his mom i'm calling his mom you better tell him if i find him you know he owes me he calls the police says look i can get chad if you give me the money to pay back what i stole i can get him and i don't know any of this until after i get my discovery i'm in federal court so he ends up um getting hold of cops they give them money he calls me he says hey man i got you know thousand dollars whatever you had you know i got a thousand dollars for you right now if you can meet me at the mall i remember it was a snowstorm i'm like damn i really don't want to go to the

Starting point is 00:41:32 mall but for a thousand dollars i'm going right i leave my mom's house i leave my wife there my mom lived close to the mall i drive down there he's got a a wire on whatever and he starts talking to me he's like oh what happened on uh four forty five loud they hit the house i'm like yeah man they hit the house this is how they're going to tie me to the house because I wasn't there. That's how they tied me to it through the conspiracy. And I'm like, I'm telling Donald Molinarie, I'm like, yeah, man, they hit the house, whatever. And he's like, yo, did they arrest E? And I'm like, yeah, they arrested E. They arrested D. Because what did they find? I'm like, oh, they only found like a quarter, but they missed,

Starting point is 00:42:04 they missed two ounces. This is on the tape. Yeah, yeah. You're barrying yourself. I said, I've done it. I'm like, they missed two hours. We went in there and got it. You know, we found it. You know, even though we had this beef, I'm killing the beef for the $1,000. And then when I ended up getting the discovery, I was taking too long to get there. And he's on the recording saying, come on, you fucking piece of shit. Come on, you bit. He's like talking to me, what he's not talking to. He's like, I hope this piece of shit shows up soon.

Starting point is 00:42:30 Dude, I ended up hearing that tape later on. I was like, wow, what a real scumb bag. That's what I was thinking after I read the transcripts and heard the tape. So pretty much, yeah, he lines me up. He's their guy. I think he met with me a second time, Warwire, asking me more questions. And at first, I'm like, yo, get into the car. He's like, nah, I'm not getting in the car, man.

Starting point is 00:42:48 I'm scared. And I'm like, man, I'm not going to do nothing. He's like, no, you're going to kill me. I'm like, bro, I'm not going to kill you. And they use that tape at the detention area, but they didn't put the part on there where I'm like, no, I'm not going to kill you. That's in the transcript. It's on the tape.

Starting point is 00:42:59 But they only introduced to them or look, you know, witness are afraid of this guy. He's dangerous. They didn't put the part around. I'm like, nah. And that's how they got their wiretap for my phone also because of him with that. They didn't put the part in there. I'm like, I'm not going to kill you. they put the part in there where he's like,

Starting point is 00:43:13 yo, don't kill me to say, hey, witnesses are afraid of him, confidential informant, number one, there was four confidential informants. So another one was my cousin. And eventually I figured that out, this kid Peter Thousand, he wears a wire on me too. And he's like,

Starting point is 00:43:30 yo, I got someone he needs a quarter of brick. So he comes there, bro, we ain't selling no quarter bricks right now. We're not on that level. And I end up getting these tapes later on. And I'm like, yo, does he got a gun? Does he got the money on him? I'm like, yo, I'm going to rob him, but it was a cop. I'm like, I'm going to rob him.

Starting point is 00:43:43 This was on Sherman Street. I'm like, yo, tell him to come behind the house. He's like, nah, he don't want to come behind the house. I'm like, no, I'm going to rob him, bro. Does he got a gun or anything? He's like, nah, man, I don't know if you should do that, man. I don't know if he's got a gun. I think he might.

Starting point is 00:43:55 I'm like, damn. But imagine if I would try to rob the cop. They would have killed me. I'd have been dead. He'd shot me in the head. I was going to rob him with a BB gun. He had a real gun. That's the street mentality.

Starting point is 00:44:06 Right. You don't even understand life. but I was definitely going to rob him when he was a cop. And, you know, that didn't work out. But Peter ends up robbing some black chick's car with her kid in the car. So they end up charging him with kidnap. She's at the gas station. He jumps in and drives away with her kids in the car.

Starting point is 00:44:22 I think there were two kids. He ended up getting 25 years, man. And he recently got out. And he called, someone gave him our number. He didn't realize who he was calling. He said, hey, man, my name's Peter 1,000. I'm looking for some housing. I know you got a reentry house.

Starting point is 00:44:36 And I said, Peter. This is Chad. Remember I called you? I would, you should have, you should have met him when he got there. I'm like, hey, bro. How's it going? Oh, hey, Pete, what's up? Yeah, you're in room number two.

Starting point is 00:44:47 I told him, I said, Peter, it's Chad. I was like, we don't have no bed for you, Peter. He's like, oh, my God, bro, I'm sorry. And he hung up the phone. Never talking about him. I called my brother. I called my brother. I called my brother said, man, you ain't going to believe who just called me, man.

Starting point is 00:44:59 Peter 1,000 just called me for housing. I mean, we got conflict and interest. You're holding resentment. You didn't take R-Dap. No, no. But, you know, really not even holding resentment. It was just like, it just wouldn't work out. Like even with Donald, Donnie Mullinary, like, dude, when I seen him, I get out of prison and see him.

Starting point is 00:45:19 You know, remember, I just did 17 years, five months, and 21 days. I end up getting out because of the first step back, all of that stuff, right? And we can get into that later. But I see him at a gas station. And he's like, hey, Chad, man, well, I'm so sorry for what I did. Now, remember, when I went to trial, he came and testified at the trial and everything. Yeah. Obviously, they cleaned them up, gave him clothes.

Starting point is 00:45:39 And I see him at the gas station. He starts apologizing to me. And I'm with Jen, who's my wife now, who was my girlfriend when I went to jail, who later became my wife, who I married while I was in prison. And we got a divorce, whatever, and we got remarried when I got out. And I'm like, remember Jen? Remember how, you know, you were living at my house? And there's Jen.

Starting point is 00:45:58 And I said, look, and at that time, I think I had, I forgot, I had a nice vehicle. I was, I'm doing good. and he's like, and I'm like, look at you, man, and look at me. You're still getting high, bro. You're out here asking people for dollar bills at the gas station. I'm like, wow. And I just, you know, I think I was nasty to him when you talk about resentment. But a year later, I see him in front of this house.

Starting point is 00:46:18 His trucks broke down. I pull over. Like, what's up, man? And the same story. Don't kill me, man. I'm like, what do you got a wire on? Yeah, I was going to say. I'm like, man, I know how this goes.

Starting point is 00:46:27 I'm saying, can he kill you, man. I'm saying I don't do nothing to you, man. You want to do an interview, man, on the YouTube channel. you want to talk man you need a ride and at that point I was my life did change I started you know trying to my life changed in prison for real yeah um eventually later on down the road

Starting point is 00:46:41 but I still had resentment when I first got out and it's easy to get back into that street mentality that tough guy stuff right it's easy to get it back involved in that when I walked out of prison I didn't want when Westcham first took flight in 1996 the vibes were a bit different people thought denim on denim was peak fashion inline skates were everywhere and two out of three women rocked the Rachel

Starting point is 00:47:00 while those things stayed in the 90s one thing that hasn't is that fuzzy feeling you get when WestJet welcomes you on board. Here's to WestJetting since 96. Travel back in time with us and actually travel with us at westjet.com slash 30 years. Live that life no more. I didn't want to be a tough guy no more. I didn't want to be a drug dealer no more. I didn't want to go to prison no more.

Starting point is 00:47:20 I felt like I did change my life. But yeah, when you see them and you see your old friends, you're like, but you're like, nah, do the right thing. You're not 24 no more. I don't think that. Yeah, by the way, I don't. Listen, and everybody that cooperated against me, I've talked on the phone with them. I've gone to dinner with them.

Starting point is 00:47:39 I've been cool with them. I've every single one of them. I've been, and I never was angry with them. I was like, but that was in prison. I was like, I got to a point was like, well, what am I, you know, why would I be angry? Like, you don't owe me nothing. You got two kids. You got a kid.

Starting point is 00:47:54 Like, you don't owe me anything. You see what I'm saying? Like, so when I got out and they would be standoff like, hey, man, what's up? My baby. Hey, how's it going? my buddy Travis, gone to dinner with him several times, I actually feel bad for him. Like, he's still, like, he drinks.

Starting point is 00:48:07 He's a, he's, his life's like, it's not good, you know? Like, he's, he lost his, he can't drive. He's paying somebody to drive him around to run his business. And it's like, like, you got, I know, it's like you got, fucking, you know, like you've got, he had major problems. And he didn't owe me nothing, you know, like, I get it. So long story short, I end up interviewing him on the channel and Barry the Hatchet kind of. And I tell him, and I'm mad at you, man, you didn't put me in prison.

Starting point is 00:48:33 You know, I blamed all these people for putting me in prison at one time. No, you put you in prison. I put you in prison. I made the decision to sell drugs. I made the decision to be a rock dealer in our neighborhood. I made the decision to pollute the community. I made the decision to, you know, take these, you know, these women that were prostitutes and take advantage of them as far as their addiction, selling them drugs and manipulating them.

Starting point is 00:48:53 I was a piece of shit. Right. Straight up. That's who I was a piece of shift. Who you talking to? I know. Eventually, you know, I can't. I'm not judging. And, you know, even now, like, I ride through the neighborhood.

Starting point is 00:49:04 He can tell you, I give out money all the time to people. I give out food. I help people. And I'm like, and I don't know why I do it. I drive through there and I'm like, damn, man, why? Every time I leave there, I go home to where I live now out in the suburbs, nice home, family, and I get depressed. So I don't know why I drive through there, but it's like I have to go there. I have to see this. There's people I have to help these people. And it just, it destroys me mentally for a day or two. and then I'm stay away from there for two, three weeks,

Starting point is 00:49:30 and then I'm back over there, driving through the neighborhood. Like, damn. This is the neighborhood that I destroy. Yeah. Well, let me ask you. So your buddies, they got you on the wire. You separate from him. How long before the cops come and they get you?

Starting point is 00:49:46 Like, they knock on the door or do they come and kick in? Because you're out on, oh, no, you're not out. I'm sorry. This is before. Sorry, how long before they come get you? So, yeah, I'm not out. I don't, I'm just free. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:49:56 So probably, I think. about 45 days after our last conversation on that wire, they come get me. They end up using him to get the wiretap. The wiretaps only on for like 10 days. But there's another kid that was part of our team. His name was Wodey, right? He ended up having a kid with my sister. As crazy as this is, he just died about six months ago, overdose on pha-old.

Starting point is 00:50:16 Kid we would never think. He was tried to act like, you know, he was, he'd shoot you in a minute. He was, he was that, he would shoot you. He was just bad. So things went bad for us with him where, you know, he had bags. He was tapping the bags. I ended up catching them tapping. Customers are calling, oh, man, his dude was tapping the bags.

Starting point is 00:50:31 So me and him go over there, and he was kind of a heavy set kid. And we get into a little fight in the bathroom. I hit him, and he falls in the bathtub. He's so big that he can't get out of the tub. Like, he fit, like, right in the tub. And he's so big, he can't get out of the tub. So I'm just in there, I'm kind of like hammering this kid in the tub. Boom, boom, boom.

Starting point is 00:50:46 Then his boy's like, this Puerto Rican kid, I forgot his name, man. And Puerto Rican kid's like, no, I'm trying to get a fair one with you. You jump down, Wodey. So I'm like, like I told you, I can fight a little bit. So I'm like, all right, we're going to go ahead and get the, you know, get the fair one. So we're out there. We're working. I destroyed this kid.

Starting point is 00:51:03 Like his eye is all swelled up. What was his name, DJ? Lucky. Yep, lucky. So I end up, I end up beating the brakes off this kid. I mean, he's beat up. His man's over there, act like he's tough. He's got a, I think he had a gun on him.

Starting point is 00:51:15 And he's like, yo, man, he wants a round two. I'm like, man, he don't want a round two. Like, his shit's swelled up. They leave. They come back. Yo, he wants a round two. So I'm like, man, he don't want a round two. He's like, yeah, he does.

Starting point is 00:51:24 So we did the round two. And I demolished him again. So now I got beef with Wodey. I got beef with the kid Lucky. Do these guys also go to the cops? No, they don't go to the cops. You know what? But before that, I messed this part up.

Starting point is 00:51:41 So before that, me and Wodee, we end up in a shootout, right? Across the street from my mother's house. These kids rob us, so we go back and shoot up their house. when they rob woody, they got them on Dewey Avenue. They go in this house and we're bubbling, man. I mean, we're doing big numbers out of this house. They go in there and they rob them. They make them all get naked and they rob them.

Starting point is 00:52:02 They say, call the big man, call Chad. I'm at my mother's house cooking. I'm making some jail food, rice with the pepperoni chopped up in it. My family likes that stuff. I introduced that. That was a New York State prison, you know, rice and beans with the pepperoni in there, onions, peppers. And they call and they're like, oh, man, they want you to,

Starting point is 00:52:18 we're out. I'm like, I was just there. an hour ago. You're out already? You sold $4,000 worth of bags? I'm like, nah, I had a funny feeling. So I had this cousin, he died recently. He was mentally slow, right? Teddy, he's like six foot five, 350 pounds. I'm like, Teddy, man, take this over there for me. He's like my runner, so he walks his dog or whatever he goes over there, ties his dog up outside, goes in the house. They take him in at gunpoint. Now, he's a big old kid and big glasses and hair, beard, and he's just like, and they rob him. They're like, take off your clothes.

Starting point is 00:52:50 Where's Chad at? Take off your clothes. He's like, I'm not taking off my... He had the mentality of like a 13-year-old kid. Right. So he's embarrassed. Like, he's not taking off his clothes. He don't realize that these guys got him at gunpoint.

Starting point is 00:52:59 He starts getting crazy and screaming. They leave. They run out of the house. He scared them. Right. So, you know, whatever they around. So we go back and we shoot up their house. We find out who they are.

Starting point is 00:53:10 They only live like two blocks down the street. We shoot up their house. So they come back and shoot up the house on Sherman. So my boy, Dee's like, yo, and Dee's dead. Dee ended up getting murdered. He got murdered. all the kids that were on my team. These were very close people to us.

Starting point is 00:53:24 He's like, yo, them dudes are outside. So he slams the door. I remember going upstairs with Wodey. Wodey's standing next to me. And he's like, yo, they're out front. So I opened the window. And I felt the glass hit me in the face. Before I even heard the gunshot, it's just crazy.

Starting point is 00:53:38 Like the glass hit me. Trust me, the glass hit me before I heard the gunshot. Next thing I know, he's on the ground. He had this Jesus tattoo on his arm. They shot him in Jesus right between the eyes and the arm. and it knocked them down. So I grabbed the shotgun and I just start shooting from the side.

Starting point is 00:53:55 And, you know, we had slug in there. Birdshot, slug, bird shot, slug, bird shot. So we let the shit, I'm letting a gun go. If they come in the house, we're in danger, right? Right. I'm trying to keep them from coming in. I'm usually never in these houses. Right.

Starting point is 00:54:09 I was just bored that night and wanted to go over there and hang out with the fellows, why they're selling drugs for me. So I let them shots go, those kids end up taking off. They don't come in the house, thank God. but he's shot. So now I'm like,

Starting point is 00:54:21 I'm thinking streetwise, I got to go find these dudes, man, my boy shot, he's in the hospital, two o'clock in the morning, I leave the hospital. The next day I go looking for these dudes. Kids name was Doe Boy, right? And I get this drug addict.

Starting point is 00:54:32 I'm like, yo, drive me, this dude Jimmy McDonough. So, yo, drive me, we're going to go find these dudes. This is some crazy-ass white dude with long hair. He fixes cars. He gets eyes, steals, you know, all kinds of shit, like metal, and he's just one of them wild dudes. He's like, let's go.

Starting point is 00:54:46 So I'm like, all right, so we go try to find these kids, and I see them. But he's in his mother's little-ass compact car. So I take the gun and I see them. I go to try to shoot them, and I shoot a hole through the ceiling of his, in the ceiling of his mother's car.

Starting point is 00:55:01 Boom, the slug goes. And they start running. They didn't even have a gun on them. Obviously, they would have shot back. But I shot a hole through there. And then eventually the stuff happens with Wodey, where I beat him up and all that. So now we have this beef.

Starting point is 00:55:15 I'm wiretapped. Eventually the cops say the reason they arrested us, so fast they wanted us is because we ended up going over there and shooting up a house. Yeah, the violence is progressing to a point where someone's going to get killed. So that's why they arrest us. They stopped the investigation because they say either I'm going to die or Wodey's going to die. So anyway, you know, that night, February 4, 2003, I leave my pizza shop. I call the Connecticut like, yo, I got to see you, whatever. So we end up going over to meet him. I used to always meet him on the side street by his house. And he's like, you know, you see them right there?

Starting point is 00:55:45 And I'm like, or I think I say that. I got the transcript. Because obviously my phone is tapped. I'm like, yo, you see them right there? And he's like, yeah, let's pull up. So we pull up. When we pull up... What is it? What do you mean?

Starting point is 00:55:58 Who's... What are you looking at? I don't know who it is. I think it might... Is it a van? Is it two guys standing next to a tree? No, it's like some investigators, obviously, in these cars. But I don't know that they're investigators.

Starting point is 00:56:08 I'm thinking, man, these people are going to rob us? Are these cops? He's like, yeah, let's just pull up. But I'm so thirsty to purchase these drugs to keep my houses going that I have to connect with this dude in assembly like, like, nah, this don't look right tonight. So anyway, we pull up, I jump in his vehicle, we do our exchange, I give him the money,

Starting point is 00:56:24 I grab what I got to grab, jump back in my vehicle, start pulling away. It's the police, right? But they block me in, boom, boom, I see these black dudes jumping out of these trucks with masks out of guns. I'm like, oh shit, we're getting robbed. I want to try to drive away, but they get me blocked in. I rip me out of the car, police, police. And honestly,

Starting point is 00:56:42 I'm thinking, I'm glad it's the police. Because I don't want no one like kidnapping me and taking me somewhere and kill me, right? And, you know, and I'm thinking, hey, at least I'm not getting robbed. Right. I'm happy it's the police, but I'm not realizing I'm really getting a 40-year sentence tonight. This is the start of a 40-year sentence, right?

Starting point is 00:56:59 So they got us at gunpoint, whatever. They strip-searched me. It's snowing. It's February 4, 2003, upstate New York, Western New York, Rochester. They strip-searched me. They can't find the drugs. The kid that's with me was my runner, right? Like one of my main dudes that worked for me, was kid Rich Ross.

Starting point is 00:57:14 He jumps out of the vehicle and runs. He throws the shit. Right. It was 125 grand, I think, a big eight. He throws the drugs. They can't find it. They leave. They take us down to the, you know, downtown.

Starting point is 00:57:26 They're investigating. They're interrogating us. All of this bullshit. They're like, where are the drugs? I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. They can't find them. They left the scene. So really, there's a chain of custody broke, right?

Starting point is 00:57:37 They leave. Right. They go back because I think Rich tells them that he ran and threw the drugs. He wants to get out of jail tonight. He tells him in the area that he threw the drugs. They're there for like four hours. They find the drugs. They got a canine.

Starting point is 00:57:47 They find the drugs. drugs. They charged me on the state, on the state side. And I end up going to court the next day. I get like a $5,000 bail. They hit my mother's house. They hit my sister's house. They hit the pizza shop. They destroyed my house. Put holes in the walls, all the drywall. They just destroyed everything. They arrest my sister. They find a gun in my sister's house. So we get down there. Why do they arrest your sister? What does she do? She had a gun in her room. You can't have a gun? You can have a gun? Well, I think there was some drug paraphernalia. Oh, okay. Some stuff was being hidden at my sisters.

Starting point is 00:58:19 Oh, okay. So they arrest my sister. The crazy thing is they give me like a $5,000 bill. I got, you know, I've been to prison and everything. They give my sister a $100,000 bail. My sister can't get out of jail. I get a bail. So my wife at the time, well, it was my girlfriend at the time, who's my wife now,

Starting point is 00:58:35 she comes, she bails me out. They're taking forever. I've been in jail a thousand times. Why are they not letting me go? What's going on? Eventually they get my stuff. They give me my belt. They walk me out.

Starting point is 00:58:44 Because they called the police and said, hey, he just bailed out. they're like, hold them, we're on our way there. So as I'm walking out, I remember seeing these two white dudes in the room when I walk out of the jail door. And they're like, hey, Chad, come with us real quick. And I'm like, I'm thinking, man, I got to run. U.S. Marshals? No, it's the Grenad, Greater Rochester Air Narcotics.

Starting point is 00:59:02 Oh, okay. Same dudes that arrested me, right? The same team. And they're like, hey, man, we're taking you over to the federal building. So they were working with the federal government, you know, putting these cases together, whatever. So they take me to the federal courthouse. And I remember walking in this courthouse.

Starting point is 00:59:15 and I'm thinking in my head like this looks like some rich white people's den like leave it to beaver Brady bunch like how their living room looked and I see this judge on this big ass it's way different than state court and I'm like wow this this shit's serious I thought this was only you know like I said earlier

Starting point is 00:59:30 for the mob and no bank robbers this ain't for me why am I here I'm just a petty ass you know rock dealer whatever and I'm like wow this shit's serious they start reading off the charges 10 to life I'm like 10 to life what do 10 to life oh hell no

Starting point is 00:59:45 Do you get a street attorney at this point? Like you're in the federal system? Do you get a street attorney? They give you a public defender. So because there's so many of us, they appoint me a lawyer. Right. And I'm like, I don't want, they give me the public defender's office. I'm like, I don't want no public defender.

Starting point is 01:00:02 I'm good on that. I'm going to hire an attorney. So I end up hiring this attorney that used to be a prosecutor in the feds. I think he's the head prosecutor now in our city, or he was at one time. Mike Green, his brother was the head DA. So I end up hiring that dude, right? And I give him thousands of dollars. And he comes and says, look, I'm going on vacation.

Starting point is 01:00:22 I need another 10,000. I'm not going to be here for two weeks. But look, they're going to give you 20 years, man. I think you need to take the 20 years. I'm like, I just got arrested. He's like, trust me, take the 20 right now. I'm like, man, I'm not taking 20 years. And I remember getting up.

Starting point is 01:00:36 I started crying. And I'm like, I'm out of here. I'm good on you. I don't need you. Yeah, I don't need you. I'm 20. I think I'm 24. I just turned 24 when I get arrested.

Starting point is 01:00:45 Well, that's a lot. That's a kid. Yeah. So I'm like, I'm not taking 20 years, man. In your late 40s, you know, that's just a shit. So I get rid of that lawyer. I'm like, don't even come back. He's like, hey, but, you know, you still owe me.

Starting point is 01:00:55 He used to send me letters. I owed him money. He didn't do shit. He went to one court date with me and came to see me like two times. I'm good. End up hiring this other lawyer, Donald Thompson. It's supposed to be top-notch lawyer where I'm from. You don't know what a real lawyer is until you have a real lawyer.

Starting point is 01:01:07 All right. So, and I compare this to John. Eventually, later on in life, John Gleason ends up becoming my attorney. becomes a federal judge for 20-something years, steps off the bench and starts helping people that were in the position I was in 40 years, 924C stacking. We can talk about that a little bit. But that ends up becoming my real lawyer.

Starting point is 01:01:26 So when I compare my trial lawyer with the guy that prosecuted John Gotti, John Gleason, there's a big difference. So it's, you know, John Gleason, Jill Harrington out of Jersey. They come with five or six lawyers. They're coming to get busy. And eventually I went and get out of prison, which we'll get into. But my trial lawyer, supposed to be great where we're from. He wasn't shit, man.

Starting point is 01:01:47 He's telling me, oh, this is what our defense is going to be. This is how we're going to do it. This is how we're going to win. Long story short, obviously I don't win. I go to a three-week trial. Wodee testifies on me, the kid that was the gangster. He testified. I had a baby with my sister.

Starting point is 01:02:01 He ends up dying of a... I couldn't even believe that kid did f***leman. He just died. Did he mean to? Or sometimes people are doing... They think they're doing something else. He was getting high, man. He was a drug addict, which you would never think...

Starting point is 01:02:11 Well, I know, but sometimes they think they're doing powder and it's laced with... No, I think he knew what he's. I think you knew. Okay. Because, I mean, it's a legitimate drug on its own. It's just that it's so fucking potent, people are ODing. So they bring, well, Odie, he testifies on me.

Starting point is 01:02:24 They bring Richard Ross, who was really close to me. He ends up, you know, testifying. Prostitutes come in there testifying, cops testify. It's a three-week trial. Do they offer you anything prior to trial? Oh, yeah. They made some offers. On the day of trial, they offered 27 years.

Starting point is 01:02:43 I said, hey, man, tell them, you know, 17. He's like, let me go talk to them. They're talking. They're talking. They come back. They're like, no, last offer is 25 years. I'm like, man, come on, man. I'll take 17. Get me 17 years.

Starting point is 01:02:54 Who the hell is going to read those 17 years? I'm like, man, please get me 17. They wouldn't do it. So there's no other option, man. It's either 27 years or life. My mandatory minimum is 40, but they could bring me down to 17. I was thinking, hey, give me seven for the gun, give me 10 for the drugs.

Starting point is 01:03:11 That's fine. We'd be in good shape there. But it don't happen that way. they're at 25. That's the lowest they'll go. So we go to a three-week, you know, three-week trial. My prosecutor was absolutely horrible, vicious dude, despised me, hated me, made it personal to the point where he would, you know, give me middle fingers like that. And it was just, you know, even the judge had to like scold him and yell at him and tell him to act like a professional. And he just, he always has issues with every defense lawyer, every case, he's always

Starting point is 01:03:39 a problem. It's just a real piece of work, right? So I end up. Did you try and get the wire thrown out. Oh, yeah. We've done all that stuff, but none of them work. No, you don't win. You don't win that stuff. I mean,

Starting point is 01:03:50 I even had a ceiling issue under Franks versus Delaware, right? I know the law a little bit. I own a paralegal company. Right. So, you know, there were some legal issues, but they don't care, man.

Starting point is 01:04:00 A lot of times they find a way around it. They acted in good faith. Oh, they did seal it when really they didn't seal it. You know, they always find it's hard to beat the feds, man. No matter what anyone says, it's hard. Yeah. So I go to that three-week trial. They find me guilty.

Starting point is 01:04:14 when they say they got the verdict, all these people come, man. All these students from upstairs, the prosecutor's office. It's like a good time, man. They're like, yeah, we got them. Like, damn, you're about to send me to prison for the rest of my life. Yeah, I made those choices. I deserve to go to prison, but I don't deserve life. So eventually the PSI comes back, the pre-sentence investigation report comes back.

Starting point is 01:04:35 Life plus 30. Life for the drugs, five for the first gun, 25 for the second gun. I'm like, damn, man, my life's over. This is it. This is my life. And the judge ends up sentenced me to 40 years, mandatory mental. Again, all those people come. My mom's in there crying.

Starting point is 01:04:49 My family's in there crying. And I say this on the record. I said, this ain't a party. All these people are here like, they're happy. You're happy. I'm going to prison for 40 years. This is what your day is about. But you hate me and don't even know me.

Starting point is 01:05:01 You guys are down here joyous that I'm getting 40 years or maybe a life sentence. And it makes you feel good. What type of people do that shit? Yeah, I deserve to go to prison. Probably for a significant amount of time. But not 40 years at the age of 24. Right. And they were all down there like, yeah, they were happy about it.

Starting point is 01:05:17 Like, man, some of them were pissed. I only got 40 years. They wanted me to get life. I'm like, you must be a real miserable. You're a real miserable person to want me to have a life sentence. Why does the judge go with the low end of 40 instead of life? Well, he says, look, when he does it, he says, I'm going to act in a moment of compassion here. I'm acting in a moment of compassion for your mother, not for you because you're a menace to society.

Starting point is 01:05:38 So you go to prison. I mean, probably after the, of two years of deep, deep depression, when do you start doing legal work? I started doing legal work, man, when I was in the county jail. Like, I got to figure this shit out. I'm going to prison. I had two years of just complete comatose, just depressed. I was probably depressed for a little bit of time, but I snapped out of that shit.

Starting point is 01:06:02 Because, like I just said, I'm a hustler, man. I'm working. I'm hustling. I got to find a way to get out of prison. And if it's reading legal books and finding mistakes that the cops made, I'm going to find them. And I was given a gift, man. God gave me a gift and I'm really good at it.

Starting point is 01:06:15 I'm really legitimately good at it. I'm not like some of these other prison consultants that are, you know, lying and doing things that they, you know. No, I mean, no, but no, because this is important to me. This is important to me because there are people that are desperate. There are people in prison just like me, just like you, just like, you know, that deserve a second chance. They don't need some con artist, you know, saying, hey, look, I can get you out of prison

Starting point is 01:06:37 for $5,000. You can talk to me one-on-one once a week. And I can get you out on this date. Like, that shit's a lie. Yeah. And I really do despise that dude and those people because they're stealing from people that are just like me, just like you. The best legal work I got was from jailhouse lawyers because they're not billing. You know what I'm saying?

Starting point is 01:07:00 And they have the time to invest in your case. And part of the reason they're doing it, one, you're probably paying them. But let's take the payment aside. They want to, like, this is how they do their time. They want to win the case as opposed to the street lawyer basically wants to, if you think about this, he, you give him 50 grand. The more, he makes more money by working on your case less. Like, does that make sense? 100%.

Starting point is 01:07:28 So if he can, if he can get that money by working as little on your case, so winning, winning to him is get this motherfucker to plead guilty so that I don't have to go to trial so I can keep that money. So I don't have to review 200 hours of DEA tapes because that's $300 an hour against. Like he can't do it. It's in his best interest for you to plead guilty. That's not how the lawyer in prison thinks. He's got plenty of time. He wants to fucking, he wants to get you. Because then if you win, if he gets you any movement at all, there's fucking 50 other guys that are begging for him to take their case.

Starting point is 01:08:09 And he'll, he gets commissary and he gets whatever. and maybe he's doing 40 years, and this is how he does his time. So, you know, with us talking about it, I'm going to say this. And my record speaks for itself. I've probably got 30 people out that had life sentences, violent criminals, people that killed people. And I'm going to say this on the record on your show. I've probably won more cases than any lawyer or paralegal in this country.

Starting point is 01:08:28 And I mean that. And my record speaks for itself, like I said. So when you do have these prison consultants that are robbing people stealing, selling new dreams, it does make me angry. I take that shit personal, man. Well, it also makes that industry look sleepy. I've seen the work that these guys do. Like I have a client that he had.

Starting point is 01:08:45 Like I seen, you know, the motion that he wrote. He hand wrote this way. It's absolutely horrible. But now, you know, obviously AI's here. So they, you know, a lot of their stuff's AI. I think things should be personal. I think that, you know, AI's not there yet. It will be there.

Starting point is 01:08:57 Right. But it's not there yet. And that's what they're doing. They're, you know, they're writing you a motion in 20 minutes and charging you $5,000. And they got a bunch of facts wrong. There's another guy that's connected to him. The judge just issued a decision in January and said, all of your stuff, is AI and it's got the wrong cases.

Starting point is 01:09:13 These cases don't apply and they don't say what you say they say. It's like, come on, man. You're filing this for people that got life sentences. Some of these dudes are gangsters in there, man. They ever get a chance to do something to you? And you screwed them around. You go back? They might see you.

Starting point is 01:09:28 Probably not for these guys because they'll be in lows and FCIs, but boy, you're doing a case for a guy in a USB that's got life and you mess them around, your ass is hit. Well, you know, part of the problem with the system is that you could write, you could handwrite a motion in green crown saying it's a nice guy motion. My client's a nice guy. He should get out and send it in. And the court responds to it as if it's a legitimate motion.

Starting point is 01:09:56 And so if you're the guy that that motion was written for and you read it, it sounds like, man, they're taking my motion seriously. No, they're not, bro. Anything you send in, they respond as if it's serious. And then they tell the U.S. attorney, you have nice. 90 days to respond to Mr. Cox's nice guy motion. And they don't mention nobody, at no point do they really come back and say, maybe the judge does, but pretty much at no point do they usually come back and say, well, this is garbage. None of this makes sense.

Starting point is 01:10:24 So these people that don't know nothing about the law, they're believing this prison consultant help them. Fucking do an amazing job, bro. They even made the government respond. They're checking out. They always has to respond. They're going to respond in 90 days of my nice guy motion. Yeah. It's ridiculous.

Starting point is 01:10:35 Are you serious, man? You know, and that's kind of like, you know, where we're at, you know. like criminal justice reform because I know what it's like to have 40 years. I know what it's like to have a life sentence and begging people to help you and you only, you don't have money. You've been in here 10 years, 15 years. You don't know how to write a compassionate release motion. You don't know how to get yourself out of prison.

Starting point is 01:10:54 You call these lawyers and, you know, they're like, yeah, that'll be 30,000. Right. That'll be 40,000. I ain't got $40. Yeah. How do I have, you know, $40,000? And, you know, that's kind of like where I'm at, like with the hat, the reinvention of Chad marks and the shirt. like criminal justice reform does matter to me.

Starting point is 01:11:11 Right. Because I was that guy. I just got a guy out, man, and it's, it's, I'm going to end up doing something on this. I got him out of prison. He gets out. He's been out 15 months. He's married to this chick. She was the pit, woman that paid me to do all this stuff.

Starting point is 01:11:25 We build kind of a business relationship, really nice girl. He just gets caught with a kilo of, I think the key of cocaine and a whole bunch of other stuff. You're getting a life sentence. And now your wife, who's never been in trouble, who owns, a business, she's drugged into this conspiracy and her mandatory minimum is 10. So Karen's facing mandatory minimum of 10. Her father calls me, you know, two days before I came up here, like, hysterical. Like, what's going to happen to my daughter? I told her, don't be around this piece of, and I'm like, look, you want me to lie to you or you want me to tell you the truth.

Starting point is 01:11:56 This is what I'm going to charge you. I spoke to Karen on the phone. She needs some real help, but I'm not going to lie to you. I'm going to tell you what it is. Some people tell you what you want to hear because they want your money. I'm going to tell you what it is. And I tell people, if I can't win the case, I tell you, look, you probably can't win. But if you wanted to do it, this is what's going to cause, and you're probably going to lose. And I tell people, hey, I can't determine what the judge is going to do. One thing I can guarantee is if I do it, it's going to be done right. It's not going to be AI, and I'm going to do everything I can to get you out of prison.

Starting point is 01:12:22 I tell my clients, I stick with you until I die or until you get out of prison. I don't abandon people. And I ain't dying no time soon. I'm 47 years old. I'm still young, still healthy. I work out. I take care of myself. Even though I'm drinking Mountain do it at your spot.

Starting point is 01:12:36 Good. But, you know, I, now I really do try to help people. And that's, you know, kind of like, and I guess we're going to get into this. Like, I went to Big Sandy. I went to one of the most dangerous, if not the most dangerous federal prison in the country at that time. And I end up writing a book about it. And now I have, you know, a team of all women in Boston and Hollywood. And they're trying to bring that book to be a movie, Netflix series.

Starting point is 01:13:00 But not it's not just about me and about a payday. It's about the criminal justice system. It's about the shit that they do. I was 24 years old. I deserved to go to prison. I didn't deserve 40 years, but I deserved to go to prison. And that's the stuff that needs to be fixed. I mean, 40 years?

Starting point is 01:13:16 You were a nonviolent criminal. 26 years? Never been to prison. I got a guy that had, you know, I was really close with this guy, Jim, and we were in Raidbrook together. And Jim was, he had big hedge fund, all of that. He pays a lawyer like $500,000. The lawyer cops him out.

Starting point is 01:13:33 The judge gives him, he cops out to two counts. The judge gives him, the, at zero to 20. Judge gives them 20 on the first count, gives him 20 on the second, runs it while. Jim has 40 years. He paid $500,000 for a lawyer to get the statutory maximum. You might as well, you should have went to trial. Right. You preserved your right to appeal at the very least. You got the maximum sentence from a lawyer who doesn't know shit about the law, but she's seen you and seen a payday. $500,000 to get the statutory maximum.

Starting point is 01:13:59 What lawyer would give you the advice to plead guilty to 40 years? She told me you were going to probably get five or six years. He ends up before his life's over. He was 50 years old when he went to jail. He's fighting to get out. I mean, if I know this many people, if I know multiple people, I know a dozen people were literally when they would, their PSI is saying 30 years, 20 years. And their lawyers telling them, oh, don't worry about that.

Starting point is 01:14:21 We're going to argue that in front of the judge. You're going to get five years. And it's like, you're PSI. But then the person advising you is telling you that 20 years on the PSI doesn't mean anything. You're looking at maybe three or four years at the most. You get in front of the judge. he makes a couple arguments. The judge says, yeah, I disagree with those arguments.

Starting point is 01:14:39 And the guy fucking gets fucking 20 years. And then he's gone. And then the lawyer just stops answering his calls. And you're sitting there going, this can't happen. I paid this guy $100 grand. This can't happen. That's exactly what happened.

Starting point is 01:14:53 Let's talk a little bit about the whole prison experience. You know, I end up going to probably the most dangerous federal prison in the country at the time. I think the prosecutor had something to do with that. Make sure he goes far away from home. I go to USP Big Sandy. you know, people that'd been there back then, that was, what, 07, 08, 09, probably pretty wild. I walk into that prison, I'm hearing in the stories, I'm like, damn, man, I'm going to Big Sandy.

Starting point is 01:15:15 Like, you're on the bus like, wow, man, this is it. Like, I'm going to the torture dome, whatever. And it's dangerous there. People are getting killed there. People are getting stabbed there. I end up going to Big Sandy. He started to learn prison politics, right? You go to prison, you know, white dudes approach you, gang members, independence.

Starting point is 01:15:33 You know, hey, look, man, you're from New York. You know, we got the bus list. We know you got 40 years. You're a big kid. It's all manipulation, you know, shock callers and prison and, you know, all these prison stories that people tell and YouTube stories. A lot of this shit's a lie, man. It's all, almost all of it's a lie.

Starting point is 01:15:49 Everybody's a tough guy until, you know, this shit gets real. Right. Everyone, everyone's right. I'm going to stabbing is due until stabbing starts. Then when stabbing starts, when you witness someone get murdered, you're like, wow, man, I just seen this dude get killed. So a big Sandy, it's just, it's a shock. and up, you know, getting in the car.

Starting point is 01:16:05 You know, a car is a gang, but they call it a car. You know, immediately you're from New York. You're in the East Coast car, and this is what it is. And these are the rules. And here's your shock caller, Stevie Burke, you know, from Boston, one of the guys from that movie of the town, Stevie's got a life sentence. Here's your other homie, Adam Olivairy. Adam's well-known, big-ass dude.

Starting point is 01:16:22 And they're like, yo, you know, this is what it is. And if you're not with us, you don't get to just leave. You're going to be with us. And this is how shit's going to go. And pretty much, that's what it was. So I'm in this environment where I'm like, wow, and I'm, you know, first day there. I hear the alarm going off and they attacked this dude out on the yard. He's a white dude.

Starting point is 01:16:41 Some other white dude went to the Muslims and said, hey, look, this dude's trying to take my, and take his boutet. And he goes to them and they're like, hey, man, the Muslims go to the East Coast car. Like, yo, this dude. And the shock callers are always looking for something. Always looking for a reason to hurt somebody, right? Because it's like part of the day. It's prison policy. politics, man. We got to run this car the right way. We got to be straightforward. We got to,

Starting point is 01:17:06 you know, we got to make this happen. You know, this is what it is. If you violate, you're getting killed. You violate. We're punishing you. We're going to smash. That was a favorite word. We're going to smash him. And they'll smash you for anything, man, for dumb stuff. They make up excuses to hurt people. Um, pretty much, um, the first day I'm there, well, this wasn't an excuse. This dude was really trying to do something to this young white kid. And they set like three dudes on them. And, you know, you hear the alarm, beep, the deuce is are hit. and they're like, get on the wall. We all got to get on the wall.

Starting point is 01:17:33 We see these dudes coming by. This is the Muslims going after themselves. No, the white kid went to the Muslims and said he needed help. Okay. He was a new white kid in prison. So the Muslims go to the white dude and say, this is your problem. This white dude is trying to do something to this other white dude. Oh, I thought it was a Muslim because you would typically go to the...

Starting point is 01:17:53 No, no. So the white kid, new to prison, young kid, never been in prison. Prison movies, things that the Muslims are religious and they're doing their Salat and all of that. They're going to help me. He's afraid to go to the white dudes. So he goes to them, tells them what happened, and eventually he gets in trouble for going to the Muslims. They go smash the white dude.

Starting point is 01:18:09 I'm coming down the hallway with like 20 people. And, I mean, when we get off the bus, like numerous people check in. You know, they go to protective custody right away. Like, I don't want to be here. I'm scared to be here. Please keep me safe. Put me in. They'd rather sit in the hole.

Starting point is 01:18:20 Back then, you sit in a hole for a year, year and a half before you get a transfer. They were willing to sit in solitary confinement with another dude in a cell for 23 hours a day than rather go out on the yard. Right. And sometimes it's the right decision. I mean, prison politics. I'm not a prison politic guy anymore, right? They used to be. And we'll get into that.

Starting point is 01:18:37 So anyway, you know, I see the kid walking down the hallway. I believe it was Dennis Mooney out of Boston. And he kind of gives me that nod. And of course, I'm living the prison movie life. And I give him the nod back. Like, yeah, good white dude. Like, what's up, bro? But yeah, you guys put in work, you know.

Starting point is 01:18:50 Go to the unit, total chaos. People sitting at the place smoking cigarettes. The cop comes over. He's like, hey, man, where are you from? And they're like, hey, look, he's going to go to. Well, we're going to tell you what Sally's going to go to in a minute. I'm used to New York State prison. You don't tell the cops what's going to happen.

Starting point is 01:19:04 The cops tell you what's going to happen. You know, we'll let you know what cell he's going in in a little while. And they're like, you want to go to this cell? You want to go to that cell? This guy is this way. This guy's that way. This guy's an asshole. I wouldn't go in the cell with him.

Starting point is 01:19:14 I'd go in with the old guy, Mr. Young. And I outline all that stuff in my book, Blood on the Razorware, which they're going to turn it, which we're working on, like I said earlier, the movie. So, you know, I outlined the cell. I go, I go in with the old man. And he's like real like, hey, look. You know, they end up telling me, hey, he's the town crier. He knows everything that's going on in the prison.

Starting point is 01:19:32 He works in the unit team, all of that. But anyway, you know, Big Sandy, definitely dangerous place. I've seen people get killed over there, seen people get stabbed. And it's always over nothing. It's always someone making up a story. Like, that guy's a snitch, man. We knew them back. I mean, it's not always a story.

Starting point is 01:19:47 I mean, there's reasons. Sometimes Choskis, you know, they try the yard. I've seen them attack. Some news that had, you know, something in their past, their SOs, whatever. But they demo people over there, man. Like, they destroy people. Right.

Starting point is 01:19:59 And, you know, prison, prison politics. You've got to have a knife. You've got to show your paperwork. And you live that life, right? You start living that life. And you're like, damn, man. You start to grow up, though. Some people, some people that clicks.

Starting point is 01:20:13 And you're like, man, this is all a lie. Some people get becoming grossed in it. It's their entire existence. Violence is part of the day. And sometimes when they, you know, you get locked down. And I remember feeling like, wow, someone got stabbed today. Thank God. Thank God, because now I get to get locked in and I get to take a nap.

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Starting point is 01:22:00 I get to take a nap. And sometimes you begin to reflect on your life. You start, you know, you're like, wow, man, my mother, my sister, my brother, there's no Christmas no more. There's no holidays no more. There's no St. Patrick's Day in here. There's no Christmas in here. There's no Thanksgiving in here. Shit's all a lie.

Starting point is 01:22:19 And people are like, I'm the shock, there are no, you know, I don't want to disrespect people, about. I feel like men make their own decisions. Men respect men. Men make decisions. Right. If the cop comes and tells you, in Big Sandy, you've got a life sentence. He says, bend over and spread your ass cheeks. You're more than likely going to bend over and spread your ass cheeks. That's what's going to happen. Hey, get in your cell, stupid. You're going to get in yourself. You know, I mean, there are guys that attack the cops and, you know, cops do keep it, a lot of cops try to keep it respectful because they're afraid too. Yeah. Well, especially at a pen. Yeah, but then you have other cops that don't care about respect.

Starting point is 01:22:53 you. They're criminals too. Like, look what happened in Big Santa. My case marriage, I thought he's one of the nicest dudes, and I interviewed this dude on my channel. They end up, like, brutalizing this kid, beating them. They're all, they all got sentenced. They're all in federal prison now. Like, there are some cops that are rogue, and they don't, they're not afraid of you because you got a knife. They don't have no problem punching you in the face and cuffing you behind your back. And when you see me, you see me. You got some good old country boys over there in Kentucky, man. They'll fight. And not all cops are punks. Some of them cops can fight. Like I fought a cop in Coleman.

Starting point is 01:23:25 It was a fair one. And I could come on your show him, like, man, I crushed the cop, but I didn't. We fought. And he was like, you done? I'm done, man, you done? Like, we fought in a laundry room. Yeah. Because I spit on the, on the door on him and was going off on him.

Starting point is 01:23:38 He's like, all right, tough guy. Yeah, we've interviewed, we've interviewed cops where they've gone to the inmates and been like, hey, you want to take care of it? You want to go over here and take care of it? And they're like, yeah. And I'm sitting there going, are you serious? But it's not one cop. It's been like three different cops.

Starting point is 01:23:53 have told the same kind of story like, oh, no, we'll take them and go get into a fight and where we know there's no cameras. And the other cops know, hey, I'm going over here with it. Yeah, yeah, that's cool. Yeah. So it's like, that, are you, that's fucking insane. So like I was saying, man, the whole— I wasn't in any of those places, by the way.

Starting point is 01:24:08 So, like, you know, when I talk about, like, gang members in the white car, you know, not no disrespect to the white race or the white cars or dudes in there, but a lot of this, a lot of this stuff's nonsense, man, running around killing each other. When you're not really working on the real goals, like, they took microwaves out. You want a microwave? let that be a goal. You want microwaves back or getting out of prison. You want programs that actually you can actually get out of prison.

Starting point is 01:24:30 Yeah. Fight for that. And do something with. Yeah, fight for that. Instead of him like, oh, man, that dude was a snitch back in 72. Let's kill them. And eventually I started to realize that stuff. There's no honor among thieves, right?

Starting point is 01:24:40 You're going to tell me, hey, you know, don't tell on this guy or, you know, don't do this, but, you know, you're buying drugs and you're getting high as a kite in your cell and you're calling your mom and your kid's mother and you're begging for $100 when the kids ain't even got no food to eat. You'd rather have $100 so you can get high. This is all a lie, man. This whole story's a lie. Right. This whole prison story, you're a shock. And you start to realize, man, then eventually, you know, people, they did come to me.

Starting point is 01:25:05 They came. I lived the prison life, the tough guy life. I've been stabbed in prison. I've done some vicious things to people, acting like I was a tough guy. And I never told on my channel, I don't really tell tough guy YouTube stories. I don't, because that wasn't my mission. That's not what I do. Other people tell their stories.

Starting point is 01:25:20 Right. I never really tell my story. I've never really done that. Yeah. Well, I've been asking you for a couple of years or two years now to come. You keep blowing me off until, what, three, four months ago where I was like, bro, just come down, come down. So, you know, like, I don't, I'm not telling you like, hey, I beat this dude up at

Starting point is 01:25:36 USP Lee over to snow cones. I didn't, you know, I'm not telling you, hey, me and, you know, this kid went on a mission from Boston and we stabbed this dude 29 times or whatever. Like, I didn't get, I don't get into that stuff. Some people I have interviewed have mentioned things that have been with me and I, and I just kind of like brush it off, like Jimmy Mac. I brush it off. These dudes in prison are miserable, man.

Starting point is 01:25:55 You got a life sentence. All you got is you're the shot call. You got nothing left in life. You got life. So you think that it's your mission to be the boss like Stevie Burke. You're the boss of all the East Coast guys. And it comes out later on that you testify on a murder when you were 17. So now he's not the shot calling him.

Starting point is 01:26:10 He was the dude trying to tell all of us what to do. That's how phony and fake this stuff is. So eventually they do come to me. And they say, hey, the law enforcement. And they say, hey, we got this tape. with this cop. Hold on. I have a question.

Starting point is 01:26:24 What do they do? Do the CEO say, hey, go to visitation, go to... Yeah. You got a visit on a Wednesday. I got to visit on a Wednesday. What the hell are you talking about? Yeah, that's usually law enforcement or lawyers. So they do come to see me.

Starting point is 01:26:37 And they're like, hey, look, you want to get out of prison? This is what we got. And they asked me about a murderer and asked me some other stuff. And they're like, but really, we want this cop right here. We think he's involved in this and this. And they play the tape. My phone's wiretapped and I'm talking to him on the phone. I'm not going to get into...

Starting point is 01:26:52 all the specific details, but at that point, I'm like, man, prison is a lie. How long have you been locked up at this point? Probably eight years, nine years. Eight years and you still got fucking, yeah, but I've been living. 32 years to go. But I've been living the prison life, the tough guy life, fighting people. Shot caller says, yo, go beat this dude up. Shot caller don't care about me.

Starting point is 01:27:09 Yeah. Go kill this dude. No, you go kill him. You start to realize, and a lot of people don't. You have all these dudes that worship the shot caller. Like, he's the king. He's the boss, you know? And no, it's choppo and Mayo.

Starting point is 01:27:22 telling everybody else don't snitch when you're giving you're giving information to the DEA like you're you're no it's it's the trickle down so eventually you know what I do I talk to them and I just make this shit all a bunch I don't really tell the truth I lie I think I'm going to trick them I still still in that young mind I'm going to trick them it don't work out for me I don't get out of prison for it I don't get any type of deal I don't get any of that stuff I don't get any of that shit I don't get no 5k1 I get out of prison on compassionate release 20 years later I don't get out because I talked to the cops one time or twice at the prison about a cop. And in my mind, I'm thinking he's a cop.

Starting point is 01:27:57 So this is a dirty cop? Yeah, it's a dirty cop. And I'm thinking, who is it? Was he shaking you down or just giving you information? You know, okay, what? Given information, I gave them money. I gave him money at the strip club one time. Like, you know.

Starting point is 01:28:10 Right. Okay. But so you give them some, yeah, yeah, whatever. Yeah, 100%. And nothing, but nothing comes of it. Yeah. And they think that I, they think that I know who the shooter is at this, at this bank. Right.

Starting point is 01:28:21 And I tell him. I said, yeah, I know who it is. It was the cop. Right. I tell me it was the cop. And they're like, they go nuts. Why? It ain't the cop you're alive.

Starting point is 01:28:31 And that was the end of it. Because I felt like they were just full of shit. And they were bullshit. I'm like, fucking, I'm stuck here for 40 years. And now I talk to these people. That was a mistake. Which I didn't like, this is exactly what happened. This is who the fucking shoot.

Starting point is 01:28:42 I don't want. But I didn't know. But I didn't know. They thought I was in. They thought that, they thought that, that I knew. Right. You know, they thought that. They really believe that.

Starting point is 01:28:51 And they really believe that. probably still believe it to this day that I knew. And I mean, eventually the dude ends up getting arrested and gets a life sentence. But they think that I know them. Right. Whatever. But it's, it's bigger than that. But I told him it was the cop. Right. And they're like, oh, you named the wrong person. Yeah, on purpose. Right. To be an asshole to you. That's why I did that. But either way, you had a conversation with them. Yes. That's the problem. That's a problem, right? Yeah. That puts me in a bad light, right? Prison, prison, prison politics. But like I said, dude, I grew up tough kid. I've been to some prisons. I've done some bad things to people. Not proud of that stuff.

Starting point is 01:29:23 But eventually I do. I changed my life. I start learning, you know, obviously I was doing the law, but now I'm getting really good at it. And I'm getting people out of prison. I end up in an FCI. I write the reentry program. I do all kinds of stuff. I'm taking programs, alternative violence projects seminars. And I start thinking, man, you know, if I ever do, the law ever does change, you know, I got a resume now. I'm not that dude no more. I don't live the straight life no more. I don't live a prison life no more because I know that life has so much more to offer. I'm starting to figure it out as I get older. Right. This ain't it. Yeah. Walking around like, yo, what's up, you know, throwing up gang signs and, you know, I'm this dude. Dude, these are the most immature.

Starting point is 01:29:58 This is immature. This is, yo, you don't care about what gang are you in. I'm in the family gang, but my wife and my kids, that's, that's the gang I'm in now. Right. I'm not in, you know, I'm not a DWB. I'm not a East Coast, you know, white dude car. I'm not, I mean, dude, I've been stabbed in federal prison. I've, you know, had my own people, like, attack me because they're like, oh, you ain't part of this no more. And, you know, this shit's overwit. And I'm like, yeah, it is. It's overwit. You know, I got into it with, you know, Stevie Burke sent some people to get me in Big Sandy. And I was out there fighting for my life. Like, I'm literally fighting for my life. And the kid had a knife. He didn't stab me. Had he stabbed me? If he didn't get scared and

Starting point is 01:30:39 stab me, I might not be here. But he froze. And I got lucky. I hit him and he fell. When he fell, his boy took the knife, the cops were coming out. They threw it down the drain. And there was this kid Jake, right? I don't know if anyone ever watches. Jake's out of, you know, I think Boston. Jake was like their hitter. Jake was the hitter.

Starting point is 01:30:53 He was big, big kid. If Jake was out there and he grabbed me, I would have been in bad shape. But Jake wasn't out there that day. And my best friend in prison, my right-hand man is the dude that attacked me. Him and this kid Ace, Ace ends up getting shot in Big Sandy. They blow his, can I say this on here? Yeah. They shoot him in the back, blow his guts out of the front of him.

Starting point is 01:31:12 The nurse was trying to push his guts back in and wipe the dirt off him. This is the dude that jumped on me, who I was supposed to be cool with, and my boy Frank from Boston and four or five other dudes. They try to jump on me. Well, they do jump on me. Split my lip open. He's like, stabbed it. I'll never forget this, man.

Starting point is 01:31:28 This is in October 2008. I got a long john on, and I'm on the basketball court. And he's trying to pull the long john over my head, and he's telling him, stab this bitch, because I can fight. He's like, status. I'm trying to get out of this long john. And I get out of the long john. Once I'm out of the long john, I'm tagging.

Starting point is 01:31:42 and I'm moving, but I'm looking. I'm really looking for the police. Come save my ass, because I don't want to die here. Right. I've been through too much for my life to end here, to end like this. And I'm out there, I'm working with it, but I'm tagging these kids, bong, bong, and I'm moving and I'm looking, and I'm just trying to get my back to the fence. But really, in my mind, I'm thinking, damn, man, don't let me, don't let me die.

Starting point is 01:32:02 You know, don't let me die out here. And the police eventually come, I remember the lieutenant body, big old hillbilly. Body slams me so hard, my shoe flies off. I left Big Sandy with one shoe on, and I remember leaving. And I remember seeing his kid. So, like, these dudes hated the independent car. All the white gang members there hated the independent car because the independent car had 100 dudes.

Starting point is 01:32:21 Like, they took over. Stevie Burke took over the prison, despite the fact that he testified when he was 17. They didn't know that at the time. He hated white gang members. White gang members hated him, but they were outnumbered. And I remember NLR Rich, Richie, looking at me. He's like, man, he did a good job, man.

Starting point is 01:32:37 Like, I'm walking. Because I figured out that these people are manipulating us. Right. We're all young white kids. they're using us to do a bunch of bullshit because you're the shot caller go beat up this dude go steal this go carry these knives to the yard i'm not a dude boy man always been a leader and i was like damn i'm starting to become a dude boy here you know and he sent people on a mission to get me out of there because i told him i don't want to be a part of the car no more i'm done with this shit this ain't for me

Starting point is 01:32:58 i'm done with it and he took it personal you're going to leave and he had this real funny voice stevie burke and he's like you're going to leave your brothers you're going to leave your brothers out here we're your fucking brothers and now you want to leave us i'm like man it's over with bro i'm not i'm done with this, man. I'm not carrying saccharine out of the kitchen inside my boots so you can make moonshine and get drunk and start fighting with people. And, you know, and there was a time where, you know, we did something to this dude. He used the N-word in the unit. And he's like, yo, man, go punish this dude's, man. Put this dude's lights out. And he's like, and I remember, man, he's just full of blood at the end. And he's like, look what you white bitches did to me.

Starting point is 01:33:33 He's in the middle of the day. And look what you white bitches did to me. And he's screaming at. And I remember looking at him like, no, I'm acting tough because it's what you got to do, right? You got to fake it to make it. Now I'm thinking, damn, man, I felt bad for him. I know he used the N-word or whatever, but we demolish this dude, man. What happens if we had to kill them? I wouldn't be here right now. There wouldn't be no compassionate release for me. I'd be like Ricky Fackerel. Ricky went to prison with 10 years, ends up killing someone in prison, gets life, kills another dude, gets the death penalty. Biden takes him off death row. Like, I know these dudes. I was in prison with these dudes. These YouTubers that tell these stories and make

Starting point is 01:34:05 these documentaries, I was, I lived with these guys. And eventually, I wised up and said, they're here to see me and there's an opportunity to maybe get out of prison based on this dirty cop. What should I do? Dudes will tell all the prison stories they want, right? Tough guy prisoners on TikTok, all of that. This is how it is. This is how it is. Well, they weren't serving 40 years.

Starting point is 01:34:30 They weren't serving a life sentence. Everybody's a tough guy when they tell their stories. But if it gets real, these dudes are telling their mother, man. trust me if they had an opportunity 95% of them telling their mom faking at the highest low so you're telling me you'll

Starting point is 01:34:46 you're on this racial stuff but you'll buy f***ing all from a black dude and get high in your cell but you ain't going to tell on no one you're a liar man you're telling me that you're over here I don't know how to you're gunning you're gunning women down in prison

Starting point is 01:35:00 yeah yeah your hands in your pocket but you didn't tell on no one yeah but man people are full man it's all nonsense man it's all a lie. So eventually I get, you know, go through that situation in Big Sandy, I get transferred,

Starting point is 01:35:14 and that's when it starts really clicking, man. Like, this ain't it, man. Prison's a lie. You know, tough guy stories, gang members, Aryan Brotherhood, they don't do nothing fair. They're not going to let you get a one-on-one. So, you know, you fight fire with fire.

Starting point is 01:35:29 They're not, they're not letting you get a one-on-one. I'm not going to be that dude that's on the yard. They're like, yo, Chad was doing good until they killed him. until the five guys ever jumping, the one who got him in the neck after like 35 seconds. He was working, though. And then he died.

Starting point is 01:35:42 Not me, man. You start to grow up. You start to whizen up. You start to get smarter than them. You start to realize, hey, I'm not going to let these people manipulate me and use me and put me in a position to kill someone.

Starting point is 01:35:53 I'm not doing that. I'm not going to put myself in a position where I could get killed because now you've got a beef with me. And, you know, like, I had some people from a gang in Texas like threaten me and all that stuff. You'll take these videos down

Starting point is 01:36:05 going to do this and do that. Well, go ahead and do it. Because now we're going to do all your stories. Because I'm not afraid of you. We're going to do all your stories now. Since you want to get this thing going, we're going to do all your stories. You shoot at me. We're going to shoot back. I'm not afraid. Yeah. So. Well, in the end, you're stuck in prison. Even if you have people out here, like, not everybody's going to do what you want out here. No. So eventually, you know, Matt, obviously, I get out of prison. We talked a little bit about, you know, the compassionate release. I wrote the compassionate release argument. I did it for. for Conrado Contu, and people are like, oh, he was a cop. He was the sheriff down in Texas,

Starting point is 01:36:39 had a whole bunch of stuff going on. And people are like, like, I talked about this and were like, you helped a cop get out of jail? Yeah, I did. He was the chief of police. He was the mayor down there. I think it was in Brownsville. I wrote that compassionate release argument. And because of it, because I wrote that argument for that cop, right, thousands of drug dealers, thousands of killers, thousands of robbers have had the opportunity to get out of prison and have a new life. So when I get out of prison, so how many, you wrote all of those before you got to yours. Yeah, well, I wrote mine. I wrote his. So they passed the first step back, right? And I'm not going to bullshit you. He came to me and he's like, hey, brother, is any way

Starting point is 01:37:14 for me to get out of jail? I said, I think so. I'm going to practice on his case and see if I'm right. So I use it as a practicing tool. Right. He was a Christian and he was a really nice dude. I'm like, man, he had like 20-something years. I'm like, well, you know, I think that I'm right. You want to try it? And I'm already talking to these lawyers like John Gleason and Harlan and Harlan Proto and Jill Harrington. And they're like, no, you're wrong. I'm like, I don't think I'm wrong. like, no, I think you're wrong. You know, hopefully something will change. Well, guess what?

Starting point is 01:37:38 Now they're all doing these cases because I was right. Right. So I read the Conrado Cantu case. We send it in the Judge Grantsit. Boom. Doug Berman writes an article about me. Judge Sharp, who was at the White House with Kim Kardashian, they write an article about me in the USA Today.

Starting point is 01:37:53 And they're like, you know, this is it. This is a legal argument. This fucking inmate just fucking wrote this argument. I wrote that argument. I won it. I wrote it. And now I write mine. And mine's based on 924C stack.

Starting point is 01:38:05 because I got five for the first gun, which was a 12-gauge shotgun, 25 years for a 22 rifle, and 10 years for the drug. So I had 40 years, right? So I make this argument about the first step back says the judge can now determine what's extraordinary and compelling and reduce my sentence. My argument is the 924C stacking changed because they used to give you five for the first gun, 25 for the second. If you had a third, another 25, they just keep stacking them.

Starting point is 01:38:30 Or if you brandish, I think I mentioned this before and thing, seven years if you branched it, 10, if you fired a second, it and then they just keep stacking them. So 10, 25, 25, 25. I said they changed the law. But they didn't make it retroactive. Right. So what people have to understand is they, just because they changed the law, doesn't mean you're getting out. You were still, you were still sentenced under the original law. You have to figure out a way to get back in front of the judge so he can apply the new law to you. And it's almost impossible to get yourself back in front of the judge. So that's what it is. The 18 U.S.C. 3582, that compassionate release motion, I argued my rehabilitation,

Starting point is 01:39:05 longer threat to public safety. Got a college degree. Did over 100 programs, alternative violence project seminar facilitator, GED. I wrote a fast track GED program where everybody in my GED program except for one dude got their GED within 90 days.

Starting point is 01:39:17 They fired me because the teacher had these dudes in the class for three, four years and couldn't get them a GED. I did it in 90 days. We didn't cheat. We did it the right way. I just taught them. And I taught them what they know.

Starting point is 01:39:27 They knew math because of drugs. You want to teach them with a textbook. I taught them with ounces and quarter ounces and eight balls. And that's how I taught. them because that's what they knew. Yeah. I taught them what they knew. I taught them how to do fractions. Why? How? Well, if I had a half ounce and I had a quarter rounds and then I had another quarter rounds, what is that? Oh, it's all ounce. That's how I taught them. And they learned. Um, I did all that stuff.

Starting point is 01:39:47 And eventually, like I said, that's why I'm with the Raybrook. Eventually, you know, the judge gets this opportunity to do a compassionate release for me. And I make that argument. I'm fully rehabilitated, no longer a threat to public safety in the change in the stacking. Yes, it's not retroactive, but you can determine that this is an extraordinary compelling reason, because Congress said it was wrong, that it's been misapplied for 30, 40 years. And the judge ends up having two hearings for me. Usually you don't even get a hearing on compassionate release.

Starting point is 01:40:14 They have the SIS come testify on me at my hearing. So, you know, they called up there after I file it. They bring me downstairs. They make me get naked. SIS, take all your clothes off. We've got to take pictures, all your tattoos. I'm thinking, oh, man, do I got something? What's going on?

Starting point is 01:40:30 He doesn't tell me. But I find out because I have these hearings. He takes pictures, all these tattoos, says I admitted to him that I was a DWB at one point. I didn't do any of that stuff. It's all, he lied. Yeah. So we end up going down there.

Starting point is 01:40:42 He testifies on me. They're trying to keep me in jail. They go to the girl that I'm married to. They send the police to her and say, hey, Chad's got a really good chance of getting out. We want you to write a statement and say you don't want him out of prison. They try to manipulate her to write a statement. Eventually, I get out and we get remarried and have kids.

Starting point is 01:40:58 They're just doing everything again. So we have that hearing. Then they want a second hearing. So we have a second hearing. We got on there, they testify on me. 14 months later, the judge rants my compassionate release. And then it's a 53-page decision. He blasts the SIS.

Starting point is 01:41:11 He said he lied. They manipulated things in the case to try to keep me in jail. But the judge went in on the prosecutor. And that's when John Gleason's there representing me. And the prosecutor the judge tells him, hey, let's have some respect in this court to the prosecutor. It was personal, man. He was vicious. They did everything they could to keep me out of jail.

Starting point is 01:41:28 Keep you in jail. I mean, keep me in jail. So I ended up with 17 years, five months, 21, days. That's what I end up doing. I had 40 years at the age of 24. Sentence gets reduced. I come home with $78. I'm thinking, damn, man, I just... Wait, wait. So when it's, when you're, when they grant it, does he grant it like to bring it down to 20 years or does he say immediate release? Let's talk about that. Okay. So he cuts it to 20 years. They tell me, hey, you're leaving today. Just like that? Just like that. But they make a mistake. Okay. They make a mistake. They said, oh, no, we had to recalculate it. You're

Starting point is 01:42:02 You're leaving in April, whatever. You're getting out in April. So I'm like, okay, great. I'm getting out in April, whatever. Then they change it again. Now I'm supposed to be getting out. I go down there, like, yo, you got clothes. I'm like, no, the lady from the federal defender's office

Starting point is 01:42:15 came to pick me up, right? She's down there waiting for me. I see her out in the parking lot. I'm like, man, I'm getting out here. But you got clothes, I'll send you out first. The cops, I've been around a long time. They like me a little bit. Like, yeah, we're going to go ahead and get you.

Starting point is 01:42:25 I don't got clothes. You're going to have to wait for these guys. Had I had clothes, I would have walked out, right? I finally get my stuff together. They're walking me out. I get to the gate. I'm probably 20 feet from the gate. They call on the walkie-talkie.

Starting point is 01:42:39 They say, hey, stop him. There's been an emergency appeal. Is it really? Yeah. They stop me. They send me back into the prison. Darren COVID. I was in FMC Lexington.

Starting point is 01:42:52 I've seen numerous people die being ran out. Middle of COVID. They put me in this freaking unit for people that are leaving. You've got to go to this unit for two weeks before you leave, right? So I'm in this bullshit unit. gave away all my stuff, and they don't let me out. Lawyers file an emergency appeal, too. We have filed an allocatory appeal, all of that.

Starting point is 01:43:10 It takes like 20-something days. My lawyer, John Gleason, says, look, you're not going to get out, just going to go all the way to the Supreme Court. We're going to file this appeal, but it's probably not going to happen. They grant me. They grant it. They put in my judge rights and says, he cannot believe that the government on the eve of trial

Starting point is 01:43:25 would file a notice of appeal on the eve of my release. Right. He blast them again. So eventually 20-something days later, 25 days later, I get out. But when you send you back into prison after doing 20 years, you thought you were getting out. It's devastating, right? Emotionally devastating.

Starting point is 01:43:41 So then I get out of prison. I do get out. I think I got $78 or $87, whatever, to my name. I get out like, damn, man, I don't know what I'm going to do. Hopefully I can get a job and maybe I can do one case a month. So I get out of prison immediately, people are like, hey, you're the guy. We need you for my husband. I need you for my brother.

Starting point is 01:43:58 So my first month out of prison, man, I make thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars, man. And I'm doing these cases and I'm getting people out of jail. So I started that Freedom Fighters, paralegal, and prison consultant firm. And I'd tell my brother, man, I think we need to really get a reentry house. And I'm talking about it for a year or two. Like, I need to get this reentry house going. I end up getting the YouTube channel going, all of that. And some dude hits me up.

Starting point is 01:44:20 He said, man, here you always talking about reentry houses, right? Big shout out to Ben. He's like, go find a house. I'm like, what? He said, go find a house. I'm going to buy you a house. I'm like, yeah, right. He's like, now I'm going to buy you a house.

Starting point is 01:44:32 But previously he had sent me these jobs. We're big bills fans. He sent me these Josh Allen autographed jerseys for my two little twin boys. He sent him, you know, donated like $10,000 to me. I'm like, Dan, this dudes are right. He says, go find a house. I'm like, yeah, right. He's like, man, I'm telling you, go find a house.

Starting point is 01:44:46 So I'm like, you, for real? He's like, yeah, I went and found a house. He bought me a $200,000 house, $2,000, and gave me $100,000 to remodel the house. so now I have this reentry house. Yeah, I'm paying him back. Yeah, but still, that's, that's amazing. This is off of YouTube, man.

Starting point is 01:45:01 This dude's a good dude. Yeah. Like, really good dude. Like, he just went to Israel. And he's a tough guy. He owns a big-ass construction company. He worked hard all his life. You would never think, like, some hardcore white dude like that would be donating money,

Starting point is 01:45:12 but he did. And he's just a really good dude. So that's how we got the reentry house going. And then we got another house going now. We got a house that we're establishing now for women. We had this, you know, obviously the snow has been really vicious on the East Coast. And we had this, you know, We put up, you know, hey, people need beds.

Starting point is 01:45:25 You know, you need to come in and get coffee, get warm. We might not have a bed, but you can come here and get warm, whatever, cold yellow. And we had over 100 women hit us up. Like, I need a place to go. I got nowhere to go. So me and my brother got together and said, hey, man, we got to get another house. So we're putting that house, it's been a little bit slow, but we're putting that house together for women. So that women have a place to go.

Starting point is 01:45:44 Whether they're getting out of prison, whether they're struggling with addiction, this is what that house is. And it all goes back to... How many beds are in that house? We got 20 beds in one house. We've got seven beds in another house. We've got a 5,000 square foot house. We've got seven beds, I think, in one house. And the house for the women, we're going to have one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight.

Starting point is 01:46:04 We'll probably have nine beds for women for now. Right. And hopefully we can, you know, build on that and help people that are getting out of prison, people that are struggling with addiction. We, you know, we do meetings. We talk to people. We bring people in. Get them job ready instead of jail ready.

Starting point is 01:46:18 Believe in yourself. And one of the biggest things that I preach is, man, hey, be a father to your kids, man. real men, real fathers, real leaders. Your kids need you. You're not the priority no more. Your kids are the priority. And this takes me back to, you know, the story that we just told with Big Sandy, big, you know, dangerous place. I wrote this book and I'm thinking, ah, you know, the book will help me when I get out.

Starting point is 01:46:38 Maybe I'll make a little money. It'll be my stepping stone. And now, like, you know, we got into the point where we're doing, you know, we just put the documentary together for the film festival. But it's not about me. Some people are, oh, it's really not about me. It's about bringing change or getting people. to really see like, hey, you sent this kid, 24-year-old kid, to prison for 40 years. Yeah,

Starting point is 01:46:56 he made those decisions. He deserved to go to prison, but he doesn't deserve 40 years. Right. You know, this is a story about, hey, you can let people out of federal prison like myself. I got out. I own like four different business. I got the construction company. Got the YouTube company. We got the housing. We, you know, we got the paralegal company. We got a lot of things going on. There's people just like me that deserve to get out. I know, I said some vicious things about Alice Marie Johnson the other day. You know, she's the partners are. She had life. Trump gave her clemency. gave her a pardon. Like I've talked to Alice before personally, like on a personal level.

Starting point is 01:47:27 My right-hand man went to her birthday party a couple months ago. Like, he was invited to the birthday party. And I just feel like, you know, you've been there. You know what it's like the struggle. We watched you when you walked out in that first Super Bowl commercial. Trump gave you clemency, gave you a pardon, made you the pardons are. All these black people in prison think you're going to help save them. But all these people ain't getting out of prison. You've got the president's ear. You're like giving pardons that, like, football players last week. Like, yo, let the people out that are in the position that you were in.

Starting point is 01:47:57 Because there's people in there deserve to get out of prison way more than I did, way more than you did. And we got out and we're doing the right thing with our lives. Why can't those people get a chance? There's all kinds of people in there to deserve a second chance that ain't getting it. And I take, like I said earlier, I take that shit personal, these prison consultants, Alice Johnson, you're at the White House, you're with the president, talking about what you're going to do, like you're the new Harriet Tubman.

Starting point is 01:48:18 Then free the people. If you're the new Harriet Tubman, free the people. these people deserve to get out of prison. I understand you're in prison, you're stabbing people, you're selling K2, you're getting high. You're surviving. You're surviving, but when you're in there stabbing people and stuff, maybe you need to get this thing fixed.

Starting point is 01:48:33 And I'm going to give you an example. I don't know if you ever did a story on Boy George, right? I'm super close with... Boy George? The singer? No, the drug dealer in New York. They called him Boy George. Poor Witton kid went to prison when he was like 21 years old. I'm very close with his attorney, Harlan Proto.

Starting point is 01:48:48 And the judge, he filed his clemency petition. He's been in 30 years. and I know Judge Prescott personally, I sat on a panel with her in Harlan, and she said, hey, you're not doing the right thing in prison. Give me five years of doing the right thing. Now you're a gang member, allegations of selling drugs, stabbing people, knives, weapons, do the right thing and come back in five years. I'll let you out.

Starting point is 01:49:07 He might never get a second chance because he can't do the right thing sometimes. Those people, people are stabbing people, maybe you need to get it together. You know people that are doing the right thing? Yeah, but I also think that you have to take it with a grain of salt. Some people that are involved in those types of things are it's it's survival. I'm not saying, you know, you have to be a vicious guy that's leading the fights. But I mean, some of these guys, it's like if you, and not listen, not in the places I'm at, right? Like not in the medium.

Starting point is 01:49:37 I was in a medium and where if you want to be involved in that, it's kind of your choice, right? Or I was in a low where that's just not happening. But in a pin, like if some guy goes to a pin, like it's like you either join a gang or you be a victim. You want to start arguing on your part? This is the thing. It's good for ratings, though. So, Matt, let me tell you. Now, I'm talking about guys that are sending people on missions.

Starting point is 01:50:00 Like, hey, go stab this dude for no reason. Those are the people that probably, you need to work on some things. I agree. But I'm talking about people that deserve to get out, people that are rehabilitated. Dudes that haven't had a shot in eight years, dudes that got 30, 40 programs under their belt. They're not just doing it for certain. Those people deserve to get out, but Alice Johnson ain't pushing those people. Okay.

Starting point is 01:50:19 Okay, I see what you're saying. I thought you were saying that because sometimes you get a shot because, you know, like they'll use shots and things against you. And it's like, okay, well, he's fucking got up 40 years. And he got drunk on Hooch. Is he stupid? Sure. Yeah, I'm not talking about. But you're not going to hold that.

Starting point is 01:50:33 But they want to hold a lot of these guys. Oh, he got three shots for this. You got shot. Yeah. Come on. This is just prison. It's just stupid. That's just that's what you're going to some of these.

Starting point is 01:50:42 And I'm never drank Hooch or anything. But I'm not going to blame a guy for drinking Hooch and say, oh, you got to do the rest of your fucking 40 year sentence because you've got, you've been. you've been drunk three times. Come on. But they will. I'm with you. But I'm just saying that people deserve a chance. And that's why, you know, the documentary, you know, the reinvention of Chad Marks, we're putting that together, hoping that it goes to the big screen. Yeah, of course, you'll make some money out of it. Of course. That's just, it's the territory. So what happened? Somebody approached you at some point. You get an email from a producer. Like, how does the whole documentary thing work? So this dude hits me up from prison, right?

Starting point is 01:51:16 his father was a senator in Massachusetts. And he says, look, man, I got 20-something years for aid. And I had gotten an incident with this cop, and they gave me more time down in Oklahoma because I kicked them with my shower shoe or whatever, hit him with my shower shoe. So they give him more time for that. His, you know, I didn't know that his dad was a senator

Starting point is 01:51:34 and all that stuff. They're from Boston. And his sister, you know, since, I think his sister paid me to do the case. So we got a compassionate release pending for him, for Billy. And his sister reaches out to me and says, hey, look, you know, I'm involved in Hollywood and, you know, your story resonates. I've watched you on YouTube. I've read your book. Didn't realize, you know, when we hired you who you were.

Starting point is 01:51:54 But I'd like to bring your story to help people like my brother and like yourself, you know, to Hollywood and see if we can do something. I'm like, yeah, okay, sure. You know, that's what you think. Yeah. But eventually, it turns out that she really is who she says she is. You know, the father was a senator for 30 years in Massachusetts. They got a little bit of juice. They got a little bit of poll and she says, hey, I'm going to put this team together and start, you know, pushing this. So she's doing that. And I'm like, okay, now I'm starting to think like, man, this thing kind of seems like it's real, you know, like these people are real. And I'm starting meeting with them and then we start doing Zoom meetings. And they've been pushing this thing for like,

Starting point is 01:52:30 you know, over a year. And that's how it started. They got a team of all women. Got a Hollywood writer, Hollywood producers involved, she's involved, lawyers are involved. And they're like, look, this is what we're doing. And we're at the point now where they're looking for investors and getting the sizzler, the documentary, to the film festival, getting it out to different organizations, and all of that stuff. So that's how it started, and this is where we're at. So hopefully you'll put a link in there. People can hit the link, whether they want to donate or maybe someone sees it and says,

Starting point is 01:53:00 you know what, I do want to invest in this movie. I do want to invest in criminal justice. And, you know, if people can jump on there and check out that link, hit it up, check out the documentary if you like it and you think that it's, you know, it's in line with your purposes. So right now there's a sizzle. Yeah. Okay.

Starting point is 01:53:15 Which is like a three minute. I think, yeah, we got a three minute one and a five minute one. Okay. And you're interviewed on the sizzle and it's cut with B-roll or is it? It's got all different things in there. Okay. You have my voice on there. You have video with me in there from the YouTube channel.

Starting point is 01:53:28 Do they interview other people like prosecutors or anything? Not yet, but that's, we're going there. Okay. With the judge and all that stuff. That's the next step. But really what we're trying to do is bring people into invest in the movie or the Netflix series or whatever. And what are they trying to raise? Oh, we're trying to raise.

Starting point is 01:53:44 trying to raise like 100 million no I don't know the exact amount okay you know but I don't know the exact amount which I probably should know but I don't all right so yeah we can leave a link in the description box and do you have like a web that goes to a website or yeah it goes right to the website they can watch the sizzler they can read about it read about the team read about me my story and you know whatever moves you if you feel like doing something do it you know maybe we'll get some you know some big people involved that you know care about this this topic and about criminal justice reform. You know, we're involved with, you know, some other big law schools are involved

Starting point is 01:54:17 and, you know, we're pushing it. So this is the beginning of it. The reinvention of Chad Marks. So anyway, Matt, like I said, I got out of prison. I started that paralegal, you know, company Freedom Fighters. People can hit me up, Freedom Fighters PC at gmail.com. Freedomfighterspc.com is the website. You can see a bunch of the cases that we want on there.

Starting point is 01:54:34 Also got the YouTube channel. I think we got like 250,000 subscribers, blood on the razor wire TV. been slacking a little bit on the videos because I have a construction company where we're hiring felons that are getting out of prison got a lot of other stuff going on but definitely check out Blood

Starting point is 01:54:48 on the Razor Wire TV the reinvention of Chad marks that link will be up check out the documentary the sizzler and definitely appreciate you bringing me here to Florida thank you.

Starting point is 01:54:58 We had a great dinner last night talked with Matt with my brother made my brother do an interview I don't know but definitely appreciate you appreciate your team and thank you for everything

Starting point is 01:55:06 that you did Hey you guys I appreciate you watching new many favor hit the subscribe button Hit the bell so you get notified of videos just like this. Also, if you go into the description box, we're going to leave all of Chad's links for his YouTube channel. So you can go there and watch his stuff. He's got some great interviews.

Starting point is 01:55:19 He makes documentaries, YouTube documentaries also, which are some great documentaries. So we're going to leave the link there. You can go and subscribe to his channel. He's also going to be starting to interview, do in-person interviews and putting those on the channel. Also, we're going to leave all of his other contacts, his other social media, so you can follow him. We're also going to leave the link to the website. You can go there and donate and watch the sizzle reel for the documentary and donate if you're so inclined to do so. Also, I really appreciate you guys watching.

Starting point is 01:55:51 If you're interested in being a guest, we're going to leave our link in there too. So you can go to our website. You can be a guest, go to be a guest, leave a short video and answer like five questions or something like that. And we'll get back on touch with you. Thank you very much. I appreciate it so much. See you.

Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - How Fraudsters Make Millions Off Prisoners

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