Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - How Inside Edition Exposed a Professional Scammer

Episode Date: March 27, 2026

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This is a bite-sized insider guide. Subscribe now on your favorite podcast platform or watch us on YouTube so you never miss a beat. Let's make sense of this industry together. Inside Edition came to my work and tricked me into going on. Now, I've already been off of probation for two years. This is way behind you. Correct. It's way behind me.

I'm now moving on. And on the video, it says, and he's got one last statement for his victims. That's not how that went down. There's two different articles that I saw, and both the video said video unavailable. There was a lot of comments, like, shouldn't have done that. That's so trashy of you guys. That guy did his time. What if he left there himself?

So they just took it down. It's gone. Look at this. It's playing. This guy is... He's about to be a contestant. How'd you fight it? I lose my job. I happen to call one of my buddies at the old manager that I used to work for. And he says, hey, listen, he goes, I just got off the phone with Teddy, Teddy,

rock him steady. He's up in Ohio. He's got his own telemarketing room, advertising vacant, undeveloped land. So I said, really? He goes, yeah, you want me three away him in? I said, yeah, sure so with this telephone call i thought this is got to be what i'm supposed to do because the three-way call is if you and i are on the phone and then we three-way in somebody else if you hang up or i hang up it disconnects from that third-party person right so he ted's voicemail pops up and ed hangs the phone up well somehow i'm still connected to Ted's voicemail. So I leave him a message to tell him to call me.

So he calls me. So for me, I was like, man, this has got to be fate. We're supposed to disconnect the phone. So. Or maybe it was just a new feature. It could have been. Maybe. I don't know.

But for me, I was like, this has got to be fate. So it takes him about two weeks to convince me to go to Ohio. Wow. Did he tell you like what's going on or what is where does his pitch to get you out there? So I was going to go on out there, learn the business and learn what he was doing. And then we were going to make a satellite office back home. So I was only supposed to come there for the first phone call was come there for maybe like a week. Second phone call turned into a month.

By time we by time you finally convinced me to go there, I was there for three months. I was locked in for three months, which was probably so he knew. can help them get back on the right track. But it was just, come on out here. You'll make a killing. Let's, you know, I know you can sell. Just come on out here and help me out. You guys, we got a girl here managing right now.

She's just not good. I'll make you a manager immediately. And we'll just ride this wave. I was like, all right, cool. So I get out there. They're going under. Oh, yeah, they're going. Yeah, they're going under.

But he didn't tell me that. right away. But I found out shortly after getting her. So I get there. He's like, all right, yeah, here's these people. He's only got like three people, four people, maybe five people that are actually doing the sales portion of it. And then he's got three or four people that are calling everybody and saying, hey, we notice that you own property. Do you want to sell it? Right. So he's calling people that have vacant land. Yep. And he's convincing them to let these guys sell the vacant land. he's promising them a bunch of money for the land. So he's just the in between.

Yeah. So yes and no, because basically what we were is 100% for sale by owner. We were just an advertising company. Right. We would advertise the property, but we would tell these people that had got, come to find out,

they got scammed way back in the 80s on buying this property. Through, there was some other scam that was going on. So do they think it's going to be developed or basically correct. So we call them up and tell them, listen, you know, we can property that's worth like 300 bucks. Hey, listen, we think we can get you $80,000. We're going to advertise it for that 180,000. So now that, whoa, okay. You just see this stuff all the time where it's like it's, yeah, it's real property.

It's really here. It's really zoned where like you could actually develop it. But there's no access to the property. Correct. There's a road here. There's another property here. there's undeveloped land here, but there's no access to it.

Like you'd have to build, yeah, you can build on it this much and be worth this much. Of course, you guys have to build the road. Yep. What? Build the road. Yeah, you're in the sewer,

you got to build it to spec, to, sorry, you have to build it to code for the, for the state code. You got to put in all the drainage, all the electric, all the plumbing, all the, you get all that done and your property's worth $80,000.

You're like, how much does the road cost? Well, that's about $2.59. Right. But none of that stuff was, obviously disclosed because we are it's a for sale by owner we're the advertising firm what you're going to do is advertise it with us right um and then well once somebody calls us and says hey i have a buyer then what we'll do is we're going to put the two of you guys together right we're not we're not we're not a real estate firm we're and these are all things that we did that we did disclose um so

I'm there for about an hour. I'm like, okay, this is easy. I pick up the telephone. I think I made, I think by time my third call came, I'm, on that one call, I did more money than their entire room did the previous week. So, um, I think it was like $498 is what I told the guy we're going to, that we're going to do your property for. So after we're going to advertise his property for $498.

So they have to pay us up front to advertise. So it's just very similar to if you wanted to sell your bicycle in the newspaper. What you got to do is you have to advertise it in the newspaper and you got to pay for it. And then hopefully somebody calls you up and you can sell it. Right. So that's what we were doing is just calling them in telling them that we're going to advertise the property. So I charged this gentleman $498. And then it has to go to the verification process where they actually record it.

And they say, you do know, it's not sold. We're not a real estate agent, all this stuff. And I happen to be outside on the front porch with the owner smoking a cigarette. And the girl who's doing the verification, she comes down and she goes, hey, he said he's got two properties. Is that for one or for both? I go, that's for one. then I go back in there.

Oh, no. Actually, I charge them 1298 for the first one. And then I go back on the phone. I said, sir, I got great news. $4.98 for the second property. You go, oh, okay, perfect. So now, you know, it's like $2,000. I, you know, that I charge a guy.

And I, of course, I made a percentage of that. I can't even remember at that time what my percentage was. So I was like, this is, this is easy. Right. So now this whole advertising vacant undeveloped land and all that stuff in Florida was huge at the time. I hate to interrupt the program, but if you didn't know, my name's Matthew Cox and I spent 13 years in prison for title theft. And this is how easy title theft is. I can be sitting in a Starbucks with my computer.

I can go online, go to public records, get your address, name of the homeowner. I can create a deed, a satisfaction of mortgage, I can file that satisfaction of mortgage, I can then transfer the name of your home into someone else's name, or I can simply create a driver's license in the true homeowner's name. I can then sell the home or borrow against the home, and I can do all of that online sitting in Starbucks. I can apply for the mortgages online. I can open up the bank accounts online.

I can go to the closing online. I can have all the documents notarized online, and I can have all of the money wired into my bank accounts online. I can then transfer that money out of those accounts to other accounts, or maybe I could buy precious metals, I could buy diamonds, and I can have all of that delivered anywhere I want by sitting in Starbucks. That's how easy it is to commit this crime now. And it's happening more and more every single day. If you think that you're not vulnerable, you're dead wrong. Do you know who's a potential victim of this crime? Anybody that owns a house.

Anybody that thinks I can't be a victim is just absolutely dead wrong. I'm telling you right now, if you own a piece of property, you are a potential victim. The only way to stop the crime is to be notified by a monitoring service like Home Title Lock. Home Title Lock monitors your property records, alerts you of any changes, and if you are a victim, they jump in with their team of restoration experts to resolve the issue. You can get a 30-day free trial of their triple lock protection and a complementary title history report by going to home titlelock.com and using promo code Matt 30 or click on the link in the description box. Don't let someone like me catch you off guard. But there's so many regulations here in the state of Florida for telemarking. So the reason why he went to Ohio was because it's unregulated.

You just get your DBA and you're in business. So now basically the manager is there. She's gone. I start doing this. Well, then I come to find out what these guys were doing in Florida where they were putting it on their websites. but they were advertising the land with the homeowner's name and the phone number. So that one is like, these people already paid. Yeah.

They're definitely going to pay again. So I'd go on everybody else's websites and we would call them and say, hey, you know, you're looking to sell your property up. And if they're said 60,000, you know what? I really think maybe we get you like 80,000 for for your property. Like, oh, really? Yeah. Well, it's going to cost you this amount. Oh, okay. Perfect. And they'll just pay again. So, um, so I was there for about two weeks. The owner, him and his wife, they were, like I said, very rocky terms. He decided, you know what? I'm out of here. And he leaves and goes to, Georgia because there's another gentleman who is in Georgia that had the same exact business.

So what he did was he went down there and he basically took the whole database that he had and he started calling all those people. So at this whole time that I'm there in Ohio, I'm calling all these people personally, me, I think that everything I was doing in Ohio was legit. Okay. Now, the owner, he now takes the database and he goes down to Georgia and starts calling all these people and saying, hey, listen, I got great news. Got your property sold. You got to pay half the closing costs, pay that up front, blah, blah, blah, makes this whole spiel. But that's not, that's not. He doesn't haven't sold. He does not. He's actually working for another company that does the exact same thing

that we do. So he was sending out the same contract that we were sending out that states, it's just advertising. So he was just getting these people to sign it and send it back, but charging a lot more money. But in his mind, it's not my company. Right. Yeah. And then for me, what my thought process was, whatever he's doing, that's on him. That's got nothing to do with me. I'm, I'm here and I'm doing this. So. But you're now running his old company. I'm running his old company, his wife and I. Okay. So we were, we were doing everything I felt as legit as possible. I mean, we, we had attorney general complaints that, you know, they paid, the property didn't get sold, you know, all these things. But,

every single one of them was answered. Attorney General said, yeah, you know what? You're perfectly fine. You're doing everything okay. So in between these times, Ted comes back home to Ohio. You know, could have been for a couple of weeks or, you know, months, whatever it was. So him and I were sitting there one night and we were like, man, how can we make some more money? So I'm like, I can't remember if it was his idea or my idea.

but we said, VIP. So everybody who has already signed up, we'll call them up and tell them, listen, we got a VIP package that we'll put you on. And we, instead of them being on the other part of the website and the inventory,

they're going to be right on the front page of our website, all this kind of stuff, which was just a link basically to then get to the other page that was on there. So now we're calling all these people. Great news. We got the VIP package. Things are starting to ramp up.

We were telling people that we were doing these seminars, which he was doing seminars before I got there. And you look at some of his seminars that was doing. There's like three people in the audience. Right. But you couldn't see them. And there were workers that worked for them. A suit that was like six times too.

But it just, you could just tell it probably wasn't. But I mean, we're not lying. We did do a seminar before. Are any of these properties selling? No, I don't think one ever sold ever the whole time. But people pay 400 bucks. But here's the thing that we weren't, we weren't selling property. We were advertising the property.

So that's how me and my own mind, I was justifying it. At Medcan, we know that life's greatest moments are built on a foundation of good health From the big milestones to the quiet winds. That's why our annual health assessment offers a physician-led, full-body checkup that provides a clear picture of your health today. And may uncover early signs of conditions like heart disease and cancer. The healthier you means more moments to cherish. Take control of your well-being and book an assessment today.

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westjet.com slash 30 years. It's like, I don't really care if these people's property ever sell because one of the rebuttals were, well, what happened? Like, you know, like, what if it doesn't sell? Well, Folks, it's just like if you advertised your old rusty bicycle that you have in the garage in the newspaper for seven days and it doesn't sell, can you call the newspaper back and say, I'd like my money back because it didn't sell? No. But you're paying for a 90-day advertisement. And if it doesn't sell in those 90 days, we are going to continue to advertise the property until it sells a 90-day advertisement. it. And if it doesn't sell in those 90 days, we are going to continue to advertise the property until it sells for no extra charge. It doesn't make sense. That's just, that's just, so basically you're just putting it on my web on the website. There is no 90 days. It's going to stay there. Sell it. But when you're, yes, it doesn't make sense to to you or to I or, you know,

to the, I guess maybe to our type of mind. But at the same time, when you're pitching it, on the telephone. It's for a 90-day advertising advertising, but if it doesn't sell in those 90 days, we'll continue to advertise it for until it sells. So it's really unlimited, unlimited

advertising. But so... And what's the advertising? Is just on your website, it's just listed? Like, is there any cost to actually? You're not paying Google to fucking direct people there. You're not doing any marketing. Nope. It's literally 100% on

our website and that's it. It's just a website. It's just a website that he built and then we would have the girl in the office or somebody there in the office. They would go on and they would find the parcel. They'd make a description of it and they would put it right on the website. So we were doing what we said we were doing because it is being advertised. But most people probably thought it was going to be a lot more.

advertising than what it was. So illegal, probably not unethical, probably so. So now at this point, I start to go back and forth from Ohio to New York because I still have my girlfriend there, but then the receptionist who was 21 years old, that 19 years old, her and I, we started to chat a little bit. And I was 23, 24 or something like that, maybe 25. And I think I was like 25. So we started chatting it up. So that really wasn't going that well, but it was going well. But my home life was falling apart at the same time.

So I come back home and back to New York and then I would tell them, I want to go for like maybe a couple weeks, but I'd stay there back home for like three months. Then I'd come back, make a couple more dollars. And I'd go back. And at this whole time, I'm still doing everything that I thought was legit. So then I go back home now because now she's going to have the baby, my girlfriend. She can have the baby because now she's pregnant again. Not again, but she's pregnant. So I'm going to have another child again.

And my plan was to go home, hang there for a week, wait until everything. I knew everything was okay and then go back and then maybe bring her there, possibly maybe. But that was going to be very hard because the receptionist was still there. So I was living two different lives, you know, one in Ohio and then one. home. How much money are you making? Um, at this point, I was making, I was making okay money. Maybe, you know, three grand a week. Um, you know, it was, it was okay. Yeah, it was, it was okay money. That's the $12,000 a month, $12,000 a month in Florida right now is making, that's a ton of money. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't, but then there would be money, there would be weeks where I just

didn't care and I'd make five, six, seven hundred bucks. But eventually I negotiated that I was getting paid off of the whole room. So the whole room. So the whole room. had to make X amount of dollars. I was getting a sell. So eventually I negotiated a pretty okay money. And but there would be, you know, I got the big check idas where last week, you know, I get a real big check. This week, yeah, screw it.

I can live off of that plus whatever. So now my son's born, my second son. And when he's born, immediately as soon as I held him, I just looked at his mom and said, yeah, I'm not going back. Just not going to happen. So I decided, well, actually, all right, I'll just start my own room here. So the way it worked is if you paid over the phone, I couldn't get a credit card merchant because I didn't have enough time with the business or anything like that.

So I couldn't get a merchant to be able to take credit cards over the phone. And this is well before Apple Pay and, you know, all that kind of stuff and Venmo. So they would give me their routing in account numbers and I would go to Staples and get the three checks that were there and I would have to put it input it, their routing number, their account number. So technically it was still a check. Yeah. And I would go and deposit it into the business bank account and I would get $15, $20,000, $30,000 at a time or in a week or something like that and deposit. it, but then what the customers were doing is they were saying, I never wrote that check. And because there's not their signature or anything like that, I was getting overdrawn like crazy.

It just didn't work out for me the way I wanted to. I went and got this office, hired some people, thought it was just going to be great and all this stuff. And I was just going to do it with just checks and I'd be okay. And it just didn't work out. So at this point now, my son's mom and I would decide, you know what, maybe we'll move to Florida. So I get a call from Ted's wife and, because she hears that I might be getting ready to move to Florida. She's like, all right, listen, so what we'll do, I'll have you come on down here to Florida.

and we'll just use cell phones because they still had the office still in Ohio, but it was just, it was just running on fumes. It just was nothing. So I come down, I come down to Florida and now we're using cell phones, calling people saying that all the same stuff that we're supposed to be saying. but Ted the owner on the side he is still working for other people now the other places shut down

there's another one now he's working for another guy and so I would do the legit stuff that I thought during the day and then at night we'd call people and say hey got great news your property is already sold you got to pay half the closing cost and all the stuff. We just started basically lying to people. So I feel, for my own self, is I feel a lot of the stuff that I did in Ohio, legal, unethical, sure. But then once I came back down to Florida, they were supposed to open up their own store

or their own office here in Florida. And I was going to run that. We still to this day have never opened up that office because, go ahead. I'm sorry, I was going to say, I mean, what happened when you tell somebody, hey, the closing costs are $1,000, you got to pay $500 up front? They send you the $500 and there's never a closing. Yeah, so you, that's because. I'm assuming at some point, within a week or so, they're like, when are we closed? Oh, yeah, no, no, no.

The closings didn't happen in a week. It was more, most of the time was like 45, 60 days because we've got to get all the paperwork. We're backed up, all this kind of stuff. So when they were calling them originally and selling them, we got the closing. Right. And then we're getting ready to. You got to pay half the closing costs, which half the closing costs is $3,000. Is that's their portion.

It's $3,000. It's really $6,000. We've convinced the seller or the buyer to pay the other. So your closing date. So if we're at, you know, we'd just make up a date 30 days from now. And yep, that's the date that's the date that. you're going to close. So they're getting all excited. When that date comes, oh, yeah, you know what? Nope. We're not ready yet. And we just continue to keep pushing and pushing them and pushing them

60, 90 days. Correct. At some point, though, don't they have to say, hey, you don't want, send me my money back? Who are these buyers? Well, yes and no. So what happens is there's all of these different companies. and Ted convinces people to start opening up these companies and he'll work for him because he's like the man at doing this. So now what happens is if I call you and I say, hey, Matt, listen, I got your property sold. You got to pay half to close. You guys, okay, yeah, sure. Then they pay. So now that's ABC company.

Now I call you from XYZ company. Say, man, I got bad news. unfortunately that buyer closed down but i got good news i've got a new buyer for you but i got even better news they're willing not to 80,000 they're willing to pay 120,000 we're also going to get your refund for the closing from that company could take some time to get that refund but to get you the 120 you got to have you pay the closing cost here for this one So now we're double triple dipping, you know, different people and different companies. But then, um, horrible.

Yeah. Yeah. And then they just get strung along, strung along, strung along. Strong, strung along for, yeah, for as long as we can possibly string along. I don't think we've ever refunded anybody. Did you ever get phone calls from the police? I mean, at some point these guys, people have to go to the cops and be like, listen. Not one time.

Holy- Never. Never. The cops never called us. No lawyers. They never got their lawyers? Nothing. Nothing at all.

And of course, you know, the media portrays it as this, you know, only talking to old people and this, they got no idea. They don't want it to. It was everybody. If, if their name was on the list, they were, they were getting a call. We couldn't tell if the person was 90 years old, 70 years old. 70 years older or 20 years old. Right. We couldn't tell. And don't get me wrong. There were, yes, majority of them were older. And I think more that they were older is because

they had got scammed when they were 20, when they originally had bought this property, thinking that it was going to get developed originally. Did you ever have anybody that you had to give the money back or that? No, I don't think we ever gave anybody back their money for that, not at all. You have some people call up just pissed yelling, screaming or? Yeah, but, you know, we're sales guys. We just schmooze them over and, you know, give you a call back tomorrow, let you know what's going on.

Then you call them up and got great news. Something happened with that buyer. Is there any particular ones that you've been able to like double up multiple times? Like, oh, like this is the second buyer canceled, but now I got a third one. Yeah. So in my discovery. In my discovery, they got text messages. Me in New York and then Ted here and we, and there's a whole ring of guys that we're doing this.

And we're all exchanging names and telephone numbers. Yeah, I signed this guy up. He's already bought twice. And then somebody else is hitting him up. And so that's how they got us for conspiracy because we were all conspiring. Right, right. To scam these people. each and everyone but um so my wife told me make sure i sound very remorseful not to be

no no no no don't do that don't do that doesn't make for a good episode but it has to be the last 10 minutes yeah yeah yeah i know this is wrong yeah i was in a bad spot no it wasn't it's not like that even to today i mean i i i i laugh about it because it's it's as weird as it is and as cliche as it is I wouldn't take none of it back. Right. I just wouldn't because if if I did, then I probably wouldn't be, I wouldn't be, I would have found something else to do. Yeah. I would have found something else to do and figure it out because that's just, I'm the, I'm the easy way out kind of guy. But so now I come down to Florida and we were just.

now it got to a point to where we just said screw ohio all together we're just going to 100% call everybody and we're just calling all these people and saying hey listen we got your property sold congratulations so we're going to we're going to do this so after getting them a couple of times so now back to your question is how did we string them along you know what we forgot you got to pay the capital gains tax. So now you have to pay the capital gains tax on the property. Sorry about that. That's our fault. Nobody's more upset about this than me. Correct. I know you're upset. Me too. I told Bob. That's why Bob doesn't work here. Yeah, by the way. Absolutely. And you wouldn't believe how many times I would pay on the phone. In communities across Canada, hourly Amazon employees,

earn an average of over $24.50 an hour. Employees also have the opportunity to grow their skills and their paycheck by enrolling in free skills training programs for in-demand fields like software development and information technology. Learn more at aboutamazon.ca. You know what? I'm not really sure. Hold on. Let me grab a manager. Yep. And it's just me. All I did was switch ears and switch. So, So now you got to pay capital gains tax.

And it got to a point to where we weren't even working for anybody anymore. Right. It was just Ted and I sitting on his back porch, smoking cigarettes, wandering around in his yard and calling people off of seven different cell phones that we both just had sitting in front of us, burner phones. And now they're sending us money via Western Union. and money grant. So no longer checks, credit card, none of that stuff. So we were just like, well, you got to send it to us through Western Union? Why do we got to send it through Western Union? It's the fastest way for us to get the monies. And we don't have to worry about anything, you know,

with the electronic. Would you rather get the money faster or do you want us to wait? So it just got to a point to where we were just literally calling people. And he still had his office here in Florida where we were going to open up. So now we're just sitting in there, him in one office and me in another office. And I would have friends of mine and friends of his go around all day long to Western Union and to MoneyGram picking up these money. So if I was, you were going to go pick it up, I'd send it in Matt Cox's names. They're like, well, who's that? He's the owner. He's the assessor. He's the, you know, whatever it was.

And like, why are we sending it to him? Well, because it's Western Union MoneyGrant. You can't send it in businesses. And the own, we were getting, it was just a ridiculous amount that we were getting a week through Western Union MoneyGram. I don't even think to this day I'm allowed to use Western Union or MoneyGram. You know what's so funny is like as he's talking. talking about this. I'm thinking to myself, like, how could you even hold them off even longer? You know, like to me, holding them off even longer, be like, once you get them once and you get them twice, then you could say, hey, you could set up like a fake title company, which is just to be like an email address with a website and a phone number.

And then you could actually print up like a disclosure, a set of disclosures and a set of like a HUD statement, a closing statement. and then mail it to them, tell them they have to get it notarized, mail it back. Then when they say, when do I get my check? Well, you signed it.

We have to have the buyer sign it. So we're mailing it to the buyer, mailing it back. Okay, now that we've got it, all right, so we've got it. We're waiting for their lender

to fund the money. Like, you could drag that out another three weeks, maybe even a month. Yeah. And you could even mail them a check that they could deposit into their bank account. You know what I'm saying?

Like, and then that takes, Of course, their bank account probably looks good for about a week or two. And then, of course, it bounces. And then, of course, that starts the whole thing. What do you mean at bounce? That was our escrow account. Hold on.

Let me get in touch with Todd. I'm going to have Todd call you back. You drag it off another week. Like, you could drag that out six weeks before they finally realize, like, oh, my God, this is all a scam. But that's another six weeks. Then you shut everything down, start it up all over again, do it with a whole new set of people. We weren't, yeah, at this point, we weren't even. he had a he had a name for a second LLC so if somebody Googled it they can which was nationwide land sales

right so what I would do they would where are you calling from nationwide you know nationwide is on your side right and I would I would say that jingle right but I never said I was nationwide insurance right so immediately though it gives credibility just gives the credibility so even though I never said I was nationwide insurance, which I obviously I knew what I was doing. Right. It's not my fault if they made that late. Yeah, it's not that's not my fault. Oh, is that what you thought I meant? Oh, I'm so sorry. That's my fault. Yep, my, my, my, I apologize. So I, so we started just getting, I mean, hundreds of thousands of dollars a week in Western Union. And we so now you got to pay, your property gains tax.

Then I can't remember, and I still, and I've been trying for years to remember what it was, is one day I was just on the phone and just pulled it out of thin air. Well, you got to pay, and I can't remember what I called it, but what you do is you have to pay to, because you have to cross over somebody else's property to get to yours. As an easement. Yeah, but that's, I just called it.

You made up a name. I made up a name for it. And so now we have to get, you have to pay for that now because we have to get permission to cross their property to get to yours to even do the assessment and the, the, the land survey and all that. So we can't just walk across their property. Right. And they're like, oh, okay.

And so we just started, we just were continuing to make up all sorts of different fees that they had to continue to keep paying to drag it out. And we just we just did that for a long time for a few months. It's funny. I met a guy in prison, which is where typically prior to this podcast is where I met people, like yourself. And he had worked a phone room where they were selling timeshares. Yeah. And then eventually he quit or got fired.

I forget what it was. And he was in New York. And he would go, he eventually, when he left one of the jobs, he got the list. They had a list. Like he's like, I knew where they had the list. They would give us the phone numbers, the call or whatever. And he was like, it wasn't on a dial system. Like, you're dialing these people and you're explaining that, you know, or you're trying to sell them.

He's like, well, I got. got the list. You know what they were doing? They were selling time shares for people that already had time shares. Yeah, yeah. We're listing it on your site. The same thing. We're going to list it on our website. We're going to advertise and try and get it sold. We do seminars, all the same, same, you know, that basic scam. They pay 400 bucks, a thousand bucks. So what he did was he went and got that list when he got, he got the list and he got fired or he quit and knew he's quitting. Somehow I know that he got the list. And he said, what's funny is you could call other phone rooms and get the list of people they'd already called,

and you could buy that list. He goes, which for nothing. Correct. So he said, I went and got a couple cell phones, he and a couple other guys. And he said, we started calling those, but he said, we changed it. He said, because that was like a legitimate,

like you're saying, like it kind of like a legitimate thing. Yep. Where we're putting it on the website. Like, we know what you expect, but that's not what's really happening. We're putting on a website that nobody ever goes to. We're not advertising the website.

Like, we know you're not going to sell it. And in the phone, he's like, you did okay. He's like he made like a thousand. couple thousand a week doing that. And he said, but then when he got the list, he said, and what we decided to do was like, how can we do this so that it doesn't come back on us?

So one, we get burner phones. Okay. He said, and two, we started calling the list. But what we did was they would call these people and say, hey, listen, I noticed that he said, and keep mind too, we could look it up and see like they were, that they were behind. They hadn't paid their association to it in like five.

years or something like they owe like 20,000 in association dues he just call them up and we'd say hey and he was like initially they kind of think you're like a collection agent we're calling about this property and they'd be like oh yeah what about that property I don't even go I don't even I don't know nothing to do with that brother they're like no no sir the building's been sold but the closing is in about you know two weeks and he said they're like okay they're like well you still own the building that deed is in your name so we're calling let you know because the building is going it's going to become condos or be bulldoes or putting up a trump towers whatever it is right and he says they're like you bought that property for

$80,000 well it's been assessed based on the new sale of the building at $140,000 you're going to make $60,000 you know here's the issue is that you're and he said it would be different sometimes it would say look but we we can't sell it because you have your 20,000 in arrears. Right. You have to pay the $20,000. And they go, oh, can't you just take it out? He's like, no, listen, you don't seem to understand.

Like, we're, and he would say he was an attorney. You know, I'm an attorney. We're doing one or two things. We have to, by law, we have to give you the, we have to give you the option to pay the arrears or we're filing like a suit for quiet title. And we're just going to take the property from you. You'll get nothing. Now, granted, you won't owe the, or no, I think you say you'd still owe the 20,000,

or you wouldn't, whatever. it was. The point is that if you pay us to 20,000, then I can get you the 60. Right. But I can't do it simultaneously. You have to pay first. And they would go like, oh my God. And he's like, you understand. So he said these people would pay 12,000, 14,000, 20,000, 10,000. And this guy was vicious. He would laugh. He'd go, he'd go, oh, God, man, you'd go, the old people are the easiest. And he would laugh about And he had this laugh that was so cringe. It was so he was like, he's like, he's like, yeah. It was like, you get this like, you're like, oh, God, you're like, you give.

I used to tell him, it's like, you make, you give, you give con men a bad name. Yeah, I know, right? And it was like, and he, he had this. He had a big nose and he, he was so, ugh, he was just grinding. You know what he looked like the beat, one of the, like the guys of the Beastie boys. Oh, yeah. Just, ugh. So, like, try.

And so anyway, what happens is he, um, he was telling me this and he would laugh about it. And he'd say, so he'd get to, I go, well, where do you get the 20,000? What did they say the 20,000? He goes, listen to this. This is how we got busted. Funny you say that because you asked that because this is how we got busted. So he says, he just keep in mind, we're going to clubs in New York. Yeah. Because we're pulling up in, and we're pulling up in a limos and, you know, Hummer limos and like all these, because he hasn't worked you for this before. He's like, we're, we're going to. getting out. We'd go, we're buying. We got VIP. We're buying. You know, they're just, you know, really living it up. He's like, well, you know, because of that, because we're spending

money, he's like, girls like come to you right away. He's, we're dancing with these hot fucking chicks. They're amazing looking. And they'd be like, what do you do for a living? And I tell them, oh, I said, we sell this. We did it. He's not just tell them. It's just scam. We run a fuck. We run scams. And the girls would say, well, God, man, how could I make some money? How could I get it on it? He'd go, look, you want to make some money? Here's what we'll do. He goes, you've got a bank account? Yeah, well, here's what we'll do. We'll put the money.

We'll have them send you money. You just cash out the money and give us the cash. And we'll give you 20% or 30% or 50% or whatever it was. And of course, they're thinking, oh, my God, like, he's like, and then, you know, and if they said something like, will the cops show up or will I get in trouble? They go, well, then when they show up, you just said, I met some guy in a fucking bar. And he told me that to, you know, to let him, he said he's going to wire some money to me. And I had to cash out the money and give him the money.

and I just thought I was doing a favor for a friend. He's like, you can give my cell number and everything, my name, everything. Because keep in mind, he already knows that they don't know his name. Right. I've already introduced myself. I knew this was coming way before you. I told your name. My name was Dan, you know, whatever, you know, Bradley.

And I'll give you my cell phone number. You just have them call me and, you know, they're not going to arrest you. And it was just funny, too, because they typically don't. Correct. Like typically the money went in. I cashed out. I got 12 grand over the course of two days. I cashed out the money.

And I gave you $8,000 or $10,000. And I kept two. And he's like, oh, I go, don't the girls ever take off with it? Because we've had a couple girls take off. What we explained to him is that we're going to do this over and over and over again. He said, they're not stupid. He's like, they think I could make $100,000 in a month. But yeah, I have to cash out and give them $200, but I'll still make $100 or whatever their cut is.

Like, it'd be stupid for me to take the first $10,000. and dollars and not hold out the month for the hundred. He goes, and as soon as they see it once, he says, most of them say, okay, they're not drug addicts. You know, like, they're drug addict. They'll just take the 10 and run. So anyway, he's doing this. And here's what happens is one of his buddies. He's like, you understand we never took them to our houses. They never knew our names. They never had a real cell phone, or real phone numbers. They had the number we gave them. He said, this was something we did on a weekly basis. So we're getting these girls. Every week, we're getting at least one or two girls. And we're just having these people wire the money to their

accounts. And then they're cashing it out over the course of several days over and over. Sometimes the bank accounts get shut down because, you know, the bank says something's weird. You'd have hundreds of thousand dollars going to your account. Sometimes we'd have them go out and open a couple accounts and they do it on multiple accounts. He isn't, you know, we lose some money. He's like, what does it matter? You're making $300,000 and you only ended up with 150 of the $300,000. Correct. It's what's the matter? He's like, we're barely even working. Yeah, who cares. Anyway, the point is, is one of the guys, he's like, hooks up with a girl, falls in love of her. tells her eventually tells her what his real name is, brings her back to his house.

And the FBI shows up at her place three months later. Because she does it for like 100,000. They shut off the accounts, everything. Three months later, FBI shows up. She immediately gives him up, brings him to the guy's house. They grabbed the guy. He gives up this guy. This guy ends up going to prison for.

And listen, it was, it was millions. Wasn't like half a million dollars. I mean, it was like in the millions. Like he's got like one, two, three million dollars. And he owed like three million. And he got like four years or something like that. And I mean, I would love to get him on the podcast because he wasn't just unremorseful, which is fine. I have no problem with it.

If you're not remorseful because I understand the mindset. He was, he delighted in it. He loved what he did. And he had so many stories of. people, oh, I'm going to call my financial manager. He'd be like, what? You don't need to call your and he'd argue with these old people. Or he'd, or they, the financial manager would call it. He'd explain the whole situation, the financial manager. You don't need AI agents, which may sound weird coming from service now, the leader in AI agents. The truth is, AI agents need you. Sure,

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They're hunting us. It's time we started hunting them. I can work with that. This should be tons of fun. Marvel television's Daredevil, Born Again, now streaming only on Disney Plus. He's just a finance manner. It doesn't have a fucking clue. And he'd be like, that sounds reasonable.

Like, no, it doesn't. It doesn't sound reasonable at all. But he doesn't know the laws in Florida. He doesn't know real estate law. He doesn't. He's a financial manager. You know what I'm saying? Like I buy stocks and I buy annuities and I manage your stock portfolio.

I don't know anything about real estate in Florida. Yeah, how it all works. Right. And this kid was, listen, he would rattle off. He would rattle off his spiel. And I'm sitting here with him wearing prison greens in a fucking unit, in a prison unit, sitting in my cell. And I thought, fuck, this guy sounds convincing. like I actually you I know I know real estate inside now and damn he had a spiel I mean I was like

you're good you're good like I was like wow and he had so many horrific stories about clipping these people once and then going back and getting them again and then getting them again and I was like I don't understand he's like yeah he's like this was a he's like oh you don't understand this guy was a he was a you know he worked in a whatever in a warehouse and he made DC made good money And yeah, I got that guy for $25,000. The first time I got him for six. The next time I got him for 12. The next time I got him for four.

It was like total of like $22,000. He was like, yeah. And eventually he goes, he would have kept paying. You just didn't have any more money. I was like, you know, because he would do the same thing. It'd be something else and something else and something else. Now you got to pay the lawyer fee. And now you got to pay this fee.

Yeah, we had those two where, you know, the people would just, where they would have, they'd still pay today. Right. Because to them, they thought, these people thought they were getting 50 grand or 60 or 80. grand. Yeah, it's worth it. Typically, he said it typically broke down when they would start to go to family members to get the money. And then the family member would go, the fuck are you talking about? Yeah. You want to borrow $8,000. How much have you paid these people? Well, I've already paid them this much money. He's like, you know, and they'd get on the phone with me and we'd start arguing.

And they'd be like, it's a scam. And I'd be like, ah, fuck. And I'd hang up the phone. And he would just laugh and laugh about it. It was just, it's funny because thinking about him, laughing makes me want to laugh even though he was such a horrible horrible individual I mean it was just he was just the worst the worst where does it do you know where he lives now he was from New York he was a typical New Yorker I mean he was very no offense no very very just you know a New York con man that unrepentant unremorseful he was one of those guys that would the the the the cops would go and during count you know when they count everybody right yeah so they're walking through can you have to be completely quiet and somebody would say something and then like

he would say something he drops up dude something and then he'd go um and the cops who said that who said he'd be like go fuck your mother and they'd be like who the fuck said and the cops would go nuts because they they're on a power truck oh yeah and they scream and holler and they walk up and down and And then they'd be like, okay, well, guess what? You're, you're staying in yourselves the rest of the fucking night. You're not watching TV. You're not this. So now the other guys are like, yo, bro, you better fucking, you want a mouth,

mouth, and then he's like, fuck them. It's like, no, no, you're fucking all the bus now. And then he got to, he eventually, that happened like a couple times with this guy. He was that kind of a jackass. He thought it was funny. And eventually, you know, these guys are literally like, like, like the cops are like I'm going to count the next fucking cell or the next unit and they leave knowing the other inmates are going to step to this guy and this right five or six guys

walk in front of his fucking cells that we'll beat your fucking ass if you don't fuck it he'd cower you know he's up you'd been one of those guys that's he's six foot two when he's on the telephone but in front of you he back he buckles yeah there's just a jackass do you know um Do you have like an idea of how much, like what's the most that you've been able string along one person for? Like a ballpark? Man, I, I think, I think the one was like 37 grand. And how much do you think, and how much you think their property was worth, like actually? A couple hundred bucks.

Yeah. Oh, God. Oh, my God. Just a few hundred bucks. To the money thing, does having all that money come through Western Union, does that not bring up red flags? Well, he's having it go to different people. Yeah, different people. I mean, but, I mean, I did have the core people.

Okay, sorry. Sometimes I miss some details because I'm like writing down notes of like TikToks and stuff. So if he's constantly having kind of having different people go, then at some point Western Union might be like, this guy has received $40,000 in a month. And he's coming here. He's getting it out in cash. Something's wrong. Yeah. And then they might flag you and say, no, no, no, you can't come back.

And then we would run into people going to MoneyGram or Western Union and saying, yeah, I got to send this money. They're like, well, what's it? Do you know who they? Well, no, they just called me and they, yeah, I don't really think you should. And there's been times where I was on the phone with the Western Union or the money grant person. And sometimes, sometimes they'd be like, nah, screw off. I don't, I don't think you should do this. And other times I convince the money gram or Western Union employee that's none of their damn

business. Right. And then they're like, yeah, actually, you know what? This does sound okay. Yeah. And then they went. Have you gone to the website? Are you interested in property?

Right. Oh, yeah. Yeah. All that, all that kind of stuff. You know, you just start making small talk with them. What's so? Nationwide. Yeah.

Yeah. What's so. Yeah. If you use the same logo, the same. You use some of some similarities, people would think. Yeah. And I mean, and that was really just. it you know if you get somebody else on the phone you know at the once i one day just was like

nationwide is on your side i was like this is this is perfect you know i had it would be great so one time i was buying houses in an area and i would renovate the house i'm buying these houses for 60 grand and i'd go and renovated i'd put they were really honestly most of them were already renovated but they were just shitholes like it like renovated badly going for 60s 70,000. Like, they're just horrible houses. But from a, if you took a photo from the outside, like it's got, it's got vinyl siding on it. It's got new carpet. I mean, are the, are the floors cock eyed? Yes. Is it, or is the, are the cock this much cock between the, you know what I'm saying? Like the, the, the, the, the home depot kitchen. Yeah. That's in there. It's all level

and everything. But I mean, the floors are wavy. They've got linoleum down, new linoleum. But so for a photograph, it looked okay. If you walked in there. If you dropped a soccer ball on the Floyd, roll to the corner. You know, these are bad houses. And so I bought these from a shitty guy who renovated houses. He did a shit job. Yep.

So what I did was I went around the whole area and I put up these signs that said Nashville Restoration Project. And then I put the website on the side of the sign. These were big. These are like maybe 30 inches by 48 inches. and they're the vinyl siding, and I would put like a metal bar, you know, on the porch. So the signs are very, they look very professional. And if you went to the website, there's a website.

Well, the color scheme was exactly the same color scheme, font, everything for what's called the, it's called a future comp plan. So every city has a comprehensive plan for their future developments and that the city tries to help kind of say, hey, in this area, we'd like to make this a commercial area. This should be multifamily. This should be multi-use. Here's industrial. They try and gear.

And of course, they do zoning, but then they try and add incentives. Or some areas, we're trying to get contractors coming here and renovate this area. We want to make this a historic area. Right. So I put up these signs and you'd. So if you went to my website, it was connected. I had all the links to their site. And so if you were in the renovation business or construction business or residential construction business, you thought this was

connected with the city's future comp plan. And in that, I talk about how the projects, this was right next to the projects in Nashville. And I talked about in there how the projects was scheduled to be, they were going to start evacuating or, you know, basically removing people from that within a year. And within two years, the entire projects were going to be demolished and they were

building a new residential area or neighborhood where they were, which is something they do. But this was absolutely not happening, by the way. But I put these signs all over these things, and I would buy these properties for $60,000, and I would record the sales for $200, $210, $215, $195, $180. So when I would have an appraiser come over and look at the property, he'd walk through the whole property, and he would say so what do you what do you think it's worth thinking i don't know if he's going to buy it right like there's tons of houses that are selling for 40,000 60,000 and he goes well you know a year ago I'd have told you this was worth about 50 60 grand and he said but you know now that the he was now the Nashville restoration project has come in the area because it's it's worth at least 200 and i say

you hold on to this it's going to be worth about 350 in a year or so you got a good deal and i'd go what's the Nashville restoration project and he'd go well it's is one of these big developers they come in. He goes, they came into Germantown about 10 years ago, renovated the entire area, which is hilarious because I came up with this a month ago. It's not even really incorporated yet. I incorporated it two or three months later because it had such a buzz. And yet he had been to the website. He'd seen all the renovations. He'd seen all the properties. He'd seen all the, he'd read all about it. And so he's telling me, yeah, well, you know the property. He goes, you know, the, um, uh, the projects are coming down next year.

don't you? I said, no, I didn't know that. He's like, oh, yeah, yeah. Then he added, they went into a German town, which was on the other side of Nashville, about 10 years ago. He said, you can't buy anything over there for less than half a million to a million dollars. I was like, wow, man, what do you think this is worth? Oh, it's worth at least 200, 200,000. I was like, oh, okay. You're right, but the connection for that credibility. And he was, he was like, oh, you know, they work with the city. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, okay, I didn't know. that way told me all about it everything he told me was on my website except for the germantown thing which he added i love that he added the fiction to it right but it was it was great you're right

it's that connection to something legitimate yeah because all that's all it is just give me credibility on on that so i was just like i don't even know how the hell i thought about it just popped in my head one day and let's go with the jingle so what so what how long did you do this um um So at this point, we did it. The Western Union, I think we might have did it for like four or five, maybe six months. Right. On the Western Union, because I think it was, we were already under investigation at that time. And we didn't know it.

How did they get on to you? So the state of Ohio is where everything had started. So they said that they had got a bunch of attorney general complaints. But at the same time, all of those attorney general complaints were all answered and answered back that we're doing okay. So when he took the database from Ohio and brought it to Georgia and Florida, what I think happened is, is I think they just started to connect because now people are starting to call. Yeah. Their own attorney generals and this company and that company. and now they're starting to, you know, figure it out that it originated here, but what's really

going on. So I think that they just started to see certain things. But we were under investigation for like 18 months before they ever came because I, one day I'm supposed to go into work and go to the porch. Well, yeah, we're going to actually go to the office. But that day, I think we're supposed to go to the office. but he's supposed to call me or shoot me a text and let me know when he's coming in well it gets like 11 30 12 o'clock what still don't hear from i'm calling texting nobody's answer him or his wife so i said all right well whatever so my girlfriend at the time my son's mom um she went to the gym

and it happened to be trash night the night before so the trash can's still down at the the road she just calls me how to say i'm turning down the road right now I'll be there in just a minute. So, all right, no problem. So I'm just going to go get the trash cans. So I happen to go outside and I see this car drive by my house. I live on the cul-de-sac. They turn around and then they park diagonal from my house, two or three,

probably about two houses down. She pulls in the driveway. I said, all right, get ready. Fed's are here. I just knew. So she said, what? I said, yeah, you heard me. So let's get ready.

she said all right so we uh of course the two guys pull up in the suits which i didn't know it at the time i just thought yeah you know the feds you still hadn't heard from your business still had not how long was the same day same exact day so they raided their house at like six in the morning right so they're not calling because they're not calling because they're not able to call so they two guys in suits uh the bc u the bureau of we don't know the bcii bureau bureau of criminal investigation from the state of Ohio. They walk up and like, hey, can we come inside? Nah, we'll talk right here.

What's up? What's going on? And the day before, I bought the huge DLP, Mitsubishi, it's TV, 83 inches. The box is still in the garage. I got the garage door open. The guy is like puts his clipboard and everything right on the box and we're talking. Now, my son's mom, she's all about the good fellas, about. when they come, you know, they were spitting on the floor and me.

I'm asking, do you guys want water? Right. So she's, you guys want any water? You guys want coffee? I was just about to cook something. Are you guys hungry? She's playing all that, you know, that whole role. And I'm just answering, you know, they're asking me some questions about what's going on.

And all of a sudden, I just feel my phone in my pocket. It's just now it's going crazy in my pocket. I'm like, guys, I got to go to bathroom. So, like, go inside. I'm getting pages, text 911, 911. Yeah, I already know they're here right now. So I go back. Who is that?

That's Ted and his wife calling and texting me. So I don't know how, I don't even know how the heck they even could text me because they took like every electronic device. Maybe at that time when she was texting me, they hadn't. confiscated their phones yet. But they, so they're there for like a half an hour, but it's more or less like a yes, no type of answers is all, is all I was given them. And, uh, did you work here? Yes. Yep. Did you do? Yeah. Did you, no? So you anything illegal? No. Right. So it was just a lot of yes or no questions. So now they're there. And I can't let them come in my house because on my desk and on my

counter, I've got thousands of Western Union receipts just sitting there. So if they walked in, I mean, immediately they would have seen it. But I, a little savvy at that age about letting people come on in and things like that. So I said, we can chat right here. Plus, I'll let you guys sweat while you're sitting there out in the heat in your suits. So we, you know, we just kind of yes or no questions. I'm like, all right. So then they they leave. And they're like, well, all right. So I'm like, all right. Man, shit, we got to wait.

And that was a close call, but we're good to go. No, you're not. No, we're not. So I'm like, all right, we're good. They leave, they left us. We're good to go. But I'm never doing that shit again. That's exactly what I said.

So now hours go by, Ted and his wife come there. Ted's real scrawny, not, not a very, I'm not going to fight you. He's just not going to. So he comes to my house because I still hadn't talked to them, but they come to my house. And he gets out of the car and I'm just, I'm mad at him for getting me into this mess. But, you know, knowing what I, he didn't get me, you know, I could have walked away.

I could have just said no, you know, it wasn't him. Right. You know, they got me into it. So I just remember me just going, you know, saying something to him. And he just was like, and, dude, I really want to kick your ass right now, but just, just leave. So we talk, we talk for a couple minutes. And then, man, yeah, I never told anybody this either is we still have the office that they can't get access to because none of us own it. So it's, it's in an office building.

So they have to wait for somebody to come get the key. well the laptop's in there right which there's a a world of information on there so he's like dude I need you to go to the office and get the laptop I'm like are you boy evidence I'm like are you kidding me they're what am I going to go over there and they're they're going to be waiting outside so so I'm like all right I'll yeah sure I'll go over there and get the laptop so I figure out I'm going to wait the cops out so I wait like two hours hours maybe. I do go over there. I don't know what happened to the laptop, but the laptop is already missing. No, it's not already missing. But I went in there. I got the laptop and, you know,

that's your limitation. Yeah, yeah, plus I already got in trouble. So yeah, so I went in there. I got the laptop. And I never gave them back the laptop. Right. And, but that, The day before we had got, you know, they came to my house, came to his house. I was driving his vehicle and I had my book bag with my laptop in his car and I forgot it in his car that night. So they had my laptop because, you know, there. But they came out into this house. They wanted to take his DVR. Anything that had electronics, you know, anything that was recordable.

they took like i think it was like 80 000 in gift cards because we would just buy gift cards and that's how we would give it out to like the guys who worked for us for you know a spiff or whatever here you go but i think it might have been like 20 grand i don't know it was it was an astronomical amount of gift cards so they think like we're getting all this cash and we're just buying gift cards so that it's untraceable and all this stuff i don't even know what we did with half the money. As I said, you know, it's funny, you're just reminding me. Remember the guy Rudy or not?

The guy that I saw in the gym. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So this guy I used to, he used to work with me. He's one of these guys that he was actually listed on my indictment, but he never ended up getting arrest or anything. And it's funny because when I took off on the run, he went into the office and got, the CPU.

I don't know how many he got if he got multiple, because we had multiple computers. It maybe was just his CPU. I don't know. And, you know, this is when, you know, you had CPUs these big, the big, I don't know if they still, well, they still have them, right?

The big box. Big boxing. So he took it. He drove over to like the Courtney Campbell Causeway, like the bridge, stopped his car and threw it over. The problem. is people driving over the bridge think that, oh, it's a bridge with the Courtney Campbell at Causeway,

90% of it is, it's only three feet of water. Yeah. So when they eventually talk to him and they ask him where his computer is, he says, I threw it over the bridge. They were like, are you serious? He was like, yeah, they said, tell us where it is. So they actually sent out like a scuba diving team to go and get it. This is what the agent, the FBI agent, had told me. That woman, Candace Calderon.

Yeah, she said, well, when they got it, she said, and they got it up. And she said, there was actually a dead fish in it. So a fish had swung, swam in there somehow. When they picked it up, it was still in there. So it ended up drowning and died. So they had taken the fish and put it in a, in like a mason jar and filled it up with water. And they stuck it on her desk. And so, you know, and they had it all wrapped up.

And they were like, here's your CPU. It's, we can recover nothing. and they were like, and here's the dead fish that was in the CPU. But yeah, so I can, you know, it's funny like the throwing all the stuff like, you know, people get nuts, like they get like, oh, to destroy it. Like, do you have enough? Any idea how much evidence is involved that they've already got? Yeah, they've already got it all.

Yeah. So all you're doing is adding charges. Correct. So I, and I, I don't even remember what I did with this laptop. I still, I don't remember. But, um, um, So I go and take the laptop. And of course, I'm like scared shitless.

I'm just waiting to come out of there. And they're like, oh, what are you doing? Right. Because now I got it outside of the building. I took it out of the building for them. And now it's in my possession. So I'm like, all right, well, screw this. I'm not doing this anymore.

And then I said, well, you know what? Let me go get a job, which I haven't had a job now, a real job, a few years. So I went to go back to selling cars because that's what I know. And I was there for here in Florida for probably maybe two months. And I think I was just so worried to talk to somebody. Like maybe who knows, maybe it's they're undercover and they're coming there to try to buy a car. And, you know, so I just didn't sell anything the whole time I was there. Good thing they were giving me a, like, it was like a $750 a week salary, but I was, I didn't sell anything.

So finally, I get a phone call one day and they're like, hey, this is so-and-so from the BCI. I'm like, okay, what's up? What do you meet? This is like probably three months later, two months later. And they're like, well, we want to talk to you. I said, all right, well, what's up? and they're like, no, no, we want you to come on in to, so we're like, we're here in Florida, here in Tampa.

Yeah, no, I don't think so. I mean, they're in Tampa? Oh, yeah. Because they had already came here once and then three months later, all of a sudden, he's here in Tampa because when, when they, when they raided the house and they came to my house and talked to me, I was living in Florida at that time. Right. So now I'm like, you're here?

okay well what's going they're like well we want you to meet us at the police station I'm like yeah no I don't think so because I've seen too many movies I've seen too many once I go into there right I'm not coming I'm not coming back out I was like if you want to meet in a random parking lot or something like that they're like yeah no that's probably not how we want to do this one and I said well I think I'm just going to contact an attorney in C and he goes well I'm going to tell you this it really really behooves you to get back a hold of me. Now, I've never been told this.

I've never, no one, I just had an assumption, I have an assumption of what I think, I think possibly maybe they were gonna offer me immunity if I would have went there and talked to them that day. Because they thought, like I was like, the, the kingpin of this. whole thing. But I was, but I wasn't. You know, I just fed off of somebody else's small-minded idea and I lit, I was fuel to the fire. And then the two of our minds together was,

was very big. So, but as soon as I said a lawyer, they were like, oh, we're done. Okay, we're all done, you know, trying to talk to you. So now I'm like, you. I'm like, you. You know, this is getting kind of serious. I guess maybe we're not done. So I tell my girlfriend, my son's mom, I said, well, what we should probably do is move back to New York. Because if they come here and they get me, she's now stuck here with my son and doesn't know anybody. Right. So we moved back to New York.

And I get a job selling cars. again and that's something happens at some point i needed a job for some reason i what i didn't have a job so i i i never really even contacted a lawyer never had the lawyer call them because out of sight out of mine whatever if they figured maybe it'll just go away if i don't think about right so i'm on my way to a job interview and i'm speeding and i get pulled over like 55 and a 30 or something like that through these back roads. And at the time, I didn't have a driver's license, I don't think, or something. But I haven't had a driver's license at times. And I know if it takes them a while, something's up. And then especially if another cop pulls up, something's definitely up.

So immediately, every time I get pulled over, I got to get on the phone with somebody because I'm just always just worried. So I'm on the phone with my girlfriend. And, and, and I'm on the phone. I go, this guy's taking like forever. And I'm not talking about like, I was sitting there for, I think like 30 minutes, 40 minutes before he ever came back to the car. Then all of a sudden, another cop goes up. It's no good. Then another one.

Oh, it's not. It's not good. That's definitely an arrest. I'm like, yeah, something's up. I said, uh, this is where I'm at. And I'm like rattling it off really fast. So cop comes up to my door. He says, now I didn't have my driver's license on me at the time.

And he says, you got six felony warrants. Only six? I said, not me, sir. I said, I've never been in trouble a day in my life. I said, you might be thinking of my father, but not me. Next thing you know, he rattles off my date of birth, my social. So, yeah, that's me. Go, but I've never been in trouble a day of my life.

Not yet. He goes, well, it's from, he said something. And he goes to know how? I said, oh, I know what that is. But that's not me, sir. I didn't do anything. So the guy who owned the place, I think he was doing, I said, I think I'm probably okay. I got to get to this interview.

You don't seem to understand. Yeah. It doesn't matter what you say. Correct. And I was, and I'm like, man, I'm a salesman. I can. Okay. I'll get out of this.

And then my thought was in all of the short seconds, it was like, okay. All I got to do is get away from this guy. let him out of sight. I can bust my U-turn, go back home, get my clothes, and we'll go off to another city. And we'll be okay. Well, needless to say, I didn't, he wasn't never out of my sight. So he was actually, he was okay. He said, listen, I'm going to put the cuffs in front of you.

First time ever I've got to sit in the front seat of the cop car and drove me over. It's just a little small town. on where it was. So now we're there. And by now I get to the police station. My girlfriend gets there. He's got me handcuffed to the wall while sitting on a bench. And he's waiting for all of the information from Ohio. So because I had a secret indictment. Everybody else was already arrested the day before for the most part. But I didn't know at all. Because if so, there's no way I would have left my house. Right. And speaking to people now, or after that, they said that every time they arrested somebody, they always asked where I was. So nobody knew at, you know, where I was. So I

wait for, I think it was like 37 page facts had to come through, which was the indictment. Right. Yeah. And so. I read it and I can't remember all my charges. Really, I can only remember conspiracy and engaging of a pattern or corrupt activity. No, no, no, yeah, no, yeah, there was, I think there might have been wire fraud, engaging in a pattern or corrupt activity, conspiracy, aggravated theft of $1.5 million or more. And there was, there was two other ones. Was money laundering? Money laundering.

Yep, that was another one. Yep. there was that was definitely there so um so i wonder if mail fraud was there because i'm trying to think of all the things that would cover it definitely money laundering because you guys are using people to go through the correct definitely money laundering it there might have been it might have been mal fraud because you're why having them yeah why are the money to let that's those who are definitely um and then and then obviously conspiracy and then i was sure i think uh sometimes they'll they'll hit you with mail fraud because that's a pretty general one if you've mailed them

anything or and that might have been that might have been i want to say if you email them anything if you sent any emails or electronic stuff i think that that also is covered in mail fraud yeah in it in in that one there though it's it's not really like a it's like one of the lower end it is still a felony it's still a felony correct like it's like saying when you tell somebody oh you're just going to go to jail for three years they're like three years just like that's a minor yeah The bank frauds for like 20 years, 30 years. So I'm sitting there and by now my girlfriend's mom and dad know what's going on.

And she's on the phone with them while we're sitting on this bench. And I remember I'm reading what my charge is worth them. And I go, an aggravated theft of $1,500 or more. and the cop goes, no, sir, that's $1.5 million. Excuse me? But I just so happen to read it so fast. I was like, yeah, you don't fit me. He goes, no, it's $1.5 million.

I'm like, yeah, sir, again, I don't think that this is for me. And so now I, and I've done prior to this, I've done like a weekend or an overnight. I got, you know, you know, just on stupid things where I've gone into the jail there for a few hours and then I'm right out. So now they transfer port me over to the actual jail. So I go in and I'm like, you got to be kidding me. Like, what in the hell is going on? They give me this jumpsuit. It's literally a black and white stripe, the jumpsuit.

And I'm just in this big, giant room. So we're in the open dorms. and I think there was probably maybe 50 people in there, 50 beds, but it was weird because they were all lined up against the wall, so it wasn't a row or anything of them. And so I had the top bunk right over there in the corner, which I thought was great because nobody can get behind me. I can kind of see. I'm just a very observant kind of guy.

So I just sit there for a while, a couple weeks or whatever, don't really talk to anybody. But my girlfriend, we're like two weeks. hours from home. She was coming every you can do there was four hours visits for the weekend. You can do two hours and two hours or you can just do a whole four hour visit. Well, I said, no, no, we're not doing one full four hours. I said, I need you to come visit both days. Right. Saturday and Sunday. So kind of break up my day. So we did that. Well, then eventually, you know, I now started to get off my rack and started to talk to to other people that were in there. and I was on the phone a lot.

And then I'm waiting. They send me down, they bring me down to the courthouse after I'm there for a few days or whatever. And like, yeah, because this charge is in Ohio, we can't get you a bail. I said, listen, guys, just give me a bail. I'll pay it now.

And I promise you, I'll go and turn myself in there in Ohio. Let's not pay it. spend any of the taxpayers dollar like these are all things i'm saying what i'm like sir no it's it's it's no that's not going to like are you sure that there's nothing we can do uh and the day after i got arrested my mom my girlfriend had already hired an attorney already in ohio and uh so i'm like can you like email them can we call them something nothing's going to change nothing And of course, you know, just me being the salesperson, I'm like, there's got to be away from me to Or something out.

Yeah, well, I mean, with an angle something. And I didn't. So now I go back to the county jail. And I'm waiting. I'm just waiting and waiting. I think I was there for 45 days before they had extradited me back to Ohio. And while I was there, now I started to get a little bit more. comfortable and you know I knew who I could talk to who I couldn't now I'm starting to play

spades and and then this county jail it was weird everybody slept during the day and was up all night right but uh so I remember the phones would cut off at a certain time and right outside of the dorm was the the tower or whatever where the COs would be and the phone you could see it right from there so the phones would cut off at a certain time and uh every there was a couple of people in there that had my mom's number just in case if you know they had they took me to to go get extradited so it's like 11 o'clock at night i'm just really getting into the spades game and starting to win and i'm really starting to pick it up and they call me it's time for me to leave so somebody somebody in there calls my mom

and it's like 11 o'clock at night. For whatever reason, the phones just didn't cut off that night. So my mom knew immediately, you know, that, you know, getting that call that night, she knew I was gone. There was the worst seven days ever. Took like seven days for a 10-hour drive. Yeah, yeah. From one county jail to another county jail. But we didn't sleep at all at any of the county jails.

And three days is what I think it took. And I didn't eat because I was a, afraid, you know, if I eat and I'm going to have to take a shit and, you know, just all this stuff. There was no, they didn't give us any water. It was literally like in the back of a van. And we just were sitting on these benches all across all shackled together. Feet were all swollen. Hands were swollen. You know, it was, it was horrendous. They could have made it a little bit more comfortable for us, but. I know they're not concerned about that. No, they're not at all. Is it have to be this uncomfortable?

Yeah. Yeah, they're not. So now I get to the county jail there. And I'm there. And I get up like two days after I was there. It's like five o'clock in the morning. They hand me a sheet of paper. I didn't see the judge or nothing yet.

And they said, well, here you go. I read the paper a million dollar bail. I was like, you got to be kidding me. So in the state of Ohio, no matter what your charge is, they have to give you a bail, no matter, no matter what it is. So I'm like, man, there's no way I'm going to, I'm going to be able to get out here. So eventually I go, I meet my lawyer. And I go over the stuff with him. He goes, all right, well, we're going to go over.

in front of the judge. No, no, no, actually, I went in front of the judge first. That was the first time I had met him. And he got to drop to $70,000, my bail. So I went from like a million to $70,000. But I guess that first bail, if they would have said it at $70, I could have just paid it right then and then bet out and didn't even go into my first appearance in front of the judge.

So they set that one really high. So while I'm, I don't have. have the seven grand at this point to to pay it real quick so my mom and my girlfriend they got to get it takes them a few weeks to come up with the money to to to make sure we can get me bailed out but while I'm there I start running into all my co-defendants and Jimmy Polly yeah oh yeah there was seven there was 18 of us oh yeah so um not everybody was there but um we're you're there you obviously could talk to the toilet you could talk to the vents and they're all in different different uh floors so everybody's like yeah we got to go out to the yard i'm like

i'm not going out there i just got in here i got to observe and watch everybody first before i can make any moves so i'm like all right so i go outside and we start talking with like all right Everybody just keep your mouth shut and let's just, you know, just shut up. So I'm like, all right, yeah, cool. So now we come back in from the yard. We're on the elevator. Go upstairs. One of the COs goes, uh, Al, come with me.

So where's he going to the other guys that go? He's going to tell right now. That's where he's going. That's where he's going right now. And of course he comes, then he comes back. Then the next day we're like, no, man, I didn't say nothing. Well, knowing what I know now, you know, all my discovery and everything, he was the first one to buckle.

And so I'm there for like 73 days total, cumulative from the 45 to then get an extra item. Now I get out. And I go home and back to New York. My mom puts up her house and all that stuff to make sure that I can come back home. So I don't have to stay there. I get a job back selling cars at one place. I didn't care for it. I went to another place.

We're fighting for about two years going back and forth. The original lawyer that they hired. Mm-hmm. We never saw eye to eye from day one. I'm the most normally the most cockiest arrogant person in the room. He's normally the most cocky, arrogant person in the room. So after he gets my bail dropped to $70,000, he comes on in and he chats with me and says, hey, you know, what's going on, blah, blah, blah.

So I tell him, I go, all right. He asked me, you know, kind of what I said? Well, hold on, I got a couple questions for you. Because this is the first time I'm ever meeting. And I'm like, is this the biggest case you've ever done? Or, you know, like, what? No, no, no, no, it's not. Are you, I had bigger cases already this morning before years.

And I'm just like, all right, cool. So we chat a little bit. And then I speak to his partner. like the next day or something. He goes, and I say, hey, you know, I want to just apologize. I think I might have rubbed him the wrong way yesterday. So he says, yeah, you did a little bit. I said, and it wasn't that.

It was just, I've never talked to you. So now it's my turn to interview you to make sure that we did the right, right move. So, okay. So now a week goes by or whatever, and my lawyer comes back to talk to me. and I knew I was getting bailed out that day. I knew the money. I knew everything was ready. So he comes back and he, she's talking to me.

He says, listen, they're here and they want to talk to you, the BCI and the Attorney General and all that stuff. And they said, I said, well, for what? And he goes, well, they want to offer you a deal. I said, does it involve going to prison? him. He said, well, yeah, they're going to, I said, I'm not interested then. That's a mistake. Yeah, I said, I said, I'm not interested then. I said, if they want to talk to me and ask me for a deal that I don't care, probation, time serve, whatever it is, I'm okay with that. But if they're offering me to go to prison, I'm out. He goes, all right, he goes, let me go talk to him and find out. He goes,

here's the deal. I'll come and get you if I can convince them not to give you prison time. But if not, then I'm not even going to come back and get you. Right. Well, all of a sudden,

the CEO opens up the door, hollers my name. I'm rolling up all my stuff. I'm like, all right, I'm out of here. He goes, what the hell are you doing?

I go, I'm leaving. He goes, no, your lawyers look up for you. I said, all right, I guess it's not time to go yet.

So now they bring me downstairs. and I walk it. I'm like, oh, here we go. No prison time. And I said, all right. So my lawyer goes, I said, I just want to make sure, guys, no matter what you wanted to go to prison, right? This is how you're starting the camp.

I just told you, I got no interest. So they're like, well, how much time are you thinking? It's what my lawyer says. And they're like, well, more than four, but less than 10. What kind of deal is that? like more than four but less than 10 see i'm not really interested but thanks and then they said well do you want to have some time with your lawyer i said yeah sure and they go out in the hallway and uh it's a glass door so i can see them and he goes all right well you want me to go out there and at least try to

narrow down exactly how much time they want so yeah like well yeah let's let's do that because goes out there he comes back in he says seven years what for 1.5 million that you've got 18 conspirators so one of the girls she got four years um that's what that's what they sentenced her to which is the manager who got fired a week after i got there right so she has very little culpability correct she was she was there on the legit side of of of the business so well how much time do you do do no in that system if you get 10 years how much time are you going to do inside um there for that you have to do um on that if you did 10 years you would have had to do you couldn't

get out early until for you had to do at least five years i think is what it was because um of how their system system where i think right so if you get five years you got to do two and a half inside. Correct. Okay. So, um, he says, yeah, you know, give you seven. I said, yeah, okay, well, bring him back in. He's the way, you're going to take it? I said, bring him back in. So they come on in, they get all comfortable, getting ready to record everything. Yeah, no, thanks. Have a nice day. Bring me back upstairs. They're like, what? So I, of course, I, you know, just me and my ego. Yeah, let him come back in. He's my lawyer. Are we getting? No, we're not doing this.

I'm not going to agree to seven years. Because at that time, I still just thought, I didn't do anything wrong. You're delusional. Yeah, I didn't do anything wrong. I didn't. Right. Now, what the owner may have done, that's on him. Right.

But at this point, he's already telling the probably, he's most likely already telling them that you were the guy who is, you're the one. Correct. Right. So I, so now a couple hours goes by, or maybe an hour or something, I get bailed out. My girlfriend's there. We go and meet my lawyer and we got a couple conversations. And I think I got to go to the bail bondsman as well, do a couple things there. And my mom's there because she's got to sign paperwork and stuff.

So I go and meet him. Now I go back home. I get some jobs selling cars. I get to the lawyer and I, we're just not seeing eye to eye. Like, we're just, we're just not. So he gets me a deal of four years. Nice. Okay, well.

You do two years. We're getting a lot closer. That seems like a good deal. Oh, yeah. Knowing what I know today, that was a great deal. So I said, yeah, you're just fired. I said, you're fired. So what I, we just, we just, we're not seeing eye to eye.

You're not saying I'd eye because you're unreasonable. You're not being reasonable. You're not accepting the fact that you've committed fraud that led to $1.5 million that probably, that maybe was probably on the low end that they actually hold because there's all kinds of people. Oh, no, there's 1.5 or more. Or more. Yeah.

So, yeah, it was, it was more. And they, they did tell us. It was definitely more. But the thing is, is my lawyer just kept telling me, listen, yes, you can take this deal, but I think we can win. Oh, you're telling you can win at trial? Oh, yeah. And some of the thing is, is even to this day, I still believe that if we went to trial, I may have one.

But the thing is, is what I, here's what I think is, I may not have one. all of it. But in that time, I would have thought, okay, I would win at least enough not to get 10 years. But I know a lot more today than I do that. But I still think there's portions of those charges that I would have won. Would I have gone to prison? Absolutely.

I still would have. But I feel as if I would have been able to clear myself and got, not guilty on on some of it because it didn't start out as you know not on the up and up so i i wanted somebody to at least acknowledge that and i still to this day at least want somebody to acknowledge that it Bernie made off did not stop i know that correct he did not i think he got 150 years he did But, you know, since then, no, I've done a lot more research. I've met more people that are like-minded like myself. And I made the right decision, you know, once I get to there.

But I was just like, yeah, we're just not seeing that I. They're fired. Yeah. So what I'm thinking is, what I'm going to do is I'm going to go to New York City, which is about four hours from where I live. And I'm going to hire a big time New York City lawyer that just walk in there a big swing and dick and it's like this is how it goes you little small timers that didn't work out either so i i hire this guy we'll come to find my my my girlfriend my son's mom she finds this lawyer

we we find two lawyers we go down there to interview them both the first one i go there it's like this russian guy and there's just like files everywhere and we meet them at like nighttime it to me it was just very weird. But knowing what I know today, it's probably the lawyer I should have hired because it looks like it probably was on the up and up, but it was one of those things like if it was like a perfect scene for maybe it wasn't and they kind of know what what's going on. So I go and I meet this other guy and hire him. Well, I do a little bit more research on after the fact. And I don't even think he was like a real attorney.

I mean, he was a real attorney. But I think he, I don't know how long he had, has law license at the time. I think he was only doing public defender stuff. Right. At that time, he also tried to sue the internet. Yeah. So again, it was just, I just, he's from New York City.

He's got to be good. Got to be big time. So, um, I also had interviewed one lawyer because then I started to do some more research that you can look up like super lawyers and, you know, all these people. But to come to find out, these guys just pay to be super, you know, this is just, but I went and met these guys in Ohio. I met him at like 11 o'clock at night because that's the time that I had got there and they stayed to two lawyers. I wish I would have hired them. I wish I would have had more money to hire them.

but they wanted like 20 grand up front another 20 grand once the trial was over with because I was 100% taking it to trial. It's just what I was going to do. I just didn't have the money at the time. And so I hired the guy from New York City. Worst mistake ever. I just don't think the guy ever just cared about me. She never fired my original one.

So I go to, to, there and to to to the courts with my new attorney and he's still only four years and like yeah no I'm not taking it so my agreement I've always said was I don't want to do any prison time but if anybody calls in or if anybody messes with any of my friends who I got involved into this or my kids moms or anybody in my family, I'll take whatever deal it is they give me. So my buddy, best friend from here in Florida, I get him and his wife involved and there are some of the people that are going to pick up the Western unions for me. So he texts me and says, hey, listen, call me.

So I didn't see it. It's like three hours later. I might work. I call and he doesn't answer. So then he calls me like three days later and says, who's this? I'm like, it's Roger. He says, oh, he goes, I got some people.

Came to my house. The cops came to my house and stuff. Now, me not being a dummy, I kind of put it together really quick. The cops were probably with him when he tried to get a hold of me the first time. Right. And then he didn't call me back until three days later because finally they can meet back up with him.

Yeah. And so he goes, I don't know what to tell him. What should I tell him? I go, trying to get you on an obstruction. Correct. I go, tell him exactly the truth. Right. Tell him the truth.

That's exactly what I want you to tell him, the truth. I go, and you can look at him right now and tell him I said to tell the truth. All right. He goes, what do you mean? I go, yeah, why don't you look at him right now and tell him? I said, tell the truth. And he's, well, so then I caught him off guard because now he kind of, I think he thought that I knew that he was probably sitting there with him.

So they do. So now he hangs up and, you know, that's that. Then my son's mom in this story, I don't know how true it is. Just, you know, there's some backstory to her. But she's jogging one day. And one of the guy from the BCI stops her and starts questioning her. And then says, oh, didn't you just drop your son off over there? And then, you know, you're doing this.

And then yesterday. And so now in my head, I'm like, okay, you know what? I, it's now it's just coming too close. We're going to. So the original deal that they had offered me two days before that was four years. on a second-degree felony. So now on Friday, I call my lawyer and I said, listen, tell them I'll take that deal.

And Monday, I was supposed to start trial. So I said, tell them I'll take the deal. So he calls me back and he says, yeah, they said, no, they're not going to give you that deal. I said, what do you mean? Because now that it's just close, they're going to give you four years still, but it's a first-degree felony.

I go, dude, just call them and tell them, well, let's take the... He goes, yeah, no, they're not going to... They will not do it. So I'm like, all, screw it, I'll do it. And... What's the difference? Because for me and my head,

it was more or less like... It's the worst. Okay. First degree, you're intentionally doing something. Second degree, you happen to do it? Or by accident? In my mind, it was just more, the first is worse than the second. Okay.

So I think that's, and not only that, I think also just my stubbornness and my trying to still control the situation from the beginning when I got pulled over was I would have won. But now I'm bowing down and I'm allowing them still to win because. they're giving them the first. I'm allowing them to still give me the first degree versus the second degree. So I think it was just in my own head. There's really no difference. Who cares? So the way the state of Ohio works is if you do less than five years is your sentence, you can get out as early as six months on what they call a judicial release. If you have to do, if your sentence is five years or more, you have to do at least half the time. So I now know at this point, I have 17 co-defendants.

Every single one of them have talked to the cops, every single one of them. I was just the only one who didn't. And people can look at it as, oh, yeah, you know, you're the man. You did, you know, that's, but I still wouldn't change. The outcome that I have today, I still wouldn't change. It wouldn't have, it would not have benefited me talking to them. Maybe that one day, if I would have went there, maybe it would have, but. What kind of sentences did they get?

So the very first girl that got sentenced, she got four years. And they knew that the owner was going to get more time. So that's why they told me in the beginning, four years to 10 years, but they didn't know how much time he was going to get. So I think that that's why they said four to ten. And I think that they were hoping that he might get seven. And then I'll get seven. They took the two big guys down. But some of them got probation.

And all this. So which I forgot. So the owners, they had a daughter who actually had a brain tumor. So they thought we were running a telemarketing. room out of their home like they came in they thought we had like the secret room we were doing all this stuff there are people always coming in out that's because they had nurses like these are all things that they were that they were all bringing up you know in in my um discovery and uh so i was just like all right you know so finally i just came and i said all right i'll take the four

years um and with the first degree felony so he says all right so now i fly out on Monday, and the judge stands there and he says, it reads me off whatever. Oh, engaging in a pattern or corrupt activity. So which is basically it's a RICO case, but a state RICO. So I said, he says, how do you plead? And I just remember standing there because even still at that time, I still almost just was like, yeah, no.

I like, not guilty. And I said guilty. And, you know, then he goes through his whole spiel and everything. And I said, yeah, everything's all right. He goes, okay, we're going to have you come back for sentencing, which I think was like a month, two months later. So I go, I go back home, get all my affairs in order. and I go to the gentleman who owned the dealership that I work for.

He's the largest, one of the largest dealerships there. I explained to them that, you know, what I had going on and I was going to go. And he said, well, how much, you know, how long? It's probably like six months. And he goes, yeah, he goes, who cares? So I get, I go now August 19th. I can't remember the year, 2012, something like that. And I get to sentencing.

And they tell me they're going to give me the four years. But I made sure that it said in my plea agreement that they will not fight my judicial release. I made sure 100% that it said that. So I get there. I get sentenced to the four years. And it was just like immediately you could just feel like the, you know, just the whole weight was just lifted off there from the fight from the last two, two and a half years. So I get into there. I did nine months total because the way it works is you get six months.

And after six months, then you can apply for the judicial release. They can take up to 30 days to answer you. And then after that, once they answer you, they could take up to 30 days to give you your judicial release hearing. And you have to go all the way back to the jail where you were. So whatever county it was. So I applied after seven months. My original attorney that I got, he's the one who took care of my judicial release for no extra money. at all.

And that guy, I should really should have. He had my best interest, you know, at heart, the whole time. Even though he still was saying,

I think we could win. Right. If we went to trial. He always did have my best interest. The second attorney, I just don't. think that he did it all. I think that my own personal opinion is I just think that the amount of money that he was charging me, I think is probably some of the money that he was getting.

He still thinks I still own some money, but, um, no, whatever. But I, uh, so he, we get to, everybody in prison is telling me, yeah, you know, if you, if they give you the hearing, you're going home. If not, if they just, if they just, they'll just deny you and say, yeah, no, we're not going to give you the hearing. So I'm like, yeah, okay, sure. So obviously I get, I wait seven months, then we do it. And of course, they wait 30 days to answer me.

Then of course they wait another 30 days for my, for the date. So it comes out to be nine months. And everybody's like, yeah, man, you're, you're going home. I'm like, yeah, okay, sure, sure I am. I'm still very doubtful. So I did know, though, that other people in my case, my co-defendants, they were getting out as well on their judicial releases. So at this point, it's only the owner and I were the only two that are still left in prison. And I tried to go to the same prison as him so that I would at least know somebody.

But I'm glad I didn't. But I did my nine months. I get to the hearing. And of course, when you come back from prison, you get to the county jail. You got to sit in the county jail for, like, in solitary for however long, two days, three days. So I sit there. I go to the hearing. And it's not the original prosecutors that I had that were there.

And they said, yeah, they told us that they don't want them to get out. I'm, are you serious? They're like, yeah, they, they're telling us that they never had any agreement that, that, you know, they were, all of a sudden, the judge picks up my original plea agreement. And it was almost like he just got the whole, well, you better read this. He says, like, head wave in everything. You better read this. And like, well, no, sir, sir, we're just relaying the message.

And he goes, yep, he's, he's got to go. And so then they released me. And I was ready to walk right out of there, get in the car, and drive back home. Right. I'm thinking, I'm done. Because I knew that they were going to transfer my probation to back home. So when I got out, I only got two years probation. So I did my nine months and then I get two years probation, not parole or anything like that.

Right. And then I'm all done. So the three and a half years or whatever it is, it just goes by the wayside. So luckily I didn't because I come to find out I was supposed to go and check in in Ohio the next day, which I did that. I got everything transferred to New York. And in New York, if you do your probation, you only have to do 50% of your probation time and then you're good to go. As long as you don't have any issues. Right.

As long as you do what you're supposed to do. So I go there. I meet the probation officer. He's like, all right. You know, whatever. I think he just knew. I'm not, I wasn't your everyday person that he probably sees or anything like that.

I remember one day he comes, knocks on the door and my girlfriend answered the door. And he goes, hey, I was just checking. He goes, oh yeah, he's sleeping. And I could hear somebody who was knocking. So I'm getting dressed. I was still sleeping.

I was getting dressed. And he goes, oh, no, no. he goes, I see the men's shoes. Don't worry about it. And he goes, goes to leave. And I'm like, oh, no, no, sir, I'm right here. He goes, okay, yeah, no, no problem. And then I was supposed to check in with them once a week.

Then I got to once a month. And then I got to listen, buddy. I'll let you know. Yeah. I'll get, you know. And I was only on there for it for a year. So he was, he was cool. He didn't bother me.

So now I'm all done with probation. Two years goes by. And I'm working. I'm working at the dealership, and I'm doing, somebody's there picking up their vehicle. I'm doing paperwork. I'm putting their plates on. I go outside. And all of a sudden, these people come out of this SUV, camera crew, big sign, says, hey, we're here from, we want to know if you want to win fame and fortune.

We're here from a game show. is we're getting ready to, you know, film a pilot for it. And we're looking for contestants. I'm like, now I'm cool things. They're like, you don't want to win fame and fortune? I'm like, no, I literally, I'm okay. I'm starting to get my life back. I'm, you know, they're like, really?

Come on. This is two questions. I'm like, I, fuck it. Come on. What do you? And so now I start to ask them, well, who else have you talked to? Because where it is, it's a whole strip of dealerships. And I know everybody that's on the strip.

They're like, yeah, we went over there. Like, really, who'd you talk to over there? Well, well, you know, we can't really disclose that kind of for me. It sounded like a game show. Right. So it was almost like the signs were definitely there. But I knew there was going to be a catcher. There was something, you know, right from the beginning.

So they said, the only thing you got to do is answer two questions. And I'm like, all right, fine. Come on. Let's go so I can move on with my night. And they said, name one of the quarterbacks that are playing this year in the Super Bowl. I said, Cam Newton. Yeah, congratulations. Yeah, yep, yep, that's one.

Okay, who is the first lady's name? And at the time, it was the Obamas. And I couldn't remember her first name. I don't know why. Just at that second, and I go, Mrs. Obama? Right. And they're like, no, no, no. The first name, I go, Michelle Obama.

They're like, oh, congratulations. Yeah, you got the two questions right, blah, blah. So, like, we'll be in contact with you if you are going to be one of the contestants. Like, all right. So then I go back to work. Now they start emailing me. Yeah, you know, congratulations. Another red flag.

They tell me we're going to come on down to New York City. Everything's paid for. You're going to do the filming at Trump Towers. So we get our hotel, all that stuff. My girlfriend and I, we come down there to New York City. We fly down and they put us up in a hotel. I go to the hotel. Then the next morning, they're late to come pick me up.

And I'm sitting behind the driver and my girlfriend's sitting behind the passenger. But she can see whoever she's texting right over the seat. So she's texting me now. It's like, man, they're really mad at her. We're late, this and that. But they weren't saying anything in there. So anything suspicious. They weren't saying anything in there.

So we get to the place. Immediately, I was like, say Trump Towers. It was just like a rundown building that it just didn't make sense to me. I'm like, all right, whatever. I can't pull my phone on. Say, hey, wait a minute. I thought we were going to Trump Tiles. I was saying, I screw it.

I'll just keep moving. But the entire time. I just knew there was some kind of catch. And they told me they were going to pay me $1,000 to be on this pilot. So I'm like, okay, what's going to be the catch? They're not really going to pay me the $1,000. So I get in there and they're staging me all up for going on this pilot. They got me walking down these stairs talking about, hey, you want to win money.

You're going to win fame and fortune. They're like, come on, get some more excitement. Now, anybody who knows me that has seen the video, the video, you can't find it online. I can't, I just can't find it, the actual video of it anymore. But anybody who saw the video goes, that's not, you could tell, like, you weren't really there all excited. Like, you could tell you're a little reserved. So they got me coming down the stairs, you know, all this acting that I'm going to win all this

money. So then, like, okay, everybody else is already here. other two contestants are already here. They've already done all this stuff. Okay. So they put me this around. And now I'm starting to ask them questions. The other two contestants there, they're like, hey, you know, what's going on?

Did you guys? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they were real quiet, real hush, hush. And knowing what I know today, they couldn't talk very much, probably because something would have came up. So I'm on this game show. I'm losing on this game show, whatever question is this. The other two contestants.

Did you a whole game show? A whole game show. Like actual contestants, a host, everything. And actually standing in front of a podium with a buzzer, everything. I'm losing. I'm like, oh, man, I'm going to win fame and fortune this way. Right. So I, all of a sudden, they ask a question,

and you have to wait until they're finished asking the question. questions and then you can answer then you can buzz in and answer well i don't remember what the question was but the answer was boiler room got it so it was movie clips right boiler room was one of them well for wall street and i all of a sudden i'm making a comeback and i look over at my girlfriend and i must it i just she just knew you know this is it we're about to make a comeback yeah let's go then all of a sudden it pops up we know is something along the lines of elderly man scams or gentlemen scams elderly or bilks them out of millions of dollars in a land scam or something like that and um this is right after

Bernie Madoff. Bernie Madoff wasn't coming to my mind, but I knew that's what I wanted to buzz in and say, because I wasn't really, I was just like, I'm already on a roll. It's easy now. I got the answers to these. So they're like, does anybody know the answer? No, no. The other two people, they were buzzing in like crazy before.

Right. Now they're not buzzing in. And they go, Roger, you don't know the answer? No, I don't know the answer. All of a sudden now all the lights come on. It's you. And like, what? And they're like, yeah, you know, we've got some of your victims.

here in the crowd. There was a crowd? How many people? I don't, there, I think there was like 10 people in the crowd. Okay. But I couldn't see them when I came in there because the crowd lights were dark. Right. And so at this time, I'm just, I stand there and she's like, I'm so-and-so, Guerrero or something

like that, I think it was her name. It was their last name. I don't remember what her first name was. and she's like, you know, we're here and we've got some of your victims in the crowd and blah, we want to talk to you about it. Now, in that fast, I thought about kicking over this podium, running and drop kicking the guy who came to my, to my work, and tricked me into going there. Now, I've already been off of probation for two years.

This is way behind you. Correct. It's way behind me. I'm now moving on. And so, but I don't do any of that. I just walk over to the guy who say, hey, where's my jacket? And like he's just sitting there looking at me. So now I'm above him.

Where is my, and finally I must have said a two or three time. And finally, it's over there in that room. And now security is over there and they're, you know. So they got me all miced up and stuff. And I just put my jacket on. I got my suitcase. And my girlfriend, we walked down these stairs. Now we're in the streets of New York City.

They still got their camera crew and all this. And they're like, the guys like, give me the microphone, you know, the security guy. He's like, we're going to get you for theft. And he knew he was real close to me because he knew if I took it off, I probably would have threw it. So he gets it right. out of my hand and then they're following me and my girl she's just like I I want she was like almost trying to fight them and upset and I can't remember like if she had a bag and she was

swinging the bag at them or she was actually swinging I just can't I can't I can't remember it's a little bit of a blur even even then but all of a sudden the guy who comes to my work says we do have a vehicle for you that will bring you back to the airports right over here. And I turn around and go, fuck you. And I turned back around and I walked away. So on the article, if you read it and on the video it says, and he's got one last statement for his victims, fuck you. Right. And I'm like, that's not how that went down. Oh, I know. Yeah. And I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, that is not how that went down at all. And so now a couple weeks goes by and it airs.

I was like a celebrity. I got to half a day of work to go home to watch it. Because they, you know, they didn't want me there, you know, when it when it aired or whatever. Just for my, just for me. just so because who knows how I would have been or whatever so you know go home and you know I'll watch it. The worst part is is I was supposed to get a promotion to business manager at the time. So like the finance manager, you know, buying the car and everything. And once this happened, they were just kind of like, man, we don't we don't know.

We got to let some of this stuff die down. And once that happened, I was just so angry, you know, at the place, you know, You guys know me. That's, you know, you guys already knew that. You held my job for me. The owner writes a letter to the judge, how my judicial release, the manager. I mean, everybody, you know, so, um, I, uh, I, I just get it. I go on the game show and, you know, I'm just like, you got to be kidding me, man.

Like, it's two years behind me. Right. At least two years behind me. And this was inside edition. Inside edition. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. She comes, you know, it's inside edition. And a couple of the people that were in the crowd, they go, my mom got or my dad got this. And I'm like, I'm like, no. Okay, first of all, I recognized the name. Right. I never even talked to them with me. Because, you know, you started to learn some of the names of the people. But I was just like, And still, at that time, I, I would just say, I didn't do anything wrong. Like, you know, for the longest time, I have, I have always thought that. And more in the last year to year and a half, I have started to think, like, like I said earlier, is all the shit that I went through, like growing up and all that kind of stuff.

and I was taking meds and all that kind of stuff until I was 18. And then I got back on it about a year, year and a half ago is my mental health. You know, I just never cared about it to the point to where I feel like my mental health and all that kind of, and correlating that and trying to actually sit around and think, yeah, you know, you did do some stuff that you shouldn't have done. Right. Was there some stuff that you did that was okay? Sure. Again, not illegal, but definitely, definitely unethical.

But yeah, I went, I come and find out, it was Inside Edition, and I said, well, screw it. I cashed the $1,000 check. And they did send you $1,000 check? They gave it to me while I was there. And the worst part is, the worst part about it is is, is. they make me fill out like a 1099 sheet. And so on there, I'm like, you guys aren't going to get me for a thousand bucks.

I put the wrong social security number down on the 1099 sheet. So after that, I'm like, oh, shucks, I probably shouldn't have done that. Right. Because now I definitely look like I was doing something wrong. But yeah, they gave me a $1,000 check while I was there. I mean, I don't know how much the other contestants made, but. what do you think i noticed that on the article like there's two different articles that i saw and both the video said video unavailable yeah what do you think so if you read so there there was

a spot on there that you could read some of the comments and what inside addition what what all of the people who sat on the comments was very very um it was it was a lot of comments like shouldn't have done that that's so trashy of you guys that guy did his time what if he left there and killed himself you know i don't think it was successful as what they wanted so i think they just took it down i don't know i don't know why because because when we when you and i talked you said hey you know if you can try to find the video and i even before that i couldn't find the video i haven't been able to find it in a long time but the if you click on that it says it's not available but it's got the still shot of me standing there behind the podium

but i i don't know why you i can't find the video anywhere online because just the price is right clip from the price is right right right yeah yeah i can put your face on it yeah i wish uh i i wish i could find it but um you know because today i'd love to watch it and see where and study it. All right. Where were you an idiot and you didn't catch, catch on? But immediately too, as soon as they revealed themselves, I was just like, okay, there's the catch. Right.

Yeah, I was like, okay, I knew there was a catch. There it is. All right, let's go. You know, I was just ready to go. I wonder what they thought you were going to do. Like, you know. They even said, hey, come on. we can just sit down and we'll just talk with you.

Are you guys nuts? You think I'm just going to sit here and chat with these people? Yeah, with them and you guys. No, if that's really what you guys wanted to do and you wanted those victims to confront the person that scam them, then you would have just come to me and said, hey, listen, we'd like to do an article on you. Yeah, there'd be a lot. And it's a lot better way to go about doing it.

Correct. And that was the very, you know, that was a sleazy, what they did it was for ratings and for, and it was just a sleazy way of doing it. But I probably still wouldn't take that back either. You know, I'd probably still, you know, knowing what I know now, I probably still would have done it.

I just probably would have done it a little bit smarter to where, I outdid them at the end instead of them outdoing me. But, you know, and then since then, after that, I've gotten some trouble here and there. But nothing. No, no, nothing, nothing real bad. It was, it's, it's more or less just like family court nonsense with, you know, my kids' moms.

I got three kids, three different moms. 19, 14. And my youngest is. five so. Maybe mama draw. Oh, yeah. So a lot of it. But, you know, fast forward to like three and a half years, I, you know, I just meet my wife.

And now I'm just trying to live, live my life is on the up and up as I can. I hear you. What are you doing? I'm over here trying to find the video. It's gone. Look at this. It's playing. This guy is really worked.

It's time to win some money. He's about to be a contestant. How did you find it? I just have your name. Thanks to a game show that we created. You found it too. Now one of the contestants is a guy who just said it to me. Yeah.

Oh. The targeted seniors in 41 states. He did just over a year in prison, even though millions of dollars was lost. He has no idea that for him, the game of fame is about to turn into the game of shame and some of some of his victims are in our studio audience to give him a piece of their mind. This guy is really worked up. It's time to win some money. He's about to be a contestant on a new TV game show called The Game of Fame.

Or so he thinks, the real name of the show, that's right, Game of Shame. We rented out an empty theater in Manhattan and transformed it into a game show set, complete with podiums, lights, buzzers, a live audience, and And of course, a game show host. That would be our Lisa Guerrero. What Roger Van Doren doesn't know is that his fellow contestants are working for us. And sitting in the audience are some of his victims and their relatives who we flew in from around the country. Really doesn't even look like you. ... moment to meet the contestants.

Roger, what do you do? I'm a car salesman. A car salesman. What kind of car used or new? Oh, both. You're good at selling things. Yes, ma'am. See. Name the movie where a bunch of wannabe stockbrokers are taught how to lie, cheat, and steal

over the phone. The only people making money passing are NFL quarterbacks and I don't see a number on your back. Roger. Boiler Room. Boiler Room for 200 points, correct. How did we know for sure he was going to answer correctly? Because investigators say he used the movie Boiler Room as a training video to motivate his workers

to swindle old people. It was beyond a rip-off. It was truly a scam. It was stealing. I mean, they literally stole millions. Who's that? Oh, that's one of the investigators. He's the slick telemarketer who took advantage

of vulnerable senior citizens in a classic land scam that made millions. Do you need a hint? Roger, does this sound familiar at all to you? The answer is you. Roger Van Doren, and this isn't actually the game of fame, it's the game of show. And I'm not a game show host. I'm actually Lisa Guerrero with Inside Edition. And there are some people in the audience that have something to say to you, Roger.

Roger, I still feel like you should be in prison. This guy says he lost $7,000 to Roger's phony land scam. Our dad was one of the thousands of seniors who were hurt. These three sisters save their dad who suffered from dementia lost $30,000. What you did in the elderly is unconscionable. How do you sleep? And this 76-year-old lady lost $4,000. Roger, do you have anything to say to the people that were some of your victims? None at all, thank you though. Are you sure because you went to prison and you never paid back some of your victims? Do you have an apology for them?

Yeah. Where's my jacket? You hurt many, many people. You took people's entire life savings, Roger. Do you think that's fair? Roger and his girlfriend grabbed their things and stormed off the set. We need the microphone, Roger. If you don't mind. Roger Van Doren only had one last departing message to offer.

Here's what I got to say. Go, fuck yourself. Nice. Wow. Oh, man. When's the last time you saw that? Oh, man. It's been a long time, so I've seen that.

You're going to shoot her to you? Yeah. My wife would get a kick out of it because she's never seen the whole video. Oh, my gosh. Inside Edition. So I wonder if we can pull that off. Yeah, I can screen recorder this later. Or is there one you can dump the link into or is it not one?

Is it playing through the website? I don't know. It's probably not playing through YouTube. So I can try. But worst case, I can screen record it. Yeah, so now, yeah, what do you feel after watching that? It's just part of my life. it's just where I am it is what it is at this point you know it's been I have been it's been over 10

years since you know I've even I've been at home even off probation so I always wonder what people think that it's funny it's like you go to jail for whatever two years five years 10 years and they they had to tie they said over a year but so somebody goes somebody does something wrong and they go to jail for five years and then you get out and then they're like oh you got to pay all that money back wait a minute i just went to prison for five years like what am i supposed to do well and if you ask people how do you expect me to pay the money back they'll tell you like like every dollar you make from here on out should have to go to pay restitution it's like yeah but wait a second i have to pay my bill well that's your problem no no correct i have to pay my bills and and and then they're like

well, every dollar other than your basic necessities should go to. It's like, no, no, wait a minute. Like, I still have to retire someday. Correct. I still have to live a life. And, you know, they had these unreasonable expectations and you're like, okay, but here's the thing. If I was in a car accident and I killed someone, I would go to jail for 10 years and I would get out and I'd continue on with my life. But because I have a financial crime, you want to make me whole.

You want me to do the same amount of time that. that a violent criminal does and pay back all that money. But if I had sold drugs, I don't have anybody to pay back. So I just go to jail for five years and I get to live my life. Like people are unreasonable with what they expect. Or society in general, for the most part, it's unreasonable for what they expect you to do to fix these things. And it's like, if you'd wanted me to pay you back,

then you probably should have shown up with my sentencing and said, don't go to prison, Your Honor. He's supposed to go to prison for 10 years. let's make him pay as much as he can within 10 years. Correct. But they don't think that way. No. And for me, I was not asked to pay any restitution at all.

Right. So then to me, that's the deal. Like, if you guys have a problem, you should go to the government. Correct. You should go to them. Because they agreed. Not to me. Correct.

The only person out of any of us that needed to pay restitution was Ted, the owner. Okay. He's the only person that they had asked to pay restitution. See, that's funny because, like, the government will come in, the federal government will come in and say, oh, there's, there's 10 different conspirators. And you guys stole 10 million dollars cumulatively. And each one of you owes 10 million dollars. And you're like, well, no, I should owe a million. Right.

You know, whoever can pay it off, then that person pays it off for everyone else. And you're like, this doesn't make sense at all. Yeah, that doesn't make sense at all. Like, what if I never, what if Jim is an idiot and just never gets your shit together again? But I do because I'm a hustler. I now owe Jim's rest it. So Jim made $3 million and I have to pay back his $3 million. Yeah.

It's not set up. It's not set up in a way that honestly benefits the individual and really benefits society in general. Like it sucks that these people lost their money. You know, that's that that's, you know, that's a shitty situation. It's a shitty thing to do in general. But society says, well, then you have to go to prison. Okay, I went to prison.

Now I'm out. and you have to do this. Correct. Even if I paid you, then you know what it would be? Well, and you have to pay me interest. Correct. Well, I pay your interest now. Okay, but then what?

Well, I could have invested that money into stocks and I could have made this like, cut the fucking shit. Right. It's got to stop somewhere. Right. The truth is you're never going to be happy. Correct. So it's got, it has to stop somewhere.

Right. And for me, it, yeah, this shitty. It sucks that. But the government is the person who makes that deal. made that decision they're the ones who made that decision and that is the the decision that we had you know agreed to right so you know we that's already done so me coming out and out and these guys you know saying the game show is funny it is it is kind of funny it's scummy it's leans that's inside addition correct that's that's that's right that's well i mean yeah i expect it but i didn't know

that it was inside addition to begin with um you know what's funny is uh uh uh uh Oh, gosh. Tim, Tom Segorah? Tom Segorah? You know what I'm talking about? The comedian? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think it's Tom's Gord. Yeah, the Garthbrook's thing. So I've been watching more and more of his videos. Yeah. Because he says Garth Brooks is a serial killer. And he's got, and he, he, and because they've turned this whole thing into like a movement now, it was like front page of the newspaper of the Enquirer. And he held.

holds up the inquiry he's like it's good to be vindicated he goes and this is a reputable national publication this is reputable i mean it's the inquirer so it's like inside edition to me is the tv version of the inquirer yeah and i refuse to i don't care if i see a commercial for inside edition and i don't care how intriguing it might be or how i refuse they're not getting my rating it's just not going to happen. Hey, you guys, I appreciate you watching. Do me favor, hit the subscribe button, hit the bell so you can notify the videos just like this.

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