Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - How Sex Addiction Destroys Lives | The Dark Truth

Episode Date: March 16, 2025

Gene McConnell is an ex-john. At one time in his life, he had a porn addiction, was paying for sex regularly (while married), and even attempted to sexually assault a woman. Gene stopped himself, but the near-attempt and consequent arrest forced him down another path, towards dealing with his past trauma and related sex, anger, and emotional issues, as well as towards a life of talking to other men about his past, how he changed his life, and what was at the root of his exploitative behaviour and dehumanizing view of women.Today, he tours college campuses, speaking to young men about pornography and prostitution, is the founder of Authentic Relationships International, is a youth pastor, and is married with three children.Follow me on all socials!Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/insidetruecrime/TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@mattcoxtruecrimeDo you want to be a guest? Fill out the form https://forms.gle/5H7FnhvMHKtUnq7k7Send me an email here: [e-mail] you want a custom "con man" painting to shown up at your doorstep every month? Subscribe to my Patreon: https: //www.patreon.com/insidetruecrimeDo you want a custom painting done by me? Check out my Etsy Store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/coxpopartListen to my True Crime Podcasts anywhere: https://anchor.fm/mattcox Check out my true crime books! Shark in the Housing Pool: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0851KBYCFBent: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BV4GC7TMIt's Insanity: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08KFYXKK8Devil Exposed: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08TH1WT5GDevil Exposed (The Abridgment): https://www.amazon.com/dp/1070682438The Program: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0858W4G3KBailout: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/bailout-matthew-cox/1142275402Dude, Where's My Hand-Grenade?: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BXNFHBDF/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1678623676&sr=1-1Checkout my disturbingly twisted satiric novel!Stranger Danger: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BSWQP3WXIf you would like to support me directly, I accept donations here:Paypal: https://www.paypal.me/MattCox69Cashapp: $coxcon69

But this babysitter, who was six years older than I, at the age of six, she molested me. That started the whole ball rolling for me to step into sex clubs and go into prostitution, massage parlors, going to strip clubs. When you use mood-altering substances or mood-altering experiences to cope with pain, then for a season, it works. And then it no longer works because I become, it becomes norm. And so I need to upgrade it. And so that means more graphic, more disgusting, or boundaries that I said I would never cross to get the same high that I once had.

So this escalated. So I began to have fantasies of rape. And it's hard for me to even state that now as a man has been 39 years in recovery. The way I saw myself inside, the damage inside is, I could never have that woman because of, look at me, look, I'm too broken. So I'll, if I can't have that and I want that, I'll take that. When fantasy no longer satisfies, I start thinking about what is real. What would it be like to do that?

And so one night in the back of a club, this woman walked by, man, something inside this snap that said, this is your opportunity to fulfill that fantasy. Hey, this is Matt Cox, and I am here with Gene McConnell, and he is a former sex buyer, and we've got a really interesting story for you and an interesting show, so please check it out. So we just have half a little, little bit of a chat there before the show. and you were kind of telling me, you know, just about, um, about the group that you, you know, work with and, and, uh, you're a little bit about your story, but do you mind if we kind of go back to like the very beginning and talk about start just basically like where you were born

a little bit about that, you know, where you went to high school siblings? Well, the, uh, I was born in, uh, Ventura, California. And, uh, spent my time there in that Southern California until I was a fifth grade. And so I grew up in a very good environment. My parents were pastors. My grandparents were pastors and I could go on. The entire family had some kind of leadership in church environment. And I enjoyed my fifth grade. all the way to fifth grade. But California and my parents wanted us to move to Oregon and kind of get a different experience

in just California and the big city, so to speak. But in my first several years, there was a, I had a blast as a kid, but this babysitter was six years old than I. At the age of six, she molested me. She was our neighbor. She molested me more than once. And I was just looking for attention, affirmation.

She was somebody that I played with and hung out with. And she was six years older than I was. And man, that experience was profound because my childhood just literally got blew up. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know what to say. I didn't know how to communicate it. I had huge mixed emotions, ambivalage would be the word for that, but just the idea that one side of me really, I wanted to be valued and wanted and special, and the other side of me

felt dirty, soiled, damaged, shame, and so I didn't know how to talk about it, and that happened more than once that happened over a series of two, two, three, four years. I'm not sure. Many of the experiences were blurred together. But one thing for sure is that the babysitter said, if I told anybody that she would tell everybody that was my fault and that I'm the one that initiated it. And the feeling of all that feeling of being dirty and soiled and damage was huge in me. And I didn't know how to make sense of it. And so I committed to never talk about it. I committed to just move on and never, never, ever let anybody see that part of me. The one thing that really convinced me to just stay silent was, is that my body responded, did my body

responded to the touch? My body responded to the sexual interaction. At the same time, my body is responding to it. I'm also not I'm I'm fighting it disgusting and I fell on I was feeling ugly and dirty and broken and so I didn't know how to make sense of any of that and because my body responded to it and it reinforced the fact that I thought that I was that part of me was too broken to be known that part of me is too dirty to soil I can't tell anybody so I committed to keep my mouth shut never talked about it and so I the way I coached with it was as I just become a performer. So I just did extra work to make sure that people liked me that I did really good in school. I was a great... Athletics and sports. I'm sorry,

how long did this go on? I mean, this was a one-time thing or was this? No, she did this. I would I would say I have blurred memories of a lot of different encounters. I don't have the ability to hold a timeline in to every time it happened. But I can say for sure that it happened, you know, three or four times a year at least. And with these three, there was three years or four years that we were there. So after we left, we moved. Then it stopped, obviously. so but I would say you know 10 12 maybe times okay yeah and the thing is is that there's a really big deal on

that I mean the idea that you I know that it's wrong I knew that it was unhealthy there's no question about that I grew up in an environment that you know educated and talked about and understood that there were adults or older you don't have sexual encounters that's for later life If you could choose and you're growing up, I knew that. But what I have a heart part was is that there was also a side of me to enjoy it. Enjoyed it in a sense, not because anybody would enjoy abuse, but because the attention that was being given. She was saying how special I was and that she really liked me and that it really felt like she was being affectionate.

So I had a real, it was confused as to what is affection here? and so I I didn't know what was going on in her house yeah well yeah you know obviously had some issues obviously well you know kids don't pass that on unless they've been taste it themselves so I'm sure that that was going on in her world I've never

I don't even know where she is these days you know I mean so I've never talked to her going to why I know her story but the thing is is that for sure she was confused herself and she was somebody I looked up to because when I'm six, you think about a 12-year-old or 13-year-old, she's like adult, you know, she's grown up in my mic, you know. So it certainly was confusing. So I went on and there was this season in my life where I was involved in sports and I was

excelling in Little League and things were going incredibly well and this older boy who my parents his family was going through a really hard time and his parents went through

a divorce and he started getting into the alcohol and drugs and some other things and he just my parents decided to help him and so they brought him into our home. And the day they brought him into our home, he began to molest me as well.

And he was six to seven years older than I was. And he was in my bedroom because we didn't have a house where he could have a different room. So he slept in my bed. And that happened for as long as he was there. And it was in and out for about three to four years as well. And again, confusion is because this guy was somebody that I knew that would, you know, beat up my bullies. We'd go skateboard together. We'd ride bikes together. We did a lot of things together. He was like, you know, a mentor. And, uh, but slash, you know, he's introducing sections of the relationship. And again, it, the confusion was there. The confusion of, you know, what is this? I got this neon side. I went for you. You know, it's like, you know, I didn't ask for this. I didn't

engage in that on purpose. I didn't even, I didn't even initiate it. But it seems that somehow people see that and they take advantage of that. And so that happened for a long period of time. And I was very confused because outside, we'd get out goofing around when we were in school or hanging out. We were best buds and everything was just great. But it was when it just changed. when we were in this bedroom. I was going to say it's funny that there was a, and I'm sure I'm going to botch the study, but there was actually a study that showed that women,

or I'm assuming it was women that had been raped were something like 50% more likely to be raped again in their lifetime than women that hadn't. And there was another study that I remember they had people that were robbers like criminals that were robbers look at people walking down the street and they picked out with something like 85% accuracy which people were vulnerable to be robbed and those people that they were picking out like 85% of the time had been robbed like these were people that had been victims they just you know predators consent a victim And I think that's very accurate because what happens to us when we've been victimized like that is your your sense of confidence is broken. Your sense of confidence in making that healthy choice. Well, intuition is a huge thing.

Huge. And people ignore it all the time. Yeah. And so, you know, I, this happened. Not only did this boy that molest me for a period of time. I went to a camp for a summer, a couple weeks there, when I was 12. And the guy that was one of the guys that was kind of heading the camp, not heading the camp, but part of the leadership side of it.

And he, he molested me. He was 19. He molested me as well, the last night of camp. And so it's like, you know, all I did was I carried his baseball bat. I carried his gear. I did everything around, you know, served. that was kind and I was looking for mentors looking for you know healthy relationship not for anything else that I never in any way asked for that but the last night at camp he snuck into my

bed in the middle of what there was 12 other people in that in that cabin but it was like two in the morning and whatever and so how do I respond to that or somebody I respect it's somebody who I looked up to and all of a sudden now here we are again And so a lot of confusion by the age of 12, I've had this huge exposure to sex as being violating, sex that's using, sex that is not in any way shape, loving and caring and mutual. And so I had a lot of damage done very early in my life of what does even healthy look like sexually. and a lot of pain and absolutely one of the most important things in this was that I never ever ever ever told anyone no I committed that man I can't I can't talk about this just know how will they perceive me I mean I if I don't like what I'm seeing in me if I don't what I

revisit those memories and they did come but from here they're if I don't like that hell and heck will anybody else so you know heck no i'm not letting anybody so i i just recommitted that double down i'm just going to work art to outdo this crap um and uh i'll make better choices quote of quote um but when i was at my old my my my uncle's house actually i think he's more a cousin but anyhow i i was at his house and he was somebody who i looked up to who he was probably in this 40s and had a family and all that. Well, I was over his house playing Army and been over his house many, many times, but in the shed in the backyard was usually locked up.

But this time I wasn't. And so I was sneaking and hiding, you know, as we were trying to, you know, shooting each other with BB guns. I was in the shed and when I came into the shed there was two to three hundred pornography magazines and out so I'd never seen one before you know back now I'm I was born in 55 so back in those days

that pornography was not available in any way shape or form except for behind the counter so you you had to go to a grocery store and you'd have to go to a special spot or a special section for you to even grab porn or find somebody who is hazard at home would be called a spillover effect and that people would see it there or somebody had thrown in the trash so my first exposure to pornography was at this man's house where I was in the shed and I looked at for hours you know I brought the boy in that was that was

playing army with and we sat and looked at it and talked about it and laughed about it and that happened over and over and over again i mean so i'd go over to his house and i'd sneak more and and so i became immediately uh connected to the pornography and it was the same feeling this is really key to me um it was the same feeling as a sexual abuse the the though it was exciting it was arousing. It was those beautiful bodies. But at the same time, the way they treated women, the way they handled women, the language that was put around them, you know, bitches, horrors, sluts, and all those other languages. Things I won't even use these days, ever. And so there was demeaning words brought, which I was taught differently to talk about women. So there were shame

and pleasure connected. And that was the same experience that I had. when I was sexually abused. And there are a lot of studies out there right now stating that that early exposure to pornography has the same impact of sexual abuse because it wounds the ability to see sex in a healthy light. It wounds the ability to understand what it means to treat a woman, how to treat a man, what does sexuality leave him, what is healthy sexuality? And so for a child to be exposed at an early age, especially at 12 years old, when my mind

just being shaped and molded and I'm in my learning you know I'm in a very key point in life where I'm shaping how I believe about life and think about women think about men or sex pornography had approved and you know the the material of if it was just women being unclothed it would have been bad enough but but it actually you know had women being you know balance and gag women being beaten and that could go on and on and on there was a lot of demeaning very toxic very destructive ideas had they those ideas been played out in real life we'd be arrested for it right you would not be able to do that to a person and be able to stay out of ill and yet they were putting that in a glamorized sexualized arousing framework

that made it look like, especially as a kid, because they call it adult entertainment. They call adult, you know, this is how adult men treat adult women. This is what sex really is. So it was a very, very damaging education, for sure. On top of already what I was experienced in life where someone had the right to cross my sexual boundaries for their own pleasure. and so at 12 I mean I just I started consuming porn as much as I could get a whole of it

and I would go into stores and I'd steal it I would go to friends' houses and if their parents had it or they had it somewhere I'd find it we would watch it there was no such thing in the video in those days it was back in the day in the wagon days I'm 67 right now So back in the day when, you know, Hefner actually started Playboy, I was still, I was a young boy.

And so I grew up in a sexual, quote, unquote, revolution. And so porn was a big part of my growing up. And it's secret, though, because I was never allowed to consume that. My parents would definitely hunt me for doing something like that. It was totally anti-everything I grew up learning. So I was a consumer. yeah and then at 16 I made a I made a big step to say no I'm I can see how this is affected me I can see that this how this is affecting the relationships and my dating

relationships and that I you know that this stuff doesn't work when you apply it to real life you apply it to real life and people get mad or walk away or or call me names and so I realized that porn needed to stop. So at 16, I stopped. And went for, until I was about 21, I got married, had started having kids, and that first child, my wife was pregnant. Well, we got married when I was 21, and she got pregnant right after that. And so right, right at becoming 20.

she's we have our first son well why in the six months pregnancy six months of that pregnancy she woke up in the middle of night screaming and crying I just sweat all over her she was in a fetal ball position and she just I couldn't touch her I couldn't older I could kiss her I couldn't do it she just completely pushed me away and I thought what the heck is going on here and inside I thought oh my gosh somehow she knows it sees that broken part of me that I don't like that I hate and so I was like oh Lord this is over and this is just this is no this is this is done I mean I'd walk up to her she's washing dishes and come up behind her and give her a hug and she'd push me away I'd literally give her a kiss and

she'd wipe it off and I and I thought man it's just this is over it's done and reality was was that that baby triggered her own sexual abuse that she had as a child. And she didn't even, our first war started moving in her tummy. And so this started a whole lot of problems because she was pushing away and she wasn't being affectionate and she wasn't being loving. At the same time, I'm going, well, if she doesn't love me that I'm going to get this somewhere else. and so that started the whole ball rolling for me to step into sex clubs and going to prostitution and massage parlors and going to strip clubs

and go I could buy now so I could go to the pornography the adult bookstores and I could buy pornography and so I still kept it all in secret so no one had a clue that I was consuming no one had a clue that I was consuming no one had a clue that I was doing this on the side. And first, it started out really kind of small, maybe once a week, maybe once every two weeks. And then as the pressure, the marriage got worse, I used the porn and the clubs as a way to coat.

Can I ask a question? I mean, did you ever talk to her about what the issue was with her waking up and having these, you know, these nightmares and Yeah, I mean, I tried to approach it and she, she wouldn't, she didn't, she didn't talk. She just, she just was freaked out over the memories. Now, it's the only reason why I knew about the memories being triggered was as later in therapy, we were trying to figure out, you know, how we can build our marriage. you know I brought to the table that she became non-sexual absolutely had an aversion to sex and anyway she performed um and so we went to counseling for it and counseling it came out in the open um but I had never in counseling I didn't tell anybody any of this stuff I just kept my mouth

shut and just put it all on her you know I've said that her my problem with her is her that it, you know, really the truth is, is that when we started looking at it, my view, because what porn, one of the things about what porn did is as an education. And when you learn something and you believe something is true, which is that women was primary need, responsibility was to meet my needs sexually. And to, and that she would be depriving me of, love and care if we were not having sex, and that sex is the never one thing that a wife's role was, and if she's not taking care of my needs, then there I have a right to go outside of that. And that is, you know, and how even in terms of the activities, what I was expecting

her to do, things that I would see in porn, and she wasn't doing, which meant that I'm being deprived, I'm thinking that, well, this is what adults do, and you're not doing that. Therefore, and you're not wanting to do them. You're not even wanting to learn how to do that. You're totally adverse to doing this. And so I just decided, well, heck with you. I'm just going to do this myself and keep my mouth shut.

I'd say anything. And I survived doing that behind closed doors. Not knowing that I was getting worse and that this was growing and this was becoming a huge problem for me. And so every time, we started having fights, it wasn't, I didn't even try to work through it anymore. I just stepped out the door and went and did it. And so I had a very successful business and had tons of money and lots of ability to use money wherever I wanted. And so I, at the height of this, I was

probably spending, you know, three, four, five hundred dollars a week, you know, going. And, So the idea in mind is that you can't, what I didn't realize then was that this escalates, an addiction. When you used mood-altering substances or mood-altering experiences to cope with pain, then for a season, it works. And then it no longer works because I become, it becomes norm. And so I need to upgrade it. And so that means more graphic, more disgusting, or boundaries that I said I would never cross to get the same high that I once had. And so this progressed and continued to grow, and the relationship was a mess.

And the more I got involved with this, the worse it got. And so I was very, I was very, I was very, I don't know, the word would be that disgusted with myself, but at the same time, thinking that if I need to leave this relationship and then if my wife would just do these things, our marriage would be fine, not realizing that the mess I was in is really because of the mess. I mean, she could have had, if I would have responded to her in a way that was loving and caring and understanding, that I could have given her space to heal and entered this with a full presence. But what I was doing was I was numbing out. So I wasn't even aware of what she was feeling internally. I didn't even care because she wasn't meeting my needs. So I wasn't present at all. even though I was physically there

I wasn't present and so it was my mess really and a good loving man would have been to walk alongside as a woman and give her the space to heal to figure this out rather than saying if you don't perform

I'm out of here especially knowing that you know as she began to open up in counseling the trauma that she went through as a kid was unbelievable And, you know, I won't tell her story. That's her story to tell.

But it was horrendous. And what she needed was a safe man to actually show something different than what I was showing. I just basically was her father on steroids. So it was terrible. So I, so the idea that somehow if she changed that everything would have been by, it would have been crazy. You know, I needed to change. Yeah, she needed to heal. There's no doubt.

She had the work to do, but it was really in my court to make some changes as well. So this escalated. And so I began to have fantasies of rape, and it's hard for me to even state that. Now as a man has been 39 years in recovery, it bothered the heck out of me that I struggled with that and that I wanted that. and as somehow, as some kind of healthy, normal sexual eye. When I say that now, it sounds crazy, absolutely crazy, that I would see rape as a normal sexual eye. But when I think about my experience,

that all of my sexual experiences growing up were rape. And, you know, and so I, not to make any excuses, because there is no excuse to, but the reality of me, you know, been in time fantasizing a significant amount of time with dreaming and thinking about raping someone as a way to get that sexual ultimate high. And with that was the fear that I, the way I. Why just survive back to school when you can thrive by creating a space that does it all for you, no matter the size. Whether you're taking over your parents' basement or moving to campus, IKEA has hundreds of design ideas and affordable options to complement

any budget. After all, you're in your small space era. It's time to own it. Shop now at IKEA.ca. You saw myself inside, the damages. I just said, I could never have that woman because of, look at me, look, I'm too broken. So I'll, if I can't have that and I want that, I'll take that. Were you, were there any issues with alcoholism, I'm sorry, with alcohol or drugs or nothing like that? No, I was never a drinker.

Workaholism would probably be another aspect of it, because I poured myself into being successful at the cost of relationships. So I'll workaholism, but not not anything else no no alcohol no not smoking that drugs and none of that uh yeah it was it's mostly because there because when you view for and or in an orange have a sexual encounter there's a mood altering that takes place and that mood altering when you are depressed or you're lonely or you're feeling unloved or you're feeling um or angry, just take this and you are immediately changed into euphoria.

And so the drug is, it's like a drug, and you take that drug with you, because if I'm viewing porn, it's a mood altering to see those images. It immediately brings you to a different level emotionally when you're looking at. And even if those images are not things that you would agree with, they are mood altering in a sense of shock, being disgusted even, so that there is mood altering and viewing. Right. And then also kind of desensitizing. Yeah.

Like you said, it's an evolution. It's a progression. Right. Right. And then we're not even thinking about what the message is, that it's communication. communicating, you know, like, what are they doing to the woman or what are they suggesting about that woman? So we're not even thinking about that below that, but the reality is those messages get planted with the emotional eye. And so I, it was definitely an addiction and it

progressed. It didn't stop. It started out low key, you know, you know, it's the partial nudity and back in the day. And I just continued to escalate over time. and when you've seen everything there is to see and then you would start well I started looking at you know bobbage and you know things like that and you just escalate and escalate and you keep crossing lines and and for me that was that was a huge line and so when fantasy no longer satisfies then you start thinking about what I started thinking about what is real what would it be like to do that and so one night in the back of a club well it was a racquetball club not a sex club as I was getting out of the car that this woman walked by and walk into her own car and man something inside just snap that said this

is your opportunity to fulfill that fantasy there was nobody else in the parking lot it was dark And so I got out of my car and I followed her to her car. And I asked her a couple questions and broke the ice. And then as she put her racket in the car, she had her door open. She put her racket in the car. I forced my way into the car. And I had my hands around her throat full intent to rape. And she said to me, well, what are you going to do?

and she just she was she was pure fear and when I saw and this this is this was life-saving for me and for her is I saw pure fear in her eyes who was like I am I am the person who's her worst nightmare right now I'm creating fear it sounds like somebody slapped me across the face and said hello wake up you're about to destroy and another human being's life. What are you doing? And this isn't fantasy anymore. This isn't some kind of thing you're doing off in the corner somewhere. You know, this isn't just masturbating to an image anymore or to a fantasy. This is a real human being. And the reality, and I know this is going to sound really crazy and probably most people will have a hard time. I don't know.

But the reality, this is a person. This isn't a piece of meat. This isn't a commodity. She isn't a butt, she isn't a breast, she isn't something to use, she's a human being. And it came loud and clear through her eyes. And it's just like, it's like it worked me up. And I just simply said, you know what? I made a serious mistake and I'm really sorry. And I let her go, got out of my car, out of her car, excuse me, and I walked to my own car. And as I walked to my own car, she drove out and she got my license plates and she turned me in and that was almost 40 years ago and uh that was the thing that woke me up though i mean it there's no doubt that i caused a great deal of damage and there's no there's no cute thing to say about that it it was i did i know

i know i scared the hell out of her and uh there's no doubt in my mind that it caused a great more harm and fear in her world. Even though all I had done at this point was forced my way into the car, that's the only damage done or thing that I did, but I know that it was definitely traumatized. So when, I mean, she got, you know, she gave the information to the police, gave a report, told them what happened, what did they do?

They came to your house, they just a question. you? Or were they ready to arrest you? They arrested me. I mean, the thing was that I admitted to it. I actually, what I did it, I drove home and I set my white guy and I said, this is what's just happened. So I told her, oh, wow, it was blown away because she had no idea of any of this. I mean, literally, she knew that something was wrong because I wasn't, we weren't talking or

interacting we were just kind of existing um so it was really difficult to um to tell her but i knew i needed to tell her because it wasn't no more than 45 minutes later the police showed up the door and they arrested me and you know i admitted it and then i got a you know it got an attorney and then we went through all this and i'd never had a record or never had never been arrested for anything a few driving tickets, but nothing, nothing of seriousness. And so we went through court, and I had a five-year prison thing that I was facing, and they ended up reducing that down to 90 days in jail with parole. But then they ended up dropping it down even further.

And so because it was first offense, and they had me go through a whole series workshops and things so although I think that I got off a little easy I would say but I was committed to never return in jail you know the guys are all going yeah

you'll be back you know people always do and I said don't no I won't this is my wake-up call And then, you know, they didn't, they just tease me and they harassed me and all that. But that was, that was it. What were you charged with? It ended up being a misdemeanor for assault, not assault, or aggravated.

What was it? Yeah, I can't even remember. It was reduced. It was a felony and it was reduced to a misdemeanor. Yeah, because all I, what I had done, I had done nothing sexual and all, it had, and my hands were out of throat, and I pushed my way into the car. So that's all they had to work with. And, you know, I know what it was bad enough,

and I know I deserve whatever they gave. But I, you know, went through it, and I decided that it was interesting because once I went through it, there was a ton of people that were saying man i i i struggle with a lot of the stuff that you not to not to the level that you did i don't want rating but i i struggle with warring or i've been going to the clubs or i've been doing prostitution on the side or there was just a ton of people that when it came out open what are you doing to get help i need help and so what was the period of several years of me you know committed to change

and get help and determine to figure out what it takes to heal because I don't want to ever go back to this. And I was very disappointed in how counseling was available, what kind of counseling was available. The only real help out there at the time was, is you go into a group and you say, hi, I'm a sex offender, and this is who I am for the rest of my life. And you will never be anything other than that and everything has looked through as light through that lens. And I just didn't like that because what they did was they pretty much guaranteed that that's what I will be for the rest of my life. It's stupidity.

Yeah, I made some serious mistakes. Yes, I hurt other people. There's no question. But I can change and that their life is not just that. and that there are many things about me and, you know, that I chair, I love people, I serve well, I'm a good professional, I'm a good dad, I'm a good, and now I'm a good husband. Did you stay married? No, she left. She just let it. I mean, we stay together for her season, but she just couldn't hang with what came out in the open. And I understand.

up her worst memories, her worst nightmares. And no matter what I did, actually, I was in the best shape period I could have been in my journey. But she just could hang. And I would, you know, I look back on it. I totally understand. I get it. I am no ill feelings towards her and her decisions and that, I get it. Right. As a getting into counseling, you actually, start looking at the severity of what you did and how it impacted others it was it it that's sobering and and I think this is where most people feel in the area of recovery is is that we tend to look at we tend to look at what's happened to us and we stay stuck there like woe is me I was a victim you know I had sexual abuse in my

story, why don't you understand that? And we could certainly stay there and quite frankly need to work there. There's no doubt that I was wounded in that I need healing and I need to work through that and I needed to change some of the thinking. But most of the what I find in the offender's side of things is they're still stuck in their victim side, not realizing that they're reacting out of that pain and hurting others, and they're blaming that they're not looking at or taking ownership to what they're doing. They're stuck in what happened to them and not looking at what they've done. And so it's not, and you can't focus just on what they've done either. You just say that that person's an offender, well, look at the story behind it. Look at the reality that that's a

human being who, who as, there isn't a story, there isn't a story, there isn't a story. that I haven't worked with, that, I mean, and what I mean is that, what, that I haven't heard in who's been an offender, who has not been offended. And it's just, they go together. And hurt people, hurt people. It's not an excuse. It's a reality. And so if I'm going to really help someone change their life, they've got to look at where

all this stuff started. And it doesn't give them an excuse. while I was hurt, so I hurt somebody. No, that's not what we're saying. Because if we did that, then we give everybody a free ride. No, we realize that, no, if we've been hurt, we better get some help. Don't hold on to it. Don't swallow it.

Don't keep it under. You know, if you're struggling, you don't keep it under. Because as long as you keep it secret, it grows. It doesn't. Keeping things in dark causes it to grow. So coming out in the open in a safe place, if I would have to have, had a place where I could have talked about this. I don't know if I was, I carrying so much shame, I don't know if I could have talked.

The way this came out in the open was a forced deal. And, but thank God, I look back at it now. I'm glad it did. I'm not glad it happened to her. So there was no, there was no glamour of that. But the reality that it came out for me was my first step for help. And if I didn't have it out in the open, I don't know. if I could have talked about it. I don't know if I could have ever said, hey, you know, I struggle

with, you know, rape fantasy. Or, hey, I, I, I'm going to prostitutes. You're married and you have kids, really? Are you serious? You, you weirdo. There's such a perception of sexual when there's sexual dysfunction involved that people are perverts or weirdos or free labels that make it impossible for a person who struggles to ever talk. And the first step is to talk. And the first step is to talk. You can't, you can't heal what you hide. Right. Yeah, I definitely. I definitely believe that, you know, um, so how, so after you got, you got out of the jail stint, your wife, you know, she hung out for a little bit, but it just didn't work out. And what did you do? Did you, I mean, was this something that immediately happened or?

Did you continue, I'm sorry, go ahead. No, go ahead. I'm going to say, did you continue, you know, this, I mean, was that the wake-up call and everything, you know, all better at that point, or did it, was it a progression? You know, I made a decision when I was arrested that I was going to change. I had no idea what that meant, though. I thought I was just going to be, okay, I'm turning around right here. This is it, done. So in jail, you know, while I was there, I made a commitment to, to shift and change.

And when I walk out, I'm going to be a different person. Right. Like I said, there's really nowhere to go. No, to nowhere to go. But I think when I got out of jail and I came back to the reality of a mess relationship that didn't go away, in fact, it just got 20 times worse. So the pain of that relationship and learning that that's how I learned to cope was to go to sex, pornography. So I had I struggled for a while not anywhere close to the same level that I did before.

The rate fantasy crap has gone and all that kind of stuff. But the reality was is that I still went to clubs, still went to massage burlers as a way to to compensate for what I wasn't getting in the real world. And it took a while for me to work out what when I was doing and what is the dysfunctional and what is not, because it was really confusing. I mean, I didn't really know. I knew that what I did wasn't right, and I knew that it needed to change because it clearly hurt somebody else, but I had no idea. So it took me, I'd say several years of being in recovery, doing groups, seeing a counselor, reading books, going to retreat, doing an intensives, just a whole lot of different things to help me begin to understand how to change. The thing was that most recovery stuff back in the day, especially, was behavioral. So it's like you just don't do that anymore. And here's what you do to change that. So it was all behavioral.

So we just change everything on the outside. But the truth is, is everything that you see behavior wise is a fruit is a symptom of something deeper. And if I'm really going to help someone change, I got to look at how did that point? how did that get started? Where did that begin? So we look at beginning places. We look at where things start and if you deal with roots, then the fruit is no longer existence. But if you play games with the fruit, in other words, game, meaning I stop this, don't go there, don't run with these people, don't buy that, don't use this, then that's like cutting off the branch. And when

you cut off a branch, all you've done is prune it. And pruning is never meant to get rid of anything. Pruning is a strategy to have more fruit. So when you cut off a branch, the very life that brought that branch about still exists. So the root system, then the life that was bringing that branch about goes back into the roots, builds a bigger root system, and then comes back with more life, comes back with more fruit. So what it means is that no matter how many times I said no, that I'll never do this again, it always come back and it came back stronger it kind of came back even worse so the idea that I can change the behavior without changing what's going on on the inside is not happening

and so any kind of treatment program that focuses in on just the fruit in other words an offender program you're just you're just going after the behavior you're not dealing with what's really going Yeah, and you're looking at behavior or mod. So behavior modification only lasts for a temporary basis. That's why we see people reoffend and reoffend and reoffend. And people have a really difficult time not saying, there's a statement at what's offended, they're always an offender. So don't give somebody who's offended any breaks.

I mean, there's just one time away from, one step away from, offending. And I would agree with that if all you do is do behavior. behavioral mod. But if you actually deal with what is really going on, which we do, the works that I do, we see people completely change, if they want to. Because some people, and this is just reality, some people will jump through the hoops, but inside, they don't want to change. They want to stay with, they want everybody to leave them alone. They want to still do what they want to do, and there's now getting them to change. And so, yeah, they'll jump through the right hoops to get to get the law off their back, and then they reoffend, and they reoffend, and they reaffent, and they

reaffent. And those people should never see the light of day work-wise, or they should be in prison. So, if they re-offend, and they re-offend, they need to be there. And they show and demonstrate that they can't live in society and not hurt people. But especially in child molestation, a child offender, we've seen, and we've had those as well, is that they actually see themselves as loving that child, that they are actually nurturing that child. That's a true molester, pedophile is someone who believes that they are loving that child. And what we find is the roots to that is that whatever age they were sexually abused or damaged, doesn't have to be sexual abuse, but whatever at age that they were wounded, they're emotionally

arrested, and they stopped growing emotionally in that area. So they still see themselves and parts of themselves as at age. So if they were molested or they were hurt, they were at eight years old, then they're going to like kids around eight, nine, ten, seven, six. So they find kids attractive based on the age that they stopped growing. And so if they don't, don't address that and they don't face that and they actually don't grow up and take adult things and heal then they will always want children at that age because that's how they and so they don't see any advances that they make towards children right I was going to say I was I don't know if you know this I was incarcerated but I was at a at the uh federal prison

complex in in Coleman Florida and at the you know I was at the medium security prison but I was also at the low for a time and at the low there's a like nearly nearly half the compound has some kind of a some kind of a sex crime

and you know although I'd say 90% of them are lying about it They'll tell you they're there for something else, but, you know, it just, it just becomes, it's so obvious. And there's such a large group of them that they don't really have to hide it. But I definitely, after speaking with, you know, numerous offenders and, you know, everything you're saying is like spot on. And in some cases, they would, like you said, they would actually want to mount an argument that they actually actually want to mount an argument that they actually actually. actually, you know, love this child, we're giving them affection and that sort of thing. And, and like you said, all of them had been abused as children. Like, I don't think I ever spoke with anybody that hadn't been abused. Even if they didn't consider it abuse, like they were 11 or 12 and there was a cousin or a brother

or sister that was touching them inappropriately, even if they were like, you know, well but you know that happens to everybody and it's like well no no it does it you know and obviously even if it happens to a lot of people it had a had a dramatic effect on them because they suddenly were attracted to 11 or 12 year old you know girls or boys or whatever it may be um you know i used to always say you know in a real in a very real way you know you have to you know you have to feel bad for them because they were victims before they became predators. And I used to say, you know, the problem is that, you know, once, you know, once they became predators, like you, as sad as it is, what put them in that situation, you just can't let monster, monster roam the countryside.

I mean, and, you know, it's just such a, such a shitty situation. It is. And I think you don't do this with the idea of mine, well, we just got to let them, you know, they were molested as a child or they were harmed as a child. So therefore, we have to have some kind of, you know, mercy on the consequences. Mercy on the consequences would actually allow them like a child. If you, if a child doesn't, yeah, it was just, you know, if child disobeys and does something wrong, you don't let the child go without consequences. Right. So then they're creating monsters. Exactly. So. So, consequences are vital to someone's health. And the consequence is that they spent the rest of their

life in jail based on what they did. Then they spent the rest of their life in jail. But can the person change? Absolutely. The consequences, you can't pull consequences in the name of helping someone. You don't help people by enabling them for the messes they've created. And so I would say that, you know, I've had several individuals who had had a prior history of molestation, of being molested but also molesting. And they went and spent time in jail. They've done their time. And then they did their time, but they did their work.

And then they come out and they do the work anyhow. Even though it's not required, they went beyond the requirements. Why? Because they want to heal. They want to change. They want to be different. That person is going to come in an inner society. differently. And so the idea that someone who jumps through the hoops as long as they have to and then goes and lives a different life completely once they get out and that different life is back in the same way that they got I'm arrested. And there's just a walking time bomb.

I was going to say, you know, what's funny is that although sex offenders, you know, have a high recidivism rate, they have a high recidivism rate. They have. have a, it's, but for the actual crime, it's much lower. So the actual recidivism rate for reoffending on a sexual crime is much lower than, let's say, a drug dealer gets out, he's going to sell drugs again, you know, well, not going to, but whatever the recidivism rate, it's almost 90, like, 5% that he's going to sell drugs. They very seldomly, you know, reoffend for a sex offense. Not that they don't, but they very sell. Most of the time when these guys reoffend, it's because of another crime. Like, what's happened, I think, is that you've taken them and put them into a position where now they can't make a living.

They can't live anywhere. They get desperate. So they don't register or they have to steal to survive or they break into someone's house or they start doing other things to survive. And then they end up back in prison. Well, yeah, you did, you did reoffend, but it wasn't for looking at child, you know, pornography or whatever it may be. So, you know, that wasn't what typically, I'm not saying, I think it's low. It's like three or four percent reoffend for the actual original offense. You know, typically it's something else.

But the thing is, it's interesting, is that when we label someone, in other words, offenders, let's just go with that. Once it affects, they're always offended. And then you have a court system that when they get out, that they literally will never get past that label, that they will literally have to live that label out. Now, I get, I do, I get it, I understand the idea that the society needs to be safe. And there's not, I don't have any qualms with that. But when we say that that is who they are for the rest of their life and that they never have a chance to ever change, then we set them up big time for failure. right do and so we forget and this is really really big this is that when we label people we we we they're no longer human they're this label so we strip humanity away from an individual with a label and it's just a horrible situation all the way around like the problem is I just don't like there's just no good answer yeah there's just no good solution it's you know you've got guys on one side of the of the fence and just you know execute them you know You've got guys on the other side of the fence, you know, who are maybe like, oh, they did their time.

They should go, well, you know, no. I mean, that's not really the, the answer is probably somewhere in between and it is just, there's just no perfect solution. And the problem is that every, every sentence doesn't fit everybody. It has to be tailor made. Yeah. It's totally different. Totally. It's a tough situation.

It is. see the thing is though if we know where i where i what makes my work different than most there's there's i'm not the only one out there doing this obviously but but what makes mine different is is that we look at the roots and the one a lot of i'll hear a lot of people say well we deal with root issues as well but actually knowing what the root is and understanding what the root is is is really key so the number one source of any of this is shame. And if we don't look at shame and we don't understand what shame is, then we don't address it and we don't give them the tools to address it, then shame will

ultimately win back and they'll be back in behaviors to cover that shame. And so shame is at the center of all addiction, at the center of all dysfunction, truthfully. And so what shame is, is it's a belief that I'm flawed at the core, that there's something really wrong with me. And I've got to cover it. I can't let me be seen. Why is that so important? Because the number one need in life is to be known and to be loved. So it's the word, into me see. So intimacy is not sex. Intimacy is relational, that you see me for who I am and you know me and you love me. That's the number one need across the board, whether that's male or female. It doesn't matter. And what we have done is especially porn culture has said that women's need is intimacy and men's need as sex. And so the

idea that we go into a relationship and we get married or we're a committed relationship and we decide we're going to walk this out with someone is that the man has a right because he's saying that he's being exclusive. In other words, not looking anywhere else. He's going to pour himself into that one relationship. And if she's not giving him sex, then he has a right because it's need. It's not like it's, you know, they're perceiving it as just like you drink water, getting air, eating food, getting rest. They're putting it in that same framework. So if you don't get sex, you have a right to go outside and look for it somewhere else. The idea that she owes you sex, that whole thinking is really toxic and destructive. Because now we're

not seeing women as women. We're seeing women as are sex. Like, it's no different. than having masturbation, only I found somebody to give it to, so that masturbating to a woman's body, whether than seeing her as an individual as a person. So intimacy is the need, and that both men and women carry it, but when I just need to be known and to be loved, that is like breathing air. I need that. And I have shame, which says, to be known is the death of you. So the fear, so shame then cuts off what I need. So if I don't get my real needs met, which is intimacy, which is to be known, to have close connection with others,

then I reach out to then use things to meet that need. And for porn and sex and all that, I'm using people to get that need back. And so I reduce something to an object. I use something that won't reject me, that won't hurt me, that won't walk away, that I can use to get that quote-unquote need met. So some people choose drugs, some people do alcohol, some people do food,

some gambling, we could go on and on and on. But they use something. It's not connect with something. They use something. And so when we objectify women, which is what Ford does, and we see women through the lens of their body, rather than as a human being, as their soul, how they think, with the feel.

When we objectify, then we're using, women not connecting. And so shame plays a significant role in causing all of this to happen. Because if I have a connected life, in other words, people know me, and they actually see my mistakes and they see my flaws, and they walk alongside me and they support me as I get help and there to help support me in any way they can't, that they love me and accept me and know me, man that brings by heart alive that brings there's there's connection there's there's life there there's something to celebrate wow and having that celebration of connection is what changes life

and so if i'm going to help people heal and change it won't be just to stop the behavior it will be here's how we really get what we want here's what obviously that shame is what stops them from getting to that point. Yep. You know? Like they're not going to reach, people don't want to reach out because they're embarrassed. And they, you know, it's, um, yeah, I, it's, you know, this, this is this shitty situation. Yeah.

It's all the way around. Like, you know, who wants. And it just like like with, in your case, you know, had you reached out earlier, had you not been trying to hide this. and felt like, hey, there's a place I can go, there's somebody I can talk to, I don't have to be embarrassed about this, I need to deal with this, then you wouldn't have gotten to that point. Exactly.

It would have arrested it. It would have stopped it. It would have broken that path. You know, like alcoholics, a lot of times, I mean, not everybody has to hit rock bottom, obviously. Some people realize they have a problem. They just, I'm going to cut it out. But I'd say a good, a significant portion of addicts in general have to hit,

kind of a rock, a rock bottom to say, hey, I can't live like this, you know. So. Yeah, no, you're right. And, you know, so shame says, shame is a belief. It's not just a feeling. It's a belief. And the belief is that I'm too broken to be loved. And where did that start? Started at six years old for me, you know, the shame that I internalized what happened to me as who I was. And so I didn't want anybody to see that. Now, what I needed in that moment. We bring this to an understanding of how it can change as well. This is that at six years old, what did I need? If I would have told my parents, my parents would have cried with me. They would have, they would have went and confronted the offender. They would have done what they needed to do

for me to get help. My parents would have not in any way, shape, or form said, oh, wow, you're too dirty to be love, we're throwing outside. So it's not what they would actually do, but it's what I perceive them to do. It's how I perceive myself. So I go into Heidi, but what I needed to be at that moment is that little six-year-old boy needed to be known. That little six-year-old boy needed to let people know that he was hurting. Someone just took his innocence. He's confused, that he doesn't know how to perceive himself. And that's where the lies began. The lives start and those experiences early in childhood, and they grow. And then when they grow, they grow based upon how I use things.

And I don't want people to know that I'm doing this to cope. And so I keep hiding, and I keep hiding, keep hiding, keep hiding. And really, what I need is someone to know and help and support. Someone to care about me, any at it. And so shame sabotages our need for intimacy. and that is the number one need. And if we could help people actually learn how to live a connected life, how do you open up, how do you set boundaries, how do you have conflict,

how do you risk your heart, how do you trust, how do you be vulnerable? Because when I was sexually abused, being vulnerable was like, that's crazy because when I was vulnerable, people took advantage of my innocence. No, I'm never going to be vulnerable again. I'll take control. I'll always be in power. I'll always be and how do you do that? We can't do that in a relationship. You can only do that when you objectify someone. You make them an underling. You make them somebody you can control. So I'm in power. So what, where did this lead you? Did you, you work with

a group or? Yeah, what it did was that the change, the change happened and it's kind of started at a very simple event and then it just kind of grew. That event was that when I was arrested and I spent time in jail, I literally lost all my, I lost all relationships. There was a few people that stayed there. But for the most part, everybody I saw was a friend and was gone. And quite frankly, I don't want to play the victim here and say, well, what was me in that? The reality is I lied to people. I broke trust with people. I mean, you just just the lifestyle I was living behind the scenes. I get it.

I understand that it was tough for people because the person that they knew me to be was not the person. And so it was deception. It was betrayal or trust. So I get why they walked away. So I don't want to say that somehow I'm some kind of victim in that. But the reality of it is is that I couldn't be real and be open. and for fear of how they would handle me. And then they lived out my greatest fear.

And so I just, I just got worse for the first, first part, I was, I was closed off. I pulled away. I was still going to the clubs. And this guy who I had known for a long time since I was a kid,

he was a, a pastor of a very large church in California. And he used to come and do some of the, the retreats that I would go to in the summertime. And in a long story short, he called me one day and he said, hey, I haven't heard from me a long time. You know, why don't we get together? And he lived about three hours away.

And I said, no, I got so much going on. I don't really have time. He just wouldn't take no for an answer. And he had no idea that I had been arrested. He had no idea that I got through any of this. and so finally he talked me into it so i i said okay i'll come down and uh so i i i i had three hour drive i'm thinking okay i'll talk about the weather i'll talk about sports i talking about the dodgers i'm not talking about anything serious i'm just not going to have any real conversation

and so i come into the to the office and i sat out and and i have my speech so to speak and So I started talking, you know, I said, talked about the weather, how it's, you know, it's nice and hot, just a bunch of things. And then, I don't know, maybe five, two minutes gone, went by. And then he said, so how are you really doing? And I just, I, for whatever reason, I, to this day, I don't know what the heck happened, except for that I decided to just let it out. and so I just literally poured I mean not just a little bit

I just like vomited I mean vomited all of this stuff you know everything that I all the stuff I'd never told anybody I just put it all out there I'd say I was there a couple two to three hours I don't know I'd have no idea I lost time I lost I just

I wept I had snot run out of my nose I was just I was a mess literally and I got it all out and he gets up from behind his desk now He's between me and the doorway. I'm over at the corner. He's got nowhere to go. And so he's walking towards me, and I'm thinking, oh, my gosh,

he's going to throw me and throw my ass out of here. And so I stand up and my fists are clenched and I'm ready to deck him because of one more person that does what the others. People have done, I'm taking them out. I've had it. And he comes up and he just puts a wrestler's hug on me. And, I mean, literally just gives me this strong hug. And he buried his head in the side of.

my neck and he just began to weep. He just happened literally I mean tears were flowing and I'm thinking what that heck and he just said I'm so sorry that you never had anybody ever really love you

or accept you for your I'm sorry all those things those things happened to you and I'm here to walk this out with you now to be honest I'm not 29 30 up 30 years old somewhere in there and here's For the first time in my life, I'm tasting, you know, was we just described intimacy.

Intimacy has nothing to do with sex, has zero to do with sex. Intimacy has to do with connection. And here's this man who has heard my worst, literally, my worst. And he's embracing. And no sex, no garbage, just embracing. and it profoundly shifted my heart profoundly. Now, I had a lot of learning to do about what he just gave me because I thought, whatever he was given,

I want more of that. I don't know what it was what he just did. There's no magic wand there. What did he just do? Because it turned my heart around inside. What it did was it gave my heart life. It gave my heart the will to change, the will to do something. And so I jumped, you know, over a journey of getting small groups and started sharing and I got a counselor and I really start digging it in.

Over a period of time, I realized now that what he gave was the first taste of what intimacy is. And so it was his interaction with me that started the bowl really role for recovery and change. And so, I mean, I built a life where I have not just one, but I have a ton of people who know me inside and they're not hidden. And they will walk alongside me, they support me, and they love me. I do the same with them. And so when you have a heart that's full, and I mean full, meaning not how much money I got, not how many titles I got next to my name,

Not how much toys I've collected over life. But when I actually have a heart full, full of what connection? I was created for a relationship. Ben? And I'm not a human being. I'm not a human being. And so no doing. For a limited time at McDonald's, enjoy the tasty breakfast trio.

Your choice of chicken or sausage McMuffin or McGrittles with a hash brown and a small iced coffee for $5. bucks plus tax available until 11 a.m. at participating McDonald's restaurants. Fresh excludes flavored iced coffee and delivery. Compensates for the lack of being, which is connection. And so when I tasted that, when I got that, that that was a change for me. That was a move for me. Now, it didn't change everything, obviously. I had a lot of work to do, but it gave me the energy. And that's really key here. Because I've put tools in front of people, I've given people, and chances to change and all that all you can imagine and them not having the energy to pick those tools up and do it is huge because it people still think or carry shame inside that

somehow they're too broken that never change they can't get past this you don't understand look at the mess that I see and so by having intimacy where we really know it we actually give people the energy to actually change and they put that energy towards learning and growing and healing. And so I believe that all my heart, based on, you know, 30 plus years now of helping people, is we help them learn how to connect, which means intimacy.

It means how do you open up the real stuff and build relationships around you? And where life happens in your interactions, you won't go back. Why would you settle for hot dogs when you could have steak and lunch? you won't go back he just won't um doesn't mean you won't be challenged but why would i give up what i've got when i've wanted all my life then there's a lot of us to even know how to put

words to that you know we don't know what we want but we know there's something better that there's something out there more than what we're experienced uh and the reality of it is it's the shame that we carry keeps us from connection so we break the shame by being open. We break the shame by allowing people to see us, and then we learn to change those belief systems that says we're shit, that we're no good, that we don't matter, and we turn those around. We began to change it by the relationships around, the people that communicate, I am worth it, that I do matter, that I am important, that I am special, that I have uniqueness and it's to be celebrated. So it changes everything. So the game changer is,

breaking shame, giving people the tools to build a healthier relationships in their life. And it doesn't mean you have to have 30 relationships. Just have one life-giving relationship. You don't need to be an extrovert to do this, but you need at least one person who knows you with no protection, with no hiddenness, no secrets. Because that's where a real connection happens. when someone knows me and knows my flaws,

knows what I have my fears, my weaknesses, and they know my strengths, my gifts, my calling, if you will, and they know what I'm passionate about, and they love me, man, that's a light to celebrate. That's the gets excited. So when two people know each other like that, then that celebration of, wow, we have connection. Sex is the result.

healthy sexuality is when it's a result of it's a fruit of that connection sex doesn't create connection sex is a fruit of connection and so the why people go to sex is because sex is I mean there's no hiddenness there's the you see the body you see fully and there's nothing hidden so but so sex has the illusion of intimacy but the truth is you can have sex with someone totally no clothes everything's nothing hidden and you still walk away not knowing each other i mean i did that for years i mean doesn't make no so no matter how many times you have sex with someone and you see their body they see you they don't know each other they don't know your history you don't know them that you so intimacy is not sex but they can come together only when well you know

in a healthy way that they come together when you have the connection first that intimacy and then sex becomes the outflow but we pornography just simply says no you just you can do it this way and that way and if you you're struggling sexually you just add spice to it you just end another part you just get new toys or you do this you do new positions and reality is none of that actually brings long-term satisfaction actually what brings satisfaction is you work on your connection, your sexual relationship changes. So people who are struggling sexually in their relationship, it's not about finding out, you know, more information about what positions and all that, although I'm not against it. It's that you really lack what to celebrate. I mean,

you don't have nothing to celebrate. So the lack of things to celebrate is the lack of sexual connection. And yeah, you can have orgasm. And you can have all that and still, feel like you aren't really going anywhere. And why is that? Because the lack of connection. So you build connection and the sex becomes a natural outflow from them. And that's missing. It's missing in all of the culture. We keep thinking that sex is what makes us all connect.

And that's putting a cart before the horse. So I say that to say, if we're going to help people heal, it won't be that we help them with a sexual part first. it will certainly be there. But the bigger piece is addressing the shame and giving people the tools on how to live a connected life. Okay.

That was a lot. A bountiful. Sorry. That's fine. I feel like you've said that before. You've got it down. Yeah. It makes all the difference in the world, bro.

It just does. And it's made the difference on my world. I mean, I've been out, you know, almost 40 years. I'm not gone back. I've never been arrested again. I've never been in that world again. You know, I'm done. And I never will.

And there's so much to life. There's so much to offer. My life is different. But, you know, I still have to face consequences of those choices back in the day. You know, I still have my, some of my, kids still are wounded from that that I'm still having to work through them I lost a marriage of 27 years with that you know that first marriage and um it you know there's a lot of damage done but now when I look though as I've restored my relationships and I've worked through the pain

of all I have an amazing woman in my life and we know each other we walk each other we walk alongside we celebrate we're part our true partners and oh yeah we still have messes but we know it and we work on it. And I couldn't. I'm on top of the world relational. And I feel like life is what it should be, you know. And I'm 70-7. I wish I'd have known this when I was younger. But it's taken a lifetime to figure it out. But we do that. We bring people in. We do groups and we do these retreats. We're pursuing the hidden art. For men, we do called authentic manhood, and we deal with what is the masculinity aspect, and we look at what it takes to heal the broken areas of our life.

We look at sexuality, we look at pornography, and talk about all that stuff, talk about being a father and a husband, just living in the world as a man, what does it mean to be healthy? So we do these retreats and workshops, and people come out. going, wow, this has put me on a whole different trajectory. And they don't walk away going, I'm changed, I'll never be the same. They walk away with, wow, this profoundly helps me see where I need to go, what I need to do. And I tasted something I've never tasted before, and I want to learn more. And so this is a journey.

Nobody gets a magic wand. Nobody gets a quick fix. But we can turn things around and make things different. and that they do the work, absolutely change possible. I'm a living example that as many others that I've worked with. That your behaviors,

let me say it this way. Your mistakes that you've made, the things that you've done around, do not have to be the definer for how you live your life out now. Right. You can turn your life around and you can change it

if you want. I hear you. I did 13 years in prison. I got out like four years ago, you know. Good for you. I mean, I'm really proud of you because it takes a lot of strength to do what you just did. Really? You know, it really does.

And not let people, you know, pigeonhole you in. And, you know, look what you're building. Look what's happening. I feel like they have pigeonholed me, though. I run a true crime channel. Oh, brother. Well, I talk about his crime. I really did, but I did it to myself.

Well, who says this is where you end up, right? No, I love, I love what I do. I mean, I talk to, you know, I felt, you know, very free in prison, you know, because, you know, I wasn't lying to anybody. I wasn't running some kind of a scam or a fraud. I wasn't concerned about being arrested and I didn't have to pretend to be, you know, to pretend to be like an honest businessman when really I was committing fraud and, you know, sit around with my friends who were all normal people, decent citizens. And, you know, I didn't have to be a wolf in sheep's clothing. You know, I could be a wolf among wolves. And I felt good being that open. And so I've just carried that on out here and turned it into a way to make money, you know, make a living just, you know, having people tell their stories because these guys have amazing stories. And, you know, sometimes they're amazing stories of recovery and triumph and redemption, you know,

and sometimes there's just, you know, horrific stories that maybe they don't have a great ending. You know, they're still in the middle of their journey, you know, but they have stories. They have interesting stories. And I have yet to meet anybody. who's gone to prison, it doesn't have it at an interesting story. They might not have a six hour story. It might be 45 minutes, but they've got they've done something that was that was unique and interesting, maybe horrific, you know, you know, maybe ingenious. But they've, they've got a story to tell. And, and I like it when they come to me and I talk to them and they

can tell it honestly. Because, I mean, I'm not in a position to judge anybody. right so it's a it's a it's a good living you know it's a good it's a good way to make a living well the thing is is that you you can take what has happened to you what you've the things that mistakes you've made and things that have happened and you can have a redemptive story a redemptive framework in other words the what has been could have been a defining moment which would have been for the rest of your life or you've chosen to use it as a stepping stone, a place where you can choose to have impact on lives and make a difference. The stories make a difference. People's stories are so important without the stories that all we have is objectification. All we have is labels.

And by having stories, we get what's behind the eyes, what's real. And stories will always be the most important part of anything. So what you're doing is provide a real platform for people to take a little bit look at their own lives and learn or the loved ones that they have their relationship but you put humanity to the issue that's good good now well listen i i appreciate you coming on do you have anything you have anything else you feel like we haven't covered or no i think i think one what i think in wrapping things up um is the idea that you know objective

objectification is really is really a reflection of my inability to connect and so our fear of women are afraid to be a fear of being intimate

is such a big deal and if we're if we really want to see change happen for all of our lives is learning to connect with people rather than objectify you rather to try to control or and the whole idea that control meaning that I don't want people to know me I I control to keep people at a distance so they don't get too close to expose my stuff and if you're living authentically If you're in other words, I'm living in the open with at least one person. I don't have to do that with every human meat.

But you let certain people in and other people you don't because they're toxic and they're destructive and you don't want any harm done to you anymore. But learning how to pick those safe people and healthy relationships and be connected so that I can learn how to not use people but connect with people. And that is a commitment that I've made is that, I always choose, I choose to walk a life of connection. And, you know, you go into a gym and, you know, sometimes women are almost wearing nothing. And you can choose to objectify and look at that and fantasize and all that.

Or you can choose to move past that and see that there's a human being standing there. and let go of the old objectification thing and see that it pursue the person. It happens at everyday life. Everything that we do is either based on using or connecting and be a person who pursues connection, be a person who chooses to love people, care about people rather than use people.

And that's been my journey now. How do I use the remaining part of my life to connect, to heal, to empower, to help people change. Yeah. So thank you for the time I've had. And which is good. Enjoyed it.

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