Matthew Cox | Inside True Crime Podcast - How She Exposed ‘The Most Hated Man on the Internet’ | Charlotte Laws

Episode Date: June 8, 2023

How She Exposed ‘The Most Hated Man on the Internet’ | Charlotte Laws

And this man in his 60s comes up to me and says, I just won $13,000 damling. I'd like to buy you a diamond bracelet, no strings attached. And my friends would go to the bar or go bowling. And I'd be like, no, I'd rather hang out with the president or Michael Jackson. I mean, to me, that was more interesting. And so I had been doing it. So she sent them to her email to save them. And then she was hacked.

And then after getting hacked, her topless picture showed up on Hunter Moore's website, is Anyone Up.com, along with her name, her city, and her social media link. But the one thing he didn't anticipate was Charlotte Laws. He came after my daughter. He needed to be brought down. I'm going to be interviewing Charlotte Laws, and I actually came across Charlotte's story as a result of another interview. And a documentary i saw on netflix called it was called um the most hated man on the internet it was about hunter more and i i just remember watching the interview and i ended up talking to another guest about about charlotte and essentially hunter more was just wreaking havoc and

putting up you know well he was organizing a hacking scheme to hack into people's email account or people's accounts and Facebook accounts and getting, you know, naked pictures and videos of people and posting it on this website. And he ended up crossing Charlotte's path. And she kind of, not kind of, I mean, according to, I will know for sure, but according to the documentary, she turned into his worst nightmare and eventually got him indicted for what he was, for the hacking scheme and ended up bringing down the site and Hunter Moore,

which, you know, as far as I could tell a pretty despicable person. I talked to Dan, and he said that, you know, he, he was saying that you had like a really interesting story and that, you know, your backstory. He was like, your backstory is as interesting as the whole Hunter Moore thing, which for you is probably just kind of a glitch. But, you know, people end up getting notoriety for things that, you know, they don't typically think of but so so i appreciate you doing this and i guess my my first kind of question is you know

where were you where were you raised like california is it i was actually raised in atlanta georgia and i think you lived there for a little while didn't you um i i stopped by there and picked up some money okay i just read that online on your bio and then you spent time in florida too so and I did as well. But I was raised in Atlanta, and I was a debutante, so it was the High Society, Atlanta, and I never fit in. I was the black sheep. I was called an N-lover all the time.

I was attacked and ridiculed for my views because I was supported the civil rights movement and that kind of thing, and most of my friends didn't. And I also had a very tragic family life. I was adopted at birth, but my adoptive dad was. abusive verbally abusive my adoptive mom committed suicide but she didn't die right away it took her 10 years so she was semi-conscious uh in a convalescent home for 10 years and she could only move half of her body and she slurred her words and that kind of thing was really a really horrible situation a suicide gone wrong like it was a suicide where it didn't she didn't succeed but she got

brain damage and so um she cut her wrists and her neck and took her pills in the bathtub. And it was really horrible because my little brother, who was two years younger than me, is the one who found her. And he was much closer to her than I was. And so I just felt so bad that he had to go through this horrible trauma with, you know, this whole thing because my mom had sent me to the mall to get tennis shoes. So I didn't get home until like seven o'clock that night. Everything had already happened. The police had already left. I mean, my dad and my brother were there, but it was like no one else was there anymore. So I missed the whole thing, you know, frankly, I'm not too sad about that because I really wouldn't

have wanted to be home for it. And then two years after that, my mother was killed in a car accident. And he was also adopted at birth as well. But my dad, after my mom committed suicide or tried to commit suicide, however you want to say it, the day after that happened, he said, you were never to visit her mother or mention her name in this house. again and he filed for divorce. So I had to sneak my little brother who couldn't drive because he was 14. I was 16. I had a car. I could drive. I had to sneak him to the convalescent home to visit our mom behind my dad's back because he had forbidden us to see her. What? Do you know why? That seems I think it was just, you know, he just felt it with a negative thing and he just wanted her and the

entire experience out of his life. I'm guessing. I mean, I don't know. My dad was a very unemotional. guy, a very, not a very nice person. He died a couple of years ago. He died actually at the beginning of COVID, but not of COVID. He was 93 years old at the time. And he, you know, he was verbally abusive, you know. So like when my brother died in the car accident, I was at University of Florida at that time. And so I came back to Atlanta for the funeral. And the first thing my dad said to me, he was standing in the kitchen. And he said, you were, you are. You are, you always the bad one your brother was the good one you're the one who should have died not him that's the kind of thing my dad would say to me a lot and i still remember those words you know so um i just wanted to

escape as a kid i mean i had this horrible um family life my family was also very racist this adopted family and um and then i had the community that i didn't fit in and you know and luckily there were you know, I had the television and I realized because of the TV that not everybody was like the people that I knew, you know, growing up. And I realized there were people who were not prejudiced. I mean, I just, you know, saw them as very open-minded. I love the flashy clothes that entertainers would wear. So I was very drawn to that. And that's when I decided, you know, I kind of started gravitating towards meeting people in the entertainment industry. And, um, that's kind of how I started crashing events to get past security in order to meet these people

that I wanted to be part of. Now, when I was going to school, I went to this private school. And the one thing I will say is the teachers were great and they were like substitute parents to me. So I would go to their houses. I was really close to the teachers. So they were kind of like, you know, substitute parents. And then the entertainment industry became substitute family for me after that. And then eventually I tracked down my, my birth family and have since come to believe that genetics are much stronger than environment because I'm much more like them than I ever was, my adoptive family. Well, so how old were you when you started crashing these, you know, political or not political, the parties? Yeah, I was, I think the first thing I crashed was, um, I think the first thing I crashed was, um, When I was 16, I went to a Jerry Lee Lewis concert.

He's kind of like a rock and roll country-ish type singer. And I only went because I had had a crush on the singer Tom Jones since I was nine years old. And I had read an article that Tom said that that was his favorite performer. So I thought, okay, I'll go to this show because I didn't know who Jerry Lee Lewis was. So I went to the show and it was sold out. And rather than go home, I thought, well, I got to get inside. And that was my first crashing. And I said, I'm here to apply for a job.

And the guy at the door says, oh, okay, we'll go on in and go to the left and go to that office. And so I walked in, I went right, and I sat down on the front row of the auditorium. But that night ended up kind of changing my life because I watched the show. And when the show was over, this man came up to me. He said his name was J.D., the white-haired guy. And he said, would you like to go backstage? And I said, sure, why not? So he took me back to Jerry Lee's dressing room, which really was kind of this makeshift

dressing room with curtains. It was on the back of the stage. And there were a few other people in there. And he, you know, we chit-chatted for two minutes. And then he said, I need to change clothes. You can either wait here or wait outside. And I said, I'll wait outside. Thank you.

And so I went back to the audience, which was completely empty now. And I sat down and this guy. J.D. came out and sat next to me, and he said, Jerry Lee would like to be in your company this evening. And I said, oh, well, I don't want to go out with him. And he goes, really? All the girls want to go out with him? And I said, no. And then he said, well, who would you want to go out with? And he started listing all the sex symbols of the day, you know, John Travolta or Robert Redford, whoever they were. And I was like, no, no. And he said, isn't there anyone? And I said, well, I would like to go with Tom Jones. And he said, well, you can do it.

you know, you're pretty, and you're, you know, he'd build up my confidence. And he said, Ray Lee wanted to go out with you, didn't he? So it just kind of, it made me feel much more confident. I mean, I had very low self-esteem as a kid. I felt super ugly and fat. I was like 10 pounds overweight, most of my childhood. And I certainly, you know, I didn't have highs of esteem. But this guy, like, convinced me. And I said, thank you so much. I'm going to do it. I mean, I literally gave him a hug. And I started running out of the theater. And he said, well don't you want to go back and see jerry lee i said no i'm going to get a date with tom and i ran out and then i started planning that you know getting a date with tom and i went to um

Vegas where tom was performing a year later when i was when i was 17 and um ended up meeting him he was very flirtatious i could tell he was interested i went through lots of shenanigans to kind of get past security so he would be able to meet me i met his mom i mean i spent an entire week staying at Caesars, which is where he was performing. In fact, when I walked in the door, when I first got there, I went up to one of the bellhops and I said, I gave him like 20 bucks or 40 bucks, like very small amount of money. And I said, I need to know what room Tom Jones is staying in, what time he goes to the show and what path he takes to get to it. And the guy took me up and says, is this room? This is the way he goes down this hall. It's at 6.30 or whatever it is.

And so it ended up being correct. And I had had this showgirl costume made, which was ridiculous because I'm five feet tall. So I don't look like a showgirl, but it had feathers and sequins and silver boots. And I positioned myself in the hallway at the right time. And then I just, you know, I heard his voice in the distance with his security guard. I just kind of started walking towards it. And he stopped and he flirted with me. But he never asked me out the whole week.

and so then almost two years later I you stayed there a week I stayed in Vegas for a week yeah I mean not just doing that but I was right it was like a little vacation you know at 17 and I used to travel when I was before I was 18 I used to I went to New York by myself and Chicago and my adoptive dad didn't even know I was gone on I remember my big trip for a week to Chicago in New York he I told my brother but I didn't tell my dad and my brother said he didn't even notice you were gone. So that's how close our family was. So anyway, so then I resumed my attempts and I ended up dating Tom for three years. There's more that happened in Florida. But it was, you know, it was like a Cinderella story for me because I literally went from

feeling really ugly and fat and stupid. I've always felt unintelligent my whole life. I've had a complex about that. And, you know, here's a guy that I've been interested in for 10 years. he was everything i thought he would be in person and um i was totally in love with him and you know so it was it was really kind of amazing and um okay so you you met him at 17 right and then i started going out later you met him again yeah what happened was i went to school at university of florida and gainesville for college and um my best friend in the dorm was from fort lauderdale and she said that Tom is going to be in Fort Lauderdale performing at Sunrise Musical Theater. So we decided to go down and stay with her parents, which is right down the street from the theater.

And I got everything arranged. So I called the theater and, you know, called and said, yes, we need ringside seats for Charlotte Law. She's the winner of the Miss Georgia beauty pageant and she will be in town doing some Maybelene commercials. I mean, the whole thing was a complete lie, right? And the manager goes, yes, ma'am. no problem we'll get them for you and um and then i even found out with hotel tom with that and even got a room at the same hotel just thinking you know at least i'll be in the proximity and i went to the show i ended up going by myself because my friend got sick so she had to stay home but i sat there

he remembered me he had someone come out and get me take me backstage we went to we had dinner we went to a discotheque and that's how it started so yeah and i was almost 19 i was so yeah i was you know, much older by then. So where did he, where did he live? Like did you move? Did you relocate? No, I didn't relocate. I just would travel different cities. I mean, he performed on the road pretty much all the time.

He only spent a couple of months a year at his house in Los Angeles. So he was pretty much always going from city to city. So, you know, I was really not into school much when I started. And I, you know, would travel to see him in various cities. So that's what I did. So, but I was in, in, you know, I was in, Gainesville and then I started meeting other entertainment people as well I crashed a in Atlanta I think I was 17 also I crashed my to get my first movie role and what happened was I was

working at an ice cream parlor called Farrells and I was the person who answered the phone and some man called and said oh yeah I need to talk to Joe or whatever and I said oh I have to take a message because he was like a dishwasher there and so I took this message and the guy I said, yeah, tell him to be at the audition tomorrow at 3 o'clock. And he gave me the address and everything. So I made a copy for myself and I gave the other copy to Joe. And I showed up at the audition. And it was all men in Army uniform.

So I looked completely ridiculous. There was no female except the secretary at the desk. And I walk over the desk and I said, my agent told me to be here. And, of course, I didn't have an agent. And she said, oh, well, that's. that's really weird all the women were already cast and then she looked at like some list and she goes there was somebody who hadn't shown up at the set apparently and she goes do you think you're the party girl i go that must be it she goes well you're late you're supposed to be on the set right now

you better hurry over there and she gave me all the information and i went to wardrobe and hair and i ended up with the part in the movie i ended up with lines i got paid for it and it was pretty cool so and i was just 17 i had to skip school that day it's the only time i ever ditched school was to be in this movie and I got a detention and I didn't even care. What was the movie? It was they went that away and that away starring Tim Conway. It was not a very popular movie, a very small movie. Using a homeless man's identity, he once borrowed nearly $1.5 million just to see if he could.

He is the most interesting man in the world. I don't typically commit crime, but when I do, it's bank fraud. stay greedy my friends support the channel join matthew cox's patreon um so well i have a so okay so that was in that that you were still 17 well 17 when i did the movie thing when i was dating tom i was i he i was dating him from like 18 like 21 but i moved to megas when i was 20 so i went to florida for two years And then I was going to come to L.A. to go to Loyal and Merrimount. And I had like a roommate situation like fell through. So I ended up staying in Las Vegas. I had gone to Vegas for the summer. And I ended up staying in Vegas and going to the University of Nevada, Las Vegas for two years. And then eventually I moved to L.A. How did the how did the Tom Jones relationship end? Just he, he broke up with me. I was devastated. And what had happened, we had had a conversation. like the night before, and he had said, you know, what are you going to do if you get, you know, if you got pregnant? And I said, well, I don't believe in abortion for myself.

And he didn't say anything. And then the next day, his publicist or advanced man, John Moran saw me at Caesars in the lobby area and came over and said, Tom can't see you anymore. I'm really sorry. And please don't call. Don't try to get, you know, don't try to see him. And I was just like in tears devastated. I went into a conference room and I'm a very against violence person, but I got these little empty glasses off of a cart and I was like throwing them against the wall. I was really upset. But after that, like a couple years later, I did see, you know, Tom is a friend. He did ask me out again, but by then I was dating someone else. So, you know, it kind of stayed on friendly terms all these years. But it was really a great

three years and I was really devastated at the breakup. So you went to, anyway, at some point you ended up, you said you went to L.A. or initially you went to Vegas, but then you went to L.A.? I went to Vegas because I've had various experiences in Vegas as a tourist. So like one thing that had happened, which was kind of interesting when I was also 17, I was staying at Caesar's Palace and I had been jogging down the strip. So I have my little shorts on, my tennis shoes, my waist pouch, my hair and a ponytail. I mean, I definitely. look underage. And so I'm passing through Caesar's Palace and this man in his 60s comes up to me and says, I just won $13,000 damling. I'd like to buy you a diamond bracelet, no strings

attached. And I'm like, come on, you know, he takes me over to the gift shop in Caesars and he buys me an $800 diamond bracelet, very, very small diamonds, but I was amazed. Then he said, I want to gamble. Come on, let's go gamble. So he dragged me around the casino and every time he went to chips, he's stuffing him in my waist pouch. And I'm just like, what are you doing? And I'm in like disbelief. And we're being accompanied by the head of security. Cesar's head of security is like accompanying us. So then he says to the security guy, he says, I want to buy her some clothes. Where can I do that? And the guy says, oh, well, there's a clothing store right over there adjacent to the casino. So we head over there, but the security guy goes ahead of us. And so when we enter the

store he's whispering to the sales lady so i figured there was some kind of a kickback deal probably going on and the sales lady tells me to go to the dressing room and says i'll bring you some nice things so she gets all these dresses she shows up and then she like starts yelling at me she goes you're not bringing any of this stuff back you understand you know you could be arrested for gambling as a minor i mean she was like you know really mean and i was like i'm not going to bring it back don't worry. So I walked out the store with $4,000 worth of clothes. And then he said, well, that was really fun. It was really nice meeting you. Take care. I gave me a hug. I said, thank you so much. That was so sweet of you. I went back to my room. I ended up having $7,700 in

money and clothing. I actually cashed. I took the bracelet back and got the money for it. And then like a few days later, I was just going through the hotel late at night. And some guy was doing the slot machines and he said do you want to do the slots with me and I said sure why not so he gives me a bucket of these coins and so I'm doing like one row and he's doing the other row and like an hour later I said well I'm really tired I'm going to sleep and he said well thanks a lot and he gives me a hundred dollar bill so I thought wow if I'm ever poor I'm moving to Las Vegas because people give money away so when I got to and I knew a lot of people by this point because I had gone to Vegas on multiple occasions when I was younger before I moved there. And I'd seen Tom there,

et cetera. And so I knew like, you know, managers and people in the restaurant and I just knew a lot of people, matrives, you know, in various casinos and hotels. And so somebody at Caesar's Palace, one of the, I don't know, he was like one of the vice presidents or something. They have like 50 vice presidents. He said, oh, if you move to Vegas, I'll give you, get you a PR job at the hotel. So I thought, okay, I'll do that for the summer. And because I had a minor in public relations at the University of Florida. So I get to Vegas for my job. I go over to his office to meet with him.

And then I find out he just wants me to have sex with high rollers. Really, that's what he meant by PR. So of course I didn't do it. And then I was supposed to go to California and then that fell through. So I ended up staying in Vegas and I became a chip chatter. And that was the job I invented based on. on the man who gave me all the stuff, which essentially you just walked in a casino and somebody, some guy always comes over you. You immediately say, I'm not a hooker. So they know that.

You set them straight at the beginning. And, you know, they just want people to gamble with them and talk to them. And, you know, you're kind of like a therapist. You're like, you know, and you never leave the casino or the restaurant or the showroom. It's very safe because there are a bazillion security guards in the casinos in Las Vegas. And, um, And that was it. At the end of the evening, they frequently say, you want to come to my room? And you say, I told you I'm not a hooker. I have very strict morals. And they go, oh, yeah, you did tell me that. You're right. And a lot of times they say, well, do you want to gamble with me tomorrow? So I made over $600,000 in two years living in Vegas when I was 20 and 21, which was a heck of a lot of money for somebody so young.

It was really quite amazing. So when I wasn't doing the chip chatting, I was like living the lifestyle, the rich and famous. As I was, like, crashing, you know, going backstage, I got to know lots of entertainers. I was flying here and there. I was buying very expensive clothes and antique furniture and that kind of thing. So it was a really interesting couple of years. And I had other jobs in Vegas. I was a cab driver. I was a backup singer for an Elvis imitator.

And I was even a bodyguard for a prostitute who lived in my apartment complex downstairs. And she was very pissed off that I was making more money than her. I can tell you that. I told her she should be doing chip chatting and not being a prostitute. You were a taxi driver? Yeah, I was a banded cab driver, really. This was before, you know, obviously before Uber or Lyft or anything. But what happened?

I was leaving the Hilton one night. And there were always these long lines of people who had just let out of a show, out of the showroom. And they had to wait a really long time to get a cab. And so I thought, wait a minute, why not just, you know, take people to their hotels for pay? And so I go to the end of the line and I can, I'll say, you know, like I can take three people, 10 bucks each, you know, whatever hotel in the strip and the people would buy.

I'll go, you know, and I put them in my car and drop them off and then go back. So it was another way to make a little money when I lived in Vegas. Yeah, that would be that would be Uber now, right? Exactly. You were Uber before there was Uber. That's right. I didn't even know it was being a bandit cab driver. I didn't know it was illegal back then.

And I just thought I was inventing something. So what happened around that same? What time period was this? This was in 80 and 81 is when I was 20 and 21 years old. So the 80s were very different in Vegas. It was convention people. It was high rollers. It was very different from now, which it's all families and children,

completely different type of flavor. It was very much like a small town. You could drive the strip and there wasn't a lot of traffic. it back then. So when I would drop people off, it was pretty easy. You just go straight to the hotel, drop them off at the front, moved to the next one. And so yeah, so it was, I mean, I would never give up my two years in Vegas. It was just amazing. And as I said, I knew like every entertainer on the strip and I would hang out in dressing rooms. I mean, Wayne Newton's dressing room was the best dressing room because he always had the most interesting people show up. He had

astronauts he had politicians he had kings and queens he had you know actors he had just you name it athletes it just didn't matter he had all these people who just always descended on his dressing room and so i would hang out there and he was kind of always performing somewhere at one of the hotel so i was you know kind of a staple in his dressing room and i knew a lot of obviously his bodyguard and some of the other people that hung around and i would i would be there pretty frequently i mean maybe a couple times a week or something like that. So it was interesting because, you know, I was very young and I'm meeting all these accomplished people who are successful and, you know, asking them, you know, what's the key to success? And, you know, I'm asking them about how to become someone, you know,

who's a successful person in life. And I felt like I was picking up information. I was learning something. I was having these interesting experiences with people that I normally wouldn't have access to. So, yeah, it was really cool. It was really neat. He built some of the nation's largest banks out of an estimated $55 million because $50 million wasn't enough and $60 million seemed excessive. He is the most interesting man in the world. I don't typically commit crimes, but when I do, it's bank fraud.

Stay greedy, my friends. Support the channel. Matthew Cox's Patreon. So what happened to you? Then you ended up in L.A. I came to L.A. And I was a maid with my first job because I had met this guy and his son at one of the pools, you know, one of the resorts in Vegas.

And he had said, if you ever moved to L.A., we need a housekeeper. And you could be a living housekeeper. And so when I moved to L.A., I became their live-in housekeeper for zero pay. but I had a room to stay in and I was a terrible housekeeper by the way and I did that for a very short time and then I started renting a room for $100 a month from this couple in Huntington Beach and then after that I became a nurse for a paraplegic and I lived in a mobile home with this paraplegic and then after that I moved up to the valley and I moved in with a female friend and then we were like victimized by a criminal um which um it's like two in the morning a we we were

we slept in the same bed because she only had one bed in her one bedroom apartment and i always i always slept in my clothes and slept in like shorts and the shirt and um like two in the morning this guy with a um automatic you know semi automatic rifle breaks down the front door breaks down the bedroom door. I wake up and the gun, he's like right over the bed pointing the gun at my roommate's face. And it's so interesting to see what you do when you are under that kind of stress. And because I'm only five feet tall, I know that I can't spend him off or fight, you know, physically. So it's like I go straight into my head trying to figure out how I'm going to outsmart him. And so I just very nonchial, honestly said, well, I'm already up. I might as well

go to the grocery store, put down the covers. I very slowly put on my footflops. I take my purse. I'm already dressed, thank goodness. I just walked right out the door and he doesn't say a word. I walk out the, and I just leave her there, which is terrible. But she gets away. And like a few minutes later, she goes, I have to go to the store with Charlotte. I have to go to the store with her. I got to go. You know, so she runs out and we went and called the police. And it was the number one news story in L.A. that day and all these SWAT team and police officers. And they threw tear gas into the apartment and finally went in and they found out he had killed himself right after we went to call the police. So that was my introduction to the San Fernando Valley.

What was the, why did he kill himself? Who was he? Like what, what was the? He knew my roommate. And I think he probably, we don't really know, but we, I think he probably had a crush on her. And I think he probably thought she was with a guy, you know, another guy. And so when he got in there and saw it was just me, the roommate. I think he just was like, oh, you know, but now he had already broken in. He had the gun. And he wasn't on drugs or alcohol. He had tons of weapons in his truck, apparently, like tons of guns and ammunition. But beyond that, I have no idea. And he left a bunch of money, too. He brought all this money. There was like thousands of dollars that was like left on the dresser. And the, from when they threw the tear gas in, the window was

broken. So there was all this air and the money was like flying around the room, kind of like one of those game shows where you catch the money. It was kind of like that. It was just like going everywhere. It was really bizarre. And I moved out that day. I said, well, see ya. I'm getting my own place. And that's what I did. I moved into a little single apartment in a really bad part of town. And that's where I lived with my dog that I adopted from the animal shelter. So that was. And then also So I had other, you know, then there were very other jobs I had in L.A. that were, you know, were, like I was a go-go dancer, essentially. I worked at one of these strip clubs, but I would never, you know, take off any clothes. I was so, I'm so conservative that I would wear like tights and a leotard and I'd get yelled at by the owner, but I would, you know, be a good dancer.

And that's the only reason I'd be able to keep the job. So I did that for a while. And, and then my adoptive father, you know, my abusive dad, said, you know, if you go back to school, if I hadn't graduated, I had just stopped before I graduated. If he said, if you go back and finish college, I will pay for you to finish college. And I said, great, I'm going to do it. So I went back to school. And then I ended up, you know, continuing on and getting, I got my first bachelor, then a master's. And I went back on another bachelor, another master's, and then got a PhD. So I kind of just stayed in school for a long time after that while I had different jobs from acting. And then, you know, I was doing some professional dancing. And I became a real estate agent. So I think

I know a lot about, you know, real estate and loans and all that if I think you were in that industry. And I was a real estate agent. I still am a real estate agent, technically. And I'm with Berkshire Hathaway. But I was an agent since like 1986, I guess. So I've been. I've been an agent for 35 years. And so that was kind of my main money-making profession. And I was also a private investigator, too, for a while prior to real estate. In L.A.? Yeah, it was a company in Commerce, California, called Proficiency.

And one of my friends from Atlanta who had gone to high school with me, she recommended me because she worked for an insurance company. And mostly it was insurance work that they did. And so I ended up getting the job. I had done a couple of freelance things. Like at Screen Actors Guild, they had a notice up that they were looking for an actress to, you know, help a private investigation company. So I did a couple of other freelance things before going to this company. I worked there maybe for two years.

And as I was getting my real estate license and taking the classes and all that. And then I had my, you know, I wrote my first book. at that time, which was about party crashing, meet the stars, how to meet your favorite celebrity, how to get invited to the Academy Awards. And I had been doing party crashing all along. Oh, the whole time you'd still been doing? I was kind of wondering like, when did you start doing this again? But the whole time. Yeah, no, I was doing it the whole time. And you know, when I was young, it was just kind of fun. And my friends would go to the bar or go bowling. And I'd be like, no, I'd rather hang out with the president or Michael Jackson. I mean, to me,

that was more interesting. And so I had been doing it. And as I got older, I saw, started realizing that, you know, you can lobby for legislation. You can go to an event that's $100,000 a person and, you know, talk to the senator you want to talk to or whoever it is. You can get people signed on to causes. You can, you know, get business partners. I used to sell some of my beaded clothes because I would design clothes at one point. And I would sell them at the events. Carol Channing bought a blouse of mine, for example, when I was at the Grammys. And so, you know, I would get different, you know, connections and sometimes get acting roles or commercials or whatever. So they're just huge benefits to hobnobbing with the rich and famous. And you had to

crash in order to make that happen. So, how are you showing up? Like to me, you show up. You, you present, you know, something that they've sent you with some specialized, you know, document or invitation of some kind that is very specific to you. You show ID, you get in. Like that seems like what's what should be happening at the door, right? I mean, that's not what's happening at the door, though. I mean, it's, you know, I mean, you don't have an ID normally. Normally, you just have an invitation. But it's pretty easy to get in.

There are lots of different ways you can do it. I mean, I wrote a whole book on it. So you can, you know, walk in with a celebrity. They don't question the entourage of a celebrity normally. You can just slip in. You can go in through the kitchen. You can pretend to be an entertainer and dress, really outlandish and they'll let you in a lot of the time.

You can pretend you're in the orchestra and we're all black can get in. You know, there are a lot of different ways you can get into these events. And so I have done probably every one of those ways to get in. And it's been very successful. And, you know, celebrities and media people crash all the time. Regular people don't hardly ever do it. But well-known people do it constantly. They just don't, you know, a lot of people don't want to admit it if they do it

because it makes it seem like they're like, oh, no, I want people to think I'm invited. I'm supposed to be here. They don't want to, I would prefer to get in and then go back to the, you know, take the elevator back down from the VIP room and tell the ordinary person, hey, you can do it too. Let me show you how to do it. And that's kind of what I always did with my book. And I write about some of the party crashing in my memoirs as well. And so, you know, I'd rather help other people not only to meet well-known people, but just

to accomplish their dreams. I mean, maybe you want to become a tech executive and you want to meet Bill Gates because you think he can get you a job and you want to, you know, or maybe you want to get your screenplay to Steven Spielberg or whatever it may be, you know, these techniques can help you because it's really just about how to meet people, how to get past the security to meet the VIP who can hopefully be your friend, be your date, be your business partner, whatever it is. So how did you, the Secret Service one, that like what secrets, what events did, did you crash that were related to the Secret Service? So the Secret Service has got to be like the President or. Yeah, it was the first two times were with Reagan. And I know I wanted to interview Reagan from my book. And I called the White House initially and said I'd like to interview President Reagan. And they laughed.

She said, you can't do that. And they said, he's not even doing interviews for six weeks. And I knew he was in L.A. And I knew his people were staying at the Beverly Hilton Hotel. And I called his press secretary. They said the press secretary is staying at Hilton. And I talked to him and he said, you can't interview him. He also said the same thing.

So I just said, well, I'm just going to go over there and handle this myself. And so I got in the car. I drove to Beverly Hilton. and there were these two guys out front setting up camera equipment and one of them was like I think he was he was like a son of one of the CNN

correspondence and the other was this guy that was a White House photographer named Reggie and I just started chatting with them and becoming their friend and I also knew that President Reagan always went to the Walter Annenberg Estate on New Year's Eve which was like the next night and I knew he always went to that party or that gathers

gathering. So I'm talking to these guys and I said, so what are you guys going to do for New Year's Eve? And they said, oh, we're going to a party. And I said, well, do either of you need a date? And Reggie goes, sure, I could use the date. And then I said, and he said, but it's all the way in Palm Springs. Are you sure you want to go all the way down there? And I say, sure, no problem. And then I said, will the president be there? And he said, yes, he actually will. And so I ended up going down. I got my interview. And it was great. I went to this event. And that was my crash. I mean, I kind of crashed by getting Reggie got me in the door.

That was kind of my crash to interview Reagan. So you crashed a party to interview Ronald Reagan about your How to Crash Party's book? Yeah, basically. Yeah. I wanted to know, like, you know, what famous person he ever admired and that he most enjoyed meeting. And I don't remember what the questions were, but it was those types of questions that went. And to ask them, what do you think the likelihood is somebody could crash this party? Exactly. I didn't have that, but that would have been a good question.

So that was one of the crashes. And then another one was when Senator Kerry was running for president. So I got past security to the green room where everybody was located. So that was kind of an amazing. Because I was like the only non-famous person in the room. And it was, you know, it was like Robert De Niro. you know, Barbara Streisand and Leonardo Caprio and Ben Affleck. I mean, it was literally everybody and me. You know, I really stood out. And then the last time was with Obama. He had a fundraiser at George Clooney's house and it was $40,000 per person. And so I basically got up to the house by pretending to make a pharmaceutical delivery when they stopped me and Secret Service stopped me in my car because they had this street flopped off.

And I had like ponytail holders in this little sack. And I was praying they would not look in the sack because there was nothing pharmaceutical in there. And I said, I have this delivery for a G. Clooney. And they didn't know what to do. They were just like looking around. Like, do we let her go? Do we not?

And finally they said, okay, I guess you can go up. So I went up. I had to park in his driveway because there was nowhere to park. It was filled up with catering trucks and stuff. And so that's how I got into the 40. thousand dollar per person event and um but you know it's funny because in california if you get caught or you get in trouble for party crashing the worst they can do for a first offense it's an infraction it's not even a misdemeanor it's a 75 dollar ticket it's like a parking ticket and then every other

time that you get caught the worst thing they can do to you a 250 dollar ticket that's it infraction so it's like you're thinking like gee a hundred thousand dollars to get in or a 75 $25 ticket. So it's kind of a no-brainer, actually. Right. So how'd your book sell? It did well. It did fine.

The first book was with Ross Books. I did a lot of press on it. So I was on my first show was Oprah, which was a terrible show to be on first because it was such a big show. And I had never been on TV before. So I thought I did a really bad job. But I did Larry King Live. I did a bunch of press.

set it all at myself. My publishing house didn't set any of it up. And it was a lot of fun. I toured the country. I did book signings. And yeah. And that was also the time when I was meeting my birth family. I had tracked down my mom and my dad. And so when I was doing my book signings is when I met, I went to Florida to meet my mom and my grandmother and my two aunts and everybody the first time. So that's kind of a separate story in and of itself is tracking down the birth family. Were you married at this time or this was still? No, I wasn't married.

And I, you know, I've always been like, you know, just hardly ever been interested in any guy. I'm just like very picky. So like if I'm interested in somebody, I'm very focused on him and no one else. And then it could be like five years before I even see another guy I like again after he breaks up because I never broke up. They always broke up with me, you know, after. So I dated like, I guess I've been interested in like six guys in my life, including my husband.

And when I saw my husband, I was much older. I was 39 when we got married. So I was 34 when I met him. And it was through a dating organization. It was one of the brick and mortar organizations called Great Expectations, which is from way back before internet dating. Yeah. And I saw a video of him. They had like videos of all the guys and girls.

you do like a little interview and then would also have a booklet with their pictures and bio information and when I first saw his video I was like already in love with him I made very fast decisions you know and I was just like totally excited about him but I had been through like tons of dates before I met him and I was so burnt out on it I mean very nice guys but I just wasn't interested in them and I had gone up to the women at the front desk and I said you know exactly what I'm looking for and they took me over to the books and they said well this guy and he had like the gold chains he was standing next to the Corvette I was like no that's not what I said I wanted and then the next day I came and the manager was there and I told him what I was looking for he said well we only

have one guy if it's that description I said one guy out of thousands of guys because there were a lot of people in this organization he got this one guy and that's when he showed me my husband's picture and the pictures were kind of like a little questionable, but when I saw the video, I was like ecstatic. And so I picked him and asked him out and he said yes. And, you know, and then, you know, we went through off and on stuff through the years and then eventually he proposed marriage. And, you know, so. Yeah. And this was still, you're still in California? Yeah. I've been in California ever since like 19, right after I left Vegas. So like 1982 or so. So I've been in California. for you all that time. Yeah. So you got married. You had a daughter? I had the daughter

before I was married. Okay. So her father lives in New York. And so she visits. She's actually going back to see him for Thanksgiving. And I had dated him for about a year and a half. And then when I got pregnant, he freaked out. And I wasn't willing to have an abortion. And we had discussed if I got pregnant, but we just kept seeing each other and never resolved it. And so I had her for, and I was raising her on my own. And then like when she was, I don't know, the eight or nine years old, I was sending like every year I'd send pictures and some information to his parents because they were kind of the heads of the family. So I figured they could distribute the information about Kayla to the rest of the family. And so one year when I sent the pictures,

the mother wrote a note back saying, please don't send these anymore. You're upsetting our family. And I was like, excuse me? So I sued for child support. I hadn't asked for child support for all those years. And he was a very wealthy guy with trust funds from a very wealthy family. And so I was so pissed. I said, fine, you're paying child support.

And I was really glad I did it too because he finally cared about meeting her. He never wanted to meet her before. But once he started paying, he was like, well, I want to meet her. I said, great. I want you to meet her. I want her to have a relationship with her dad because he's basically a great guy. I mean, I, you know, and we have a good relationship, friendship, you know. And so, you know, I never had any negative thing to say about him other than the fact that he didn't meet his daughter for like 10 years.

But now, you know, he flies her to New York twice a year. He did for many years. And, you know, she gets along with everybody and his family. And she's accepted and it's great. Okay. Yeah. So, I mean, during this period of time, what are you doing for work? I mean, you're married. Yeah, I was a real estate agent was my main job. That's always been my main money making. But I was, you know, writing books and I was getting my PhD during this time. And so I always had lots of things going on. But for money, I was an agent. And I, I never have qualified for a loan ever because my income ratio, I would just. just doesn't work. So like when I bought my first house, I had, I wasn't an agent yet when I bought

my first house. And I had been renting this apartment. It was super cramped and super, you know, just horrible. And, and so I, you know, I told my friends and my, my evil dad, as I affectionately called him, my adoptive dad, I said, I'm going to buy, I want to buy a house. And everybody's like, oh, you're going to lose it. Don't do it, et cetera. And so what happened was I opened this antique shop because when my mom died, I inherited the furniture. I got no money, but I inherited all the junk, you know, like the broken toaster and the sofa and my adoptive dad just kind of gave me this stuff. So I opened an antique shop to sell all the stuff. And I got enough money for a down payment for a no qualifying loan that they had them back in those days at good rates. And so I, you know,

I bought this house for $138,000 in Van Nuys, California, not. the greatest neighborhood, but it was four bedrooms. And then there was an area that I could make into a guest unit. So I rented out the guest unit for $500. And then my mortgage tax and insurance all together was $300 a month. And the apartment I was living in was $650 a month. So to me, it was like stupid if I didn't buy the house. But everybody was like, don't buy it, don't buy it. So I bought it. And that's where I started raising Kayla. And then when I moved out, I started kind of buying other property here and there, but I was never like a wealthy landlord. I was just like a small landlord. So I have a couple of rentals now and, you know, just kind of make it from month to

month because I've never been a money-oriented person. It's more about trying to do things to, you know, make the world better, to be an opinion person to, you know, write a book or try to write an op-ed or, you know, there are other things that I always felt were more important. So, yeah so that's what happened i moved out and bought a house in sherman oaks and then yeah then my husband came and we lived in sherman oaks for a little while in a very small house it was like 1,200 square feet very tight and um and then kind of moved on from there okay so what what happened with the uh the hunter more um the situation this is when your your daughter's like and she's teenager she's what 15 16 years old

actually 24 she was she was yeah so she was so she had been taking some pictures in her room and she was living with me we were living in woolen hills at the time and um she was taking pictures in her room and she took a one topless picture and a lot of other cutesy shots and her

phone got full so she sent them to her email to save them and then she was hacked and then after getting hacked her topless picture showed up on Hunter Moore's website Is Anyone Up.com along with her name, her city, and her social media link. And she was at her waitress job when she found out and she was just freaked out and felt violated and exposed and living tears.

And she called me. And I had never heard of revenge porn before. So I look at the website. I see the pictures. They had several pictures of her, but one was topless. The others were like her on the red carpet and different pictures of her. And, you know, I knew we had to get it down because I know what happens on the internet, things just, you know. When was this? What year?

This was in, well, it was like 10 years ago. So it was in 2012 is when it happened. Okay. So it was 2012. It was January 2012, actually, is when it happened. And so first, Kayla and I sent an email to Hunter asking him to remove the picture, which I knew he wasn't going to do. because I had I was investigating him so I could kind of see what he was saying to other people which is right of content yeah it wasn't hard to figure out his character exactly so and then

I was I started contacting people associated with him like his publicist and his attorney and his internet security company and even tried to call his mom because I thought she could probably do something but I found her former workplace but she didn't live there anymore I work there anymore. So I talked to her associates, but it got back to Hunter because he posted on Twitter, somebody just called my mom's workplace. You know, she thinks it's really funny, ha ha, or something. So I did that. We went to the Los Angeles Police Department and met with this middle-aged female detective who said to Kayla, why would you take a picture like this if you didn't want it on the internet? And I said, you know, you're a victim blaming. And I said,

if she had taken a Polaroid and stuck it in the dresser drawer and someone broke in and stole the picture, would you blame her or would you do your job and arrest the criminal? And she was, you know, just sighed and gave me a look and went to get forms. And then I told Kayla, we called the FBI. And I did call the FBI when I got home. And they wanted me originally just to file a report online, which I figured was because they're just so busy. And so I said, I see you help Scarlett Johansson when she gets hacked, but you don't help the average person. And they sighed. And then they said, you know, transferred me to a detective.

And that person told me there'd be three agents coming to my house later in the month. And so, and then in the meantime, I was curious about the hacking scheme. I thought there was one. Because your daughter, she had no idea how he had gotten these pictures, right? Right. Never sent it to anybody. And she never would have sent it to anyone. And she also found one of her female friends on the site. And she called her and this girl said, I was hacked. The only person who had my picture is my husband. She was like newly married.

And so I thought, well, this is really weird. Here's this website. I only know two people on it. And they were both hacked. So I started doing a survey of my own to find out how people got on that site. And so I called 40 people who had been posted within the two-week period that Kayla was posted. and it was very hard because I didn't want to use the computer or any sort of electronics because I was scared that the hacker might be on there.

So everything had to be done by phone. And it was really hard. So I'd have like sometimes the person's first and last name and I'd have their city. And then I'd call people with the same last name and say, are you related to this person? Can you have them call me? So it was very roundabout. But by the end of my study, I found out that 40% of them said they've been half. And we knew that it was the same hacker in some cases as Kayla had because the hacker was leaving behind this email address, right?

So I gave all that information to the FBI when they showed up. And it was like a 12-inch file of all this data and phone numbers for victims and emails and all sorts of information. And they originally, when they came, said they didn't think they'd be able to take the case because they said they normally only take cases that involve. large losses of money and we didn't have that and they also said it takes over a year to complete an investigation and but luckily they took the case and it started plugging along and and I got thin Kayla's picture came down I got Kayla's picture down actually my husband kind of did first I got it down through black lotus communications and this president named Jeffrey Lyon and they were the cybersecurity for Hunter's website and I talked to him and I said there's hacking scheme and so he

blocked Kayla's page but Hunter being as malicious as he was he went around the block and created a whole new page for Kayla so then I talked to Jeffrey and he said yeah he went around the block but we're going to try blocking the photos and see if that works and so in the meantime my husband had finally agreed to help and he talked to Hunter's attorney and because it's it was an attorney talking to an attorney, the attorney was able to get Hunter to take Kayla's picture down. But of course, all the other victims are still up there. And so, I mean, I got to get those down. And I knew it was a cause at this point. I was like, we have no legislation on this. This is crazy. All these people are being victimized. So I knew there was a lot of work ahead,

not only helping them, but getting the site down, trying to get laws passed. I mean, I just knew I had a long road ahead and like I can get I can get sent you know like voluntarily giving someone the photos and putting them up and everything but I mean the big deal is that they're being stolen you know that they're there's a it's an organized hacking scheme to acquire photos and put them up and then the people complain and he won't take them down like I mean it it it seems like he would have been if he had been smart he'd have just anybody who complained he'd have just taken taking the photos down and he could have avoided all this. but his arrogance has just derailed his entire little enterprise that he had going.

Right. If he had just tried, if he had just worked with you and just taking that, I mean, obviously, he shouldn't have been breaking the law to begin with, but breaking the law and being an asshole about it is not the way to go. That's true. You know, I think that it's also a problem just posting people's images non-consensually. So, I mean, I felt very strongly that that's not. not something that should be legal.

And even though it was really, it was copyright violation. So he actually was breaking the law even before the hacking because you're supposed to take it down within 72 hours per the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. And he was not taking photos down. So he was already breaking the law, but it's usually a civil suit with that particular law. But you can sue for $250,000 per photo. So you could civilly get quite a big amount of money, except Hunter Moore had no money. So he didn't care about that.

civil suits. Yeah, he lives with his mother. Exactly. And pretends to have money. Exactly. Exactly. So his attorney had said he had to take the, he told me that he's going to have to take the site down if he's under investigation because they're going to use it against him. And that's exactly what they were doing. In the meantime, this other guy, James McGivney, also wanted to get the site down. So he bought the domain, the is anyone up.com and had it directed to his website. And that brought the site. down. But of course, we were worried that he was going to just repost it under a different domain because, and then he started threatening to do that and said he was going to bring it

back under huntermore.tv, but he was going to make it worse because he was not only going to put all the same original content up, but he was going to put the home address of victims with driving directions on how to get to their houses. And, you know, during all this time, you know, I have come out as his enemy. I mean, I have accused him of hacking publicly, his family, his followers who were, you know, they were the children. He was the father. They would say, I will kill for you, father. What do you want me to do? All these devoted people in his soul were coming after me. So I was getting death threats. I was getting computer viruses and even had a stalker come to my house. So it was like crazy through the roof, crazy. And so when he claimed he was going to bring

the site back, I just. decided to put his home address on Twitter. So everything went ballistic when I did that. And Hunter made threats against me and his followers made even more threats against me. And that's when Anonymous came to my rescue. You know, the underground group Anonymous of the white hats. So then I got contacted by one of them who said, don't worry, we're going to protect you. We're going after him tomorrow.

And we're going to docks him. And they ended up apparently making him officially dead. in the state of California for a month and sent him like 200 dildos and did all these things. So he was very quiet after that. He was like super afraid of anonymous. It was like, you didn't hear anything from him once Anonymous came after him. So yeah, they came to the rescue and eventually the FBI raided and then arrested. And he was originally looking at 42 years in prison and so was the hacker.

But he did a plea deal and got, you know, got two and a half. have years, but he actually didn't serve that much time. And he was, you know, in pretty low security. I understand the place in Texas was kind of more like a camp where the so-called inmates could walk up to the store by themselves, get what they want, and come back. So, you know, and I think a lot of this was alcohol rehab type centers. So anyway, but he's out. He's back on certain social media sites and making racist comments and anti-gay comments and sexist comments. And not doing any revenge porn to my knowledge. But anyway, after all this happened, I started meeting with legislators to try to get

laws passed. And we have laws now in 48 states. And we're trying to get a federal law passed. We've had a lot of trouble with that, but we're working on that. Yeah. I think Dan, Dan, no, not, I don't think I know. I know Dan interviewed him. Oh, yeah.

He did a couple times, like two or three times. Yeah. And Dan and I talked about, I actually did a, I'm trying to think is that. the one where that must have been the video that I did with Dan where your name came up. Do you know who else contacted me? Who? Who was the girl or the woman that was helping run his site? Oh, Amanda.

Amanda. Yeah. Right. She contacted me. Yeah. Yeah, she contacted me too a while back. And we had a conversation on the phone. So, yeah.

Yeah. I asked her if she wanted to be interviewed. She, you know. didn't. Okay. Just wanted to tell me that some of the things that Dan said were inaccurate. And I was like, well, then come on the show. Like what's, you know. Right. I'm not trying to make. I and honestly, I don't, I don't know. You know, the problem is, and I'm sure you, you know, having been in articles and having written a book and having been on television, you know, we seldomly see ourselves the way we are or the way other people see us, whether it's true or not. And so anytime somebody says something about you, you know, you're typically immediately offensive. And I don't know that Dan was trying to be offensive, but I'm often offensive to people just because I'm just saying what I think. And I'm not thinking that that's an offensive thing that I'm saying. Right.

But. Well, I do remember one thing he said is he said, which is complete lie. Because, you know, my husband is 20 years older than me. and i always liked older guys i mean i just have always liked older guys right he said oh she just married him for his money which is completely not true i mean my husband was renting a room in a house for a hundred dollars a month when i met him he had no property nothing i had several rental houses when i met you know it was just completely not true and that was you know a lie because he didn't even ask me about my personal life or my husband probably just it's an assumption on his part

Yeah, but it's a sexist assumption that, oh, some young woman, obviously, she's just after his money and then he's just looking for a trophy for, you know, that's like a sexist assumption that society makes, you know. I understand. I'm, I'm just saying, you know, it's probably just an assumption, but, but let's say, even if it were remotely true, not that it is, you would have been offended. Even if it was, even if you could see it that way, you would be, like, when people have described me or like, I'll get offended, initially. when I would be in newspapers or articles, I was always super offensive, offended by things that were being said. But then the more, as time went on and I read more and I started writing, I was like, well, how else were they going to say it? You know, not that what he said, because he was clearly wrong, but I'm saying a lot of times it's hard to see yourself, even how you really are. People would describe me as a con man or, you know, a master criminal or frost. I was always get offended. And I'd go, and I had to think about it, go, bro, you're

ripping off banks and you're committing, you're running scams. Like, how else are they going to describe you? You know, oh, God, well, if you don't want people to describe you as a scumbag, we'll stop being a scumbag. Right. You know? So, anyway, I, so I'm just saying that, like, I would love to interview, you know, Hunter. He would never be interviewed. But then I think there was a lot of things that came out of that interview where Dan was, you know, absolutely right. Like, Like this guy, he has, does not seem to have the ability to take responsibility and say, hey, that was a scumbag mood, you know, move. I, you know, and try and look into why he was behaving that way.

Instead, he's just, he's just absolutely unwilling to backpedal. He tries to say the right thing. Like, I've seen some interviews and he'll try and say the right thing and then immediately say something that contradicts it. And it's like you, you know, why, why you just, you know, look at it and realize that that was not the way to behave and apologize. And typically, if you're honest about things and apologize, people forgive you. That's right. People want to forgive you.

If you're genuine, the problem is people can tell whether you're genuine or not. And so you can try and fake it. And they might, they might be like, okay, but deep down they know. know, like, intuition is a motherfire. Like, you have to admit, like, you know, your daughter will come in and say, hi, how are you doing and walk to her room, but you know something's wrong. Nothing happened. She did the same thing she always does, but for some reason, you know, whether, you know,

people say a mother's intuition, but it's just intuition in general. You know when something's wrong with your husband, with your daughter, with a boyfriend, a girlfriend like every time I have ever you know cheated on someone or been cheated on they always knew they always knew before they had evidence they just felt it

and that's just intuition and it's the same thing like it with Hunter even though he's trying to say the right things he doesn't genuinely feel that way yeah you can just feel it people know right well I he'd do differently his jacket up 10 times harder and oh yeah that was his thing Everybody except himself. He blames his attorney. He blames the hacker. Probably blames me. And yeah, he has no remorse whatsoever. So the interviews are boring, though. Honestly, you really don't want to interview him. I mean, I watched, it was grueling to get through those interviews. I was just like so bored. I was like falling asleep going, I don't know why anybody would want to interview him because he has nothing to say. It's just like the same old, same old, you know. That's the thing is that to me, like, if he was going to come on and just say the same thing, like, like I don't want to.

You know, like I don't want to hear how, you know, you go 10 times harder and you're the man and, you know, was he, God, there's just some, he's just, you know, he really is like a 13 year old boy. Mm-hmm. I mean, I guess he hasn't grown up. That's the main reason I wanted him to go to prison is I thought he'll grow up and he'll stop behaving this way. And he'll get a different mindset. He'll mature. But he didn't mature. I mean, he's, what, 36 years old now?

It's really surprising. And, you know, it's such bad PR for him to act the way he is. I mean, you're right. People, a certain segment of the population would forgive him if he would sincerely apologize. And then he would have some people who actually liked him, you know, authentic. Genuinely. Yeah. So it's really amazing to me that he doesn't see how it's bad PR at the very least, you know. Well, you were definitely, I just remember watching it and thinking, well, this woman is this dude's the worst nightmare. Like, he just crossed the wrong person.

It's funny because I wrote a book about a guy and his brother was counterfeit. Well, no, he was counterfeiting credit cards. His brother was running up, using the credit cards. And typically, you get an alert. Someone used your credit card. They shut the credit card down. They send you the money back. Fine.

You know, no harm, no foul. And he had been doing this for days. He'd run up. I forget what it was. It wasn't a lot. it was maybe $7,000 or $8,000 for over a course of a day, he'd run up on this one credit card. But when the woman was notified, the bank told her, don't worry, we're going to pay, you don't have to pay for it. We're going to reimburse it and it's fine.

But she wouldn't accept that. She was like, no, no, where was it used? That targets down the street. Where's the local police station? Let me call. She makes the officers meet her there. look at the camera follow him back to his car get his tag number tracks him back to it to his apartment he's only lives down the street goes there and I just remember and I was reading I was in

prison I was reading the police report and I was like this woman is this guy's worst nightmare like I think that's great I love that it was great and you know this guy was so he was so sharp that the police officer knocked on the door open the door and there's all these Target bags and all the stuff that he is a list of it's all right there. And he's like, yes. And he's like, I have a black and white photo of you from the security. Like, are you so and so? Yes. Why are you here? He's like, yeah. Okay. Well, here's why. That's great. I love that. But it's just your story. That, that's just the, the documentary, the interview with you just totally reminded me of that. But so, so what are you doing now? You're still in just, you're, you're, you're doing

you're just you're a real estate agent you own some property or that's still what's going on or are you doing yeah i mean i'm technically still an agent with berkshire halfway um i haven't been doing too much real estate lately because i've been doing a lot of interviews and i'm working on a couple of books so i'm again doing lots of other things but yeah and i um counsel victims i've talked to over 500 victims in the past 10 years and so people call me with you know situations um It's been weird lately because ever since the documentary, I'm getting people contacting me saying nothing to do with revenge porn. They're saying like, my grandmother's been missing for three months. Can you find her for me?

I mean, you wouldn't believe the calls I get that, oh, I lost custody of my kids. Can you get them back for me? And so people somehow think I have the ability to do all sorts of things that I have no experience in. But I have been talking to victims when possible and trying to give them, you know, clues as to what they can. do. And we have a hotline in the United States as the Cyber Civil Rights Initiative. And then the Cyber Civil Rights Legal Project have attorneys all over the country who will help victims for free. So that's a good resource. If someone wants an attorney, they can just do a Google search on that and try to find somebody that will take their case if they're in that situation.

Okay. What are the books you're working on? I'm working on a book. The first one is an academic book. called Omniocracy, which is about a government with representation for all living beings. So it's a very much a philosophy book about animal advocacy and having love and respect for all living beings and, you know, as being of equal value and worthy of equal consideration to humans. And then the other book is a book about Baruch Spinoza. And he was a 17th century philosopher. So it's kind of a nonfiction novel based on his life.

and, you know, a lot of activity. He was a heretic, you know, because he was, he didn't agree with the church. And he had these radical views and their view it was radical. Today, it wouldn't be considered radical at all. So he was, you know, ousted from the synagogue. He was actually Jewish, but he was ousted from the synagogue and excommunicated. And people tried to kill him. And the authorities were after him.

And, you know, and this was during the witch. burning and all that going on. So I'm doing also a book on that. So those are two of the main projects that I'm, and then I have a screenplay I just finished also. So I'm just working on different writing projects as well as, you know, a little bit of real estate here and there. Okay.

Well, can you think of anything else you want to talk about or go over? No, I mean, it's, no, that's fine. I mean. whatever you say you're the host whatever you say i can't think of anything else um so you lived in Florida and you were in Atlanta right are you from Florida no I'm from I'm from Tampa Florida and I lived here until I mean I was born in Tampa and I you know in 2000 and late 2003 the FBI showed up and wanted to arrest me and I wasn't super excited about that so I went on the run for three years. And I was caught in late 2006. And then I went to prison for 13 years.

Wow. And I got out three years ago and kind of, you know, tried to kind of reboot my life. Uh-huh. You know, while I was in prison, I wrote, gosh, a couple dozen synopsies, true crime synopsies, you know, just short stories, you know, between nine, probably six or seven thousand and maybe 12, 15,000 worth, you know. And I've, seven of those I turned into books. Oh, wow. That's great. So, you know, and I made use of your time in prison. Yeah, I did. I option the life rights of several of the my fellow inmates, got some guys in Rolling Stone magazine. That one's been optioned like four times. Got a book deal like from Skyhorse publishing. But then when I got out, I just, I just self-published.

you know it's honestly i make so much more money self-publishing than i do a lot of times you can yeah and a lot of the things don't really push your book so you kind of have to do all the yourself if you're doing it all if you're doing it anyway exactly right so do i want to make a dollar 15 a book or do you want to make 650 a book right you know so um and you know because of the because i i because of my the youtube channel you know people buy the books constantly like i don't actually ever talk about the books really but just people tend to look into me and my name's out there so you know the the books are constantly selling and and i'm always working on stuff and i've got a couple of the books a couple of the stories have been obviously well a couple it's like four five

of them have been option but but some of them are being turned into documentaries and um you know that's And, you know, it's such a long process. Yeah. Well, I, you know, I have, you might be interested, actually, in the story of my grandfather because I have, in addition to my two memoirs, Rebel and High Heels and Undercover Deputon, I wrote a book called Devil in the Basement. And so when I tracked down my birth family, I found out my grandfather had been killed by a devil worshiper in 1948.

And it's a super amazing story. So I wrote a book about that called Devil in the Basement. And he did it was like double murder. suicide, set off two bombs. It was like crazy in this small town in West Virginia. And my grandfather was also Italian. So he was the victim of prejudice because the prejudice against Italians was horrible back in the 1930s and 1940s. In fact, the largest lynching ever in the United States was not against African Americans. It was against Italians. 11 people killed at one time. And so my grandfather was kicked out of two law offices. He was an attorney. He had risen up

from poverty and his brothers and sisters were like in the coal mines and all these menial jobs but he became an attorney and he was kicked out for being Italian and then he finally moved to kind of the wealthier side of town you know the upper middle income side of town and the CCNR said no Italians no blacks no you know whatever and he was kicked out of his house and the KKK sent a letter saying you know basically with a little clipping of a family they had set a house on fire in California and the whole family had died and they sent this little clipping with the letter. And so he moved his family back to the poor side of town. And then after that, he was killed by a devil worshiper,

a guy who lived like two blocks away from the house where he moved. And it's really an amazing story. But that is part of my natural family that I found. Did you research this whole thing? It took me five years. I interviewed over 100 people. I went back to West Virginia a couple of times. I got pictures. I got pictures of a gun. He set off these bombs in his basement. So I have pictures of the, you know, the damaged basement, which they never repaired. He carved hell's half acre into his property and deeded it to the devil. He named his boat, Hell's a Poppin. He had a life-sized satanic doll, which is really quite amazing because there were only two other life-sized satanic dolls prior to him in the history of the world that I could find. And the first one was this.

this woman named Helen Duncan in England who had a doll named Peggy and she would do seances with Peggy and she got a lot of press so he might have heard of her and then there was another guy who was only three hours away who is reportedly started the first satanic coven and his name was Dr. Herbert Sloan and he had a life-sized doll and he was very into his it was April Bell I believe her name and he was like always talking to his doll and saying And she communicated with him. And so I believe that it's possible that Ernie, the guy that killed my grandfather, knew Herbert Sloan. He certainly knew of the other dolls because he made this very creepy, life-sized doll.

And it was on the front page in the newspapers back then. It was like, it's like really creepy. So it's a really cool story. And I met relatives of, you know, I talked to his relatives on the phone. I met relatives of his wife who he had killed and, you know, other people. in the town is his wife who the Satan worshipper had killed his wife also he had been beating his wife and then he ended up killing her after he killed well actually before he killed my grandfather he killed his wife and then he tried to kill himself but he failed and um at first he failed so they

took him to the hospital and then my grandfather's younger brother who was just really like freaked out and angry got a gun and went to the hospital to kill the devil worshipper and he was runs in there, you know, waving is gone and everybody's scared and hiding. And then he like jumps over the counter and where is he? And he runs to the room. And luckily, the devil worshiper had died like a few minutes before because otherwise, John would have been arrested. I mean, his whole life would have been ruined because he shocked this guy. So that's that story. And then my, his sister, Rose, same family. There were like nine kids. So there are lots of, a lot of kids in that big Italian family, Rose was dating. She was the mistress of one of the top Detroit

mobsters, Billy Jack, Jackaloney. And so she was dating him. And he is the person who the FBI say probably killed Jimmy Hoffa. I mean, to this day, he's the number one suspect. So I have like a sub-story about Rose and Billy Jack in the story as well. So it's really an amazing story. and that was something, you know, and I learned I was Italian, which I thought was really cool. I was very proud of my Italian blood. And I found out, you know, a lot of things that in my family are very, you know, my birth family are very similar to me. You know, my birth mom, my birth, dad. I have a brother and sister.

They didn't even know they had a sibling until like maybe eight years ago I met them for the first time. So, you know, I have this whole new family. So, you know, I used to recruit people to be family members. but now I have my birth family. And I talk to my birth mom probably like every other day or every three days on the phone. So we have a pretty close relationship. And I see her, you know, she flies out and that kind of thing.

Yeah. Wow. Okay. So yeah. Yeah. It's I was going to say I have the website that I have. I have all, well, most of the short true crime stories on the website. and then the books I have on.

Yeah, that's really cool. I mean, it sounds like you've had great success with all of your writing. So I congratulate you. That's fabulous. It's very hard getting things options and, you know, all of this. It's not that easy. So I think that's fabulous that you've accomplished all of that. Well, I'm just trying to think, like, if you scale those down, you know, if you ever want to scale down any of the true stories into a very short, you know, version, you could always put it on.

I could always post it on my website. So if you want to take a look at it, it's called inside truecrime.com. Okay. So, you know, if you want to, and it's funny too because it's funny how often, even though there's a book or somebody will contact me or producer or something, I just send them to the website because, like, I know they're not going to read a 300-page book. Right. But they will read, you know, what amounts to a 15-page article or 10- or 15-page article,

which is, you know, they're whatever, 9,000 words. Right. I can ask them to read 90,000, but they'll read nine. Listen, I've gone so far to make it easy for producers. I've even made, had every one of the stories on the website is narrated. Oh. Because it's like, hey, you can, it takes 45 minutes or it takes an hour. You can listen to it on your way to work. Right. Like I know. I try and put pictures up so that I let them know, hey, look, you know, and everybody's super handsome or, you know, like. Very flashy story. Like, but none of my stories really have any murders or anything because I've, I don't know why I just have a kind of, well, they do, but none of my lead characters have murders. You know, maybe there may be a murder involved in the story, but they never are the actual murder. Right. But I was going to say yours is, you know, that's one of those things that you can researching an older story like that.

Like it really can take, especially if you shorten it, you have to eliminate. certain storylines and simplify things. And you can really shape that story, you know, and, you know, being a writer, you know that, like you could write your story as being, you know, this adventure. You could write another one as a love story. You could write everybody's got multiple memoirs inside of them. I agree. Yeah.

You know, totally agree. And you learn a lot about yourself, too, when you write a memoir. You really do kind of like come to realizations that you didn't think about before. And so it's really kind of really helps your life. And I would encourage everybody to write at least one memoir. Yeah, definitely. I definitely think writing in general helps you think, helps you learn how to think strategically. And definitely, definitely writing helps you because, you know, it's the first time I think I was in prison and ever kind of did, you know, self, you know, inflection, you know, really looked at myself and said, hey, you know, you've made some major mistakes.

Like, you kind of ours come back, bro. like that was what were you thinking like you knew better than that you know and i don't think that those are things i ever thought about before and and never would have yeah had i not forced myself to sit down and write a memoir and then suddenly all those things that mean things that people had said about me were like uh yeah he he was pretty much right on that he he hit that on the head yeah so but um anyway listen i i appreciate you talking with me yes i enjoyed it thank you Thanks for having you on the show. Sure, no problem.

If you want to email me any links to your stories, do that. And I'll put those in the description. Okay. And, you know, like this little interaction, like they're not going to cut out. He'll leave this. So anybody who wants to, you know, look up any of your books and buy them on Amazon, I'm sure they're all on Amazon, right? Yeah, they are.

You know, buy them on Amazon. You know, I'll have the links in the description. description. And yeah, that's it. I appreciate it. Thanks a lot. Good job with Hunter Moore. Thank you. And I appreciate you coming on. Thanks. I appreciate it. Hey, I appreciate you guys watching. And if you like the video, do me a favor and hit the subscribe button, hit the bell so you get notified of videos like this. Leave me a comment in the comment section. Also, if you want to join my Patreon, the Patreon will be in the

description. I will have all of Charlotte Law's links to her books. And I appreciate it. Share the video. And thank you very much for checking it out. I will see you. And yeah, that's it. So then I do this and I hit.